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rockdawg21
09-11-2010, 02:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w

Has anybody read the Quran? Are these claims actually true?

Bonnie
09-11-2010, 05:54 PM
If it is true, I'm even more concerned about this NY mosque and the people behind it. Why do they absolutely have to build it there right around the corner from where the towers stood and fell. I think this is very significant to them. It kills me that they are using our freedoms against us to further the spread of Islam/Sharia while plotting against us.

NateR
09-11-2010, 07:37 PM
I've been hearing these statements for years, especially from those who have converted to Christianity from Islam. The only peace that Muslims want is the peace that exists when everyone who disagrees with them is dead.

So this brings us to one of two possibilities involving "moderate" Muslims:
1. They are liars.
2. They are bad Muslims and not true converts to the faith.

Once you understand the nature of Islam, then you realize that the only "good" faithful Muslims are the Jihadists and Extremists.

flo
09-11-2010, 07:41 PM
Yes, all three are true.

Horrible, isn't it?

flo
09-11-2010, 07:52 PM
The only peace that Muslims want is the peace that exists when everyone who disagrees with them is dead.

I agree with this but would also add "or enslaved". In their plan, the Christians and Jews (or any non-Muslims) who aren't converted or killed outright would be dhimmis - slaves - to serve them.

From Wiki:

Views of contemporary Islamic scholars on the status of dhimmis in an Islamic society
Ayatollah Khomeini in his book On Islamic Government indicates unequivocally that non-Muslims should be required to pay the poll tax, in return for which they would profit from the protection and services of the state; they would, however, be excluded from all participation in the political process.[33] Bernard Lewis remarks about Khomeini that one of his main grievances against the Shah was that his legislation allowed the theoretical possibility of non-Muslims exercising political or judicial authority over Muslims.[34]
Allameh Tabatabaei, a prominent 20th century Shia scholar, commenting on a hadith that claims that the verse 9:29 has "abrogated" other verses asking for good behaviour toward dhimmis, states that "abrogation" could be understood either in its terminological sense or its literal sense. If "abrogation" is understood in its terminological sense, Muslims should deal with dhimmis strictly in a good and decent manner.[35]
Javed Ahmed Ghamidi writes in Mizan that certain directives of the Qur’an were specific only to the Prophet Muhammad against peoples of his times, besides other directives, the campaign involved asking the polytheists of Arabia for submission to Islam as a condition for exoneration and the others for jizya and submission to the political authority of the Muslims for exemption from death punishment and for military protection as the dhimmis of the Muslims. Therefore, after the Prophet and his companions, there is no concept in Islam obliging Muslims to wage war for propagation or implementation of Islam.[36][37]
The Shia jurist Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi states in the selection of the Tafsir Nemooneh that the main philosophy of jizya is that it is only a financial aid to those Muslims who are in the charge of safeguarding the security of the state and Dhimmis' lives and properties on their behalf[38]

Bat Ye'or on the topic:

http://www.dhimmi.org/LectureE6.html

DonnaMaria
09-11-2010, 08:04 PM
wow.............

I was wondering about a lot of this stuff..........and I googled things all night..........

if all this is true.......I stand corrected about moderate muslims

they simply cannot possibly exist............

thank you for posting this.

i am beside myself...........

Jonlion
09-11-2010, 08:20 PM
I am not sure how to take this. I am aware that the Qu'ran does that state they that should respect people of the "book". So they should respect Christians and Jews.

They can and did tax them extra you would be treated as a sub citizen. They can also be tolerant. Some of these issues were behind the Crusades.

I do believe also the Qu'ran encourages Muslims to live in Islamic states -and not in ones that governments is of a different faith (Dar All Islam) hence why many left Sicily in the 10/11th Centuries. Many also stayed.

I work with, deal with and talk too many many Muslims and none I have met are extremist but all quite affable and good people. Many also practice very "godly ways". We know this is possible because we were wired to worship the Lord - they have just veered off.

What though is an important factor is one can be a Muslim but seemingly do nothing to pursue God - they can do very little but will still always consider themselves Muslims. Then after a pilgrimage to Mecca they are meant to then start "clean living". The thing about Christianity is that you have always got to keep pursueing otherwise you are not a Christian. Its the choice to follow Jesus that makes us Christians - we are not born to it like Muslims. It is a big difference.

I only want to urge that we are nearly all Gentiles and was barred from knowing God - with Jesus that all changed and we are so blessed and honoured in that grace and we should earnestly pray that others who do not know him, can by the holy spirit come to him. They need him as much as any of us.

Play The Man
09-11-2010, 09:38 PM
True

Bonnie
09-12-2010, 12:00 AM
I've been hearing these statements for years, especially from those who have converted to Christianity from Islam. The only peace that Muslims want is the peace that exists when everyone who disagrees with them is dead.

So this brings us to one of two possibilities involving "moderate" Muslims:
1. They are liars.
2. They are bad Muslims and not true converts to the faith.

Once you understand the nature of Islam, then you realize that the only "good" faithful Muslims are the Jihadists and Extremists.

From what that clip showed, Nate, you've got it in one!

I'm beginning to think instead of bombing or blowing us up again (at least for now), their plan is to steadily creep into our society under the guise of being tolerant peaceful muslims buying up land, building mosques, tricking us into complacency, and using our freedoms of speech and religion against us to do it.

It's so frustrating!

Jonlion
09-12-2010, 12:24 AM
This is quite a scary video - I would like to clarify that later passages supersede the earlier ones.
B
Now it does frighten me and I want to preserve my country and culture BUT I think we can't meet this with panic and hate.

I will always cling to my faith and kneel at that cross - and if Islam took over England I will live under them and respect their rules. Would not be my preferred option - hell no but I'll take it.

However they can dictate to me all the rules they want but in that situation I will become a MARTYR for my belief. If that offends them then I shall die a martyr death professing my love for Jesus Christ.

If Islam does take over the world it can only be through God's will and perhaps it will be the Antichrist and herein we will all have our faith tested.

I pray we all get through. I would just say don't fear, don't be anxious - we are safe in Christ no matter how grisly our worldly life might be

Play The Man
09-12-2010, 12:52 AM
From what that clip showed, Nate, you've got it in one!

I'm beginning to think instead of bombing or blowing us up again (at least for now), their plan is to steadily creep into our society under the guise of being tolerant peaceful muslims buying up land, building mosques, tricking us into complacency, and using our freedoms of speech and religion against us to do.

It's so frustrating!


You are correct. Islam is not trying to conquer Europe and America with an army; they are trying to conquer us with immigration, high birthrate and conversion.

" 'We're the ones who will change you,' the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. 'Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children.' "

or this quote from Libya's Qadafi

Today, we are correcting human history from here, in Timbuktu.

We have fifty million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe - without swords, without guns, without conquests. The fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.

Allah mobilizes the Muslim nation of Turkey, and adds it to the European Union. That's another 50 million Muslims. There will be 100 million Muslims in Europe. Albania, which is a Muslim country, has already entered the EU. Bosnia, which is a Muslim country, has already entered the EU. 50 percent of its citizens are Muslims.

You should read America Alone by Mark Steyn

NateR
09-12-2010, 01:52 AM
You are correct. Islam is not trying to conquer Europe and America with an army; they are trying to conquer us with immigration, high birthrate and conversion.



or this quote from Libya's Qadafi



You should read America Alone by Mark Steyn

Yep, it's called a "population bomb." Muslims move into developed nations and start reproducing like rabbits.

It's not politics, it's simple math. If you take 100 American couples and they each have 1 child. Then take 50 legal Muslim immigrant couples who each have 4 children on US soil.

Within 18 years, those 200 Americans have only added 100 more voters to their numbers for a total of 300 voters. However, those 100 naturalized Muslims have more than doubled their numbers by adding 200 new voters to their ranks, for a total of 300 voters.

Now assume those numbers don't change, because American children are still being taught that it is "responsible parenting" to have fewer children when they get married. So those 100 children from generation 2 have only produced a maximum of 25 offspring (under the ideal condition of there being exactly 50 males and 50 females) for generation 3. The 200 Muslims from generation 2 continue to produce 4 children per couple and so they have 400 children.

With this scenario, the number of American voters after the next 18 years is 325. The number of Muslim voters skyrockets to 700. Within 36 years, the Muslim minority becomes the majority in the nation with population numbers more than double that of those who used to be the majority in this country.

Using this simplified illustration, you can see how native born Americans can quickly become politically irrelevant in their own nation within just a few generations.

DonnaMaria
09-12-2010, 02:19 AM
my head is spinning.....

i have parents in my class who are muslim. students who are muslim.

i am really, really shaken.

Vizion
09-12-2010, 03:10 AM
Lesson learned: don't trust a Muslim.

adamt
09-12-2010, 03:44 AM
Yep, it's called a "population bomb." Muslims move into developed nations and start reproducing like rabbits.

It's not politics, it's simple math. If you take 100 American couples and they each have 1 child. Then take 50 legal Muslim immigrant couples who each have 4 children on US soil.

Within 18 years, those 200 Americans have only added 100 more voters to their numbers for a total of 300 voters. However, those 100 naturalized Muslims have more than doubled their numbers by adding 200 new voters to their ranks, for a total of 300 voters.

Now assume those numbers don't change, because American children are still being taught that it is "responsible parenting" to have fewer children when they get married. So those 100 children from generation 2 have only produced a maximum of 25 offspring (under the ideal condition of there being exactly 50 males and 50 females) for generation 3. The 200 Muslims from generation 2 continue to produce 4 children per couple and so they have 400 children.

With this scenario, the number of American voters after the next 18 years is 325. The number of Muslim voters skyrockets to 700. Within 36 years, the Muslim minority becomes the majority in the nation with population numbers more than double that of those who used to be the majority in this country.

Using this simplified illustration, you can see how native born Americans can quickly become politically irrelevant in their own nation within just a few generations.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCp4r4pep9k

adamt
09-12-2010, 03:45 AM
Yep, it's called a "population bomb." Muslims move into developed nations and start reproducing like rabbits.

It's not politics, it's simple math. If you take 100 American couples and they each have 1 child. Then take 50 legal Muslim immigrant couples who each have 4 children on US soil.

Within 18 years, those 200 Americans have only added 100 more voters to their numbers for a total of 300 voters. However, those 100 naturalized Muslims have more than doubled their numbers by adding 200 new voters to their ranks, for a total of 300 voters.

Now assume those numbers don't change, because American children are still being taught that it is "responsible parenting" to have fewer children when they get married. So those 100 children from generation 2 have only produced a maximum of 25 offspring (under the ideal condition of there being exactly 50 males and 50 females) for generation 3. The 200 Muslims from generation 2 continue to produce 4 children per couple and so they have 400 children.

With this scenario, the number of American voters after the next 18 years is 325. The number of Muslim voters skyrockets to 700. Within 36 years, the Muslim minority becomes the majority in the nation with population numbers more than double that of those who used to be the majority in this country.

Using this simplified illustration, you can see how native born Americans can quickly become politically irrelevant in their own nation within just a few generations.


i'm doing my part.... i've got three and another one on the way :wink:

NateR
09-12-2010, 03:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCp4r4pep9k

The good news for America in all this is that we will see it happen to Europe before it happens here. Maybe then Americans will wake up and find a way to stop this. Although, by then it might not be possible to do so without bloodshed; but whatever it takes to preserve freedom in this country, that's what we need to do.

Unfortunately, all the stupid, tolerant, politically-correct Americans are going to fight it and will ultimately help the Muslims destroy our nation. They are just as much of an enemy of America as the Muslims.

adamt
09-12-2010, 07:59 AM
The good news for America in all this is that we will see it happen to Europe before it happens here. Maybe then Americans will wake up and find a way to stop this. Although, by then it might not be possible to do so without bloodshed; but whatever it takes to preserve freedom in this country, that's what we need to do.

Unfortunately, all the stupid, tolerant, politically-correct Americans are going to fight it and will ultimately help the Muslims destroy our nation. They are just as much of an enemy of America as the Muslims.

that's a very good point nate, i hadn't really thought about it that way

i tend to believe Christ will maintain His church somewhere and right now i think the USA has as good a chance as any, so that gives me hope


i also wonder what socialism vs muslim would look like, unfort. i think they are working together right now

i also wonder what muslims vs illegal mexicans would look like


the marxists said a long time ago that they would own our country by sneaking in, and indoctrinating the youth, and i think they have, i think if people could somehow see clearly, they would be amazed at how far off they/we really are, i wish there was a vid that would show that as well as the islam vid did

Vizion
09-12-2010, 08:51 AM
My prayers go out for the UK...some there are trying to preserve British culture. Watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP-uxnTj_-Y&feature=watch_response

Blade
09-12-2010, 01:44 PM
The good news for America in all this is that we will see it happen to Europe before it happens here. Maybe then Americans will wake up and find a way to stop this.

Yeah cheers for those comforting words Nate, lol

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 02:48 PM
I think that first we have to accept that just like half the Christians call themselves Christians, but will contradict commandments given by the Bible to satisfy their own emotions...or not really read scirpture, or only be familiar with the New Testament...and bassically, it boils down to...them not really being Christian...the same is bound to be true for Islam...many will have been brought up in the culture, just like some of us who are not converts but brought up by converts

I have no idea if there is an interpretive law stating the later the passage, the more worth...I find this hard to believe because although being one book by one author...it was also supposedly written all at the same time the reason for this is, that The Prophet was writing down the words of an Angelic Host....its...for want of a better word, a transcription of a monologue. If The Quran itself does not say there is more weighting on later chapters, then you might find its a piece of Doctrine invented by the Islamic Leaders to inspire people to war during Islams early spread.

Obviously, point two should come as no suprise. We are commanded to evangelize and spread the word to all nations also....but Sharia law, as a State Governed thing is not a must. Islamic States, and Islamic Republics are two different things. Turkey is an Islamic State, majority, and politically, BUT it is not an Islamic Republic. In an Islamic Republic the State is run by the Religious, and Religious Law becomes State Law...this is not how it is in all Muslim Countries...infact...the majority are not Islamic Republics

Creeping Sharia is true though. I think from an Islamic point of view, a political revolution goes through stages, the first being majority Islam, the second being the introduction of Sharia, the third being an islamic state, and the forth a fully fledged Islamic Republic. We saw the introduction of certain aspects of Sharia last year in England, to govern the Islamic population on Civil matters like marriage and devorce I believe.

As for the third point...that sort of blood money isnt limited to Islam, and we all know it. I came across some extremely disturbing news about some of the pop concerts organized for creating funds for Africa recently. :unsure-1: about how such funds havent ended up where they were due but went to governments and financed war efforts. Just like you wouldnt assume a Charity in England is always christian, even if its run by so called Christians...I wouldnt say the other would be any less true. However, certainly in those Islamic poeple I have seen, there is a hope that you will convert, they do use any excuse to try and persaude you...I do have my thoughts that several of my closest Islamic friends, were only my friends in the hope that they could win me over to their faith :rolleyes:

I've read parts of the Quran, but certainly not all of it. I actually do own my own copy, it was given to me, by an Islamic friend :laugh:

Blade
09-12-2010, 02:55 PM
an Islamic friend :laugh:

Oxymoron.

NateR
09-12-2010, 03:03 PM
I have no idea if there is an interpretive law stating the later the passage, the more worth...I find this hard to believe because although being one book by one author...it was also supposedly written all at the same time the reason for this is, that The Prophet was writing down the words of an Angelic Host....its...for want of a better word, a transcription of a monologue.

Well, Muhammed was illiterate, so he never wrote anything down. The Quran was passed along verbally for centuries until finally being written down by a Catholic Priest, according to one account, or a group of Jewish Scholars, according to another. In both accounts, the Priest/Scholars were kidnapped and forced to transcribe the book under the threat of death (and if Muslim tactics today are any indication, they were most likely still killed after completing the task).

From what I've read, I believe the Jewish Scholars story might have the most truth to it, because supposedly the entire numerology of the Quran is filled with references to the number 19. According to Jewish Kabbalah, the number 19 is the number used to represent lies and deception. So the Jewish Scholars filled the book with clues to its illegitimacy.

I can't confirm that with online sources, but regardless we know Islam to be a lie because it denies the deity of Jesus Christ. That automatically makes it an anti-Christ religion, thus we can know for sure that the Quran's true author is Satan and Muslims are followers of none other than Satan himself.

NateR
09-12-2010, 03:11 PM
I do have my thoughts that several of my closest Islamic friends, were only my friends in the hope that they could win me over to their faith :rolleyes:

Well if you've told these people that you have no intention of ever converting to Islam, then you can take comfort in the fact that those "Islamic friends" are now just planning your death in the slowest, most painful way possible. But that's to be expected when you befriend Satan's followers.

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 03:11 PM
1) Well, Muhammed was illiterate, so he never wrote anything down. The Quran was passed along verbally for centuries until finally being written down

2) it denies the deity of Jesus Christ. That automatically makes it an anti-Christ religion, thus we can know for sure that the Quran's true author is Satan and Muslims are followers of none other than Satan himself.

1) Not according to Islam (I have a book on His life and Death also...from the same Islamic Friend :laugh: )

2) At best its a complete Fabrication of lies, at worst it actually happened to the guy, except the Host was not who he claimed to be...that for me is an even more terrifying possibility...supposing The Prophet isnt telling any lies himself...supposing he really did meet with something claiming to be an Angel of GOD, and he wrote down, accurately, what was said to him.

Secondly...Jews deny Christ also...lest you forget


Something else. Islam IS going to be a big and mighty Nation...and the GOD of Abraham Promised that to the Mother who was abandoned in the middle of the desert with her Son. His Father was Abraham, and She was the maidservent of Sarai.

If you want me to find the passage I can. I think GOD will proove to use Islam, in the same way he used the Philistines, and enemies of Ancient Israel. He preserved them to punish and to push her back in the right direction. Islam will probably turn out to do the same for the Church I suppose...they already did once before.

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 03:18 PM
Well if you've told these people that you have no intention of ever converting to Islam, then you can take comfort in the fact that those "Islamic friends" are now just planning your death in the slowest, most painful way possible. But that's to be expected when you befriend Satan's followers.

:laugh: Unlike Christians, they dont give up that easily Nathan :laugh:

She now lives in Oman, and is married, and...still in touch with me.

Do you honnestly think she is the only one trying to Evangelize.

:ninja:

But thanks for the vote of confidence...People like you speak the truth...but its people like me that reconcile it. :wink:

The old adage "keep your friends close, but your enemies Closer" is completely lost on you isnt it. In all truthfulness, you would have been really mean to her, frightened her away, and in so doing, possibly condemned her. I'm sure you would have told her the truth...once...and forcefully.

I've been praying for ten years so far. I sow the seeds, HE Reaps...you burn your Quran...or whatever.

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 03:20 PM
Oxymoron.

I'll let you into a secret Blade...the vast majoirity of my Islamic Friends are Female.

Thats a distinct advantage...you do realize that they were not supposed to even talk to me. :ninja:

:laugh:

NateR
09-12-2010, 03:25 PM
Secondly...Jews deny Christ also...lest you forget


Only because GOD wanted them to. Their denial of Christ is temporary and is a part of their judgement from GOD for the rebellion of earlier generations. Their eyes WILL be reopened and a remnant of them WILL come to faith in Jesus Christ. That's a guarantee.

The prophecy of GOD making the descendants of Ishmael a great nation is for the Arabs, not the Muslims. That prophecy was given thousands of years before Muhammed was even born:

Genesis 21:18
"Arise, lift up the lad (Ishmael) and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation."

Now, it still might mean that Islam will be the force used to fulfill that prophecy, but let's not get any ideas that GOD has ever promised anything to the Muslims.

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 03:29 PM
Only because GOD wanted them to. Their denial of Christ is temporary and is a part of their judgement from GOD for the rebellion of earlier generations. Their eyes WILL be reopened and a remnant of them WILL come to faith in Jesus Christ. That's a guarantee.

The prophecy of GOD making the descendants of Ishmael a great nation is for the Arabs, not the Muslims. That prophecy was given thousands of years before Muhammed was even born:

Genesis 21:18


Now, it still might mean that Islam will be the force used to fulfill that prophecy, but let's not get any ideas that GOD has ever promised anything to the Muslims.

That looks like a promise of "a great nation" to me. They have a family tree that goes back to Ishmail

As for the Jews...technically speaking, only a "remenent" will be saved. Not all of them. The jews of today wont have their eyes opened unless the Second Coming happens within our lifetime...

The Quran might give the Islamist the excuse to lie...but the Bible gives no such counsil to you or I.

Shall we next say WHY GOD will save a rememnant of Israel? I imagine you might leave something very significant out of the answer to that also.

NateR
09-12-2010, 03:35 PM
Their eyes WILL be reopened and a remnant of them WILL come to faith in Jesus Christ. That's a guarantee.

As for the Jews...technically speaking, only a "remenent" will be saved. Not all of them. The jews of today wont have their eyes opened unless the Second Coming happens within our lifetime...

The Quran might give the Islamist the excuse to lie...but the Bible gives no such counsil to you or I.

Shall we next say WHY GOD will save a rememnant of Israel? I imagine you might leave something very significant out of the answer to that also.

I know, that's why I said that "a remnant of them WILL come to faith in Jesus Christ." Try reading every word in my post before accusing me of lying, Dave. :rolleyes:

Of course, I didn't technically use the word "remenent," but that's not a real word. :tongue0011:

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 03:38 PM
I know, that's why I said that "a remnant of them WILL come to faith in Jesus Christ." Try reading every word in my post before accusing me of lying, Dave. :rolleyes:

Of course, I didn't technically use the word "remenent," but that's not a real word. :tongue0011:

:blink: do you promise you didnt re-edit that :ninja:

:ashamed:

NateR
09-12-2010, 03:41 PM
:blink: do you promise you didnt re-edit that :ninja:

:ashamed:

I didn't edit it. You're just angry and reading only what you want to read out of my comments.

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 03:47 PM
I didn't edit it. You're just angry and reading only what you want to read out of my comments.

:ninja:

Okay. I believe you :rolleyes:

Sorry :unsure-1:

But I refuse to give up on my Islamic Friends...I still think they might one day become Christians :frantics: It helps that they are Women...I dont have oat to do with Islamic Males (well maybe one or two I did, but I'm not in contact with them now)

I have absolutely nothing to fear. She still believes she can change me, I still believe GOD will change her. Even if she changed her mind...I assure you I wouldnt be the first one they murder...are you kidding...She isnt supposed to have any contact with anyone like me...never was!

I'm not skeered coz I know there is nothing she can say that will make me adopt Islam. On the contrary, listening to her try...I can learn A LOT. :laugh:

We werent all made for espionarge :tongue0011:

Blade
09-12-2010, 04:26 PM
I'll let you into a secret Blade...the vast majoirity of my Islamic Friends are Female.

Thats a distinct advantage...

:laugh:

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc431/mwnn1/8e42b7da9c10b2029d.jpg

Tyburn
09-12-2010, 05:41 PM
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc431/mwnn1/8e42b7da9c10b2029d.jpg

:angry:

:laugh:

rearnakedchoke
09-12-2010, 08:31 PM
coming from an islamic country (not canada) i have seen first hand the way Christians are treated by muslims ... my parents have a very strong dislike for muslims as they have seen more than me ... i have no doubt that islam in it's purest form is a religion of domination and looking to take over the world, heck i have heard it first hand from muslims that domination is their plan ... so moderate muslims to me mean ones who think domination and not say it

Jonlion
09-16-2010, 12:08 AM
Dave,

Please stay friends with these people of Islam and through patience you can bring these people to Christ.

Has anyone read Jonah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

Tyburn
09-16-2010, 12:40 AM
Dave,

Please stay friends with these people of Islam and through patience you can bring these people to Christ.

Has anyone read Jonah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

I'll keep trying as long as I live....oh...and what about The guy who argued with the Angels to try and stop the distruction of Sodom...he was like...."if ten good people live there, wont you spare the city for those ten????" That passage is beautiful to me...because he reasons with GOD and he reminds him that before death people can still be saved, and that even if the whole place goes to shyte...so long as one person is still praying...all is not lost...I dont know...its an epic bit of scripture for me :laugh: