PDA

View Full Version : I ain't yet figured where in the constitution he gets this authority!


KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-24-2011, 12:52 AM
PrintBack to story .
Government drops defense of anti-gay-marriage law
By PETE YOST and NANCY BENAC, Associated Press Pete Yost And Nancy Benac, Associated Press
1 hr 53 mins ago

.WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama ordered his administration on Wednesday to stop defending the constitutionality of a federal law that bans recognition of gay marriage, a policy reversal that could have major implications for the rights and benefits of gay couples and reignite an emotional debate for the 2012 presidential campaign.

Obama still is "grappling" with his personal views on whether gays should be allowed to marry but has long opposed the federal law as unnecessary and unfair, said spokesman Jay Carney.

First word of the change came not from the White House but from the Justice Department. Attorney General Eric Holder announced that Obama had concluded the 15-year-old Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, was legally indefensible.

The decision was immediately welcomed by gay rights organizations and vilified by those on the other side. Some Democrats in Congress praised the decision, while it drew criticism from some Republicans and the office of their leader, House Speaker John Boehner, all surely a preview of coming political debate over the latest development in the long-running national conversation about gay rights.

The outcome of that debate could have enormous impact because federal laws and regulations confer more than a thousand rights or benefits on those who are married, most involving taxpayer money — Social Security survivors' benefits, family and medical leave, equal compensation as federal employees and immigration rights.

"Much of the legal landscape has changed in the 15 years since Congress passed DOMA," Holder said in a statement explaining the decision.

As well, the social landscape has changed.

Since the law was passed in 1996, five states and the District of Columbia have approved gay marriage, and others allow civil unions. An Associated Press-National Constitution Center Poll conducted last August found 52 percent of Americans saying the federal government should give legal recognition to marriages between couples of the same sex.

Thirty states have constitutional amendments banning gay marriage. Same-sex marriage is legal in Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont and Washington, D.C.

The White House framed Obama's decision as one brought on by a legal deadline in one of several federal court cases challenging the constitutionality of the law which defines marriage as only between a man and a woman.

But Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., speculated Obama's decision was motivated more by political considerations: "It's only in the run-up to re-election that he's suddenly changed his mind."

Obama's reversal on this law had long been sought by gays, who overwhelmingly voted

for his election in 2008.

The Justice Department had defended the act in court until now. But Holder said Obama concluded the law fails to meet a rigorous standard under which courts view with suspicion any laws targeting minority groups, such as gays, who have suffered a history of discrimination — a stricter standard of scrutiny than the department has applied in the past.

Looking back to Congress' debate on the legislation, Holder said it was clear that there were "numerous expressions reflecting moral disapproval of gays and lesbians and their intimate and family relationships — precisely the kind of stereotype-based thinking and animus the (Constitution's) Equal Protection Clause is designed to guard against."

Gay rights activists noted that the president's move came just two months after Congress, urged on by the administration, voted to repeal the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that prevented gays from serving openly in the military.

"This major turn should be a final nail in the coffin for the different treatment of gay and non-gay people by the federal government," said law professor Suzanne Goldberg, director of Columbia University's Center for Gender and Sexuality Law.

Ron Carey, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, called the change "a tremendous step toward recognizing our common humanity and ending an egregious injustice against thousands of loving, committed couples who simply want the protections, rights and responsibilities afforded other married couples."

On the other side of the debate, reaction was vehement.

"On the one hand this is a truly shocking extra-constitutional power grab in declaring gay people are a protected class," said Maggie Gallagher of the conservative National Organization for Marriage. "The good news is this now clears the way for the House to intervene and to get lawyers in the courtroom who actually want to defend the law, and not please their powerful political special interests."

Boehner's spokesman, Michael Steel, issued a statement faulting Obama for stirring up the issue "while Americans want Washington to focus on creating jobs and cutting spending."

For now the law remains on the books, while challenges work through the courts. But Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., announced plans to introduce legislation to repeal it.

"My own belief is that when two people love each other and enter the contract of marriage, the federal government should honor that," she said.

At a December news conference, Obama said that his position on gay marriage was "constantly evolving." He has opposed such marriages and supported instead civil unions for gay and lesbian couples. The president said such civil unions are his baseline — at this point, as he put it.

"This is something that we're going to continue to debate, and I personally am going to continue to wrestle with going forward," he said

Marriage law in the U.S. historically has been a matter left to the states, but the federal law bars recognition of them by the federal government.

Thus a same-sex married couple in Vermont could file a joint state tax return but had to file their U.S. tax forms separately. Similarly, legally married same-sex spouses might be ordered to proceed separately though customs and immigrations checkpoints when returning to the U.S. from abroad, and a gay American married to a foreigner could not be sure that the spouse would be allowed to immigrate.

Among those affected by DOMA were a lesbian couple from New York City — Edith Windsor and Thea Spyer. After four decades together, they married in Canada in 2007, and that marriage was recognized in New York.

However, it was not recognized by the federal government. One result, according to lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, was a $350,000 federal tax on Spyer's estate when she died in 2009 that Windsor would not have had to pay if she were in a heterosexual marriage.

Windsor said she was elated by the Justice Department announcement.

"My only regret is that my beloved late spouse ... isn't here today to share in this historic moment," she said. "But in my heart, I feel that she knows."

The attorney general said the department will immediately bring the policy change to the attention of the federal courts now hearing Windsor's challenge in New York City and another case in Connecticut that challenges the federal government's denial of marriage-related protections for federal Family Medical Leave Act benefits, federal laws for private pension plans and federal laws concerning state pension plans.

Those two courts are in the nation's 2nd judicial circuit, where the circuit court has not ruled on the standard for judging this law. In Massachusetts, where the U.S. 1st Circuit Court has accepted the lower standard of scrutiny, which requires only a "rational basis" for the law, a federal district judge found the act to be unconstitutional. On appeal last month, the Justice Department argued in court papers that the Defense of Marriage Act was Congress' reasonable response to a debate among the states on same-sex marriage.

Jerry Savoy, a Connecticut man in a same-sex marriage who is among those challenging the law, welcomed Obama's action, saying he and his spouse were "no different than any other family living on our street." Savoy, a lawyer for a federal agency, said that because of the law he cannot include his spouse on his employer-provided health insurance.

___

Associated Press writers David Crary in New York and Stephen Singer in Hartford, Conn., contributed to this

flo
02-24-2011, 06:55 AM
Boy, Kentucky, you are sooo behind. We had a lively discussion on this very topic (OT, that's true) earlier today.

Here's a good place to start :-) (http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=154116#post154116)

KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-25-2011, 12:32 AM
Yeah but I figured instead of hijacking some thread on a different topic, I would give it one of it's own!

Crisco
02-25-2011, 01:02 AM
Obama is biding his time till his reelection then all HELL will break loose.

flo
02-25-2011, 03:28 AM
Yeah but I figured instead of hijacking some thread on a different topic, I would give it one of it's own!

Good idea, I still think it's an outrage.

I think Obama has about a 25% chance of being reelected. Maybe less. The indies are leaving him and what few repubs that voted for him lost faith in his empty promises some time ago, IMO.

I think the only way he wins is if the Repubs put up an awful candidate again.

Rev
02-25-2011, 03:59 AM
i think this crap with the unions is gonna hurt the republicans if the Dems spin it the right way. VERY bad time for this to happen.

flo
02-25-2011, 06:23 AM
i think this crap with the unions is gonna hurt the republicans if the Dems spin it the right way. VERY bad time for this to happen.

Hey, Rev, I'll take odds on that. :)

Crisco
02-25-2011, 01:27 PM
The worst part about elimanating unions from the states is salaries will drop considerably.

The middle class is disappearing in this country.

I hope eventually jobs and incomes will balance out.

Chris F
02-25-2011, 05:15 PM
The worst part about elimanating unions from the states is salaries will drop considerably.

The middle class is disappearing in this country.

I hope eventually jobs and incomes will balance out.

There is no data supporting that idea. That is a common lie the unions use to "protect" themselves but there is just no proof that is the case. Wages should be dictated by the market and the employees worth not the gov. The middle class is disappearing because it is easier to live of uncle SAM than to put in an honest days work, and thanks to the unions most decent jobs have been outsourced to make it more profitable for the elite class. All unions do anymore is act as a liberal propaganda machine. They bully their member to vote DNC and even have forced some to have DEM signs in their yard and such. The Teachers unions have destroyed our school systems by letting the feds pollute it, and now they teach to pass a test and not to educate. When I served on staff of a state senator I heard hours upon hours of testimony from both sides. The fact is unions have outlived their initial good.

NateR
02-25-2011, 05:45 PM
The worst part about elimanating unions from the states is salaries will drop considerably.

The middle class is disappearing in this country.

I hope eventually jobs and incomes will balance out.

But no one can legally pay below minimum wage, unions or no unions. You do realize that a minimum wage worker in the United States is still considered one of the richest people in the world? If someone is not living outside of their means, then minimum wage is plenty.

If anything, destroying the unions will cause the unemployment rate in this country to plummet. Sure the jobs will be for lower wages and less benefits, but at least people will have jobs.

Miss Foxy
02-25-2011, 05:51 PM
But no one can legally pay below minimum wage, unions or no unions. You do realize that a minimum wage worker in the United States is still considered one of the richest people in the world? If someone is not living outside of their means, then minimum wage is plenty.If anything, destroying the unions will cause the unemployment rate in this country to plummet. Sure the jobs will be for lower wages and less benefits, but at least people will have jobs.

Not here in California. I pay $1150 for a small place utilities not included.. In a mediocre area..

County Mike
02-25-2011, 05:54 PM
Not here in California. I pay $1150 for a small place utilities not included.. In a mediocre area..

Still better than the people living in huts or shacks around the world. That's what he meant by "minimum wage in America is richer than most of the world".

Miss Foxy
02-25-2011, 06:01 PM
Still better than the people living in huts or shacks around the world. That's what he meant by "minimum wage in America is richer than most of the world".

I can argue that working for a Union Local 7600 to be specific was much better than working where I work now...I work for a company that does not provide raises, we are in healthcare yet have horrible benefits, and also lays off their employees then re-hires and pay a few dollars lower.. When I was in a union none of that happened! At all.. We had our cost of living raise and annual review raise.. Our benefits were awesome..

Crisco
02-25-2011, 06:04 PM
But no one can legally pay below minimum wage, unions or no unions. You do realize that a minimum wage worker in the United States is still considered one of the richest people in the world? If someone is not living outside of their means, then minimum wage is plenty.

If anything, destroying the unions will cause the unemployment rate in this country to plummet. Sure the jobs will be for lower wages and less benefits, but at least people will have jobs.

I'm sorry Nate 7 bucks an hour is not a living wage.


Maybe in the midwest where the cost of living is lower.

an a legion of people making 7 bucks an hour are not going to be able to push the economy.

Crisco
02-25-2011, 06:07 PM
Still better than the people living in huts or shacks around the world. That's what he meant by "minimum wage in America is richer than most of the world".

and I agree with the statement but what he hell is the point in being an American if you have no chance at the dream?


Your a corporate guy you see it just as much as I do.

I know as conservatives we like free market and all but lets not sugar coat it. Corporations are EVIL. They are all about persuit of profit and power just as much as the government.

Chris F
02-25-2011, 06:15 PM
I'm sorry Nate 7 bucks an hour is not a living wage.


Maybe in the midwest where the cost of living is lower.

an a legion of people making 7 bucks an hour are not going to be able to push the economy.

Crisco most places where the cost of living is higher do not start at the minium wage anyhow. They would not find workers if they did. Besides that if you need more money than get a second job. A little work never killed anyone. I have to work two jobs becuase I do nto have the $$$ to live. Sure I hate it but until the economy changes I have no choice. The Market should dictate the wage nothing else.

Chris F
02-25-2011, 06:17 PM
and I agree with the statement but what he hell is the point in being an American if you have no chance at the dream?


Your a corporate guy you see it just as much as I do.

I know as conservatives we like free market and all but lets not sugar coat it. Corporations are EVIL. They are all about persuit of profit and power just as much as the government.

Low wgae does not equal the end of the dream. I know a guy who worked 3 jobs slept 3 hours a night till he could afford to start his business and now he is a doing very well. Hard work is the real American dream. What we sugar coat today is that you are entitled to the dream without working for it.

Miss Foxy
02-25-2011, 06:21 PM
Low wgae does not equal the end of the dream. I know a guy who worked 3 jobs slept 3 hours a night till he could afford to start his business and now he is a doing very well. Hard work is the real American dream. What we sugar coat today is that you are entitled to the dream without working for it.

Hard work? I am gonna so toot my own horn!! Raised 2 kids alone while ex was always deployed and worked full-time went to college also so I do know a few things about hard work!! However working too much doesn't work for me right now I have a full-time job and have children at home that need me when I come home so I am gonna complain in lieu of working another job to have latch key kids and end up being a mother of a teen mother or gang member..

flo
02-25-2011, 07:09 PM
There is no data supporting that idea. That is a common lie the unions use to "protect" themselves but there is just no proof that is the case. Wages should be dictated by the market and the employees worth not the gov. The middle class is disappearing because it is easier to live of uncle SAM than to put in an honest days work, and thanks to the unions most decent jobs have been outsourced to make it more profitable for the elite class. All unions do anymore is act as a liberal propaganda machine. They bully their member to vote DNC and even have forced some to have DEM signs in their yard and such. The Teachers unions have destroyed our school systems by letting the feds pollute it, and now they teach to pass a test and not to educate. When I served on staff of a state senator I heard hours upon hours of testimony from both sides. The fact is unions have outlived their initial good.

I totally agree.

:ninja: omg...what next...dogs and cats getting along...peace in the middle east...Frank Mir and Brock BFF?

Public employee union wages surpass private sector wages. Ditto benefits and they contribute less to those benefits and retirement packages than private sector workers. Remember Bell, California? The middle class has had it and our states are broke largely because of it.

flo
02-25-2011, 07:15 PM
Yes, minimum wage here is better than wages in much of the rest of the world but it's not meant to be a living wage. The minimum wage applies (for the most part, I know there are exceptions), to enty level workers. Just check the unemployment rate among teens. We had a family restaurant and paid minimum wage to the high school kids we hired. If they worked hard and did a good job, they got raises.

If we were required to pay teens a living wage, we wouldn't have stayed in business long.

Tyburn
02-25-2011, 07:33 PM
But no one can legally pay below minimum wage, unions or no unions. You do realize that a minimum wage worker in the United States is still considered one of the richest people in the world? If someone is not living outside of their means, then minimum wage is plenty.

If anything, destroying the unions will cause the unemployment rate in this country to plummet. Sure the jobs will be for lower wages and less benefits, but at least people will have jobs.

The Minimum wage is no longer sufficient in England to live on. Dont know about America though.

Has Barack Obama got a new advisor or something? The reason I ask is that from the start of this year he's suddenly stopped acting like a Orator and suddenly started to actually act like a politician. Either he's suddenly grown a completely new brain...or else someone behind the scenes with alot of knowledge and experience has suddenly started to tell him what to do.

He's now acting politically...which is most unlike him. He's refused to give a statement about the Arab Revolt...which is a wise thing to do...but a thing he isnt clever enough to realize based on his past term in office...so someone, somewhere has told him not to speak. Now he is trying to gain support from a certain sector of the community because he's just realized without a sudden transformation...he wont make it in 2012. Someone...someone very high up, and increadibly clever...lots of experience...has been helpping him a lot since his mid term disastor.

Personally, I think its too little, too late...I think most Americans will never forget the health reform...I think even another natural...or...unnatural disastor hitting the US before the end of his Tenure would not be enough to save him. I would be VERY supprised if he is Still in Office after next year.

I have to say...if I were a Democrat...I would have to consider whether it would be worth putting the effort in to save him...or really, whether it be high time for the party to support someone else...because the Democrats wholistically havent looked too bad...because of their large liberal range, it hasnt been easy for Obama even when he had majorities everywhere...there is plenty of time for a faction to begin promoting another Democrat...if they did then I dont know for certain the Republicans would win the next General...but I think it would ruin Obama...if he does nothing to quell it, he looks weak, and he loooses...if he does something to quell it then the Democratic party looks as fragmented as it did when half supported Clinton during the Primaries...and this far away from the ellection it would be like a party civil war...and the Republicans would bearly have to do anything except not get involved with the scandel to be seen as the only party capable of running the country.

People may still blame George Bush for the Iraq War...but that was a moral point that didnt effect them personally...I think...even though its not his fault, people will blame the state of the economy on Barack Obama...who inherited a tragic inbox, lets be honnest...but because he hasnt done anything to make matters better...he looks...useless...and the lack of jobs, and the closure of businesses, and the loss of livelihoods...they effect people on a day to day basis...far more then a war on the other side of the world...it feels more personal when your bank account is low, and your having to buy insurance you dont want or need.

Only the Militant Gays will get behind him...half of them will see that this is so obviously a con just to get support going into the ellection...and rather then aggreeing and being nice to them...its actually an insult to homosexuals everywhere...on such a tender issue, a senior politician has decided to use a ploy to get votes...its not nice. Its also not a characteristically Obama thing to do...mark my words...it comes from a more senior (probably in age) democrat behind the scenes who is dedicating his life to trying to get Obama re-ellected, and has been since the mid term defeat. :ninja:

flo
02-25-2011, 07:42 PM
Has Barack Obama got a new advisor or something? The reason I ask is that from the start of this year he's suddenly stopped acting like a Orator and suddenly started to actually act like a politician. Either he's suddenly grown a completely new brain...or else someone behind the scenes with alot of knowledge and experience has suddenly started to tell him what to do.

He's now acting politically...which is most unlike him.
Yes, he's in campaign mode.

Tyburn
02-25-2011, 07:44 PM
Yes, he's in campaign mode.

But this wasnt the campaign mode that won him the office in the first place. That was based on being an orator...he's not trying to talk his way back into office...now he's actually being a politician...its...bizzare :blink:

Chris F
02-25-2011, 07:51 PM
Hard work? I am gonna so toot my own horn!! Raised 2 kids alone while ex was always deployed and worked full-time went to college also so I do know a few things about hard work!! However working too much doesn't work for me right now I have a full-time job and have children at home that need me when I come home so I am gonna complain in lieu of working another job to have latch key kids and end up being a mother of a teen mother or gang member..

Yeah I hear you and that is a choice oyu make and the smae one I would make in your shoes. Good raised kids is a part of that AMerican dream as well. If I were in your shoes you bet I would preder to eeke by than let someone else raise my kids. This is a big reason we do not have more.

Chris F
02-25-2011, 07:52 PM
Yes, minimum wage here is better than wages in much of the rest of the world but it's not meant to be a living wage. The minimum wage applies (for the most part, I know there are exceptions), to enty level workers. Just check the unemployment rate among teens. We had a family restaurant and paid minimum wage to the high school kids we hired. If they worked hard and did a good job, they got raises.

If we were required to pay teens a living wage, we wouldn't have stayed in business long.

excellent example

KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-26-2011, 11:51 PM
I can argue that working for a Union Local 7600 to be specific was much better than working where I work now...I work for a company that does not provide raises, we are in healthcare yet have horrible benefits, and also lays off their employees then re-hires and pay a few dollars lower.. When I was in a union none of that happened! At all.. We had our cost of living raise and annual review raise.. Our benefits were awesome..

Great till the company goes out of business or overseas! Also shouldn't the members that pay the dues have a say in what candidate the Union donates money to? The original idea behind Unions was good but now they are untrustworthy thugs. The modern Union boss cares more about power than the members who pay the dues! Then when they cause a company to go out of business they hurt alot of people. The public sector Unions just might be the worst though!

Buzzard
02-27-2011, 04:52 AM
There is no data supporting that idea. That is a common lie the unions use to "protect" themselves but there is just no proof that is the case.

Actually Chris, there is a lot of data showing that union workers earn more than their nonunion workers.

Info (http://www.google.com/search?q=union+vs+non+union+wages&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

At least 6 of the first 10 or so links have info showing such. I know for a fact that in my field of work, my union wage is higher than the nonunion wage for my job.


Wages should be dictated by the market and the employees worth not the gov. The middle class is disappearing because it is easier to live of uncle SAM than to put in an honest days work, and thanks to the unions most decent jobs have been outsourced to make it more profitable for the elite class.

Huh? It's the union's fault because the greedy corporate machine wants to line their own pockets at the worker's expense? We differ on opinions here.


All unions do anymore is act as a liberal propaganda machine. They bully their member to vote DNC and even have forced some to have DEM signs in their yard and such.

Generalize much? In my 24 years as a union member, never have I been bullied to vote DNC. Do you have any links to union members being forced by their union to have DEM signs in their yards? I have trouble believing it, but hey, anything is possible.

I'm sorry Nate 7 bucks an hour is not a living wage.

Maybe in the midwest where the cost of living is lower.

an a legion of people making 7 bucks an hour are not going to be able to push the economy.

Wow Crisco, I find you and I in agreement on many more issues lately.
Sorry you and I got off on the wrong foot.

Crisco most places where the cost of living is higher do not start at the minium wage anyhow. They would not find workers if they did.

Any documentation to support your claim?

Besides that if you need more money than get a second job. A little work never killed anyone. I have to work two jobs becuase I do nto have the $$$ to live. Sure I hate it but until the economy changes I have no choice. The Market should dictate the wage nothing else.

What do you do when the market conditions call for a raise for you but your corporate bosses decides to pocket all the cash for themselves instead of giving you a living wage? What happens when you are fired unfairly and lose your house only because a supervisor doesn't like you? Unions still serve a valid purpose and it's a shame that only the bad news is what you hear. Of course, bad news is the only news that sells.

But no one can legally pay below minimum wage, unions or no unions.

Sorry, but you are incorrect here Nate. Waiters and waitresses are paid below the minimum wage and have to rely on tip income to fill in the missing money. If the tips aren't there, the employee makes less than minimum wage but then the employer has to make up the difference. There are other exceptions too. I do get what you are saying though and not trying to be that picky but.........

Dept of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq25.htm)

Exemptions (http://jobsearch.about.com/od/minimumwage/a/minimumwage.htm)

You do realize that a minimum wage worker in the United States is still considered one of the richest people in the world? If someone is not living outside of their means, then minimum wage is plenty.

Maybe in Somalia. When did they legalize weed where you live? <--------Insert laughing emoticon here.



If anything, destroying the unions will cause the unemployment rate in this country to plummet. Sure the jobs will be for lower wages and less benefits, but at least people will have jobs.

Care to explain how you figure this to work?

Mark
02-27-2011, 05:48 AM
If someone is not living outside of their means, then minimum wage is plenty.

Do you think you can raise a family on that?

NateR
02-27-2011, 06:12 AM
Do you think you can raise a family on that?

Considering how little kids really need to prosper and have happy childhoods, yes of course you can.

Here's the Global Rich List, where you can enter your annual income and it will tell you how rich you are compared to the rest of the world:
http://www.globalrichlist.com/index.php

Some examples:
A single American living at the poverty level of $10,294 annual income (in 2006) would be in the top richest 13.25% people in the world.

An American worker earning the minimum wage of $6.55 (July 2008) would be in the top richest 12.64% people in the world.

The median income per household member of $26,036 (in 2006) would be in the top richest 9.47%.

An American making the average hourly wage of $17.88 ($35,760 in 2008) would be in the top richest 4.4% people in the world.

A U.S. high school teacher earning the average salary of $52,450 (in 2007) would be among the top richest 0.96% people in the world.

A UAW worker making the average hourly wage of $39.68 (in 2007 with overtime, holiday and vacation pay, etc.) would be in the top 0.79% richest people in the world.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-rich-are-you-even-minimum-wage.html

I made $13,942 working part-time at Walmart last year which puts me in the top 12.46% percentile of the richest people on the planet.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-27-2011, 06:16 AM
Considering how little kids really need to prosper and have happy childhoods, yes of course you can.

Here's the Global Rich List, where you can enter your annual income and it will tell you how rich you are compared to the rest of the world:
http://www.globalrichlist.com/index.php

Some examples:
A single American living at the poverty level of $10,294 annual income (in 2006) would be in the top richest 13.25% people in the world.

An American worker earning the minimum wage of $6.55 (July 2008) would be in the top richest 12.64% people in the world.

The median income per household member of $26,036 (in 2006) would be in the top richest 9.47%.

An American making the average hourly wage of $17.88 ($35,760 in 2008) would be in the top richest 4.4% people in the world.

A U.S. high school teacher earning the average salary of $52,450 (in 2007) would be among the top richest 0.96% people in the world.

A UAW worker making the average hourly wage of $39.68 (in 2007 with overtime, holiday and vacation pay, etc.) would be in the top 0.79% richest people in the world.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-rich-are-you-even-minimum-wage.html

I made $13,942 working part-time at Walmart last year which puts me in the top 12.46% percentile of the richest people on the planet.

Y'All must not eat much!

NateR
02-27-2011, 06:40 AM
Y'All must not eat much!

Americans not only eat too much junk food, we eat too much food period. Most Americans today couldn't survive the food rationing that Americans had to endure during World War 2.

Chris F
02-27-2011, 07:47 AM
Actually Chris, there is a lot of data showing that union workers earn more than their nonunion workers.There is no data anywhere that areas that have pushed right to work acts have seen a decrease in wages. That is a pile of crap and if you had the data you would have posted it

Info (http://www.google.com/search?q=union+vs+non+union+wages&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

At least 6 of the first 10 or so links have info showing such. I know for a fact that in my field of work, my union wage is higher than the nonunion wage for my job.No was argued that you are building a strawman. Get on the smae page before you pull out the stick sir



Huh? It's the union's fault because the greedy corporate machine wants to line their own pockets at the worker's expense? We differ on opinions here.Not the workers the union boss who want to par their coffer to push socialist canidates



Generalize much? In my 24 years as a union member, never have I been bullied to vote DNC. Do you have any links to union members being forced by their union to have DEM signs in their yards? I have trouble believing it, but hey, anything is possible.you are one person and I sat through hours upon hours upon hours of testimony so are you calling all these men and women liars? Sure there is always an exception to the rule, but if it happens at all it is to much



Wow Crisco, I find you and I in agreement on many more issues lately.
Sorry you and I got off on the wrong foot.



Any documentation to support your claim?
17 years in the resturant industry where min wage workers are typically the norm. Private companies do not realse their info so there would be no documentation and it is not like liberal such as yourself ever care about fact you always find a way to spin them anyhow


What do you do when the market conditions call for a raise for you but your corporate bosses decides to pocket all the cash for themselves instead of giving you a living wage? What happens when you are fired unfairly and lose your house only because a supervisor doesn't like you? Unions still serve a valid purpose and it's a shame that only the bad news is what you hear. Of course, bad news is the only news that sells.
Typical union talking point and frankly a pile of horse crap. most states are at will and if you agree to work with the risk it is you own doing. And free market has always did more for the worker than a forced wage. Min wage never has nor ever was intended to be a living wage. If you work for that wage and intend to support a family you are kidding yourself and need a new job or a second on.


Sorry, but you are incorrect here Nate. Waiters and waitresses are paid below the minimum wage and have to rely on tip income to fill in the missing money. If the tips aren't there, the employee makes less than minimum wage but then the employer has to make up the difference. There are other exceptions too. I do get what you are saying though and not trying to be that picky but.........

Dept of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq25.htm)

Exemptions (http://jobsearch.about.com/od/minimumwage/a/minimumwage.htm)
Another pile of crap buzzard. It is against the law to do this and if the tip fall short by law the company must make up the differnece or they will be sued. I have done this for 17 years so top lying through your teeth


Maybe in Somalia. When did they legalize weed where you live? <--------Insert laughing emoticon here.




Care to explain how you figure this to work?

answers are in red above, Buzzard your argument is so full of starwmen and holes I am not sure why you even bothered to post it.

Buzzard
02-27-2011, 07:55 AM
Americans not only eat too much junk food, we eat too much food period. Most Americans today couldn't survive the food rationing that Americans had to endure during World War 2.

Some of us Americans don't suffer from gluttony even though we could. I can probably still fit in my 29" or 30" waist size jeans. I have a hard time floating in a pool unless it is sea water, and I'm probably in better physical shape than most people, even with my many injuries and surgeries at my ripe old age.

Mark
02-27-2011, 02:04 PM
Considering how little kids really need to prosper and have happy childhoods, yes of course you can.

I have some experience with raising kids and I don't think a single mom could raise two kids especially paying for daycare.


I made $13,942 working part-time at Walmart last year which puts me in the top 12.46% percentile of the richest people on the planet.

Your thinking wrong. You are thinking planet, we are talking USA. You are taking what you are making in the USA and comparing it to what people make in Africa, Afghanistan and all the 3rd world countries.

NateR
02-27-2011, 03:37 PM
Your thinking wrong. You are thinking planet, we are talking USA. You are taking what you are making in the USA and comparing it to what people make in Africa, Afghanistan and all the 3rd world countries.

In general most Americans are pretty spoiled. If you have a place to sleep every night, more than one change of clothing, and can afford more than one meal per day, then you are one of the richest people in the world.

bradwright
02-27-2011, 03:53 PM
In general most Americans are pretty spoiled. If you have a place to sleep every night, more than one change of clothing, and can afford more than one meal per day, then you are one of the richest people in the world.

I'm not sure spoiled would be the best word to use...maybe fortunate but not spoiled.

most people work very hard to provide a comfortable life for themselves and their families.

people in some countries just dont have the same opportunities so its very hard to compare your lifestyle and my lifestyle to someone in a third world country.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-27-2011, 06:52 PM
In general most Americans are pretty spoiled. If you have a place to sleep every night, more than one change of clothing, and can afford more than one meal per day, then you are one of the richest people in the world.

But as Americans we should have the chance to earn that lifestyle you call spoiled! I believe in a fair wage but it should be reasonably fair to both Employee and Employer! I believe that the modern Union goes beyond their original purpose. Originally they were to keep the worker from being abused but now they seem to be full of Democrat politicians who cause job losses!

Chris F
02-27-2011, 07:28 PM
I'm not sure spoiled would be the best word to use...maybe fortunate but not spoiled.

most people work very hard to provide a comfortable life for themselves and their families.

people in some countries just dont have the same opportunities so its very hard to compare your lifestyle and my lifestyle to someone in a third world country.

I agree you have the right to do that but the emploteer should have the right to decide how much you are worth and not be forced by law to pay a set wage. Also I agree with Nate people today think they are entitled a wage to keep them at the same level as the Joneses. Also with the EIC tax creidt people low wage turns into much more especially if they popped out a couple of kids.

NateR
02-27-2011, 08:24 PM
I'm not sure spoiled would be the best word to use...maybe fortunate but not spoiled.

most people work very hard to provide a comfortable life for themselves and their families.

people in some countries just dont have the same opportunities so its very hard to compare your lifestyle and my lifestyle to someone in a third world country.

Yes, America is fortunate and blessed with what GOD has provided for us. However, when we view those same blessings with a sense of entitlement and ungratefulness, then we become spoiled.

NateR
02-27-2011, 08:27 PM
But as Americans we should have the chance to earn that lifestyle you call spoiled! I believe in a fair wage but it should be reasonably fair to both Employee and Employer! I believe that the modern Union goes beyond their original purpose. Originally they were to keep the worker from being abused but now they seem to be full of Democrat politicians who cause job losses!

I agree, that's a lifestyle that people should be allowed to earn through hard work, not have it granted to them by governments or unions.

Buzzard
02-27-2011, 08:46 PM
answers are in red above, Buzzard your argument is so full of starwmen and holes I am not sure why you even bothered to post it.

Actually Chris, there is a lot of data showing that union workers earn more than their nonunion workers.

There is no data anywhere that areas that have pushed right to work acts have seen a decrease in wages. That is a pile of crap and if you had the data you would have posted it

I never made such a claim. I claimed union members earned more than their non union counterparts.

At least 6 of the first 10 or so links have info showing such. I know for a fact that in my field of work, my union wage is higher than the nonunion wage for my job.

No was argued that you are building a strawman. Get on the smae page before you pull out the stick sir

Huh? If you paid attention in school, perhaps you could get your point across in writing. Crisco stated
The worst part about elimanating unions from the states is salaries will drop considerably.
The middle class is disappearing in this country.

You ChrisF stated
There is no data supporting that idea. That is a common lie the unions use to "protect" themselves but there is just no proof that is the case.

There is data showing the middle class in America is dwindling, you're just unwilling to look at it, or too dishonest to acknowledge it.


Wages should be dictated by the market and the employees worth not the gov.

The unions represent the labor and ensures that the employees are paid fair market wages. Granted, there are some bad eggs in the union basket, but also bad eggs in the corporate world. The government doesn't dictate the wages that union members receive. Your statement implies that it does.

Huh? It's the union's fault because the greedy corporate machine wants to line their own pockets at the worker's expense? We differ on opinions here.

Not the workers the union boss who want to par their coffer to push socialist canidates

What does par their coffer mean? You need to give up on the buzzword "socialist." It's overused and and a label you readily place upon people you disagree with imo.

Generalize much? In my 24 years as a union member, never have I been bullied to vote DNC. Do you have any links to union members being forced by their union to have DEM signs in their yards? I have trouble believing it, but hey, anything is possible.

you are one person and I sat through hours upon hours upon hours of testimony so are you calling all these men and women liars? Sure there is always an exception to the rule, but if it happens at all it is to much

Yes I am one person, glad you noticed. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I just asked you for proof and you can't give anything other than what you supposedly heard. I don't know for a fact if you heard things correctly or not, so I kindly ask you for evidence to back up your claim that I can peruse. You offered nothing showing that you heard in Senate hearings that union leaders forced members to have DEM signs in their yard.

Any documentation to support your claim?

17 years in the resturant industry where min wage workers are typically the norm. Private companies do not realse their info so there would be no documentation and it is not like liberal such as yourself ever care about fact you always find a way to spin them anyhow

Your anecdotal evidence shows nothing to support our claim. My link did. Look for yourself, I provided you the link. There are exemptions to the minimum wage and I proved it. You labeling me a liberal in a derogatory way shows that you have no clue as to my political stance.

There is always documentation showing how much a person gets paid, so you are the lying one here.

What do you do when the market conditions call for a raise for you but your corporate bosses decides to pocket all the cash for themselves instead of giving you a living wage? What happens when you are fired unfairly and lose your house only because a supervisor doesn't like you? Unions still serve a valid purpose and it's a shame that only the bad news is what you hear. Of course, bad news is the only news that sells.

Typical union talking point and frankly a pile of horse crap. most states are at will and if you agree to work with the risk it is you own doing.

Do you even know what an at will state is? All the more reasons why unions are necessary. Keeps scumbag bosses from firing an employee just because they don't like them.

Sorry, but you are incorrect here Nate. Waiters and waitresses are paid below the minimum wage and have to rely on tip income to fill in the missing money. If the tips aren't there, the employee makes less than minimum wage but then the employer has to make up the difference. There are other exceptions too. I do get what you are saying though and not trying to be that picky but.........

Dept of Labor

Exemptions

Another pile of crap buzzard. It is against the law to do this and if the tip fall short by law the company must make up the differnece or they will be sued. I have done this for 17 years so top lying through your teeth

I proved my point Chris, you are now being intentionally dishonest or stupid, which is it? I stated that if a waitress doesn't receive the minimum wage through tips the employer has to make up the difference, so you owe me an apology for saying I am lying through my teeth.

Sorry, but you are incorrect here Nate. Waiters and waitresses are paid below the minimum wage and have to rely on tip income to fill in the missing money. If the tips aren't there, the employee makes less than minimum wage but then the employer has to make up the difference. There are other exceptions too. I do get what you are saying though and not trying to be that picky but.........

Mark
02-28-2011, 12:18 AM
I am a teamster (local 525) I drive for Fuller brother Redi-mix. In a town 12 miles away there is a redi-mix there they are non-union. We make about 8 dollars more a hour, good medical and have retirement. I think most jobs pay more being union.

Bonnie
02-28-2011, 02:07 AM
Yes, America is fortunate and blessed with what GOD has provided for us. However, when we view those same blessings with a sense of entitlement and ungratefulness, then we become spoiled.

Compared to third world countries, we have much and are spoiled. And, I agree with Kentucky, like most things that start out with a good purpose, unions have gone beyond that to the opposite end unfortunately; however, I think there has to be some balance of power and a level of protection for workers to their employers.

I agree with Mark, there is no way a single mother with children can afford day care along with other necessities (housing, clothing, food, medical...) on mininum wage. I think it would be hard for a single person to do.

I get what your point is, but as long as the cost of living keeps going up, there has to be a fair increase to the minimum wage. There have been times in the past, when it's stayed the same for quite a period of time yet Congress managed to give themselves raises. I don't think that's right, do you?

If you're rich by those numbers you quoted earlier, our representatives must really be fat cats sitting in their catbird seats.

NateR
02-28-2011, 03:03 AM
I am a teamster (local 525) I drive for Fuller brother Redi-mix. In a town 12 miles away there is a redi-mix there they are non-union. We make about 8 dollars more a hour, good medical and have retirement. I think most jobs pay more being union.

Which is great when times are good, but not so great when the economy is bad, because companies won't necessarily be able to pay the increased union salaries. Thus forcing them to lay off workers or go bankrupt. The unions were a major factor in causing GM and Chrysler's downfall a couple years back.

Buzzard
02-28-2011, 03:19 AM
Which is great when times are good, but not so great when the economy is bad, because companies won't necessarily be able to pay the increased union salaries. Thus forcing them to lay off workers or go bankrupt. The unions were a major factor in causing GM and Chrysler's downfall a couple years back.

When the economy tanked many years ago, my union members voted for a decrease in pay to keep jobs. Of course the CEO's awarded themselves millions in bonuses while we gave back 15% of our wages. So I am speaking from experience. What is your experience with unions? The downfall for many of the companies is the management, not the labor. The labor does the job, the management pisses away the money.

Mark
02-28-2011, 03:31 AM
Which is great when times are good, but not so great when the economy is bad, because companies won't necessarily be able to pay the increased union salaries. Thus forcing them to lay off workers or go bankrupt. The unions were a major factor in causing GM and Chrysler's downfall a couple years back.

I know a little about running a buisness, and i know that you have to have some money saved for bad times. I dont think it was the workers fault, i think it was the management or mismanagement.

Mark
02-28-2011, 03:34 AM
The unions were a major factor in causing GM and Chrysler's downfall a couple years back.

I get the feeling that you dont want a middle class anymore?

Chris F
02-28-2011, 03:54 AM
I never made such a claim. I claimed union members earned more than their non union counterparts.





Huh? If you paid attention in school, perhaps you could get your point across in writing. Crisco stated


You ChrisF stated


There is data showing the middle class in America is dwindling, you're just unwilling to look at it, or too dishonest to acknowledge it.




The unions represent the labor and ensures that the employees are paid fair market wages. Granted, there are some bad eggs in the union basket, but also bad eggs in the corporate world. The government doesn't dictate the wages that union members receive. Your statement implies that it does.





What does par their coffer mean? You need to give up on the buzzword "socialist." It's overused and and a label you readily place upon people you disagree with imo.





Yes I am one person, glad you noticed. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I just asked you for proof and you can't give anything other than what you supposedly heard. I don't know for a fact if you heard things correctly or not, so I kindly ask you for evidence to back up your claim that I can peruse. You offered nothing showing that you heard in Senate hearings that union leaders forced members to have DEM signs in their yard.





Your anecdotal evidence shows nothing to support our claim. My link did. Look for yourself, I provided you the link. There are exemptions to the minimum wage and I proved it. You labeling me a liberal in a derogatory way shows that you have no clue as to my political stance.

There is always documentation showing how much a person gets paid, so you are the lying one here.





Do you even know what an at will state is? All the more reasons why unions are necessary. Keeps scumbag bosses from firing an employee just because they don't like them.





I proved my point Chris, you are now being intentionally dishonest or stupid, which is it? I stated that if a waitress doesn't receive the minimum wage through tips the employer has to make up the difference, so you owe me an apology for saying I am lying through my teeth.

Buzzard you missed the point fully and did nothing here but build more strawmen and built a horrid Converse accident. So I am not going to waste my time since you seem unwilling to discuss from the same page. As for an apology when you prove to me what you siad is true I will apologize. But if you think I will apologize based on a Converse accident you are crazier than I thought.

Chris F
02-28-2011, 03:56 AM
When the economy tanked many years ago, my union members voted for a decrease in pay to keep jobs. Of course the CEO's awarded themselves millions in bonuses while we gave back 15% of our wages. So I am speaking from experience. What is your experience with unions? The downfall for many of the companies is the management, not the labor. The labor does the job, the management pisses away the money.

Take a class in economics and stop arguing from emotion and try a little thing called reason.

Chris F
02-28-2011, 04:00 AM
I know a little about running a buisness, and i know that you have to have some money saved for bad times. I dont think it was the workers fault, i think it was the management or mismanagement.

same thing Mark. The economics of it is the unions fault not necessarily the workers themselves but the Unions. They have driven the cost of doing business so high companies leave or shutdown. We used to be protected until Clinton signed NAFTA. Now economics have changed but the unions have not. Management has to meets goals and makes a profit. We are a capitalist society not a populist one. :)

Chris F
02-28-2011, 04:03 AM
I get the feeling that you dont want a middle class anymore?

That is really a huge piece of proverbial propaganda Mark. In Captialism there is the haves and the have nots. We are a bucket of crabs we all try to climb on each other and pull others down inorder to get out of the bucket. In reality there is only the working class and the elitiest. Media has for years sold us a bill of goods that there is this thing called a middle class. What is growing is the working class because it is much hareder now to get out of the bucket

Mark
02-28-2011, 04:17 AM
same thing Mark. The economics of it is the unions fault not necessarily the workers themselves but the Unions. They have driven the cost of doing business so high companies leave or shutdown. We used to be protected until Clinton signed NAFTA. Now economics have changed but the unions have not. Management has to meets goals and makes a profit. We are a capitalist society not a populist one. :)

your opinion.

Buzzard
02-28-2011, 04:22 AM
Buzzard you missed the point fully and did nothing here but build more strawmen and built a horrid Converse accident. So I am not going to waste my time since you seem unwilling to discuss from the same page. As for an apology when you prove to me what you siad is true I will apologize. But if you think I will apologize based on a Converse accident you are crazier than I thought.

You called me a liar and I proved you wrong. I know you aren't stupid and I pointed out your lie. No converse accident there. Run away brave Sir Robin.

I am willing to discuss things, as shown by my lengthy reply. You on the other hand aren't.

I'll have some fun. Put out your points in questions to me and I'll make sure I answer them, or are you afraid that I will answer the questions.

Mark
02-28-2011, 04:29 AM
You do realize that a minimum wage worker in the United States is still considered one of the richest people in the world? If someone is not living outside of their means, then minimum wage is plenty.

If anything, destroying the unions will cause the unemployment rate in this country to plummet. Sure the jobs will be for lower wages and less benefits, but at least people will have jobs.

I made $13,942 working part-time at Walmart last year which puts me in the top 12.46% percentile of the richest people on the planet.

If you have a place to sleep every night, more than one change of clothing, and can afford more than one meal per day, then you are one of the richest people in the world.

This is why I was asking Nate about the middle class.

adamt
02-28-2011, 05:32 AM
if there is a minimum wage so everyone has a chance to make a living maybe there should be a maximum wage.

I think atheletes, actors, ceos and politicians are overpaid.

if the people in charge weren't so busy paying themselves there would be plenty of money to go around and unions wouldn't be necessary

what do ya think about that...

no one can make over 100 grand a year....that sounds fair, that would be a nice living

County Mike
02-28-2011, 11:50 AM
if there is a minimum wage so everyone has a chance to make a living maybe there should be a maximum wage.

I think atheletes, actors, ceos and politicians are overpaid.

if the people in charge weren't so busy paying themselves there would be plenty of money to go around and unions wouldn't be necessary

what do ya think about that...

no one can make over 100 grand a year....that sounds fair, that would be a nice living

100G per year doesn't go as far as you might think.

I do agree that some entertainers are overpaid. When people are making $2 Million per TV episode or $10 million per baseball season, I've got to wonder where that money comes from. That's the main reason I don't buy tickets to NFL, MLB, NHL or NBA games. They all make WAY more than I do so they don't need any of my money.
I will gladly pay to see minor league sports though.

adamt
02-28-2011, 02:02 PM
100G per year doesn't go as far as you might think.



:huh:


who needs more than 100k??

i can live off 750-1000 a month, and actually be quite comfortable, and i have 4 kids, two in diapers, one on formula

bradwright
02-28-2011, 02:13 PM
:huh:


who needs more than 100k??

i can live off 750-1000 a month, and actually be quite comfortable, and i have 4 kids, two in diapers, one on formula

you can live off of 1000 a month with 4 kids ?

how do you pull that off ?

County Mike
02-28-2011, 02:16 PM
:huh:


who needs more than 100k??

i can live off 750-1000 a month, and actually be quite comfortable, and i have 4 kids, two in diapers, one on formula

Depends on your definition of "need".

We can survive just fine on what I make. Nobody will starve, we'll have a roof over our heads, etc.

However, my house is small and very old. To save up the money I NEED to build a bigger, better house I NEED to make more or be very careful with my spending and give it several years of saving just for the down payment. It's all relative.

I'm not claiming poverty or anything, but part of the American dream is that if you work hard you'll be rewarded. I've put in my work. Did well in school, paid my own way through college to earn my Bachelors and then my Masters. Put in about 20 years with the FAA. I might not NEED more money to simply survive but I'm ready to start claiming the dream I've worked for.

Crisco
02-28-2011, 02:32 PM
Depends on your definition of "need".

We can survive just fine on what I make. Nobody will starve, we'll have a roof over our heads, etc.

However, my house is small and very old. To save up the money I NEED to build a bigger, better house I NEED to make more or be very careful with my spending and give it several years of saving just for the down payment. It's all relative.

I'm not claiming poverty or anything, but part of the American dream is that if you work hard you'll be rewarded. I've put in my work. Did well in school, paid my own way through college to earn my Bachelors and then my Masters. Put in about 20 years with the FAA. I might not NEED more money to simply survive but I'm ready to start claiming the dream I've worked for.

exactly

Mark
02-28-2011, 03:09 PM
i can live off 750-1000 a month, and actually be quite comfortable, and i have 4 kids, two in diapers, one on formula

How are you going to pay for the unexpected? What are you going to do for retirement? how are you going to save up a nest egg? Are you going to have anything to give your kids? Are people like you planning on the goverment taking care of them when they get old? This is why people need good paying jobs, for people that think ahead.

Spiritwalker
02-28-2011, 03:43 PM
100G per year doesn't go as far as you might think.

I do agree that some entertainers are overpaid. When people are making $2 Million per TV episode or $10 million per baseball season, I've got to wonder where that money comes from. That's the main reason I don't buy tickets to NFL, MLB, NHL or NBA games. They all make WAY more than I do so they don't need any of my money.
I will gladly pay to see minor league sports though.

+1

I have enjoyed watching my 8 year old and my 10 year old play basketball this season.. WAAAAY more than any NBA game...

J.B.
02-28-2011, 04:48 PM
+1

I have enjoyed watching my 8 year old and my 10 year old play basketball this season.. WAAAAY more than any NBA game...

I am at almost every single one of my 11 year old brothers basketball games, and while I love him to death and it's fun to see the kids having fun, it doesn't compare to watching an NBA game. Especially in today's society with loudmouth parents and watered down rules. Heck, half the time when my brothers team starts whooping the crap out of the other team they stop keeping score so the other kids don't get their feelings hurt. :rolleyes:

Athletes and entertainers are not overpaid in my opinion. We, as a society, spend a lot of money on entertainment, and the people who provide said entertainment should be entitled to the lion's share of the profit. The thing is though, in a lot of cases, athletes and entertainers are severely under-compensated for their contributions relative to what some corporate fat-cat is making for sitting on his ass and doing nothing.

rearnakedchoke
02-28-2011, 04:51 PM
I am at almost every single one of my 11 year old brothers basketball games, and while I love him to death and it's fun to see the kids having fun, it doesn't compare to watching an NBA game. Especially in today's society with loudmouth parents and watered down rules. Heck, half the time when my brothers team starts whooping the crap out of the other team they stop keeping score so the other kids don't get their feelings hurt. :rolleyes:

Athletes and entertainers are not overpaid in my opinion. We, as a society, spend a lot of money on entertainment, and the people who provide said entertainment should be entitled to the lion's share of the profit. The thing is though, in a lot of cases, athletes and entertainers are severely under-compensated for their contributions relative to what some corporate fat-cat is making for sitting on his ass and doing nothing.

i agree .. look at how much the owners are getting paid, these guys get exactly what they deserve

J.B.
02-28-2011, 05:06 PM
i agree .. look at how much the owners are getting paid, these guys get exactly what they deserve

It's kinda like this...

When people buy a Chevy, they don't buy a Chevy because some guy named Dave in Detroit is the one who makes sure the wheels are balanced before the car leaves the factory. They buy it because Chevy is the brand of car they prefer.

However, when the people in Cleveland spent the last 8 years selling out Quicken Loans Arena, they didn't do it because Dan Gilbert put together some sort of amazing product that fans felt they needed to have. They did it because LeBron James was on the team and he may go down as one of the best players ever. They just released a report not to long ago that said after James left the Cavs, the overall value of the team dropped by over 100 million dollars. So, who's really earning all that money?

adamt
02-28-2011, 05:58 PM
you can live off of 1000 a month with 4 kids ?

how do you pull that off ?

well it isn't really fair to make that comparison cause we have a big garden, i hunt, fish and butcher, we have a milk cow and we barter for eggs so our grocery bill is low, we try to keep it at 50 a week, plus diapers and formula and misc at 20 a week for off brand stuff at dollar general


but to answer your question a little bit better we buy generic diapers, we don;t buy alot of junk or pre made food, we don;t have cable or sat, we don't have a fancy car and we don't buy gas to go where we don;t need to go, we shop at good will, and stuff like that

How are you going to pay for the unexpected? i'm merely making a point, i'm certainly not going to die defending this point, i am just adding to the discussion, and my point is, is that people live way over their needs, i do it too, i don't just go out and make my 1000 then sit on my butt, i have savings and investments to pay for the unexpected What are you going to do for retirement? you should know as well as i do that land is the best investment, even better than gold.... sure glad i didn't have money in the stock market, like i was "supposed" tohow are you going to save up a nest egg? how much do you need to retire on? they'll be two of us, our house will be paid for, land will be paid for, and again i am a farmer.... has your dad retired? i hope not, i don't know many farmers that do well when they quit, Are you going to have anything to give your kids? sure, but that doesn't mean anything.... my dad didn't have anything give to him, and i don't base my life on what he may give to me when he dies, i just as soon he lives til a ripe ole age and uses up his whole "nest egg" Are people like you planning on the goverment taking care of them when they get old? come on now mark, you know better than that... my whole point is the government should back off and leave us alone.... that they shouldn't interfere so muchThis is why people need good paying jobs, for people that think ahead.

it isn't just about money though and you're missing my point the government has no business telling us how to operate in the private sector, they have no business setting wages..... minimun or maximum, but why shouldn't they set a maximum now that they set a minimum??? i'm not saying they should, just wondering why?

Why is it okay for some people to make way more than others.... aren't they trying to make it fair by setting a minimum wage? well then wouldn't it be fair for everyone to get paid 200k a year? instead of some of us being lower income and some being billionaires

I am at almost every single one of my 11 year old brothers basketball games, and while I love him to death and it's fun to see the kids having fun, it doesn't compare to watching an NBA game. Especially in today's society with loudmouth parents and watered down rules. Heck, half the time when my brothers team starts whooping the crap out of the other team they stop keeping score so the other kids don't get their feelings hurt. :rolleyes:

Athletes and entertainers are not overpaid in my opinion. We, as a society, spend a lot of money on entertainment, and the people who provide said entertainment should be entitled to the lion's share of the profit. The thing is though, in a lot of cases, athletes and entertainers are severely under-compensated for their contributions relative to what some corporate fat-cat is making for sitting on his ass and doing nothing.

that is the point..... when people spend over 50 percent of their income entertaining themselves they are spoiled, how can it be that people are being paid 3 mil a month to play when others are getting paid minimum wage for hard labor....





i don't even know what we are arguing about.....

i do know people are spoiled.....

unions are just extensions of political parties, usually democrats--- and i don't know how it got that way but i do like the ideas of unions

the government has no business telling people how much to pay, who to hire, where to go, what to make, how many to make, etc....

BUT if they do butt their nose in, they oughta do it fairly and completely, not halfa$$ed.... if they are doing it in the name of fairness then there are alot of people that are overpaid and alot of people that are underpaid

adamt
02-28-2011, 06:00 PM
Depends on your definition of "need".

We can survive just fine on what I make. Nobody will starve, we'll have a roof over our heads, etc.

However, my house is small and very old. To save up the money I NEED to build a bigger, better house I NEED to make more or be very careful with my spending and give it several years of saving just for the down payment. It's all relative.

I'm not claiming poverty or anything, but part of the American dream is that if you work hard you'll be rewarded. I've put in my work. Did well in school, paid my own way through college to earn my Bachelors and then my Masters. Put in about 20 years with the FAA. I might not NEED more money to simply survive but I'm ready to start claiming the dream I've worked for.

i completely agree

i just thought people should acknowledge this fact

J.B.
02-28-2011, 06:11 PM
that is the point..... when people spend over 50 percent of their income entertaining themselves they are spoiled, how can it be that people are being paid 3 mil a month to play when others are getting paid minimum wage for hard labor....





i don't even know what we are arguing about.....

i do know people are spoiled.....

unions are just extensions of political parties, usually democrats--- and i don't know how it got that way but i do like the ideas of unions

the government has no business telling people how much to pay, who to hire, where to go, what to make, how many to make, etc....

BUT if they do butt their nose in, they oughta do it fairly and completely, not halfa$$ed.... if they are doing it in the name of fairness then there are alot of people that are overpaid and alot of people that are underpaid


People make millions of dollars to play because people are spending their money on it. I'm not saying that people who work hard shouldn't make better money, and I'm not saying that people couldn't spend their money more wisely. I'm simply saying that we can't bash athletes and entertainers for wanting to be fairly compensated for their contribution to a team or company in relation to what the overall profits are. We can't bash these guys in one breath and then try to turn around and promote true capitalism. They have every right to pursue their dreams and make as much money as they can for themselves and their families.

It's also not meant as a slight against people who work hard every day, but the fact is that it doesn't take a lot of talent to swing a hammer or shovel dirt. Almost anybody can do hard labor, even the laziest of people. Not anybody can play ball like Jordan or Kobe, or sing like Michael Jackson, or act like Clint Eastwood.

NateR
02-28-2011, 06:27 PM
I know a little about running a buisness, and i know that you have to have some money saved for bad times. I dont think it was the workers fault, i think it was the management or mismanagement.

Are you talking about the roofing business? Well, what would have happened in that scenario if all your employers had formed a "roofers' union" and started demanding $8 more per hour, along with medical and retirement benefits? Where would the money from all those extra benefits have come from? Out of your pocket? I think Hughes Construction would have folded pretty quick if that was the case. If it had, then could we have just claimed that you had mismanaged your own business?

I get the feeling that you dont want a middle class anymore?

This is why I was asking Nate about the middle class.

I think someone sold you a con if you actually think the unions are out to protect the middle class. :laugh:

These days the unions are nothing but political machines that are in bed with the Democratic Party. What percentage of your union dues went to elect Barack Obama back in 2008? And how much is going to go to his re-election campaign in 2012?


How are you going to pay for the unexpected? What are you going to do for retirement? how are you going to save up a nest egg? Are you going to have anything to give your kids? Are people like you planning on the goverment taking care of them when they get old? This is why people need good paying jobs, for people that think ahead.

How would Jesus Christ answer this question? Don't tell me you've forgotten about Him?

Matthew 6:31-34
So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Tyburn
02-28-2011, 06:34 PM
I think someone sold you a con if you actually think the unions are out to protect the middle class. :laugh:

These days the unions are nothing but political machines that are in bed with the Democratic Party. What percentage of your union dues went to elect Barack Obama back in 2008? And how much is going to go to his re-election campaign in 2012?




The problem isnt with the Unions...its with the people that make them. In England we have problems with the Unions supporting one political party against another. The solution is not to destroy the Unions at all...the solution is to limit their authority in law.

you want to Dis-Establish your Unions from any political party. You want to push the focus back onto the rights of the workers against some of the larger selfish companies.

Either that...or get rid of Unions all together, but have an EXTENSIVE employment law. The United States has virtually no employment law at all. You dont base livelihood on looose friendships. You have signed contracts. That stops problems when you hire friends to help you do a job...or worse still employ other people in your family. You need strict guidelines on unfair and constructive dissmissal also.

In England its not that easy to actually fire someone...you cant just decide you dont like someone and want to be rid of them. Big companies do that all the time. I know...ive had one try to do it to me before. :unsure-1:

County Mike
02-28-2011, 06:38 PM
Are you talking about the roofing business? Well, what would have happened in that scenario if all your employers had formed a "roofers' union" and started demanding $8 more per hour, along with medical and retirement benefits?

He would have the option to fire those people and hire new roofers at the regular wage.

If he can't find roofers at the regular wage, or at least for less than what the others are demanding, then I'd guess those guys are actually worth it. An employer should only have to pay what people are willing to work for.

If someone is willing to paint my house, and do a good job, for $100, why should I pay someone else $400 just because he demands it? If $400 is the lowest bid, then that's what I pay. Of course, I also have to be confident that a good job will be done. You can almost always pay less for crappy work.

Miss Foxy
02-28-2011, 06:40 PM
well it isn't really fair to make that comparison cause we have a big garden, i hunt, fish and butcher, we have a milk cow and we barter for eggs so our grocery bill is low, we try to keep it at 50 a week, plus diapers and formula and misc at 20 a week for off brand stuff at dollar general


but to answer your question a little bit better we buy generic diapers, we don;t buy alot of junk or pre made food, we don;t have cable or sat, we don't have a fancy car and we don't buy gas to go where we don;t need to go, we shop at good will, and stuff like that



it isn't just about money though and you're missing my point the government has no business telling us how to operate in the private sector, they have no business setting wages..... minimun or maximum, but why shouldn't they set a maximum now that they set a minimum??? i'm not saying they should, just wondering why?

Why is it okay for some people to make way more than others.... aren't they trying to make it fair by setting a minimum wage? well then wouldn't it be fair for everyone to get paid 200k a year? instead of some of us being lower income and some being billionaires



that is the point..... when people spend over 50 percent of their income entertaining themselves they are spoiled, how can it be that people are being paid 3 mil a month to play when others are getting paid minimum wage for hard labor....





i don't even know what we are arguing about.....

i do know people are spoiled.....

unions are just extensions of political parties, usually democrats--- and i don't know how it got that way but i do like the ideas of unions

the government has no business telling people how much to pay, who to hire, where to go, what to make, how many to make, etc....

BUT if they do butt their nose in, they oughta do it fairly and completely, not halfa$$ed.... if they are doing it in the name of fairness then there are alot of people that are overpaid and alot of people that are underpaid

I only go for pedicures every other week Adam T!! Doesn't make me spoiled..:tongue0011:

County Mike
02-28-2011, 06:42 PM
I only go for pedicures every other week Adam T!! Doesn't make me spoiled..:tongue0011:

No, but it might get you nail fungus.

Miss Foxy
02-28-2011, 06:45 PM
No, but it might get you nail fungus.

I don't go to cheap places.. I go where everything is new out of the package and clean..

CAVEMAN
02-28-2011, 06:51 PM
I can only speak from experience......but I work in a area that was heavily union at one time and by one time I mean just about 15 years ago. In that 15 and mostly the last 10 years, I have seen Clark Oil, Owens-Illinois, Jefferson Smurfit/Stone Container Corp, Laclede Steel, Chemetco, and few others leave the area. And now it looks like we will be losing Olin Winchester in the next 5 years. Some left because of financial troubles, but most of them because of the unions.

I was a Teamster for about 10 years when the business I was working for sold out to a competitor. The competitor was non-union and our Teamster leaders did not even put up a fight. No picketing, no negotiations, NO NOTHING! They called us on the phone and told us to come get a withdraw card. I paid 10 years in union dues FOR WHAT? Some of the guys I worked with paid in about 30 years worth.

And Buzzard, again from experience only, I was solicited by the union all the time to vote democrat!

And for the record, I went to work for that non-union competitor and am still with the company today, so the money was not bad.:wink:

adamt
02-28-2011, 06:51 PM
People make millions of dollars to play because people are spending their money on it. I'm not saying that people who work hard shouldn't make better money, and I'm not saying that people couldn't spend their money more wisely. I'm simply saying that we can't bash athletes and entertainers for wanting to be fairly compensated for their contribution to a team or company in relation to what the overall profits are. We can't bash these guys in one breath and then try to turn around and promote true capitalism. They have every right to pursue their dreams and make as much money as they can for themselves and their families.

It's also not meant as a slight against people who work hard every day, but the fact is that it doesn't take a lot of talent to swing a hammer or shovel dirt. Almost anybody can do hard labor, even the laziest of people. Not anybody can play ball like Jordan or Kobe, or sing like Michael Jackson, or act like Clint Eastwood.


i concur completely,,,,, i am just asking rhetorical questions

i would also add that not only is it the ability to perform, but also the willingness to do it

I am not one bit envious of matt as far as what he has to do to do what he does.... he might even enjoy some of it but as for me, i would hate going to vegas, doing interviews, being away from my family to train or train others, going to abu dhabi or suadi arabia or wherever, i wouldn't do it if i could, and if i wanted to do it my wife wouldn't enjoy it so i wouldn't, so i know the toil it takes on family to be an athlete

someone told me that michael waddell was away from home from sept 1 to jan 31st hunting, at first that sounds nice then it sounds like too much sacrifice for what it is worth

don't forget though, that opportunity and God given gifts are a part of the equation as well

BUT I still don't deny that atheletes should be paid what they get paid, but the only reason i believe that is because i believe in capitalism

I only go for pedicures every other week Adam T!! Doesn't make me spoiled..:tongue0011:

what's a pedicure :huh::unsure-1::unsure:


:laugh:

Crisco
02-28-2011, 06:52 PM
Are you talking about the roofing business? Well, what would have happened in that scenario if all your employers had formed a "roofers' union" and started demanding $8 more per hour, along with medical and retirement benefits? Where would the money from all those extra benefits have come from? Out of your pocket? I think Hughes Construction would have folded pretty quick if that was the case. If it had, then could we have just claimed that you had mismanaged your own business?





I think someone sold you a con if you actually think the unions are out to protect the middle class. :laugh:

These days the unions are nothing but political machines that are in bed with the Democratic Party. What percentage of your union dues went to elect Barack Obama back in 2008? And how much is going to go to his re-election campaign in 2012?




How would Jesus Christ answer this question? Don't tell me you've forgotten about Him?

Matthew 6:31-34


Matthew 6:19-21

If yoru not worried about your families financial situation your not being a good shephard to them. Have a savings account and living comfortable is a bit different then being a billionaire will money laying around.

adamt
02-28-2011, 06:56 PM
Are you talking about the roofing business? Well, what would have happened in that scenario if all your employers had formed a "roofers' union" and started demanding $8 more per hour, along with medical and retirement benefits? Where would the money from all those extra benefits have come from? Out of your pocket? I think Hughes Construction would have folded pretty quick if that was the case. If it had, then could we have just claimed that you had mismanaged your own business?









yes and then one day a politician comes along and tells them that if they put him in office he will make laws that would further benefit them and put the hurt on you--- the evil greedy rich curporation owner that underpays them

adamt
02-28-2011, 06:57 PM
If yoru not worried about your families financial situation your not being a good shephard to them. Have a savings account and living comfortable is a bit different then being a billionaire will money laying around.

uhhhh...... did you read the verses at all????

Neezar
02-28-2011, 06:58 PM
He would have the option to fire those people and hire new roofers at the regular wage.

If he can't find roofers at the regular wage, or at least for less than what the others are demanding, then I'd guess those guys are actually worth it. An employer should only have to pay what people are willing to work for.

If someone is willing to paint my house, and do a good job, for $100, why should I pay someone else $400 just because he demands it? If $400 is the lowest bid, then that's what I pay. Of course, I also have to be confident that a good job will be done. You can almost always pay less for crappy work.

But he doesn't have the option to do that. At least my boss didn't.

I worked for an electric company in the early 90's and a union guy started soliticing to the workers. Quite a few were going to join the union and my boss would have had to raise their salary considerably. (Ironically the guys that were considering it wasn't worth the money.) He would have had to raise it enough to more than pay for all the benefits that the union was promising these guys. (Which half of what is promised isn't usually delivered but that is another thread.) Anyway, he couldn't fire them for joining this union or he would have to face consequences from the government. The union would have protecting them from the firing. I will never forget this....he went out to the shop one Thursday afternoon (everyone there because payday, he paid on Thursday) and told them that he knew about the union and if they decided to join then he would just shut the business down and everyone loses. He told them that if they were worth a damn then they had no fear of him up and firing them for no reason and he had been in business 30 years and had proved himself. (true. He was a fair man.) He told them that if they were worth the money he would give them the raise. (true also. The good workers there made much more than the union rates.) He told them that he had already made his millions and could retire and move up to his ranch in TN permanently and live out his dreams. Then no one would have a job.

They didn't join the union.

adamt
02-28-2011, 07:02 PM
if there is a minimum wage so everyone has a chance to make a living maybe there should be a maximum wage.



no one commented on whether or not there should be a maximum wage or why/why not hows a max different than a min. ???

Crisco
02-28-2011, 07:02 PM
uhhhh...... did you read the verses at all????

1 timothy 5:8

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

adamt
02-28-2011, 07:09 PM
1 timothy 5:8

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


i think that actually serves my side of the argument, not yours

you advocate building barns and stowing away for the future, while there is good to be done in the present, hiding your talents in the ground is not good stewardship


how is hoarding money taking care of your relatives? This is present indicative not future imperative

Crisco
02-28-2011, 07:13 PM
i think that actually serves my side of the argument, not yours

you advocate building barns and stowing away for the future, while there is good to be done in the present, hiding your talents in the ground is not good stewardship


how is hoarding money taking care of your relatives? This is present indicative not future imperative

Your not hoarding. Your saving. Hoarding is greedy and without purpose.

Saving is a completely different animal then hoarding.


It's like that momo head that was here a while ago who wanted to be in massive debt and hope the rapture comes before he has to pay it back.

Neezar
02-28-2011, 07:15 PM
1 timothy 5:8

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

:laugh:

Are you sure you aren't taking this out of context?

Crisco
02-28-2011, 07:17 PM
:laugh:

Are you sure you aren't taking this out of context?

No actually it's in perfect context. The chapter deals with widows and elders and how we treat our family and peers.

Neezar
02-28-2011, 07:19 PM
No actually it's in perfect context. The chapter deals with widows and elders and how we treat our family and peers.

I guess I just don't understand how that is related to this thread though. :unsure-1:

Is anyone here suggesting that you shouldn't provide for your family?

Crisco
02-28-2011, 07:23 PM
I guess I just don't understand how that is related to this thread though. :unsure-1:

Is anyone here suggesting that you shouldn't provide for your family?

Not having a saving account for emergencies such as a roof collapsing or a sickness in the family is not being a good provider.

Providing for your family entails more then just throwing a pork chop on the table that's why I think it is relevant.

NateR
02-28-2011, 07:26 PM
no one commented on whether or not there should be a maximum wage or why/why not hows a max different than a min. ???

I don't agree with the idea of a maximum wage. We shouldn't put a cap on success in this country.

County Mike
02-28-2011, 07:29 PM
no one commented on whether or not there should be a maximum wage or why/why not hows a max different than a min. ???

Setting a maximum wage would be anti-capitalism. I agree that people should be paid what they're worth. With professional athletes and entertainers, they are obviously worth that money to someone. People are buying tickets to their events so they're worth it. I just said that I personally do not. At least not a lot. I do buy the PPV but MMA hasn't yet reached the MLB, NFL, etc. level. Quite a few guys in the UFC still make less than I do. In other major sports, the league minimum far exceeds my salary.

Crisco
02-28-2011, 07:29 PM
no one commented on whether or not there should be a maximum wage or why/why not hows a max different than a min. ???

The system has its flaws but without a minimum wage it might be pretty scary what this country looks like after a few years.

Neezar
02-28-2011, 07:31 PM
Not having a saving account for emergencies such as a roof collapsing or a sickness in the family is not being a good provider.

Providing for your family entails more then just throwing a pork chop on the table that's why I think it is relevant.

How much needs to be in there before you are considered a good provider?

Chuck
02-28-2011, 07:33 PM
When the economy tanked many years ago, my union members voted for a decrease in pay to keep jobs. Of course the CEO's awarded themselves millions in bonuses while we gave back 15% of our wages. So I am speaking from experience. What is your experience with unions? The downfall for many of the companies is the management, not the labor. The labor does the job, the management pisses away the money.
Good point.

Buzzard you missed the point fully and did nothing here but build more strawmen and built a horrid Converse accident. So I am not going to waste my time since you seem unwilling to discuss from the same page. As for an apology when you prove to me what you siad is true I will apologize. But if you think I will apologize based on a Converse accident you are crazier than I thought.
Have you ever noticed that whenever somebody calls you out or is willing to engage you in debate you tend to run and hide? You hide behind accusations of "Straw man" or in this case "Converse accident"... if it's about the Bible we get "proof texting" or "out of context"... The Constitution?? We get "original documents" and "you've been brainwashed"....

You jump in, make your accusations or attempt to prove your point then jump out and put your shield up when questioned..

I think most if not all of Buzzards points were actually quite valid....

Are you hiding? :ninja: :laugh:

I can live off 750-1000 a month, and actually be quite comfortable, and i have 4 kids, two in diapers, one on formula

I just don't see how that's mathematically possible. :huh:

adamt
02-28-2011, 07:39 PM
I don't agree with the idea of a maximum wage. We shouldn't put a cap on success in this country.

agreed

How much needs to be in there before you are considered a good provider?

extremely good question

Setting a maximum wage would be anti-capitalism. I agree that people should be paid what they're worth. With professional athletes and entertainers, they are obviously worth that money to someone. People are buying tickets to their events so they're worth it. I just said that I personally do not. At least not a lot. I do buy the PPV but MMA hasn't yet reached the MLB, NFL, etc. level. Quite a few guys in the UFC still make less than I do. In other major sports, the league minimum far exceeds my salary.

agreed but if telling someone how much they can pay is anticapitalism, isn't telling someone how much they have to pay the same thing

minimum wage is anticapitalism just as much as a maximum wage the law has no business in private business minimum or maximum


a floor is as bad as a cap

failure is as much a part of capitalism as success

if people had been allowed to fail and banks had been allowed to fail then we wouldn't have had the recession

things just kept getting inflated til it popped

flo
02-28-2011, 07:49 PM
I do agree that some entertainers are overpaid. When people are making $2 Million per TV episode or $10 million per baseball season, I've got to wonder where that money comes from. That's the main reason I don't buy tickets to NFL, MLB, NHL or NBA games. They all make WAY more than I do so they don't need any of my money.
I will gladly pay to see minor league sports though.

Absolutely agree. I don't blame the players for taking the money, who would turn it down? I blame the greedy owners for charging so frickin' much for tickets/gear and everything else we pay in connection to attending a sporting event. And then they have the cojones (and we sheep-like go along with it!) to have the tax payers subsidise their stadiums.

Meh.

Mark
02-28-2011, 07:51 PM
i can live off 750-1000 a month, and actually be quite comfortable, and i have 4 kids, two in diapers, one on formula

How did your house and land get paid for? Im not attacking you but I want to make a point. You must have more that 750-1000 a month to have any ground paid for and retire on it.

flo
02-28-2011, 07:51 PM
Depends on your definition of "need".

We can survive just fine on what I make. Nobody will starve, we'll have a roof over our heads, etc.

However, my house is small and very old. To save up the money I NEED to build a bigger, better house I NEED to make more or be very careful with my spending and give it several years of saving just for the down payment. It's all relative.

I'm not claiming poverty or anything, but part of the American dream is that if you work hard you'll be rewarded. I've put in my work. Did well in school, paid my own way through college to earn my Bachelors and then my Masters. Put in about 20 years with the FAA. I might not NEED more money to simply survive but I'm ready to start claiming the dream I've worked for.

Great post, Mike, well said.

Crisco
02-28-2011, 07:53 PM
How much needs to be in there before you are considered a good provider?

As much as you can afford it would vary by person obviously. You can't expect a minimum wager to put away 50 grand.

As a rule of thumb I think 10k should be the bench mark. It's not obscene and it is enough to take care of most problems.

County Mike
02-28-2011, 08:00 PM
agreed



extremely good question



agreed but if telling someone how much they can pay is anticapitalism, isn't telling someone how much they have to pay the same thing

minimum wage is anticapitalism just as much as a maximum wage the law has no business in private business minimum or maximum


a floor is as bad as a cap

failure is as much a part of capitalism as success

if people had been allowed to fail and banks had been allowed to fail then we wouldn't have had the recession

things just kept getting inflated til it popped

I'm not saying I agree with a minimum wage either. The only valid argument I can see for that is if an employer knows he has to pay a minimum, he'll at least look for someone who is qualified instead of hiring the cheapest person he can get. I'm thinking it's a way to deter some hiring of illegals just because they're the cheapest. If I have to pay a minimum anyway, I'll at least hire the legal US citizen who speaks my language.

flo
02-28-2011, 08:02 PM
Adam, you and your wife must own the farm, free & clear?

I think a lot depends on where you live. Taxes are very high here, both sales and property. I've noticed that grocery prices here have almost uniformly risen 15% in the last couple weeks. 15% of what I spend a month on groceries/household staples is about another $100...

This is a slow time in the lumber industry so I doubt we will be getting a 15% raise any time soon.

Neezar
02-28-2011, 08:10 PM
As much as you can afford it would vary by person obviously. You can't expect a minimum wager to put away 50 grand.

As a rule of thumb I think 10k should be the bench mark. It's not obscene and it is enough to take care of most problems.

I would call this a swiss cheese statement. I love you, C and think you are awesome, are a great person with good intentions.

But I hate your point here.

If you don't have your savings account where it should be according to what you can afford and have cable, are you being a bad provider? :mellow:

And 10k is no where near enough to cover a car accident that requires a hospital stay which is much more likely to happen than your roof caving in (in most cases).

Again I respect your aspirations in this. I guess I really don't like it right now because I don't have my savings account built up to where I would like it and I am about to take a cut in pay because my boys are begging me to move back to our old place! They want to go back because I was home more. So after much praying and debating it, I am putting that college fund on the back burner and going part time. And I don't feel like that makes me a bad provider. My kids need more from me than a savings account. :unsure-1:

Mark
02-28-2011, 08:10 PM
How would Jesus Christ answer this question? Don't tell me you've forgotten about Him?

Matthew 6:31-34


Matthew 6:19-21

So you think people should not have any savings? Nothing for retiremen?

flo
02-28-2011, 08:21 PM
I guess I really don't like it right now because I don't have my savings account built up to where I would like it and I am about to take a cut in pay because my boys are begging me to move back to our old place! They want to go back because I was home more. So after much praying and debating it, I am putting that college fund on the back burner and going part time. And I don't feel like that makes me a bad provider. My kids need more from me than a savings account. :unsure-1:

Bravo, Neez.

Mark
02-28-2011, 08:21 PM
Not having a saving account for emergencies such as a roof collapsing or a sickness in the family is not being a good provider.

Providing for your family entails more then just throwing a pork chop on the table that's why I think it is relevant.

Like Proverbs 21-20
The wise store up choice food and olive oil,
but fools gulp theirs down

Tyburn
02-28-2011, 08:27 PM
I love how you all have views on savings...but tell me...do any of you contribute 10% of all your earnings to the church....and I dont mean to charity...I mean to the church.

In Biblical Scripture one is supposed to spend 10% on the Temple...not just that, i'd be interested in seeing if those who cultivate land do as is directed in the Law...the propogation of land (unlike the giving) was never readdressed by Christ.

Tell me...every seven years what happens to your Seventh Harvest? do you really wait five seasons for a Tree or Bush that gives fruit to go past before you take and eat of the fruit...How much land in your fields do you leave...to grow wild after being propergated...so that the produce can feed the animals and the poor?

...and what about the fact on all savings you earn interest...I was under the impression that earning interest, or charging others interest is grossly wrong and actually addressed somewhere in the new testament.

Its so obvious that there should be a ballence. Dont be consumed by wealth and materialism because you cant take it with you, dont worry about today because each day has its own problems...but in the same way, use your common sense. Use the money you are given wisely, so that with your money you can give back to GOD in some way...by being good stewards of the earth, by treating your family correctly.

Its about Ballence...that much is perfectly obvious and shouldnt take 20 odd pages of polar opposites to debate it :laugh:

bradwright
02-28-2011, 08:27 PM
I would call this a swiss cheese statement. I love you, C and think you are awesome, are a great person with good intentions.

But I hate your point here.

If you don't have your savings account where it should be according to what you can afford and have cable, are you being a bad provider? :mellow:

And 10k is no where near enough to cover a car accident that requires a hospital stay which is much more likely to happen than your roof caving in (in most cases).

Again I respect your aspirations in this. I guess I really don't like it right now because I don't have my savings account built up to where I would like it and I am about to take a cut in pay because my boys are begging me to move back to our old place! They want to go back because I was home more. So after much praying and debating it, I am putting that college fund on the back burner and going part time. And I don't feel like that makes me a bad provider. My kids need more from me than a savings account. :unsure-1:

no that doesn't make you a bad provider...you have to do what makes you and your family happy...other wise what is the point ?

people should save what ever they can afford to save...sometimes thats a little,sometimes thats a lot.

i know i'm going to take a blasting for this next one but...

unless you spend it..."MONEY IS JUST A FIGURE IN A BOOK"...so live a little and have some fun people ! !

just try not to spend it all.:wink:

Tyburn
02-28-2011, 08:32 PM
no that doesn't make you a bad provider...you have to do what makes you and your family happy...other wise what is the point ?

people should save what ever they can afford to save...sometimes thats a little,sometimes thats a lot.

i know i'm going to take a blasting for this next one but...

unless you spend it..."MONEY IS JUST A FIGURE IN A BOOK"...so live a little and have some fun people ! !

just try not to spend it all.:wink:

:laugh: sometimes there are no figures in the book, and no money to spend...and thats coming from someone who works full time and gets state benefits...but doesnt live a lavish lifestyle, sits in front of a computer because he cant afford to go out...spends YEARS saving for a single two weeks holiday....or...goes on other peoples money... :laugh:

I started Saving for American Dreams Tour Three in November 2009...it doesnt take place until March 2012 :laugh:

Mark
02-28-2011, 08:35 PM
I love how you all have views on savings...but tell me...do any of you contribute 10% of all your earnings to the church....and I dont mean to charity...I mean to the church.

close. its hard sometimes with what I do. Different money coming from different places. I just dont get one check from my one job.

adamt
02-28-2011, 08:38 PM
Your not hoarding. Your saving. Hoarding is greedy and without purpose.

Saving is a completely different animal then hoarding.


It's like that momo head that was here a while ago who wanted to be in massive debt and hope the rapture comes before he has to pay it back.

yeah if this is going to turn into a name calling/personal insult contest you can have it, i don't really care all that much, i just like discussing..... and arguing with mark

How did your house and land get paid for? Im not attacking you but I want to make a point. You must have more that 750-1000 a month to have any ground paid for and retire on it.

i don't take it as an attack at all --- and

excellent point, but also to be fair, i don't think business expenses and living expenses should be grouped together there are times my business takes 40-50K a month to run, with no sales at all, then when sales comes its a six digit number, every four months but many times the net isn't all that much AFTER business expenses

i was just really talking about what it takes to live

I'm not saying I agree with a minimum wage either. The only valid argument I can see for that is if an employer knows he has to pay a minimum, he'll at least look for someone who is qualified instead of hiring the cheapest person he can get. I'm thinking it's a way to deter some hiring of illegals just because they're the cheapest. If I have to pay a minimum anyway, I'll at least hire the legal US citizen who speaks my language.

true but the same may be able to be accompolished with huge fines.....taht are enforced

Adam, you and your wife must own the farm, free & clear?

I think a lot depends on where you live. Taxes are very high here, both sales and property. I've noticed that grocery prices here have almost uniformly risen 15% in the last couple weeks. 15% of what I spend a month on groceries/household staples is about another $100...

This is a slow time in the lumber industry so I doubt we will be getting a 15% raise any time soon.

not really i can put it this way, if we owned 40 acres outright then leveraged it against another forty, you can say we own 40 acres or you can say we aren't leveraged that much against 80 know what i mean? and that debt i would consider business expenses, not wages or Cost of living

and i concur it depends on alot of variables, location especially, and food is going up around here as well... esp eggs...y i don't know

Like Proverbs 21-20
The wise store up choice food and olive oil,
but fools gulp theirs down


to be fair i think this is talking about saving for winter, not retirement

bradwright
02-28-2011, 08:40 PM
well it isn't really fair to make that comparison cause we have a big garden, i hunt, fish and butcher, we have a milk cow and we barter for eggs so our grocery bill is low, we try to keep it at 50 a week, plus diapers and formula and misc at 20 a week for off brand stuff at dollar general


but to answer your question a little bit better we buy generic diapers, we don;t buy alot of junk or pre made food, we don;t have cable or sat, we don't have a fancy car and we don't buy gas to go where we don;t need to go, we shop at good will, and stuff like that

it sounds like you guys have everything under control...and actually i'm impressed.

i hope you dont take this next one the wrong though....but are you guys happy ?

Mark
02-28-2011, 08:41 PM
to be fair i think this is talking about saving for winter, not retirement

God cant provide for the winter?

flo
02-28-2011, 08:41 PM
not really i can put it this way, if we owned 40 acres outright then leveraged it against another forty, you can say we own 40 acres or you can say we aren't leveraged that much against 80 know what i mean? and that debt i would consider business expenses, not wages or Cost of living



Ah, I see, thx.

Crisco
02-28-2011, 08:42 PM
yeah if this is going to turn into a name calling/personal insult contest you can have it, i don't really care all that much, i just like discussing..... and arguing with mark



i don't take it as an attack at all --- and

excellent point, but also to be fair, i don't think business expenses and living expenses should be grouped together there are times my business takes 40-50K a month to run, with no sales at all, then when sales comes its a six digit number, every four months but many times the net isn't all that much AFTER business expenses

i was just really talking about what it takes to live



true but the same may be able to be accompolished with huge fines.....taht are enforced



not really i can put it this way, if we owned 40 acres outright then leveraged it against another forty, you can say we own 40 acres or you can say we aren't leveraged that much against 80 know what i mean? and that debt i would consider business expenses, not wages or Cost of living

and i concur it depends on alot of variables, location especially, and food is going up around here as well... esp eggs...y i don't know




to be fair i think this is talking about saving for winter, not retirement

I wasn't calling you a momo head I was calling him a momo head. Don't worry I don't dislike you. I wouldn't call you a name. I just disagree with you on some stuff.

Miss Foxy
02-28-2011, 08:42 PM
no that doesn't make you a bad provider...you have to do what makes you and your family happy...other wise what is the point ?

people should save what ever they can afford to save...sometimes thats a little,sometimes thats a lot.

i know i'm going to take a blasting for this next one but...

unless you spend it..."MONEY IS JUST A FIGURE IN A BOOK"...so live a little and have some fun people ! !just try not to spend it all.:wink:
I feel the same way.. I save, but I also like to enjoy things as well. I know I need to work on saving, but I try to give my children good memories like trips, sporting events, and just little extra things...It's also hard to save in this horrible economy I pay $3.65 for a gallon of gas.. :sad:

flo
02-28-2011, 08:45 PM
I feel the same way.. I save, but I also like to enjoy things as well. I know I need to work on saving, but I try to give my children good memories like trips, sporting events, and just little extra things...It's also hard to save in this horrible economy I pay $3.65 for a gallon of gas.. :sad:

I hear you, Melissa; gas is high here ($3.20 - $3.30) but I think CA has the highest of the lower 48...good thing I spend all my time on the computer.

:laugh:

Tyburn
02-28-2011, 08:45 PM
close. its hard sometimes with what I do. Different money coming from different places. I just dont get one check from my one job.

Fantastic :)

I cant exactly give 10percent of my full wage...but of my disposable income I can...and have started doing so. Like you...it might not be 100percent accurate coz im not quite sure how much disposable income is disposable, and how much isnt as it changes each time prices go up :laugh: but you get my drift.

I dont have long term savings...just short term...but then we are in different boats. I live alone..there is only me to cater for...so I wouldnt have need for long term massive savings...I have a few non human dependants...but they are available for adoption by pet stores if something were to happen to me and none of my family would take care of them...you cant do that with family...well maybe Children I suppose...but not if your caring for parents, and have partners and the likes...gone are the days when we can sell women into bondage :laugh::laugh:

Birds on the other hand can be ethically bought and sold. I did so with Neezar last year. I bought her from a shop and when she could only produce deformed offspring...I gave her to a different shop, which will sell her on to a new owner.

Not that I would ever want to get rid of my birds...but the babies must go to market...I cant keep them all. If I kept all the birds I had bought this year I would have Baby Bart, Baby Tobias, Baby Benjamin, Dane, One unanmed Male, two unnamed Female, Michelle, Dane, Neezar, Levon, Pettis, Bonnie, Bev, Wyman and Jens the Budgie....plus Five more Eggs due to hatch this week. That would give me TWENTY ONE BIRDS!

as it was Four died, Four went to market, Five will go to market...and the rest are my staple :laugh:

Crisco
02-28-2011, 08:46 PM
I would call this a swiss cheese statement. I love you, C and think you are awesome, are a great person with good intentions.

But I hate your point here.

If you don't have your savings account where it should be according to what you can afford and have cable, are you being a bad provider? :mellow:

And 10k is no where near enough to cover a car accident that requires a hospital stay which is much more likely to happen than your roof caving in (in most cases).

Again I respect your aspirations in this. I guess I really don't like it right now because I don't have my savings account built up to where I would like it and I am about to take a cut in pay because my boys are begging me to move back to our old place! They want to go back because I was home more. So after much praying and debating it, I am putting that college fund on the back burner and going part time. And I don't feel like that makes me a bad provider. My kids need more from me than a savings account. :unsure-1:

Hey neezy my main point about being a provider for your family was not to settle for less just because your afraid of being a "hoarder.

Your doing what is best for you and your family and there is no shame in cable, I get all the channels =P.

The problem with this discussion is it is difficult to make a statement and have it cover everything you want it too. It's broad reaching.

Mark
02-28-2011, 08:47 PM
I wasn't calling you a momo head I was calling him a momo head. Don't worry I don't dislike you. I wouldn't call you a name. I just disagree with you on some stuff.

That is funny.

bradwright
02-28-2011, 08:47 PM
I feel the same way.. I save, but I also like to enjoy things as well. I know I need to work on saving, but I try to give my children good memories like trips, sporting events, and just little extra things...It's also hard to save in this horrible economy I pay $3.65 for a gallon of gas.. :sad:

very few people dont need to work on being able to save...no matter what some people claim.:wink:
i pay $4.95 for a gallon of gas...trade you ! !

Tyburn
02-28-2011, 08:48 PM
except for Dane which I put down twice...He will NEVER be bought or sold...He was born under my care...and he will almost certainly die under my care. If I could only keep two...I would keep Jens The Budgie and Dane the Zebra Finch :laugh:

Crisco
02-28-2011, 08:48 PM
That is funny.

thank u:cool:

Rev
02-28-2011, 08:49 PM
no that doesn't make you a bad provider...you have to do what makes you and your family happy...other wise what is the point ?

people should save what ever they can afford to save...sometimes thats a little,sometimes thats a lot.

i know i'm going to take a blasting for this next one but...

unless you spend it..."MONEY IS JUST A FIGURE IN A BOOK"...so live a little and have some fun people ! !

just try not to spend it all.:wink:
I fully agree with this. i have a hard time saving because my wife and I dont make alot. We are working on building up our savings but with 2 young kids and me still in seminary, saving money is like Chuck Norris.(tough as heck)
When we get into the position to save more, we will, but we will also enjoy life and spend some time and money with our kids and take hunting trips.

Miss Foxy
02-28-2011, 08:50 PM
Fantastic :)

I cant exactly give 10percent of my full wage...but of my disposable income I can...and have started doing so. Like you...it might not be 100percent accurate coz im not quite sure how much disposable income is disposable, and how much isnt as it changes each time prices go up :laugh: but you get my drift.

I dont have long term savings...just short term...but then we are in different boats. I live alone..there is only me to cater for...so I wouldnt have need for long term massive savings...I have a few non human dependants...but they are available for adoption by pet stores if something were to happen to me and none of my family would take care of them...you cant do that with family...well maybe Children I suppose...but not if your caring for parents, and have partners and the likes...gone are the days when we can sell women into bondage :laugh::laugh:

Birds on the other hand can be ethically bought and sold. I did so with Neezar last year. I bought her from a shop and when she could only produce deformed offspring...I gave her to a different shop, which will sell her on to a new owner.

Not that I would ever want to get rid of my birds...but the babies must go to market...I cant keep them all. If I kept all the birds I had bought this year I would have Baby Bart, Baby Tobias, Baby Benjamin, Dane, One unanmed Male, two unnamed Female, Michelle, Dane, Neezar, Levon, Pettis, Bonnie, Bev, Wyman and Jens the Budgie....plus Five more Eggs due to hatch this week. That would give me TWENTY ONE BIRDS!

as it was Four died, Four went to market, Five will go to market...and the rest are my staple :laugh: :angry:!! Melissa!! lol

flo
02-28-2011, 08:51 PM
very few people dont need to work on being able to save...no matter what some people claim.:wink:
i pay $4.95 for a gallon of gas...trade you ! !

Are you talking about imperial gallon? Are you in Canada?

Rev
02-28-2011, 08:52 PM
BTW Dave, Yes, 10%

bradwright
02-28-2011, 08:57 PM
Are you talking about imperial gallon? Are you in Canada?

sorry Flo,didn't try to intentionally mislead everyone.

i was quoting a Canadian gallon...but in the US it would be equivalent to $4.36 a gallon.

Rev
02-28-2011, 09:08 PM
sorry Flo,didn't try to intentionally mislead everyone.

i was quoting a Canadian gallon...but in imperial it would be $4.40 a gallon.

Oh Lord, I forgot you are a Canuck. Lets just forget that I agreed with you,.....Ever.

lol

NateR
02-28-2011, 11:03 PM
very few people dont need to work on being able to save...no matter what some people claim.:wink:
i pay $4.95 for a gallon of gas...trade you ! !

I'm HORRIBLE at saving money. Absolutely HORRIBLE, just ask Mark. :laugh:

Even Matt tried to get me to set up a savings account a couple of years ago, which I did with $100 to start out. How much is in that savings account now? About $8, and I haven't made a deposit in over a year. Whoops!

flo
02-28-2011, 11:40 PM
I'm HORRIBLE at saving money. Absolutely HORRIBLE, just ask Mark. :laugh:

Even Matt tried to get me to set up a savings account a couple of years ago, which I did with $100 to start out. How much is in that savings account now? About $8, and I haven't made a deposit in over a year. Whoops!

Same here, Nate. It's tought to be disciplined about it. That's why I'm glad we have set amt's going to the 401k, ditto extra on mortgage. If it wasn't automatic, I'm sure we'd find other uses for the $$...

County Mike
02-28-2011, 11:44 PM
I'm HORRIBLE at saving money. Absolutely HORRIBLE, just ask Mark. :laugh:

Even Matt tried to get me to set up a savings account a couple of years ago, which I did with $100 to start out. How much is in that savings account now? About $8, and I haven't made a deposit in over a year. Whoops!

Damn! Your savings dropped?
Hailey has about $500 in her savings. Of course, it helps that she's not able to take any out. :)

Blade
03-01-2011, 12:02 AM
Fantastic :)



Birds on the other hand can be ethically bought and sold. I did so with Neezar last year. I bought her from a shop and when she could only produce deformed offspring...I gave her to a different shop, which will sell her on to a new owner.

Not that I would ever want to get rid of my birds...but the babies must go to market...I cant keep them all. If I kept all the birds I had bought this year I would have Baby Bart, Baby Tobias, Baby Benjamin, Dane, One unanmed Male, two unnamed Female, Michelle, Dane, Neezar, Levon, Pettis, Bonnie, Bev, Wyman and Jens the Budgie....plus Five more Eggs due to hatch this week. That would give me TWENTY ONE BIRDS!



How would you like it if your olds sent you packing just because you were firing blanks? Have a heart Thighburn. P.S I bet your flat smells delightful!

adamt
03-01-2011, 12:13 AM
it sounds like you guys have everything under control...and actually i'm impressed.

i hope you dont take this next one the wrong though....but are you guys happy ?

extremely happy.... tho i don't want to give an impression we don't ever want for anything.... i just think that at whatever level you are on you will struggle, (didn't ed mcmahon or someone get foreclosed on last year)so why not live simple and in fact i was about to point out the richest people seem the unhappiest i.e. pop stars, celebrities

God cant provide for the winter?

touchè:laugh:


I wasn't calling you a momo head I was calling him a momo head. Don't worry I don't dislike you. I wouldn't call you a name. I just disagree with you on some stuff.

touchè to you as well.... very clever my apologies :)

adamt
03-01-2011, 12:17 AM
I hear you, Melissa; gas is high here ($3.20 - $3.30) but I think CA has the highest of the lower 48...good thing I spend all my time on the computer.

:laugh:


yeah this is silly but what are eggs there?

milk?

bananas?


here it is 1.19 for mediums 3.09 for 2% and 59 cents a pound

oh and gas is 3.25 here as well for 10 percent ethanol straight is 3.35

yes here ethanol is cheaper ô¿ô

bradwright
03-01-2011, 01:17 AM
[QUOTE=adamt;155192]extremely happy.... tho i don't want to give an impression we don't ever want for anything.... i just think that at whatever level you are on you will struggle, (didn't ed mcmahon or someone get foreclosed on last year)so why not live simple and in fact i was about to point out the richest people seem the unhappiest i.e. pop stars, celebrities

i'm glad you guys are Happy.:)

i have told people lots of times my wife and i had some of the best times of our lives when we had nothing...its not that we are rich now,but we are okay and can do most anything we want...and some how i find myself appreciating things a little less then i did when it came harder to get.

one of the hardest things in life to do is live within your means no matter how much money a person has or doesn't have...and thats where problems start.
the more you can afford and the more you spend the bigger the fall if and when things do go bad.

bradwright
03-01-2011, 01:21 AM
Oh Lord, I forgot you are a Canuck. Lets just forget that I agreed with you,.....Ever.

lol

i was kinda wondering what came over you...but dont worry i dont think anyone noticed.:wink:

Rev
03-01-2011, 01:42 AM
Come on now, dont be bitter!!
I cant help it if you're a liberal and everyone hates you!! lol
dude I'm so kidding. I love ya dude.
Just to show you Im a good sport.

I LOVE CANAD..... I LOVE CANA....

Sorry dude, i tried.
War Republicans!!!! lol

flo
03-01-2011, 01:43 AM
yeah this is silly but what are eggs there?

milk?

bananas?


here it is 1.19 for mediums 3.09 for 2% and 59 cents a pound

oh and gas is 3.25 here as well for 10 percent ethanol straight is 3.35

yes here ethanol is cheaper ô¿ô

Well, I get cage free, they average $3.25/doz
Milk - 1/2 gal org 2% = $3.50
Bananas vary but are cheap, probably average .50 to .60#

bradwright
03-01-2011, 01:43 AM
Come on now, dont be bitter!!
I cant help it if you're a liberal and everyone hates you!! lol
dude I'm so kidding. I love ya dude.
Just to show you Im a good sport.

I LOVE CANAD..... I LOVE CANA....

Sorry dude, i tried.
War Republicans!!!! lol

:laugh:now thats some funny stuff.

but i'm not a liberal.:ninja:

Rev
03-01-2011, 01:45 AM
You smell like one, oh wait, Buzzard is online. That must be him. lol
Sorry birdman, it was there.



man I'm great at making friends!!

flo
03-01-2011, 01:48 AM
Come on now, dont be bitter!!
I cant help it if you're a liberal and everyone hates you!! lol
dude I'm so kidding. I love ya dude.
Just to show you Im a good sport.

I LOVE CANAD..... I LOVE CANA....

Sorry dude, i tried.
War Republicans!!!! lol

LOL!! We're Republicans too but I love Canada. It's our favorite place to go for vacation.

Also Tim Horton doughnuts, BC Growers cider, Canadian bacon, Tragically Hip, Stephan Harper, what's not to love???

bradwright
03-01-2011, 01:50 AM
Well, I get cage free, they average $3.25/doz
Milk - 1/2 gal org 2% = $3.50
Bananas vary but are cheap, probably average .50 to .60#

holy smokes Flo.

we pay $2.25 a doz for large eggs. cage free.

we pay $4.99 for i gallon of homogenized...non organic.

Bananas are 79 cents a lb.

and yes our gas is $4.36 a US gallon...just in case you didn't see my other post.

bradwright
03-01-2011, 01:53 AM
LOL!! We're Republicans too but I love Canada. It's our favorite place to go for vacation.

Also Tim Horton doughnuts, BC Growers cider, Canadian bacon, Tragically Hip, Stephan Harper, what's not to love???

evidently me acording to Rev.

BTW...who the heck is Steven Harper ? :unsure-1:

Rev
03-01-2011, 01:53 AM
Not gonna lie, Canada has some of the best hunting on the planet.
Tell ya what, We will trade you California for Sask.. Sa....Saskatchewan....
that "S" word place with all the Huge deer!!!
Do we have a deal?

flo
03-01-2011, 01:54 AM
Yeah, gas is always higher across the border...

I need to find someone selling eggs, it would be great to have really fresh eggs again. And those are WalMart prices, BTW.

Rev
03-01-2011, 01:54 AM
evidently me acording to Rev.

BTW...who the heck is Steven Harper ? :unsure-1:

DUDE!! I said I love you!!

bradwright
03-01-2011, 01:56 AM
Yeah, gas is always higher across the border...

I need to find someone selling eggs, it would be great to have really fresh eggs again. And those are WalMart prices, BTW.

do you live in the State of Washington Flo ?

flo
03-01-2011, 01:56 AM
BTW...who the heck is Steven Harper ? :unsure-1:

Hardy, har har. :laugh:

flo
03-01-2011, 01:57 AM
do you live in the State of Washington Flo ?

Yup, the capitol city, Olympia.

bradwright
03-01-2011, 02:01 AM
Not gonna lie, Canada has some of the best hunting on the planet.
Tell ya what, We will trade you California for Sask.. Sa....Saskatchewan....
that "S" word place with all the Huge deer!!!
Do we have a deal?

i would trade Sask in a heart beat if it were up to me...but if you really want some good hunting come to Manitoba....believe me if you ever did you would never go back to Sask....well unless you had to relieve yourself that is.:wink:

Rev
03-01-2011, 02:03 AM
i would trade Sask in a heart beat if it were up to me...but if you really want some good hunting come to Manitoba....believe me if you ever did you would never go back to Sask....well unless you had to relieve yourself that is.:wink:

ROTF
I hear the B\bear hunting in Manitoba is insane!!! How about the Deer and Caribou?
Do you hunt?

bradwright
03-01-2011, 02:05 AM
Yup, the capitol city, Olympia.

i lived just outside of Vancouver in the lower mainland for a few years building golf courses...i loved it there but the rain in the winter time depressed my wife a bit.

bradwright
03-01-2011, 02:19 AM
ROTF
I hear the B\bear hunting in Manitoba is insane!!! How about the Deer and Caribou?
Do you hunt?

yes the Bear hunting is good but there is also very good Deer,Moose and Caribou hunting as well.

no i dont hunt...all of my relatives and family do though.

its funny but i went Deer hunting with one of my best friends when i was 18 or so and he pushed a small bush and i waited on the other side and a huge Buck came out about 30 yards away and stopped and looked right at me...i raised my rifle and had a clear shot if i wanted but i stood there looking at him through the scope for a few moments and just couldn't pull the trigger.

i lowered the gun and just watched him as he stood there looking back at me, then i made some noise and he ran off before my buddy came out of the bush and got a shot at him.

i have never gone hunting again.

i have nothing against it...its just not for me.

flo
03-01-2011, 02:29 AM
i lived just outside of Vancouver in the lower mainland for a few years building golf courses...i loved it there but the rain in the winter time depressed my wife a bit.

It's rainy here, that's for sure.

Are you in BC?

bradwright
03-01-2011, 02:33 AM
It's rainy here, that's for sure.

Are you in BC?

no,we live in Manitoba.

Rev
03-01-2011, 02:35 AM
Lord , I do not miss western Washington for that reason alone!! Rain Rain Rain. All the time!
I was so glad when we moved over to Spokane! and then back to Idaho.

bradwright
03-01-2011, 02:37 AM
Lord , I do not miss western Washington for that reason alone!! Rain Rain Rain. All the time!
I was so glad when we moved over to Spokane! and then back to Idaho.

Idaho seems nice...i've been through there a few times and i liked it.

Buzzard
03-01-2011, 02:47 AM
You smell like one, oh wait, Buzzard is online. That must be him. lol
Sorry birdman, it was there.



man I'm great at making friends!!

No problems with jokes, all is good. One question though. Why does everyone on here insist I am a liberal? I don't vote according to any party line, I vote how I want, not how others want me to. I have values that range through R's to D's to Independent to Libertarian. Believe it or not, I even have some Conservative values.

I know you didn't mean it as an insult, and I didn't take it that way. I do get insulted when called that as a derogatory term. The funny thing is that those who do call me that derogatorily are completely clueless as to my political leanings.

bradwright
03-01-2011, 02:59 AM
No problems with jokes, all is good. One question though. Why does everyone on here insist I am a liberal? I don't vote according to any party line, I vote how I want, not how others want me to. I have values that range through R's to D's to Independent to Libertarian. Believe it or not, I even have some Conservative values.

I know you didn't mean it as an insult, and I didn't take it that way. I do get insulted when called that as a derogatory term. The funny thing is that those who do call me that derogatorily are completely clueless as to my political leanings.

i agree with you...lots of people try to put labels on when infact i'm like you..i have some liberal values but i have some conservative values as well.

here in Canada i dont put my allegiance behind any one political party whether i voted for them or not...if they do something i dont agree with i say so.

Rev
03-01-2011, 03:29 AM
Ok guys, lets be honnest.
Buzz, ......... nevermind.
Brad, dude, you are Canadian, nuff said, and Buzzard should be.
Just kidding.

All I have said in this thread to yall is a joke and if you took offense to it, then you REALLY dont know me. I love ya both and pray for yall,(even if ya dont want me to BUZZ:wink::laugh:)
The political differences are not relavent in my post thus far, BUT, this thread is about a political issue so I will try and jump back over there right about...................

I thought only supreme court justices decided how to interpret the constituion. The President doesnt have that authority does he?

bradwright
03-01-2011, 03:38 AM
Ok guys, lets be honnest.
Buzz, ......... nevermind.
Brad, dude, you are Canadian, nuff said, and Buzzard should be.
Just kidding.

All I have said in this thread to yall is a joke and if you took offense to it, then you REALLY dont know me. I love ya both and pray for yall,(even if ya dont want me to BUZZ:wink::laugh:)
The political differences are not relavent in my post thus far, BUT, this thread is about a political issue so I will try and jump back over there right about...................

I thought only supreme court justices decided how to interpret the constituion. The President doesnt have that authority does he?

dont worry...i know you were only joking around...but i'm not.:ninja:

just kidding:laugh:...i didn't take offence to anything you said...i was just agreeing with Buzzard about how people like to put labels on sometimes...i wasn't referring to you...it was just a generalization on my part.

Rev
03-01-2011, 03:43 AM
Stop crying about it you sissies!!:tongue0011:

bradwright
03-01-2011, 03:50 AM
Stop crying about it you sissies!!:tongue0011:

yes Mam...right away.

Chris F
03-01-2011, 04:20 AM
Good point.


Have you ever noticed that whenever somebody calls you out or is willing to engage you in debate you tend to run and hide? You hide behind accusations of "Straw man" or in this case "Converse accident"... if it's about the Bible we get "proof texting" or "out of context"... The Constitution?? We get "original documents" and "you've been brainwashed"....:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Please tell me you are not that blind man. Read his freaking post man. They are nothing but starwmwn and have nothing to do with the price of tea in china. He never once cited any proof for his view. He changed the subject and made it about his pov without addressing the real issue. SO spare me you r sanctiomoious bull crap I am not hiding I am right freaking here and if he wants to discuss using basic logic and not his poor excuse for a dried cowpie philosophy than I will be happy to address it. Till than i will not waste my time on someone who refuses to stay on point and ignore the fact he has failed in all ways to answer the original point. See Chuck you wnet and got me all mad. Shame on you. This rant is all on you man. no more playing nice with you lie and say I want hiding. Maybe if you learned to read and practice grade school logic you'd see bizzard's wings were clipped long ago :wink:

You jump in, make your accusations or attempt to prove your point then jump out and put your shield up when questioned..another lie. It was buzzard who put his 2 cents in and then tried to change the subject and when i called him on it he offered nothing more than horse poo and straw

I think most if not all of Buzzards points were actually quite valid.... BUt they had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He made a comment that was way off base. Read the fraking thread man

Are you hiding? :ninja: :laugh:right here ready to slit any chumps throat who thinks they can even tie my shoe laces



I just don't see how that's mathematically possible. :huh:

in red. They are not nice because you done and went off and seriously urinated me off

Buzzard
03-01-2011, 05:10 AM
I showed you where you lied and called me a liar. It's in print right here for you to read, yet you refuse to. An apology really means nothing to me, except that you aren't a big enough man to apologize when it is called for. That's says so much about you. When debating with you, I'll always keep it in mind that you intentionally lie and I'll always question whether you are telling the truth or not.

I even went and asked you to directly ask me questions and I would answer. Again, you refuse and hide.

You may be a big man physically, but that is where it appears to end. My teenage nephews are bigger men than you will ever be. I guess honesty isn't one of your values which you hold so dear.

Are you going to ask the questions, or are you going to hide and cower again and make asinine insults because you got called out by someone other than myself. Perhaps you, yourself ChrisF, should learn how to read, because you clearly didn't read the reasoning behind the apology request even after I reprinted it a later post.

C'mon man, with all of your advanced degrees you should at least have a modicum of reading comprehension skill.

I'm in the mood for some KFC now.:wink:

J.B.
03-01-2011, 06:02 AM
I'm in the mood for some KFC now.:wink:

Who isn't in the mood for some KFC?

Spiritwalker
03-01-2011, 12:22 PM
Have you ever noticed that whenever somebody calls you out or is willing to engage you in debate you tend to run and hide? You hide behind accusations of "Straw man" or in this case "Converse accident"... if it's about the Bible we get "proof texting" or "out of context"... The Constitution?? We get "original documents" and "you've been brainwashed"....

You jump in, make your accusations or attempt to prove your point then jump out and put your shield up when questioned..


[EDIT] never mind...

Chuck
03-01-2011, 01:53 PM
in red. They are not nice because you done and went off and seriously urinated me off

Did you type all that with a straight face?? :blink::blink:

:tongue0011:


There's an old saying that says "The truth only hurts when it's supposed to"... my guess is whether you like it or not there is some truth to what I posted and that's what's pissed you off so much.

When people make accusations against me that hold no truth... it never bothers me. But people really strike a nerve if they bring up things I know I struggle with....

Food for thought........

KENTUCKYREDBONE
03-01-2011, 05:47 PM
Who isn't in the mood for some KFC?

You buying us all the buffet?

Miss Foxy
03-01-2011, 05:57 PM
You buying us all the buffet?

I prefer Popeyes chicken!! teehee!!

KENTUCKYREDBONE
03-01-2011, 07:03 PM
Never been to a Popeye's! May have to check and see if their is one in my area!

Neezar
03-01-2011, 09:08 PM
So you think people should not have any savings? Nothing for retiremen?


How does a man show he's planning for the future?
He buys two cases of beer instead of one.

Twinsmama
03-01-2011, 09:11 PM
How does a man show he's planning for the future?
He buys two cases of beer instead of one.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

bradwright
03-01-2011, 09:23 PM
How does a man show he's planning for the future?
He buys two cases of beer instead of one.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

who said women dont have a sense of humor..:laugh:

Crisco
03-01-2011, 09:25 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

who said women dont have a sense of humor..:laugh:

Plenty of humor just lack of sense :cool:

Neezar
03-01-2011, 09:27 PM
Plenty of humor just lack of sense :cool:


What's the smartest thing a man can say?
"My wife says..."

Miss Foxy
03-01-2011, 09:27 PM
What's the smartest thing a man can say?
"My wife says..."

:happydancing::happydancing::happydancing:

Crisco
03-01-2011, 09:34 PM
What's the smartest thing a man can say?
"My wife says...this... But we'll do this instead because women are not as smart as men and she is always wrong."

fixed

Twinsmama
03-01-2011, 09:46 PM
What's the smartest thing a man can say?
"My wife says..."

:laugh:

flo
03-01-2011, 11:11 PM
What's the smartest thing a man can say?
"My wife says..."

:happy0159:

:rotfl:

Chris F
03-02-2011, 12:58 AM
Did you type all that with a straight face?? :blink::blink:

:tongue0011:


There's an old saying that says "The truth only hurts when it's supposed to"... my guess is whether you like it or not there is some truth to what I posted and that's what's pissed you off so much.

When people make accusations against me that hold no truth... it never bothers me. But people really strike a nerve if they bring up things I know I struggle with....

Food for thought........

Come on Chuck did you not see the wink eye emoticon. I am yanking your chain brother. I can careless less what Buzzard says or thinks. I as I have said millions of times do not need anyones agreement to know i am right.:) I did not have a straight face because I was laughing the entire time. I knew you would respnd the wya you did. I thought for sure you'd see the wink and know better :laugh:

Play The Man
03-02-2011, 05:28 AM
if there is a minimum wage so everyone has a chance to make a living maybe there should be a maximum wage.

I think atheletes, actors, ceos and politicians are overpaid.

if the people in charge weren't so busy paying themselves there would be plenty of money to go around and unions wouldn't be necessary

what do ya think about that...

no one can make over 100 grand a year....that sounds fair, that would be a nice living
AdamT, I think you should read a little AdamS(mith). Your recommendation would almost certainly lead to less wealth and a lower standard of living for everyone.

You mentioned athletes; Do you think Matt Hughes is overpaid? If Matt is paid $250K for a fight, how does that hurt anyone?

When Matt agrees to a fight, it causes so many economic ripples, it is almost an economic tsunami. People buy PPVs. People buy tickets. Matt and his family profit, but they are not the only ones. Many, many people profit from that economic activity - ticket vendors, ushers, parking lot attendants, coaches, ring girls, concession stand workers, announcers, referees, judges, doctors, cable company employees, pubs, waitresses, bartenders, etc., etc., etc. If you limited his salary to $100K a year, he would probably retire. Why starve yourself, workout for hours on end, be separated from your wife and kids, and risk getting punched in the face or suffer an injury? When Matt gets paid his $250K, I would bet he doesn't hoard a pile of gold somewhere. He probably buys new farm equipment (John Deere employees benefit and his farm becomes more productive), invests in his gym (benefits the employees and students of the gym), goes on hunting trips (benefits hunting guides, lodges, firearms companies, etc.) and buys things for his kids (piano lessons, bicycles, etc.) It almost seems like you think it would be better for him to be at home making soap or canning jam. These activities are useful activities, but not the most productive thing for someone blessed with a unique gift. He should get paid whatever the market will bear. Don't covet his gifts.

Neezar
03-02-2011, 11:54 AM
AdamT, I think you should read a little AdamS(mith). Your recommendation would almost certainly lead to less wealth and a lower standard of living for everyone.

You mentioned athletes; Do you think Matt Hughes is overpaid? If Matt is paid $250K for a fight, how does that hurt anyone?

When Matt agrees to a fight, it causes so many economic ripples, it is almost an economic tsunami. People buy PPVs. People buy tickets. Matt and his family profit, but they are not the only ones. Many, many people profit from that economic activity - ticket vendors, ushers, parking lot attendants, coaches, ring girls, concession stand workers, announcers, referees, judges, doctors, cable company employees, pubs, waitresses, bartenders, etc., etc., etc. If you limited his salary to $100K a year, he would probably retire. Why starve yourself, workout for hours on end, be separated from your wife and kids, and risk getting punched in the face or suffer an injury? When Matt gets paid his $250K, I would bet he doesn't hoard a pile of gold somewhere. He probably buys new farm equipment (John Deere employees benefit and his farm becomes more productive), invests in his gym (benefits the employees and students of the gym), goes on hunting trips (benefits hunting guides, lodges, firearms companies, etc.) and buys things for his kids (piano lessons, bicycles, etc.) It almost seems like you think it would be better for him to be at home making soap or canning jam. These activities are useful activities, but not the most productive thing for someone blessed with a unique gift. He should get paid whatever the market will bear. Don't covet his gifts.

Good points.

Bonnie
03-02-2011, 12:44 PM
AdamT, I think you should read a little AdamS(mith). Your recommendation would almost certainly lead to less wealth and a lower standard of living for everyone.

You mentioned athletes; Do you think Matt Hughes is overpaid? If Matt is paid $250K for a fight, how does that hurt anyone?

When Matt agrees to a fight, it causes so many economic ripples, it is almost an economic tsunami. People buy PPVs. People buy tickets. Matt and his family profit, but they are not the only ones. Many, many people profit from that economic activity - ticket vendors, ushers, parking lot attendants, coaches, ring girls, concession stand workers, announcers, referees, judges, doctors, cable company employees, pubs, waitresses, bartenders, etc., etc., etc. If you limited his salary to $100K a year, he would probably retire. Why starve yourself, workout for hours on end, be separated from your wife and kids, and risk getting punched in the face or suffer an injury? When Matt gets paid his $250K, I would bet he doesn't hoard a pile of gold somewhere. He probably buys new farm equipment (John Deere employees benefit and his farm becomes more productive), invests in his gym (benefits the employees and students of the gym), goes on hunting trips (benefits hunting guides, lodges, firearms companies, etc.) and buys things for his kids (piano lessons, bicycles, etc.) It almost seems like you think it would be better for him to be at home making soap or canning jam. These activities are useful activities, but not the most productive thing for someone blessed with a unique gift. He should get paid whatever the market will bear. Don't covet his gifts.

You know, I already think you're some kind of genius, but using Matt as the athlete example...beyond genius. :laugh:

Very good points! You swayed me! :laugh:

Chuck
03-02-2011, 01:43 PM
You know, I already think you're some kind of genius, but using Matt as the athlete example...beyond genius. :laugh:

Very good points! You swayed me! :laugh:

Wait!!! Time out!!!! Back that truck up!!!!

I have ALWAYS thought PTM is a genius but using Matt as an example on Matt's site to a Matt fan shouldn't sway anybody!!!

I mean heck, even I could have thought of that!!!! :D

Bonnie
03-02-2011, 01:53 PM
Wait!!! Time out!!!! Back that truck up!!!!

I have ALWAYS thought PTM is a genius but using Matt as an example on Matt's site to a Matt fan shouldn't sway anybody!!!

I mean heck, even I could have thought of that!!!! :D

But that's the thing, I've always thought in terms of "too" highly-paid athletes being the football, baseball and basketball players. Even though I'm on Matt's site and a Matt fan, it never crossed my mind...for some reason. :rolleyes: :laugh:

Now stop coveting PTM's genius! :tongue0011:

:laugh:

Rev
03-02-2011, 02:01 PM
Wait!!! Time out!!!! Back that truck up!!!!

I have ALWAYS thought PTM is a genius but using Matt as an example on Matt's site to a Matt fan shouldn't sway anybody!!!

I mean heck, even I could have thought of that!!!! :D

But you didnt:laugh:

Chuck
03-02-2011, 02:16 PM
But that's the thing, I've always thought in terms of "too" highly-paid athletes being the football, baseball and basketball players. Even though I'm on Matt's site and a Matt fan, it never crossed my mind...for some reason. :rolleyes: :laugh:

Now stop coveting PTM's genius! :tongue0011:

:laugh:
Even a small flame shines brightly in complete darkness... :Whistle:

:tongue0011:


But you didnt:laugh:

Oh pipe down Mister!! :D :D

Rev
03-02-2011, 02:43 PM
:ninja::tongue0011:

Neezar
03-03-2011, 04:28 AM
If a man says something in a forrest, alone, where no one can hear him is he still wrong?