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Spiritwalker
01-21-2011, 03:19 AM
I honestly had tears in my eyes when I read this....

I honestly feel that I am a stone cold SOB in most areas... kids and animals can get to me.. but unless I am personally involved.. I don't really feel that blinding rage.. that sorrow.. that comes with this type of story....

I pray to God.. yes for those of you that think I don't believe in God... I do pray that the lives lost did not feel much pain..

I warn you.. reading this story is similar to viewing the decapitation of Daniel Pearl.. your curious.. but after wards.. you really wish you hadn't clicked the link..

For those of you with kids.. like me.. you might not want to read this story...

Why post it.. if it is so bad.. cause people should know.. that people in this story.. actually exists...

We all talk about "slow deaths" for some individuals... this "doctor".. deserves the longest.. and slowest possible.

And Hell.. what ever the form... I hope welcomes this "doctor".

I honestly don't know how I will sleep tonight... this is like a physical pain...

What I am curious about.. is why isn't this all over CNN and other major news networks.. is it just too horrible to actually broadcast???

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20110119_Gruesome_details_in_report_on_Philadelphi a_abortion_doctor.html?page=1&c=y

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/philadelphia-abortion-doctor-accused-killing-babies-scissors-charged/story?id=12649868

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/19/philadelphia-abortion-doctor-charged-counts-murder/

flo
01-21-2011, 03:43 AM
Here is the face of the abortion Dr. Mengele.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/gosnell.jpg

I feel sickened, I couldn't even finish reading the first link.

rockdawg21
01-21-2011, 05:20 AM
I made it through about 4 sentences and closed the link. I can't even describe what I feel inside right now.

Neezar
01-21-2011, 05:31 AM
"There were bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses scattered throughout the building," Williams said. "There were jars, lining shelves, with severed feet that he kept for no medical purpose."

Stormhammer
01-21-2011, 08:21 AM
I can't stop shivering from that. Honestly. What he is doing is called a ritual sacrifice. Partial birth abortion and full birth abortion are of the same soulless mindset that Molech worshipers had, and what they did to their infants in old testament days exceeds this only by a slim margin.

I'll have the willies for days from this.

I can't understand, beyond it simply being sin, that a liberal can have kids of their own and support abortion with open arms.

They're the type of people that follow these, the ten commandments of pagan worship:

http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

County Mike
01-21-2011, 12:48 PM
I read about this yesterday. Give 5 minutes with this guy and a pair of bolt cutters. Show him what it feels like.

cubsfan47
01-21-2011, 01:02 PM
This story reminds me of a local one that happened five yeas ago. It seems that some city workers found that the trash container of a local funeral home contained bags holding the remains of aborted fetuses. Yeah really.:angry:

To those reformers who had hoped abortion would be "safe but rare" what do you think now?

Miss Foxy
01-21-2011, 02:51 PM
I read about this yesterday. Give 5 minutes with this guy and a pair of bolt cutters. Show him what it feels like.

+1 What a sick SOB.. And all those people that worked there!

TENNESSEAN
01-21-2011, 04:39 PM
"I am aware that abortion is a hot-button topic," Williams told reporters. "But as district attorney, my job is to carry out the law. A doctor who knowingly and systematically mistreats female patients, to the point that one of them dies in his so-called care, commits murder under the law."

Mr district attorney, What about the fact that this guy kills live babies, cuts their feet off and puts them on a shelf like a trophy? Ohh yeah, that's a hot-button topic lets not talk about that.

lets pity the woman that died wanting him stab her baby in the back with a pair of scissors and cut the babies spinal cord. shes the real victim here.

they should find every one of those woman and charge them with murder, they paid this sicko to murder for them.

Miss Foxy
01-21-2011, 04:41 PM
"I am aware that abortion is a hot-button topic," Williams told reporters. "But as district attorney, my job is to carry out the law. A doctor who knowingly and systematically mistreats female patients, to the point that one of them dies in his so-called care, commits murder under the law."

Mr district attorney, What about the fact that this guy kills live babies, cuts their feet off and puts them on a shelf like a trophy? Ohh yeah, that's a hot-button topic lets not talk about that.

lets pity the woman that died wanting him stab her baby in the back with a pair of scissors and cut the babies spinal cord. shes the real victim here.

they should find every one of those woman and charge them with murder, they paid this sicko to murder for them. :mad0233:

Yup! I don't see how they only care about the "poor women" who knowingly went in there to kill their baby!? Same guilt as the doctor, staff, and anyone condoning abortion..May they all rot in hell..What about the helpless babies who had to endure that pain?

Rev
01-21-2011, 05:45 PM
Why do I not feel sorry for the woman?

Spiritwalker
01-21-2011, 05:54 PM
Why do I not feel sorry for the woman?

Walking into a room.. that's described in these articles.. and sitting there waiting.. no.. I find it really difficult

Miss Foxy
01-21-2011, 05:57 PM
Walking into a room.. that's described in these articles.. and sitting there waiting.. no.. I find it really difficult

Exactly they all need to watch Juno! We need more people like Sue Chin reminding them their babies have fingernails...

Rev
01-21-2011, 06:01 PM
lol, never thought I would ever hear someone say that about this subject, but i see your point. lol

Spiritwalker
01-21-2011, 06:12 PM
Exactly they all need to watch Juno! We need more people like Sue Chin reminding them their babies have fingernails...

Education please????

Miss Foxy
01-21-2011, 06:16 PM
Education please????

In the movie the character Juno was going to the abortion clinic and she seen her classmate Sue Chin (anti-abortion activist) and when she was walking towards the clinic Sue yelled "your baby has fingernails." So when she went in and looked around and sat down she started doubting her choice and she ran out of the clinic so in essence her baby was saved. She adopted out the child to someone in lieu of abortion..

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 06:25 PM
I read a few comments and thought "I don't think I need to even click that link" because I'm so pro-life. Then I figured if I was going to comment I should at least check it out. So I click on the ABC news liking and when the website name loaded above the tool bar I quickly shut the window before I had to see one single word of the article.

When I was 14 I went to a Judgement House. Some of you may be familiar with these. They are put on about Halloween like a house of horror to show teenagers the drastic outcome of bad choices. Well on a table outside there were pamplets about out types of things: drinkg an driving, drugs, sex, and one on abortion. On the back of the abortion pamplet there was a picture of several dozen babies, bloodied in a trash bag. The picture has never left me. That pamplet discussed partial birth abortions. Babys as far along as 8 months would be delivered breach (feet first if you don't know that) and once the neck was visible the doctor would insert scissors in it's neck and cut off the nevers going to the brain causing instant death. The baby's head would then be delivered and the boby trashed. Most states (if not all) have made this illegal because a 8 months old baby can live outside the womb. There are numerous stories of babies aborted this way that mother claim they heard cry because the doctor didn't cut all the nerves. But just as baby is the 6 week old baby aborted. They have nerves at 6 weeks and feel pain when the acidic solutions is injected into the placenta.

It is all sickening to think of and it saddens me the abortion have become a regular form of birth control for women.

Oh and btw Michelle Obama was feature on a mailing that went out in support of late term abortions.

Miss Foxy
01-21-2011, 06:30 PM
I read a few comments and thought "I don't think I need to even click that link" because I'm so pro-life. Then I figured if I was going to comment I should at least check it out. So I click on the ABC news liking and when the website name loaded above the tool bar I quickly shut the window before I had to see one single word of the article.

When I was 14 I went to a Judgement House. Some of you may be familiar with these. They are put on about Halloween like a house of horror to show teenagers the drastic outcome of bad choices. Well on a table outside there were pamplets about out types of things: drinkg an driving, drugs, sex, and one on abortion. On the back of the abortion pamplet there was a picture of several dozen babies, bloodied in a trash bag. The picture has never left me. That pamplet discussed partial birth abortions. Babys as far along as 8 months would be delivered breach (feet first if you don't know that) and once the neck was visible the doctor would insert scissors in it's neck and cut off the nevers going to the brain causing instant death. The baby's head would then be delivered and the boby trashed. Most states (if not all) have made this illegal because a 8 months old baby can live outside the womb. There are numerous stories of babies aborted this way that mother claim they heard cry because the doctor didn't cut all the nerves. But just as baby is the 6 week old baby aborted. They have nerves at 6 weeks and feel pain when the acidic solutions is injected into the placenta.

It is all sickening to think of and it saddens me the abortion have become a regular form of birth control for women.

Oh and btw Michelle Obama was feature on a mailing that went out in support of late term abortions.

I am with ya girl.. I cannot express how passionate I am about being ANTI-abortion.. I tell people at conception its a baby so don't try to justify to me that it's only in the first trimester BS! I am especially sickened with the late term slaughter. Who the fk can do that or have that done?? Makes my eyes fill with tears and heart pound with emotion. Horrible. Shame to anyone voting pro choice..:angry:

Spiritwalker
01-21-2011, 06:32 PM
Oh and btw Michelle Obama was feature on a mailing that went out in support of late term abortions.


Do you still have that?

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 06:36 PM
"The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion because if a mother can kill her own child, what is left for me to kill you and you to kill me? There is nothing between."

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."

Quotes from Mother Teresa

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 06:37 PM
Do you still have that?

I never had one myself, but there was a story on the news about is right around the election.

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 06:57 PM
:unsure-1: I dont understand...if you are a woman, and you want an abortion, why do you not go right away and have the child aborted when its legal to do so.

This guy wasnt aborting babies...he was perfoming breach births and then physically killing the surviving babies...which were by the sounds of it nearly full term.

These werent groups of cells, they werent things that couldnt survive...these were premature babies that could, with medical technology actually live despite being forced out of their Mothers a month in advance. not only do I understand how he could do that...but what excuse do the mothers have...abortions are bad enough...but you dont wait for the eighth month, induce labour, and then kill the almost perfectly formed human offspring do you??

Miss Foxy
01-21-2011, 07:00 PM
:unsure-1: I dont understand...if you are a woman, and you want an abortion, why do you not go right away and have the child aborted when its legal to do so.

This guy wasnt aborting babies...he was perfoming breach births and then physically killing the surviving babies...which were by the sounds of it nearly full term.

These werent groups of cells, they werent things that couldnt survive...these were premature babies that could, with medical technology actually live despite being forced out of their Mothers a month in advance. not only do I understand how he could do that...but what excuse do the mothers have...abortions are bad enough...but you dont wait for the eighth month, induce labour, and then kill the almost perfectly formed human offspring do you??
Newsfreaking flash Tyburn...Abortion is murder.. Period!!! Having an abortion in the first few weeks is still murder!

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 07:04 PM
Newsfreaking flash Tyburn...Abortion is murder.. Period!!! Having an abortion in the first few weeks is still murder!

yes...but why when you could do that legally...would you CHOOSE not to??

Murder is murder...but not all murder is sadistic...to wait until the child is capable of life outside its mother, and then kill it, is sadistic..you've waited deliberatley for the child to be as aware as possible.

Thats MORE then murder Miss Foxy...far more then Murder.

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 07:25 PM
The problem comes in that there was ever a discussion of when life beings. If the laws on man were in line with the laws on God all abortions would be illegal, regardless of the length of gestation. Life would be seen to begin at conception (which is does), not when the baby is able to survive outside the womb. Even though the baby is not capable of living outside of the womb at say 10 weeks, the death of that baby is just as tragic as that of these babies that were. And the 10 week baby has features of life, medically speaking. I don't understand how anyone could call it anything less than murder. Even someone who doesn't see the baby as living knows that left unharmed would become air breathing baby. This issue really is not when life begins. That is merely a cover for people to use as an arguing point over the legal side of abotion. The bottom line is our liberal society lives under the condition that no one should have to be responsible and if it comes at the cost of killing a baby as long as the selfish can take an easy way out the laws should protect their "right" to be a POS!

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 07:34 PM
1)The problem comes in that there was ever a discussion of when life beings. If the laws on man were in line with the laws on God all abortions would be illegal, regardless of the length of gestation. Life would be seen to begin at conception (which is does), not when the baby is able to survive outside the womb. Even though the baby is not capable of living outside of the womb at say 10 weeks, the death of that baby is just as tragic as that of these babies that were. And the 10 week baby has features of life, medically speaking. I don't understand how anyone could call it anything less than murder. Even someone who doesn't see the baby as living knows that left unharmed would become air breathing baby. This issue really is not when life begins. That is merely a cover for people to use as an arguing point over the legal side of abotion. The bottom line is our liberal society lives under the condition that no one should have to be responsible and if it comes at the cost of killing a baby as long as the selfish can take an easy way out the laws should protect their "right" to be a POS!

1) Yes...but the law of man is NOT in line with the law of GOD, thus it has deemed legal termination up to the point where the person can survive on its own

On the topic AT HAND, which is a SPECIFIC case of abortion which the State DOES deem as being Illegal...the irony is, the Women must have waited, deliberatly, waited, until the Child COULD survive on its own. Until it was TOO LATE TO HAVE AN ABORTION because the Child wouldnt be killed as in a misscariage...but the child would simply be born. A misscarige is a natural abortion.

There is a difference between getting pregnant and getting rid of an unwanted child, and getting pregnant, waiting for EIGHT MONTHS, having birth induced, and then slaughtering the living child OUTSIDE OF THE WOMB

that is MORE then murder, that is Sadism aswell

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 07:46 PM
1) Yes...but the law of man is NOT in line with the law of GOD, thus it has deemed legal termination up to the point where the person can survive on its own

On the topic AT HAND, which is a SPECIFIC case of abortion which the State DOES deem as being Illegal...the irony is, the Women must have waited, deliberatly, waited, until the Child COULD survive on its own. Until it was TOO LATE TO HAVE AN ABORTION because the Child wouldnt be killed as in a misscariage...but the child would simply be born. A misscarige is a natural abortion.

There is a difference between getting pregnant and getting rid of an unwanted child, and getting pregnant, waiting for EIGHT MONTHS, having birth induced, and then slaughtering the living child OUTSIDE OF THE WOMB

that is MORE then murder, that is Sadism aswell

I would speculate that these women probably have a number of excuses for waiting: their boyfriend broke up with them late in the pregnancy, they lost thier job an no longer knew how to provide for the baby, they found out something might be wrong with the child. There are a number of things that might change in the woman's life to make her second guess keeping the baby. They are equal the same thing to me: unwillingness to be responsible for the child the were willing to participate in conceiving.

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 07:55 PM
On the topic AT HAND, which is a SPECIFIC case of abortion which the State DOES deem as being Illegal...the irony is, the Women must have waited, deliberatly, waited, until the Child COULD survive on its own. Until it was TOO LATE TO HAVE AN ABORTION because the Child wouldnt be killed as in a misscariage...but the child would simply be born. A misscarige is a natural abortion.


the women who knowingly allowed an illegal procedure (aka murder) to be done on them should be held just as liable as someone that hires a hitman. they are no better. they paid someone to murder their own baby.

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 07:56 PM
I would speculate that these women probably have a number of excuses for waiting: their boyfriend broke up with them late in the pregnancy, they lost thier job an no longer knew how to provide for the baby, they found out something might be wrong with the child. There are a number of things that might change in the woman's life to make her second guess keeping the baby. They are equal the same thing to me: unwillingness to be responsible for the child the were willing to participate in conceiving.

But...if they dont want the baby, they dont have to have it. They can put it up for adoption.

Thats what I dont get. They cant afford it? Well, give it up for adoption, I doubt that costs much. They dont want it? Well give it to someone who does want it, but cant have children.

I mean...even in the case of rape. you dont need to keep the Baby...give it away...there are always people who want Babies.

Nine months isnt that long...and if you dont like to give birth have a ceasarian..but honnestly...why kill it...I dont understand??

I tell you, if either of my Sisters ever fall pregnant, they will have that child whether they want it or not. If they dont want the child, They can give it away...but I wouldnt allow them to kill it.

There is no need to ever kill an unborn child, when you can always give it up for adoption...if you didnt want it in the first place, giving it away shouldnt be too hard...and if its your fault, you deserve to at least have the baby...if you dont like that 9 months, consider it punishment for doing what you shouldnt have done in the first place

its physically impossible to get pregnant by mistake.

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 07:57 PM
the women who knowingly allowed an illegal procedure (aka murder) to be done on them should be held just as liable as someone that hires a hitman. they are no better. they paid someone to murder their own baby.

of course they should...they broke the law as well as the doctor involved. they are hardly innocent.

Spiritwalker
01-21-2011, 08:18 PM
But...if they dont want the baby, they dont have to have it. They can put it up for adoption.

Agreed


Thats what I dont get. They cant afford it? Well, give it up for adoption, I doubt that costs much. They dont want it? Well give it to someone who does want it, but cant have children..

Giving a baby away costs nothing. the hospital say does.. dealing with your family can cause serious issues as well.


I mean...even in the case of rape. you dont need to keep the Baby...give it away...there are always people who want Babies..

Nine months isnt that long...and if you dont like to give birth have a ceasarian..but honnestly...why kill it...I dont understand??..[/QUOTE]

When you have your sex change operation.. then get raped.. and have a piece of the rapist growing in you.. then you can talk on this part of the subject. Until then.. don't.



I tell you, if either of my Sisters ever fall pregnant, they will have that child whether they want it or not. If they dont want the child, They can give it away...but I wouldnt allow them to kill it...

wow.. arrogant much? When did you control another person so completely..?



There is no need to ever kill an unborn child, when you can always give it up for adoption...if you didnt want it in the first place, giving it away shouldnt be too hard...and if its your fault, you deserve to at least have the baby...if you dont like that 9 months, consider it punishment for doing what you shouldnt have done in the first place..

like being out in public... and being attacked.. yep.. her fault...

like being molested by your father.. yep.. her fault..

Punish the woman, girl... for being attacked or molested...



its physically impossible to get pregnant by mistake.

ermmmm.... no.
Now is it physically impossible to get pregnant without having sex???

.000000001 percent of the time.. yes. (not counting inverto)



Now please do not misunderstand what I am saying.. any abortion other than life saving to the mother outside of the first ... say 6 weeks... I have issues with.. before the first 6 weeks.. I am grey on.. and many women don't even know at that point I have read...

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 08:55 PM
But...if they dont want the baby, they dont have to have it. They can put it up for adoption.

Thats what I dont get. They cant afford it? Well, give it up for adoption, I doubt that costs much. They dont want it? Well give it to someone who does want it, but cant have children.

I mean...even in the case of rape. you dont need to keep the Baby...give it away...there are always people who want Babies.

Nine months isnt that long...and if you dont like to give birth have a ceasarian..but honnestly...why kill it...I dont understand??

I tell you, if either of my Sisters ever fall pregnant, they will have that child whether they want it or not. If they dont want the child, They can give it away...but I wouldnt allow them to kill it.

There is no need to ever kill an unborn child, when you can always give it up for adoption...if you didnt want it in the first place, giving it away shouldnt be too hard...and if its your fault, you deserve to at least have the baby...if you dont like that 9 months, consider it punishment for doing what you shouldnt have done in the first place

its physically impossible to get pregnant by mistake.

Of course we don't understand why or how their thought process could lead them to determine killing thier baby is best. I have to assume the only way anyone could come to this conclusion is 100% selfish. These women only consider how their lives can be least impacted. Unfortunately many of these women are not properly educated on their choices and the long term effect abortions can have both emotional and physical long term effects. Some states have laws that require the immediate physical risk by shared with the patient, but none require the patient be informed of the emotional effects. Like how many of them will one day live with great regret and that women who have abortions are most more likely to commit suicide. Or even some physical risk, like the increase risk of breast cancer, do not have to be discolsed.

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 09:06 PM
Agreed



Giving a baby away costs nothing. the hospital say does.. dealing with your family can cause serious issues as well. in some states adoptive parents can pay for expenses for the bio mom. i've seen adoptive parents pay huge debts of a bio mom under the legal protection that doing so reduce the stress on the bio mom and therefore increased the health of the baby.



Nine months isnt that long...and if you dont like to give birth have a ceasarian..but honnestly...why kill it...I dont understand??..

When you have your sex change operation.. then get raped.. and have a piece of the rapist growing in you.. then you can talk on this part of the subject. Until then.. don't.
i know a girl that was raped by her father, got pregnant, and sits cheering at the ball games of that now 10 year old child just like us moms that willingly conceived our children. i cannot fully understand the toll this would take but it doesn't decrease the value God has placed on that baby's life. AND less only 1-2% of abortions done since 2001 (according to a 2008 study) are the result of rape or as the result of a medical condition that could cause harm to the mother or result in the child being disabled. found this out doing research for a psy class.




wow.. arrogant much? When did you control another person so completely..?
is it any more arrogant for these women to think they should control life above the will of God?


like being out in public... and being attacked.. yep.. her fault...

like being molested by your father.. yep.. her fault..

Punish the woman, girl... for being attacked or molested...



ermmmm.... no.
Now is it physically impossible to get pregnant without having sex???

.000000001 percent of the time.. yes. (not counting inverto)
I laugh only because my friend's 3rd and 4th came from the call to pull out. wise idea right?



Now please do not misunderstand what I am saying.. any abortion other than life saving to the mother outside of the first ... say 6 weeks... I have issues with.. before the first 6 weeks.. I am grey on.. and many women don't even know at that point I have read...[/QUOTE]

just fyi tim tebow's mom was told to abort him or she and her baby would die.

flo
01-21-2011, 09:12 PM
Spiritwalker #31

I don't understand why you are nitpicking everything Dave says. He's just giving his heart-felt opinion. You are so sarcastic, can't you just speak to him as you would in person?

BamaGrits84
01-21-2011, 09:22 PM
Spiritwalker #31

I don't understand why you are nitpicking everything Dave says. He's just giving his heart-felt opinion. You are so sarcastic, can't you just speak to him as you would in person?

I agree. Not trying to gang up on spiritwalker, but i had someone come across as talking down to me on here so i like seeings folks stick up for each other. we all many not agree on everything but we can be respectful of each other. we can discuss our contrasting views without belittling each others opinions.

flo
01-21-2011, 09:25 PM
Well-said, Bama.

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 09:35 PM
1)dealing with your family can cause serious issues as well.

2) When you have your sex change operation.. then get raped.. and have a piece of the rapist growing in you.. then you can talk on this part of the subject. Until then.. don't.

3) wow.. arrogant much? When did you control another person so completely..?



4) like being out in public... and being attacked.. yep.. her fault...

like being molested by your father.. yep.. her fault..

Punish the woman, girl... for being attacked or molested...



5) ermmmm.... no.
Now is it physically impossible to get pregnant without having sex???

.000000001 percent of the time.. yes. (not counting inverto)



Now please do not misunderstand what I am saying.. any abortion other than life saving to the mother outside of the first ... say 6 weeks... I have issues with.. before the first 6 weeks.. I am grey on.. and many women don't even know at that point I have read...

1) everyone has "issues" dealing with family. Any pregnant woman can thank her lucky stars that a pregnancy lasts only 9 months. Other issues that cause family strife never go away, and cant be answered as easily as giving birth or an abortion.

You try suffering from same sexed attraction and being the only son of a priest.

2) Excuse me?? I am never going to have a sex change opporation, and hopefully shall never get raped neither. I can speak about what I like. For a start, half of what grows inside the woman is always her...secondly, dont blame the baby for the actions of the Father. Punish the Father...but dont punish the baby, Baby is innocent even if he does have half the genetic code of a rapist. Just because YOU are violated does not mean you can violate someone else. In the same way that you never asked to be raped...well neither did the baby asked to be created, and just like noone deserves to be raped...well neither does the kid deserve to die.

3) let me try to explain in a way you'll understand. What they do reflects on me. They represent the Family, They represent me. I am the heir, the only one left with the physiological ability to continue our Family Name. Likewise, what is said or done to them reflect on me, If someone hurts them, then I will consider that an attack on myself and I shall act accordingly. In the past I have done.

I shall not have one of my Sisters committ murder. Those women mean everything to me. They are my family. I will stop them from killing a baby if they end up with one in an accident.

They know my views on this area :)

4) punish the woman if she slept with someone outside of marriage and something went wrong and she ended up with Child. Absolutely. Consider the child a blessing from GOD in the case of Rape. make something good come out of something Evil. (though in the case of rape I would give the woman the option of abortion, just strongly advise against it)

5) you cant have sex by accident either :rolleyes: Babies do not simply appear in wombs. The Stalk does not deliver dear spiritwalker :laugh:

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 09:40 PM
Spiritwalker #31

I don't understand why you are nitpicking everything Dave says. He's just giving his heart-felt opinion. You are so sarcastic, can't you just speak to him as you would in person?

Blesssssssssssssssssss :D

Tyburn
01-21-2011, 09:42 PM
I agree. Not trying to gang up on spiritwalker, but i had someone come across as talking down to me on here so i like seeings folks stick up for each other. we all many not agree on everything but we can be respectful of each other. we can discuss our contrasting views without belittling each others opinions.

Blesssssssssssssss you to :D

TENNESSEAN
01-21-2011, 10:53 PM
I agree. Not trying to gang up on spiritwalker, but i had someone come across as talking down to me on here so i like seeings folks stick up for each other. we all many not agree on everything but we can be respectful of each other. we can discuss our contrasting views without belittling each others opinions.

some times sw needs ganging up on. him and tyburn are in a little spat and this is just sw being an
http://football-talk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/donkey.jpg

Awretchsaved
01-21-2011, 11:32 PM
I don't think that a lethal injection or a life time in jail suffices for what this monster has done. How about we put him in the octagon with Brock Lesnar or Matt Hughes? Oh, yeah, there is no tapping out.

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 04:07 AM
Spiritwalker #31

I don't understand why you are nitpicking everything Dave says. He's just giving his heart-felt opinion. You are so sarcastic, can't you just speak to him as you would in person?


Because he seems to think that he should be able to control what his sisters do.. piss poor attitude


You can also have sex by rape... I don't feel that any man has the right to judge what a women does with her body... that's just me..

And because "God" say "x" or "y".. doesn't mean that she has to share the same belief structure.

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 04:10 AM
Of course we don't understand why or how their thought process could lead them to determine killing thier baby is best. I have to assume the only way anyone could come to this conclusion is 100% selfish.

I understand.. but being as I am not a woman.. I don't know that I would agree with that.

These women only consider how their lives can be least impacted.

Not true.. not true at all.

Unfortunately many of these women are not properly educated on their choices and the long term effect abortions can have both emotional and physical long term effects.

Agreed.

Some states have laws that require the immediate physical risk by shared with the patient, but none require the patient be informed of the emotional effects. Like how many of them will one day live with great regret and that women who have abortions are most more likely to commit suicide. Or even some physical risk, like the increase risk of breast cancer, do not have to be discolsed.


Agreed.

Tyburn
01-22-2011, 12:22 PM
:laugh::laugh: that donkey picture made me laugh :laugh::laugh:

:ashamed:

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 02:37 PM
some times sw needs ganging up on. him and tyburn are in a little spat and this is just sw being an


hmmmm.... interesting.

NateR
01-22-2011, 02:50 PM
Because he seems to think that he should be able to control what his sisters do.. piss poor attitude


You can also have sex by rape... I don't feel that any man has the right to judge what a women does with her body... that's just me..

And because "God" say "x" or "y".. doesn't mean that she has to share the same belief structure.

But it's not "her body." The baby has a unique DNA structure and has its own blood circulation that is completely separate from the mother. The baby is related to her, but it is not her property to do with as she pleases. It is a unique human being with EQUAL rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that all of us have been given by GOD.

Now you might claim that since the woman's womb is her property, then she should have a right to determine if the baby is allowed to use it or not. Well, that's nonsense. That's like saying that a father has a right to kill his child as long as he does it inside of a house that he has full ownership of.

Besides, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that states that our bodies are our personal property to do with as we please. Our bodies are gifts from GOD, so they need to be treated in a way that honors GOD.

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 03:08 PM
Spiritwalker #31

I don't understand why you are nitpicking everything Dave says. He's just giving his heart-felt opinion. You are so sarcastic, can't you just speak to him as you would in person?

When I try discussing something with Dave as a normal person.. it becomes "I'm right..and you don't understand".. every time.

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 03:12 PM
So I was re-reading this thread.. trying to determine when it became about religion.. and I saw this..

3) let me try to explain in a way you'll understand. What they do reflects on me. They represent the Family, They represent me. I am the heir, the only one left with the physiological ability to continue our Family Name. Likewise, what is said or done to them reflect on me, If someone hurts them, then I will consider that an attack on myself and I shall act accordingly. In the past I have done.

I shall not have one of my Sisters committ murder. Those women mean everything to me. They are my family. I will stop them from killing a baby if they end up with one in an accident.

So how does your actions.. thoughts and tendencies reflect on them? Don't your actions reflect on them?

Your the "heir".. kinda like your own royal family...?

And just curious.. how do you stop one of them?

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 03:13 PM
But it's not "her body." The baby has a unique DNA structure and has its own blood circulation that is completely separate from the mother. The baby is related to her, but it is not her property to do with as she pleases. It is a unique human being with EQUAL rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that all of us have been given by GOD.

Agreed in Red. But not everyone has the same belief structure.

Now you might claim that since the woman's womb is her property, then she should have a right to determine if the baby is allowed to use it or not. Well, that's nonsense. That's like saying that a father has a right to kill his child as long as he does it inside of a house that he has full ownership of.

Bit of a stretch.. And I have never said I was "in favor" of abortion..

Besides, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that states that our bodies are our personal property to do with as we please. Our bodies are gifts from GOD, so they need to be treated in a way that honors GOD.

And "if" there is no God.. Or if a persons belief structure does not include God... then where is the standard being drawn?

NateR
01-22-2011, 03:52 PM
Agreed in Red. But not everyone has the same belief structure.



Bit of a stretch.. And I have never said I was "in favor" of abortion..



And "if" there is no God.. Or if a persons belief structure does not include God... then where is the standard being drawn?

Without GOD, then there is no basis for morality or "right and wrong." Without GOD, human life has no value whatsoever and there is no such thing as liberty or freedom. Without GOD, life is meaningless, purposeless and hopeless.

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 04:03 PM
Without GOD, then there is no basis for morality or "right and wrong." Without GOD, human life has no value whatsoever and there is no such thing as liberty or freedom. Without GOD, life is meaningless, purposeless and hopeless.

Except that which people place open it.

bradwright
01-22-2011, 04:20 PM
Without GOD, then there is no basis for morality or "right and wrong." Without GOD, human life has no value whatsoever and there is no such thing as liberty or freedom. Without GOD, life is meaningless, purposeless and hopeless.

your first point is not true at all...i know lots of atheists that know the difference between right and wrong better then a lot of Christians.

your second point is just...silly.

as for the third point....maybe it is to all the lazy people in the world...but the ones that get their ass's off the couch and get out there to live life and do what they can for people in need would disagree with you Nate.
but the selfish people would agree with you every time.

NateR
01-22-2011, 06:14 PM
Except that which people place open it.

Saying that the value of human life is a matter of human opinion is basically saying that human life has no value.

your first point is not true at all...i know lots of atheists that know the difference between right and wrong better then a lot of Christians.

your second point is just...silly.

as for the third point....maybe it is to all the lazy people in the world...but the ones that get their ass's off the couch and get out there to live life and do what they can for people in need would disagree with you Nate.
but the selfish people would agree with you every time.


I would disagree with you 100%. Without GOD, there is no good on this earth. That's clearly stated in the Bible and the reality of the world that we live in proves it.

There is no such thing as a good person. Period. All human beings are corrupt, selfish and evil. Those who claim to be good and to be able to find meaning and purpose in life without GOD are either fools or liars.

bradwright
01-22-2011, 06:28 PM
Saying that the value of human life is a matter of human opinion is basically saying that human life has no value.




I would disagree with you 100%. Without GOD, there is no good on this earth. That's clearly stated in the Bible and the reality of the world that we live in proves it.

There is no such thing as a good person. Period. All human beings are corrupt, selfish and evil. Those who claim to be good and to be able to find meaning and purpose in life without GOD are either fools or liars.

in your opinion that is...i have seen otherwise....but then again im willing to see.

flo
01-22-2011, 06:41 PM
But it's not "her body." The baby has a unique DNA structure and has its own blood circulation that is completely separate from the mother. The baby is related to her, but it is not her property to do with as she pleases. It is a unique human being with EQUAL rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that all of us have been given by GOD.



Excellent points, Nate.

You know, this story won't get a lot of mainstream coverage because, although the left SCREAMS about their right to abort, they sure as heck don't want to hear about actual abortions. It might offend their delicate senses.

Wouldn't it be nice if they cared one whit about the unborn child whose very being cries out for their protection?

flo
01-22-2011, 06:44 PM
I think there are a lot of good people. Yes, we're all flawed but nonetheless...

NateR
01-22-2011, 07:03 PM
in your opinion that is...i have seen otherwise....but then again im willing to see.

Your last comment only indicates a closed mind on your part. You assume that anyone who has even considered your views on humanity will agree with you. If they don't, then there is something wrong with them. Either they are too "blind" to the "truth" to agree with you or too stupid to comprehend it. Your worldview seems to be incapable of grasping the possibility that someone could have been raised to believe like you do, but ultimately reject your humanist philosophy as a lie.

NateR
01-22-2011, 07:15 PM
I think there are a lot of good people. Yes, we're all flawed but nonetheless...

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said, "No one is good but One, that is GOD."

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, "There is none righteous, no, not one."

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD.

Psalm 53:3 - Every one of them has turned aside; they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.

No matter what you WANT to believe, there is no one good but GOD. "Good people" don't exist. If they did, then Jesus would be a fraud and the Bible would be a lie. It's that simple.

Either you believe that there are good people in this world or you believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, you can't believe in both. It's intellectually impossible.

bradwright
01-22-2011, 07:46 PM
Your last comment only indicates a closed mind on your part. You assume that anyone who has even considered your views on humanity will agree with you. If they don't, then there is something wrong with them. Either they are too "blind" to the "truth" to agree with you or too stupid to comprehend it. Your worldview seems to be incapable of grasping the possibility that someone could have been raised to believe like you do, but ultimately reject your humanist philosophy as a lie.

a close mind on my part ?...thats kinda funny coming from you Nate.

not everything is quite as cut and dried as you try and make it out to be.

how could what i see to be true possibly be a lie ?

there are lots of very bad people in the world but there are just as many very good people as well and to say everyone is evil doesn't say much for the way you see your friends and family let alone the rest of the earths population.

Chris F
01-22-2011, 09:04 PM
This is trully sad. But until people make their elected officials be accountable this crap will continue. The unborn have just as much rights as the mothers. We are all guaranteed the right to life and cannot loose it w/0 due process. What a shame

Spiritwalker
01-22-2011, 11:16 PM
Saying that the value of human life is a matter of human opinion is basically saying that human life has no value.

That is not what I am saying.

I am saying that many people that do not believe in God value life, have morals and many other things that those of faith have.


I would disagree with you 100%. Without GOD, there is no good on this earth. That's clearly stated in the Bible and the reality of the world that we live in proves it.

There are many things in the Bible.. and there are many books that are not part of the Bible..

Do you think that the Dalai Lama is not good? Do you think that a die hard atheist.. that saves the life of a woman, by stopping on the side of the road, is not good? What about the Muslim soldier that took a bullet for his fellow soldier?


There is no such thing as a good person. Period. All human beings are corrupt, selfish and evil. Those who claim to be good and to be able to find meaning and purpose in life without GOD are either fools or liars.

Wow.. I just don't know what to say.. I understand why you would think that.. but to actually say it.. that takes "back bone"..

I do completely disagree with that... I know of.. and have known.. several people that are neither..fools or liars...

I am rather disappointed.. not surprised.. but disappointed.

Those that find Christ... before they were saved, cleansed...born again... were evil?

NateR
01-23-2011, 01:24 AM
a close mind on my part ?...thats kinda funny coming from you Nate.

not everything is quite as cut and dried as you try and make it out to be.

how could what i see to be true possibly be a lie ?

there are lots of very bad people in the world but there are just as many very good people as well and to say everyone is evil doesn't say much for the way you see your friends and family let alone the rest of the earths population.

In Matthew 12:30, Jesus says, "He who it not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."

The Creator of the Universe teaches us that we either follow Christ or we follow Satan, there are no other options and there is no fence-sitting. That's pretty cut and dry to me.

We only see shades of grey because of the sin within our hearts.

That is not what I am saying.

I am saying that many people that do not believe in God value life, have morals and many other things that those of faith have.




There are many things in the Bible.. and there are many books that are not part of the Bible..

Do you think that the Dalai Lama is not good? Do you think that a die hard atheist.. that saves the life of a woman, by stopping on the side of the road, is not good? What about the Muslim soldier that took a bullet for his fellow soldier?




Wow.. I just don't know what to say.. I understand why you would think that.. but to actually say it.. that takes "back bone"..

I do completely disagree with that... I know of.. and have known.. several people that are neither..fools or liars...

I am rather disappointed.. not surprised.. but disappointed.

Those that find Christ... before they were saved, cleansed...born again... were evil?

When the Bible says "there is no one who does good" then it means that there is no one who does good. When Jesus said, "no one is good but GOD," then it means no one is good but GOD. It's pretty straightforward.

Some people might do things that other people view as "good" but it doesn't change the fact that every person has a corrupt heart:

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

Spiritwalker
01-23-2011, 03:35 AM
When the Bible says "there is no one who does good" then it means that there is no one who does good. When Jesus said, "no one is good but GOD," then it means no one is good but GOD. It's pretty straightforward.

Some people might do things that other people view as "good" but it doesn't change the fact that every person has a corrupt heart:



Glad I am free to disagree..

Some could say that the Bible is a "contradiction... partly truth.. partly fiction"

I don't know that that is exactly correct.. but I do know what I feel... that God has given us many things.. and some of those lead us to question..

I also know that since the interpretations of the Bible.... is the cause of many of the conflicts in the world.

NateR
01-23-2011, 08:51 PM
Glad I am free to disagree..

Some could say that the Bible is a "contradiction... partly truth.. partly fiction"

I don't know that that is exactly correct.. but I do know what I feel... that God has given us many things.. and some of those lead us to question..

I also know that since the interpretations of the Bible.... is the cause of many of the conflicts in the world.

If you are viewing humanity from a human perspective, then I can understand why you feel the way you do. And I don't blame you for thinking that way at all.

However, the Bible often gives us a view of humanity from GOD's perspective and it's not nearly as forgiving of a picture as we'd like to think it is.

As for the Bible being the cause of conflicts in the world, that's EXACTLY what it's intended to do. In Matthew 10:34-36, Jesus says:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.'"

Tyburn
01-23-2011, 09:03 PM
When I try discussing something with Dave as a normal person.. it becomes "I'm right..and you don't understand".. every time.

You have never tried "discussing" anything with me. Thats half the problem.

Tyburn
01-23-2011, 09:12 PM
1) So how does your actions.. thoughts and tendencies reflect on them? Don't your actions reflect on them?

2) Your the "heir".. kinda like your own royal family...?

3) And just curious.. how do you stop one of them?

1) absolutely. They have no quarms telling me the way things should be also. We all keep each other in line. :laugh:

2) More like a Mafia actually. The side of our family that resides in Bristol is FAR worse then us. Jokingly (one hopes) called "The Bristol Mafia" by friends of the family. :laugh:

3) I am gifted in the art of persaution :laugh: ...and I would not be the only voice :) ...do you think my parents would think well of one of their daughters aborting a child :huh: Before you question whether my sisters would try and pretend they never got pregnant in the first place let me explain, that although we live separately one of my sister (the one not due to be married) my Nan, Myself, and my parents, all live within a half mile square. No secrets are kept well for long :ninja:

Tyburn
01-23-2011, 09:19 PM
There is no such thing as a good person. Period. All human beings are corrupt, selfish and evil. Those who claim to be good and to be able to find meaning and purpose in life without GOD are either fools or liars.

When GOD says "good" he means "holy" and "perfect" which is what he requires.

Are their good people on earth...absolutely...but that is not what GOD requires...GOD requires perfection, sinlessness...and their is none of that. So its not that there is an absence of good people...it is that good people are not good enough for GOD. GOD requires Perfection. "Be Holy, for I Am Holy"

There are many athiestic philanthropists...none of them saved despite their good works. That is a better way of explaining it to people I feel...why? because its more accurate...and rather then denying the fact Human Beings are capable of good works, which they evidently are...it explains, by expounding what GOD meant, not just what he said..to avoid any come back. :)

Tyburn
01-23-2011, 09:22 PM
Romans 3:10 - As it is written, "There is none righteous, no, not one."

Either you believe that there are good people in this world or you believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, you can't believe in both. It's intellectually impossible.
Not if you understand what GOD means by the word "GOOD" from his perspective. This word should have given you a clue. Righteous DOES NOT MEAN GOOD, it means "in right standing with GOD" the two are VERY different.

Neezar
01-23-2011, 11:09 PM
I think everyone that would like a vote on legalizing abortion should have to watch one, even an early term one. Then they get a vote.

flo
01-23-2011, 11:28 PM
I think everyone that would like a vote on legalizing abortion should have to watch one, even an early term one. Then they get a vote.


I've always thought something similar, Denise; that abortions should be televised. Then let's see how long they are legal...

TexasRN
01-23-2011, 11:36 PM
I've always thought something similar, Denise; that abortions should be televised. Then let's see how long they are legal...


The smells and sounds of it are completely gruesome. I have never been present at an abortion but I have been involved in D&C procedures after a miscarriage and have delivered stillborn fetus' under 20 weeks of age. :cry:


~Amy

Tyburn
01-23-2011, 11:41 PM
The smells and sounds of it are completely gruesome. I have never been present at an abortion but I have been involved in D&C procedures after a miscarriage and have delivered stillborn fetus' under 20 weeks of age. :cry:


~Amy

:cry: oh no :cry:

Tyburn
01-23-2011, 11:44 PM
Can I ask a silly question?

Sooo...you know I raise and breed Zebra Finches? Well during the winter months Bonnie lays eggs at random intervals which are unfertilized...BUT I have also seen her and Pettis mate...I cant tell which eggs are alive and which eggs are empty, and I CAN NOT afford to let the live eggs hatch.

Do I committ murder by...erm...removing the eggs...if they are alive :unsure-1::huh:

Fearing just that, for a long time I kept them all in a little jar...but the eggs themselves started to decay...now I...well...I'm not sure I should say this...but...I throw the eggs out of the window...

TexasRN
01-23-2011, 11:47 PM
:cry: oh no :cry:

Yeah, the doctors don't usually come in to do those deliveries themselves. So as a labor and delivery nurse, I was called a few times to the antepartum unit to deliver the tiny ones who had already passed away. We keep tiny, tiny little outfits that we can dress the baby in to take pictures for the family to have as a keepsake. We have a group who knits or sews those outfits and blankets so that the baby has some dignity at death. If the baby already has hair, we snip a little bit of it for the family to keep. It's a life altering position to be in as the caregiver. I cried with the family every single time. :cry:


~Amy

Tyburn
01-23-2011, 11:50 PM
Yeah, the doctors don't usually come in to do those deliveries themselves. So as a labor and delivery nurse, I was called a few times to the antepartum unit to deliver the tiny ones who had already passed away. We keep tiny, tiny little outfits that we can dress the baby in to take pictures for the family to have as a keepsake. We have a group who knits or sews those outfits and blankets so that the baby has some dignity at death. If the baby already has hair, we snip a little bit of it for the family to keep. It's a life altering position to be in as the caregiver. I cried with the family every single time. :cry:


~Amy

that must be one of the worst things that can ever possibily happen to a Mother, misscarriage or stillborn children :sad:

TexasRN
01-23-2011, 11:51 PM
Can I ask a silly question?

Sooo...you know I raise and breed Zebra Finches? Well during the winter months Bonnie lays eggs at random intervals which are unfertilized...BUT I have also seen her and Pettis mate...I cant tell which eggs are alive and which eggs are empty, and I CAN NOT afford to let the live eggs hatch.

Do I committ murder by...erm...removing the eggs...if they are alive :unsure-1::huh:

Fearing just that, for a long time I kept them all in a little jar...but the eggs themselves started to decay...now I...well...I'm not sure I should say this...but...I throw the eggs out of the window...


I dunno, Dave. My dad was a science teacher for many years. Every year he would buy chicken eggs to hatch in his classroom. We used to candle them to see if there was a baby chick in them or not and we'd throw the bad ones away. How early do you take the eggs from Bonnie? Are they far enough along to candle them?


~Amy

NateR
01-23-2011, 11:52 PM
When GOD says "good" he means "holy" and "perfect" which is what he requires.

Are their good people on earth...absolutely...but that is not what GOD requires...GOD requires perfection, sinlessness...and their is none of that. So its not that there is an absence of good people...it is that good people are not good enough for GOD. GOD requires Perfection. "Be Holy, for I Am Holy"

There are many athiestic philanthropists...none of them saved despite their good works. That is a better way of explaining it to people I feel...why? because its more accurate...and rather then denying the fact Human Beings are capable of good works, which they evidently are...it explains, by expounding what GOD meant, not just what he said..to avoid any come back. :)

Being capable of good works and being good are two different things.

Besides, since GOD's standard for "good" is the only thing that determines whether we spend eternity in Heaven or in Hell, then isn't that the only standard that's really important?

By telling non-believers that they are capable of being "good people" without GOD is completely contrary and subversive to the message of the Gospel. In other words, you are no longer a witness for Christ, you have become a witness for Satan.

If GOD sees the world in terms of black and white then, if we know what's good for us, we need to start seeing the world in terms of black and white as well.

NateR
01-23-2011, 11:55 PM
Can I ask a silly question?

Sooo...you know I raise and breed Zebra Finches? Well during the winter months Bonnie lays eggs at random intervals which are unfertilized...BUT I have also seen her and Pettis mate...I cant tell which eggs are alive and which eggs are empty, and I CAN NOT afford to let the live eggs hatch.

Do I committ murder by...erm...removing the eggs...if they are alive :unsure-1::huh:

Fearing just that, for a long time I kept them all in a little jar...but the eggs themselves started to decay...now I...well...I'm not sure I should say this...but...I throw the eggs out of the window...

To be honest, they are just birds. If you are not capable of taking care of new hatchlings, then it's better to euthanize them.

Animals are not on the same level as humans, thus the same rules concerning murder don't apply.

Tyburn
01-24-2011, 12:11 AM
I dunno, Dave. My dad was a science teacher for many years. Every year he would buy chicken eggs to hatch in his classroom. We used to candle them to see if there was a baby chick in them or not and we'd throw the bad ones away. How early do you take the eggs from Bonnie? Are they far enough along to candle them?


~Amy

No...I take them the moment I see them. within mere hours of being laid. In theory nothing is in the egg until she incubates...thats what allows the fertilized eggs to mature.

But a fertilized egg means that sperm and egg have joined, even if they have only joined and wait for the application of heat...in theory that joining makes them alive (as opposed to being single celled) :unsure-1:

She doesnt seem to mind, she doesnt get distressed, because she has not incubated...but I know when she is ready to lay...she must know, because without fail it is the only time she tucks into her cuttlefish bone...she does this because its rich in calcium, and calcium is what the egg shell of her eggs is made out of, if she doesnt get enough of it, thats when the eggs are soft coz the shell doesnt form, and that causes eggbinding (when eggs get stuck inside the bird) and that causes death usually

Tyburn
01-24-2011, 12:21 AM
To be honest, they are just birds. If you are not capable of taking care of new hatchlings, then it's better to euthanize them.

Animals are not on the same level as humans, thus the same rules concerning murder don't apply.

Just because they are not important does not mean that they should be harmed.

GOD is capable of creating covernants with animals, because it says so in Genesis. Jesus also mentions that Birds are important, and recognised by GOD, and uses this to point out how much more important Humans are.

The moment you use the argument above, it can be extended to justify animal cruelty...after all, they are not made in the image of GOD, the rules do not apply...and yet when GOD required an animal sacrifice...you will note the animal had to be in perfect condition...you cant sacrifice a shyte animal, they had to be "without blemish" what would it matter, if GOD valued all animals as lesser.

Also...they will have intrinsic value too..not because they are made in his image, but of who made them.

Yes, Man was put to have dominion over the earth and all life on it, but that dominion was to protect, not distroy....we are talking about a group of cells in a woman, and we are saying that is life, and as valid as if it were a fully functioning human being....but a group of cells in ANY EGG OR MOTHER is alive...and as you wouldnt for no good reason kill Jens the budgie...why would I kill something that would eventually turn into a bird?

Its a real quandary for me actually...mostly because I can see even now out of the corner of my eye, Dane...the result of one of those eggs that actually hatched...the thought of essentially killing something so wonderful...make me a tad guilty...I didnt speak of it before because I thought you would all think I was stupid or foolish...but...it bothers me to be honnest...not a lot...but certainly a little.

TexasRN
01-24-2011, 12:24 AM
No...I take them the moment I see them. within mere hours of being laid. In theory nothing is in the egg until she incubates...thats what allows the fertilized eggs to mature.

But a fertilized egg means that sperm and egg have joined, even if they have only joined and wait for the application of heat...in theory that joining makes them alive (as opposed to being single celled) :unsure-1:

She doesnt seem to mind, she doesnt get distressed, because she has not incubated...but I know when she is ready to lay...she must know, because without fail it is the only time she tucks into her cuttlefish bone...she does this because its rich in calcium, and calcium is what the egg shell of her eggs is made out of, if she doesnt get enough of it, thats when the eggs are soft coz the shell doesnt form, and that causes eggbinding (when eggs get stuck inside the bird) and that causes death usually

You aren't murdering them. I've had to put animals down for their own good or because they were overpopulating an area. I'm with Nate on this one. Animals are not the same as humans. (Don't tell my dog I said that. He's sensitive.....:wink:)


~Amy

Tyburn
01-24-2011, 12:28 AM
By telling non-believers that they are capable of being "good people" without GOD is completely contrary and subversive to the message of the Gospel. In other words, you are no longer a witness for Christ, you have become a witness for Satan.


Not true. Non Believers need to know that being good is as useless as being bad in terms of salvation. They need to know that works are mute and pointless weather good or bad in terms of salvation.

Its not subversive, its the truth. GOD is not interested in Good works, nor is he interested in Good people. He is interested in perfect people, and perfect works...any non believer is capable of admitting they are not perfect!

That is what GOD wishes them to know. He is Holy, They are not, if they want eternal life, they need his help.

This helps them see that as their works, and their outlook is completely irrelivent to GOD, that their lives, whether good or bad, hard or easy, or whatever, is completelt meaningless to their eternal future.

Rather then putting someone down and crying how evil they are, which is only going to make them say "but I do good works" or "but I am a good person" you say...GOD doesnt care for good works or good people unless you are perfect

ARE you perfect... :huh: They aint gonna say yes Nathan :laugh:

Tyburn
01-24-2011, 12:31 AM
You aren't murdering them. I've had to put animals down for their own good or because they were overpopulating an area. I'm with Nate on this one. Animals are not the same as humans. (Don't tell my dog I said that. He's sensitive.....:wink:)


~Amy

:laugh: oh good...I feel better now you've said that....they really are only two little cells :ashamed:

:unsure-1: no it doesnt help...they are still more then one bloody cell :laugh:

DonnaMaria
01-24-2011, 01:30 AM
that must be one of the worst things that can ever possibily happen to a Mother, misscarriage or stillborn children :sad:

It is.

almost 12 years later I still cry. It's like the wound never heals.

NateR
01-24-2011, 01:37 AM
Not true. Non Believers need to know that being good is as useless as being bad in terms of salvation. They need to know that works are mute and pointless weather good or bad in terms of salvation.

Its not subversive, its the truth. GOD is not interested in Good works, nor is he interested in Good people. He is interested in perfect people, and perfect works...any non believer is capable of admitting they are not perfect!

That is what GOD wishes them to know. He is Holy, They are not, if they want eternal life, they need his help.

This helps them see that as their works, and their outlook is completely irrelivent to GOD, that their lives, whether good or bad, hard or easy, or whatever, is completelt meaningless to their eternal future.

Rather then putting someone down and crying how evil they are, which is only going to make them say "but I do good works" or "but I am a good person" you say...GOD doesnt care for good works or good people unless you are perfect

ARE you perfect... :huh: They aint gonna say yes Nathan :laugh:

I agree, we are just looking at the problem from two different perspectives. I'm saying that no person can ever meet GOD's standard for good. And you're saying that people can be good by human standards, just never good enough for GOD. It's essentially the same thing, just phrased in different ways.

NateR
01-24-2011, 01:41 AM
Just because they are not important does not mean that they should be harmed.

GOD is capable of creating covernants with animals, because it says so in Genesis. Jesus also mentions that Birds are important, and recognised by GOD, and uses this to point out how much more important Humans are.

The moment you use the argument above, it can be extended to justify animal cruelty...after all, they are not made in the image of GOD, the rules do not apply...and yet when GOD required an animal sacrifice...you will note the animal had to be in perfect condition...you cant sacrifice a shyte animal, they had to be "without blemish" what would it matter, if GOD valued all animals as lesser.

Also...they will have intrinsic value too..not because they are made in his image, but of who made them.

Yes, Man was put to have dominion over the earth and all life on it, but that dominion was to protect, not distroy....we are talking about a group of cells in a woman, and we are saying that is life, and as valid as if it were a fully functioning human being....but a group of cells in ANY EGG OR MOTHER is alive...and as you wouldnt for no good reason kill Jens the budgie...why would I kill something that would eventually turn into a bird?

Its a real quandary for me actually...mostly because I can see even now out of the corner of my eye, Dane...the result of one of those eggs that actually hatched...the thought of essentially killing something so wonderful...make me a tad guilty...I didnt speak of it before because I thought you would all think I was stupid or foolish...but...it bothers me to be honnest...not a lot...but certainly a little.

No, it's not a justification for animal cruelty at all. People who take delight in hurting or torturing animals to death are extremely mentally unstable. In fact, just about EVERY serial killer and child abuser started their abuse on animals in some form. So, that's not saying that everyone who mistreats animals is going to become a serial killer, however, it's a very good indication of a seriously disturbed and dangerous mind.

Tyburn
01-24-2011, 01:49 AM
I agree, we are just looking at the problem from two different perspectives. I'm saying that no person can ever meet GOD's standard for good. And you're saying that people can be good by human standards, just never good enough for GOD. It's essentially the same thing, just phrased in different ways.

:happydancing: WE AGGREE!! :happydancing:

Tyburn
01-24-2011, 01:51 AM
No, it's not a justification for animal cruelty at all. People who take delight in hurting or torturing animals to death are extremely mentally unstable. In fact, just about EVERY serial killer and child abuser started their abuse on animals in some form. So, that's not saying that everyone who mistreats animals is going to become a serial killer, however, it's a very good indication of a seriously disturbed and dangerous mind.

I dont know how anyone could hurt a domestic animal :unsure-1: I understand hunting, because that is a form of population control, I understand self defence against wild or dangerously threatening animals

but...hurting, or starving, or mal treating animals...thats really bad in my book :sad:

Tyburn
01-24-2011, 01:52 AM
It is.

almost 12 years later I still cry. It's like the wound never heals.

:cry: Sorry :cry:

DonnaMaria
01-24-2011, 02:27 AM
:cry: Sorry :cry:

aw dave, it's okay. it still hurts but i understand that there was a reason for losing my baby boy and that i will see him and understand the reason for losing him when i pass on. and i also understand that God really wanted me to have my youngest girl, because she was born 18 months after my son passed. his life was short but it had a specific purpose. and i think he accomplished more in his short time on this earth than many people accomplish in years. he helped me grow spiritually and helped me develop empathy. i think that was his purpose all along. his purpose for being.

i also think that his passing helped make me a pro life supporter. i think he was sent to make me understand that ALL life has meaning and purpose. i don't think i fully understood that until he passed.

flo
01-24-2011, 04:48 AM
{{DonnaMaria}}

Miss Foxy
01-24-2011, 08:20 PM
Yeah, the doctors don't usually come in to do those deliveries themselves. So as a labor and delivery nurse, I was called a few times to the antepartum unit to deliver the tiny ones who had already passed away. We keep tiny, tiny little outfits that we can dress the baby in to take pictures for the family to have as a keepsake. We have a group who knits or sews those outfits and blankets so that the baby has some dignity at death. If the baby already has hair, we snip a little bit of it for the family to keep. It's a life altering position to be in as the caregiver. I cried with the family every single time. :cry:


~Amy

The nurses took good care of my sister in law..Very sensitive to her needs and they helped my family prepare the baby for her blessing from the priest..Most nurses act as angels during moments like this..

Spiritwalker
01-25-2011, 12:14 PM
(CNN) -- The brother of a woman who prosecutors say died during complications from an abortion at a Pennsylvania medical clinic hopes the doctor who performed allegedly illegal procedures will never practice again.

"We want justice, this doctor has to be out of that clinic or he should not be treating anybody," Damber Ghalley told CNN Monday, referring to his sister, 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar. "And the things that happen to my sister, I don't want to happen to anybody in the future."

Dr. Kermit Gosnell is charged with seven first-degree murder charges related to the deaths of seven viable babies, and one third-degree murder in the death of Mongar. He is being held without bail.

Mongar died November 20, 2009, after overdosing on anesthetics prescribed by the doctor, Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams said. Williams called the facility "a house of horrors" that performed "botched and illegal abortions" and that was full of containers of fetuses' body parts.

Ghalley agreed, telling CNN "the clinic was so dirty, filthy with blood stains and a dirty floor, everywhere dirty, I cannot describe how dirty it was."

Kermit Gosnell thought he was doing good Mongar's family filed a lawsuit last week against Gosnell's practice seeking damages, the family's attorney, Bernard Smalley, said.

"It's unforgettable, my sister will never come back and it's sad," Ghalley said. "All the happiness is gone, they miss their mother every day and night," Ghalley said, referring to Mongar's four children.

Born in Bhutan, Mongar spent 18 years living in a bamboo hut in a Nepalese refugee camp before coming to the United States in July 2009 as part of a humanitarian resettlement program, Smalley said. The mother of four and grandmother of one was 19 weeks into her pregnancy when, after getting a referral from a Washington, D.C., medical clinic, she went to Gosnell's practice.

There, Smalley said, "an unlicensed high school student" -- who got instructions from Gosnell over a cell phone -- gave the woman anesthesia, and there was no equipment to resuscitate her once things went wrong.

"These children have to grow up without their mother, you have a husband who is going to have to go on without his wife," Smalley said of Mongar's family. "There will be justice at the end of the day, but at what price? They've lost a loved one who can never come back."

Gosnell is next scheduled to appear in court on February 9.

BamaGrits84
01-25-2011, 09:06 PM
Just FYI for the pro-lifes (most of us I think) since we just had this discussion, did you all realize that Sunday was Sanctity of Sunday?