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View Full Version : Philly Police Harass, Threaten to Shoot Man Legally Carrying Gun


VCURamFan
05-17-2011, 03:43 AM
Absolutely unreal...

A story in today's Philadelphia Daily News shows why it's so important that citizens be allowed to videotape cops - it can be citizens' only way to fight back against police abuse of power.

This incident happened several weeks ago in Philadelphia to Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker who carries a gun on his hip at all times for self defense. He got the gun after several friends were mugged.

But he didn't count on attacks by police:

On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?"

Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him.
What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.

"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip.

"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."

Fiorino was right. It was perfectly legal to carry the gun. But that didn't matter to the cop:

Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees.

"Excuse me?" Fiorino said.

"Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said.

"Sir," Fiorino replied, "I'm more than happy to stand here -"

"If you make a move, I'm going to f------ shoot you," Dougherty snapped. "I'm telling you right now, you make a move, and you're going down!"

"Is this necessary?" Fiorino said.

It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty's calls for backup.

Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon.

"You f------ come here looking for f------ problems? Where do you live?" yelled one officer.

"I'm sorry, gentlemen," Fiorino said. "If I'm under arrest, I have nothing left to say."

"F------ a------, shut the f--- up!" the cop hollered.

The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives.

Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up.

When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go.
But only temporarily. Fiorino posted the audio recordings on youtube, and now they are harassing him again:

A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July.

If one listens to the audiotapes, it's hard to imagine how a reasonable person could charge Fiorino (and not the cops) for disorderly conduct.

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 03:51 AM
haven't listened to it..

but...

I understand the cops reaction...now if just MORE people were like this guy.. they would have to be more understanding...

Where the guy "messed up" was here...

"Sir," Fiorino replied, "I'm more than happy to stand here -"

He should have just done what the cop asked.. the cop was protecting himself.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-17-2011, 07:56 AM
The cop needs to learn the law and how to behave in a professional manner!

County Mike
05-17-2011, 12:14 PM
The cop needs to learn the law and how to behave in a professional manner!

100% True

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 12:19 PM
Law or not.. seeing someone walk down the street with a pistol on their hip.. they will react accordingly...

Who would you feel walking up to someone you didn't know and they had a gun on their hip... would you leave yours in the holster??

An open carry policy... like my state has.. is double delt... because you can't carry a gun on city property.. guess who owns the sidewalks....

I just carry conceled anyways... I would rather get in trouble for carry conceled... than have needed it.. and not had it...

""Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" sounds civil to me... granted.. apparently it's not correct...

Cops says.. get down on your knees... guy says "nope I'll stand"....and spirals from there..

That's where the guy messed up.. cop doing his job.. investigating a guy with a gun...what do you expect the cop to do walk up to him and smile.. "hey whath's up with the gun?"... sure that could be done.. but what if the guy is a nut job.. ?? And given that this doesn't seem to happen a lot in Philly.. maybe he is a nut job.. for trying to bring that kind of heat on himself....


"...Oh.. I think I will walk down to the AutoZone.... buy some stuff..."... Most places around here have signs up.. "no firearms".. If Philly was like that.. just where did this guy think he was going to store his gun??

Dethbob
05-17-2011, 02:49 PM
Who would you feel walking up to someone you didn't know and they had a gun on their hip... would you leave yours in the holster??

What do you mean? Would you throw down on someone for having a holstered, that is not threatening you, gun?

""Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" sounds civil to me... granted.. apparently it's not correct...

Pulling a gun on someone who is obeying the law and is not a threat is not only not civil, it is not legal. The cops should have enough to do enforcing the law, if they have lots of free time to spend enforcing ‘stuff I don’t like’ and making sure the locals are cowering properly, I’m sure something can be done about that.

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 03:04 PM
What do you mean? Would you throw down on someone for having a holstered, that is not threatening you, gun?

look at it this way.. 1000s of people around.. only one openly carrying a gun.. a cop doesn't expect to see this.. so no.. they aren't going to act the same if they are jaywalking...



Pulling a gun on someone who is obeying the law and is not a threat is not only not civil, it is not legal. The cops should have enough to do enforcing the law, if they have lots of free time to spend enforcing ‘stuff I don’t like’ and making sure the locals are cowering properly, I’m sure something can be done about that.

not 100% correct... this was a cop.. who pulled his gun on someone carrying a weapon.. no clue as to this persons ability or mental status.. or history.. or anything.. but out of ALL the people that the cop saw that day.. I wonder how many non-cops.. were carrying a gun on their hip.. What did you expect him to do..."hey buddy... what's with the gun??" If the guy was looking for trouble.. he found it..

This person was out and about looking for to make some trouble.. why do you think he was recording the conversation?? The bozo.. walked out of his house with a gun on his hip... sure legal.. he didn't think he would get hasseled by someone??

My guess.. he is looking for his 15 minutes.. or a payday...

As far as the cops actions..

walked into a situation.. got scared.. jacked up with adrenaline ... and still didn't shoot the guy... "nice job"... the cop says drop to your knees.. he didn't.. ok.. think about this.. you are a cop.. you tell this guy with a gun to get down.. he doesn't want to.. what would go through YOUR mind...

Personally I think Fiorino was pretty damn stupid..

as far as cowering locals .. if you really think that's what the police do.. your mistaken.

County Mike
05-17-2011, 03:09 PM
I'm OK with them questioning the guy. I'm even OK with them pulling a gun on him to ensure their own safety during the questioning. However, a little more calm would have been good for all parties involved. Sounds to me like the cop was too scared to act rationally.

Throwing around all the swear words, calling the guy a "f... a..hole" was over the top for someone who was responding in a calm, rational manner.

Dethbob
05-17-2011, 03:33 PM
This person was out and about looking for to make some trouble.. why do you think he was recording the conversation?? The bozo.. walked out of his house with a gun on his hip... sure legal.. he didn't think he would get hasseled by someone??

If he knew that doing something perfectly legal would draw an illegal overreaction from the police, then he was doing a public service by doing it and pointing out a huge problem. Trying to fix something is not 'making trouble', even if some would rather tolerate injustice than risk a scene.

as far as cowering locals .. if you really think that's what the police do.. your mistaken.

The problem is, that is EXACTLY what they were doing.

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 03:54 PM
If he knew that doing something perfectly legal would draw an illegal overreaction from the police, then he was doing a public service by doing it and pointing out a huge problem. Trying to fix something is not 'making trouble', even if some would rather tolerate injustice than risk a scene.

The cops reaction was not illegal.. don't know where you are getting that.. and given the circumstances.. I don't think it was such an over reaction..

Instead of trying to provoke attention .. I would try to fix something without the risk of getting shot by an overzealous cop...

And what was this guy exactly trying to fix? Nothing.. just trying to draw attention..

That cops can get scared when put in a sitution that they don't know everything.. just like people.. ?? What do you think happens every single time a cop pulls someone over..



The problem is, that is EXACTLY what they were doing.

ermm.. no.. the cops were dealing with an unknown person (it seems).. who for some reason was walking around with a gun on his hip.. I would want to know why also.. and again.. where did he plan on storing his gun when he went into the store??? It just sounds like a setup.. and it was one local.. that was being dumb... not "the locals".

Didn't seem like the goofball with the gun on his hip was cowering.. seems to me like he knew exactly how to respond to ensure that he didn't get shot.. good for him.. I hope his rehearsals helped him..

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 03:59 PM
But only temporarily. Fiorino posted the audio recordings on youtube, and now they are harassing him again:


Hope he doesn't really need to have police assistance in the future...

Just a dumb kid that thinks he knows something but most likely hasn't experienced anything.

Blade
05-17-2011, 04:05 PM
Dumb Yanks and their guns. Having said that, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people walking around Philly that do need shooting.

Dethbob
05-17-2011, 04:07 PM
The cops reaction was not illegal.. don't know where you are getting that.. and given the circumstances.. I don't think it was such an over reaction..

If you don't think open carry should be legal, that's fine, but you do not have the right to enforce your political views at gunpoint, even if you're a cop.

Instead of trying to provoke attention .. I would try to fix something without the risk of getting shot by an overzealous cop...

If the police think they can ignore laws they don't like and enforce ones they make up, how would you fix that without angering the police?

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 04:26 PM
If you don't think open carry should be legal, that's fine, but you do not have the right to enforce your political views at gunpoint, even it you're a cop.

I could care less about carrying in the open being legal or not.. IMO.. it's stupid.. some thug sees you with a gun on your hip.. walks up behind you and bashes your head in with a brick,... and takes your gun.. and wallet just cause it's there...

What political view was the cop enforcing anyway??.. that it's illeagal to carry open? Sounds like the cop made a mistake.. at least he didn't make a mistake and shoot the guy in the head..and that would have been a law.. not a political view.. (either way.. legal to carry open or not).. and that's that..

Was the cop expressing a political view when he was calling the guy a bunch of names??


If the police think they can ignore laws they don't like and enforce ones they make up, how would you fix that without angering the police?

So now we have gone from one cop making a mistake.. to "the police"... and the police are making up laws.. and not enforcing others...

What laws were ignored?? What law was made up.. oh you mean.. "Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?".. wow.. heaven forbid someone make a mistake.. your making one error.. into a platform that doesn't have a leg to stand on..


If you want to fix something.. you take it to the proper channels first.. here is would be a civil review board.. and so on.. You don't provoke a cop to pull his weapon on you by placing him in a sitution that makes him feel unsafe.. that's just stupid.

Originally Posted by KENTUCKYREDBONE
The cop needs to learn the law and how to behave in a professional manner!

I can see that.. but I have to wonder.. would any of the /insert sarcasm here.."really bad names.." this young and upstanding citizen was called been uttered upon his virgin ears.. had the young man just did as he was told.. by a cop with a gun pointed at him.. and gotten down on his knees?

I wonder if there were anyo other actions that were not caught on tape.. I wonder how this guy was dressed.. I wonder if this was in an area that was known for violence.. or even not a "bad area" of town...

I wonder why so many people are ready to jump down a cops throat.. and not even questioning why there was a recording being made...

rockdawg21
05-17-2011, 05:04 PM
You said "her ass".

KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-17-2011, 05:55 PM
Bottom line the guy was NOT breaking any law when the COP come up behind him and threatened him with an already drawn gun. Now the guy would have been better served to have gotten down on his knees but that still don't excuse this cop. He also offered to show them his licence and they apparently were not interested! It ain't very professional to pull a firearm and holler hey Junior at a citizen that is not breaking any laws. It also ain't very professional to curse at a citizen that is not breaking any law. As for the recorder. If I had a small digital recorder I would be tempted to carry it with me to. Especially if I was being harassed by law enforcement! Also them deciding to charge him AFTER he posted it on YouTube seems like punishment for embarrassing them! In other words don't embarrass your masters!

rockdawg21
05-17-2011, 06:11 PM
With the audio proof, this is an open and shut case. He'll get out of this easy, then sue the **** out of the City of Philadelphia. I'm not into lawsuits, but this one is definitely not frivolous.

Dethbob
05-17-2011, 06:15 PM
Bottom line the guy was NOT breaking any law when the COP come up behind him and threatened him with an already drawn gun. Now the guy would have been better served to have gotten down on his knees but that still don't excuse this cop. He also offered to show them his licence and they apparently were not interested! It ain't very professional to pull a firearm and holler hey Junior at a citizen that is not breaking any laws. It also ain't very professional to curse at a citizen that is not breaking any law. As for the recorder. If I had a small digital recorder I would be tempted to carry it with me to. Especially if I was being harassed by law enforcement! Also them deciding to charge him AFTER he posted it on YouTube seems like punishment for embarrassing them! In other words don't embarrass your masters!



+1

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 06:28 PM
Bottom line the guy was NOT breaking any law when the COP come up behind him and threatened him with an already drawn gun. Now the guy would have been better served to have gotten down on his knees but that still don't excuse this cop. He also offered to show them his licence and they apparently were not interested!

Better Bottom Line

The cop made a mistake in thinking it was againsst the law... and acted accordingly.. and pulled his weapon to ensure that he had the upper hand over a person that he knew nothing about.

Police are trained to control a situtation.. and I would think that controlling the weapon and person would be just a *bit* more important than allowing the guy to move his hands around.. let me guess.. since 90%+ of the population (yeah that's a guess).. is right handed.. and his papers were probably be in his wallet.. in his right hand back pocket.. hmm.. I wonder which hip the gun was on??? You want to let someone that is unknown to you start reaching towards a gun??


It ain't very professional to pull a firearm and holler hey Junior at a citizen that is not breaking any laws.

It isn't very smart to carry a gun in the open anyway... as far as calling the guy Junior.. maybe that was written on the back of his jacket??

It also ain't very professional to curse at a citizen that is not breaking any law.

It isn't very smart to not comply with a police offices demands.. especially one that has a gun drawn on you...I sure would be cursing at a citizen that I thought who was breaking a law and not compling with my requests/demands.. Who knows what the goofball is about to do..

As for the recorder. If I had a small digital recorder I would be tempted to carry it with me to. Especially if I was being harassed by law enforcement!

Except at that point.. when he had the recorder running... he had not been harassed as yet.. He is now being harassed (according to him).. since he has tried to embarrass the cops... So I ask again.. I wonder why he had set out to record the whole thing...

Also them deciding to charge him AFTER he posted it on YouTube seems like punishment for embarrassing them! In other words don't embarrass your masters!

Probably.. and probably will teach a few people a lesson..

Primadawn
05-17-2011, 06:37 PM
Better Bottom Line





It isn't very smart to carry a gun in the open anyway... as far as calling the guy Junior.. maybe that was written on the back of his jacket??



It isn't very smart to not comply with a police offices demands.. especially one that has a gun drawn on you...I sure would be cursing at a citizen that I thought who was breaking a law and not compling with my requests/demands.. Who knows what the goofball is about to do..


..


Oh! Oh! Do we get to start correcting everyone's grammar? Yes!!! I'm ON it! Can we do spelling too? Please? Please?:happydancing:

Blade
05-17-2011, 06:38 PM
Are you a cop Spiritwalker?

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 06:45 PM
Oh! Oh! Do we get to start correcting everyone's grammar? Yes!!! I'm ON it! Can we do spelling too? Please? Please?:happydancing:

Grammer and spelling are two different things.. I have plenty of incorrectly spelled words.. mostly while I am at work and I have to post using IE.

and there is also a big difference in the use of the word "Isn't".. and "ain't".

but sure.. feel free to slaughter my spelling..

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 06:50 PM
Are you a cop Spiritwalker?

Actually no.

But I wanted to be one for many years.. I was taken some college and such getting me there..

Then I did some "day in the life" ride alongs.. wow.. opened my eyes... I don't have the mentality to do their job...

I respect police.. they get the first line of crap when something goes wrong.. and the VAST majority are always condemed for releative errors..

Are there bad cops?? sure.. just like people.. and that's what cops are.. people .. that for nominal pay.. do a job that many of us could not even imagine.

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 07:38 PM
UPDATE:

..............
What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.

"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip."Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."

The cops, department officials later admitted, were wrong. They didn't know that a person who has a license to carry a firearm can openly carry it in the city.

But the story doesn't end there. How could it?

After Fiorino posted his recordings on YouTube, they went viral. Members of pro-firearms forums on the Web took a particular interest in the incident.

The Police Department heard about the YouTube clips. A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police.

Fiorino said he plans to sue the city whenever his criminal case is resolved.

Police spokesman Lt. Ray Evers said the department believes that Fiorino wanted to get into a confrontation with cops, that he wanted to see them lose their cool so he later could file a lawsuit.

Or, as one cop was overheard saying on the YouTube recording: "He set us the f--- up, that's what the f--- he did."

A handful of his friends fell victim to random crimes over the years - a mugging here, a beatdown there, the kind of stuff that happens all the time in a big city.

It was enough to make him think about being able to protect himself if he ever ran into trouble. "It would be terrifying to me to be powerless," he said.

So, about a year ago, Fiorino said, he got a firearms license and began openly carrying his .40-caliber Glock.

"I did research for quite a few years leading up to making a decision to carry," he said. "I was ready to take on the responsibility."

His gun went with him everywhere - to the store, you name it.

After he began carrying, Fiorino said, he was stopped a handful of times by cops in Montgomery County and other parts of the state. The encounters were civil and quick, he said, and usually ended when an officer checked out his firearms license.

He also had encounters with Philadelphia cops last year near the Philadelphia Museum of Art and on South Street.

"Both times they told me what I was doing was illegal," he said. "They patted me down and said, 'We don't care what you consent to.'

"The second time, they did an official confiscation, and it took me five months to get back my gun."

It could be argued that Fiorino should have stopped openly carrying his gun because it invited police scrutiny. But that argument couldn't be more wrong, said John Pierce, co-founder of OpenCarry.org.

Pierce, of Minnesota, said his website offers information on gun rights "from a legal perspective, a public-policy perspective, not from a 'my cold, dead fingers' viewpoint."

"According to the Pennsylvania and U.S. constitutions, open carry is Mark's right," he said.

"To say he has to give up that right in order to stop being persecuted by the state, well, that doesn't sound like the America we want to live in."

Pennsylvania allows citizens to openly carry firearms across the state, but with a simple caveat: A person who carries a weapon openly in Philadelphia also must be in possession of a firearms license.

Fiorino said he was following the law on Feb. 13, when he decided to take a walk to AutoZone while he was in the Northeast, visiting his mom.

It was a nice day, warm enough for him to head out without a jacket, leaving his holstered Glock fully exposed.

Fiorino's firearms license was in his shirt pocket, he said, along with his driver's license.

Oh, and a digital recorder.



An unnerving back-and-forth started to unfold like a bizarre routine. Dougherty would bark an order, and Fiorino would make an alternative suggestion.

Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees.

"Excuse me?" Fiorino said.

"Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said.

MORE STUFF ALREADY IN THE OTHER STROY....

"You f------ come here looking for f------ problems? Where do you live?" yelled one officer.

"I'm sorry, gentlemen," Fiorino said. "If I'm under arrest, I have nothing left to say."

"F------ a------, shut the f--- up!" the cop hollered.

The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives.

Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up.

When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go.

That might have been the end of the thing, too, if it hadn't been for the recordings.



"They treated me like a criminal," he said.

"The organization that's supposed to be the embodiment of the law didn't even know some of the most important laws at the street level."

He decided to put the recordings on YouTube.

"I wanted people to know this is an example of what can happen if you exercise your rights and freedom in Philadelphia," he said.

Fiorino said he didn't lay a trap for the cops. He regularly carries a recorder with him in case he ever has to use his gun and then offer proof of what transpired, he said.

"I'm not trying to set anyone up," he said.

"It was a setup. He's done this kind of thing before," said Evers, the police spokesman, referring to Fiorino's encounters with authorities. "He did it intentionally, and he audiotaped it."

Evers said the department decided to take a second look at the case after learning about the recordings.

Any number of things could have gone wrong during Fiorino's confrontation with Dougherty, Evers said.

For one thing, Evers said, Fiorino could have been shot. Cops who raced to the scene could have gotten into a car accident or injured pedestrians.

Ultimately, the D.A.'s Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct. He's scheduled for trial in July.

Fiorino's attorney, Joseph Valvo, said the move to file criminal charges against Fiorino was retaliation for his posting the recordings on YouTube.

"They're embarrassed and using creative theories to come up with charges," he said.

"Our officers weren't up to speed [because] we never really addressed it," said Lt. Francis Healy, the department's lawyer.

"In the last several weeks, we've done a lot of training and put out a lot of information about what is allowed and what's not allowed. Right now, our officers are better-versed on the subject matter."

Healy said he emphasized the importance of officers being polite and professional if they have to stop a person who is legally carrying a firearm.

"You can use caution, but you don't need to curse them up and down and put a gun in their face," he said.

At City Hall on Saturday, about 30 gun owners staged a protest of Fiorino's recent arrest.

The protesters and cops got along fine.

"These aren't bad people," Healy said.

County Mike
05-17-2011, 07:47 PM
Whether he set them up or not, he did not do anything illegal. If he exposed a problem in the system, they should have just fixed the problem and left him alone. Charging him after the fact just makes them look worse.

If he did it just for the opportunity to sue the police department, he's a scumbag but the cops still acted incorrectly. If he did it to emphasize his right to carry, I'm all for it. I believe in the right to carry and hate that it's nearly impossible to get a carry license in NJ.

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 07:55 PM
Whether he set them up or not, he did not do anything illegal. If he exposed a problem in the system, they should have just fixed the problem and left him alone. Charging him after the fact just makes them look worse.


A mistake is just a mistake.. the cop didn't do anything illegal. Yet some people wish to drag the cops through the mud.. claiming political issues (go figure)


If he did it just for the opportunity to sue the police department, he's a scumbag but the cops still acted incorrectly. If he did it to emphasize his right to carry, I'm all for it. I believe in the right to carry and hate that it's nearly impossible to get a carry license in NJ.


I don't see that the cops acted incorrectly.. given that the first cop was unaware of the carry openly law... The guy was just looking to cause some trouble..

And normally .. in my experience.. when people go out of their way to emphasize their rights.. they are usually in the wrong..

County Mike
05-17-2011, 07:59 PM
The cops didn't do anything illegal by questioning and detaining him. They did act inappropriately.

Charging him after the fact is also wrong, even if it's not illegal. If he baited them and they fell for it, does that mean he did something illegal? I don't think so.

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 08:05 PM
The cops didn't do anything illegal by questioning and detaining him. They did act inappropriately.



Disagree.... IMO.. it's difficult to act "appropriately".

But here is the audio..

http://www.copblock.org/3702/mark-fiorino-update/

just scroll down a little...

and you can hear the cop say.. put your hands up.. the goofball says.. I am going to show you my papers...

And just hearing the tone of this snots voice..

He's lucky he didn't get pistol whipped..."Now.. do you want to get down like I told you!"


Listen to how clear the audio is.. BS that he wasn't trying to cause this to happen.. what a patriot...

Go "friend him on FB"..

Mark also started a fundraising thread to bring a suit against the Philadelphia Police Department:

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/132662-fundraiser-holding-philadelphia-responsible.html

What a tool.

Primadawn
05-17-2011, 08:10 PM
Grammer and spelling are two different things.. I have plenty of incorrectly spelled words.. mostly while I am at work and I have to post using IE.

and there is also a big difference in the use of the word "Isn't".. and "ain't".

but sure.. feel free to slaughter my spelling..

Just trying to make a point. You had to BOLD your "Isn't" to try to belittle Kentuckyredbone. I don't think that was necessary. We all make grammatical and spelling errors--no need to cast stones.

Incidentally, I don't think Kentuckyredbone was making a grammatical "error" anyway...just typing colloquially.

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 08:12 PM
This guy just strikes me.. hearing his voice.. reading about his actions..

He strikes me as THIS GUY. The only charater that is worse than Sam.. in the transformers movies..
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/1/19/ROTF_LeoSpitz.jpg/200px-ROTF_LeoSpitz.jpg

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 08:13 PM
Just trying to make a point. You had to BOLD your "Isn't" to try to belittle Kentuckyredbone. I don't think that was necessary. We all make grammatical and spelling errors--no need to cast stones.

Incidentally, I don't think Kentuckyredbone was making a grammatical "error" anyway...just typing colloquially.

fair enough.

My apologizes KRB. *kisses

KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-17-2011, 08:13 PM
The cop AIN"T always right and the cop AIN"T always wrong! I do believe the cop broke the law. If nothing else it was unreasonable search and seizure! The citizen was breaking no law and still had a gun pulled on him,was detained,cursed and threatened. Then after exposing Police misbehavior was charged with a bogus crime. Guess he made the government masters angry! Sorry but I don't buy into the authorities are always right deal! As for the recorder why not? From what I read he has been harassed by them before. In the past they even wrongfully took his firearm. His personal legally owned property!

Spiritwalker
05-17-2011, 08:19 PM
The cop AIN"T always right and the cop AIN"T always wrong! I do believe the cop broke the law. If nothing else it was unreasonable search and seizure! The citizen was breaking no law and still had a gun pulled on him,was detained,cursed and threatened. Then after exposing Police misbehavior was charged with a bogus crime. Guess he made the government masters angry! Sorry but I don't buy into the authorities are always right deal! As for the recorder why not? From what I read he has been harassed by them before. In the past they even wrongfully took his firearm. His personal legally owned property!

Well.. the cops are a whole lot more right than wrong..

Re; the recorder...Where did you read that? Site your reference please.

I read in an interview with him. . that he always carries it.. (BS) because he wants to have back up incase he ever has to use it...

This guy is a tool.

I could say a lot more.. but I already kissed you and made up.. have fun.

County Mike
05-17-2011, 09:17 PM
I finally got to listen to it now that I'm home. Except for the cursing, the cops holding and questioning him doesn't bother me.

Filing charges against him because of the recording is still BS though. They should have handled it much better.

NateR
05-18-2011, 12:45 AM
The police officer was very much in the wrong with the way he handled this situation. Not only was he ignorant of the law that he is hired to enforce; but he was verbally abusive towards a man who was not actually breaking any laws - which is extremely unprofessional and deserving of disciplinary action.

Just because cops in general have to put up with a lot of crap doesn't excuse this kind of behavior. Plus, police officers are just as capable of corruption, abuse of power and wrongdoing as anyone else.

rockdawg21
05-18-2011, 02:03 AM
The police officer was very much in the wrong with the way he handled this situation. Not only was he ignorant of the law that he is hired to enforce; but he was verbally abusive towards a man who was not actually breaking any laws - which is extremely unprofessional and deserving of disciplinary action.

Just because cops in general have to put up with a lot of crap doesn't excuse this kind of behavior. Plus, police officers are just as capable of corruption, abuse of power and wrongdoing as anyone else.
It's also very well known that Philly cops have been corrupt for years. Everybody knows the Philly Mob has guys on the payroll. In one of the Gangland episodes, the former leader of the Pagans MC, Jimmy D, kidnapped 2 members of the Philly Mob and had them drive him through downtown Philly. He had a .45 to the back of the driver's head and the driver saw some police. The guy got out of the car and Jimmy D shot him in broad daylight in front of the cops. The mobster survived and ratted to the police. Jimmy D was arrested and only served a few days in jail. He said something to the effect of:

"Philly PD is very corrupt, gotta lotta guys on the payroll. I wind up getting out of jail on $150 bail for a shooting in center city downtown [Philadelphia]."

Of course, this was years ago, but I'm sure the system has been cleaned up since then. :rolleyes:

Not that any of this is connected, just giving examples of the corruption of the Philly PD.

NateR
05-18-2011, 02:31 AM
It's also very well known that Philly cops have been corrupt for years. Everybody knows the Philly Mob has guys on the payroll. In one of the Gangland episodes, the former leader of the Pagans MC, Jimmy D, kidnapped 2 members of the Philly Mob and had them drive him through downtown Philly. He had a .45 to the back of the driver's head and the driver saw some police. The guy got out of the car and Jimmy D shot him in broad daylight in front of the cops. The mobster survived and ratted to the police. Jimmy D was arrested and only served a few days in jail. He said something to the effect of:

"Philly PD is very corrupt, gotta lotta guys on the payroll. I wind up getting out of jail on $150 bail for a shooting in center city downtown [Philadelphia]."

Of course, this was years ago, but I'm sure the system has been cleaned up since then. :rolleyes:

Not that any of this is connected, just giving examples of the corruption of the Philly PD.

Even if the police officer is not corrupt, just the fact that their job is stressful is no excuse to treat law abiding citizens like garbage. The job of our US military is arguably more stressful than anything a police officer has to put up with and that kind of behavior would NEVER be tolerated from our Armed Forces.

Chuck
05-18-2011, 03:36 AM
The guys a D-bag and no doubt set the cops and the city up just to sue them. I think the cops did a decent job. Not perfect but decent. Personally I would have been fine with them tazing that idiot.

But that's another thread....... :wink:

Buzzard
05-18-2011, 04:35 AM
A mistake is just a mistake.. the cop didn't do anything illegal. Yet some people wish to drag the cops through the mud.. claiming political issues (go figure)





I don't see that the cops acted incorrectly.. given that the first cop was unaware of the carry openly law... The guy was just looking to cause some trouble..

And normally .. in my experience.. when people go out of their way to emphasize their rights.. they are usually in the wrong..

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Neezar
05-18-2011, 04:54 AM
The guys a D-bag and no doubt set the cops and the city up just to sue them. I think the cops did a decent job. Not perfect but decent. Personally I would have been fine with them tazing that idiot.

But that's another thread....... :wink:

:w00t:

I agree!

County Mike
05-18-2011, 12:05 PM
It does sound like the guys a D-bag and set the cops up.

However, the cops fell for it. That's on them.

Spiritwalker
05-18-2011, 12:19 PM
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

But the cop didn't break any law.

Spiritwalker
05-18-2011, 12:20 PM
The police officer was very much in the wrong with the way he handled this situation. Not only was he ignorant of the law that he is hired to enforce; but he was verbally abusive towards a man who was not actually breaking any laws - which is extremely unprofessional and deserving of disciplinary action.

Just because cops in general have to put up with a lot of crap doesn't excuse this kind of behavior. Plus, police officers are just as capable of corruption, abuse of power and wrongdoing as anyone else.


I gotta admit.. I was a bit shocked by this...

TheDotComKid
05-18-2011, 01:00 PM
I gotta admit.. I was a bit shocked by this...

you gotta agree? a few pages back you said you would have swore at him too and that he was lucky he didnt get pistol whipped and now you agree the cop was wrong for it? you just trying to be diplomatic?

TheDotComKid
05-18-2011, 01:08 PM
And just hearing the tone of this snots voice..

He's lucky he didn't get pistol whipped..."Now.. do you want to get down like I told you!"



I think you're crazy if thats how you think it should be handled! the cop was too foolish and arrogant to not treat him like a human being! and wasnt humble enough to accept the possibility he was wrong,plus he threatened to shoot him when he could have just told him to turn around with his hands on the back of his head.

Spiritwalker
05-18-2011, 01:42 PM
And just hearing the tone of this snots voice..

He's lucky he didn't get pistol whipped..."Now.. do you want to get down like I told you!"



I think you're crazy if thats how you think it should be handled! the cop was too foolish and arrogant to not treat him like a human being! and wasnt humble enough to accept the possibility he was wrong,plus he threatened to shoot him when he could have just told him to turn around with his hands on the back of his head.



I was a bit shocked by Nate's take...

Can I think your crazy for not thinking that this was exactly what the guy was trying to do?


When the cop told him to put his hands up.. and to get down.. the guy offered to reach for papers... well.. that's not what the cop said to do..

Try being a cop.. maybe you would have a better understanding...maybe not.

You tell someone with a weapon to do something.. and they don't.. things esclate rather quickly..

This guy was a tool.. and was trying to get this type of reaction from the police..

I would be willing to bet that a HUGE amount of the population.. given the same circumstances... would have done exactly what the cop said.. if you listen to the set up audio.. the cop wasn't talking "bad" to this guy.. until he started with his back talk..

The whole thing was set up by this guy.. and people are raising him to "hero status".. for not listening to the police..who had issued a simple command/request/directive.... pretty simple if you ask me.

This was not "reality".. this was a poor man's episode of Punk'ed..

Like I said.. I bet this goofball is hoping that he doesn't need the police anytime soon.

Primadawn
05-18-2011, 03:27 PM
But the cop didn't break any law.

Neither did the citizen.

Also, I don't understand people calling someone a "tool". Where did that ever come from? Aren't tools useful? :laugh:

County Mike
05-18-2011, 03:37 PM
Neither did the citizen.

Also, I don't understand people calling someone a "tool". Where did that ever come from? Aren't tools useful? :laugh:

You make a good argument for the "tool" word. I guess if the person is being used by someone it would fit.

"That guy is such a tool. His wife makes him do all the chores while she's out shopping."

Spiritwalker
05-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Neither did the citizen.

Agreed.. but given the sitution and the cops not knowing.. the guy should have just complied.. nothing was going to happen to him.. as he knew.. but he had to be a moron.. not thinking about the cop standing there not knowing him.. and not knowing what was going to happen.

Also, I don't understand people calling someone a "tool". Where did that ever come from? Aren't tools useful? :laugh:

A tool is something to be used and put away.. forgotton until the tool is needed again...

thath's how it came to me...

Also.. think flat head in a phillips world..

rearnakedchoke
05-19-2011, 02:23 AM
i think the cop should have known the law, but when the guy didn't want to get on his knees, the cops had the right to detain him .. if a cop pulls me over and tells me i was speeding .. even if i think i wasn't speeding, i wouldn't be in the right if i refused to show my license and registration to the cop if he wanted to see it ...

atomdanger
05-19-2011, 05:51 AM
From what I can make of it, two wrongs in this situation.

The man, for one, should have followed police orders,
then he might have more to bitch about.

But a guy with a not refusing police orders is going to make a cop go on edge,
did the police handle things in a professional manner? NO

Buzzard
05-19-2011, 10:00 AM
But the cop didn't break any law.

The ignorance of the cop not knowing that the man was carrying legally. It is the officer's job to know the law, that law, that allows the man to carry legally.

Buzzard
05-19-2011, 10:12 AM
i think the cop should have known the law, but when the guy didn't want to get on his knees, the cops had the right to detain him .. if a cop pulls me over and tells me i was speeding .. even if i think i wasn't speeding, i wouldn't be in the right if i refused to show my license and registration to the cop if he wanted to see it ...

I've been pulled over for speeding once, but I wasn't told to drop to my knees because of it. He didn't refuse to show his licenses though, he offered them.

Now, I think the guy was stupid for not complying due to the fact that he could have been shot, payday setup or not.

Neezar
05-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Even with open carry laws you can't stroll into a public place with a gun on your hip. And I gather the guy quoting the law knew this. So was he really going to Autozone? Or did he see an opportunity and take it?

Spiritwalker
05-19-2011, 12:23 PM
The ignorance of the cop not knowing that the man was carrying legally. It is the officer's job to know the law, that law, that allows the man to carry legally.


And I would be willing to bet a large amount of cash that.. if he had done what the cop said to do.. the following would have happened.

1. Cop Secures weapon
2. Backup arrives
3. papers get produced and the actual law becomes knowledge to the cop
4. weapon is given back... cop says "sorry, have a great day junior"

But this guy had to try and find a soapbox to stand on.

Buzzard
05-19-2011, 09:31 PM
And I would be willing to bet a large amount of cash that.. if he had done what the cop said to do.. the following would have happened.

1. Cop Secures weapon
2. Backup arrives
3. papers get produced and the actual law becomes knowledge to the cop
4. weapon is given back... cop says "sorry, have a great day junior"

But this guy had to try and find a soapbox to stand on.

Wouldn't have needed the soapbox to stand on if he was on his knees. Again, the kid should have complied, but the cop should have known the law prior to this incident.

County Mike
05-19-2011, 10:07 PM
Even with open carry laws you can't stroll into a public place with a gun on your hip.

Apparently you can.

Twinsmama
05-19-2011, 10:13 PM
Apparently you can.

some states you can and some you can't. most states you even need a concelead weapons permit to carry a stun gun or even pepper spray.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-20-2011, 12:54 AM
Page 2 from Philly.com Notice they had given him trouble over it before even though he wasn't breaking any law!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(Page 2 of 4)"I did research for quite a few years leading up to making a decision to carry," he said. "I was ready to take on the responsibility."

His gun went with him everywhere - to the store, you name it.

After he began carrying, Fiorino said, he was stopped a handful of times by cops in Montgomery County and other parts of the state. The encounters were civil and quick, he said, and usually ended when an officer checked out his firearms license.


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He also had encounters with Philadelphia cops last year near the Philadelphia Museum of Art and on South Street.

"Both times they told me what I was doing was illegal," he said. "They patted me down and said, 'We don't care what you consent to.'

"The second time, they did an official confiscation, and it took me five months to get back my gun."

It could be argued that Fiorino should have stopped openly carrying his gun because it invited police scrutiny. But that argument couldn't be more wrong, said John Pierce, co-founder of OpenCarry.org.

Pierce, of Minnesota, said his website offers information on gun rights "from a legal perspective, a public-policy perspective, not from a 'my cold, dead fingers' viewpoint."

"According to the Pennsylvania and U.S. constitutions, open carry is Mark's right," he said.

"To say he has to give up that right in order to stop being persecuted by the state, well, that doesn't sound like the America we want to live in."

Pennsylvania allows citizens to openly carry firearms across the state, but with a simple caveat: A person who carries a weapon openly in Philadelphia also must be in possession of a firearms license.

Fiorino said he was following the law on Feb. 13, when he decided to take a walk to AutoZone while he was in the Northeast, visiting his mom.

It was a nice day, warm enough for him to head out without a jacket, leaving his holstered Glock fully exposed.

Fiorino's firearms license was in his shirt pocket, he said, along with his driver's license.

Oh, and a digital recorder.



An unnerving back-and-forth started to unfold like a bizarre routine. Dougherty would bark an order, and Fiorino would make an alternative suggestion.

Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees.

"Excuse me?" Fiorino said.

"Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said.

BamaGrits84
05-23-2011, 09:51 PM
I could care less about carrying in the open being legal or not.. IMO.. it's stupid.. some thug sees you with a gun on your hip.. walks up behind you and bashes your head in with a brick,... and takes your gun.. and wallet just cause it's there...



I think you mean COULDN'T as in you care so little already you are not capable of caring any less. Could care less means there is still a level of lack of caring below the current level of care you have.

BamaGrits84
05-23-2011, 10:14 PM
The law for Philly says you cannot carry a gun on public streets UNLESS you have a permit, so I don't think these cops were in the wrong for stopping this man to begin with. And I don't even think it was wrong for them to pull a gun on him just to ensure their own safety. I do think that their first question should have been "Do you have a permit for that firearm?" But it was a barrage of abusive words that made this go to a level it didn't need to.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-24-2011, 01:26 AM
It ain't legal to drive without a drives licence but cops don't routinely pull over every driver they see! A cop should have legit reason to suspect wrong doing. Not your a suspect just becuase!

BamaGrits84
05-24-2011, 02:57 AM
It ain't legal to drive without a drives licence but cops don't routinely pull over every driver they see! A cop should have legit reason to suspect wrong doing. Not your a suspect just becuase!

Well they did because the laws in their city require you to have a permit to carry a weapon on public streets, so being that he was on a public street and displaying his firearm they had every legal right to stop him, but only to verify he had a permit under their own law.

In FL you can get gun drawn on you just because they feel like to because of the concealed weapons laws give all law enforcement a reason to suspect any person the encounter may be armed.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-24-2011, 10:33 PM
Sounds as if your guilty until proven innocent then maybe still guilty after proven innocent!

BamaGrits84
05-24-2011, 10:53 PM
Sounds as if your guilty until proven innocent then maybe still guilty after proven innocent!

It means that police officers can treat you that way for sure.