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rockdawg21
01-26-2011, 08:53 PM
While we're on the subject: http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6781

I agree with Herschel that MMA needs a union. I'm VERY MUCH against unions, but when Dana White is paying fighters $4000 a night to fight, the top guys get $500,000 including a bonus, and White is worth more than $200 million, there's something VERY wrong with that picture IMO.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/mma/post/2011/01/herschel-walker-mma-safer-than-football/1
Herschel Walker: MMA safer than football

By Sergio Non, USA TODAY

The man who won a Heisman Trophy in college and ran for more than 13,000 yards in 15 years in professional football believes mixed martial arts is a safer endeavor.

"People shy away from it because they think it's a brutal, brutal sport, and I've said, 'Guys, MMA is safer than football and boxing,' " Walker said Monday during a conference call. "And people tell me they don't believe it. Am I not the most credible person to give you the answer to that? Because I played football."

Walker is scheduled to face Scott Carson on Saturday (10 p.m. ET, Showtime) for Strikeforce. It will be Walker's second MMA bout, nearly a year after his professional fighting debut.

MMA is safer than football because mixed martial arts allows tapouts and calls on referees to stop the action as soon as a fighter is too stunned to defend himself, Walker said.

"Football you have all the concussions, all the types of joint injuries," he said. "Whereas in MMA, if you get knocked out, the referee can stop it. Or you can tap out."

But mixed martial arts, Walker said, should adopt one concept from football: a union. Collective bargaining power would let fighters reap the benefits enjoyed by athletes in team sports, Walker said.

"The thing that I've thought about more than anything is being a good ambassador for the sport," Walker said. Being able to help these guys. Maybe to help these guys get insurance. Maybe to help these guys make a little more money. ... I see that there's money starting to be made at it. I want these guys to get their piece of the pie."

States that regulate mixed martial arts require promoters to provide medical insurance to cover injuries sustained during a fight. The Ultimate Fighting Championship, for instance, carries more insurance than states require.

But many injuries occur during training, which is the fighter's problem, along with illnesses and ailments of family members.

A union would be a tough sell to top fighters who make millions, Walker said.

"You saw it in football," he said. "Football players are the same way. But sometimes you've got to look at more than yourself. ... I hate to say you've got to play on their heartstrings, but that's important. The well-paid guys, why do they want that? Because they're being paid OK. But it's not all about you."

Mixed martial arts executives have been non-committal about the notion of a union for fighters. "We're not in a position to say we're for it or we're against it," UFC co-owner Lorenzo Fertitta said last year. "That's entirely up to them."

adamt
01-26-2011, 10:56 PM
While we're on the subject: http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6781

I agree with Herschel that MMA needs a union. I'm VERY MUCH against unions, but when Dana White is paying fighters $4000 a night to fight, the top guys get $500,000 including a bonus, and White is worth more than $200 million, there's something VERY wrong with that picture IMO.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/mma/post/2011/01/herschel-walker-mma-safer-than-football/1


can we get a source for that?

even some dumb no name kid got 8000 to fight on live tv the last ufc, and tv time equals sponsor moola, now three more times this year and i say that kid is making a pretty decent living being a part time no name fighter, which some guys would do for free

maybe it is football that needs cheaper paid players

J.B.
01-27-2011, 12:17 AM
can we get a source for that?

even some dumb no name kid got 8000 to fight on live tv the last ufc, and tv time equals sponsor moola, now three more times this year and i say that kid is making a pretty decent living being a part time no name fighter, which some guys would do for free

maybe it is football that needs cheaper paid players

LOL...

There are plenty of fighters getting around 5 grand, and 8 grand ain't much better. Sponsors are great, but they don't all pay out as much as you would think. Then you gotta remember that the UFC has the end say who can be sponsors and who can't. Then you have to consider that all that money is before taxes. Why do you think there are so many fighters in the UFC who have other jobs?

Football needs "cheaper paid players"? :laugh: :rolleyes:

Never gonna happen, and as long as the NFL is our nations new past-time, they shouldn't be paid any less.

With that being said, a fighters union or collective bargaining agreement is not gonna happen in MMA anytime soon, if ever.

adamt
01-27-2011, 12:35 AM
LOL...

There are plenty of fighters getting around 5 grand, and 8 grand ain't much better. Sponsors are great, but they don't all pay out as much as you would think. Then you gotta remember that the UFC has the end say who can be sponsors and who can't. Then you have to consider that all that money is before taxes. Why do you think there are so many fighters in the UFC who have other jobs?

Football needs "cheaper paid players"? :laugh: :rolleyes:

Never gonna happen, and as long as the NFL is our nations new past-time, they shouldn't be paid any less.

With that being said, a fighters union or collective bargaining agreement is not gonna happen in MMA anytime soon, if ever.


that is why it is hard to get too worried about the economy, cause people can go watch perfectly good fun football games at their local high school for nearly nothing but instead they opt to paid hundreds if not thousands to attend football games between the "best" players, but the best have become overpaid snots.

when people stop paying out the wazoo for entertainment then i might believe the economy is bad

i'll be glad to fight one night for 5k to lose, i could do that every other month and make a decent living and not even keep up another job, are they paid as much as nfl blue bloods? no they aren't, so if they want money, go play football

rockdawg21
01-27-2011, 01:08 AM
can we get a source for that?

even some dumb no name kid got 8000 to fight on live tv the last ufc, and tv time equals sponsor moola, now three more times this year and i say that kid is making a pretty decent living being a part time no name fighter, which some guys would do for free

maybe it is football that needs cheaper paid players
LOL, $8000 for a fight when most guys only fight 2-3 times a year is nothing.
Dude this is all public knowledge, go look it up, I thought everybody here knew about this injustice. Anyways, I'll provide you with a few:

http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6329&highlight=salaries
http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4284&highlight=salaries
http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3557&highlight=salaries
http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2748&highlight=salaries

Point being is the fighters are extremely underpaid with regards to what White and the Ferittas are earning. In 2009, the UFC did $200 million in just PPV revenues and as you can tell, are usually giving out 1-2 million per night (2 million on the nights Brock fights) and with 10-12 UFC PPV's a year, that's less than 10% going back to the fighters. That doesn't include endorsements, sponsorships, gates, etc. Overall, I'll bet the UFC only shells out 5% to its' fighters which is pathetic.

J.B.
01-27-2011, 01:19 AM
that is why it is hard to get too worried about the economy, cause people can go watch perfectly good fun football games at their local high school for nearly nothing but instead they opt to paid hundreds if not thousands to attend football games between the "best" players, but the best have become overpaid snots.

when people stop paying out the wazoo for entertainment then i might believe the economy is bad

i'll be glad to fight one night for 5k to lose, i could do that every other month and make a decent living and not even keep up another job, are they paid as much as nfl blue bloods? no they aren't, so if they want money, go play football

The players in the NFL are "the best". Football at the lower levels is just not the same game, thus it's not worthy of same kind of ticket prices. These are "the best" players in their physical primes. Also, it's easy to say somebody is overpaid when they make millions of dollars, but that lacks context.

Professional sports is about showcasing the talent it takes to perform on the highest levels. It's that talent that drives fans to go to games and buy merchandise, which is why it's the athletes who deserve to make more than half of the profits.

More money for fighters means they can spend more time focusing on their craft. They can have better training and be more focused and comfortable with their lives leading up to a fight. I'm not saying a fighter with tons of money can't lose their edge because of that extra comfort, but it's still better than guys having to hold down a second job while fighting for the biggest MMA org on the planet.

At the same time, a lot of MMA fans could really care less what happens to the fighters or what they get paid as long as they see two guys knock each others heads off. As long as the UFC can keep the hype train rolling on track, they will keep selling mediocre cards at the same prices as their biggest cards and nobody will know the difference.

Chuck
01-27-2011, 02:49 AM
...and White is worth more than $200 million, there's something VERY wrong with that picture IMO.

Point being is the fighters are extremely underpaid with regards to what White and the Ferittas are earning.
What White and the Ferittas make should have nothing to do with this conversation. That's the problem. The vast majority of the fighters in MMA have enough talent and skill to pursue a pro career in other sports. If they don't like what the UFC pays then don't work there. Period. It's a choice.. if they don't like it then chose something else.

The whole "if Person X makes this much then I deserve more" argument isn't what our Nation was built on, it's what's ruining it.

Compare what the average franchise owner of a McDonalds makes compared to a minimum wage earning employee. The average CEO vs. labor in any company is going to be disproportionate. It's called capitalism and it's the backbone of our country.

And for the record I completely agree with you that the fighters should make more money, I just don't support using what Dana or the Ferittas make as part of the argument.



The players in the NFL are "the best". Football at the lower levels is just not the same game, thus it's not worthy of same kind of ticket prices. These are "the best" players in their physical primes. Also, it's easy to say somebody is overpaid when they make millions of dollars, but that lacks context.
I think it's virtually impossible to compare an individual combat sport to a professional team sport. MMA is still in it's infancy compared to the major team sports out there. Comparing the early days of those sports to the UFC now would be more fair but still not accurate. Compare it to boxing or other combat sports and see how it stacks up. Anybody remember PKA? Where is the outrage at how much Bill Wallace made? What about IKA or WKA? Like it or not... and think about this... REALLY think about it... if you want to make a living out of hitting people then the UFC is the best you're going to get. And I'm not really sure they deserve much better.

rockdawg21
01-27-2011, 03:00 AM
What White and the Ferittas make should have nothing to do with this conversation. That's the problem. The vast majority of the fighters in MMA have enough talent and skill to pursue a pro career in other sports. If they don't like what the UFC pays then don't work there. Period. It's a choice.. if they don't like it then chose something else.

The whole "if Person X makes this much then I deserve more" argument isn't what our Nation was built on, it's what's ruining it.

Compare what the average franchise owner of a McDonalds makes compared to a minimum wage earning employee. The average CEO vs. labor in any company is going to be disproportionate. It's called capitalism and it's the backbone of our country.

And for the record I completely agree with you that the fighters should make more money, I just don't support using what Dana or the Ferittas make as part of the argument.
Ok, then if you don't want to discuss that, discuss the other topic at hand - injuries.

Chuck
01-27-2011, 03:22 AM
Ok, then if you don't want to discuss that, discuss the other topic at hand - injuries.

Um..... the NFL is more dangerous than MMA.

:laugh:

rockdawg21
01-27-2011, 04:17 AM
Um..... the NFL is more dangerous than MMA.

:laugh:
LOL, agreed very much! :D

J.B.
01-27-2011, 08:09 AM
Compare what the average franchise owner of a McDonalds makes compared to a minimum wage earning employee. The average CEO vs. labor in any company is going to be disproportionate. It's called capitalism and it's the backbone of our country.


When I was 17 years old I was a manager at McDonalds...:wink:

I ask you this...

What talent does it take to work at Mcdonalds? Or some assembly line for that matter? Answer...ZERO. If a person can't handle that job, they are easily replaced. How easy is it to replace a QB like Ben Turdburger? :)

These guys at the highest levels of pro-sports are there because they are talented at their craft, above and beyond the rest of the talent-pool.

To suggest that Dana and the UFC deserves more of the cut simply for being the bankroll while selling nothing but bulls**t is totally crazy to me. These guys lay their lives and integrity on the line every time they go out there and get hit in the face.

SO, I don't think it's too crazy to suggest that maybe Dana White doesn't need the biggest swimming pool in Vegas if it means that some of these guys on the lower end of the totem-poll can be better compensated. I have no problem with capitalism, but ridiculous greed is just as dangerous as socialism.

adamt
01-27-2011, 12:00 PM
When I was 17 years old I was a manager at McDonalds...:wink:

I ask you this...

What talent does it take to work at Mcdonalds? Or some assembly line for that matter? Answer...ZERO. If a person can't handle that job, they are easily replaced. How easy is it to replace a QB like Ben Turdburger? :)

These guys at the highest levels of pro-sports are there because they are talented at their craft, above and beyond the rest of the talent-pool.

To suggest that Dana and the UFC deserves more of the cut simply for being the bankroll while selling nothing but bulls**t is totally crazy to me. These guys lay their lives and integrity on the line every time they go out there and get hit in the face.

SO, I don't think it's too crazy to suggest that maybe Dana White doesn't need the biggest swimming pool in Vegas if it means that some of these guys on the lower end of the totem-poll can be better compensated. I have no problem with capitalism, but ridiculous greed is just as dangerous as socialism.


jb you make a good analogy , one that will prove my point just as well thouhg

people actually put eating on the same level as entertainment theses days, actually people actually pay more on entertainment than they do to eat nowadays

you need to eat, you don't need to watch football, yet the food you eat has to be the best for the least, and the stuff you watch has to be the best of the best

if you want to compare x to x compare what spoiled entertainers make to what necessary workers make, and by necessary workers i mean the people that build, grow, feed and make american necessities, like food, clothing and housing --- those are the people that should be millionaires


and don't get me started on what the overpaid pompouses make that are supposedly "serving" our country as politicians make, if they are serving seems to me they should do it for next to nothing, there are millions of people that would do it, we should capitalize on it and hire the cheapest people we can, they can't do worse than is there now

and aren't you guys that think fighters need more pay, the same ones complaining that gsp is getting paid too much and needs to stop fighting for the money:rolleyes:


all these guys are thrilled to death when they get to fight in the ufc and then when they win once somehow they are underpaid, truth is, there are a thousand guys that coulda fought pettis and one guy was lucky enough to GET to do it, he woulda done it for nothing

maybe rockdawg could start another ufc, since it seems to be so easy someone like the fertitas and dana could do it, obviously anyone could do it and dana is WAY overpaid, cause he is disposable, he shouldn't be rewarded by the industry that wouldn't exist were it not for him, he only put mma in the mainstream, it is guys like poirer and dent that will make this sport accepted, they are the ones we can't afford not to make into millionaires:rolleyes:

J.B.
01-27-2011, 09:17 PM
jb you make a good analogy , one that will prove my point just as well thouhg

people actually put eating on the same level as entertainment theses days, actually people actually pay more on entertainment than they do to eat nowadays

you need to eat, you don't need to watch football, yet the food you eat has to be the best for the least, and the stuff you watch has to be the best of the best

if you want to compare x to x compare what spoiled entertainers make to what necessary workers make, and by necessary workers i mean the people that build, grow, feed and make american necessities, like food, clothing and housing --- those are the people that should be millionaires

and don't get me started on what the overpaid pompouses make that are supposedly "serving" our country as politicians make, if they are serving seems to me they should do it for next to nothing, there are millions of people that would do it, we should capitalize on it and hire the cheapest people we can, they can't do worse than is there now


I understand your point about people's priorities, but it still doesn't change the fact that the fighters at the highest level of the sport are being underpaid in terms of what the profits are.

How can you talk about capitalism and then call the athletes and entertainers the "spoiled" ones who are overpaid? Don't they have the same expectation of CAPITALIZING on their talents?


and aren't you guys that think fighters need more pay, the same ones complaining that gsp is getting paid too much and needs to stop fighting for the money:rolleyes:

Please show me where I said that.


all these guys are thrilled to death when they get to fight in the ufc and then when they win once somehow they are underpaid, truth is, there are a thousand guys that coulda fought pettis and one guy was lucky enough to GET to do it, he woulda done it for nothing

Um...no. There is NOT a thousand guys that could have fought Anthony Pettis, and Ben Henderson would NOT have done it for nothing. It seems you think these guys should just be doing it for the hell of it, and not to make a better life for themselves and their families. I suppose the praise of all these GREAT fans is all they need. Heaven forbid a guy wanna make enough money to buy a new house and a car and take care of his family when he is talented enough to be accepted into the biggest MMA org in the world.


maybe rockdawg could start another ufc, since it seems to be so easy someone like the fertitas and dana could do it, obviously anyone could do it and dana is WAY overpaid, cause he is disposable, he shouldn't be rewarded by the industry that wouldn't exist were it not for him, he only put mma in the mainstream, it is guys like poirer and dent that will make this sport accepted, they are the ones we can't afford not to make into millionaires:rolleyes:

So it's okay to be "spoiled" if your name is Dana White, but not if you are an athlete or entertainer?

Did you forget how much money Zuffa was losing when they first got into MMA? Since we are putting the athletes and entertainers on blast for wanting to get paid, and the general public for spending tons of money on entertainment, why not pitch a fit over all the money that was wasted starting this empire? That money could have fed children, built houses, or done lots of other more productive things for society.

It took a semi-scripted reality show and two guys landing bombs on each other for 3 rounds to put this sport on the map in the mainstream. Nobody said that the lowest tier fighters need to be millionaires, but they shouldn't have to worry about holding down a second job while fighting in the biggest MMA promotion in the world.

Let's also not forget where all that money the Fertita's have came from. It wasn't from building houses, making clothes, or preparing food. It was essentially all profits from gambling.

adamt
01-27-2011, 10:25 PM
yeah jb i don't think we disagree that far really, certainly not worth arguing over, i stated my points, but really i am not that convicted and stuck on them, i was just yapping....

you make good points, i don't think it is a clear cut answer, but mostly i don't really care all that much, it is beyond me


so, having said that

i don't think danger can really be used to describe a sport, but i will vote that football is harder on the body overall

however, 3 minutes of mma is harder on the body than 3 minutes of a football game

J.B.
01-27-2011, 10:49 PM
yeah jb i don't think we disagree that far really, certainly not worth arguing over, i stated my points, but really i am not that convicted and stuck on them, i was just yapping....

you make good points, i don't think it is a clear cut answer, but mostly i don't really care all that much, it is beyond me


so, having said that

i don't think danger can really be used to describe a sport, but i will vote that football is harder on the body overall

however, 3 minutes of mma is harder on the body than 3 minutes of a football game

Most definitely brother, I'm not really trying to argue at all. Just yapping as usual :laugh:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
01-27-2011, 11:18 PM
I'm not sure how much Union's would help MMA. But what I do believe would be good for MMA,fan's and the fighter's is more legit MMA company's competeing for the services of the fighter's and the fan's dollars!