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Tyburn
12-11-2010, 05:39 PM
A fund for the third world developing countries, a preservation order for forrests, and an aggreement that the world Tempriture must not rise a further 2 degree centigrade :laugh:

But it is NOT a legally Binding aggreement. The ONLY Legally Binding aggreement on Climate Change is called Kyoto....and the two biggest polluters..The United States of America, and The Peoples Republic of China, refused point blank to sign the document...making the rest of the world, whether they stick to it or not...pretty much powerless.

The good news is that most people recognise that this process of Global Warming is part of a natural cycle, and secondly, that it doesnt mean every country is suddenly going to get hot (you wouldnt believe how many idiots used the British Freeze this last month to try and show how Global Warming couldnt possibly be happening :rolleyes: )

The reason it matters is because we are speeding up the process, and whereas we can cope when the world is in its hottest stage, we have not yet proven whether we can cope with the world during an ice age....and the shift from cold to warm, could have devistating impacts...NOT on the Planet, but DEFINATLEY on human civilization (we have a glorious habit of building in natural flood basins for example :laugh: )

So everyone is happy that the Ecological Conference in Mexico has at least not involved a no decision after two weeks in session :)

NateR
12-11-2010, 10:48 PM
"Global cooling" or "global warming" or "climate change" or whatever they're deciding to call it this decade, is all just a big lie. Unfortunately, it's a lie that's been repeated enough and for so long that people are becoming willing to give up essential freedoms in order to prevent something that is never going to happen.

flo
12-12-2010, 12:27 AM
Irony Alert - Record LOW temps for Global Warming Summit.

The irony: As negotiators from nearly 200 countries met in Cancun to strategize ways to keep the planet from getting hotter, the temperature in the seaside Mexican city plunged to a 100-year record low of 54 F. Climate-change skeptics are gleefully calling Cancun's weather the latest example of the "Gore Effect" — a plunge in temperature they say occurs wherever former Vice President Al Gore, now a Nobel Prize-winning environmental activist, makes a speech about the climate. Although Gore is not scheduled to speak in Cancun, "it could be that the Gore Effect has announced his secret arrival," jokes former NASA scientist Roy W. Spencer.
The reaction: ClimateGate was "bad enough," says Duncan Davidson in Wall Street Pit, but Cancun's weather is particularly "inconvenient" for global-warming alarmists. It's a reminder that global temperatures have "flatlined" despite rising carbon dioxide levels, "which is decidedly chilling against the concept of hampering economic growth to limit Co2 emissions." Grow up, says Tony Juniper in The Independent. "Sure, it's cold outside," but "the trend data show that the world is warming, that the climate is changing, and that the release of greenhouse gases is the cause." The longer we use every cold snap as an excuse to put off reducing emissions, "the bigger the risk we run. Tick tock, tick tock."



:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Link here: http://theweek.com/article/index/210181/irony-alert-the-unusually-chilly-global-warming-summit

flo
12-12-2010, 12:32 AM
This is why the global warming alarmists are trying to relabel their cause with new euphemisms, such as "Global Climate Disruption". If that doesn't sum up the left's methodology in a nutshell...give something unpalatable or of dubious scientific conclusion a new name so that we dopes will be convinced. After all, they know best.

:wink:

NateR
12-12-2010, 01:01 AM
This is why the global warming alarmists are trying to relabel their cause with new euphemisms, such as "Global Climate Disruption". If that doesn't sum up the left's methodology in a nutshell...give something unpalatable or of dubious scientific conclusion a new name so that we dopes will be convinced. After all, they know best.

:wink:

These self-proclaimed "experts" are positioning themselves to be the ones holding absolute power and they use fear-mongering tactics to convince us that doomsday is just around the corner if we don't listen to them and follow all of their recommendations without question. They're counting on the fact that, by the time we realize it's all a giant hoax, it will be too late and liberty will be a dead dream for our entire planet.

Just the fact that they silence any dissenting viewpoint strongly suggests that they are liars and that it's all just a big fraud.

flo
12-12-2010, 02:22 AM
These self-proclaimed "experts" are positioning themselves to be the ones holding absolute power and they use fear-mongering tactics to convince us that doomsday is just around the corner if we don't listen to them and follow all of their recommendations without question. They're counting on the fact that, by the time we realize it's all a giant hoax, it will be too late and liberty will be a dead dream for our entire planet.

Just the fact that they silence any dissenting viewpoint strongly suggests that they are liars and that it's all just a big fraud.
Absolutely right, Nate. Gore has refused to debate this topic. Refused! He claims it is proven science so why bother to debate.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 11:40 AM
"Global cooling" or "global warming" or "climate change" or whatever they're deciding to call it this decade, is all just a big lie. .

No its not.

The Global Tempriture is rising, thats just a fact....and Cutting carbon immissions is hardly asking anyone to give up any personal freedom :rolleyes:

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 11:43 AM
Irony Alert - Record LOW temps for Global Warming Summit.



:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Link here: http://theweek.com/article/index/210181/irony-alert-the-unusually-chilly-global-warming-summit

:huh: did you bother to read my original post...about the dumbasses who claimed because England had gone through a cold spell Global Warming couldnt possibily be happening

Do you understand the result of Global Warming, is Global Freezing?? Do you understand that.

Did you know this process has happened before, many times before? Did you know its a natural cycle of the planet??

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 11:47 AM
These self-proclaimed "experts" are positioning themselves to be the ones holding absolute power and they use fear-mongering tactics to convince us that doomsday is just around the corner if we don't listen to them and follow all of their recommendations without question. They're counting on the fact that, by the time we realize it's all a giant hoax, it will be too late and liberty will be a dead dream for our entire planet.

Just the fact that they silence any dissenting viewpoint strongly suggests that they are liars and that it's all just a big fraud.

Really...what Freedoms are they asking you to give up :blink: please do give me a nice list of the Freedoms they will take from you.

I suppose you think its a lie that fossil fuels are running out also :laugh:

Face it, whether you think its true or not, in the next 50 years your country will be forced to change the way it creates energy when its current energy source becomes scarce

Tell me Nathan...do you believe the world to be flat? or do you believe the sun goes round the earth?? because with global warming, you are acting EXACTLY like those who believed the above when presented with scientific evidence...there is NO REASON why Christians should always appear dumb when presented with Scientific Evidence, there is no reason why they have to deny every single scientific fact or theory. There is no reason to fear Science or what it might show. It annoys me no end that the religious cant see what Science actually is...the Scientists have an excuse, they are not aware, or mindful of GOD in their proceedings. But The Religious do not have that blanket of blindness to hold to. Rather then declaring everything you dont think is true and outright lie, and rather then being eternally paranoid that someone is out to take away your freedoms, perhaps you should ask yourself whether these people have a point, and while you are doing it, hold to some inalienable truthes. Firstly, you will never loose your most important freedoms, because they are GOD given, and GOD protected, Secondly, whether or not climate change is as dangerous as they make out, consider whether it is right for greedy companies to cause pollution, or destroy GOD natural creation. We will be judged on how well we have looked after this world, because its protection was given over to us...Yet we pollute, and we over hunt, over fish, and generally strip the earth for our own selfish gains.

Ask yourself this question. After the way we have treated the planet in the last 200 years, do we not deserve a large natural disastor. Might not GOD allow some disastor in order to push us back onto the right path...and would there not be signs and wonders to proclaim this before it happens.

After all...were the Magi Christian?? Did they use a Christian or Jewish Callendar to predict the Birth of Christ?? Yet did they not set off YEARS before the Brith of Christ because of Astrology (a forbidden area for the Christian to explore) GOD is bigger then the Church, and his signs and wonders are so large even completely different religions have been known to understand something of him...is it too hard to think that perhaps, whether the outcome is true or not, these people have a point, rather then boldly dismissing them and harping on. Be a Christian, but dont be a blind one

NateR
12-12-2010, 01:29 PM
.about the dumbasses

This is one of the problems that I have with the Global Warming alarmists. They are always so quick to resort to personal insults and call into question the intelligence of any person who dares question them. That's not the way to engage in a healthy intellectual debate and it's not the way to convince skeptics. It really just sounds like a bunch of con-artists trying to sell a scam.

Did you know this process has happened before, many times before? Did you know its a natural cycle of the planet??

If you put your faith in an Evolutionary timeline, written by men, rather than the Bible, written by GOD, then I understand why you would believe this.

But if you honestly believe that scientists actually view ALL of the facts with truly unbiased eyes and never allow their personal worldviews to influence their conclusions, well..... then you are seriously naive.

Besides, if it's a natural cycle of the planet, then it CAN'T be a result of carbon-dioxide emissions then, can it? You've disproved your own argument.

NateR
12-12-2010, 01:35 PM
I suppose you think its a lie that fossil fuels are running out also :laugh:

Tell me Nathan...do you believe the world to be flat? or do you believe the sun goes round the earth?? because with global warming, you are acting EXACTLY like those who believed the above when presented with scientific evidence...

Again, calling my intelligence into question really just proves the weakness of your own argument.

Firstly, you will never loose your most important freedoms, because they are GOD given, and GOD protected,

History would prove you wrong. People have been forced to fight for their basic GOD-given freedoms on this fallen, corrupt planet for its entire history.

Vizion
12-12-2010, 02:37 PM
31,487 scientists from all over the world (9,029 of the them with PHd) deny the reality of Global Warming. http://www.petitionproject.org/ - go read the petition, it is clear.

The U.N. produced the number of scientists they had to prove it at 2,400. Half of them were not weather experts in the slightest, were afraid to lose their tenure or not receive grant money for research if they did otherwise.

They even had plastic surgeons among the 2400 :laugh: who "approved the research".

I heard this all on a tv show, and assume its veracity.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 03:12 PM
1) This is one of the problems that I have with the Global Warming alarmists.

2) They are always so quick to resort to personal insults and call into question the intelligence of any person who dares question them.

3) That's not the way to engage in a healthy intellectual debate and it's not the way to convince skeptics. It really just sounds like a bunch of con-artists trying to sell a scam.



4) If you put your faith in an Evolutionary timeline, written by men,

5) rather than the Bible, written by GOD, then I understand why you would believe this.

6) But if you honestly believe that scientists actually view ALL of the facts with truly unbiased eyes and never allow their personal worldviews to influence their conclusions, well..... then you are seriously naive.

7) Besides, if it's a natural cycle of the planet, then it CAN'T be a result of carbon-dioxide emissions then, can it? You've disproved your own argument.
1) Alarmist?? You dont actually know what I believe will happen, because you havent bothered asking...but you jumped to some Al Goreian Conclusion of your own.

2) this isnt about intelligence, this is about the ability to see objectively how something that is non religious might have a grain of truth in it.

3) :laugh: since when has telling it like it is, not been acceptable Nathan...its alright for you to tell ME how it is on matters of Faith and sexuality, but its wrong for me to tell you how it is on matters of Faith and Science. :laugh:

4) I dont put my faith in the Evolutionary Timescale. I dont know if the evolutionary portion of back dated time actually existed or not, but I do know that within its scope, and from Genesis onwards, we are supposed to believe that the processes that would have governed such an era if it happened, are true. So for the argument of climate change, you have to assume that things will continue as if the Creational Event had happened prior to Chronology rather then in the middle of it.

5) Hey...at least I dont base all my faith in the mumblings of a ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP who dares to say at what time and on what date the Genesis Creational Account happened. For all your hatred towards the Church Dogma and Rome in particular, you use THEIR compilation of Scriptures, and THEIR doctrine on this aspect, which pretty much means you will never reconcile Science and Faith...dont blame GOD or ME for that, because thats just silly church Dogma....unless it gives the date 4004BC IN THE SCRIPTURES IMPLICITLY OUTSIDE OF A LARGELY SYMBOLIC LINAGE, then you cant say with any degree of certainty WHEN Genesis took place.

I happen to believe that 4004BC is probably about right...but I wouldnt DARE claim Scripture says so.

6) I'm sure they have their agenda...and you see that in terms of what exactly they say will happen. There are a few simple facts, the rest is largely speculation...just because the speculation is wild, doesnt mean the facts that underline them are....and Religious people are just as bad. Remember my examples? the earth is flat, the sun goes round the earth? whenever they dont understand anything, rather then analyse it, they pretend it doesnt exist and that GOD will redeem them...who exactly do you think CREATED the Universe??? That you would deny GODs signs and Wonders (I do remember you talking astronomically about the end of the world, was it last year on a particular date) rather then analyse them for yourself, rather then seeing if GOD is trying to use the natural world to show you something...is a sin in itself!

7) Carbon Dioxide is given off by more things then just power stations :laugh: like I said we are speeding up a natural process, that natural process usually takes millions of years, because it involves the build up of naturally expired air from everything other then plants more or less.

But...the release of Carbon Dioxide is not the only way to trigger a climate change...in the past it has also happened due to mass Geological events the have released gas into the atmosphere.

Fear not, Nathan, the planet will not be destroyed by us along the lines of climate change. But it will enact homeostatic mechanisms to bring the tempriture back down, and those may be uncomfortable depending on how quickly they occure. The planet is not in danger, but the civilization on the planet, will have to cope with different weather patterns, and land in different places quite possibly.

For example, people love to say that there will be mass flooding as the sea levels rise...yes, there will be...but land in other places becomes avialable...like at the Poles for example. People forget to say that some of the most arid parts of the planet will become fertile, they forget to say a deeper ocean will allow different kinds of fish and life to develope replacing what life becomes extinct because their habit dissapears...they forget to tell you the good points about a process we cant stop. It isnt all doom...and I have never espoused that it is...but you have jumpped to a conclusion based on what other people have told you...and you cant see any shade of grey...we either all denonce climate change as evil, or we are all sidekicks of Al Gore.

Now if you want to ask me what I believe, feel free, or if you want to put forward statements and ask if I aggree or dissagree, then go ahead...but dont jump to conclusions about what I mean, without clarifying them with me first.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 03:36 PM
1)Again, calling my intelligence into question really just proves the weakness of your own argument.



2) History would prove you wrong. People have been forced to fight for their basic GOD-given freedoms on this fallen, corrupt planet for its entire history.

1) why dont your try answering the Question. Perhaps your intelligence on this particular question NEEDS to be called into question

2) I'm still waiting for your list of freedoms which will vanish if Climate Change is correct.

I said your most important rights will never be violated...and they never will be...when I said that, I wasnt refering to your "right" to have a firearm, or your "right" to health care. I was talking about the fact that nothing can separate a person from GOD...even if your State declaired there was no such thing as GOD...they cant make him vanish by decree of anything.

A lot of Americans seem to live in a suprising ammount of fear. They worry about their rights being taken from them, everytime they dont like something, they immediately jump to how they are in bondage because of it. They seem to care more about fighting for the rights that dont really matter (guns for example) then the rights that really should (anything christian) and over all, when and if they are beaten, either GOD has deserted them, or is punishing them. They even tell me that some law of a State Government "threatens" a Divine Institution, or a sacrement

The truth is, GOD is unchanging and unchangeable no matter what situation you are in, and no matter what anyone in authority over you says. NOTHING can threaten GOD, and NOTHING can change his Truth. Evolution can NEVER threaten Genesis, Governments can NEVER threaten Christian Freedom of Expression, and Gays getting Married can not destroy marriage...because GOD is greater then any of these foolish man made changes...and victory is not signified by the ammount of people who believe them. Victory pure and simple is whoever believes the same as GOD. Anyone who believes in Intelligent Design MUST somehow reconcile Genesis, Imposing a new religion does not, and will not stop those with the courage from continuing to worship GOD even if it is privately or only in their hearts, and anyone who thinks homosexual marriage is right, is simply wrong, GOD has written that one in stone...so none of it, is truely a threat....and unlike yourself, who despite your fear of being oppressed, nevr really has been, and certainly is one of the most free countries on the planet, I live in a State which is fragile, and which knows plenty of bondage, one that imposes FAR heavier sanctions on its citizens then yours, in almost every area of life...and if I can come to the conclusion, facing FAR more persecution, and far less freedoms then yourself, that Nothing is a threat to GOD or his abilities, then you should ask yourself why you cant live and say the same thing with such gusto, rather then worrying about what rights you might not have tommorow.

Yes Governments might TRY to threaten...but thats when we see who has the courage of their convictions to win a Martyres Crown, and who rolls over, plays dead, and continues to moan about lost freedoms without putting their money where their mouths are.

Do you know, Tyburn is famous for something other then the Hangings? In Tyburn there was a Monastic Foundation in the little village near the river called Tyburn. Tyburn Convent, Exists to this day, as a closed order of Benedictine Contemplatives who still live by his Rule (do you recall what Rule I lived by in Saint Paul's Cathedral Lay Community?) The Convent, during the Reformation came under attack, terrible attack, Almost the entire contents of that foundation were executed for what they believed in, because they refused to back down on there sincere Christian Belief.

I suppose the same is true as it was for Global warming...The Planet is never under threat, but the civilization might be. Well GOD is never under threat, but his followers might be. Personally, I am beyond caring more and more each day, about the Church as an insitution, about "Christendom" and about "Civilization" or what happens to any of them. In the grand scheme of things they are not important.

GOD is important, and He cant be overcome.

That is the crux, and that is unchangable, and come the time of Revelation, History will prove me CORRECT

NateR
12-12-2010, 04:32 PM
31,487 scientists from all over the world (9,029 of the them with PHd) deny the reality of Global Warming. http://www.petitionproject.org/ - go read the petition, it is clear.

The U.N. produced the number of scientists they had to prove it at 2,400. Half of them were not weather experts in the slightest, were afraid to lose their tenure or not receive grant money for research if they did otherwise.

They even had plastic surgeons among the 2400 :laugh: who "approved the research".

I heard this all on a tv show, and assume its veracity.

Yeah, I've read lots of scientific evidence to disprove global warming. Some say it's a natural cycle that we aren't really affecting. Other evidence suggests that it's a result of sun spot activity and thus has no correlation to greenhouse gases whatsoever.

In actuality, I have no trouble believing that all this unchecked development and pollution is having having an adverse affect on our planet. I just have trouble putting my faith in the men who are positioning themselves to be our saviors.

NateR
12-12-2010, 04:58 PM
1) Alarmist?? You dont actually know what I believe will happen, because you havent bothered asking...but you jumped to some Al Goreian Conclusion of your own.

2) this isnt about intelligence, this is about the ability to see objectively how something that is non religious might have a grain of truth in it.

3) :laugh: since when has telling it like it is, not been acceptable Nathan...its alright for you to tell ME how it is on matters of Faith and sexuality, but its wrong for me to tell you how it is on matters of Faith and Science. :laugh:

4) I dont put my faith in the Evolutionary Timescale. I dont know if the evolutionary portion of back dated time actually existed or not, but I do know that within its scope, and from Genesis onwards, we are supposed to believe that the processes that would have governed such an era if it happened, are true. So for the argument of climate change, you have to assume that things will continue as if the Creational Event had happened prior to Chronology rather then in the middle of it.

5) Hey...at least I dont base all my faith in the mumblings of a ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP who dares to say at what time and on what date the Genesis Creational Account happened. For all your hatred towards the Church Dogma and Rome in particular, you use THEIR compilation of Scriptures, and THEIR doctrine on this aspect, which pretty much means you will never reconcile Science and Faith...dont blame GOD or ME for that, because thats just silly church Dogma....unless it gives the date 4004BC IN THE SCRIPTURES IMPLICITLY OUTSIDE OF A LARGELY SYMBOLIC LINAGE, then you cant say with any degree of certainty WHEN Genesis took place.

I happen to believe that 4004BC is probably about right...but I wouldnt DARE claim Scripture says so.

6) I'm sure they have their agenda...and you see that in terms of what exactly they say will happen. There are a few simple facts, the rest is largely speculation...just because the speculation is wild, doesnt mean the facts that underline them are....and Religious people are just as bad. Remember my examples? the earth is flat, the sun goes round the earth? whenever they dont understand anything, rather then analyse it, they pretend it doesnt exist and that GOD will redeem them...who exactly do you think CREATED the Universe??? That you would deny GODs signs and Wonders (I do remember you talking astronomically about the end of the world, was it last year on a particular date) rather then analyse them for yourself, rather then seeing if GOD is trying to use the natural world to show you something...is a sin in itself!

7) Carbon Dioxide is given off by more things then just power stations :laugh: like I said we are speeding up a natural process, that natural process usually takes millions of years, because it involves the build up of naturally expired air from everything other then plants more or less.

But...the release of Carbon Dioxide is not the only way to trigger a climate change...in the past it has also happened due to mass Geological events the have released gas into the atmosphere.

Fear not, Nathan, the planet will not be destroyed by us along the lines of climate change. But it will enact homeostatic mechanisms to bring the tempriture back down, and those may be uncomfortable depending on how quickly they occure. The planet is not in danger, but the civilization on the planet, will have to cope with different weather patterns, and land in different places quite possibly.

For example, people love to say that there will be mass flooding as the sea levels rise...yes, there will be...but land in other places becomes avialable...like at the Poles for example. People forget to say that some of the most arid parts of the planet will become fertile, they forget to say a deeper ocean will allow different kinds of fish and life to develope replacing what life becomes extinct because their habit dissapears...they forget to tell you the good points about a process we cant stop. It isnt all doom...and I have never espoused that it is...but you have jumpped to a conclusion based on what other people have told you...and you cant see any shade of grey...we either all denonce climate change as evil, or we are all sidekicks of Al Gore.

Now if you want to ask me what I believe, feel free, or if you want to put forward statements and ask if I aggree or dissagree, then go ahead...but dont jump to conclusions about what I mean, without clarifying them with me first.

1) why dont your try answering the Question. Perhaps your intelligence on this particular question NEEDS to be called into question

2) I'm still waiting for your list of freedoms which will vanish if Climate Change is correct.

I said your most important rights will never be violated...and they never will be...when I said that, I wasnt refering to your "right" to have a firearm, or your "right" to health care. I was talking about the fact that nothing can separate a person from GOD...even if your State declaired there was no such thing as GOD...they cant make him vanish by decree of anything.

A lot of Americans seem to live in a suprising ammount of fear. They worry about their rights being taken from them, everytime they dont like something, they immediately jump to how they are in bondage because of it. They seem to care more about fighting for the rights that dont really matter (guns for example) then the rights that really should (anything christian) and over all, when and if they are beaten, either GOD has deserted them, or is punishing them. They even tell me that some law of a State Government "threatens" a Divine Institution, or a sacrement

The truth is, GOD is unchanging and unchangeable no matter what situation you are in, and no matter what anyone in authority over you says. NOTHING can threaten GOD, and NOTHING can change his Truth. Evolution can NEVER threaten Genesis, Governments can NEVER threaten Christian Freedom of Expression, and Gays getting Married can not destroy marriage...because GOD is greater then any of these foolish man made changes...and victory is not signified by the ammount of people who believe them. Victory pure and simple is whoever believes the same as GOD. Anyone who believes in Intelligent Design MUST somehow reconcile Genesis, Imposing a new religion does not, and will not stop those with the courage from continuing to worship GOD even if it is privately or only in their hearts, and anyone who thinks homosexual marriage is right, is simply wrong, GOD has written that one in stone...so none of it, is truely a threat....and unlike yourself, who despite your fear of being oppressed, nevr really has been, and certainly is one of the most free countries on the planet, I live in a State which is fragile, and which knows plenty of bondage, one that imposes FAR heavier sanctions on its citizens then yours, in almost every area of life...and if I can come to the conclusion, facing FAR more persecution, and far less freedoms then yourself, that Nothing is a threat to GOD or his abilities, then you should ask yourself why you cant live and say the same thing with such gusto, rather then worrying about what rights you might not have tommorow.

Yes Governments might TRY to threaten...but thats when we see who has the courage of their convictions to win a Martyres Crown, and who rolls over, plays dead, and continues to moan about lost freedoms without putting their money where their mouths are.

Do you know, Tyburn is famous for something other then the Hangings? In Tyburn there was a Monastic Foundation in the little village near the river called Tyburn. Tyburn Convent, Exists to this day, as a closed order of Benedictine Contemplatives who still live by his Rule (do you recall what Rule I lived by in Saint Paul's Cathedral Lay Community?) The Convent, during the Reformation came under attack, terrible attack, Almost the entire contents of that foundation were executed for what they believed in, because they refused to back down on there sincere Christian Belief.

I suppose the same is true as it was for Global warming...The Planet is never under threat, but the civilization might be. Well GOD is never under threat, but his followers might be. Personally, I am beyond caring more and more each day, about the Church as an insitution, about "Christendom" and about "Civilization" or what happens to any of them. In the grand scheme of things they are not important.

GOD is important, and He cant be overcome.

That is the crux, and that is unchangable, and come the time of Revelation, History will prove me CORRECT

I don't even know where to begin. :rolleyes:

However, this comment here proves that you don't even bother to read my arguments from the past. The dating of the earth using the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with a Roman Catholic Bishop. If anything, he plagiarized his work from the ancient Jews. But, as this proves, you don't really care to actually read my arguments, you just go on the attack based on your preconceived notions about what you think I believe:

5) Hey...at least I dont base all my faith in the mumblings of a ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP who dares to say at what time and on what date the Genesis Creational Account happened. For all your hatred towards the Church Dogma and Rome in particular, you use THEIR compilation of Scriptures, and THEIR doctrine on this aspect, which pretty much means you will never reconcile Science and Faith...dont blame GOD or ME for that, because thats just silly church Dogma....unless it gives the date 4004BC IN THE SCRIPTURES IMPLICITLY OUTSIDE OF A LARGELY SYMBOLIC LINAGE, then you cant say with any degree of certainty WHEN Genesis took place.

I've never claimed to be an expert on Global Warming, or Climate Change. I simply don't believe that the people making all of these doomsday predictions are reliable and I choose to not put blind faith in their opinions and recommendations. That's all. It has nothing to do with not wanting to put my faith in true science, it's more about not wanting to put my faith in corrupt men with an agenda.

That is the crux, and that is unchangable, and come the time of Revelation, History will prove me CORRECT

Yeah, because Christians and Jews have NEVER been persecuted or slaughtered for their faith in GOD. :rolleyes:

flo
12-12-2010, 05:13 PM
:huh: did you bother to read my original post...about the dumbasses who claimed because England had gone through a cold spell Global Warming couldnt possibily be happening

Do you understand the result of Global Warming, is Global Freezing?? Do you understand that.

Did you know this process has happened before, many times before? Did you know its a natural cycle of the planet??

Yes, I did "bother" to read your post, you don't have to be rude to me.

Quit being so condescending. I understood weather trends when you were still in diapers.

I posted something on the subject I found ironic. If it is not proper on this forum to post a reply related to the topic, I would appreciate Nate letting me know and I will refrain from doing so again.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 05:18 PM
I don't even know where to begin. :rolleyes:

1)However, this comment here proves that you don't even bother to read my arguments from the past. The dating of the earth using the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with a Roman Catholic Bishop. If anything, he plagiarized his work from the ancient Jews. But, as this proves, you don't really care to actually read my arguments, you just go on the attack based on your preconceived notions about what you think I believe:



2) I've never claimed to be an expert on Global Warming, or Climate Change. I simply don't believe that the people making all of these doomsday predictions are reliable and I choose to not put blind faith in their opinions and recommendations. That's all. It has nothing to do with not wanting to put my faith in true science, it's more about not wanting to put my faith in corrupt men with an agenda.

1) I've yet to see you provide the Jewish source for dating the world to 4004BC...but if you can, then I stand corrected. In that case, we are both as bad as each other...because as I pointed out, you dont read me either. :laugh:

2)So you admit that it might be true after all :huh:

In which case...would you not want to know for yourself how much of it is true, and how much of it might be embellished for agenda? Not that you've asked for it...but I dont think we are looking at complete disastor...I'm not completely sure I know what Al Gore may or may not have told you.

I see sea levels rising, to the extent of land at the poles. In the North I see the gulf stream going out. But I dont see any of this happening over night, but over years and years and years. It will probably happen slow enough for us to adapt quite easily.

I see the tropical band, particularly in the north pushed south, and maybe north, meaning the North is frozen, the south is more tropical, and equitorial regions for deserts are much smaller...this means some of the african countries may become quite fertile.

Other then that, I dont see what the fuss is about. I would advocate green energy but not because of climate change, but because WELL before that is a concern...the fossil fuels will run out...we dont have an option about changing in that respect I dont think

I certainly DO NOT claim that Global Warming will do THIS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZ0SeZlZpg

NateR
12-12-2010, 05:57 PM
1) I've yet to see you provide the Jewish source for dating the world to 4004BC...but if you can, then I stand corrected. In that case, we are both as bad as each other...because as I pointed out, you dont read me either. :laugh:

2)So you admit that it might be true after all :huh:

In which case...would you not want to know for yourself how much of it is true, and how much of it might be embellished for agenda? Not that you've asked for it...but I dont think we are looking at complete disastor...I'm not completely sure I know what Al Gore may or may not have told you.

I see sea levels rising, to the extent of land at the poles. In the North I see the gulf stream going out. But I dont see any of this happening over night, but over years and years and years. It will probably happen slow enough for us to adapt quite easily.

I see the tropical band, particularly in the north pushed south, and maybe north, meaning the North is frozen, the south is more tropical, and equitorial regions for deserts are much smaller...this means some of the african countries may become quite fertile.

Other then that, I dont see what the fuss is about. I would advocate green energy but not because of climate change, but because WELL before that is a concern...the fossil fuels will run out...we dont have an option about changing in that respect I dont think

I certainly DO NOT claim that Global Warming will do THIS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZ0SeZlZpg

I watched Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" with an open mind because I wanted to see what he believed would happen. But I noticed a major flaw in the basic logical building blocks behind the entire theory: their use of the Evolutionary timescale. If the world is in fact only 6000 years old, not billions of years old, then taking the events of those 6000 years and stretching them out over the course of billions of years is obviously going to make whatever is happening today appear alarmingly accelerated.

Even disregarding the Biblical timetable for a moment, the Evolutionary timescale is based on unproven assumptions about the nature of the universe. One of those assumptions being Uniformitarianism, which is the idea what whatever natural processes we observe in the universe today, those processes have been unchanged since the beginning of time.

Of course you can't prove that because no one was around at the beginning of time except GOD (and He is one living eyewitness that Modern Science is no longer taking phone calls from). Plus, there are several phenomena that we observe today (like the shrinking of the sun or the reduction of the earth's gravitational pull) that cannot be constant because they would have eradicated the earth long before Evolution claims life started. So, Uniformitarianism can't be true.

So if the basic foundation of a theory is proven false, then it stands to reason that the entire theory is false.

If someone wants to sell their home, but learn that the foundation is irreparably damaged, they have two options. They can tear the house down and rebuild it from scratch. Or they can dress the house up and make it look nice and pretty in the hopes that any potential buyers will be so impressed by what they see above ground that they will never notice the fact that the foundation is crumbling until it is too late.

Like the Theory of Evolution, the theory of Climate Change is falling apart at it's foundation and those who stand to profit the most from Climate Change know it. This is why men like Al Gore are no longer willing to enter into debates to argue the merits of their theory.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 06:16 PM
I watched Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" with an open mind because I wanted to see what he believed would happen. But I noticed a major flaw in the basic logical building blocks behind the entire theory: their use of the Evolutionary timescale. If the world is in fact only 6000 years old, not billions of years old, then taking the events of those 6000 years and stretching them out over the course of billions of years is obviously going to make whatever is happening today appear alarmingly accelerated.

Even disregarding the Biblical timetable for a moment, the Evolutionary timescale is based on unproven assumptions about the nature of the universe. One of those assumptions being Uniformitarianism, which is the idea what whatever natural processes we observe in the universe today, those processes have been unchanged since the beginning of time.

Of course you can't prove that because no one was around at the beginning of time except GOD (and He is one living eyewitness that Modern Science is no longer taking phone calls from). Plus, there are several phenomena that we observe today (like the shrinking of the sun or the reduction of the earth's gravitational pull) that cannot be constant because they would have eradicated the earth long before Evolution claims life started. So, Uniformitarianism can't be true.

So if the basic foundation of a theory is proven false, then it stands to reason that the entire theory is false.

If someone wants to sell their home, but learn that the foundation is irreparably damaged, they have two options. They can tear the house down and rebuild it from scratch. Or they can dress the house up and make it look nice and pretty in the hopes that any potential buyers will be so impressed by what they see above ground that they will never notice the fact that the foundation is crumbling until it is too late.

Like the Theory of Evolution, the theory of Climate Change is falling apart at it's foundation and those who stand to profit the most from Climate Change know it. This is why men like Al Gore are no longer willing to enter into debates to argue the merits of their theory.

I've never watched Al Gores film.

I believe the Earth was Created in Seven days 4004 BC ...but I also believe that GOD has either created, or shown how that Creation could have come to be using scientific principles. Why?

Well first we have to get away from thinking Because Genesis is special, Normal Natural processes are not. GODs Rules govern both. He created supernatural rules to create Genesis account, but he is the one who also created the hum drum, seamingly borningly predictable natural rules that goven every single day since the fall.

Secondly Because AFTER Genesis, things did not continue the way they had within those seven days. Men were not formed from dust in a cloud, and women did not spring from a rib taken from man. Instead, Man and Woman joined together and fertilized an egg. Now in the same way, none of GODs creation continued to reproduce in the way it had during those seven days. The ONLY thing that remains constant from the Genesis Account is that all the animals are still given there names by Man....but not necc when they are created...just when we discover their creation has occured by stumbling across them

So what rules do we use to show how His Creation progresses? Well we have to use HIS laws. His Natural rather then SuperNatural Laws. In order to understand those laws we have to look back as if the Genesis account had not occured...because Genesis does not reveal to us the laws of GODs universe, it simply gives us the supernatural laws of his creation.

Now whether what appears to have happened BEFORE Genesis really happened or not, I dont know, and I dont care to know. But I think in order to predict the future scientifically we must use the rules that would have been around then. These are NOT rules of creation, they are Rules of the progression of creation.

I have already explained to you the premise of backdated time, and how by making the event (like the salvation event) a point outside of Chronology, it doesnt matter where in chronology you put it. I dont understand how you can believe that with the Salvation issue, but cant accept its possibility with the Creation issue. You do accept it, for you accept that there are people saved from before Christs mortal birth. We call it "Credited with Righteousness" well think of everything before 4004BC as "Credited with Creation" and you have exactly the same thing happening.

Now to address your other points...you are correct that, even including backdated time, we dont know if the cycle actually repeats, we dont know if our speeding up of it has damaged it...and either will change the suspected outcome...you are also correct that people will use this for their own agenda.

But please, when dealing with me, separate the embelishment from the facts. because I know only the facts...and do not know properly what their consequences will be. I know only that taking into account backdated time, this is supposed to be a recurrent cycle, that the possible changes have as many positives as negatives, and that we are speeding up a process. I also know the icecaps are melting, and the global tempriture is rising. But that is all I am saying...if Al Gore is saying any more then that...count me out...I am not his follower, I dont really know his full position.

I hope this explains where I am coming from :)

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 06:56 PM
Yes, I did "bother" to read your post, you don't have to be rude to me.

Quit being so condescending. I understood weather trends when you were still in diapers.

I posted something on the subject I found ironic. If it is not proper on this forum to post a reply related to the topic, I would appreciate Nate letting me know and I will refrain from doing so again.

Sorry for being rude.

do you forgive me

NateR
12-12-2010, 07:10 PM
I've never watched Al Gores film.

I believe the Earth was Created in Seven days 4004 BC ...but I also believe that GOD has either created, or shown how that Creation could have come to be using scientific principles.

Of course, I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise. And the fact that you assume I fear science just further proves that you never read my posts. I simply have trouble putting my faith in human scientists and self-proclaimed experts.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 07:15 PM
Of course, I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise.

:blink: so you believe there was a time before the Genesis account?? You believe in backdated time???

I thought you believed that nothing existed before 4004BC...can you clarify that for me

Neezar
12-12-2010, 07:43 PM
A fund for the third world developing countries, a preservation order for forrests, and an aggreement that the world Tempriture must not rise a further 2 degree centigrade :laugh:

But it is NOT a legally Binding aggreement. The ONLY Legally Binding aggreement on Climate Change is called Kyoto....and the two biggest polluters..The United States of America, and The Peoples Republic of China, refused point blank to sign the document...making the rest of the world, whether they stick to it or not...pretty much powerless.

The good news is that most people recognise that this process of Global Warming is part of a natural cycle, and secondly, that it doesnt mean every country is suddenly going to get hot (you wouldnt believe how many idiots used the British Freeze this last month to try and show how Global Warming couldnt possibly be happening :rolleyes: )

The reason it matters is because we are speeding up the process, and whereas we can cope when the world is in its hottest stage, we have not yet proven whether we can cope with the world during an ice age....and the shift from cold to warm, could have devistating impacts...NOT on the Planet, but DEFINATLEY on human civilization (we have a glorious habit of building in natural flood basins for example :laugh: )

So everyone is happy that the Ecological Conference in Mexico has at least not involved a no decision after two weeks in session :)

:huh: did you bother to read my original post...about the dumbasses who claimed because England had gone through a cold spell Global Warming couldnt possibily be happening

Do you understand the result of Global Warming, is Global Freezing?? Do you understand that.

Did you know this process has happened before, many times before? Did you know its a natural cycle of the planet??

Really...what Freedoms are they asking you to give up :blink: please do give me a nice list of the Freedoms they will take from you.

I suppose you think its a lie that fossil fuels are running out also :laugh:

Face it, whether you think its true or not, in the next 50 years your country will be forced to change the way it creates energy when its current energy source becomes scarce

Tell me Nathan...do you believe the world to be flat? or do you believe the sun goes round the earth?? because with global warming, you are acting EXACTLY like those who believed the above when presented with scientific evidence...there is NO REASON why Christians should always appear dumb when presented with Scientific Evidence, there is no reason why they have to deny every single scientific fact or theory. ............


Hmmmmm.....

1) Alarmist?? You dont actually know what I believe will happen, because you havent bothered asking...but you jumped to some Al Goreian Conclusion of your own.

2) this isnt about intelligence, this is about the ability to see objectively how something that is non religious might have a grain of truth in it.


..............


You sure did dance around the intelligence factor in all of this before declaring "this isn't about intelligence"

Neezar
12-12-2010, 07:45 PM
Sorry for being rude.

do you forgive me

I don't. And it wasn't even directed towards me. :angry:

NateR
12-12-2010, 07:46 PM
:blink: so you believe there was a time before the Genesis account?? You believe in backdated time???

I thought you believed that nothing existed before 4004BC...can you clarify that for me

GOD existed eternally before Genesis 1:1. He has no beginning and no end.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 07:50 PM
Hmmmmm.....




You sure did dance around the intelligence factor in all of this before declaring "this isn't about intelligence"

would you like to be my Biographer :huh::ashamed::laugh:

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 07:53 PM
GOD existed eternally before Genesis 1:1. He has no beginning and no end.

Yes...but he how did he demonstrate his laws for the progression of Creation, if there was no Backdated time.

You said you didnt contest "but I also believe that GOD has either created, or shown how that Creation could have come to be using scientific principles"

So how, before the Genesis account did he demonstrate anything Nathan?

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 07:53 PM
I don't. And it wasn't even directed towards me. :angry:

:laugh: yes you do. :ashamed:

NateR
12-12-2010, 08:08 PM
Yes...but he how did he demonstrate his laws for the progression of Creation, if there was no Backdated time.

You said you didnt contest "but I also believe that GOD has either created, or shown how that Creation could have come to be using scientific principles"

So how, before the Genesis account did he demonstrate anything Nathan?

That's not the idea that I was agreeing with. True science is not about hypotheticals, it's about facts than can be supported with empirical evidence. Thus, if GOD created the universe, then nothing in that universe can contradict His existence. So we, as Christians, have nothing to fear from science.

That's what I thought you were saying and that's the idea that I was agreeing with.

Tyburn
12-12-2010, 08:26 PM
That's not the idea that I was agreeing with. True science is not about hypotheticals, it's about facts than can be supported with empirical evidence. Thus, if GOD created the universe, then nothing in that universe can contradict His existence. So we, as Christians, have nothing to fear from science.

That's what I thought you were saying and that's the idea that I was agreeing with.

ohh...I see...but I also said you didnt have to fear the most important rights being taken away...and you said History prooved me wrong. Did you highlight the wrong thing in your quote perchance :huh:

Easy to do with me, since I write so extensively :ashamed:

:laugh:

flo
12-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Sorry for being rude.

do you forgive me

Of course I do.

NateR
12-13-2010, 12:43 AM
ohh...I see...but I also said you didnt have to fear the most important rights being taken away...and you said History prooved me wrong. Did you highlight the wrong thing in your quote perchance :huh:

Easy to do with me, since I write so extensively :ashamed:

:laugh:

You said that we never have to worry about our basic human rights being taken away because they are granted by GOD. While it is true that our rights are granted by GOD, they are constantly in danger of being taken from us, because we live in a fallen world and Satan is the prince of this world. This is why the price of freedom is eternal vigilance in protecting that freedom.

History has proven your comments wrong:
http://www.wabash.edu/images2/news/warsawboybetter.jpg
http://www.memo.fr/Media/Buchenwald-1945.jpg
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/HOLOCAUST-2corpses.GIF
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/shoah-pile6.GIF
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/corpses16-SHOAH.GIF
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/holocaust-corpses2.GIF
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/holo-corpses.GIF
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/Holocaust-corpses3.GIF
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/holocaust-remnants2.GIF
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/dachau-corpses.GIF
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gcA0ZuKGkI8/TE3xYeuJG5I/AAAAAAAAIJc/zNB-cGl-xuk/s1600/holocaust123.jpg
http://price4prez.wikispaces.com/file/view/holocaust-mass-grave.jpg/178249705/holocaust-mass-grave.jpg
http://www.utexas.edu/features/2005/holocaust/graphics/holocaust5.jpg
http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/holocaust/medexp.jpg
http://110900.myauthorsite.com/images/site_graphics/RWANDA%20GROUP%20F04.jpg
http://110900.myauthorsite.com/images/site_graphics/RWANDA%20GROUP%20H01.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vADGnqDkynw/SvzWgGfnGTI/AAAAAAAAAsE/fupL48FqaKk/s400/Siege+of+Sarajevo+Bosniak+Muslim+Civilian+Victim+K illed.jpg
http://www.armenian-history.com/Nyuter/HISTORY/ARMENIA20/Armenia20picture/Genocide%20pic/armenian-genocide5.JPG
http://cdn.hragvartanian.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/2487496310_129befbf34.jpg
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/7/armenian_genocide_turkey_la.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/Kurds.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/halabja-1.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/halabja.jpg

DonnaMaria
12-13-2010, 12:52 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words.............:cry:

I think Nate said everything that needs to be said.:cry:

I've seen ALL of those before..........and it never gets easier to see them.

And I guess it shouldn't get easier.

County Mike
12-13-2010, 12:20 PM
Tyburn: Do you believe that we once had an ice age?
Can you believe that we NEEDED the world to warm up?
Can you believe that we're still on the warming side of that natural rise and fall?

It really isn't a big stretch.

Just because the world is getting warmer, doesn't mean we're the ones causing it.

I'm going to drive my Chevy Avalanche 2500 (12 mpg) around a little extra today.
Just for you.

Tyburn
12-13-2010, 12:35 PM
You said that we never have to worry about our basic human rights being taken away because they are granted by GOD. While it is true that our rights are granted by GOD, they are constantly in danger of being taken from us, because we live in a fallen world and Satan is the prince of this world. This is why the price of freedom is eternal vigilance in protecting that freedom.

History has proven your comments wrong:

Do you wish me to re-quote what I wrote about the Martyres and the End Times, or are you prepared to read it for yourself.

Nothing can separate us from GOD, Especially not Governments and their restriction on human rights

The Bible says nothing like "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance in protecting that freedom" that is not Biblical. Do you Trust that GOD holds power over the Devil...or do you think he is desperate for your help?

I am sure he will use his followers to protect freedom, but lets be very clear about where Freedom comes from, and whose power protects it. It isnt a Government, and it isnt a Church. Its GOD

If needs be one dies for that belief...like I showed you with the Convent of Tyburn during the Reformation.

Tyburn
12-13-2010, 12:43 PM
Tyburn: 1) Do you believe that we once had an ice age?
2) Can you believe that we NEEDED the world to warm up?
3) Can you believe that we're still on the warming side of that natural rise and fall?

It really isn't a big stretch.

Just because the world is getting warmer, doesn't mean we're the ones causing it.

I'm going to drive my Chevy Avalanche 2500 (12 mpg) around a little extra today.
Just for you.

1) Yes, taking into account backdated time, I believe there have been at least two Ice Ages. I believe the last one finished maybe as long as a Million years ago...There are many ancient books that record a flood, or deluge, and scholars think this took place about 10K years ago, they think it could have been triggered by the last glacial melt from the Ice Age. particularly as it seems to have hit the world most at the base of mountain ranges that could have remained frozen long after the age was over. How much of that is precise and how much is a theory I dont know.

2) I dont think we needed it. I think we have the ability to live in both. An Ice Age is NOT the same as "snowball Earth" most Ice Ages dont result in what that one did. IA warmer earth wouldnt be bad...I think we have a long way to go before we reach the warmest. We still have extensive poles for a start

3) Globally we are still on a rise, but that doesnt mean every person feels warmer, its an average tempriture...certain places will be hotter then others. England isnt supposed to be this warm because of its Latitude, so us going cold is not a sign the ice age has begun. We are definately still on the warming side. I expect land at the poles before we reach the point where we go cold again.

NateR
12-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Do you wish me to re-quote what I wrote about the Martyres and the End Times, or are you prepared to read it for yourself.

Nothing can separate us from GOD, Especially not Governments and their restriction on human rights

The Bible says nothing like "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance in protecting that freedom" that is not Biblical. Do you Trust that GOD holds power over the Devil...or do you think he is desperate for your help?

I am sure he will use his followers to protect freedom, but lets be very clear about where Freedom comes from, and whose power protects it. It isnt a Government, and it isnt a Church. Its GOD

If needs be one dies for that belief...like I showed you with the Convent of Tyburn during the Reformation.

Um, yes. I agree. In fact, we're trying to convince each other of the exact same point. :rolleyes:

The Declaration of Independence (1776):
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are granted to us by GOD, but since we are living in a fallen world, then we need to continually strive to protect those freedoms, because...

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton (1887)

All human run governments are either corrupt or in the process of becoming corrupt. The ultimate desire of all governments is to seize power for itself at the expense of its citizens. Unfortunately government is a necessary evil. This is why the Founding Fathers understood that for freedom to exist, then government needed to be kept small and under the thumb of its own population.

Thomas Jefferson:
When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Is this all starting to make sense now?

Dethbob
12-13-2010, 01:26 PM
The Bible says nothing like "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance in protecting that freedom" that is not Biblical.

Oh come on now! Do you seriously believe there is no Biblical foundation for human rights? Or perhaps there is an exhortation to apathy?

Tyburn
12-13-2010, 01:37 PM
Oh come on now! Do you seriously believe there is no Biblical foundation for human rights? Or perhaps there is an exhortation to apathy?

Do I trust a fallen insitution to create an undisputed list of rights for the individual?

No I do not.

Rights are given and preserved by GOD...anything the State can take away may effect you physically, but the State cant take away anything Spiritual. The Church is in the same position.

Tyburn
12-13-2010, 01:39 PM
Um, yes. I agree. In fact, we're trying to convince each other of the exact same point. :rolleyes:

The Declaration of Independence (1776):


Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are granted to us by GOD, but since we are living in a fallen world, then we need to continually strive to protect those freedoms, because...



All human run governments are either corrupt or in the process of becoming corrupt. The ultimate desire of all governments is to seize power for itself at the expense of its citizens. Unfortunately government is a necessary evil. This is why the Founding Fathers understood that for freedom to exist, then government needed to be kept small and under the thumb of its own population.

Thomas Jefferson:


Is this all starting to make sense now?

How do you reconcile this, with Trusting that Government not to abuse locking up people without trial in the case of Terrorism, when they cant define it, and do not even bother with a charge let alone a trial.

Do you trust your Government not to abuse that???

NateR
12-13-2010, 08:31 PM
How do you reconcile this, with Trusting that Government not to abuse locking up people without trial in the case of Terrorism, when they cant define it, and do not even bother with a charge let alone a trial.

Do you trust your Government not to abuse that???

I'm sorry, I think you posted in the wrong thread.

Tyburn
12-13-2010, 09:09 PM
I'm sorry, I think you posted in the wrong thread.

:blink: which thread is this...and what subject are we debating here...oh shyte...this is evolution and climate change...not Guantanamo isnt it. :ashamed:

NateR
12-13-2010, 11:35 PM
Do I trust a fallen insitution to create an undisputed list of rights for the individual?

No I do not.

Rights are given and preserved by GOD...anything the State can take away may effect you physically, but the State cant take away anything Spiritual. The Church is in the same position.

The Founding Fathers believed the exact same thing. Our rights are not granted by governments or men. Thus, governments have no right to infringe upon those rights. HOWEVER, that doesn't stop governments from trying and trying and trying again to squash those rights at every possible opportunity.

Do you believe that GOD protects us from harm? If so, then do you lock your doors at night? Wouldn't locking the doors of your home or keeping a firearm for home protection be a lack of faith in GOD's ability to protect? Not at all. One of the ways that GOD protects us is allowing us the freedom to protect ourselves.

So GOD grants us our human rights, but one of the ways that He protects those rights is by giving us the ability to fight for those rights whenever they are threatened. It's the only way that we will ever actually appreciate and properly value those rights.

So, once we gain our freedom from government and put the government on a short leash and keep it under control, then we need to be constantly watchful to keep from giving that government too much power.

Think of it like a fire. Fire is an immensely destructive force that can destroy homes, lives and just about everything in its path. However, if controlled, fire can also be used for constructive purposes: everything from forging metal to baking a cake.

Mark
12-13-2010, 11:44 PM
So, once we gain our freedom from government and put the government on a short leash and keep it under control, then we need to be constantly watchful to keep from giving that government too much power.

Obama?

NateR
12-13-2010, 11:47 PM
Obama?

Fortunately, his leash got reeeallllly short last November. :laugh::cool:

Still not short enough, though.

Tyburn
12-15-2010, 08:06 PM
The Founding Fathers believed the exact same thing.

Do you believe that GOD protects us from harm?


Dont forget...your founding fathers WERE a Government of their Day. They were in political office well before Independance. They created and decided what your rights were....they may then have moved to ensure no future Government could change that list...but the list didnt fall out of the sky, neither was it delivered by a messenger from GOD...it was the product of a group of men. Whilst I dont despute that it is perhaps the best list of rights ever invented...its not a bit of Scripture. Its not a quotation from the Bible, and its actually not a list my Nation fully subscribes to...we have slightly different things on our list. Even the ideal of the United Nations Human Rights...is a man made list of what people THINK are "rights" Thats just food for thought, rather then a criticism of what your saying, or of the document itself.

No, I dont believe GOD protects us from all mortal harm...but Mortal harm isnt the concern of the Christian. Saint Paul was locked up for the latter part of his Ministry...He did not write angry letters about Romans stealing his mortal rights away from him. Neither did he write a call for arms, that I am aware of. He didnt rally for a revolution, and he did rally for the Christian Community to band together and form a militia with the intent of freeing him from prison...infact, Living all together became something neither here, nor there for him.

His ideal of Fighting, was not really the Republican ideal of using force or threat of force to ensure a list of rights. His ideal of fighting was to minister to churches where spiritual warfare could not just cost mortal lives...but spiritual souls

GOD didnt protect Saint Paul. He was beheaded by the Romans in the end. But there was no doubt as to his destination beyond that happening...and that was never at risk.

I do see, and understand your point...but thats NOT exactly what I was talking about. When I spoke about GOD given Rights...I was not refering to anything on the Bill of Rights, or anything from the Declaration, or anything from your Constitution. I was refering to the fact, that for a Christian, it actually doesnt matter in the long term. Because ones Salvation is secure. The Lord will Provide what you need, when you need it, always, regardless of your Governments level of Tyrany...But there may come a time where you have to be prepared to do some of the things GOD allows, when your Country men may not, even if the consequence of that is your personal demise.

Martyredom is not tragic, its Glorious. When one remembers that noone can do you harm, lest the Lord allow, then it is fine, if you die, it be because the Almighty has decreed that. The Lord Gavest, and The Lord hath Taken Away.