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Dethbob
05-05-2011, 07:56 PM
With the Fifth of May partially in the rearview mirror and Fourth of July approaching, and in light of current events, I’ve been inspired to meditate on the obvious, as follows:

Patriotism is a virtue, a good and healthy attitude for citizens to have toward their own nation. It binds a nation together, contributes to a sense of common purpose, and permits the kind of stability in which individual rights can flourish. It was the Patriotism of the British that stalled the blitzkrieg and allowed time for the world to wake up. It was, in part, the lack of Patriotism of the Somalis that allowed factions and gangs to flourish and plunder, ensuring a bleak and evil future for thousands.

A Patriot, in the truest sense, is not merely a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life, but an Activist, one who commits to action, even personal risk, to support the common good and achieve the highest goals for his nation. Patriotism will inspire good men to fight, if the occasion calls for it, but patriotism is not a cause of war.

Many claim that Patriotism is counterproductive to the greater good of humankind and should be set aside in the interest of international cooperation, but I believe this is incorrect. Deferring responsibility to some international or universal value which perhaps should, but does not, exist is amoral. One can not decline to feed his own children on the grounds that someone in a foreign country may need food. Internationalism is all well and good, and the ‘brotherhood of man’ should, of course, try to get along, but the world works best when each people see to their own problems first.

As much misused, misappropriated and maligned as it has been, I still think it is a good and necessary thing to have, and to cultivate, and to celebrate.

Tyburn
05-05-2011, 08:35 PM
A Patriot, in the truest sense, is not merely a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life, but an Activist, one who commits to action, even personal risk, to support the common good and achieve the highest goals for his nation.

How do you define a Fascist...and how do you differentiate between the nationalism of a patriot...and the nationalism of a fascist

I aggree with all youve said...but know that the Fascists have used the same arguments...they have said like you, they need to ACT...and that HAS started a war.

Look at Hitler...He inspired a sense of patriotism into the defeat of Germany during the first world war...explain the differences between healthy love of ones own country, and the unhealthy desire to conform the world to that which you love, sometimes innocently assuming it is for the best of all.

"Patriotism will inspire good men to fight, if the occasion calls for it, but patriotism is not a cause of war."

Dethbob
05-06-2011, 02:16 PM
Great points, Dave, thanks!

I would say that Patriotism is based on gratitude, while Nationalism is based on fear. When disaster strikes, Patriots gather food and shovels and go help, Nationalists go to the Jewish neighborhood and burn it down.

Hitler’s movement was based on pure nationalism: The motivation was not to build up Germany so much as to punish the rest of the world, not to conform the world to that which they loved, but to dominate the thing they feared. For the German people having the knives pointed outward rather than at each other was a small but noticeable improvement, and it proved too tempting to settle for that.

I'll admit that America does have its own Nationalistic tendencies, but I would say that we are more likely to build a hospital in a foreign land than to blow one up, and I think that is an indication that we are, on the whole, trending Patriotic. At least for now.

Spiritwalker
05-06-2011, 02:49 PM
A Patriot, in the truest sense, is not merely a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life, but an Activist, one who commits to action, even personal risk, to support the common good and achieve the highest goals for his nation. Patriotism will inspire good men to fight, if the occasion calls for it, but patriotism is not a cause of war.

I would argue that because of patriotism, we do go to war... Personal, local, internal and international. And in many ways, is the only real reason for any type of war.

Because of "X" patriots rally with others.. But the "X" reason put forth from what becomes the opposition, could also be considered the acts of patriots...


How do you define a Fascist? a bully...totalitarian rule...

Spiritwalker
05-06-2011, 02:51 PM
Great points, Dave, thanks!

I would say that Patriotism is based on gratitude, while Nationalism is based on fear. When disaster strikes, Patriots gather food and shovels and go help, Nationalists go to the Jewish neighborhood and burn it down..


Well said sir!


I'll admit that America does have its own Nationalistic tendencies, but I would say that we are more likely to build a hospital in a foreign land than to blow one up, and I think that is an indication that we are, on the whole, trending Patriotic. At least for now.


We will blow up a hospital.. but not based on the fear that the sick there will make us sick.. or that the people in that hospital are not deserving of treatment and life.

Tyburn
05-06-2011, 04:28 PM
Great points, Dave, thanks!

I would say that Patriotism is based on gratitude, while Nationalism is based on fear. When disaster strikes, Patriots gather food and shovels and go help, Nationalists go to the Jewish neighborhood and burn it down.

Hitler’s movement was based on pure nationalism: The motivation was not to build up Germany so much as to punish the rest of the world, not to conform the world to that which they loved, but to dominate the thing they feared. For the German people having the knives pointed outward rather than at each other was a small but noticeable improvement, and it proved too tempting to settle for that.

I'll admit that America does have its own Nationalistic tendencies, but I would say that we are more likely to build a hospital in a foreign land than to blow one up, and I think that is an indication that we are, on the whole, trending Patriotic. At least for now.
oh indeed! Thats an interesting way of looking at it...so your saying the Domination comes out of wanting to conqure fears...rather then wanting to spread what one loves....I think thats probably true in 90 percent of all the cases

Like you hinted...I think you can also tell that Patriotism generally STAYS in the country of origin. Its more about how you conduct homeland politics, then how you conduct world affairs, because the object of your love doesnt really exist outside of your boarders...you dont love Iraq the same way you love Arizona..even though both are in a sense conquests...because one of them is American...and the other...despite placement of troops, isnt, and never will be home soil.

I also like how you stress appears to be Activist but almost non-political. So its not about campaigning for change, or conquest and spreading of policy...its about helping others who need help IN YOUR OWN LAND to in a sence make your own land more complete.

:) Yes...Very good :applause:

Tyburn
05-06-2011, 04:42 PM
...totalitarian rule...

Definately in the political sense...whats interesting about America is its Government is one of the least totalitarian in the western world. The Patriotism we see comes from the people...not really from the politicians...The Government must walk a fine line because the Americans have made it abundantly clear that they will not tollerate being abused by their rullers and are not afraid of rebellion...and the fear that, with arms...they really will...and the fear that those intrusted to support the politicians are largely citizens, with arms, who will have more empathy with the populas in the case of an uprising, then the Government...actually works VERY well to stop your government from misstreating you

I think that maybe the TRUEST sence of Patriotism is love of ones country driven more by its people then its political leaders...I think Nationalism is Patriotism driven by a corrupt political bias...I think that when that happens, because its a totalitarian situation...you have NO patriotism from the people...they just follow orders to avoid being disgraced and outcast themselves.

That, IMHO is why Americas cultural confidence, and the patriotism of its people, doesnt concern me in the slightest. Its not politically motivated, its not even seen on the world stage...its only seen in interaction with individual Americans...and that is almost always, cheerful, happy, welcoming, and generous.

In Europe it is different...partially because we have such a long history we have no specific thing that defines who we are...and therefore what it is we are all supposed to love. instead, Europeans fall in love with ideologies, and those almost always come from a Government that is corrupted by greed and power. In this country...over the last five years it has just about become acceptable to be seen in possession of a Union Jack...BUT if you fly the flag of Saint George...it is AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMED that you are a Nationalist...and that with the full stigma of racism, and violence attached, we arent even allowed to fly a flag without council planning permission! so people, if they feel strongly display the flag across a window...and if you see the white background with the red cross...then you steer clear because you dont wish to be associated with Nationalism...Europeans are frightened of Patriotism, because they dare not risk being accused of being a National. in many ways...its very sad :sad:

flo
05-07-2011, 04:35 AM
With the Fifth of May partially in the rearview mirror and Fourth of July approaching, and in light of current events, I’ve been inspired to meditate on the obvious, as follows:

Patriotism is a virtue, a good and healthy attitude for citizens to have toward their own nation. It binds a nation together, contributes to a sense of common purpose, and permits the kind of stability in which individual rights can flourish. It was the Patriotism of the British that stalled the blitzkrieg and allowed time for the world to wake up. It was, in part, the lack of Patriotism of the Somalis that allowed factions and gangs to flourish and plunder, ensuring a bleak and evil future for thousands.

A Patriot, in the truest sense, is not merely a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life, but an Activist, one who commits to action, even personal risk, to support the common good and achieve the highest goals for his nation. Patriotism will inspire good men to fight, if the occasion calls for it, but patriotism is not a cause of war.

Many claim that Patriotism is counterproductive to the greater good of humankind and should be set aside in the interest of international cooperation, but I believe this is incorrect. Deferring responsibility to some international or universal value which perhaps should, but does not, exist is amoral. One can not decline to feed his own children on the grounds that someone in a foreign country may need food. Internationalism is all well and good, and the ‘brotherhood of man’ should, of course, try to get along, but the world works best when each people see to their own problems first.


As much misused, misappropriated and maligned as it has been, I still think it is a good and necessary thing to have, and to cultivate, and to celebrate.

I believe it is incorrect as well. I also believe in American exceptionalism.

I'm an Army brat so I've always felt patriotism in my heart, especially around the 4th of July, Veteran's Day, Dec.7th, etc., etc. We lived right next to the parade grounds at Ft. Lewis! It was wonderful! But I find that love for my country runs deeper as the years go by.

I'm really fearful of the direction we are going, this unbelievable debt and the push for globalism.

Nice writing, dethbob. Important topic and good discussion, IMO.