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rockdawg21
08-21-2010, 07:57 PM
This is crazy stuff!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201236100;_ylt=AszXLgNfx0LSb9el016GQrCs0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTNrbXAxcGJvBGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAxMDA4MjEvMD g1OTkyMDEyMzYxMDAEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM4 BHBvcwM1BHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5faGVhZGxpbmVfbG lzdARzbGsDbWV4aWNhbnBvbGlj
Mexican Police Help Murder Their Own Mayor

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/p/time_logo_101.jpg

By IOAN GRILLO / MEXICO CITY Ioan Grillo / Mexico City Sat Aug 21, 4:30 am ET

The murder scarred a part of Mexico that was supposed to be reasonably safe from violence and crime. Santiago is a picturesque town of waterfalls, colonial churches and holiday homes for the rich. Its mayor Edelmiro Cavazos was a blue-eyed 38-year old, educated in the United States. But it seems that no corner of the country is shielded from the relentless rain of drug-related bloodshed.

The killers came for Mayor Cavazos in the early hours of Aug. 16 when seven SUV's rolled up and men in police uniforms descended on his palatial home. Servants stood back terrified, as their boss was forced away at gunpoint. On Aug. 18, his corpse was dumped on a nearby road. There was a mercy of sorts in the manner of his killing - shot dead with two bullets in the head and one in the chest, and spared the mutilation and rape inflicted on so many other victims. The following day, hundreds of residents wept over his coffin in Santiago's central plaza, lining the stairs up to the church with candles and holding signs calling for peace. (See pictures of Culiac[a {a}]n, the home of Mexico's drug-trafficking industry.) (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/time/wl_time/storytext/08599201236100/37295622/SIG=11vn0j9gj/*http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1827101,00.html)

Then on Aug. 20, more disturbing news broke. State agents arrested six of the mayor's own police officers and said they confessed to involvement in the murder. The suspects had been working for a drug cartel that is fighting a bloody turf war with its rival throughout northeast Mexico, state prosecutors said. Another four alleged gunmen were arrested with automatic rifles and grenade launchers in their possession and accused of being involved in the plot. The revelation had very concerning implications: in Mexico's drug war, officials are now killing officials.

Cavazos - a member of President Felipe Calderon's conservative National Action Party - was the latest in a series of politicians who have been killed or kidnapped this year. In June, a commando group of gunmen assassinated the front-running gubernatorial candidate in the neighboring state of Tamaulipas. In May, a former presidential candidate was kidnapped from his ranch in Central Mexico and is still missing. A mayoral candidate and state legislator have also been murdered. Following the latest slaying, President Calderon said that Mexico's very democracy is under threat. "The death of Edelmiro, makes us angry and obliges us to double our efforts in the struggle against these criminal cowards that attack citizens," he said.

But despite calls for national unity to face this challenge, Mexico's politicians keep slinging mud and trading mutual recriminations over who is to blame. Opposition deputies say that Calderon's policy of sending the entire army after cartels has been catastrophic, inflaming turf wars and shoot-outs. Since Calderon took office in December 2006, there have been an incredible 28,000 drug-related killings, it was recently revealed. Calderon has answered back, challenging the opposition to come up with a better idea. (See pictures of Mexico's drug wars.) (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/time/wl_time/storytext/08599201236100/37295622/SIG=11v2700dg/*http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1651420,00.html)

When the president called for a dialog with Congress this week to work out a national security plan, key leaders in two major parties snubbed him and said they had other engagements. An irritated Calderon then said that soldiers would stay on the streets until his last day in office in 2012. Politicians could not even manage to unify over the latest tragedy. As National Action Party militants prepared posters lamenting the death of Mayor Cavazos, the opposition accused them of political opportunism. (See pictures of Mexico City's police fighting crime.) (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/time/wl_time/storytext/08599201236100/37295622/SIG=11vnovr7d/*http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1811983,00.html)

With Mexico's justice system failing to clear up the facts surrounding the the vast majority of killings, it is unclear exactly why politicians are being targeted. Federal agents say that gangsters are desperate after so many drug busts and arrests and are lashing back at the system in the hope the army will be sent back to the barracks. However, the government has also conceded there are cases of corruption with elected officials themselves in cahoots with drug gangs. In May, police arrested former Cancun mayor and gubernatorial candidate Greg Sanchez on racketeering and drug smuggling charges. On Aug. 19, gunmen attacked the judge in charge of Sanchez's case, killing his bodyguard. Calderon responded that Mexico should consider judges with protected identities to handle drug-related cases. Officials have also come under fire for attacking corrupt officers. Following an attack on the Public Safety Secretary of Michoacan this year, an arrested cartel member said she has been targeted for trying to shake up the state police force, threatening officers on their payroll.

There are fears that that many more officials could be in danger. Sen. Ramon Galindo, the former mayor of murder capital Ciudad Juarez, said he knew of dozens of mayors who had received threats. "It is clear that organized crime groups are not only threatening but are also doing great harm to local politicians," Galindo said. Back in Santiago, the fallen mayor's mother Rubinia Leal de Cavazos told reporters that her son had feared attacks. "I told him to watch out for traitors and to leave his job," she said, shielding her tearful eyes with sunglasses. "He never said he was scared. I hugged him and told him I loved him."

NateR
08-22-2010, 01:49 AM
Yet another reason that we need to go airlift out the Great Wall of China and plunk it down between us and Mexico.

Bonnie
08-22-2010, 02:41 AM
Their congress seems about as effective as ours in working together for the betterment of their country. :rolleyes:

They are already kidnapping people over here in the U.S. so I don't see a far leap for them to start being brazen enough to start having shootouts on this side of the border.

I wonder what it's going to take for "a" President and Congress to finally secure our borders. 9/11 apparently wasn't enough of an incentive. :wink:

Buzzard
08-22-2010, 02:40 PM
A possible solution to the Mexican drug cartel problems would be to legalize and tax drugs here in the U.S., reducing or eliminating the cash flow from the U.S. to these cartels.

With the revenue from the taxes we could bolster our border protection, keep from clogging our prisons with drug offenders and offer treatment instead of prison time.

That's just one idea for a solution. What solutions do others on here propose?

NateR
08-22-2010, 03:34 PM
What solutions do others on here propose?

A border fence or wall is a pretty effective solution. Bottleneck the traffic across border and make it easier for the Border Patrol to do their job. Definitely makes more sense than having the government profit from people destroying their lives with drugs.

Also, institute a mandatory 5-year prison sentence for any American citizen hiring an illegal alien. 5-years per alien. Eliminating the jobs for illegal aliens and you eliminate the incentive for people to illegally enter the US.

The solutions to this problem are easy and they always have been.

Bonnie
08-22-2010, 04:38 PM
A possible solution to the Mexican drug cartel problems would be to legalize and tax drugs here in the U.S., reducing or eliminating the cash flow from the U.S. to these cartels.

With the revenue from the taxes we could bolster our border protection, keep from clogging our prisons with drug offenders and offer treatment instead of prison time.

That's just one idea for a solution. What solutions do others on here propose?

I see major problems with the solution you suggested. And, I don't believe legalizing these types of drugs here would affect the Mexican drug cartel at all other than to increase their business. I'm curious, what drugs would you legalize?

I just think legalizing drugs would lead to a whole host of other problems and make the ones we already have even worse.

I'm not sure what the solution is to these cartels and all the havoc they reap. As long as you have people using drugs (legal or otherwise), there are going to be individuals and groups finding ways to profit from it keeping the cycle going.

Bonnie
08-22-2010, 04:52 PM
A border fence or wall is a pretty effective solution. Bottleneck the traffic across border and make it easier for the Border Patrol to do their job. Definitely makes more sense than having the government profit from people destroying their lives with drugs.

Also, institute a mandatory 5-year prison sentence for any American citizen hiring an illegal alien. 5-years per alien. Eliminating the jobs for illegal aliens and you eliminate the incentive for people to illegally enter the US.

The solutions to this problem are easy and they always have been.

That's what it's going to take, I think, harsh measures, to get employers to stop hiring illegals. Until we start getting tough, and I mean serious tough, on employers and illegals, nothing will change. I think we should have some type of physical barrier, and I also think we should have armed people guarding it and our borders.

rockdawg21
08-22-2010, 08:13 PM
That's what it's going to take, I think, harsh measures, to get employers to stop hiring illegals. Until we start getting tough, and I mean serious tough, on employers and illegals, nothing will change. I think we should have some type of physical barrier, and I also think we should have armed people guarding it and our borders.
We have the most lucrative drug corridor on the planet. It should be defended. If anybody's going to sell drugs in the United States, it might as well be legitimate and honorable companies like Pfizer :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone

I doubt too many people would want to cross if they were faced with this:
http://www.panmunjomtour.com/english/dmz/dmz1/dmz1_content2.jpg
http://www.korea.net/cheditor40_asp/cheditor/attach/200952215334251375.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/03/uk_korean_war/img/6.jpg
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/northkorea/images/dmz-images-framed/south-korean-soldier.jpg
http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/foreigndesk/2006/10/09/SOUTH_KOREA_KOREAS_DMZ_SEL105200x235.JPG

County Mike
08-22-2010, 10:23 PM
Mexico is one of the most corrupt nations on the planet. Is it any wonder we would like a more secure border between us? When I was running the paintball business, Mexico was one of the only countries I would not ship to. Far too often, the Mexican postal workers would just steal the packages. Even UPS and the USPS would only insure packages to the border. Once it crossed into Mexico, too bad - so sad.

Buzzard
08-22-2010, 11:28 PM
A border fence or wall is a pretty effective solution. Bottleneck the traffic across border and make it easier for the Border Patrol to do their job. Definitely makes more sense than having the government profit from people destroying their lives with drugs.

Why shouldn't Americans be able to legally use drugs in the same way that they are legally allowed to consume alcohol, smoke tobacco, and eat unhealthy foods? No one would force anyone, you included, to take or ingest anything that you didn't wish to. I personally wish the government wouldn't tell me what I can and cannot consume. I'm for smaller government, not bigger and more intrusive. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol, and it's not working with drugs. All it is doing is filling up our prison system and treating users as criminals instead of allowing them to seek help if they so wanted. I believe that drugs can be used responsibly in the same way that alcohol can be.

If you take away the profit motive of marijuana for instance, you could take the money out of the cartels hands and instead use the tax revenue from it to do many positive things. Besides the revenue from the smokeable parts of it, the hemp fibers and most of the remaining parts of the plant can be used for numerous other things, especially paper products. Hemp fiber grows quicker and produces better quality paper goods.

With the added taxed drug revenue, you could open up more treatment centers where people could get the help that is needed/wanted without the fear of people not seeking help due to the threat of prison. What they did in Portugal could work here.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/greenwald_whitepaper.pdf

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/03/14/portugal

1. I see major problems with the solution you suggested. And, I don't believe legalizing these types of drugs here would affect the Mexican drug cartel at all other than to increase their business. I'm curious, what drugs would you legalize?

2. I just think legalizing drugs would lead to a whole host of other problems and make the ones we already have even worse.

3. I'm not sure what the solution is to these cartels and all the havoc they reap. As long as you have people using drugs (legal or otherwise), there are going to be individuals and groups finding ways to profit from it keeping the cycle going.

1. What problems do you see? If people could legally buy their drugs in a sanctioned dispensary, why would they need/want to buy it illegally from the drug cartels? If there wasn't a demand for the drugs here, the cartels wouldn't be supplying them. Take the money away from the cartels and use it to benefit our country. It's a billion plus dollar a year industry, and that's just for marijuana alone.

To start I'd use the Portugal example and work from there.

2. Do you think that the so called war on drugs is actually working? I don't and I think it's about time something different is done about it. Offer treatment instead of prison is one example of being proactive rather than reactive.

3. If you make them legal here, the cartels drug business dries up. It would clear out our prisons and offer many folks a chance to seek help without the fear of losing everything and serving time in overcrowded prisons where they release violent people because of the overcrowding situation caused by the incarceration of non-violent drug users. Now, I'm not saying all drug users are non-violent, just to be clear.

Again, prohibition didn't work and our current policies aren't working now.

Thanks both for your replies.

J.B.
08-22-2010, 11:47 PM
The argument for Pot has been there for a long time, but legalizing cocaine/heroin/crystal meth is absolutely ridiculous.

ufcfan2
08-22-2010, 11:50 PM
A border fence or wall is a pretty effective solution. Bottleneck the traffic across border and make it easier for the Border Patrol to do their job. Definitely makes more sense than having the government profit from people destroying their lives with drugs.

Also, institute a mandatory 5-year prison sentence for any American citizen hiring an illegal alien. 5-years per alien. Eliminating the jobs for illegal aliens and you eliminate the incentive for people to illegally enter the US.

The solutions to this problem are easy and they always have been.

This.
I'm sure there are other simple solutions that along with this would help curve this issue.

NateR
08-23-2010, 01:38 AM
Why shouldn't Americans be able to legally use drugs in the same way that they are legally allowed to consume alcohol, smoke tobacco, and eat unhealthy foods? No one would force anyone, you included, to take or ingest anything that you didn't wish to. I personally wish the government wouldn't tell me what I can and cannot consume. I'm for smaller government, not bigger and more intrusive. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol, and it's not working with drugs. All it is doing is filling up our prison system and treating users as criminals instead of allowing them to seek help if they so wanted. I believe that drugs can be used responsibly in the same way that alcohol can be.

If you take away the profit motive of marijuana for instance, you could take the money out of the cartels hands and instead use the tax revenue from it to do many positive things. Besides the revenue from the smokeable parts of it, the hemp fibers and most of the remaining parts of the plant can be used for numerous other things, especially paper products. Hemp fiber grows quicker and produces better quality paper goods.

With the added taxed drug revenue, you could open up more treatment centers where people could get the help that is needed/wanted without the fear of people not seeking help due to the threat of prison. What they did in Portugal could work here.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/greenwald_whitepaper.pdf

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/03/14/portugal



1. What problems do you see? If people could legally buy their drugs in a sanctioned dispensary, why would they need/want to buy it illegally from the drug cartels? If there wasn't a demand for the drugs here, the cartels wouldn't be supplying them. Take the money away from the cartels and use it to benefit our country. It's a billion plus dollar a year industry, and that's just for marijuana alone.

To start I'd use the Portugal example and work from there.

2. Do you think that the so called war on drugs is actually working? I don't and I think it's about time something different is done about it. Offer treatment instead of prison is one example of being proactive rather than reactive.

3. If you make them legal here, the cartels drug business dries up. It would clear out our prisons and offer many folks a chance to seek help without the fear of losing everything and serving time in overcrowded prisons where they release violent people because of the overcrowding situation caused by the incarceration of non-violent drug users. Now, I'm not saying all drug users are non-violent, just to be clear.

Again, prohibition didn't work and our current policies aren't working now.

Thanks both for your replies.

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that most, if not all, of the drugs in America are being supplied by the Mexican drug cartels. Do you have any data to back that up?

What about drugs like crystal meth which can be created using items that you find in any grocery store? None of those ingredients are illegal, so how exactly would the government tax something like meth? Would you propose the government hiking up taxes on the ingredients? Because that would punish the non-drug users as well (to include farmers who use anhydrous ammonia to fertilize their crops).

Then there is marijuana which can be grown locally. Do you know for sure if the majority of marijuana being used in the US is being supplied by Mexican drug cartels or are you just assuming it?

Personally, I can see both sides of the issue when it comes to legalizing marijuana. However, like JB said, legalizing drugs like cocaine, crack, meth, acid, heroin, etc. is just crazy and can not be justified with any amount of tax money.

Buzzard
08-23-2010, 02:48 AM
Your entire argument is based on the assumption that most, if not all, of the drugs in America are being supplied by the Mexican drug cartels. Do you have any data to back that up?

No, that is not my argument. That is you trying to put words in my mouth. Seriously, there is a lot of info out there showing how much drugs come through the southern border. I watched a show on Discovery I believe and the warehouse that held the confiscated drugs was stuffed, and that was only about 1 - 10% of what they believe got through in just that small area. Here's some info for you though.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/26/drug.trends/index.html

http://ftp.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34215.pdf


What about drugs like crystal meth which can be created using items that you find in any grocery store? None of those ingredients are illegal, so how exactly would the government tax something like meth? Would you propose the government hiking up taxes on the ingredients? Because that would punish the non-drug users as well (to include farmers who use anhydrous ammonia to fertilize their crops).

What about them. You could still have laws saying no meth labs. If the drugs were sold through a licensed dispensary, taxation wouldn't be a problem.



Then there is marijuana which can be grown locally. Do you know for sure if the majority of marijuana being used in the US is being supplied by Mexican drug cartels or are you just assuming it?

I never stated anything of the sort. That's you making assumptions again. Would you be willing to have unhealthy food made illegal, or do you think that you should be able to decide what to put into your system?


Personally, I can see both sides of the issue when it comes to legalizing marijuana. However, like JB said, legalizing drugs like cocaine, crack, meth, acid, heroin, etc. is just crazy and can not be justified with any amount of tax money.

I disagree. Did you read any of the links in regard to Portugal? Did you read that since the law change, HIV rates dropped drastically, more people entered treatment programs etc.? I've read that treating drug addiction is cheaper than locking the people up in prison.

I can understand your skepticism and unwillingness to be willing to try a new approach. What we have now isn't working. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean that everyone is going to flock to using it. As it is now, alcohol and tobacco are legal yet there are many people who choose to not use these legal drugs. I believe the same would be true for the others. I believe that what Portugal is doing is a step in the right direction. If cocaine, heroin, and methamphetamine were made legal, would you immediately start doing them? I know I wouldn't. Education and treatment sure beat out incarceration in my book.

I have known and know people who have and do use recreational drugs responsibly, and really doubt that they would automatically start shooting up smack and doing lines if harder drugs were also legalized. I also know some ex hardcore drug users that no longer use but would have stopped earlier if given the chance and the opportunity for treatment. The money made from taxation imo would pay for treatment and be more cost effective than our current incarceration plan.

Bonnie
08-23-2010, 03:33 AM
I have known and know people who have and do use recreational drugs responsibly, and really doubt that they would automatically start shooting up smack and doing lines if harder drugs were also legalized. I also know some ex hardcore drug users that no longer use but would have stopped earlier if given the chance and the opportunity for treatment. The money made from taxation imo would pay for treatment and be more cost effective than our current incarceration plan.

Sounds like an oxymoron to me. :wink:

It sounds like you're assuming all of these addicted people will be responsible and seek treatment if they know it's out there, and you're also assuming they are going to stay clean, right? Because if they didn't and started using these "legal" drugs again, well, I think you can see where I'm going with my logic, can't you? There are a lot of Lindsay Lohans out there, Buzz, who think they don't have a problem because that's how addicts think--they've got everything under control, the drug isn't controlling them... :wink:

J.B.
08-23-2010, 03:56 AM
What about them. You could still have laws saying no meth labs. If the drugs were sold through a licensed dispensary, taxation wouldn't be a problem.

You would actually advocate selling Crystal Meth to people to rake in tax money? Do you have any idea what meth does to people? :blink:

If you are for smaller government, why would you want to create and fund another government system to deal with offering "treatment"? It's not like the prison system wouldn't still be full of these people all the time as they commit other crimes while in their drug induced hazes.

Instead of making it harder for tweakers to get that crap, you would be handing it right over to them and directly fueling the very problem we want to combat. Crackheads and smack-addicts are horrible enough but friggin tweakers are absolute worst of the bunch.

logrus
08-23-2010, 04:21 AM
Sounds like an oxymoron to me. :wink:

It sounds like you're assuming all of these addicted people will be responsible and seek treatment if they know it's out there, and you're also assuming they are going to stay clean, right? Because if they didn't and started using these "legal" drugs again, well, I think you can see where I'm going with my logic, can't you? There are a lot of Lindsay Lohans out there, Buzz, who think they don't have a problem because that's how addicts think--they've got everything under control, the drug isn't controlling them... :wink:

Well what are you implying, that users are clean for life under the system we have in place now lol.

:wink:

Bonnie
08-23-2010, 05:01 AM
Well what are you implying, that users are clean for life under the system we have in place now lol.

:wink:

No, of course not. :rolleyes: I'm just going by from what Buzzard is saying it sounds like he's assuming they will be one-timers through these treatment centers, and, like you point out, a lot of addicts will go through these places multiple times. He's thinking we make these drugs legal, tax them, and use the money for border fences and treatment centers, etc... I'm just saying he's giving people an awful lot of credit that they are going to do the right thing, get help, and stay straight, and nothing is that simple where humans are involved.

As JB pointed out, quite a few of these people will still end up in prison for committing other crimes because of these drugs. People are still going to rob to get cash for drugs, or steal someone else's drugs, or murder for it.

I give Buzzard credit for trying to think of a way to turn this around for some good, but this is not the answer. IMMHO :)

Neezar
08-23-2010, 11:05 AM
.....
I disagree. Did you read any of the links in regard to Portugal? Did you read that since the law change, HIV rates dropped drastically, more people entered treatment programs etc.? I've read that treating drug addiction is cheaper than locking the people up in prison.

....

I have known and know people who have and do use recreational drugs responsibly, and really doubt that they would automatically start shooting up smack and doing lines if harder drugs were also legalized. I also know some ex hardcore drug users that no longer use but would have stopped earlier if given the chance and the opportunity for treatment. The money made from taxation imo would pay for treatment and be more cost effective than our current incarceration plan.

Yes, I read it.

It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."


You are all for a smaller government, huh? This solution would create an ever greater government.

And I wonder why the research only talks about less use in teens? The people seeking treatment actually doubled. How do we know the number adult users didn't triple?

AND as the article mentions, the trends in high drug usuage go up and down anyway. Could this be what is contributing to the lesser teen usuage? You know teens dont want to do anything the parents do. Maybe increase in adults is causing less in the kids.

*****!!!!!!

And most importantly, look at the increase and number of methadone users!!!! :scared0011:

In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.


What do you know about methadone?

It is the govt/professionals way of getting people off drugs.

You KNOW a lot of people, Buzz. (In every thread you know someone who....lol) Do you know anyone on methadone?

J.B.
08-23-2010, 11:31 AM
Do you know anyone on methadone?

I'm obviously not Buzz, but I have personally known 3 people who used methadone. All 3 of them continued to use Heroin while taking Methadone.

One was my cousin, and she ended up dying of an overdose of heroin, methadone, cocaine, and alcohol about 10 years ago.

The other was a guy who used to hang around the bar I was the regular DJ at, and he just disappeared one day.

The third person is a close friend of mine's younger brother back in Illinois who has been going through it for about 2 years now. He constantly steals from the family and has been arrested numerous times in the last 6 months.

rearnakedchoke
08-23-2010, 02:05 PM
i don't know about legalizing drugs ... maybe marijuana .. building a wall/fence and hitting the people who hire illegals harder, you are going to help solve the problem ...

rockdawg21
08-23-2010, 02:12 PM
i don't know about legalizing drugs ... maybe marijuana .. building a wall/fence and hitting the people who hire illegals harder, you are going to help solve the problem ...
Do you really believe that?

If there's a 15 foot electric/barbed fence with armed guards (machine gunners, snipers, mine field, etc.), people are going to be FAR less likely to cross.

Also, if there aren't any jobs for illegals, what would be the point in coming here?

rearnakedchoke
08-23-2010, 02:17 PM
Do you really believe that?

If there's a 15 foot electric/barbed fence with armed guards (machine gunners, snipers, mine field, etc.), people are going to be FAR less likely to cross.

Also, if there aren't any jobs for illegals, what would be the point in coming here?

huh?

rockdawg21
08-23-2010, 02:18 PM
huh?
My bad, I read "aren't", not "are". :laugh:

i don't know about legalizing drugs ... maybe marijuana .. building a wall/fence and hitting the people who hire illegals harder, you are going to help solve the problem ...

VCURamFan
08-23-2010, 03:50 PM
Personally, I can see both sides of the issue when it comes to legalizing marijuana. However, like JB said, legalizing drugs like cocaine, crack, meth, acid, heroin, etc. is just crazy and can not be justified with any amount of tax money.
This. +1

Miss Foxy
08-23-2010, 03:52 PM
This. +1

+2
I can't even imagine how more disfunctional our society would be!! :frantics: Tweekers are no joke..

VCURamFan
08-23-2010, 03:53 PM
+2
I can't even imagine how more disfunctional our society would be!! :frantics: Tweekers are no joke..
Wait, does this mean I'm +2 or that NateR's +3. :unsure-1:

Miss Foxy
08-23-2010, 03:54 PM
Wait, does this mean I'm +2 or that NateR's +3. :unsure-1:

Don't be so damn technical it's only 8:54 am!! :angry: lol. My Starbucks isn't kicking in yet...

VCURamFan
08-23-2010, 03:57 PM
Don't be so damn technical it's only 8:54 am!! :angry: lol. My Starbucks isn't kicking in yet...
Sorry, I keep forgetting you're 3hrs behind. It's lunch time over here! :laugh:

Buzzard
08-23-2010, 04:23 PM
Yes, I read it.



You are all for a smaller government, huh? This solution would create an ever greater government.

And I wonder why the research only talks about less use in teens? The people seeking treatment actually doubled. How do we know the number adult users didn't triple?

AND as the article mentions, the trends in high drug usuage go up and down anyway. Could this be what is contributing to the lesser teen usuage? You know teens dont want to do anything the parents do. Maybe increase in adults is causing less in the kids.

*****!!!!!!

And most importantly, look at the increase and number of methadone users!!!! :scared0011:

In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.


What do you know about methadone?

It is the govt/professionals way of getting people off drugs.

You KNOW a lot of people, Buzz. (In every thread you know someone who....lol) Do you know anyone on methadone?

I'll answer you when I have a little more time.

Yes I do know a lot of people. That's what happens when you go out among people. Are you insinuating that I am lying about the people I say I have met? You probably wouldn't believe me if I told you about one person I lived with, but it doesn't matter because I know the truth and have no reason to lie about it and can back up what I say. If you aren't insinuating that I am lying, then why bring up that I "know" people? If you think I'm lying, be up front about it.

Not sure if I know anyone currently on methadone. My ex-junkie acquaintance doesn't use that I know of, he's been clean for years, including booze.

rearnakedchoke
08-23-2010, 05:10 PM
I'll answer you when I have a little more time.

Yes I do know a lot of people. That's what happens when you go out among people. Are you insinuating that I am lying about the people I say I have met? You probably wouldn't believe me if I told you about one person I lived with, but it doesn't matter because I know the truth and have no reason to lie about it and can back up what I say. If you aren't insinuating that I am lying, then why bring up that I "know" people? If you think I'm lying, be up front about it.

Not sure if I know anyone currently on methadone. My ex-junkie acquaintance doesn't use that I know of, he's been clean for years, including booze.

just like you were going to publish "The List" ... LOL

rockdawg21
08-23-2010, 05:17 PM
just like you were going to publish "The List" ... LOL
Yes, and he's going to make that list tomorrow.

Bonnie
08-24-2010, 11:24 AM
Here is a video clip from Greta Van Susteren's show last night talking about the mayor's murder and all the violence going on in Mexico. Four men were beheaded and hung in public apparently as a "message" to another rival drug cartel headed by a man named, "Le Barbie", who was born in Texas and raised here in America. Greta talks with Fmr. Ambassador to the U.N., John Bolton:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/index.html

Buzzard
08-27-2010, 01:50 AM
Yes, I read it.

Thanks for reading it.


You are all for a smaller government, huh? This solution would create an ever greater government.

In a way it would, but not in all ways if done correctly. Alcohol and tobacco aren't produced by the government, only regulated and taxed.

And I wonder why the research only talks about less use in teens? The people seeking treatment actually doubled. How do we know the number adult users didn't triple?

I think less use by teens is a great thing. I also think that the doubling of people seeking treatment is a great thing too. Would you start to use heroin if legal, crystal meth? I wouldn't. I don't know how we would know it the number of adult users didn't triple unless we asked. There are many things that are now legal that I won't or don't want to do. I'm just looking for a solution that is better than what we have now. I don't think our government is being honest with us in all aspects in this so called "war on drugs."

AND as the article mentions, the trends in high drug usuage go up and down anyway. Could this be what is contributing to the lesser teen usuage? You know teens dont want to do anything the parents do. Maybe increase in adults is causing less in the kids.

*****!!!!!!

Sure trends do go up and down, the more years that pass the more information will be available.


And most importantly, look at the increase and number of methadone users!!!! :scared0011:

Would you rather have more methadone users getting it legally or more heroin users who rob to get their fix?

In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

The above quote/data seems to suggest that more people are now seeking treatment and society is benefiting due to money saved on drug enforcement allowing for increased treatment. That seems like a good thing to me.


What do you know about methadone?

It is the govt/professionals way of getting people off drugs.

You KNOW a lot of people, Buzz. (In every thread you know someone who....lol) Do you know anyone on methadone?

Again, I don't know much about methadone and I know 2 additional people today. What a social butterfly I am!:laugh: Haven't talked to the ex-junkie yet to see if he was ever on methadone.

Neezar
08-27-2010, 10:50 AM
Thanks for reading it.



In a way it would, but not in all ways if done correctly. Alcohol and tobacco aren't produced by the government, only regulated and taxed.



I think less use by teens is a great thing. I also think that the doubling of people seeking treatment is a great thing too. Would you start to use heroin if legal, crystal meth? I wouldn't. I don't know how we would know it the number of adult users didn't triple unless we asked. There are many things that are now legal that I won't or don't want to do. I'm just looking for a solution that is better than what we have now. I don't think our government is being honest with us in all aspects in this so called "war on drugs."



Sure trends do go up and down, the more years that pass the more information will be available.



Would you rather have more methadone users getting it legally or more heroin users who rob to get their fix?



The above quote/data seems to suggest that more people are now seeking treatment and society is benefiting due to money saved on drug enforcement allowing for increased treatment. That seems like a good thing to me.



Again, I don't know much about methadone and I know 2 additional people today. What a social butterfly I am!:laugh: Haven't talked to the ex-junkie yet to see if he was ever on methadone.

No, he won't have ever been on methadone. He may be on methadone. You may know or meet a recovering heroine addict but you won't ever meet a recovering methadone addict. They don't recover. That is my point.

Withdrawals for 7-10 days getting off heroine is a cake walk compared to trying to get off methadone.

TexasRN
08-27-2010, 10:57 AM
No, he won't have ever been on methadone. He may be on methadone. You may know or meet a recovering heroine addict but you won't ever meet a recovering methadone addict. They don't recover. That is my point.

Withdrawals for 7-10 days getting off heroine is a cake walk compared to trying to get off methadone.


Ya'll should see the pregnant ladies we treat due to their narcotic addictions while pg.......methadone, heroine, crack, etc. I've seen it all including what it does to mom, baby, family, etc. I've spent nights in the NICU trying to comfort drug babies who are screaming in pain hour after hour after hour. I've seen a crack addict abrupt (her placenta separates) and the baby dies because we can't cut her open before the baby bleeds to death. Legalizing drugs will give me a rise in addicted pregnant ladies. That means more NICU babies with long term life effects due to being addicted in utero. If no other argument did it for me, working with those babies would.


~Amy

Neezar
08-27-2010, 11:01 AM
So in light of my above post.


Thanks for reading it.

You are welcome. I found it very interesting. And was excited about the program until I read about the methadone. Methadone is not the answer. :)

In a way it would, but not in all ways if done correctly. Alcohol and tobacco aren't produced by the government, only regulated and taxed.

Actually it would give them more power than you can imagine because you can't give methadone users a prescription. Well you can at first. But eventually they have to go to a clinic daily to get their dose to keep them from overdosing on it (which happens anyway. call you local ambulance and ask how many people they pick up in the parking lot of the methadone clinic). So the gov't would have to have these clinics and would basically control their everyday life.



I think less use by teens is a great thing. I also think that the doubling of people seeking treatment is a great thing too. Would you start to use heroin if legal, crystal meth? I wouldn't. I don't know how we would know it the number of adult users didn't triple unless we asked. There are many things that are now legal that I won't or don't want to do. I'm just looking for a solution that is better than what we have now. I don't think our government is being honest with us in all aspects in this so called "war on drugs."

I would be curious to know that. Although it doesn't really matter as methadone is Satan to me. And methadone is their answer to this.



Sure trends do go up and down, the more years that pass the more information will be available.



Would you rather have more methadone users getting it legally or more heroin users who rob to get their fix?

Um, are you suggesting that all heroine users rob to get their fix? And methadone users have to pay cash at the clinic. How many do you think have jobs? There may be more people robbing for methadone money now than they are heroine. We just don't know.



The above quote/data seems to suggest that more people are now seeking treatment and society is benefiting due to money saved on drug enforcement allowing for increased treatment. That seems like a good thing to me.

Only if they didn't create more users in the first place. :laugh:



Again, I don't know much about methadone and I know 2 additional people today. What a social butterfly I am!:laugh: Haven't talked to the ex-junkie yet to see if he was ever on methadone.

Congratulations! :cool: