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TDPARKASH
02-26-2009, 03:07 PM
Georges St. Pierre’s team is treating allegations of improprieties as seriously as it takes its training duties.

The UFC welterweight champion’s training staff filed a thorough 17-page written response and video on Wednesday to a letter filed by B.J. Penn’s attorney on Feb. 3 with the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

Penn’s letter, which could be deemed a step shy of a formal complaint, requested that the regulatory body investigate accusations that St. Pierre’s two cornermen, Phil Nurse and Greg Jackson, had improperly applied Vaseline to the fighter’s shoulders and back after the one-minute break between the first and second rounds.

Cornerman are allowed to spread Vaseline on a fighter’s facial area surrounding the eyes between rounds under commission observation. St. Pierre, Jackson, and Nurse have publicly denied the allegations, stating that the hand placement had been part of a breathing technique originated by holistic therapist Dr. Steven Friend. Friend has worked with

St. Pierre wore down, then brutalized the grounded UFC lightweight champion over four rounds before Penn’s corner signaled to an attending physician that their fighter could not continue into the final round. St. Pierre was also victorious against Penn via a close split decision in their first bout at UFC 58 in March 2006.

However, the popular Hawaiian’s team cried foul play after they learned that NSAC officials had observed the French Canadian’s two cornermen applying the lubricant to the fighter’s shoulders and back. Penn’s reps claim the action gave St. Pierre an unfair advantage against Penn, the first non-Brazilian to win the black belt division of the World Jiu-Jitsu Championships.

Last week, Penn’s group distributed a video that showed the Hawaiian’s legs slide down St. Pierre’s back when Penn tried to establish a high guard.

In their response, St. Pierre’s corner fired back with their recollection of the events surrounding the night in question, which included signed affidavits from Nurse, Jackson, Friend, and the fighter’s grappling instructor John Danaher.

A joint opening letter signed by Jackson and Nurse refuted the claim that there had been a pre-conceived intention to apply the Vaseline to create an unfair advantage for St. Pierre, as Nurse had been given the responsibility only a few minutes before the team entered cage. The letter also stated that “at no time was more than a small amount of Vaseline being used between the first and second rounds,” so it couldn’t have effected the outcome of the bout.

“If any Vaseline was left on [Nurse’s] hands… it could have only been a miniscule amount and clearly within the limitations of [statute] NAC 467.598,” read the document.

Of particular interest was Danaher’s affidavit. The well-known Brazilian jiu-jitsu coach tackled the allegations from numerous angles.

Danaher, a highly sought after instructor at Renzo Gracie’s famed academy in New York City, argued that St. Pierre stood to lose just as much positional control from the alleged lubricant application as Penn did.

“In the course of the match Mr. St. Pierre scored with numerous sophisticated grappling techniques, takedowns, pins, guard passes etc. Lubricant doesn’t discriminate,” wrote Danaher. “If lubricant made Penn’s grappling ineffective, it should have also made St. Pierre’s grappling technique ineffective.”

Danaher explicitly described St. Pierre’s team assessment of Penn’s ground technique and their game plan to combat it, and noted that Penn has never won an MMA contest from his own guard position, but from top and back control.

Danaher also stated his belief that a lubricant’s spreading is unavoidable in any fight.

“Once Vaseline is applied to the face, it’s only a matter of time before it ‘migrates’ to every other part of the body,” he wrote.

Complimenting the written documents, a two-minute video demonstrated Friend’s breathing technique used on St. Pierre at UFC 83 in April 2008, at UFC 87 in August 2008, and in B-roll footage captured during St. Pierre’s warm-up in his locker room at UFC 94, as well as its application on Sean Sherk during his fight with Penn at UFC 84 in May 2008.

NSAC Executive Director Keith Kizer, who began his own review of events a few days following the Jan. 31 event, will present both fighters’ submissions to commission members at a future meeting for possible action.

And those who think the saga of “Grease Gate” is nearing its slippery conclusion should be prepared for a few more twists and turns.

J.D. Penn, the fighter’s older brother and manager, told Sherdog.com on Monday that a formal complaint is currently being drafted and will be submitted to the NSAC shortly

atomdanger
02-26-2009, 03:12 PM
“In the course of the match Mr. St. Pierre scored with numerous sophisticated grappling techniques, takedowns, pins, guard passes etc. Lubricant doesn’t discriminate,” wrote Danaher. “If lubricant made Penn’s grappling ineffective, it should have also made St. Pierre’s grappling technique ineffective.”

I disagree.
If it was on his back / shoulders.
There was clearly video of Penn not being able to keep his guard high on GSP's back where the vasoline was applied. This making his flexibility (a huge weapon of his) ineffective.

Spiritwalker
02-26-2009, 03:23 PM
“In the course of the match Mr. St. Pierre scored with numerous sophisticated grappling techniques, takedowns, pins, guard passes etc. Lubricant doesn’t discriminate,” wrote Danaher. “If lubricant made Penn’s grappling ineffective, it should have also made St. Pierre’s grappling technique ineffective.”

I disagree.
If it was on his back / shoulders.
There was clearly video of Penn not being able to keep his guard high on GSP's back where the vasoline was applied. This making his flexibility (a huge weapon of his) ineffective.


GSP being stonger and having a good posture at the time.. and sweat.. would have nothing to do with it? And I see where the shoulders could be an issue, but the video I saw had baby jay in the upper ribs area.

Crisco
02-26-2009, 03:30 PM
His attempt at rubber guard slid right down the back. Could vaseline have been a factor? Sure but no more then sweat and GSP's bear strength and posturing at the time.


Rubberguard is like any other move it is not 100% and BJ was basically wobbled and gassed and completely overwhelmed by GSP's control of him.

TDPARKASH
02-26-2009, 03:46 PM
This is the key statement in the whole debate.........

Pre-conceived notion! As this thing drags out in the coming months, there has to be some evidence that supports that there was a pre-conceived notion. Otherwise, it will be classified as an error which may or may not have been "excessive" use of lubricant as per the NSAC policy. BJ has to go through old tapes and show evidence, video of this happening in the past.......or some sort of proof that this was their strategy.


Without pulling this together, the case is dead. He can use other witnesses, maybe even Matt Hughes to show precedence but I think he needs video footage of those fights, specifically between rounds.



A joint opening letter signed by Jackson and Nurse refuted the claim that there had been a pre-conceived intention to apply the Vaseline to create an unfair advantage for St. Pierre, as Nurse had been given the responsibility only a few minutes before the team entered cage. The letter also stated that “at no time was more than a small amount of Vaseline being used between the first and second rounds,” so it couldn’t have effected the outcome of the bout.


His attempt at rubber guard slid right down the back. Could vaseline have been a factor? Sure but no more then sweat and GSP's bear strength and posturing at the time.


Rubberguard is like any other move it is not 100% and BJ was basically wobbled and gassed and completely overwhelmed by GSP's control of him.

rockdawg21
02-26-2009, 03:58 PM
Baby Jay just needs to quit being a baby.

lc87
02-26-2009, 04:20 PM
The way I see it it was there or the nsac wouldn't have said anything further than whiping it off. So it was applied and that's cheeting wheather or not it affected the fight I dunno. But he was caugjt cheating and that's enough to make his whole career questioned expecially with all the other fighters claiming the same thing. So should he have an astesk by all the fights where he felt slippery on his offical record like has been proposed in football for marriman and baseball for bonds?

GroundNPound
02-26-2009, 04:33 PM
His attempt at rubber guard slid right down the back. Could vaseline have been a factor? Sure but no more then sweat and GSP's bear strength and posturing at the time.


Rubberguard is like any other move it is not 100% and BJ was basically wobbled and gassed and completely overwhelmed by GSP's control of him.


I agree. BJ never talks about how his gas tank his empty after the 1st round either. It's just about the grease. There are several videos also showing how GSP shrugs his shoulders and attempts to go "vertical" to defeat the high guard. That is also why BJ's legs slide down.

atomdanger
02-26-2009, 05:05 PM
GSP being stonger and having a good posture at the time.. and sweat.. would have nothing to do with it? And I see where the shoulders could be an issue, but the video I saw had baby jay in the upper ribs area.


Bj has been able to do it with bigger / stronger and sweaty guys before...
I am sure it has an effect, but come on, his legs were slipping off like crazy.

I can't find the link in the forums, but somebody posted a thread with a link to a GSP / greased blog website, with a ton of GIF's of Penn trying to get into the rubber guard and he just could not, his flexibility might be his biggest weapon.

TDPARKASH
02-26-2009, 05:05 PM
* Cheating is defined as an "excessive use of grease" in NSAC Mandate
* You need proof that this occured in other fights, video evdience......................where are those tapes........
* They have stated it was a mistake, the question is was it a pre-conceived notion.......in which case they are all in trouble

What i am saying, is where is this investigation going? I only see ramfications to GSP or his record if they show proof that this was not a mistake, and it's happened in the past?

Without that, this whole case is dead and a waste of time.

The way I see it it was there or the nsac wouldn't have said anything further than whiping it off. So it was applied and that's cheeting wheather or not it affected the fight I dunno. But he was caugjt cheating and that's enough to make his whole career questioned expecially with all the other fighters claiming the same thing. So should he have an astesk by all the fights where he felt slippery on his offical record like has been proposed in football for marriman and baseball for bonds?

logrus
02-26-2009, 05:06 PM
Doesn't matter, it was illegally applied and against the rules. Video shows the transfer of hands from the face > shoulders > back.
Same thing for fighters who are caught with illegal substances in there system, why should they see 6 months to a year ban when they didn't even last 10 seconds in the fight.

Your argument is that the grease didn't have much or any bearing on the fight. Neither does the guy pissing pos then seeing lights out 10 seconds later.

atomdanger
02-26-2009, 05:08 PM
I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE it when people keep saying it didn't effect the outcome of the fight.

IT DOESN'T MATTER, its still cheating!!!

We might as well not take points for illegal blows, or for fence grabbing, etc..
Because every winner could just claim that they would have won anyway,
so what does it matter if it doesn't change the outcome of the fight???

Its a stupid argument to make the Vaseline thing sound not so bad

Crisco
02-26-2009, 05:19 PM
It stands to reason that whether it had an outcome on the fight or not is perfectly relevant.

The commision came in and WHIPED the grease off after the incident. They didn't disqualify GSP at that point so they shouldn't be able to do it now. After the Grease is whiped off BJ is still completely ineffective in every way.

Your right it is no different then an illegal blow. They take their five minutes and then the fight continue. GSP was whiped and then continued.


BJ got his ass whooped and his legion of fans are having trouble swallowing it. I get it and I know how you feel.


What exactly do you want to happen? You want BJ to get a rematch or something? WHY? What is the point. GSP embarrased BJ in everyway. Another fight would prove nothing except what everyone already knows BJ = go to lightweight and stay there fatty.

atomdanger
02-26-2009, 05:25 PM
After the Grease is whiped off BJ is still completely ineffective in every way.

Your right it is no different then an illegal blow. They take their five minutes and then the fight continue. GSP was whiped and then continued.

BJ got his ass whooped and his legion of fans are having trouble swallowing it. I get it and I know how you feel.

What exactly do you want to happen? You want BJ to get a rematch or something? WHY? What is the point. GSP embarrased BJ in everyway. Another fight would prove nothing except what everyone already knows BJ = go to lightweight and stay there fatty.

I actually do not want a rematch, I want bj to stay at LW.

and I do not have a problem with him losing, I have a problem with how people and GSP have treated this whole situation, not taking it seriously and just pointing out its because BJ had lost.

I would like you to apply vasoline to yourself, and then give a wipe with a towel.
See if it all comes off, or if its a pain in the ass and you're still greasy all day.
vasoline just doesn't wipe off with a dry towel and thats it.

Hughes_GOAT
02-26-2009, 05:27 PM
it'll be interesting to see the Alves fight now that GSP won't be greased......unless he lotions up the night before, LOL.

he better win emphatically or else everyone will say that it was the grease that helped him against Penn.

lc87
02-26-2009, 05:37 PM
it'll be interesting to see the Alves fight now that GSP won't be greased......unless he lotions up the night before, LOL.

he better win emphatically or else everyone will say that it was the grease that helped him against Penn.

Who knows that might have been his key to winning all of his fights in the past we just now have video evidence of it .

TDPARKASH
02-26-2009, 07:01 PM
Steriods is not the same thing as GREASING. As i have mentioned earlier, the owness of steriods falls on the fighter. In this case, it falls on the corner. However, if GSP was aware of it, then on the fighter and it was pre-empt.

cheating is not the same thing as a mistake. Can you use steriods by mistake? NO grey area

Can your corner be careless in his application of vaseline and not rub his hands off? Yes.........it it was pre-empt, then NO grey area.

I don't know if people are mising the point here regarding pre-empt.




Doesn't matter, it was illegally applied and against the rules. Video shows the transfer of hands from the face > shoulders > back.
Same thing for fighters who are caught with illegal substances in there system, why should they see 6 months to a year ban when they didn't even last 10 seconds in the fight.

Your argument is that the grease didn't have much or any bearing on the fight. Neither does the guy pissing pos then seeing lights out 10 seconds later.

Bonnie
02-26-2009, 07:03 PM
The case may ultimately die without any ramifications to GSP and his camp, but I don't think it's a waste of time.

They definitely need to implement new rules about who applies the vaseline and who goes in the cage in between rounds. This needs to be for all fights no matter where they take place--not just in certain states/countries...

I don't care for GSP or BJ Penn, but I do care if someone does something (intentional or not) to give himself an unfair advantage. That is cheating! I don't care how you want to quibble about how much or little vaseline was there or that it wasn't intentional.

BJ Penn is the most flexible fighter I've seen to date in the cage. He's like a rubber man and he should have been able to get his legs up there at that point in the fight, but they kept slipping down. He does seem to gas fast when he's come up to 170 and GSP more than likely would have won. But, I didn't expect to see such an overwhelming one-sided fight. So I definitely think the grease affected his ability to do what he does best.

What's been shocking to me is that people for GSP (in this particular case) have just wanted to blow it all off by saying, "oh it was just a miniscule amount or it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome, it wasn't intentional or BJ Penn always whines when he loses (which does look to be true), etc...". None of that is the point! The point is did he have an unfair advantage against his opponent due to something that was done by him or his camp (intentional or not!)!

I doubt any investigation will end up accusing GSP of cheating, but I do hope it changes things so that it eliminates or at least makes it harder for this type of thing to happen. It's to GSP's or any fighter's benefit to make sure there's no ? hanging over his/their win(s).

Winning is great! Losing sucks! But if you win by cheating, you're still a LOSER! (IMHO) :ninja:

Tyburn
02-26-2009, 07:22 PM
Baby Jay just needs to quit being a baby.
This is GSPs response...he should have let it go...because the commissioner aggreed INDEPENDANTLYU of Penn AT the time.

Nurse should go, Jackson should appologise and Georges should be Stripped

I'm kidding about the last bit obviously :laugh:

Spiritwalker
02-26-2009, 07:25 PM
I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE it when people keep saying it didn't effect the outcome of the fight.

IT DOESN'T MATTER, its still cheating!!!

We might as well not take points for illegal blows, or for fence grabbing, etc..
Because every winner could just claim that they would have won anyway,
so what does it matter if it doesn't change the outcome of the fight???

Its a stupid argument to make the Vaseline thing sound not so bad


Well.. at best.. it was a minimal effect on the fight..

And some people (not you) want to complain that it was intentional.. and that I don't really see.. but granted.. GSP seems to have a slight history in this regard.

Crisco
02-26-2009, 07:29 PM
The case may ultimately die without any ramifications to GSP and his camp, but I don't think it's a waste of time.

They definitely need to implement new rules about who applies the vaseline and who goes in the cage in between rounds. This needs to be for all fights no matter where they take place--not just in certain states/countries...

I don't care for GSP or BJ Penn, but I do care if someone does something (intentional or not) to give himself an unfair advantage. That is cheating! I don't care how you want to quibble about how much or little vaseline was there or that it wasn't intentional.

BJ Penn is the most flexible fighter I've seen to date in the cage. He's like a rubber man and he should have been able to get his legs up there at that point in the fight, but they kept slipping down. He does seem to gas fast when he's come up to 170 and GSP more than likely would have won. But, I didn't expect to see such an overwhelming one-sided fight. So I definitely think the grease affected his ability to do what he does best.

What's been shocking to me is that people for GSP (in this particular case) have just wanted to blow it all off by saying, "oh it was just a miniscule amount or it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome, it wasn't intentional or BJ Penn always whines when he loses (which does look to be true), etc...". None of that is the point! The point is did he have an unfair advantage against his opponent due to something that was done by him or his camp (intentional or not!)!

I doubt any investigation will end up accusing GSP of cheating, but I do hope it changes things so that it eliminates or at least makes it harder for this type of thing to happen. It's to GSP's or any fighter's benefit to make sure there's no ? hanging over his/their win(s).

Winning is great! Losing sucks! But if you win by cheating, you're still a LOSER! (IMHO) :ninja:

I understand that Bonnie and I agree. This is little ifferent then an illegal blow to the grown. It gives a fighter an unfair advantage. Hell take a point off of GSP's scorecard.

I've watched GSP's fights and wouldn't call myself a fan as much as I'm in awe of his skills. I'm a Matt Hughes Fan plan and simple but I respect GSP. After watching all of those fights I do not believe that any single fight would have gone different.

I'm glad they are changing the rules and I think GSP and Penn should just move on. There is no point in the drama because the investigation is underway and the rules have changed for the fights. Let them do their jobs. Fighters fight and commisions talk.

GSP is the undisputed champion of the world regardless of what some believe.

Tyburn
02-26-2009, 07:50 PM
GSP is the undisputed champion of the world regardless of what some believe.
He's not though. Thats the point. Its very much disputed. :laugh:

Champion of the world maybe...but he's disputed.

TDPARKASH
02-26-2009, 07:59 PM
good point, the investigation is a waste of time not re-evaluating the policy around "greasing"

In my book, cheating is something that is done intentionally. Having an unfair advantage due to careleness is not "cheating" but is still not fair. Like a false start in a race, that the judges miss.

The case may ultimately die without any ramifications to GSP and his camp, but I don't think it's a waste of time.

They definitely need to implement new rules about who applies the vaseline and who goes in the cage in between rounds. This needs to be for all fights no matter where they take place--not just in certain states/countries...

I don't care for GSP or BJ Penn, but I do care if someone does something (intentional or not) to give himself an unfair advantage. That is cheating! I don't care how you want to quibble about how much or little vaseline was there or that it wasn't intentional.

BJ Penn is the most flexible fighter I've seen to date in the cage. He's like a rubber man and he should have been able to get his legs up there at that point in the fight, but they kept slipping down. He does seem to gas fast when he's come up to 170 and GSP more than likely would have won. But, I didn't expect to see such an overwhelming one-sided fight. So I definitely think the grease affected his ability to do what he does best.

What's been shocking to me is that people for GSP (in this particular case) have just wanted to blow it all off by saying, "oh it was just a miniscule amount or it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome, it wasn't intentional or BJ Penn always whines when he loses (which does look to be true), etc...". None of that is the point! The point is did he have an unfair advantage against his opponent due to something that was done by him or his camp (intentional or not!)!

I doubt any investigation will end up accusing GSP of cheating, but I do hope it changes things so that it eliminates or at least makes it harder for this type of thing to happen. It's to GSP's or any fighter's benefit to make sure there's no ? hanging over his/their win(s).

Winning is great! Losing sucks! But if you win by cheating, you're still a LOSER! (IMHO) :ninja:

Crisco
02-26-2009, 08:11 PM
He's not though. Thats the point. Its very much disputed. :laugh:

Champion of the world maybe...but he's disputed.

The only people disputing him as champion are BJ penn fans and BJ penn.

Everyone knows GSP destroyed Penn. Plain and simple.

logrus
02-26-2009, 08:26 PM
Steriods is not the same thing as GREASING. As i have mentioned earlier, the owness of steriods falls on the fighter. In this case, it falls on the corner. However, if GSP was aware of it, then on the fighter and it was pre-empt.

cheating is not the same thing as a mistake. Can you use steriods by mistake? NO grey area

Can your corner be careless in his application of vaseline and not rub his hands off? Yes.........it it was pre-empt, then NO grey area.

I don't know if people are mising the point here regarding pre-empt.

Cheating is cheating whether you do it or your trusted corner does it. IF a fighter is held accountable for what he puts into his body, then a fighter should be held accountable for whats applied to his body.

I know if I were to get busted for roids and said my nutrition/dietitian gave them to me you would argue I still knowingly took them. SO why not argue that Gsp knowingly had the vasoline on him.

How do you not know as a fighter or corner man, that the person rubbing the goop cant be the same guy to immediately do the rub down technique.

As for mistakes steroids can be ingested as a mistake, its called lacing and all the companies have done it from time to time. There plenty of cases that support the fact lacing does happen.

Crisco
02-26-2009, 08:32 PM
Cheating is cheating whether you do it or your trusted corner does it. IF a fighter is held accountable for what he puts into his body, then a fighter should be held accountable for whats applied to his body.

I know if I were to get busted for roids and said my nutrition/dietitian gave them to me you would argue I still knowingly took them. SO why not argue that Gsp knowingly had the vasoline on him.

How do you not know as a fighter or corner man, that the person rubbing the goop cant be the same guy to immediately do the rub down technique.

As for mistakes steroids can be ingested as a mistake, its called lacing and all the companies have done it from time to time. There plenty of cases that support the fact lacing does happen.

Sherk

logrus
02-26-2009, 09:05 PM
Sherk

That poor guy busted his a$$ to prove his innocence and got 6 months, James Tony said ya I did it and got 6 months. Nate the Great also tested positive and proved he took supplements that was tainted.

For a long while people were testing positive on the base and nobody knew why til it came back that the product Orange was majorly laced.

Lance Armstrong tested positive for roids and if im not mistaken it was found that it was from some creme he put on his body. It just was in the legal limit for cycling.

You have to have a PHD in Chem to know what the ingredients in supplements are. You dont need to have a Phd to understand that grease applied to the head and then directly to the back is cheating and against the rules.

TDPARKASH
02-26-2009, 09:06 PM
We just have different definitions of cheating. If you were taking pills, without knowing they were steriods, then that's not "cheating in my book". It's an unfair advantage for sure and still should have reprcussions. I guess for me cheating is a pre-empt strategy to create an unfair advantage.

IF GSP knowingly knew what his corner was doing and it can be proven, then i would strip him and suspend him for at least 6 months.

As it stands, would you strip him of the belt?



Cheating is cheating whether you do it or your trusted corner does it. IF a fighter is held accountable for what he puts into his body, then a fighter should be held accountable for whats applied to his body.

I know if I were to get busted for roids and said my nutrition/dietitian gave them to me you would argue I still knowingly took them. SO why not argue that Gsp knowingly had the vasoline on him.

How do you not know as a fighter or corner man, that the person rubbing the goop cant be the same guy to immediately do the rub down technique.

As for mistakes steroids can be ingested as a mistake, its called lacing and all the companies have done it from time to time. There plenty of cases that support the fact lacing does happen.

atomdanger
02-26-2009, 09:18 PM
Steriods is not the same thing as GREASING. As i have mentioned earlier, the owness of steriods falls on the fighter. In this case, it falls on the corner. However, if GSP was aware of it, then on the fighter and it was pre-empt.

cheating is not the same thing as a mistake. Can you use steriods by mistake? NO grey area

Can your corner be careless in his application of vaseline and not rub his hands off? Yes.........it it was pre-empt, then NO grey area.

I don't know if people are mising the point here regarding pre-empt.

YES YOU CAN USE BY MISTAKE,
and no the "owness" of steroids do not fall on the fighter.

What about fighters who get supplements from their trainers?
It can happen, its a case to case basis, just like the grease.

I don't know how you wouldn't notice somebody rubbing grease on your back.

atomdanger
02-26-2009, 09:22 PM
Well.. at best.. it was a minimal effect on the fight..

And some people (not you) want to complain that it was intentional.. and that I don't really see.. but granted.. GSP seems to have a slight history in this regard.

In my eyes it was intentional, but to me it doesn't matter,
they were warned, and it happened again after the next round.
That should have been a DQ in my eyes.


They were warned after the first round, then AGAIN after the second.
How did they forget in a 5 minute time frame that they cannot grease his back?
Jackson has been doing this WAYYYY too long for this to have just been an accident,
he knows what you can and cannot do.

I don't really care if was intentional anyway,
sometimes fence grabs, blows to the back of the head, etc... Just happen
(instinct, etc..) But there should still be some sort of punishment.

atomdanger
02-26-2009, 09:23 PM
He's not though. Thats the point. Its very much disputed. :laugh:

Champion of the world maybe...but he's disputed.

lol EXACTLY.

Crisco
02-26-2009, 09:25 PM
In my eyes it was intentional, but to me it doesn't matter,
they were warned, and it happened again after the next round.
That should have been a DQ in my eyes.


They were warned after the first round, then AGAIN after the second.
How did they forget in a 5 minute time frame that they cannot grease his back?
Jackson has been doing this WAYYYY too long for this to have just been an accident,
he knows what you can and cannot do.

I don't really care if was intentional anyway,
sometimes fence grabs, blows to the back of the head, etc... Just happen
(instinct, etc..) But there should still be some sort of punishment.

Exactly Jackson has been doing it long enough to know that he is on camera and if he was already warned that they are looking very closely. I don't think he would have intentionally done it again.

Hughes_GOAT
02-27-2009, 12:00 AM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2cz8404.jpg

kevint13
02-27-2009, 12:57 AM
Here is the actual response GSP sent to the NSAC:

http://mmapayout.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/gsp-nsac-response.pdf

There are actually some great points that they presented in this.

logrus
02-27-2009, 01:46 AM
We just have different definitions of cheating. If you were taking pills, without knowing they were steriods, then that's not "cheating in my book". It's an unfair advantage for sure and still should have reprcussions. I guess for me cheating is a pre-empt strategy to create an unfair advantage.

IF GSP knowingly knew what his corner was doing and it can be proven, then i would strip him and suspend him for at least 6 months.

As it stands, would you strip him of the belt?

Gsp has been fighting for how long, has been training for how long. Same with his corner. You act as if this was his first major fight and their first fight cornering.

nope 6 month to 1 year ban. We need to treat this as if it was a fighter testing positive.

atomdanger
02-27-2009, 01:47 AM
Exactly Jackson has been doing it long enough to know that he is on camera and if he was already warned that they are looking very closely. I don't think he would have intentionally done it again.

IMO he has been doing it long enough to think he can get away with it.

When people get comfortable is when they try to get away with things.

I don't see how he could have accidentally done it again,
I think he thought they would trust that he wouldn't do it, and he did it again.

Its just too odd that soo many people have commented on GSP's slipperiness.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-27-2009, 06:41 AM
While I don't want to think GSP would deliberately Cheat the FACT is his corner did apply Vaseline to his Back and Shoulders. So I can see BJ being upset. Calling him a Crybaby for being upset over a FACT is not giving him a fair shake at all. And no I ain't accusing GSP of deliberately cheating. But maybe the guy that used the Grease should be suspended!

rearnakedchoke
02-27-2009, 02:22 PM
In my eyes it was intentional, but to me it doesn't matter,
they were warned, and it happened again after the next round.
That should have been a DQ in my eyes.


They were warned after the first round, then AGAIN after the second.
How did they forget in a 5 minute time frame that they cannot grease his back?
Jackson has been doing this WAYYYY too long for this to have just been an accident,
he knows what you can and cannot do.

I don't really care if was intentional anyway,
sometimes fence grabs, blows to the back of the head, etc... Just happen
(instinct, etc..) But there should still be some sort of punishment.

they weren't warned after the the first round ... the nsac said they saw what they thought was nurse applying vaseline to the body and waited for after the second round .. when they then saw it being applied .. they then warned them not to do it, wiped off GSP to what it states in the rules ... after the third they again wiped off gsp without anything being applied, which is a benefit to BJ as they were wiping off sweat from gsp's back ...

enough with the whining, if people thought he was greasing, they should have said something at the time of the fight and lodged a complaint then ... BJ is full of crap, his camp is full of crap ... let's see .. BJ says Florian's camp and serra's camp tipped him off to gsp being greasy .. then he also said GSP was greasy the first time they fought .... which one is it? BJ is a whiner, he has excuses for all his losses .. this is just another sad attempt at him to provide a reason for why he lost ... take it like a man ..

bradwright
02-27-2009, 02:33 PM
they weren't warned after the the first round ... the nsac said they saw what they thought was nurse applying vaseline to the body and waited for after the second round .. when they then saw it being applied .. they then warned them not to do it, wiped off GSP to what it states in the rules ... after the third they again wiped off gsp without anything being applied, which is a benefit to BJ as they were wiping off sweat from gsp's back ...

enough with the whining, if people thought he was greasing, they should have said something at the time of the fight and lodged a complaint then ... BJ is full of crap, his camp is full of crap ... let's see .. BJ says Florian's camp and serra's camp tipped him off to gsp being greasy .. then he also said GSP was greasy the first time they fought .... which one is it? BJ is a whiner, he has excuses for all his losses .. this is just another sad attempt at him to provide a reason for why he lost ... take it like a man ..

this is really starting to pisss me off and i've had it up to here (if you could see me right now i'm holding my hand just under my eyes so there still is a little more room until my head explodes) with all you cry baby J fans that just cant seem to accept the fact Penn got his asss,,,oh,,geez,,sorry,,i should have taken a little more time too read your post,,man do i feel silly,,


never mind me,,just pretend i never came in here,,

well then ,,carry on.

Max
02-27-2009, 02:40 PM
enough with the whining, if people thought he was greasing, they should have said something at the time of the fight and lodged a complaint then ... BJ is full of crap, his camp is full of crap ... let's see .. BJ says Florian's camp and serra's camp tipped him off to gsp being greasy .. then he also said GSP was greasy the first time they fought .... which one is it? BJ is a whiner, he has excuses for all his losses .. this is just another sad attempt at him to provide a reason for why he lost ... take it like a man ..
So I guess Matt, Sherk, Jason Miller, and Serra are all full of crap as well.

rearnakedchoke
02-27-2009, 03:34 PM
So I guess Matt, Sherk, Jason Miller, and Serra are all full of crap as well.
i am not saying they are full of crap ..what i am saying, is if they know that a guy is greasing ... make a formal complaint .. BJ also said that he notified the NSAC prior to the fight, so should they not have toweled him off regardless of anything after the rounds? .. why not towel everyone off? after the second round pretty much everyone is greased since you are allowed to place it on the face, it is transfered to the opponents chest, hands, arms and even back ... the vaseline was applied and wiped off, sure you can't get 100% of it off, but BJ wasn't toweled off, and he was bound to have some on his chest and arms from GSP's face while in guard ... i honestly don't see the need for vaseline being applied to the face even at the start of the fight, i guess it needs to be used when someone is cut ... let them fight again and see what happens ..

TDPARKASH
02-27-2009, 03:50 PM
Not liars, but would it not be caught on tape then? Like between rounds.

If the NSAC officials check a fighter before he goes in, then it must have happened bewteen rounds. I have been looking for evidence for a while and have found nothing. THis is why i can't say for sure.

So if anyone has tape, PLEASE POST IT.........i have done my best to LOOK

So I guess Matt, Sherk, Jason Miller, and Serra are all full of crap as well.

Max
02-27-2009, 04:45 PM
Not liars, but would it not be caught on tape then? Like between rounds.

If the NSAC officials check a fighter before he goes in, then it must have happened bewteen rounds. I have been looking for evidence for a while and have found nothing. THis is why i can't say for sure.

So if anyone has tape, PLEASE POST IT.........i have done my best to LOOK
http://i41.tinypic.com/333dd2x.gif

This gif is from the fight with Serra (if you look when GSP stands up you can see Bell Centre on the cage).

TDPARKASH
02-27-2009, 04:51 PM
OH WOW........did he apply vasoline with the same hand, is there video of that. That should be evidence in this investigation if so.........and hopefully they come across it...............did you record the fight?.......


http://i41.tinypic.com/333dd2x.gif

This gif is from the fight with Serra (if you look when GSP stands up you can see Bell Centre on the cage).

Hughes_GOAT
02-27-2009, 05:20 PM
they didn't even tell BJ until after the fight that GSP was caught greasing. if they told him during the fight, maybe BJ would have had his legs wiped down or even asked for the fight to be ruled a NC? i just think it was wrong not to tell him what was going on.

and Matt said that after the 40 fights, 1,000 wrestling matches, he should know the difference between sweat slipperiness and greasy slipperiness. BJ, i'm sure, only filed a formal complaint since this was the second time he's felt GSP was slippery.

other guys have made complaints but just let it go, i'm guessing, since they only fought him once. except for Matt, BJ and Serra, who have all fought GSP at least twice and all of them have said GSP felt slippery.

rearnakedchoke
02-27-2009, 05:43 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/333dd2x.gif

This gif is from the fight with Serra (if you look when GSP stands up you can see Bell Centre on the cage).

that's of him rubbing his back though .. where is the rest of the gif of him first rubbing vaseline on his hands?

GroundNPound
02-27-2009, 06:16 PM
that's of him rubbing his back though .. where is the rest of the gif of him first rubbing vaseline on his hands?


Yeah, that video proves nothing. I don't even think Nurse always does the vaseline.

There are videos of Rich Franklin, Militech and others supposedly being "greased"....I bet you can make a case against a lot of guys.

rearnakedchoke
02-27-2009, 06:20 PM
Yeah, that video proves nothing. I don't even think Nurse always does the vaseline.

There are videos of Rich Franklin, Militech and others supposedly being "greased"....I bet you can make a case against a lot of guys.

exactly ... i don't disagree that nurse applied grease to gsp, but the rules state that if grease is applied to parts other than the face, they must be wiped off ... after the first, they saw nurse do this and did not act, after the second, they viewed it, reprimanded the corner and wiped gsp, after the third, they went in, made sure to grease was applied and wiped off GSP again .. Penn is trying to make an excuse out of an extremely one-sided beating he took ... that is all ... and penn fans will take this to their graves ... if they fight again, BJ and his fans will come out with something else ...

Hughes_GOAT
02-27-2009, 07:20 PM
exactly ... i don't disagree that nurse applied grease to gsp, but the rules state that if grease is applied to parts other than the face, they must be wiped off ... after the first, they saw nurse do this and did not act, after the second, they viewed it, reprimanded the corner and wiped gsp, after the third, they went in, made sure to grease was applied and wiped off GSP again .. Penn is trying to make an excuse out of an extremely one-sided beating he took ... that is all ... and penn fans will take this to their graves ... if they fight again, BJ and his fans will come out with something else ...

just the fact that his cornerman greased him again, after being told not to, and having to be wiped down, AGAIN, is reason enough to have disqualified him, let alone question his legitimacy.

rearnakedchoke
02-27-2009, 07:24 PM
just the fact that his cornerman greased him again, after being told not to, and having to be wiped down, AGAIN, is reason enough to have disqualified him, let alone question his legitimacy.

no, he was greased twice .. between the first and second ... after the first, there was no warning because the nsac official was pretty sure he saw the greasing, after the second, he saw the greasing, and warned them, told them not to do it and wiped off GSP ... after the third, they went out to ensure the corner wouldn't do it, which they didn't .. they then wiped down gsp again as a precaution ... the corner never disregarded a warning and continue to grease, they were warned and stopped doing it ..

Bonnie
02-27-2009, 09:12 PM
Alright, fellas, go get your jars of vaseline out of the medicine cabinet or wherever you keep it and let's do the vaseline test. And don't cheat by barely applying it either.

I just did it and washed my hands and it's still on my fingers and the spot on my arm where I applied it then "wiped" it with a dry towel. Stuff's still there! Vaseline is not going to come off with just wiping it; you need very warm/hot water and lots of soap. It may take a couple of washings or so too.

Plus, I thought some of you as well as some articles I've read since the GSP greasing said some of these fighters apply "lotion" the day/night before their fights and when they start sweating is when the lotion comes to the surface. If that's happening from the night before, there's no way vaseline that's just been applied is going to be gone merely from wiping it off with a dry or even wet towel. Let's use some common sense please, or at least put it to the test. I know you guys have vaseline. :tongue0011:

Bonnie
02-27-2009, 09:16 PM
just the fact that his cornerman greased him again, after being told not to, and having to be wiped down, AGAIN, is reason enough to have disqualified him, let alone question his legitimacy.

Go Goat, go Goat! Say it! Say it loud!

<where are my pom poms> :laugh:

atomdanger
02-27-2009, 10:09 PM
they weren't warned after the the first round ... the nsac said they saw what they thought was nurse applying vaseline to the body and waited for after the second round .. when they then saw it being applied .. they then warned them not to do it, wiped off GSP to what it states in the rules ... after the third they again wiped off gsp without anything being applied, which is a benefit to BJ as they were wiping off sweat from gsp's back ...

enough with the whining, if people thought he was greasing, they should have said something at the time of the fight and lodged a complaint then ... BJ is full of crap, his camp is full of crap ... let's see .. BJ says Florian's camp and serra's camp tipped him off to gsp being greasy .. then he also said GSP was greasy the first time they fought .... which one is it? BJ is a whiner, he has excuses for all his losses .. this is just another sad attempt at him to provide a reason for why he lost ... take it like a man ..


http://mmajunkie.com/news/13895/kizer-penn-yet-to-file-ufc-94-appeal-st-pierres-corner-could-face-action.mma

They noticed after the first, so says Kizer, the head of the commission.

atomdanger
02-27-2009, 10:11 PM
i am not saying they are full of crap ..what i am saying, is if they know that a guy is greasing ... make a formal complaint .. BJ also said that he notified the NSAC prior to the fight, so should they not have toweled him off regardless of anything after the rounds? .. why not towel everyone off? after the second round pretty much everyone is greased since you are allowed to place it on the face, it is transfered to the opponents chest, hands, arms and even back ... the vaseline was applied and wiped off, sure you can't get 100% of it off, but BJ wasn't toweled off, and he was bound to have some on his chest and arms from GSP's face while in guard ... i honestly don't see the need for vaseline being applied to the face even at the start of the fight, i guess it needs to be used when someone is cut ... let them fight again and see what happens ..

Why make a formal complaint?
Look at how many people just write it off and call BJ a whiner and a baby for complaining.

double standards, either take things seriously and be all for complaints,
or be the guy who calls everybody a baby and a whiner.

atomdanger
02-27-2009, 10:13 PM
exactly ... i don't disagree that nurse applied grease to gsp, but the rules state that if grease is applied to parts other than the face, they must be wiped off ... after the first, they saw nurse do this and did not act, after the second, they viewed it, reprimanded the corner and wiped gsp, after the third, they went in, made sure to grease was applied and wiped off GSP again .. Penn is trying to make an excuse out of an extremely one-sided beating he took ... that is all ... and penn fans will take this to their graves ... if they fight again, BJ and his fans will come out with something else ...


Again, rub vasoline all your your shoulders,
then see if it comes off with a quick towell wipe, it doesn't.

Anybody who has had vasoline on their hands knows even if you try to wipe it off its a pain in the ass to get off your skin.

atomdanger
02-28-2009, 02:04 AM
UFC president Dana White recently spoke to the Canadian Press, and here’s a few of the interesting quotes he gave during the interview:

“Do I think that he got greased? Yeah, I do.
Absolutely, 100 per cent, I think that that guy was rubbing grease on him.
Do I think Georges was trying to cheat? Absolutely not at all.
But that cornerman was rubbing grease on him. You cannot do that….You put another fighter at a huge disadvantage, which is very dangerous….
I think he was. I do. I think he absolutely, positively knew that he was rubbing grease on him.
I do. Nobody can tell me different. I watched the tape a million times.”

Spiritwalker
02-28-2009, 02:33 AM
Greg Jackson is on Inside MMA tonight.. looking forward to see what he says...

lc87
02-28-2009, 02:48 AM
Greg Jackson is on Inside MMA tonight.. looking forward to see what he says...

Do keep us posted on what goes on we don't get hdnet soim counting on ya.

Hughes_GOAT
02-28-2009, 03:20 AM
no, he was greased twice .. between the first and second ... after the first, there was no warning because the nsac official was pretty sure he saw the greasing, after the second, he saw the greasing, and warned them, told them not to do it and wiped off GSP ... after the third, they went out to ensure the corner wouldn't do it, which they didn't .. they then wiped down gsp again as a precaution ... the corner never disregarded a warning and continue to grease, they were warned and stopped doing it ..

i don't know where it is but i'm sure i read that he was warned twice to not do it.

Hughes_GOAT
02-28-2009, 03:21 AM
UFC president Dana White recently spoke to the Canadian Press, and here’s a few of the interesting quotes he gave during the interview:

“Do I think that he got greased? Yeah, I do.
Absolutely, 100 per cent, I think that that guy was rubbing grease on him.
Do I think Georges was trying to cheat? Absolutely not at all.
But that cornerman was rubbing grease on him. You cannot do that….You put another fighter at a huge disadvantage, which is very dangerous….
I think he was. I do. I think he absolutely, positively knew that he was rubbing grease on him.
I do. Nobody can tell me different. I watched the tape a million times.”

Dana is right for once

Hughes_GOAT
02-28-2009, 03:23 AM
Again, rub vasoline all your your shoulders,
then see if it comes off with a quick towell wipe, it doesn't.

Anybody who has had vasoline on their hands knows even if you try to wipe it off its a pain in the ass to get off your skin.

yes it is, since it is oil based. you need a degreaser to get it off easily. otherwise, warm soap and water, about a thousand times should do it. wiping him down only puts it into his pores and then he sweats it out.

atomdanger
02-28-2009, 04:22 AM
yes it is, since it is oil based. you need a degreaser to get it off easily. otherwise, warm soap and water, about a thousand times should do it. wiping him down only puts it into his pores and then he sweats it out.

Exactly.

Everybody keeps saying that they gave him a quick wipe so BJ should have had no problems,
but that isn't how the stuff comes off lol

Hughes_GOAT
02-28-2009, 04:25 AM
Exactly.

Everybody keeps saying that they gave him a quick wipe so BJ should have had no problems,
but that isn't how the stuff comes off lol
yeah, the wiping isn't going to do anything. in fact, it would make it worse by wiping it beyond where the vaseline was applied.

timmyja
02-28-2009, 06:29 AM
The only people disputing him as champion are BJ penn fans and BJ penn.



Anderson Silva will solve that dispute by the first of the year.. either by straight left, muaythai clinch... or a frickin sneeze in the general direction of GSP

Hughes_GOAT
02-28-2009, 04:46 PM
Anderson Silva will solve that dispute by the first of the year.. either by straight left, muaythai clinch... or a frickin sneeze in the general direction of GSP
then all the GSP fans will say how much bigger Silva was than GSP...totally forgetting how much bigger GSP is to Penn....yet still greased :laugh:

atomdanger
02-28-2009, 06:46 PM
then all the GSP fans will say how much bigger Silva was than GSP...totally forgetting how much bigger GSP is to Penn....yet still greased :laugh:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

logrus
02-28-2009, 08:33 PM
Anderson Silva will solve that dispute by the first of the year.. either by straight left, muaythai clinch... or a frickin sneeze in the general direction of GSP

Watch Gsp beats Silva because he miraculously was able to easily pull his head away from Silvas insane Muay-tai clinch.:laugh:

Bonnie
03-01-2009, 06:45 AM
Is there really gonna be a Silva/GSP match :w00t: , or are you guys just fool'n around? :unsure-1:

Hughes_GOAT
03-01-2009, 09:54 AM
Is there really gonna be a Silva/GSP match :w00t: , or are you guys just fool'n around? :unsure-1:
there's been talk of it....GSP has to clean out WW first, which he is doing.

even Matt had talked about moving up to fight Silva a couple of years ago.