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adamt
09-12-2010, 07:06 AM
okay, i was pretty dead set in my thinking about the burn a koran thing, but i am open to being converted on this:laugh:

isn't socialism ideal?

aren't amish socialists?

have you ever heard of the hutterites?

so i hate to bash socialism too much, cause i think the millineum will be a monarchal socialistic society

i think the flaw with socialism is sin

aren't christians supposed to take care of each other, and isn't that socialism

and didn't jamestown start out socialistic only to find that sin sabotaged it?

communal ways of life i guess is different from communism, but i think at the heart it isn't an evil thing

i don't think we should refer to it as socialism, but more like marxism

so help me think through this.......

logrus
09-12-2010, 08:01 AM
okay, i was pretty dead set in my thinking about the burn a koran thing, but i am open to being converted on this:laugh:

isn't socialism ideal?

aren't amish socialists?

have you ever heard of the hutterites?

so i hate to bash socialism too much, cause i think the millineum will be a monarchal socialistic society

i think the flaw with socialism is sin

aren't christians supposed to take care of each other, and isn't that socialism

and didn't jamestown start out socialistic only to find that sin sabotaged it?

communal ways of life i guess is different from communism, but i think at the heart it isn't an evil thing

i don't think we should refer to it as socialism, but more like marxism

so help me think through this.......

There is wisdom in all traditions, every ritual.

You sig saddens me.

J.B.
09-12-2010, 12:14 PM
You sig saddens me.

Word

County Mike
09-12-2010, 12:44 PM
The idea of socialism is pretty good.

The actual practice of socialism is terrible because people are inheritantly lazy. When people realize that they don't GET MORE by DOING MORE, they choose to do less.

It works for the Amish because their religion enforces the work ethic. Without that religious backbone, socialism doesn't work.

I'd be all for socialism if every person actually tried to carry their share of the burden.

adamt
09-12-2010, 02:22 PM
There is wisdom in all traditions, every ritual.

You sig saddens me.

Word

there i deleted it, or at least tried, it should go away

The idea of socialism is pretty good.

The actual practice of socialism is terrible because people are inheritantly lazy. When people realize that they don't GET MORE by DOING MORE, they choose to do less.

It works for the Amish because their religion enforces the work ethic. Without that religious backbone, socialism doesn't work.

I'd be all for socialism if every person actually tried to carry their share of the burden.

that's kinda what i thought, it's not really socialism that's bad, it's the people that enforce it, ......i think.... prolly cause they want to divy out the pie, and in the end who gets the biggest piece? right?

NateR
09-12-2010, 07:32 PM
I don't think socialism is a proper description of what the Millennial Reign will be. It will be a monarchy for sure, but one in which the believers rule alongside Christ in a definite hierarchy. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are all going to be equals in the Kingdom of GOD, in fact, most of Jesus' parables imply the exact opposite. The positions that we hold and the rewards that we receive in the Kingdom will be determined by our works on this earth.

Revelation 19:15 talks about Christ ruling the nations with a rod of iron and in 20:6 it talks about Christ's followers ruling the world alongside Him. Who will we be ruling over? Unbelievers. There would be no need for Christ to rule the Earth with a rod of iron if the entire world was populated with nothing but believers. And when Satan is released after the 1000 years, he will incite one last, all-out rebellion against GOD:

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from GOD out of heaven and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

This last rebellion is clearly an army of unbelievers and there are millions, maybe even billions of them, at the end of the Millennial Reign.

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 09:37 PM
okay, i was pretty dead set in my thinking about the burn a koran thing, but i am open to being converted on this:laugh:

isn't socialism ideal?

aren't amish socialists?

have you ever heard of the hutterites?

so i hate to bash socialism too much, cause i think the millineum will be a monarchal socialistic society

i think the flaw with socialism is sin

aren't christians supposed to take care of each other, and isn't that socialism

and didn't jamestown start out socialistic only to find that sin sabotaged it?

communal ways of life i guess is different from communism, but i think at the heart it isn't an evil thing

i don't think we should refer to it as socialism, but more like marxism

so help me think through this.......

Socialism, and Communism are two different things, both are Marxist in design.

Socialism works the best BUT with one terrible draw back. It ONLY works on small communites. It cannot work as a political system for any country with out it becoming nothing but a terrible form of Feudalism.

Socialism works well for a Kabbutz, it works well for a religious community, it works well for a small group of isolated individuals, it worked well for the Early Church...but by the end of Acts you can start to see the problems, with governing too many people, the whole structure collapses

Communal ways of life are NOT essentially different from communism, its just they arent used as a method of governance, and you usually find they are only over a limited number of people at a time.

So it depends exactly what you are applying it to. A monastic Community can run on Communism and flourish greatly in a Christian Manner...The United States of America CAN NOT.

Think of it like a Childhood stage of development. With a small population no bigger then a few hundred, it works...when you start on the thousands...you see its flaws...by the time you get to tens of thousands its breaking down...it simply cant govern millions...instead what you get is a gap between those who are poor, and a few elites that govern where the spending goes. At that moment, its Suddenly jumped from Left wing...to essentially a Feudalism. Feudalism is what many primative societies run on, where everyone gives, and a few elites decide where the spoils go. Native Americans ran on independant Feudal Societies...where a Chief and his group of Warriors would decide what to do, and everyone played a part somehow for the benefit of the Tribe. But even Feudalism only works on small independants...Britain ran on Feudalism, under a Monarch. They were known as "Barons" or "Lords" and they owned areas of England, and under them, the House, or the Township on their land, would all pay, and in return, all receive.

Feudalism and Communism, will only work in areas independant and shut off or segregated, where they are forced to work together for survival, and small enough that everyone decides, aswell as everyone gives, as well as everyone receives...what tends to happen is...you begin with Communism...then when that gets to large you have a civil war within the community, and two camps develope...at this point it becomes Feudal...because each camp with have a heirachy that was generated in fighting for whatever cause created the split...at that point Communism evaporates as whoever is incharge makes a decision. After that you get Monarchy...when slowly all these different clans war, fight, and begin to merge, and they need to be ordered by someone, a Chief amoung Barrons...following that You will get Consitutional Democrasy, or Republics...where there is a charter to follow, and the mass get to decide a body who can then govern. Following this, you get Imperialism...and once that imperialism is over...the country has more or less reached old age.

The next evolution is probably Federalism (of which the United States doesnt count...and the reason it doesnt, is because, more or less it was created as a Federal Union, each area annexed, and then sucked into a Union...No...when I mean Federalism...I mean independant Countries, independant Soverignties that join together...like Communism....but where each country is a person....if that makes sense) Federalism is a form of Communism, but it has no direct effect on individual people, instead each area of land is treated as a person...my guess is thus, when it gets to large, whole area of land are laid waste to benefit the few areas of land with the bodies that decide where the collective wealth is spent. I remember Nathan telling me that the Federal Government of the US uses this tactic to ensure the State Government complies...perhaps if Ohio wishes not to, they can go without Highway Maintainance for a while :ninja: catch my drift?

In between these points you get various things that go wrong...someone might become ellected, and then declaire himself a supreme ruller...Some Military might exact a coup, and place their Leader on the throne instead...

As for the Millenial Reign...that has nothing to do with Socialism...thats the exact opposite. The Millenial Reign will be an Absolute Monarchy...So absolute, there will be no dynasty...simply a Dictator with the Right to be King.

adamt
09-12-2010, 11:27 PM
I don't think socialism is a proper description of what the Millennial Reign will be. It will be a monarchy for sure, but one in which the believers rule alongside Christ in a definite hierarchy. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are all going to be equals in the Kingdom of GOD, in fact, most of Jesus' parables imply the exact opposite. The positions that we hold and the rewards that we receive in the Kingdom will be determined by our works on this earth. i definitely believe this, but i hadn't really pondered how that factored into the way the millineum will work, i mean, i don't think we'll use money will we? or do you think we will? and i am not being snide, just thinking out loud,

Revelation 19:15 talks about Christ ruling the nations with a rod of iron and in 20:6 it talks about Christ's followers ruling the world alongside Him. Who will we be ruling over? Unbelievers. that's what i believe as well, i just wonder if we will have to pay and or buy from unbelievers?? i don't mean to imply it is slavery, but if we are ruling, we are still providing a service to the entire social realm, right?There would be no need for Christ to rule the Earth with a rod of iron if the entire world was populated with nothing but believers. And when Satan is released after the 1000 years, he will incite one last, all-out rebellion against GOD:



This last rebellion is clearly an army of unbelievers and there are millions, maybe even billions of them, at the end of the Millennial Reign.


i know this doesn't matter in the least, it is just something interesting to talk about with other mature believers

it does keep me going alot of times though, as far as working hard down here for what seems like nothing,

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 11:47 PM
with other mature believers



:laugh:

adamt
09-13-2010, 01:15 AM
:laugh:

don't worry dave, i was talking about nate

your response in and of itself should have told you that much:wink:

Play The Man
09-13-2010, 02:35 AM
Some everyday life situations illustrate how socialism doesn't work in practice.

How many people have a communal refrigerator for sack lunches at work? Isn't it usually dirty, cluttered and disorganized? It is often filled with out-of-date forgotten food. Unless someone is specifically assigned the task, the refrigerator will never be cleaned. Everyone looks to someone else to do it. Nobody takes personal responsibility.

Another illustration is that of a bar at a wedding. The bride and groom can either make it an open bar or a cash bar. Do you think the kind of bar makes a difference in the amount of alcohol consumed at the wedding? Of course it does. If the drinks are free, the guests will drink more than if they have to pay $5 or $7 per drink. In life, there is no free lunch. Socialism tries to give everyone a free lunch, and in the long run, it just doesn't work.

Tyburn
09-13-2010, 10:49 AM
don't worry dave, i was talking about nate

your response in and of itself should have told you that much:wink:

No, it was your mention of yourself in that which made me laugh.

Neezar
09-13-2010, 11:05 AM
No, it was your mention of yourself in that which made me laugh.

Well I hope you were bullying him about his maturity and not his faith. Because that wouldn't be very Christianlike, now would it?

adamt
09-13-2010, 01:31 PM
No, it was your mention of yourself in that which made me laugh.

and it was your selfish poor character that just HAD to post something to make a point of bullying and trying to start a fight in a completely calm thread that proves that you, dave, are the immature person, let alone, what it show's about your faith

as much as you like to bully people, it makes me wonder if your islamic friends have gotten to you

one thing i do know is that I don't fellowship with openly evil Jesus haters

Tyburn
09-13-2010, 03:47 PM
Well I hope you were bullying him about his maturity and not his faith. Because that wouldn't be very Christianlike, now would it?

I wasnt bullying him about anything.

Tyburn
09-13-2010, 04:07 PM
and it was your selfish poor character that just HAD to post something to make a point of bullying and trying to start a fight in a completely calm thread that proves that you, dave, are the immature person, let alone, what it show's about your faith

as much as you like to bully people, it makes me wonder if your islamic friends have gotten to you

one thing i do know is that I don't fellowship with openly evil Jesus haters

You and I shall never speak again AdamT. Life is to short, and arguing with you isnt going to change your mind. You go and do what you want, and hold whatever opinions you want of me, I really do not care.

I hope that GOD blesses you with further Revelations, and that he builds you up to be the man of GOD you obviously long to be (even if I think you have completely the wrong idea of him)

I harbour you no further ill will, although I will admit that I was very angry at you last weekend, but I see absolutely no point in communicating with you whatsoever, as I strongly suspect all furture correspondance shall end with the sort of squallor we saw in the Koran Burning thread, and what we see could easily happen here.

In summery, I say exactly where I stand, and Exactly why I refute you in this weeks video blog. If you dont aggree, fair enough. You go your way, I shall go my way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqLaTaNhP8E

adamt
09-13-2010, 05:32 PM
You and I shall never speak again AdamT. Life is to short, and arguing with you isnt going to change your mind. You go and do what you want, and hold whatever opinions you want of me, I really do not care.

I hope that GOD blesses you with further Revelations, and that he builds you up to be the man of GOD you obviously long to be (even if I think you have completely the wrong idea of him)

I harbour you no further ill will, although I will admit that I was very angry at you last weekend, but I see absolutely no point in communicating with you whatsoever, as I strongly suspect all furture correspondance shall end with the sort of squallor we saw in the Koran Burning thread, and what we see could easily happen here.

In summery, I say exactly where I stand, and Exactly why I refute you in this weeks video blog. If you dont aggree, fair enough. You go your way, I shall go my way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqLaTaNhP8E



sounds good


this was a simple thread and YOU brought the pettiness into it, there was no need or call for it and you just :stirthepot:

you're overly emotinoal and overly sensitive, i never once was angry, there was nothing to be angry about

i hope God reveals to you how much it saddens Him when you fellowship with satanic mohammedists

Rev
09-14-2010, 04:19 AM
Christans are suposed to take care of each other by choice and a desire to show the love of Christ. Socialism is different. It removes the choice and it becomes legalism. Christ doesn't wan to force us to do good, he wants us to choose to do good. As far as taking care of others, the word says that if you don't work, you don't eat. I don't have a problem helping someone who is willing to help themself. But the type of "help" that socialism promotes, don't cut the mustard win me or most of the brothers and sisters on this forum I would bet. Am I right in assuming this people?

adamt
09-14-2010, 02:37 PM
Christans are suposed to take care of each other by choice and a desire to show the love of Christ. Socialism is different. It removes the choice and it becomes legalism. Christ doesn't wan to force us to do good, he wants us to choose to do good. As far as taking care of others, the word says that if you don't work, you don't eat. I don't have a problem helping someone who is willing to help themself. But the type of "help" that socialism promotes, don't cut the mustard win me or most of the brothers and sisters on this forum I would bet. Am I right in assuming this people?

that's probably the best answer in this thread,

socialism as we know it takes the free will out, i guess we know how it would be now if there wasn't free will in salvation

communal lifestyles like the amish and hutterites are a choice

i think you may have hit the nail on the head rev


that still doesn't tell me how the millineum will be though :laugh:

Play The Man
09-15-2010, 08:07 AM
that's probably the best answer in this thread,

socialism as we know it takes the free will out, i guess we know how it would be now if there wasn't free will in salvation

communal lifestyles like the amish and hutterites are a choice

i think you may have hit the nail on the head rev


that still doesn't tell me how the millineum will be though :laugh:

The bolded quotes are quite ironic as 1) our will is in bondage in regards to salvation (read Luther's disputations with Erasmus in The Bondage of the Will) and 2) according to a nunc-millennialism/amillennialism interpretation of eschatology, we are in the millennium.