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CAVEMAN
12-02-2010, 08:43 PM
It seems to me a state that is 130 billion in the red should be approving a balanced budget, but instead we get this. I am really considering a move!

http://www.thetelegraph.com/news/gay-47793-senate-approves.html

Tyburn
12-02-2010, 10:20 PM
It seems to me a state that is 130 billion in the red should be approving a balanced budget, but instead we get this. I am really considering a move!

http://www.thetelegraph.com/news/gay-47793-senate-approves.html

Its not a marriage liscence if you read the document, its just a civil partnership, im suprised thats not available anywhere in the U.S

It doesnt force the churches to do anything, and its not recognised as a religious joining, and there was no mention of a huge tax payers fee...so whats your problem exactly?

Its not even recognised as a union by the Federal Government...its just for things like next of kin...which is actually really important. Having lived with these issues, and having familial ties strained because of it, I can see the tension. If I had a partner the family didnt like, and I was to die...unless he is assigned as legal next of kin, they can write him out of everything from estate, to burrial arrangements...and believe me some, especially religiously minded, families WOULD do that.

Its very cruel, even if you dont aggree with a union to push out and barr one side of that union when the other side dies...civil unions can sometimes go along way to solving that problem...its not a marriage...its a legal contract to stop the family doing something really inexcusably mean...and dare I say increadibly unchristian.

I dont know that I could trust mine...

CAVEMAN
12-03-2010, 04:40 PM
Its not a marriage liscence if you read the document, its just a civil partnership, im suprised thats not available anywhere in the U.S

It doesnt force the churches to do anything, and its not recognised as a religious joining, and there was no mention of a huge tax payers fee...so whats your problem exactly?

Its not even recognised as a union by the Federal Government...its just for things like next of kin...which is actually really important. Having lived with these issues, and having familial ties strained because of it, I can see the tension. If I had a partner the family didnt like, and I was to die...unless he is assigned as legal next of kin, they can write him out of everything from estate, to burrial arrangements...and believe me some, especially religiously minded, families WOULD do that.

Its very cruel, even if you dont aggree with a union to push out and barr one side of that union when the other side dies...civil unions can sometimes go along way to solving that problem...its not a marriage...its a legal contract to stop the family doing something really inexcusably mean...and dare I say increadibly unchristian.

I dont know that I could trust mine...

The thing that bothers me is the state of Illinois is 130 billion dollars in debt and instead of dealing with a monumental issue like that, our officials are spending their time endorsing perversion.

NateR
12-03-2010, 05:37 PM
..and believe me some, especially religiously minded, families WOULD do that.

As they should.

Is the mistress of a married man automatically entitled to a portion of that man's estate in the event of his death? No. Does the state or federal government protect that woman's "rights" against being locked out by that man's wife and children? No. Unless that man specifically names his mistress in his will, then she gets nothing and the state is not going to reward the immoral relationship by protecting her "rights" in this matter.

It's the same story with homosexual partnerships. They should not be rewarded for immorality and perversion by the state, just because they've been doing it a long time.

The government should simply have no say in marriages, civil unions, etc. If it's the marriage tax breaks that the gays want (which is weird, because I thought this was about love?), then get rid of the tax breaks for married couples. It's a small price to pay to preserve the sanctity of the divine institution of marriage.

rearnakedchoke
12-03-2010, 05:48 PM
As they should.

The government should simply have no say in marriages, civil unions, etc.

to what extent? if the gov't has no say in marriage, couldn't someone technically become a preacher or whatever and specialize in same sex marriages .. i am just trying to see where you are coming from .. who would ensure people are not being married multiple times etc ...

Tyburn
12-03-2010, 06:05 PM
As they should.

Is the mistress of a married man automatically entitled to a portion of that man's estate in the event of his death? No. Does the state or federal government protect that woman's "rights" against being locked out by that man's wife and children? No. Unless that man specifically names his mistress in his will, then she gets nothing and the state is not going to reward the immoral relationship by protecting her "rights" in this matter.

It's the same story with homosexual partnerships. They should not be rewarded for immorality and perversion by the state, just because they've been doing it a long time.

The government should simply have no say in marriages, civil unions, etc. If it's the marriage tax breaks that the gays want (which is weird, because I thought this was about love?), then get rid of the tax breaks for married couples. It's a small price to pay to preserve the sanctity of the divine institution of marriage.

Gays are not married in the first place Nathan, and under the proposed law, they never will be married. The "divine institution of marriage" is not under threat here. This is a legal contract, that is all. One only recognised in the State produced and by the Local Government. Besides...we call marriages "A sacrement" not a "divine insitution"

If you are going down that route, then you must note that ANY Marriage NOT sanctified by GOD is adultory...that includes ANYONE who marries a non christian, ANYONE who is an Athiest, ANYONE who is homosexual, ANYONE who has children before being Wed....and any Marriage outside of the Church.

But I dont see you EVER campaigning against the thousands of fraudulent Christians...or plain athiests that "marry"...and dare you to suggest, on the death of one, that the Estate should go back to the parents!!

The Deceased should be allowed to decide what happens to their property after their death, in all cases. I am glad that Illinois will now allow a legal contract to allow those who are Homosexual to have their last wishes honoured...soddomite or not, they are made in HIS image, and they have intrinsic value because of it. The stuff belongs to them, they should be allowed to dictate

Tyburn
12-03-2010, 06:13 PM
The thing that bothers me is the state of Illinois is 130 billion dollars in debt and instead of dealing with a monumental issue like that, our officials are spending their time endorsing perversion.

So...would you be happy if the State of Illinois ceased ALL OTHER FUNCTIONS besides debt management? or are they allowed to multi-task?

Are you trying to tell me this one vote is their only business of the day??

...and just why are they in debt in the first place?...never mind getting them out of debt, if its incureance was their own fault...its not enough to get them solvent, they must change their ways.

Like I'm confident Wall Street have done, and im confident the Federal Government is now taking responsibility for policing an industry within their own boarders which has caused significant heartache to almost the entire western world. :mellow:

I have no doubt you mean what you say...I just find your particular example very disturbing...I am sure the State is wasting its time on numerous projects that are far worse then allowing a dying human being their last wish, however morally wrong that may be.

flo
12-03-2010, 06:17 PM
Good for Illinois. I'm all for civil unions.

A gay or lesbian person in a committed relationship is not comparable to a mistress. I can understand the feelings on both sides of this issue.

NateR
12-03-2010, 06:20 PM
to what extent? if the gov't has no say in marriage, couldn't someone technically become a preacher or whatever and specialize in same sex marriages .. i am just trying to see where you are coming from .. who would ensure people are not being married multiple times etc ...

Well, that's what people have done in the past and I'm kind of surprised that the Gay Rights movement hasn't simply tried to establish it's own church for the sole purpose of performing gay marriages. Of course, the state wouldn't recognize the marriage, but if this is truly about "love" then why would that matter?

NateR
12-03-2010, 06:22 PM
Gays are not married in the first place Nathan, and under the proposed law, they never will be married. The "divine institution of marriage" is not under threat here. This is a legal contract, that is all. One only recognised in the State produced and by the Local Government. Besides...we call marriages "A sacrement" not a "divine insitution"

If you are going down that route, then you must note that ANY Marriage NOT sanctified by GOD is adultory...that includes ANYONE who marries a non christian, ANYONE who is an Athiest, ANYONE who is homosexual, ANYONE who has children before being Wed....and any Marriage outside of the Church.

But I dont see you EVER campaigning against the thousands of fraudulent Christians...or plain athiests that "marry"...and dare you to suggest, on the death of one, that the Estate should go back to the parents!!

The Deceased should be allowed to decide what happens to their property after their death, in all cases. I am glad that Illinois will now allow a legal contract to allow those who are Homosexual to have their last wishes honoured...soddomite or not, they are made in HIS image, and they have intrinsic value because of it. The stuff belongs to them, they should be allowed to dictate

So, it's not really about love, it's about money and possessions. I get it.

flo
12-03-2010, 06:29 PM
Sort of OT but not really. Here's a "Dear Abby" letter I cut out of our newspaper; this was several years ago as we haven't taken a paper in a while. It's also the only time I ever cut something out and pinned it up on my bulletin-board wall.

DEAR ABBY:
My husband and I raised our two sons and two daughters. One son and both daughters married well. Our other son, "Neil" is gay. He and his partner, "Ron" have been together 15 years, but Neil's father and I never wanted to know Ron because we disapproved of their lifestyle.

When I was 74, my husband died, leaving me in ill health and nearly penniless. No longer able to live alone, I asked my married son and two daughters if I could "visit" each of them for four months a year. (I didn't want to burden any one family, and thought living out of a suitcase would be best for everyone.) All three turned me down. Feeling unwanted, I wanted to die.

When Neil and Ron heard what had happened, they invited me to move across country and live with them. They welcomed me into their home, and even removed a wall between two rooms so I'd have a bedroom with a private bath and sitting room - although we spend most of our time together.

They also inculed me in many of their plans. Since I moved in with them, I have traveled more than I have my whole life and seen places I only read about in books. They never mention the fact that they are supporting me, or that I ignored them in the past.

When old friends ask how it feels living with my gay son, I tell them I hope they're lucky enough to have one who will take them in one day. Please contrinue urging your readers to accept their children as they are. My only regret is that I wasted 15 years.
-GRATEFUL MOM

Tyburn
12-03-2010, 06:32 PM
So, it's not really about love, it's about money and possessions. I get it.

Yes....Its about legal status...usually...

you will know when its about "love" or when its millitant and they are using the "eqaulity" shyte, because thats when they are not happy with a legal contract...and thats the point that I jump sides and say...enough is enough...you CANT force a church to "marry" anyone...because the Church doesnt do the "marrying" thats from GOD...and thats the definition of a Sacrement....its a sacred blessing and gift from GOD alone...they will never get what they want going through the church...because even if the church was liberal and did the ceremony..its nothing but an empty set of words (infact...in a dis-established church, its LESSER then a Legal Contract, unless you have a registrar, or some kinda state/federal representative who can document it and put legal backing behind an otherwise purely religious blessing)

Civil Unions...Okay.... (though I would force anyone not a christian to do that in a perfect world) Marriage...is reserved only for those who GOD joins in Holy Matrimony....and...he cant be bribed, and is higher then your Consitutional Law :laugh:

flo
12-03-2010, 06:37 PM
So, it's not really about love, it's about money and possessions. I get it.
I respectfully disagree with you, Nate. I think it's about love as well as financial concerns. And why not? Money *is* important. It's about equal treatment under the law, which civil unions would grant.

It's a tough subject. I had to think about this for a long time to decide what is right in my heart. I have friends as well as cousins on both sides of the family who are gay and I want them to have love in their lives and be happy. I still do not believe in gay marriage but think that civil unions could address the legal concerns fairly.

NateR
12-03-2010, 08:10 PM
Sort of OT but not really. Here's a "Dear Abby" letter I cut out of our newspaper; this was several years ago as we haven't taken a paper in a while. It's also the only time I ever cut something out and pinned it up on my bulletin-board wall.

That's a nice story but it's not really relevant to the discussion here. Are there kind and compassionate homosexuals? Of course. Can married couples be selfish jerks? Yes. But you can't use the actions of this woman's one gay child to characterize all gay couples any more than you can use the actions of her three straight children to characterize all heterosexual married couples.

TENNESSEAN
12-03-2010, 11:02 PM
i got gay neighbours. i told them their christmas lights looked trashy, so they took them all down.:) bad thing was i come home late form work and they had put them all on my house:w00t: my house was lite up like a rainbow. so when they went to sleep i wrapped their cars up with the same lights. i got the coolest neighbors ever:) sorry off subject

flo
12-03-2010, 11:42 PM
That's a nice story but it's not really relevant to the discussion here. Are there kind and compassionate homosexuals? Of course. Can married couples be selfish jerks? Yes. But you can't use the actions of this woman's one gay child to characterize all gay couples any more than you can use the actions of her three straight children to characterize all heterosexual married couples.
You make a good point, Nate; no, my post really isn't relevant in that sense but the letter was very touching to me and I thought someone else might see it in the same light. Yes, there are good and bad people of all ethnicities, sexual persuasions, religions, etc., etc. But, just speaking for myself, I found I was very hard-hearted on this issue and realized I didn't want to be.

Anyway, interesting discussion.

TENNESSEAN
12-04-2010, 03:32 AM
A will and power of attorney does more than this bill. The state, feds or family has no say in your personal business. If you chose to live an alternative lifestyle that's your choice. Get a will and POA to a sure your wishes are followed after death or in the case you cannot care for your self. If these horrible things are happening its because people have not planed their estate not because a state does not recognize a civil union. Caveman is right this is a complete waste of valuable time.

This law is what I call baby step politics it does nothing except get them 1 step closer to what the really want.

Flo you didn't like my story?:laugh:

TexasRN
12-04-2010, 11:16 AM
i got gay neighbours. i told them their christmas lights looked trashy, so they took them all down.:) bad thing was i come home late form work and they had put them all on my house:w00t: my house was lite up like a rainbow. so when they went to sleep i wrapped their cars up with the same lights. i got the coolest neighbors ever:) sorry off subject


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

That's awesome!


~Amy

J.B.
12-04-2010, 11:26 AM
i got gay neighbours. i told them their christmas lights looked trashy, so they took them all down.:) bad thing was i come home late form work and they had put them all on my house:w00t: my house was lite up like a rainbow. so when they went to sleep i wrapped their cars up with the same lights. i got the coolest neighbors ever:) sorry off subject

That is frickin hilarious :laugh:

flo
12-04-2010, 05:52 PM
A will and power of attorney does more than this bill. The state, feds or family has no say in your personal business. If you chose to live an alternative lifestyle that's your choice. Get a will and POA to a sure your wishes are followed after death or in the case you cannot care for your self. If these horrible things are happening its because people have not planed their estate not because a state does not recognize a civil union. Caveman is right this is a complete waste of valuable time.

This law is what I call baby step politics it does nothing except get them 1 step closer to what the really want.

Flo you didn't like my story?:laugh:
Tennessean, it was EPIC!!! http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/epicbeardman-1.gif

:laugh:

NateR
12-04-2010, 10:32 PM
A will and power of attorney does more than this bill. The state, feds or family has no say in your personal business. If you chose to live an alternative lifestyle that's your choice. Get a will and POA to a sure your wishes are followed after death or in the case you cannot care for your self. If these horrible things are happening its because people have not planed their estate not because a state does not recognize a civil union. Caveman is right this is a complete waste of valuable time.

Exactly, if they really are committed to each other, then they will have taken care of this beforehand. This law is completely unnecessary and the real goal here is to ultimately legalize gay marriages across the country.

But once the gays get the "right" to marry, then what are they going to go after next? They might think that marriage is going to make them happy, but it won't. They are living an unnatural and perverse lifestyle that completely violates the moral laws that GOD created for our benefit. Nothing is going to make them happy until they choose to abandon the gay lifestyle.

Tyburn
12-04-2010, 11:40 PM
A will and power of attorney does more than this bill. The state, feds or family has no say in your personal business. If you chose to live an alternative lifestyle that's your choice. Get a will and POA to a sure your wishes are followed after death or in the case you cannot care for your self.

I dont trust that.

I dont trust my Will to be followed to the letter....and I dont even know what a power of attorny is...is it the executer of the will?? We might be limited in this country to who that can be...I expect, by default it goes to next of kin...well if your legal next of kin is a family member because you havent got a civil union..

You see how pointless that will becomes? The executer becomes a family member, who may not honour your estate being shared or given to the partner who they dont like.

I mean I have an ICOD file...but I bet my parents wouldnt bother to actually DO what it says to do, in the event. I just cant see them ever signing into forums, or facebook, or anything like that...I suspect they would think that it really doesnt matter...after all, they dont understand the importance and value I might place on friends, who are just electronic text to them, and who they know I havent read

Thankfully...I'm not interested in getting a partner...so I dont have that problem, but from past experiences, it WOULD cause a problem if I did, I know, because I have had a partner in the past who was long term and came into contact with my parents.

You have to also remember, its even harder then familial personal religious theology...My Father works in and for a local church...there would be immense pressure on him after I had gone, to pretend, not unlike some on this forum have done, that the issue didnt really exist, or can be burried, or was a foolish choice that must not reflect on the entire family. It would also be a time of grief...so if ever tensions will be hot on issues such as what to do with the left overs noone wants to acknowledge arose...then would be the time...and of course being dead, my voice, and my point of view would have been silenced...how long before they choose to put words in my mouth, or project their own views onto me? Not long...and it wouldnt necc be deliberate or malicious...I dont mean to make my family out to be a mean and uncaring bunch...but I cant trust them to follow my orders, that would possibly dissagree with their moral code without my physical presence being able to enforce it.

NateR
12-04-2010, 11:47 PM
I dont trust that.

I dont trust my Will to be followed to the letter....and I dont even know what a power of attorny is...is it the executer of the will?? We might be limited in this country to who that can be...I expect, by default it goes to next of kin...well if your legal next of kin is a family member because you havent got a civil union..

You see how pointless that will becomes? The executer becomes a family member, who may not honour your estate being shared or given to the partner who they dont like.

I mean I have an ICOD file...but I bet my parents wouldnt bother to actually DO what it says to do, in the event. I just cant see them ever signing into forums, or facebook, or anything like that...I suspect they would think that it really doesnt matter...after all, they dont understand the importance and value I might place on friends, who are just electronic text to them, and who they know I havent read

Thankfully...I'm not interested in getting a partner...so I dont have that problem, but from past experiences, it WOULD cause a problem if I did, I know, because I have had a partner in the past who was long term and came into contact with my parents.

You have to also remember, its even harder then familial personal religious theology...My Father works in and for a local church...there would be immense pressure on him after I had gone, to pretend, not unlike some on this forum have done, that the issue didnt really exist, or can be burried, or was a foolish choice that must not reflect on the entire family. It would also be a time of grief...so if ever tensions will be hot on issues such as what to do with the left overs noone wants to acknowledge arose...then would be the time...and of course being dead, my voice, and my point of view would have been silenced...how long before they choose to put words in my mouth, or project their own views onto me? Not long...and it wouldnt necc be deliberate or malicious...I dont mean to make my family out to be a mean and uncaring bunch...but I cant trust them to follow my orders, that would possibly dissagree with their moral code without my physical presence being able to enforce it.

Maybe you should educate yourself on what a power of attorney is before you dismiss it. Once you give someone full power of attorney, that's it. Nothing trumps that.

Tyburn
12-05-2010, 12:04 AM
Maybe you should educate yourself on what a power of attorney is before you dismiss it. Once you give someone full power of attorney, that's it. Nothing trumps that.

In England, Power of Attorney seems to only relate to legal and business issues whilst the person is alive...but when they become mentally incompetant, or as an advocate for them at any time.

They cant represent in a court of law though

They dont seem to apply to Executors of Wills...which is the person who is responsible for following the will...In other words...our countries differ on this point.

What might be true for you in the US, isnt true for me in the UK

NateR
12-05-2010, 12:16 AM
In England, Power of Attorney seems to only relate to legal and business issues whilst the person is alive...but when they become mentally incompetant, or as an advocate for them at any time.

They cant represent in a court of law though

They dont seem to apply to Executors of Wills...which is the person who is responsible for following the will...In other words...our countries differ on this point.

What might be true for you in the US, isnt true for me in the UK

In America, you choose who you want to be executor of your will. The courts will only pick one for you if you haven't already designated one for yourself.

Tyburn
12-05-2010, 03:36 PM
In America, you choose who you want to be executor of your will. The courts will only pick one for you if you haven't already designated one for yourself.

In England I think they have designated courts that decide on the legitamacy of a will if contested, and I think, though I'm not positive...that they can, or usually do defer to next of kin. (which would be family, outside of a Civil Union context if the deceased is not part of one)

Like I say...i'm not an expert in it...because ive never needed to investigate properly...I dont have a partner, I have no dependants...so it doesnt bother me. But I could understand for one who had either, how it would be a big deal.

CAVEMAN
12-06-2010, 04:16 PM
Question for Tyburn and Flo:

Would the God of the Bible endorse civil unions?

Tyburn
12-06-2010, 04:32 PM
Question for Tyburn and Flo:

Would the God of the Bible endorse civil unions?

Endorse in what sence?

Not Sacrementally speaking...but under free will, he will permit such unions to exist.

Niether of us have pretended that Civil Unions are Equatable to Marriages.

CAVEMAN
12-06-2010, 04:45 PM
Endorse in what sence?

Not Sacrementally speaking...but under free will, he will permit such unions to exist.

Niether of us have pretended that Civil Unions are Equatable to Marriages.

He would not endorse it period! Neither should our state government!

Tyburn
12-06-2010, 05:24 PM
He would not endorse it period! Neither should our state government!

He endorses Justice, and he respects an individuals decision.

It is not Just, if you have lived your whole life with someone your family dont like, and they throw him out with the garbage upon your death.

He will not Sanctify a Civil Union...but for your information, he wont Sanctify a marriage unless the two people in it are both Christian...and there are far more non christians getting married...perhaps your state should not endorse marriage for non Christians??

Because He would not endorse that!!

flo
12-06-2010, 06:35 PM
Question for Tyburn and Flo:

Would the God of the Bible endorse civil unions?

I don't know, Caveman. I'm just giving my opinion which is not important in the larger scheme of things, it just means something to me.

I could ask in return, if Jesus was walking the earth with us right now, would he have love and compassion for gay people? I think to myself, of course he would. Most here are much more knowledgeable about the bible than I am which is why I try not to comment on the Christianity threads. But I believe in a forgiving and loving God who embraces all of us, with all our flaws and failings.

This is simply a civil matter, in my opinion.

Tyburn
12-06-2010, 07:16 PM
This is simply a civil matter, in my opinion.

EXACTLY my point.

We know GOD wont bless homosexual marriages...but a Civil Contract is NOT a Marriage....and thats the crux of my point here...this isnt about love, it isnt about forcing churches to do anything at all...its about the state recognising a pact between two people of the same gender that allows such things as next of kin rights to one or other of the people.

What annoys me about the Strong Republicans on this Forum, is that they absolutely LOVE to come down like a tonne of bricks on anything remotely homosexual...but they ignore, and never comment on other sins...which are just as pressing. I'll give you an example

They would say its NOT okay for a homosexual couple to gain legal rights of next of kin under a legal contract, because it threatens their insitution of marriage...which is bollox...nothing has the power to threaten a Sacrement...an outlaw of Christianity completely, removes not a jot of the blessings GOD is capable of. They say this time and time and time again, over and over and over.

BUT these same people are absolutely fine with Greed and Lies. Its okay for half their subprime population to live off credit whether they can pay it back or not, Its alright for the banks to basically buy into that lie, and extend their own greed...thats fine...whatsmore, even after a western world financial collapse...its okay for their banks to keep doing what they were before, without being regulated by the Authorities...and its somehow wrong for their Government to try and stop the damage done.

The ONLY person who has EVER spoken about this to a great degree is ME.

Why is it alright for someone to lie, cheat, be greedy....does the GOD of the Bible Endorse what your banking insitutions, have done??? The audacity, is startling...and I tried to make the subtle hint some time ago...when I asked the key question WHY is you State in the red to begin with?

Now I shall say it less subtly. Perhaps if you guys had put more value on the sins like greed, like telling lies, like living a life you cant afford...and perhaps if you had preached against THAT from your pulpits, and on your forums...then what happened with your financial system wouldnt have happened.

Perhaps you will note, that a Civil Union for gays does nothing, other then possibly confirm that two people are living in sin. Well...those other sins, which all of you have failed, and still do fail, to notice the continuing gravity of, those sins have ruined the lives of MILLIONS across the entire western world.

So...Yeah Caveman...your right...your State should be looking at how to work itself out of debt...but its a pity they allowed the sins of others in their midst to get so bad that it sucked them down in the first place. Perhaps if you and all of yours, your state, the people on here, the whole of christondom bothered to persecute ALL SIN, rather then just a small amount which doesnt even effect you personally...then your State might not need to address its debt problem period.

The lesson here people, is that we all fall short...and whilst American Republicans are mighty fine at pointing out the sins of others...they really should have the spirit of humility that would allow them to see how their own short commings have also done a lot of damage that GOD wouldnt condone.

If you are going to condemn sin...condemn all of it...or please shut up and let GOD deal with it...because he will have harsh words to say to all parties come the end of time. People have choices to make. GOD permits choice...but never be fearful that the choice of any human, or human institution can distroy GOD or his Sacrements. Have the courage to condemn ALL who need to be condemned, or be Silent.

Bonnie
12-06-2010, 07:20 PM
Endorse in what sence?

Not Sacrementally speaking...but under free will, he will permit such unions to exist.

Niether of us have pretended that Civil Unions are Equatable to Marriages.

As in the Sodom and Gomorrah sense I would imagine.

Endorse is to approve of or to support something or someone. GOD doesn't endorse same-sex unions. Just because GOD gives a person free will to choose right or wrong does not mean if the person chooses to do wrong that God approves of or supports that act. GOD tells us not to sin. Man chooses to sin.


He endorses Justice, and he respects an individuals decision.

It is not Just, if you have lived your whole life with someone your family dont like, and they throw him out with the garbage upon your death.

He will not Sanctify a Civil Union...but for your information, he wont Sanctify a marriage unless the two people in it are both Christian...and there are far more non christians getting married...perhaps your state should not endorse marriage for non Christians??

Because He would not endorse that!!

Who's justice does He endorse? Man's? And are you talking about free will again when you say he "respects" an individuals decision?

GOD doesn't endorse "wrong" period! We are the ones who are doing that!

Bonnie
12-06-2010, 07:36 PM
EXACTLY my point.

We know GOD wont bless homosexual marriages...but a Civil Contract is NOT a Marriage....and thats the crux of my point here...this isnt about love, it isnt about forcing churches to do anything at all...its about the state recognising a pact between two people of the same gender that allows such things as next of kin rights to one or other of the people.

What annoys me about the Strong Republicans on this Forum, is that they absolutely LOVE to come down like a tonne of bricks on anything remotely homosexual...but they ignore, and never comment on other sins...which are just as pressing. I'll give you an example

They would say its NOT okay for a homosexual couple to gain legal rights of next of kin under a legal contract, because it threatens their insitution of marriage...which is bollox...nothing has the power to threaten a Sacrement...an outlaw of Christianity completely, removes not a jot of the blessings GOD is capable of. They say this time and time and time again, over and over and over.

BUT these same people are absolutely fine with Greed and Lies. Its okay for half their subprime population to live off credit whether they can pay it back or not, Its alright for the banks to basically buy into that lie, and extend their own greed...thats fine...whatsmore, even after a western world financial collapse...its okay for their banks to keep doing what they were before, without being regulated by the Authorities...and its somehow wrong for their Government to try and stop the damage done.

The ONLY person who has EVER spoken about this to a great degree is ME.

Why is it alright for someone to lie, cheat, be greedy....does the GOD of the Bible Endorse what your banking insitutions, have done??? The audacity, is startling...and I tried to make the subtle hint some time ago...when I asked the key question WHY is you State in the red to begin with?

Now I shall say it less subtly. Perhaps if you guys had put more value on the sins like greed, like telling lies, like living a life you cant afford...and perhaps if you had preached against THAT from your pulpits, and on your forums...then what happened with your financial system wouldnt have happened.

Perhaps you will note, that a Civil Union for gays does nothing, other then possibly confirm that two people are living in sin. Well...those other sins, which all of you have failed, and still do fail, to notice the continuing gravity of, those sins have ruined the lives of MILLIONS across the entire western world.

So...Yeah Caveman...your right...your State should be looking at how to work itself out of debt...but its a pity they allowed the sins of others in their midst to get so bad that it sucked them down in the first place. Perhaps if you and all of yours, your state, the people on here, the whole of christondom bothered to persecute ALL SIN, rather then just a small amount which doesnt even effect you personally...then your State might not need to address its debt problem period.

The lesson here people, is that we all fall short...and whilst American Republicans are mighty fine at pointing out the sins of others...they really should have the spirit of humility that would allow them to see how their own short commings have also done a lot of damage that GOD wouldnt condone.

If you are going to condemn sin...condemn all of it...or please shut up and let GOD deal with it...because he will have harsh words to say to all parties come the end of time. People have choices to make. GOD permits choice...but never be fearful that the choice of any human, or human institution can distroy GOD or his Sacrements. Have the courage to condemn ALL who need to be condemned, or be Silent.

Dave, I agree with what you are saying, "sin is sin". But our sins do affect each other so I can't agree with, "which doesn't effect you personally".

But, I agree, GOD will deal with it...ALL of it and us!

CAVEMAN
12-06-2010, 09:06 PM
I don't know, Caveman. I'm just giving my opinion which is not important in the larger scheme of things, it just means something to me.

I could ask in return, if Jesus was walking the earth with us right now, would he have love and compassion for gay people? I think to myself, of course he would. Most here are much more knowledgeable about the bible than I am which is why I try not to comment on the Christianity threads. But I believe in a forgiving and loving God who embraces all of us, with all our flaws and failings.

This is simply a civil matter, in my opinion.

And I agree, but HE would not endorse their sin either. Civil unions will be nothing but a stepping stone for gays and lesbians to change the definition of marriage. They just don't want to be accepted, they want to be embraced.

CAVEMAN
12-06-2010, 09:34 PM
He endorses Justice, and he respects an individuals decision.

It is not Just, if you have lived your whole life with someone your family dont like, and they throw him out with the garbage upon your death.

He will not Sanctify a Civil Union...but for your information, he wont Sanctify a marriage unless the two people in it are both Christian...and there are far more non christians getting married...perhaps your state should not endorse marriage for non Christians??

Because He would not endorse that!!

True, but we are not debating being unequally yoked. We're talking about a form of sexual immorality, that is not only a sin against God, but a sin against HIS creation!

Dave, our government is twisted not just on the state level, but federal. Our judicial branch of government can decide to throw out the 10 commandments from being displayed on the wall of a courtroom in Alabama because of how some people interpret the meaning of seperation of church/state. Yet, our Federal government will leave it to the states to approve a moral issue like civil unions. But I have gotten off the point here..........the bottom line is there are so many other important issues are government needs to be spending their efforts on and Civil unions is not one of them!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly believe we are witnessing the financial and moral decay of Western civilization.

Neezar
12-06-2010, 10:02 PM
He endorses Justice, and he respects an individuals decision.

It is not Just, if you have lived your whole life with someone your family dont like, and they throw him out with the garbage upon your death.

He will not Sanctify a Civil Union...but for your information, he wont Sanctify a marriage unless the two people in it are both Christian...and there are far more non christians getting married...perhaps your state should not endorse marriage for non Christians??

Because He would not endorse that!!

Where did you get that idea? :huh:

Mark
12-06-2010, 11:25 PM
I don't know, Caveman. I'm just giving my opinion which is not important in the larger scheme of things, it just means something to me.

I could ask in return, if Jesus was walking the earth with us right now, would he have love and compassion for gay people? I think to myself, of course he would. Most here are much more knowledgeable about the bible than I am which is why I try not to comment on the Christianity threads. But I believe in a forgiving and loving God who embraces all of us, with all our flaws and failings.

This is simply a civil matter, in my opinion.

If Jesus was walking the earth with us right now, would he have love and compassion for gay people? Jesus is about love. I think he would say the same thing to the woman in John 8.
John 8
1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At sunrise he arrived in the temple courtyard again. All the people gathered around him there. He sat down to teach them.

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman. She had been caught in adultery. They made her stand in front of the group. 4 They said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught having sex with a man who was not her husband. 5 In the Law, Moses commanded us to kill such women by throwing stones at them. Now what do you say?" 6 They were trying to trap Jesus with that question. They wanted to have a reason to bring charges against him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.

7 They kept asking him questions. So he stood up and said to them, "Has any one of you not sinned? Then you be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 He bent down again and wrote on the ground.

9 Those who heard what he had said began to go away. They left one at a time, the older ones first. Soon only Jesus was left. The woman was still standing there.

10 Jesus stood up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Hasn't anyone found you guilty?"

11 "No one, sir," she said.

"Then I don't find you guilty either," Jesus said. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Mark
12-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Dave, I agree with what you are saying, "sin is sin". But our sins do affect each other so I can't agree with, "which doesn't effect you personally".

But, I agree, GOD will deal with it...ALL of it and us!

Bonnie, I agree with ahat you are saying, "sin is sin".
This sin just so happens to be punishable by death.

Leviticus 20
13 " 'Suppose a man has sex with another man as he would have sex with a woman. I hate what they have done. They must be put to death. Anything that happens to them will be their own fault.

TENNESSEAN
12-07-2010, 12:09 AM
If Jesus was walking the earth with us right now, would he have love and compassion for gay people? Jesus is about love. I think he would say the same thing to the woman in John 8.
John 8
1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At sunrise he arrived in the temple courtyard again. All the people gathered around him there. He sat down to teach them.

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman. She had been caught in adultery. They made her stand in front of the group. 4 They said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught having sex with a man who was not her husband. 5 In the Law, Moses commanded us to kill such women by throwing stones at them. Now what do you say?" 6 They were trying to trap Jesus with that question. They wanted to have a reason to bring charges against him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.

7 They kept asking him questions. So he stood up and said to them, "Has any one of you not sinned? Then you be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 He bent down again and wrote on the ground.

9 Those who heard what he had said began to go away. They left one at a time, the older ones first. Soon only Jesus was left. The woman was still standing there.

10 Jesus stood up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Hasn't anyone found you guilty?"

11 "No one, sir," she said.

"Then I don't find you guilty either," Jesus said. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Ding Ding Ding We have a winner.

NateR
12-07-2010, 02:03 AM
Jesus said. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

That's really the key here isn't it? Would Jesus have compassion on a homosexual who was suffering? Sure, but He would also command that person to leave the homosexual lifestyle forever. If that man refused, then he would have no place with Jesus. Just like the rich young ruler who refused to give up his earthly riches or the Pharisees who refused to give up their traditions and self-righteousness. If that homosexual approached Jesus with the attitude of "This is how GOD made me, there is nothing wrong with me." Then that man shouldn't expect to receive anything from Christ.

Mark
12-07-2010, 02:51 AM
Did anyone notice that only Democrats voted yes?
How can some people vote Democrate and call themself a christian? Looks like im voting all Republican again!

NateR
12-07-2010, 03:14 AM
Did anyone notice that only Democrats voted yes?
How can some people vote Democrate and call themself a christian? Looks like im voting all Republican again!

I've wondered that same thing for years. Many of the key Democrat political agendas are simply not compatible with Christianity.

Chuck
12-07-2010, 03:47 AM
BUT these same people are absolutely fine with Greed and Lies. Its okay for half their subprime population to live off credit whether they can pay it back or not, Its alright for the banks to basically buy into that lie, and extend their own greed...thats fine...whatsmore, even after a western world financial collapse...its okay for their banks to keep doing what they were before, without being regulated by the Authorities...and its somehow wrong for their Government to try and stop the damage done.

The ONLY person who has EVER spoken about this to a great degree is ME.



Don't flatter yourself Dave. That's one of the most ridiculous things you've ever written. I know you think you're the patron saint of all things gay, but you're not.

One of the biggest arguments on this board was based around me defending gay people and their choices so put away your superhero suit for now.... it's not needed just yet. :wink:

flo
12-07-2010, 03:48 AM
Civil unions will be nothing but a stepping stone for gays and lesbians to change the definition of marriage.

Yes, that's what I am afraid may happen too. This is the slippery slope. I totally support the Defense of Marriage act.

That said, I still think a partner in a committed gay relationship should have inheritance and property rights, medical privileges accorded to family members, etc.

flo
12-07-2010, 03:51 AM
Mark #38 & Nate #41 both make good points. I appreciate the discussion here.

NateR
12-07-2010, 04:19 AM
a committed gay relationship

I would say that there is no such thing.

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 04:23 AM
I would say that there is no such thing.


I know several gay people that are committed to each other..

Right or wrong.. I would say that there are many gay people that stand with each other...

NateR
12-07-2010, 04:36 AM
I know several gay people that are committed to each other..

Right or wrong.. I would say that there are many gay people that stand with each other...

Committed as in not sleeping with other people and never will for the rest of their lives? That kind of committed?

Bonnie
12-07-2010, 04:47 AM
And I agree, but HE would not endorse their sin either. Civil unions will be nothing but a stepping stone for gays and lesbians to change the definition of marriage. They just don't want to be accepted, they want to be embraced.

I think you're right. It's about being legally and morally validated by society.

It's not just about gaining legal rights as a non-spouse and/or non-blood relation anymore as I believe this is what all this stemmed from originally years ago. It's become much more than that now.

flo
12-07-2010, 05:09 AM
I would say that there is no such thing.

Well, our neighbors (and friends) have been together for 17 years. I'd say that's pretty committed.

flo
12-07-2010, 05:10 AM
Committed as in not sleeping with other people and never will for the rest of their lives? That kind of committed?
Yes, I believe so. I mean, no one really knows what kind of relationship anyone has, other than their own.

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:23 AM
Well, our neighbors (and friends) have been together for 17 years. I'd say that's pretty committed.

Yes, I believe so. I mean, no one really knows what kind of relationship anyone has, other than their own.

Being together for 17 years and being monogamous are really two different things aren't they?

flo
12-07-2010, 07:44 AM
Being together for 17 years and being monogamous are really two different things aren't they?

Well, of course they are! But as I said, except for our own personal relationships, we don't really know what goes on in others lives.

I appreciate what you are saying, Nate.

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 12:10 PM
Committed as in not sleeping with other people and never will for the rest of their lives? That kind of committed?

exactly...

There is a guy I haved worked with for 9 years.. been with the same "partner" the whole time, they sport their "bands" and such..

I would hazzard a guess that gay couples are as likely to stay together as straight couples... what is the divorce rate again??

I have been with my wife for 12 years.. never cheated.. either of us.. so it would stand to reason that there is at least one gay couple.... "somewhere in the world"... that has the same record...

So do you/we judge these people by the least of them.. ("least" being by whatever scale we are using..) Or by the best of them...

Neezar
12-07-2010, 02:29 PM
exactly...

There is a guy I haved worked with for 9 years.. been with the same "partner" the whole time, they sport their "bands" and such..

I would hazzard a guess that gay couples are as likely to stay together as straight couples... what is the divorce rate again??

I have been with my wife for 12 years.. never cheated.. either of us.. so it would stand to reason that there is at least one gay couple.... "somewhere in the world"... that has the same record...

So do you/we judge these people by the least of them.. ("least" being by whatever scale we are using..) Or by the best of them...

Hm, maybe I am confused. But are we attempting to judge anyone here?

Neezar
12-07-2010, 02:36 PM
He endorses Justice, and he respects an individuals decision.

It is not Just, if you have lived your whole life with someone your family dont like, and they throw him out with the garbage upon your death.

He will not Sanctify a Civil Union...but for your information, he wont Sanctify a marriage unless the two people in it are both Christian...and there are far more non christians getting married...perhaps your state should not endorse marriage for non Christians??

Because He would not endorse that!!

I still can't get my head around this. Where did you get this idea?

Anyone else agree with this statement? :mellow:

NateR
12-07-2010, 02:52 PM
exactly...

There is a guy I haved worked with for 9 years.. been with the same "partner" the whole time, they sport their "bands" and such..

But does that mean they are monogamous? Or is this the modern definition of "committed relationship" that really just means "I'm sticking around until I'm no longer feeling personally fulfilled by this person, then I'm going to look for someone else"?

Maybe you are just assuming the best because you really want to believe this liberal propaganda of homosexual relationships being just as healthy and beneficial as heterosexual relationships. Or maybe these guys are just liars.

Jesus told us that a bad tree could not bring forth good fruit. So a relationship rooted in immorality at its very core will NEVER be a truly healthy relationship. NEVER.

I would hazzard a guess that gay couples are as likely to stay together as straight couples... what is the divorce rate again??

Translation: you only believe it because you want to believe it.

I have been with my wife for 12 years.. never cheated.. either of us..

That's great. :cool:

so it would stand to reason that there is at least one gay couple.... "somewhere in the world"... that has the same record...

No it only "stands to reason" because of your desire to believe in this particular lie.

So do you/we judge these people by the least of them..

You tell me, seeing as how you seem to be so quick to cite the current divorce rate as a judgment on all heterosexual marriages.

Or by the best of them...

We're talking about men and women who have left the proper use of their bodies and revel in an unnatural act that GOD hates. Even by Evolutionary standards it's a worthless relationship because it doesn't produce any children. There is no "best of them."

What it all boils down to is, comparing the "best" (by worldly standards) gay relationships against the worst heterosexual relationships is not the foundation for an intelligent discussion.

Mark
12-07-2010, 03:26 PM
I still can't get my head around this. Where did you get this idea?

Anyone else agree with this statement? :mellow:

Dave, are you trying to say that it is a sin?

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 03:35 PM
But does that mean they are monogamous? Or is this the modern definition of "committed relationship" that really just means "I'm sticking around until I'm no longer feeling personally fulfilled by this person, then I'm going to look for someone else"?.

Well.. that's pretty much all releationships.. at least in the lst 100 years or so.. so are you saying that gays are worse cause they do the same things that straight ("normal") people do as well? Are you making a distinction between the two?



Maybe you are just assuming the best because you really want to believe this liberal propaganda of homosexual relationships being just as healthy and beneficial as heterosexual relationships. Or maybe these guys are just liars.


wow... maybe you are just looking for something wrong with a gay couple, aside from being gay... I am far from "beliving the liberal hype".. but I do know from experience...


Jesus told us that a bad tree could not bring forth good fruit. So a relationship rooted in immorality at its very core will NEVER be a truly healthy relationship. NEVER..

And the difference is beliving where the immorality is. And that applies to all releationships.. parents/kids.. familse and such.


Translation: you only believe it because you want to believe it.


No.. translation.. From my personal experience with various gay people and couples.. they have the same issues as me and my wife.. and anyone else in the world..


That's great. :cool:


Now.. I have looked at other women... I guess you could say "lusted in my heart".. does that make me immoral? Or just a sinner..?


No it only "stands to reason" because of your desire to believe in this particular lie.

Why is it a lie? You do not think that it's possible that a gay couple can be happy? I don't get that Nate.. I really don't.
You belive that a man walked on water.. rose from the dead.. and the parting of the ocean.. but you do not think that a gay couple can be happy.



You tell me, seeing as how you seem to be so quick to cite the current divorce rate as a judgment on all heterosexual marriages.


Last I saw.. nation wide (US).. something close to 36%.. that leaves 64% doing fine.. Do you call a marriage a "committed relationship" or "monogamous"


We're talking about men and women who have left the proper use of their bodies and revel in an unnatural act that GOD hates. Even by Evolutionary standards it's a worthless relationship because it doesn't produce any children. There is no "best of them.".


God hates?? I don't know that I belive that would be the best way to describe it.. but I see where you come from.. I don't agree, but I understand.

Evolutionary?? There is ALOT of what the human race does that is worthless..


What it all boils down to is, comparing the "best" (by worldly standards) gay relationships against the worst heterosexual relationships is not the foundation for an intelligent discussion.

Compare a hetro releationship.. where there is abuse, lies, leaving the man/woman.. with kids to fend for themselves.. to a gay releationship that is full of compassion and caring, love and openness..

Ask the woman that is about to be killed by the man that she has a restraining order against.. and has lost teeth.. and wears longsleve shirts.. is that the best releationship..

Ask the other woman.. that has their partner with them.. through good and bad times.. fights like crazy and makes up.. thinks about something.."Ah.. I have to tell her about this tonight..".. if that is a bad releationship..

rearnakedchoke
12-07-2010, 03:37 PM
Endorse in what sence?

Not Sacrementally speaking...but under free will, he will permit such unions to exist.

Niether of us have pretended that Civil Unions are Equatable to Marriages.

Like He permitted Sodom & Gommorah to exist?

Mark
12-07-2010, 03:52 PM
Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 03:59 PM
Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

Agreed..

But since these people exist.. and our God's creation..

how should they be addressed?

1. Should they get the same rights as Adam and Eve?

2. Can they be "as happy" as any other couple??


1. Don't see why not. (please note that I don't say marriage)

2. From my personal experience... the ones I know have the same issues as a normal couple.. so using that as a measuring point.. sure..

Mark
12-07-2010, 04:00 PM
God hates?? I don't know that I belive that would be the best way to describe it.. but I see where you come from.. I don't agree, but I understand.

Bonnie, I agree with ahat you are saying, "sin is sin".
This sin just so happens to be punishable by death.

Leviticus 20
13 " 'Suppose a man has sex with another man as he would have sex with a woman. I hate what they have done. They must be put to death. Anything that happens to them will be their own fault.

That is what the Bible says.

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 04:05 PM
That is what the Bible says.

Fair enough.. Never remember seeing this in the past... and I missed it earlier..

So we should hate gay people?

CAVEMAN
12-07-2010, 04:06 PM
I still can't get my head around this. Where did you get this idea?

Anyone else agree with this statement? :mellow:

I believe Dave was talking about a Christian being unequally yoked with a non-believer. Not sure where he got the notion that both have to be Christians.

Mark
12-07-2010, 04:08 PM
Agreed..

But since these people exist.. and our God's creation..

how should they be addressed?

1. Should they get the same rights as Adam and Eve?

2. Can they be "as happy" as any other couple??


1. Don't see why not. (please note that I don't say marriage)

2. From my personal experience... the ones I know have the same issues as a normal couple.. so using that as a measuring point.. sure..

I believe in what the Bible says. So I think that they should stop living that lifestyle. It was a sin and it always will be a sin, always. God does not change. I think our culture has changed. There is a gay couple on every TV show now adays. But that does not make it right. But sadly people change.
So what is your question anyway?

Mark
12-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Fair enough.. Never remember seeing this in the past... and I missed it earlier..

So we should hate gay people?

Jesus is about love. We should pray that they turn from there wicked ways.

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 04:14 PM
I believe in what the Bible says. So I think that they should stop living that lifestyle. It was a sin and it always will be a sin, always. God does not change. I think our culture has changed. There is a gay couple on every TV show now adays. But that does not make it right. But sadly people change.

Agree 100%


So what is your question anyway?


No real question.. I was wondering why some people think that gay people can't be in a happy commited releationship... doesn't make sense to me..

My question regarding your Bible quote...Leviticus 20/13.. so should we actively "hate" gay people.. do we silently pity their being cast from God?

Does "ignoring", not associating with them equate "hating". Should there be a "call to arms" against homosexuals?

Mark
12-07-2010, 04:19 PM
Agree 100%
No real question.. I was wondering why some people think that gay people can't be in a happy commited releationship... doesn't make sense to me..

Should I promote living a lifestyle of sin? Is that what god wants? Do you think Jesus would give them these rights?

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 04:28 PM
Should I promote living a lifestyle of sin? Is that what god wants? Do you think Jesus would give them these rights?

If you (any person) feels that something is a sin.. (homosexuality in this specific case).. is leaving them to their own devices, promoting it? Should we be on a pulpit talking about their damnation when we all have our own sins to deal with? Does God want us to "go after" the sinners.. when we are all sinners are selves? If you are saved.. don't we all commit a mydrid of sins each day that we need to atone for? To look for a sinner.. we just need to look in the mirror honestly..

Would Jesus give them these rights???

I would like to think so..

Basically Jesus said "I'm telling you the laws of my Father.. here they are.. do as you will..I am off to be with my Father.. but when I come back.. you better step!"

But I also belive in the "Grandfatherly" type of God.. a Vengeful... Wrathful God.. I still have issues with.

Mark
12-07-2010, 04:49 PM
If you (any person) feels that something is a sin.. (homosexuality in this specific case).. is leaving them to their own devices, promoting it? Should we be on a pulpit talking about their damnation when we all have our own sins to deal with? Does God want us to "go after" the sinners.. when we are all sinners are selves? If you are saved.. don't we all commit a mydrid of sins each day that we need to atone for? To look for a sinner.. we just need to look in the mirror honestly..

Yes I am a sinner, and could I say you are too? We all are. The differance is I try to live a life pleasing to God. My love for Jesus wants me to obey him.
Would Jesus give them these rights???

I would like to think so..
You are telling me God wants to promote a gay relationship?
Do you think homosexuality is a sin?

NateR
12-07-2010, 04:56 PM
My question regarding your Bible quote...Leviticus 20/13.. so should we actively "hate" gay people.. do we silently pity their being cast from God?

Does "ignoring", not associating with them equate "hating". Should there be a "call to arms" against homosexuals?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that GOD hates gay people. He hates the actions of the sinner, not the sinner.

Think about it like a parent with a child who is a drug addict. The parent can love their child while simultaneously hating the behavior that is causing so much misery and destruction in that child's life. How stupid would it be for that child to tell his/her parents, "If you really loved me you would accept my drug habits. If you don't accept them as normal and healthy, then you actually hate me"?

If you (any person) feels that something is a sin.. (homosexuality in this specific case).. is leaving them to their own devices, promoting it? Should we be on a pulpit talking about their damnation when we all have our own sins to deal with? Does God want us to "go after" the sinners.. when we are all sinners are selves? If you are saved.. don't we all commit a mydrid of sins each day that we need to atone for? To look for a sinner.. we just need to look in the mirror honestly..

If that was the case, then no one would be qualified to preach the Gospel, which creates a problem because we are all commanded to preach the Gospel.

If GOD required perfect, sinless people to spread His Word, then Jesus would have never left. Because no one else on earth is qualified.

However, once we are saved, then there is no more need to atone for daily sins. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was the one and only atonement for sin that was, is and ever will be necessary. But that atonement is only offered to those who believe and choose to make Jesus the Lord of their life. You can't do that if you willfully choose to live in a sin like homosexuality.

Would Jesus give them these rights???

I would like to think so..


No, He wouldn't. No matter what you would "like to think," the answer is clearly laid out in the Old Testament in black and white.

But I also belive in the "Grandfatherly" type of God..

The god you believe in doesn't exist. You either worship the true GOD of the Bible, or you worship a false god. We don't have to option to pick and choose which attributes of GOD's personality to believe in and then dismiss the stuff that makes us uncomfortable/frightened.

NateR
12-07-2010, 05:18 PM
Agreed..

But since these people exist.. and our God's creation..

how should they be addressed?

1. Should they get the same rights as Adam and Eve?

2. Can they be "as happy" as any other couple??


1. Don't see why not. (please note that I don't say marriage)

2. From my personal experience... the ones I know have the same issues as a normal couple.. so using that as a measuring point.. sure..

The people may be GOD's creation, but their sin is not. One of the greatest lies of this modern debate is that gay people are born gay, thus "God made them that way." That's absolutely ridiculous and there is no evidence whatsoever that can prove that. Even if there was evidence for it, it doesn't change the sinful nature of their behavior. We live in a sinful, fallen world. Meaning that our "natural" desires are corrupted. This is why we have to constantly fight against our natural desires if we are to have a true relationship with GOD.

As for the "rights" issue. What rights are gays missing in this country?

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 05:32 PM
You are telling me God wants to promote a gay relationship?
Do you think homosexuality is a sin?


No I do not think God wants to promote a gay relationship.. I don't think God promotes anything.. I think God watches and waits..

"Here are my words/wishes..(the Bible).. and then He waits to see what people will do with those words and His wishes...

Me personally?
Not being the biblical scholar that others are.. yes and no..

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that GOD hates gay people. He hates the actions of the sinner, not the sinner.

Think about it like a parent with a child who is a drug addict. The parent can love their child while simultaneously hating the behavior that is causing so much misery and destruction in that child's life. How stupid would it be for that child to tell his/her parents, "If you really loved me you would accept my drug habits. If you don't accept them as normal and healthy, then you actually hate me"?.



Fair enough..



If that was the case, then no one would be qualified to preach the Gospel, which creates a problem because we are all commanded to preach the Gospel.

which is part of my religious dilemma


If GOD required perfect, sinless people to spread His Word, then Jesus would have never left. Because no one else on earth is qualified.

Would you also say that he never would have came?

However, once we are saved, then there is no more need to atone for daily sins. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was the one and only atonement for sin that was, is and ever will be necessary. But that atonement is only offered to those who believe and choose to make Jesus the Lord of their life. You can't do that if you willfully choose to live in a sin like homosexuality.

What about the other sins that we all commit? No need to atone those?



No, He wouldn't. No matter what you would "like to think," the answer is clearly laid out in the Old Testament in black and white.

What about the New Testament?


The god you believe in doesn't exist. You either worship the true GOD of the Bible, or you worship a false god. We don't have to option to pick and choose which attributes of GOD's personality to believe in and then dismiss the stuff that makes us uncomfortable/frightened.

wow... Nate do you realize what you are saying?

I don't know that I could ever agree with that..

What about those that have never learned of the Bible?

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 05:44 PM
1) True, but we are not debating being unequally yoked. We're talking about a form of sexual immorality, that is not only a sin against God, but a sin against HIS creation!

2) Dave, our government is twisted not just on the state level, but federal. Our judicial branch of government can decide to throw out the 10 commandments from being displayed on the wall of a courtroom in Alabama because of how some people interpret the meaning of seperation of church/state. Yet, our Federal government will leave it to the states to approve a moral issue like civil unions. But I have gotten off the point here..........the bottom line is

3) there are so many other important issues are government needs to be spending their efforts on and Civil unions is not one of them!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly believe we are witnessing the financial and moral decay of Western civilization.

1) No we are not talking about a form of sexual immorality...we are talking about a legal contract.

2) every insitution is fallen. That doesnt make it special.

3) and just where was you vocalization at the financial decay bit exactly?

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 05:48 PM
Where did you get that idea? :huh:

Because of what Marriage actually is. Marriage is a mirror of Christ and His Church, and ultimately the union between man and GOD. Its a purely Christian Rite. It is a Blessing GOD bestows on his people.

So anyone who is non Christian doesnt Qualify, and, incidently that means they are never truely married, which means when they have sex...guess what...its outside of wedlock also..

because Marriage has nothing to do with a ceremony, and nothing to do with a legal contract, It cant be threatened or distroyed, because it is a gift from GOD

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 05:52 PM
The people may be GOD's creation, but their sin is not. One of the greatest lies of this modern debate is that gay people are born gay, thus "God made them that way." That's absolutely ridiculous and there is no evidence whatsoever that can prove that. Even if there was evidence for it, it doesn't change the sinful nature of their behavior. We live in a sinful, fallen world. Meaning that our "natural" desires are corrupted. This is why we have to constantly fight against our natural desires if we are to have a true relationship with GOD.

ok, not touching the nature/nurture issue...

But if God did make gay people gay.. and then says you can't be the way I made you.. it seems kinda harsh to hold their actions against them...


As for the "rights" issue. What rights are gays missing in this country?

Does it matter?

But many are not allowed to be part of their partners life at the end.. property, monies, debts, and other things such as that, they are not able to receive upon the death of another.. unless specifically written that way in a will.. so say there is a car accident.. and a person didn't have a will.. .. the monies, and other items would go to the next legal relative.. as maybe opposed to the actual wishes of the deceased.. where as if they could have a legal union.. they woudln't have to worry about such things..

That's just for starters.. some can not enjoy the benfits of joint health insurance.. from the others employer..

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 05:54 PM
Bonnie, I agree with ahat you are saying, "sin is sin".
This sin just so happens to be punishable by death.

Leviticus 20
13 " 'Suppose a man has sex with another man as he would have sex with a woman. I hate what they have done. They must be put to death. Anything that happens to them will be their own fault.

The wages of any Sin equate to eternal Death Mark.

There are many countries on this planet that still DO hang or stone homosexuals. Places like Iran for example.

But for your information...once again...Homosexuality is not the only thing punishable by death is it Mark? So is adultory...and Jesus says any person who has ever looked at another with lust has committed adultory.

Its the VERY FACT, you guys dont see this bigger issues that implicates ALL OF US rather then some of us, which is what is disturbing about the Christianity displayed on this forum when it comes to the likes of this

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:00 PM
Don't flatter yourself Dave. That's one of the most ridiculous things you've ever written. I know you think you're the patron saint of all things gay, but you're not.

One of the biggest arguments on this board was based around me defending gay people and their choices so put away your superhero suit for now.... it's not needed just yet. :wink:

I said the only person to talk about THE BANKING ISSUE is me.

lets look at what you quoted again shall we.

BUT these same people are absolutely fine with Greed and Lies. Its okay for half their subprime population to live off credit whether they can pay it back or not, Its alright for the banks to basically buy into that lie, and extend their own greed...thats fine...whatsmore, even after a western world financial collapse...its okay for their banks to keep doing what they were before, without being regulated by the Authorities...and its somehow wrong for their Government to try and stop the damage done.

The ONLY person who has EVER spoken about this to a great degree is ME.

:dunce: you have to actually read :duh:

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:02 PM
Would you also say that he never would have came?

If there was ever such a thing as a perfect, sinless person after the Fall in the Garden of Eden, then Jesus Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection would be pointless.

What about the other sins that we all commit? No need to atone those?

You're missing my point. All sins have been atoned for. However, we still need to admit to those sins and repent of them. To repent of a sin not only means that we have to earnestly try to stop committing it (obviously some sins have a greater hold on us than others), but we have to actively try to do good as well.

Can a homosexual who refuses to acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin be saved? That's a tough one to answer. My first response would be no, because there is no spirit of repentance there. But I'm not ready to just come right out and say no, because we're not required to "clean ourselves" up before we qualify for salvation through Jesus. Plus, I think there is a difference between acknowledging that something is wrong, while being trapped in that lifestyle out of pure human weakness, and approaching GOD with the attitude of "I don't care what you say, there's nothing wrong with me so I'm not going to change." Anyone who goes to GOD with the latter attitude cannot ever hope to receive forgiveness or salvation.

What about the New Testament?

The New Testament doesn't nullify the Old Testament. In fact, without the Old Testament, the New Testament is meaningless.

wow... Nate do you realize what you are saying?

I don't know that I could ever agree with that..

What about those that have never learned of the Bible?

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Meaning that EVERYONE and EVERYTHING on this planet has an innate knowledge of GOD. And GOD will reveal Himself to anyone who earnestly searches for Him. So, there is no such thing as "I didn't know."

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:06 PM
I would say that there is no such thing.

...and how would you know?

to hear someone from a Military background say something as dumb and hate filled as that is sickening.

Do you not understand committment can exist outside of a male/female bond? Are you not committed to your friends? were you not committed to whatever brotherhood you were part of in the forces? Were those bonds easy to break, or meaningless?

My God, you hang around with people who shout Semper Fi, (Forever Faithful)and you think its impossible to find committment of the same level you would find in marriage outside of it, in a single sexed environment.

I dont believe you are that foolish.

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:11 PM
ok, not touching the nature/nurture issue...

But if God did make gay people gay.. and then says you can't be the way I made you.. it seems kinda harsh to hold their actions against them...

GOD didn't make gay people. GOD made people who then chose to rebel against Him. It's the corruption of sin that creates gay people, not GOD.

Does it matter?

But many are not allowed to be part of their partners life at the end.. property, monies, debts, and other things such as that, they are not able to receive upon the death of another.. unless specifically written that way in a will.. so say there is a car accident.. and a person didn't have a will.. .. the monies, and other items would go to the next legal relative.. as maybe opposed to the actual wishes of the deceased.. where as if they could have a legal union.. they woudln't have to worry about such things..

That's just for starters.. some can not enjoy the benfits of joint health insurance.. from the others employer..

And those rights are protected by the US Constitution where exactly?

Besides, as already explained, all that can be covered by a will and power of attorney. If a "committed" gay couple didn't legally prepare ahead of time to protect their partner after death, then maybe they weren't that "committed" to each other to begin with.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:14 PM
What it all boils down to is, comparing the "best" (by worldly standards) gay relationships against the worst heterosexual relationships is not the foundation for an intelligent discussion.

Yes it is.

If you want to know something, why dont you ask someone whose lived that life, rather then presuming you know best.

The vast majority of homosexuals are not on the scene. They either live alone, or they get into a long lasting relationship with someone else not on the scene...these people who form relationships, are usually just an item, and they stay together for their whole lives.

I know men in their 60s, who have only ever been with one partner, and have been so since before homosexuality was legal in England...so thats at least forty odd years!

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 06:25 PM
If there was ever such a thing as a perfect, sinless person after the Fall in the Garden of Eden, then Jesus Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection would be pointless..

Thank you.



You're missing my point. All sins have been atoned for. However, we still need to admit to those sins and repent of them. To repent of a sin not only means that we have to earnestly try to stop committing it (obviously some sins have a greater hold on us than others), but we have to actively try to do good as well.

See... now I am thinking you and I are on the same page again..


Can a homosexual who refuses to acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin be saved? That's a tough one to answer. My first response would be no, because there is no spirit of repentance there. But I'm not ready to just come right out and say no, because we're not required to "clean ourselves" up before we qualify for salvation through Jesus. Plus, I think there is a difference between acknowledging that something is wrong, while being trapped in that lifestyle out of pure human weakness, and approaching GOD with the attitude of "I don't care what you say, there's nothing wrong with me so I'm not going to change." Anyone who goes to GOD with the latter attitude cannot ever hope to receive forgiveness or salvation.


Agreed


The New Testament doesn't nullify the Old Testament. In fact, without the Old Testament, the New Testament is meaningless.

Understood.. so you would say that the NT.. does undercut the OT?





Meaning that EVERYONE and EVERYTHING on this planet has an innate knowledge of GOD. And GOD will reveal Himself to anyone who earnestly searches for Him. So, there is no such thing as "I didn't know."

So if I go through life worshipping a stone.. thinking that I am right.. and not knowing the Bible... I am in the clear?

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:26 PM
...and how would you know?

to hear someone from a Military background say something as dumb and hate filled as that is sickening.

Do you not understand committment can exist outside of a male/female bond? Are you not committed to your friends? were you not committed to whatever brotherhood you were part of in the forces? Were those bonds easy to break, or meaningless?

My God, you hang around with people who shout Semper Fi, (Forever Faithful)and you think its impossible to find committment of the same level you would find in marriage outside of it, in a single sexed environment.

I dont believe you are that foolish.

Um, I'm not having sex with any of those people, Dave, so it's not even remotely close to the same thing.

There are 4 kinds of love according to the Greek language:

Eros - erotic or sexual intimacy. This is the only word for love that implies sexual relations

Sturge - what we would call "puppy love" it's just basic infatuation. It's the kind of love that we would have for inanimate objects, food or could also represent a crush that a young child might have on an adult (long before sexual feelings begin to emerge).

Philos - "brotherly love." This is the love that is shared by siblings, best friends, men on the battlefield, etc. It also represents the love that develops between a father and son when the son has become an adult. Again, completely non-sexual.

Agape - "Godly love" or unconditional love. Some people would argue that we humans are too self-absorbed and imperfect to ever truly know unconditional love, and I would agree to an extent. However, we still feel Agape love to a limited degree, even though there might be those rare conditions that would cause our flawed hearts to lose it.

Marriage between a man and a woman should ideally encompass all 4 forms of love. Every other human relationship that we have on this earth might include Philos or Sturge. The strongest human bonds might encompass Philos and Agape. Rarely would a relationship encompass Philos, Sturge and Agape. No relationship outside of marriage should ever include Eros.

This is what makes marriage unique and non-comparable to other human relationships. No matter how strong those other bonds might be, they will NEVER be as strong as marriage was intended by GOD to be.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:26 PM
Dave, are you trying to say that it is a sin?

You cant be Married, and not be a Christian. Thats what I am saying.

You follow the logic, of all those non christians who have a ceremony in a church and believe that means GOD has sanctified their union.

The Church doesnt make someone married...the best it can do is give a legal contract. The only person who can sanctify a marriage is GOD.

The Definition of marriage IS NOT a man and a woman joined together by law in a church. The Defintition of a marriage is "those whom GOD HAS JOINED IN HOLY MATRIMONY" ...and GOD is relatively clear on who he will and will not join.

He is not going to join to single sexed individuals, and he is not going to join people who do not come before him to make vows to each other...well non christians fall in that bracket. My Sister even asked me why all the hymns to do with love, involve GOD, and not the pair...she is a heathen, planning her "wedding" :rolleyes:

In the eyes of GOD, her Wedding, would mean as much as any homosexual one I got into I dare say.

perhaps GOD will change them once married...and I dont know how it works with a Christian who marries a non christian I must admit. GOD probably consecrates their union so as to bring the non Christian to life within himself as the marriage progresses.

rearnakedchoke
12-07-2010, 06:29 PM
this thread is gay ..

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:30 PM
I believe Dave was talking about a Christian being unequally yoked with a non-believer. Not sure where he got the notion that both have to be Christians.

because its a CHRISTIAN Wedding :laugh:

Chuck
12-07-2010, 06:31 PM
:dunce: you have to actually read :duh:

I try Dave it's just that you type sooooo much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 06:33 PM
GOD didn't make gay people. GOD made people who then chose to rebel against Him. It's the corruption of sin that creates gay people, not GOD.

See.. I don't know that I belive that.. I can understand it.. but don't know that I agree...

IF God created a person that is gay.. wanting to see if the person will turn away from how they were created.. but can't.. does that mean damnation... if so.. what does that say about God?



And those rights are protected by the US Constitution where exactly?

Besides, as already explained, all that can be covered by a will and power of attorney. If a "committed" gay couple didn't legally prepare ahead of time to protect their partner after death, then maybe they weren't that "committed" to each other to begin with.

Health insurance is one where a gay couple can rarely enjoy the same protection that hetro couples have by default...

and a car accident.. doesn't take into account for "when people are prepared".
All I am saying is that gay people are descrimated against when it comes to having a couple of guys.. compared to a man and a woman.. legally.. and it shouldn't really be that way.. You turn it into .."they can't be committed/monogomous".. cause they are gay.. I can't fathom that...

when we start the religious portion then it becomes very grey to me...

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:33 PM
Understood.. so you would say that the NT.. does undercut the OT?

No. That's actually the complete opposite of what I'm saying.

So if I go through life worshipping a stone.. thinking that I am right.. and not knowing the Bible... I am in the clear?

Not at all, you'd go to Hell. If you were truly seeking GOD and somehow got the idea that the stone was GOD, then GOD would eventually reveal to you that it was just a stone. If you continued worshipping the stone, then you were never truly seeking GOD, you really just wanted a god of your own making.

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 06:35 PM
Um, I'm not having sex with any of those people, Dave, so it's not even remotely close to the same thing.

There are 4 kinds of love according to the Greek language:

Eros - erotic or sexual intimacy. This is the only word for love that implies sexual relations

Sturge - what we would call "puppy love" it's just basic infatuation. It's the kind of love that we would have for inanimate objects, food or could also represent a crush that a young child might have on an adult (long before sexual feelings begin to emerge).

Philos - "brotherly love." This is the love that is shared by siblings, best friends, men on the battlefield, etc. It also represents the love that develops between a father and son when the son has become an adult. Again, completely non-sexual.

Agape - "Godly love" or unconditional love. Some people would argue that we humans are too self-absorbed and imperfect to ever truly know unconditional love, and I would agree to an extent. However, we still feel Agape love to a limited degree, even though there might be those rare conditions that would cause our flawed hearts to lose it.

Marriage between a man and a woman should ideally encompass all 4 forms of love. Every other human relationship that we have on this earth might include Philos or Sturge. The strongest human bonds might encompass Philos and Agape. Rarely would a relationship encompass Philos, Sturge and Agape. No relationship outside of marriage should ever include Eros.

This is what makes marriage unique and non-comparable to other human relationships. No matter how strong those other bonds might be, they will NEVER be as strong as marriage was intended by GOD to be.

Nate.. I have sturge-love for you.....:ashamed:

nope.. just don't sound right....

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:35 PM
Jesus is about love. We should pray that they turn from there wicked ways.

According to your own Biblical Quote a while back Mark...you should technically speaking kill them.

You cant have it both ways :laugh: ...the Culture has changed to classify gays as non sinful...and that is wrong...but the cultural change that says its wrong to kill gays is....right???

You have to be aware, in a strict application...yeah, homosexuals are sinning, and they should be killed because of it.

The Democrats have changed it to remove the sin, but the Republicans have changed it to reduce the sentance.

Spiritwalker
12-07-2010, 06:39 PM
No. That's actually the complete opposite of what I'm saying.

right .. I get that.. but being that the NT is in existance.. and people of a Godly nature follow/belive it.. do you not see the contridictions in the each?



Not at all, you'd go to Hell. If you were truly seeking GOD and somehow got the idea that the stone was GOD, then GOD would eventually reveal to you that it was just a stone. If you continued worshipping the stone, then you were never truly seeking GOD, you really just wanted a god of your own making.

But without a "point of reference" for this worship to be directed.. then your going to "the hot spot"... so if I "didn't get the reveal".. I am done it.. I don't know that, that's the way to look at it... Or maybe that's what I have been searching for...

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:41 PM
IF God created a person that is gay..

GOD doesn't create gay people. It's the corruption of sin that causes people to be gay.

Here's how it happened. GOD created Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve rebelled against GOD, thus cursing themselves and every single human being who would ever be born on this planet, with the exception of Jesus Christ. Think of it like a genetic disease that is passed down from generation to generation. We can't help it, we are born with the corruption and that corruption causes us to naturally rebel against GOD, seek our own desires above all else, and will ultimately separate us from GOD forever.

This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin, to break that cycle of sin.

So we are born with our sin nature and are doomed to eternal damnation from the very moment of our conception. It's that sinful nature that makes people into murderers, thieves, liars, cheaters, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, fornicators, etc.

Homosexuals are born with the sin nature that will eventually lead them to a life of homosexuality, but they weren't created that way by GOD. It's a part of the curse that we all suffer from and have no hope of ever overcoming outside of faith in Jesus Christ.

CAVEMAN
12-07-2010, 06:42 PM
1) No we are not talking about a form of sexual immorality...we are talking about a legal contract.

2) every insitution is fallen. That doesnt make it special.

3) and just where was you vocalization at the financial decay bit exactly?

1) You might be, but I was talking about God endorsing Civil unions which is rights for sexual immorality!
2)Even so, it is still not right!:wink:
3)Remember I said I would rather them be approving a state budget than approving civil unions.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:42 PM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that GOD hates gay people. .

Yes it does, as quoted by Mark some time ago

Leviticus 20
13 " 'Suppose a man has sex with another man as he would have sex with a woman. I hate what they have done. They must be put to death. Anything that happens to them will be their own fault.

It cant be said any clearer, can it. He dislikes what they do, he wants them dead...dont quibble over semantics and tell me he just doesnt like what they do...because if that were the case, the second line would be "they must stop" and its not. its not just about hating the action, because the inaction still requires the death sentance according to leviticus

rearnakedchoke
12-07-2010, 06:45 PM
he is saying he hates what they have DONE, not who they ARE

CAVEMAN
12-07-2010, 06:50 PM
Because of what Marriage actually is. Marriage is a mirror of Christ and His Church, and ultimately the union between man and GOD. Its a purely Christian Rite. It is a Blessing GOD bestows on his people.

So anyone who is non Christian doesnt Qualify, and, incidently that means they are never truely married, which means when they have sex...guess what...its outside of wedlock also..
because Marriage has nothing to do with a ceremony, and nothing to do with a legal contract, It cant be threatened or distroyed, because it is a gift from GOD

You got scripture to back that up?

And for your information, marriage is a contract between 1 man, 1 woman, and GOD!

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:50 PM
right .. I get that.. but being that the NT is in existance.. and people of a Godly nature follow/belive it.. do you not see the contridictions in the each?

There are no contradictions between the Old and New Testament. The illusion of contradictions is usually a result of ignorant people trying to discern a perfect book with our tiny, flawed brains. This is why we need GOD's help to understand the Bible and why we need to take the time to study the entire Bible, not just portions of it.

If you were to pick up any book and read a few sentences from the beginning, then jump to the middle and read a few more sentences, then go about 2/3rds in and read half a sentence, then jump back a hundred pages and read another sentence, etc., then could you ever expect to understand what that book was about? Of course not! So why people believe that they can know everything there is to know about GOD, the all-powerful Being who created the entire universe, by reading few scattered sentences in the New Testament is beyond me.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:51 PM
Um, I'm not having sex with any of those people, Dave, so it's not even remotely close to the same thing.



:blink: its not all about sex Nathan! :laugh: Thats like saying, if you fancy someone in a sexual way...you could never just be friends...half the married people I know actually say their other half is their best friend...thats a completely non sexual reference.

A true and loving relationship has ALL FOUR types of love...Even a close friendship has the possibility for two out of the four.

...and I stand by my statement of the Military...the love in some of these Brotherhoods is so great that they will risk their lives for each other, and die to save another of their team.

Christ said Greater Love Hath No Man then to lay down his life for a friend.

You dont think he was talking about Eros when he said love in that senatance...I know your not this stupid Nathan :rolleyes:

NateR
12-07-2010, 06:52 PM
Yes it does, as quoted by Mark some time ago

Leviticus 20
13 " 'Suppose a man has sex with another man as he would have sex with a woman. I hate what they have done. They must be put to death. Anything that happens to them will be their own fault.

It cant be said any clearer, can it. He dislikes what they do, he wants them dead...dont quibble over semantics and tell me he just doesnt like what they do...because if that were the case, the second line would be "they must stop" and its not. its not just about hating the action, because the inaction still requires the death sentance according to leviticus

he is saying he hates what they have DONE, not who they ARE

Exactly. Thank you.

Dave, maybe you should take your own advice and try reading every once in a while. :tongue0011:

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:53 PM
You got scripture to back that up?

And for your information, marriage is a contract between 1 man, 1 woman, and GOD!
You cant have a contract with a GOD you dont believe in...you've answered your own question.

Feel free to post the passage that says I'm wrong. :wink:

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:55 PM
I try Dave it's just that you type sooooo much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:

:mellow:

its okay Chuck...noones perfect :laugh:

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:58 PM
he is saying he hates what they have DONE, not who they ARE

Really...then why does he Kill who they are for what they have done?
rather then just getting them to stop doing something?

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 06:59 PM
Exactly. Thank you.

Dave, maybe you should take your own advice and try reading every once in a while. :tongue0011:

im too busy trying to keep up :mellow::laugh:

NateR
12-07-2010, 07:02 PM
:blink: its not all about sex Nathan! :laugh: Thats like saying, if you fancy someone in a sexual way...you could never just be friends...half the married people I know actually say their other half is their best friend...thats a completely non sexual reference.

A true and loving relationship has ALL FOUR types of love...Even a close friendship has the possibility for two out of the four.

...and I stand by my statement of the Military...the love in some of these Brotherhoods is so great that they will risk their lives for each other, and die to save another of their team.

Christ said Greater Love Hath No Man then to lay down his life for a friend.

You dont think he was talking about Eros when he said love in that senatance...I know your not this stupid Nathan :rolleyes:

I think I remember reading somewhere that personal insults are a sign of a weak argument.

In many ways, the bond of brotherly love is stronger than any love that a man will feel for his wife. However, marriage is still a unique bond that cannot be compared to brotherly love.

When GOD created Adam and Eve, He was creating a marriage. It's the first human relationship that GOD created. Religion, church, government, etc. are manmade institutions. Marriage was created by GOD directly and is a three way pact between GOD, man and woman. We didn't create it, thus we have no authority to redefine it.

CAVEMAN
12-07-2010, 07:06 PM
You cant have a contract with a GOD you dont believe in...you've answered your own question.

Feel free to post the passage that says I'm wrong. :wink:

1 Corinthians 7: 12-15

12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

New King James Version (NKJV)

Why would God tell the believing wife or husband not to divorce the unbeliever if HE does not acknowledge that marriage to begin with??????

Marriage between a man and woman is a Divine institution; and is an engagement for life, by God's appointment.

NateR
12-07-2010, 07:07 PM
im too busy trying to keep up :mellow::laugh:

Or maybe too busy being belligerent and insulting to everyone.

If you are not even going to make an attempt to see another person's point of view and instead become increasingly abusive towards the other Christians, who just happen to be your friends, on this board. Then it might be time for you to sit this discussion out.

Did you even try to read up on wills and power of attorney, or whatever their equivalent is over there in England?

Chuck
12-07-2010, 07:19 PM
...and I stand by my statement of the Military...the love in some of these Brotherhoods is so great that they will risk their lives for each other, and die to save another of their team.

Dave don't let your personal infatuation with the military cloud your judgment. Don't confuse duty with love. You don't serve, obey and potentially sacrifice your life for other men because you love them. It's about duty.

Really...then why does he Kill who they are for what they have done?
rather then just getting them to stop doing something?

The wages of sin are death Dave. If He just "got them to stop doing something" then we wouldn't have free will would we? Read your Bible.. the entire OT is God trying to get us to change our ways and repent from our choices.

TENNESSEAN
12-07-2010, 08:15 PM
According to your own Biblical Quote a while back Mark...you should technically speaking kill them.

You cant have it both ways :laugh: ...the Culture has changed to classify gays as non sinful...and that is wrong...but the cultural change that says its wrong to kill gays is....right???

You have to be aware, in a strict application...yeah, homosexuals are sinning, and they should be killed because of it.

The Democrats have changed it to remove the sin, but the Republicans have changed it to reduce the sentance

:laugh:

NateR
12-07-2010, 08:29 PM
It cant be said any clearer, can it. He dislikes what they do, he wants them dead...dont quibble over semantics and tell me he just doesnt like what they do...because if that were the case, the second line would be "they must stop" and its not. its not just about hating the action, because the inaction still requires the death sentance according to leviticus

Lots of sins require the death penalty, but that doesn't mean that GOD hates those people who He commands to be put to death.

When a man is convicted of murder and sentenced to death, does that mean that the jury, who found him guilty, or the judge, who ordered the death penalty, hates that man? Not at all. It's about justice, not emotions.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 09:13 PM
1 Corinthians 7: 12-15

12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

New King James Version (NKJV)

Why would God tell the believing wife or husband not to divorce the unbeliever if HE does not acknowledge that marriage to begin with??????

Marriage between a man and woman is a Divine institution; and is an engagement for life, by God's appointment.

that doesnt say two non christians though does it.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 09:15 PM
Dave don't let your personal infatuation with the military cloud your judgment. Don't confuse duty with love. You don't serve, obey and potentially sacrifice your life for other men because you love them. It's about duty.


:unsure-1: I'm not sure I understand the difference :unsure-1:

Chuck
12-07-2010, 09:26 PM
:unsure-1: I'm not sure I understand the difference :unsure-1:

That would actually explain a lot....

CAVEMAN
12-07-2010, 09:37 PM
that doesnt say two non christians though does it.

Dave, Marriage(between a man and woman) is a divine institution and ordained of God for all people! It is part of HIS creation!

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 09:45 PM
1)Or maybe too busy being belligerent and insulting to everyone.

If you are not even going to make an attempt to see another person's point of view and instead become increasingly abusive towards the other Christians, who just happen to be your friends, on this board. Then it might be time for you to sit this discussion out.

2) Did you even try to read up on wills and power of attorney, or whatever their equivalent is over there in England?

1) your not trying to understand my point of view, and you made the supremely insulting point that its impossible for any homosexual relationship to be committed.

None of you seem to understand, I lived that life for several years, I am speaking from experience, and with knoweldge gained from personal insight

You do not know, and you do not understand what it is like to have this sort of thing brought up time and time again. You do not know how it feels, you make sudden rullings without the slightest bit of recognition, you reduce what is a truely damning affliction, to a simple theology of "sin no more" of course your not born with it, of course you can help it, its just an addiction, its just a mental health problem. Or my personal favourite, that the Lord will never test you beyond your means and always provides a way out.

You dont listen to me. :sad: Because if you did, you would know how hard I have fought against this form of evil, and the personal cost of that for me, and for my family. You would know that noone wishes more then me, that I had a proper family, with real children, rather then just the company of a few caged bird and long cold continuous nights alone. You would understand how depressed I feel at the though of Christmas, when I have noone special to buy for, when the only choice topic of conversation is the arrangement of my Sisters Wedding. You dont see that I live alone and on the brink stacking shelves and sorting through waste, as the oldest and only son of my parents, a shame bringer to the family that can not progress except through me, an embarissment to my Ordained Father, whilst my two younger sisters and paired off, earning four times as much as me, and preparing to get married and provide my last remaining Grandparent with the joys of Great Grand Kids. I dare not espouse this too often in public for the eternal criticism that I'm just "a victim" or an attention seeker, or selfish, or narrcasistic.

So I am sorry if you think I have been abusive, but I think the gravity of the issues we are discussing is lost on you, this isnt some abstract theological debate, or clinical theoretical disscussion. This is not an idle topic of conversation to me. it is something that cuts very deep and hurts very much. Whilst none of that is your fault, or good reason to avoid anything, more sensativity should be called for.

2) Yes, and I told you how it was different in England, and how we have an Executor and how anything contested in a will is settled by a court and usually in favour of the next of kin.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 09:47 PM
Dave, Marriage(between a man and woman) is a divine institution and ordained of God for all people! It is part of HIS creation!

Where is the biblical basis for that

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 09:50 PM
That would actually explain a lot....

:unsure-1: I dont understand :sad:

CAVEMAN
12-07-2010, 10:25 PM
Where is the biblical basis for that

Are you saying GOD did not create marriage? Genesis 2: 21-24

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Are you saying GOD did not create marriage? Genesis 2: 21-24

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

No...I am saying...If a marriage consists of a union between man and wife and these vows and this union is created thus by GOD...how can that be if BOTH the man and the Wife DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD :huh:

CAVEMAN
12-07-2010, 10:32 PM
No...I am saying...If a marriage consists of a union between man and wife and these vows and this union is created thus by GOD...how can that be if BOTH the man and the Wife DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD :huh:

Did Adam and Eve believe GOD? They fell, didn't they.....and notice that verse 24 does not say a "believer" shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his "believing" wife.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 10:47 PM
Did Adam and Eve believe GOD? They fell, didn't they.....

Adam and Eve knew GOD, their whole life, Falling didnt stop them knowing him.

Likewise before the law was given one assumes that the Sacrement was valid in the same way as those who were saved were valid prior to Christ...all they had to do was trust and believe in GOD.

Then when the law was given, one presumes that the Sacrement was valid for the Jews, after all there was provision for who you could, and who you couldnt not lie with.

But once Christ came, the fullest of revelations was made clear. Christ and the Church is equaitable to the union of man and wife...or even union with GOD. The Jew rejected Christ

For those who dont know Christ...how can they claim to be in a GOD Blessed Union...they dont know, or believe in Christ...I get that one person can be blessed in a marriage because the other person knows...but that still implies one of the two needs to be a Christian for the Marriage to be sanctified.

So when two pagens get married...one presumes that The GOD of the Bible does not sanctify such a union....well non belief, is as bad as a belief in another religion...it doesnt matter how you call it...a belief in GOD is essential for a Union like marriage...I would like to suggest that the lack of belief is a big factor in the amount of marriage breakdowns...

marriages are not just contracts and a church ceremony...they arent something you can get out of once you are inside, except by the death of the other. They arent based on the sexual feelings or emotions that come and go. Its a life time choice, a promise TO GOD, and a gift FROM GOD

I cant see how a non christian would even want that to be fair.

Mark
12-07-2010, 11:30 PM
No...I am saying...If a marriage consists of a union between man and wife and these vows and this union is created thus by GOD...how can that be if BOTH the man and the Wife DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD :huh:

Dave show me in the Bible where it is a sin for man and woman that are not believers to get married! If it is not a sin then what are you arguing about and for?
This is off topic the topic of discussion is civil union (a stepping stone for gay marriage). I am against this if you didnt know.

Tyburn
12-07-2010, 11:55 PM
Dave show me in the Bible where it is a sin for man and woman that are not believers to get married! If it is not a sin then what are you arguing about and for?
This is off topic the topic of discussion is civil union (a stepping stone for gay marriage). I am against this if you didnt know.

If you dont believe in GOD, its impossible to be in union with him :)

If its impossible to be in union with him, then you dont have a marriage do you. :)

If you dont have a real marriage BUT you go doing the stuff married people do...then you risk sex outside of wedlock :)

sex outside of wedlock is a sin. :mellow:

The topic of discussion was actually why is the State of Illinois bothering to vote for policy change allowing Civil Unions, when they should be concentrating on the fact they are in debt.

Although I have asked several times, why they are in debt...noone seems able to actually answer that. I mentioned perhaps it had something to do with the economy...but noone wanted to talk about that either.

Mark
12-08-2010, 12:05 AM
Is this what the Bible says or what Dave says? Show me in the Bible where it is a sin. Sorry I dont want any ramblings either just Bible quotes.

NateR
12-08-2010, 03:33 AM
Is this what the Bible says or what Dave says? Show me in the Bible where it is a sin. Sorry I dont want any ramblings either just Bible quotes.

I think you struck Dave speechless.

I hereby declare Mark the winner of this thread. :happydancing:

Anyways, the institution of marriage was created in Genesis 1:24
"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

This is before the Fall of Man, before the establishment of Israel and before Christianity. So it doesn't really make any sense to declare that marriage is a Christian institution alone. It was created for all of mankind before sin even entered the world.

If a non-believing man and woman get married, I believe GOD still holds them to that commitment. So the husband would still be guilty of adultery if he cheated on his wife and vice versa.

J.B.
12-08-2010, 03:49 AM
I think you struck Dave speechless.

I hereby declare Mark the winner of this thread. :happydancing:


Thread? :rolleyes:

Try, winner of the internet. :wink:

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/2/2f/Lolzturtle.gif

Tyburn
12-08-2010, 12:49 PM
you guys are nutty :laugh:



GOD also said BEFORE the fall, that its not good for man to be alone...so where does that leave homosexuals? They cant get married because thats man and woman only, but GOD also says its bad for them to be alone.

Chuck
12-08-2010, 02:14 PM
you guys are nutty :laugh:



GOD also said BEFORE the fall, that its not good for man to be alone...so where does that leave homosexuals? They cant get married because thats man and woman only, but GOD also says its bad for them to be alone.

Well.... there's always repentance....... or friends..... or the church..... or support groups......


Trying to justify a homosexual relationship because God said it's not good to be alone is pretty weak Dave......

NateR
12-08-2010, 03:04 PM
Well.... there's always repentance....... or friends..... or the church..... or support groups......


Trying to justify a homosexual relationship because God said it's not good to be alone is pretty weak Dave......

Or the simple fact that homosexuality is a result of the Fall, thus didn't exist before sin entered the world.

Dave, you seem to act like GOD is incapable of healing a homosexual and that man can never have a normal family life as GOD intended. Out of all the diseases and illnesses that GOD can cure, He can't cure homosexuality? That's nonsense!

If there is a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality and GOD doesn't cure them of it, then it's obviously because GOD doesn't want to cure them of it. But it's definitely NOT because GOD wants that man to practice homosexuality and go find another man to marry. GOD doesn't tempt people to sin, regardless of whether gays are born that way or not, homosexuality is still a sin and against the Will of GOD.

Did Jesus tell us to be true to ourselves if we wanted to follow Him? No. If we want to follow Christ we need to DENY ourselves and our sinful desires.

CAVEMAN
12-08-2010, 03:45 PM
I think you struck Dave speechless.

I hereby declare Mark the winner of this thread. :happydancing:

Anyways, the institution of marriage was created in Genesis 1:24
"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

This is before the Fall of Man, before the establishment of Israel and before Christianity. So it doesn't really make any sense to declare that marriage is a Christian institution alone. It was created for all of mankind before sin even entered the world.

If a non-believing man and woman get married, I believe GOD still holds them to that commitment. So the husband would still be guilty of adultery if he cheated on his wife and vice versa.

Thank you, Nate! That is exactly what I was trying to get across to Dave.:)

Tyburn
12-09-2010, 08:51 PM
Well.... there's always repentance....... or friends..... or the church..... or support groups......


Trying to justify a homosexual relationship because God said it's not good to be alone is pretty weak Dave......

I'm not trying to justify anything. But I am noticing what GOD said...and friends, church, support groups, cant replace intermacy...someone to share yourself with, someone to live with, someone to love.

Tyburn
12-09-2010, 09:00 PM
Or the simple fact that homosexuality is a result of the Fall, thus didn't exist before sin entered the world.

Dave, you seem to act like GOD is incapable of healing a homosexual and that man can never have a normal family life as GOD intended. Out of all the diseases and illnesses that GOD can cure, He can't cure homosexuality? That's nonsense!

If there is a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality and GOD doesn't cure them of it, then it's obviously because GOD doesn't want to cure them of it. But it's definitely NOT because GOD wants that man to practice homosexuality and go find another man to marry. GOD doesn't tempt people to sin, regardless of whether gays are born that way or not, homosexuality is still a sin and against the Will of GOD.

Did Jesus tell us to be true to ourselves if we wanted to follow Him? No. If we want to follow Christ we need to DENY ourselves and our sinful desires.

Cure?? that choice of word explains everything about your mindset on this issue. This isnt about cure, its about transformation...and no, they are not the same thing. (can adultorers be "cured") Of course I think that GOD can do, but I dont think that means that he does.

GOD does allow the devil to tempt people to sin, and he does also test people.

...and once again you make no distinction between feelings and practise.

Neezar
12-10-2010, 04:40 AM
Well I guess that settles that then. lol


Once again,

Dave doesn't know what he is talking about.

Nate is being insensitive.

Caveman keeps trying to bring logic into it. (Dirty scoundrel. lol)

Mark jumps in with a jab every now and then.

etc.

:laugh: