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Spiritwalker
08-14-2010, 02:43 AM
Obama throws support behind controversial Islamic center

W-T-F!!???

I call for impeachment!!!!

Allowing this is STUPID!! IT'S DUMB!!!!

I am all for tolerance.. but Not this.. no way. no how. No forgiveness. I guess Osama knows how to deposit mad cash in Obama's bank account.

I have never said anything bad about our President.. other than I disagree.. now.. I loath him.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/13/obama.islamic.center.support/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama threw his support behind a controversial proposal to build an Islamic center and mosque near New York's ground zero, saying Friday that "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," Obama said at a White House Iftar dinner celebrating the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

The president's remarks drew praise from New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who announced his support for the Islamic center last week.

Bloomberg compared Obama's speech to a letter President George Washington wrote in support of a Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island. "President Obama's words tonight evoked President Washington's own August reminder that 'all possess alike liberty,' " Bloomberg said in a statement.

"I applaud President Obama's clarion defense of the freedom of religion tonight," he said.

Critics of the proposed Islamic center quickly denounced Obama's remarks. "Obama came out for the Islamic supremacist mosque at the hallowed ground of 911 attack," Pamela Geller wrote on her blog Friday night.

"He has, in effect, sided with the Islamic jihadists and...supports a triumphal mosque on the cherished site of Islamic conquest," she wrote.

Obama, who said he was speaking both as a citizen and as president, invoked the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, which critics of the Islamic center cite as the main reason for preventing its construction.

"We must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of lower Manhattan," Obama said, according to his prepared remarks. "The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country."

"The pain and suffering experienced by those who lost loved ones is unimaginable," he continued. "So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground zero is, indeed, hallowed ground."

But Obama said one "reason that we will win this fight" against terrorism is "our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect to those who are different from us -- a way of life that stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today."

Repeatedly invoking the nation's founders and examples of religious tolerance from American history, the president argued that national ideals and the Constitution demanded that the project proceed.

He noted that Thomas Jefferson hosted the the first Iftar dinner at the White House more than 200 years ago and said that the country had previously seen "controversies about the construction of synagogues or Catholic churches."

"But time and again," he said, "the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues."

"This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable," Obama said. "The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are. The writ of our Founders must endure."

The proposed Islamic center has provoked vocal opposition from some families of 9/11 victims and other groups. Nearly 70 percent of Americans oppose the plan, according to CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll released Wednesday.

Muslim Americans, meanwhile, applauded the speech. "It was pitch perfect and it was cut and dry," said Eboo Patel, executive director of the Interfaith Youth Core and a Muslim adviser to the White House on faith issues. "He said that our Founding Fathers built a nation on religious freedom where people from different faiths can pray and thrive and that is that."

The project's leaders say they plan to build the $100 million, 13-story facility called Cordoba House three blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks. The developer, Sharif El-Gamal, describes the project as an "Islamic community center" that will include a 500-seat performing arts center, a lecture hall, a swimming pool, a gym, a culinary school, a restaurant and a prayer space for Muslims.

On Wednesday, the project's developers declined an offer by New York Gov. David Paterson to relocate the project to a state-owned site.

Earlier this month, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission unanimously denied landmark status for the building where the proposed Islamic center would stand, allowing the project to move forward.

Llamafighter
08-14-2010, 03:58 AM
Impeached over supporting freedom of religion? That'd be weird...

flo
08-14-2010, 04:26 AM
When I heard about this tonight, I made a comment to my husband that was uncharitable, to say the least.

Impeachment proceedings require criminal action; the constitution has a broad definition of impeachable offenses (treason, bribery, etc) but Congress pretty much decides just what those are. So I guess you were just being rhetorical, eh? My head exploded too when I heard that BO decided he needed to weigh in on the controversy.

I don't think it's a matter of freedom to practice one's religion, it's really a zoning matter with HUGE emotional consequences. The RoP is once again showing it's total disregard and insensitivity to others while it takes offense (often deadly offense!) at the slightest perceived disrespect to Islam.

Even David Patterson recognizes the idiocy of this move.

flo
08-14-2010, 04:40 AM
I heard that the assets of the group wanting to build this thing are ~$17,000 (a matter of public record).

Seeing as its proposed costs will run over $100,000,000, it's curious why no one is insisting on knowing who will finance the project.

I'm all for Greg Gutfeld's plan to build a Muslim gay bar next door.

http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696

Very funny video of Greg and Glenn Beck talking about it ~

http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/08/10/greg-gutfeld-discusses-names-for-his-ground-zero-gay-bar-video/

Bonnie
08-14-2010, 06:39 AM
I heard that the assets of the group wanting to build this thing are ~$17,000 (a matter of public record).

Seeing as its proposed costs will run over $100,000,000, it's curious why no one is insisting on knowing who will finance the project.

I'm all for Greg Gutfeld's plan to build a Muslim gay bar next door.

http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696

Very funny video of Greg and Glenn Beck talking about it ~

http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/08/10/greg-gutfeld-discusses-names-for-his-ground-zero-gay-bar-video/

"Suspicious Packages" :laugh:

I enjoy Red Eye.

que
08-14-2010, 09:38 AM
he can't disagree with a religious center just because it happens to be a certain religion. that goes against the core of what the constitution is about

Neezar
08-14-2010, 11:16 AM
"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," Obama said at a White House Iftar dinner celebrating the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.


:rolleyes: At least he picked the right venue.

Spiritwalker
08-14-2010, 12:01 PM
Impeached over supporting freedom of religion? That'd be weird...

This to me has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

Do you see Amercian flags or Southern Babtist churches in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What do you think would happen to some Japanese people that wanted to build a museum of the Enola Gay ANYWHERE in Japan?

Do you see a lot of German based buildings in Londan?

You want to allow the creation of a building that honors a religion that was the moving force behind the worst terrorist attack in the US because we do have a freedom of religion.. (which I do agree with). OK.. fine.. but you don't do it ANYWHERE near the locaton of the attacks.

Obama saying "sure.. let's do this".. is like saying.. "It's ok.. we are over it"

Spiritwalker
08-14-2010, 12:08 PM
he can't disagree with a religious center just because it happens to be a certain religion. that goes against the core of what the constitution is about



Disagree.

No one is saying "You can't be a muslim." I am saying you can't have a muslim religious center near the locations of a terroris attack by specific types of mulsims.

And for the president of the United States of America to say.. "sure you can".. sickens me.

and you know what.. maybe.. just maybe... the Constitution says.. Freedom of Religion.. and again I agree with that.. right or wrong.. I agree with that.... But the Constitution says NOTHING about allowing Americans to be spit on.. after being smacked in the face. Which is what this is..

rockdawg21
08-14-2010, 01:23 PM
It's kind of a gray area, it's somewhat morally/patriotically wrong, but I can't wrong somebody for supporting one of our Constitutional rights. It's a tough one.

Spiritwalker
08-14-2010, 01:48 PM
It's kind of a gray area, it's somewhat morally/patriotically wrong, but I can't wrong somebody for supporting one of our Constitutional rights. It's a tough one.

But Freedom of religion.. is a right.. Allowing a muslim center at/near/around the location of a muslim based terrorist attck has nothing to do with that freedom.

It's a smack in the face.

While Impeachment is due to ileagel actions.. I kind think that this idea goes against the wishes and belifes of the country.. so.. just kick him out.. in a recall election.. works for me.

There is so much grey when it comes to obama.. it's too much for me to tolerate

County Mike
08-14-2010, 03:55 PM
What do you expect from a muslim president? Of course he's all for it. That's why the muslims planted him in politics in the first place. So far, their plan is working perfectly.

flo
08-14-2010, 05:20 PM
It's kind of a gray area, it's somewhat morally/patriotically wrong, but I can't wrong somebody for supporting one of our Constitutional rights. It's a tough one.

I agree with the first part of your sentiment but it's NOT a constitutional right to build a mosque (or anything else, for that matter!) wherever you want. It's a zoning issue. That's why we don't see churches amidst shopping malls or strip clubs next to schools.

The decision to deny historical significance to the building that will be torn down did not even have the usual hearings; it was fast-tracked through to accomodate the RoP.

So it will be a zoning suit that decides whether it will be built on the proposed site or not. Of course, the REAL issue is the insensitivity of these people to build next to the site where thousands of our citizens were murdered by Islamofascists, offending surviving family members and all of us who were devastated that day!.

rearnakedchoke
08-14-2010, 06:03 PM
probably not one of obama's most popular decisions, but you must admire his desire to not only be a good american by upholding the US constitution, but also a great Christian ...

Blade
08-14-2010, 06:51 PM
I agree with Spiritwalker and Country Mike, this is an outrage. I'm gonna go set up a big hog roast outside mecca and see how those turds like it.

Spiritwalker
08-14-2010, 07:02 PM
probably not one of obama's most popular decisions, but you must admire his desire to not only be a good american by upholding the US constitution, but also a great Christian ...

This is not a religious freedom issue.

This is about making a statement at the VERY least. No mosque, no Muslim religious center. Build dozens of cultural centers if you want. but not there.. not so close to where a bunch of muslims killed almost 2800 people in NYC alone.

I would admire a president that would stand up for the VAST majority of Americans and say.. "nah.. not going to happen on my watch"

But No.. he wants to try and appease the muslims.. well guess what.. I DO NOT CARE.

I tried to understand when he bowed to a leader of another country instead of meeting them as equals..
I tried to understand when he gave music to another..
I tried to understand why he didn't just call a press conference and say... "here is my birth certificate"
I tired to understand many things...

I don't understand how any American president could think that this is the right thing to do.

I honestly do not understand why most muslims would want to have their cultural center in this place..

Again.. to me.. this is not about religious freedoms, It's about remembering the past.

rearnakedchoke
08-14-2010, 08:52 PM
This is not a religious freedom issue.

This is about making a statement at the VERY least. No mosque, no Muslim religious center. Build dozens of cultural centers if you want. but not there.. not so close to where a bunch of muslims killed almost 2800 people in NYC alone.

I would admire a president that would stand up for the VAST majority of Americans and say.. "nah.. not going to happen on my watch"

But No.. he wants to try and appease the muslims.. well guess what.. I DO NOT CARE.

I tried to understand when he bowed to a leader of another country instead of meeting them as equals..
I tried to understand when he gave music to another..
I tried to understand why he didn't just call a press conference and say... "here is my birth certificate"
I tired to understand many things...

I don't understand how any American president could think that this is the right thing to do.

I honestly do not understand why most muslims would want to have their cultural center in this place..

Again.. to me.. this is not about religious freedoms, It's about remembering the past.

you may be right ... i don't know if other religious groups were barred from having their place of worship in this area ... if only a mosque is going here, than it may be an issue ... are there other religions asking to have their places of worship there?

rockdawg21
08-14-2010, 09:39 PM
But Freedom of religion.. is a right.. Allowing a muslim center at/near/around the location of a muslim based terrorist attck has nothing to do with that freedom.

It's a smack in the face.

While Impeachment is due to ileagel actions.. I kind think that this idea goes against the wishes and belifes of the country.. so.. just kick him out.. in a recall election.. works for me.

There is so much grey when it comes to obama.. it's too much for me to tolerate
Look, I'm not disagreeing with you that it's pretty f'ed up, but there isn't anything illegal about it. I agree there's a moral issue with it, but fighting it based on morals wouldn't accomplish anything.

I wouldn't worry about it. Some crazy radical group or individual will take care of the mosque.

If it makes you so upset, wait until it's built, then fly a plane into it. :laugh:

Bonnie
08-14-2010, 10:39 PM
I agree with the first part of your sentiment but it's NOT a constitutional right to build a mosque (or anything else, for that matter!) wherever you want. It's a zoning issue. That's why we don't see churches amidst shopping malls or strip clubs next to schools.

The decision to deny historical significance to the building that will be torn down did not even have the usual hearings; it was fast-tracked through to accomodate the RoP.

So it will be a zoning suit that decides whether it will be built on the proposed site or not. Of course, the REAL issue is the insensitivity of these people to build next to the site where thousands of our citizens were murdered by Islamofascists, offending surviving family members and all of us who were devastated that day!.

I agree with you flo and SW as far as this not being about freedom of religion. Like you said we have zoning laws. I heard someone say something yesterday when they were discussing this: There are lots of things we can do legally, under the Constitution, doesn't mean we should!

Obama talks a lot about the Constitution, freedom of religion, what our forefathers intended and said; he talks about "non-documented" workers and how much they do for our country and giving them a pathway to citizenship, blah, blah, blah.... For once, instead of him talking about freedoms for foreigners and illegals, I'd like to hear him talk about and defend the rights and freedoms of actual legal citizens of this country. I'd like for him to stand up for and protect the lives and rights of the people of Arizona instead of taking them to court and suing them. Just like this mosque deal isn't about freedom of religion, that lawsuit isn't about supremacy. As our president, he should be doing the will of the people, what's in the best interest of the citizens of this country. Now there's a novel idea. :wink:

flo
08-14-2010, 10:50 PM
For once, instead of him talking about freedoms for foreigners and illegals, I'd like to hear him talk about and defend the rights and freedoms of actual legal citizens of this country. I'd like for him to stand up for and protect the lives and rights of the people of Arizona instead of taking them to court and suing them. Just like this mosque deal isn't about freedom of religion, that lawsuit isn't about supremacy. As our president, he should be doing the will of the people, what's in the best interest of the citizens of this country. Now there's a novel idea. :wink:

Great points, Bonnie. Now wouldn't that be a refreshing change?

Play The Man
08-15-2010, 07:55 AM
But Freedom of religion.. is a right.. Allowing a muslim center at/near/around the location of a muslim based terrorist attck has nothing to do with that freedom.

It's a smack in the face.

While Impeachment is due to ileagel actions.. I kind think that this idea goes against the wishes and belifes of the country.. so.. just kick him out.. in a recall election.. works for me.

There is so much grey when it comes to obama.. it's too much for me to tolerate

Impeachment and/or recall are not going to happen. 0% chance. However, midterm elections are happening in November. It would be humiliating for him if the Democrats lost the House and the Senate and a bunch of Governorships. Make sure you vote in the November elections. Encourage your family and friends to vote in the November elections. If you have a few extra bucks or some extra time, donate to a good candidate or work for their campaign - make phone calls, put up signs, etc. You are a disciplined martial artist. Use your discipline to channel this disgust into effective action.

DonnaMaria
08-15-2010, 11:32 AM
Impeachment and/or recall are not going to happen. 0% chance. However, midterm elections are happening in November. It would be humiliating for him if the Democrats lost the House and the Senate and a bunch of Governorships. Make sure you vote in the November elections. Encourage your family and friends to vote in the November elections. If you have a few extra bucks or some extra time, donate to a good candidate or work for their campaign - make phone calls, put up signs, etc. You are a disciplined martial artist. Use your discipline to channel this disgust into effective action.

Excellent advice!

We need people to get involved in our schools too! Too much stuff gets passed by school boards because no one is interested enough to attend board meetings. But that's a WHOLE different thread! :)

Spiritwalker
08-15-2010, 12:03 PM
Impeachment and/or recall are not going to happen. 0% chance. However, midterm elections are happening in November. It would be humiliating for him if the Democrats lost the House and the Senate and a bunch of Governorships. Make sure you vote in the November elections. Encourage your family and friends to vote in the November elections. If you have a few extra bucks or some extra time, donate to a good candidate or work for their campaign - make phone calls, put up signs, etc. You are a disciplined martial artist. Use your discipline to channel this disgust into effective action.

Agreed.. Impeachment - Not going to happen. He hasn't done anything against the law (that we know of).

A recall is normally used for lower/local level elexted officals.. I don't think that there has ever even been an attempt at a president... seriously dobt it in this case.. too much apathy.. even if it's possible.

Oh I vote.. never worked for a campain before.. I don't wear short enough skirts...

I just hope that everyone remembers this .. and so many ofther things.. and guess what people..

I voted... tha tmean I have a right to complain. People at work yesterday were complaining.. I always ask.. "did you vote?" Most of the time I hear..."No.. too busy.. too tired.. ".. something like that.. and my only answer to them is that you have no right to complain after the fact.

Spiritwalker
08-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Excellent advice!

We need people to get involved in our schools too! Too much stuff gets passed by school boards because no one is interested enough to attend board meetings. But that's a WHOLE different thread! :)


Agreed.

Buzzard
08-15-2010, 03:27 PM
Some of the other "Ground Zero" neighbors.

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/ground-zero-mosque-name-belies-distance-from-world-trade-center-site-other-local-realities/19590651

Spiritwalker
08-16-2010, 02:53 AM
Some of the other "Ground Zero" neighbors.

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/ground-zero-mosque-name-belies-distance-from-world-trade-center-site-other-local-realities/19590651


And this is a bad thing? none of those are religious sites.

Llamafighter
08-16-2010, 03:06 AM
This to me has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

Do you see Amercian flags or Southern Babtist churches in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What do you think would happen to some Japanese people that wanted to build a museum of the Enola Gay ANYWHERE in Japan?

Do you see a lot of German based buildings in Londan?

You want to allow the creation of a building that honors a religion that was the moving force behind the worst terrorist attack in the US because we do have a freedom of religion.. (which I do agree with). OK.. fine.. but you don't do it ANYWHERE near the locaton of the attacks.

Obama saying "sure.. let's do this".. is like saying.. "It's ok.. we are over it"

I live in a neighborhood with multiple mosques and the guys that worship there get on the same train as me and go to the same crap job as me every day. Many of their brothers and sisters perished on 9-11 and they cried too.
they should have a place of peace and harmony down there too.
Would you ask that anyone of Muslim faith to be excluded from the memory wall?

Spiritwalker
08-16-2010, 04:20 AM
I live in a neighborhood with multiple mosques and the guys that worship there get on the same train as me and go to the same crap job as me every day. Many of their brothers and sisters perished on 9-11 and they cried too.
they should have a place of peace and harmony down there too.
Would you ask that anyone of Muslim faith to be excluded from the memory wall?

No they shouldn't. Hard to say.. but it's the truth. Maybe the Muslims that you know.. should reconsider any religion that condones terrorism. Any Muslim that thinks that this should happen... I would like to know why.

Even die hard Catholics have tried to distance themselves from the various crimes that was committed in their religions name.



The terrorists attacks on Sept 11 2001 were carried out by Muslim "holy warriors"

To have a church, athletic center, whatever.. that promotes this specific religion.. with in the general location of the attack does several things.

1. As many people say.. appears as a "victory"
2. Gives the impression that the states have "lost"
3. is INCREDIBLY insensitive to those that lost their families..I would be willing to bet many Muslims don't really want this place there anyway. And I would like to know the actual motivations to doing this.
4. Gives the impression that the United States no longer cares.. or forgives.

I don't forget. I won't forgive.

And I would like to hear any reasoning as to why there should be one (mosque, cultural center.. whatever) within even a MILE..

Tell these people that there should be any mosque-like building in this area...

http://www.socialearth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/911.jpg


Tell the kids.. who don't have a mom or dad.. or both.. that the religion that fueled their parents getting killed..."it's ok"

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/09/09/sepember_11_boy_1.jpg

J.B.
08-16-2010, 04:22 AM
I live in a neighborhood with multiple mosques and the guys that worship there get on the same train as me and go to the same crap job as me every day. Many of their brothers and sisters perished on 9-11 and they cried too.
they should have a place of peace and harmony down there too.
Would you ask that anyone of Muslim faith to be excluded from the memory wall?

You make an excellent point, and I personally would never say that all Muslims are responsible for what happened on 9/11. However, it really is in poor taste given the circumstances surrounding what happened. Tolerance is a two way road and Muslims should respect the fact that there is a high level of emotion involved with what happened in that area. It would be a nice showing of respect to the majority of people who are not Muslims and are not okay with them setting up a Mosque in that area if they simply put it somewhere else. It should be obvious at this point that it's going to be problem if and when it does open up, and it's only going to lead to some knuckle-head doing something stupid and violent.

Also, it is a bit funny to hear so many Muslims talking about religious freedoms when their native lands are some of the most oppressive in the world. I wonder if those same Muslims have a problem with only Muslims being able to travel to Mecca or Medina? I highly doubt it for the most part.

flo
08-16-2010, 04:27 AM
You make an excellent point, and I personally would never say that all Muslims are responsible for what happened on 9/11. However, it really is in poor taste given the circumstances surrounding what happened. Tolerance is a two way road and Muslims should respect the fact that there is a high level of emotion involved with what happened in that area. It would be a nice showing of respect to the majority of people who are not Muslims and are not okay with them setting up a Mosque in that area if they simply put it somewhere else. It should be obvious at this point that it's going to be problem if and when it does open up, and it's only going to lead to some knuckle-head doing something stupid and violent.

Also, it is a bit funny to hear so many Muslims talking about religious freedoms when their native lands are some of the most oppressive in the world. I wonder if those same Muslims have a problem with only Muslims being able to travel to Mecca or Medina? I highly doubt it for the most part.

Well-said, JB.

I have heard from several sources, Mark, that many moderate Muslims are asking this group not to build on this site.

Spiritwalker
08-16-2010, 04:29 AM
You make an excellent point, and I personally would never say that all Muslims are responsible for what happened on 9/11.

Does this mean that you don't think that they were?

J.B.
08-16-2010, 04:41 AM
Does this mean that you don't think that they were?

Do I believe every Muslim on planet earth is responsible for what happened? Absolutely not.

It's clear that there is a sector of Islam that is very radical, and the numbers in sheer volume is why I have always supported taking on these people head on. However, the majority of Muslims are not radical and that is a FACT, so it's not fair to label every Muslim as terrorist or terrorist sympathizer.

You ever heard of Fred Phelps? I won't even repeat the name of his Church because he don't deserve the publicity. Still, I would hope that his actions of standing outside of American soldiers funerals with signs that say "God Hates Fags" and telling people that the soldiers are going to burn in hell because of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy wouldn't be perceived by the public as a representation of how most Christians act. He is a radical and he is part of a small percentage of Christians with a warped view. Same thing with the radicals in Islam. They do not represent Islam on the whole.

As a Christian, I obviously am fundamentally against the religion of Islam all the way down to it's core. However, that does not mean that every one of it's followers are going to strap a bomb to their chest or hijack a plane. It only takes a few bad apples to make everybody hate the whole bushel.

Bonnie
08-16-2010, 06:25 AM
You make an excellent point, and I personally would never say that all Muslims are responsible for what happened on 9/11. However, it really is in poor taste given the circumstances surrounding what happened. Tolerance is a two way road and Muslims should respect the fact that there is a high level of emotion involved with what happened in that area. It would be a nice showing of respect to the majority of people who are not Muslims and are not okay with them setting up a Mosque in that area if they simply put it somewhere else. It should be obvious at this point that it's going to be problem if and when it does open up, and it's only going to lead to some knuckle-head doing something stupid and violent.

Also, it is a bit funny to hear so many Muslims talking about religious freedoms when their native lands are some of the most oppressive in the world. I wonder if those same Muslims have a problem with only Muslims being able to travel to Mecca or Medina? I highly doubt it for the most part.

They had to know what a hornet's nest this would stir up.

If something does happen, I can see it now, practically every news talk show will have some muslim group/organization on there talking about "hate crimes" against muslims.

9/11 was a hate crime wasn't it.

Spiritwalker
08-16-2010, 10:45 AM
Do I believe every Muslim on planet earth is responsible for what happened? Absolutely not.

Fair enough

It's clear that there is a sector of Islam that is very radical, and the numbers in sheer volume is why I have always supported taking on these people head on. However, the majority of Muslims are not radical and that is a FACT, so it's not fair to label every Muslim as terrorist or terrorist sympathizer.

OK, define "radical". What's the difference between the radical Muslim and a non-radical Muslim?

You ever heard of Fred Phelps? I won't even repeat the name of his Church because he don't deserve the publicity. Still, I would hope that his actions of standing outside of American soldiers funerals with signs that say "God Hates Fags" and telling people that the soldiers are going to burn in hell because of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy wouldn't be perceived by the public as a representation of how most Christians act. He is a radical and he is part of a small percentage of Christians with a warped view. Same thing with the radicals in Islam. They do not represent Islam on the whole.

Yes, I am familiar with him.. and should I ever get a chance to meet him.. I would walk up to him.. and though I am not homosexual at all.. I would plant a big kiss right on his mouth and say.. "thanks sweetie".. right in front of the cameras....

But that doesnt' change anything. He isn't wanting to put up one of his churches on a location of a bombed out gay bar.


As a Christian, I obviously am fundamentally against the religion of Islam all the way down to it's core. However, that does not mean that every one of it's followers are going to strap a bomb to their chest or hijack a plane. It only takes a few bad apples to make everybody hate the whole bushel.

I never said all Muslims are "bad". But I do feel that those who WANT this building built there.. I have to wonder. "why?". If you are so opposed to what a bunch of other Muslims did, in the name of your faith.. why would you want to rub salt in the wound like this?

J.B.
08-16-2010, 12:08 PM
OK, define "radical". What's the difference between the radical Muslim and a non-radical Muslim?

Well, "radical" could be interpreted many different ways depending on which side of the issue a person stands. Obviously, from my side I would say that anybody who believes they need to carry out some sort of "jihad" against the west would fall under the category of "radical Islam". Whereas owning a 7-11 in Dearborn Michigan and minding your own business while practicing your faith would be rather "non-radical". Again, as a Christian I have a fundamental disagreement with everything about Islam and from where I stand in life everything about their religion could be construed as "radical". However, I am using the term in a way that is relative to what typical behavior amongst most Muslims is.

Granted, the percentage of what is generally accepted as "radical Muslims" is much higher than anybody would like it to be, and thus is the reason I have always supported fighting them. When you have 1 billion people that are a part of something, and 10% of them are completely psycho, that is a serious situation when you are talking about what could be close to 100 million people (or just under 1/3 of the American population). Now, I don't know for a fact that it's 10%, but that is a number I have heard floated out there quite a bit and when you think about it, it really doesn't sound to far-fetched.


Yes, I am familiar with him.. and should I ever get a chance to meet him.. I would walk up to him.. and though I am not homosexual at all.. I would plant a big kiss right on his mouth and say.. "thanks sweetie".. right in front of the cameras....

But that doesnt' change anything. He isn't wanting to put up one of his churches on a location of a bombed out gay bar.


No, he's not, but my point was simply that he is part of a very small minority in the Christian community. When he spouts his hate and nonsense there are always a few who will then try to use that to paint ALL Christians under the same light.

I never said all Muslims are "bad". But I do feel that those who WANT this building built there.. I have to wonder. "why?". If you are so opposed to what a bunch of other Muslims did, in the name of your faith.. why would you want to rub salt in the wound like this?

I agree with you 100%. It is in poor taste for them to build a Mosque there, and it's bad judgment on the part of some who are probably not radical Muslims to try and rally behind this in the name of freedom of religion. They are inviting trouble and showing no respect for a very tragic and emotional issue that is still VERY fresh in the minds of Americans and will be for years to come. I am sure it's not just Christians who are upset by this. I am sure there are Jews, Atheists, Satanists, and even other Muslims who feel like this is out of line.

Neezar
08-16-2010, 02:23 PM
They had to know what a hornet's nest this would stir up.

If something does happen, I can see it now, practically every news talk show will have some muslim group/organization on there talking about "hate crimes" against muslims.

9/11 was a hate crime wasn't it.

If they put this up then it will be up to our government to protect them while they are in that building plotting our demise.

Yes, I believe whole heartedly that plotting is EXACTLY what they will be doing.

Miss Foxy
08-16-2010, 02:38 PM
Politics shmolitics..... Sucks bro and no one can deny that, but it's just another setback for us all as a nation..:wacko:

Buzzard
08-16-2010, 05:00 PM
What distance away from "Ground Zero" is acceptable for them to build their cultural center? It seems 2 blocks isn't far enough. Is it 2 miles, 200 miles or not in the city or state?

Do you think that the strip club should be moved away from that general location?

I'm just asking and wondering, not trying to to stick a spoon in and stir up this hornets nest.

Neezar
08-16-2010, 05:03 PM
What distance away from "Ground Zero" is acceptable for them to build their cultural center? It seems 2 blocks isn't far enough. Is it 2 miles, 200 miles or not in the city or state?

Do you think that the strip club should be moved away from that general location?

I'm just asking and wondering, not trying to to stick a spoon in and stir up this hornets nest.

Just use your common sense, Dude. It really is about the location. Ask them if two miles away would be acceptable. No one cares if they build it. Just where they build it. Just like you don't care for JB taking a shyte, you just don't want in your yard. What if it's on the edge? How about your sidewalk? Maybe 1 block down the road? How far away would it be okay?

That is exactly how your logic comes across. :laugh: This real question is WHY do they want it there.

J.B.
08-16-2010, 05:10 PM
Just like you don't care for JB taking a shyte, you just don't want in your yard. What if it's on the edge? How about your sidewalk? Maybe 1 block down the road? How far away would it be okay?


:laugh:

J.B.
08-16-2010, 05:15 PM
What distance away from "Ground Zero" is acceptable for them to build their cultural center? It seems 2 blocks isn't far enough. Is it 2 miles, 200 miles or not in the city or state?


How about Mecca?

Is that the answer you were looking for? :laugh:

rockdawg21
08-16-2010, 05:39 PM
How about Mecca?

Is that the answer you were looking for? :laugh:

:laugh:

Bonnie
08-16-2010, 06:21 PM
If they put this up then it will be up to our government to protect them while they are in that building plotting our demise.

Yes, I believe whole heartedly that plotting is EXACTLY what they will be doing.

Oh, they've been plotting, like you say, this just gives them a place they can congregate in large groups without looking suspicious. What better place to hide in plain sight. It's brilliant isn't it. They buy property (we still don't know who's funding this from what I understand), right around the corner from their previous successful attack on us, to build a mosque where they can gather all under the guise of "freedom of religion". And the most brilliant part of it all....we're helping them do it. We'll be sitting ducks (again) except this time we're knowingly helping them build their blind smack dab in the middle of us.

You would think after 9/11 we wouldn't be as gullible. Two sayings come to mind: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." and "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

:wink:

flo
08-16-2010, 08:40 PM
Just use your common sense, Dude. It really is about the location. Ask them if two miles away would be acceptable. No one cares if they build it. Just where they build it. Just like you don't care for JB taking a shyte, you just don't want in your yard. What if it's on the edge? How about your sidewalk? Maybe 1 block down the road? How far away would it be okay?



tee hee

Boomer
08-17-2010, 03:30 AM
You would think after 9/11 we wouldn't be as gullible. Two sayings come to mind: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." and "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

:wink:

Right on Bonnie!! :headbanger:

Spiritwalker
08-17-2010, 03:30 AM
Barack has messed up good!!!!!

Washington (CNN) -- By wading into the issue of an Islamic center and mosque near ground zero, President Barack Obama provided Republicans with an emotion-ridden attack vehicle while diverting attention from campaign themes of fellow Democrats.

A senior Republican strategist told CNN that GOP candidates are being encouraged to talk about the issue as much as possible.

In Florida, Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Scott launched a statewide television ad Monday criticizing Obama for backing the right of Muslims to build an Islamic center and mosque two blocks from where the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks killed more than 2,700 people.

"Barack Obama says building a mosque at ground zero is about tolerance," Scott says in the ad, looking directly into the camera. "He's wrong. It's about truth."

The "truth," Scott claims, is this: "Muslim fanatics murdered thousands of innocent Americans on 9/11, just yards from the proposed mosque."

"The fight against terrorism isn't over," Scott concludes. "Mr. President, ground zero is the wrong place for a mosque."

Meanwhile, a House Democratic leadership aide said the issue was dominating the political conversation when Democrats need to stress campaign themes such as economic recovery and saving social security.

"We understand why the president would want to talk about this issue, but the timing couldn't have been any worse," the House Democratic leadership aide told CNN.

Despite the concerns of Democrats, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada on Monday came out against building the Islamic center and mosque.

"The First Amendment protects freedom of religion. Sen. Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else," said a statement issued by Reid's spokesman, Jim Manley.

Reid is involved in a tough re-election campaign against conservative Republican Sharron Angle. The statement on the ground zero issue also called for Republicans to back a Democratic bill that would provide health care aid and compensation for firefighters, police officers and other first responders to the 9/11 attacks.

For its part, the White House sought to tamp down the discussion Monday. Speaking to reporters, White House spokesman Bill Burton sidestepped a question on Republican strategy and tried to declare the debate over.

"The president didn't do this because of the politics," Burton said, adding: "I think that it's a debate that was had and we've weighed in."

On Sunday, the topic dominated morning talk shows, with Republicans calling Obama insensitive for supporting the right of Muslims to build the Islamic center so close to ground zero.

Some predicted political repercussions for Democrats in November's congressional election, even though they agreed with Obama that freedom of religion is a vital part of American democracy.

"The Muslims have, as everyone else does, the right to practice their religion and they have the right to construct a mosque at ground zero if they wish," Rep. Peter King, R-New York, said on CNN's "State of the Union" program. "What I'm saying, though, is they should listen to public opinion, they should listen to the deep wounds and anguish this is causing to so many good people."

Republican strategist Ed Rollins, a senior political contributor to CNN, summed up the GOP perspective.

"Intellectually, the president may be right, but this is an emotional issue, and people who lost kids, brothers, sisters, fathers, what have you, do not want that mosque in New York, and it's going to be a big, big issue for Democrats across this country," Rollins said on the CBS program "Face the Nation."

On the same program, Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine challenged the Republican logic.

"You know, we see an awful lot of Republicans going out and saying we've got to respect the Constitution, and that means we have to respect it," Kaine said. "We can't tarnish people's First Amendment rights."

Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania said on the CBS program that the Islamic center issue shouldn't have political resonance.

"I can't imagine that any American -- given the challenges facing this country -- is going to vote based on what he said about the mosque," Rendell said of the November election. "The mosque is an unfortunate situation, but we do have a right to practice our religion freely wherever we choose. Rights are not subject to the popular vote or majority vote."

In his speech at a White House dinner Friday marking the start of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, Obama said Muslims "have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," the president added.

The next day, Obama told CNN Chief White House Correspondent Ed Henry that he was "not commenting on the wisdom" of the project, just the broader principle that the government should treat "everyone equal, regardless" of religion.

His comments were considered by some to backtrack from what he said at the dinner, prompting a White House spokesman to further clarify the president's remarks later Saturday.

Both the topic and Obama'sneed to clarify his initial remarks evoked criticism from Republicans.

Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, told "FOX News Sunday" that Obama's stance demonstrated how "Washington, the White House, the administration, the president himself seems to be disconnected from the mainstream of America."

"This is sort of the dichotomy that people sense, that they're being lectured to -- not listened to -- and I think that's the reason why a lot of people are very upset with Washington," Cornyn said.

On the CNN program, King said Obama's lack of clarity further muddied the issue.

"If the president was going to get into this, he should have been much more clear, much more precise, and you can't be changing your position from day to day on an issue which does go to our Constitution, and it also goes to extreme sensitivity," King said.

Democrats responded that critics fail to distinguish between the al Qaeda terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attacks and the Islam religion, which includes peaceful adherents all over the world, including the United States.

"It is only insensitive if you regard Islam as the culprit as opposed to al Qaeda as the culprit," Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-New York, said on the CNN program. "We were not attacked by all Muslims. .... There were Muslims killed there. There were Muslims who ran in as first responders to help."

The issue was one of personal rights, not political popularity, Nadler said, adding: "We do not put the Bill of Rights, we do not put the religious freedom to a vote."

The House Democratic leadership aide lamented that the topic was getting so much attention.

"We were supposed to be talking about Social Security in this coming week," the aide said, referring to Democratic criticism of Republican calls to privatize the government-run pension program. "This is a really good issue for us. And instead, we're talking about the mosque."

Obama's remarks Friday drew praise from New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who announced his support for the Islamic center last week. Bloomberg compared Obama's speech to a letter former President George Washington wrote more than two centuries ago in support of a Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island.

In the speech, Obama called the 9/11 attacks "a deeply traumatic event for our country."

"The pain and suffering experienced by those who lost loved ones is unimaginable," Obama continued. "So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground zero is, indeed, hallowed ground."

The Islamic center's leaders say they plan to build the $100 million, 13-story facility called Cordoba House two blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks. The developer, Sharif el-Gamal, describes the project as an "Islamic community center" that would include a 500-seat performing arts center, a lecture hall, a swimming pool, a gym, a culinary school, a restaurant and a prayer space for Muslims.

Nearly 70 percent of Americans oppose the plan, according to a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll released Wednesday.

Buzzard
08-17-2010, 09:01 AM
Just use your common sense, Dude. It really is about the location. Ask them if two miles away would be acceptable. No one cares if they build it. Just where they build it. Just like you don't care for JB taking a shyte, you just don't want in your yard. What if it's on the edge? How about your sidewalk? Maybe 1 block down the road? How far away would it be okay?

That is exactly how your logic comes across. :laugh: This real question is WHY do they want it there.

I would suggest to you that you use your common sense. Why don't you ask them why they want it there.

Personally, I wish that no religious buildings were allowed to be erected unless they paid tax like every other business enterprise.

Your analogy fails. Is the center going to be built in the "yard" of Ground Zero? Nope, not at all, in fact it will be built 2 blocks away.

Tolerance is a 2 way street, though the Christian religious right in this country only want it to be a one way one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzp5sKG0NX0&playnext=1&videos=7gLIFpzN4yc&feature=sub

Sums it up quite well.

J.B.
08-17-2010, 10:00 AM
Tolerance is a 2 way street, though the Christian religious right in this country only want it to be a one way one.

I already used that line in this thread, and seeing as how we obviously agree on that much... Would you care to enlighten me as to why it would be so out of line for those who are in favor of building a Mosque to be tolerant and respectful of the high level of emotion associated with what happened in that area and the fact that the majority of people would rather they built it somewhere else?

Or is it only white Christians in America who need to be "tolerant"? (see, I can add stupid pointless hype to my questions to you, just like you do to everybody here)

Or would you rather just keep trolling the politics section trying to paint the majority of MHF members as bigots? (that's not hype, that's exactly what you do)

Spiritwalker
08-17-2010, 11:27 AM
I would suggest to you that you use your common sense. Why don't you ask them why they want it there.

Doesn't matter why they do.. but they do. It doesn't matter to me at all. But it should not be done.

Personally, I wish that no religious buildings were allowed to be erected unless they paid tax like every other business enterprise.

nothing wrong with that.

Your analogy fails. Is the center going to be built in the "yard" of Ground Zero? Nope, not at all, in fact it will be built 2 blocks away.

2 miles would be too close IMO...

Tolerance is a 2 way street, though the Christian religious right in this country only want it to be a one way one.

lol.. that's funny... Christian religious right don't think it should be there... I know a bunch of Jews that don't think it should be there.. I know a few praticing Hinuds that say it's a bad idea.. I know a few people that say that they are atheists that say this is a bad idea.. I for one.. am not a follower of any specific religion and I don't want it there...

I bet there are even some Northern Tree Moss worshipers.. that don't like the idea .. But the Southern Tree Moss worshipers.. think it's a great idea.. but they also like to eat their own babies.. (which is why their numbers are so low all the time.. the little guys just learn to crawl fast!!)

If members of every major/minor religion think "Nope not a good idea".. Or are actually saying......"whoa their you crazy kids... What are you thinkin????.. Those New Yorkers will F'ing KILL YOU"

If so many religions can comes together and so.. "Nah.. dumb idea. Don't do it".. Then IT'S NOT A RELIGIOUS THING... but maybe.. just maybe.. it's a religious thing to the Muslims that want it there.. (how's that for a conspericy theory).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzp5sKG0NX0&playnext=1&videos=7gLIFpzN4yc&feature=sub

Sums it up quite well.

If you say...


I was lucky in that I lost no one close to me that day. And even though I lost nothing personally.. the THOUGHT of a Mosque and or a Muslim religious cutural center so close to where a select few muslims committed one of the largest mass murders in one day (actually just a few hours) Under the guise of their religion.. SICKENS me.

And anyone who thinks that this is "the right thing to do".. just leaves me scrathing my head.."Are we talking about the same thing??"

Miss Foxy
08-17-2010, 03:56 PM
I already used that line in this thread, and seeing as how we obviously agree on that much... Would you care to enlighten me as to why it would be so out of line for those who are in favor of building a Mosque to be tolerant and respectful of the high level of emotion associated with what happened in that area and the fact that the majority of people would rather they built it somewhere else?

Or is it only white Christians in America who need to be "tolerant"? (see, I can add stupid pointless hype to my questions to you, just like you do to everybody here)

Or would you rather just keep trolling the politics section trying to paint the majority of MHF members as bigots? (that's not hype, that's exactly what you do)

How do you get he is making anyone as bigots or only for "whites" in this? I totally missed something? :unsure-1:

Miss Foxy
08-17-2010, 03:57 PM
Doesn't matter why they do.. but they do. It doesn't matter to me at all. But it should not be done.



nothing wrong with that.



2 miles would be too close IMO...



lol.. that's funny... Christian religious right don't think it should be there... I know a bunch of Jews that don't think it should be there.. I know a few praticing Hinuds that say it's a bad idea.. I know a few people that say that they are atheists that say this is a bad idea.. I for one.. am not a follower of any specific religion and I don't want it there...

I bet there are even some Northern Tree Moss worshipers.. that don't like the idea .. But the Southern Tree Moss worshipers.. think it's a great idea.. but they also like to eat their own babies.. (which is why their numbers are so low all the time.. the little guys just learn to crawl fast!!)

If members of every major/minor religion think "Nope not a good idea".. Or are actually saying......"whoa their you crazy kids... What are you thinkin????.. Those New Yorkers will F'ing KILL YOU"

If so many religions can comes together and so.. "Nah.. dumb idea. Don't do it".. Then IT'S NOT A RELIGIOUS THING... but maybe.. just maybe.. it's a religious thing to the Muslims that want it there.. (how's that for a conspericy theory).





If you say...


I was lucky in that I lost no one close to me that day. And even though I lost nothing personally.. the THOUGHT of a Mosque and or a Muslim religious cutural center so close to where a select few muslims committed one of the largest mass murders in one day (actually just a few hours) Under the guise of their religion.. SICKENS me.

And anyone who thinks that this is "the right thing to do".. just leaves me scrathing my head.."Are we talking about the same thing??"

+1!!!

Tyburn
08-17-2010, 07:16 PM
Impeached over supporting freedom of religion? That'd be weird...

Impeached over supporting freedom of religons Religion in the time of the Consitution was Christian, the freedom was from denominational oppression which had shed blood during the reformation.

Americans constitutionally have the freedom to express any denomination of The Christian Religion.

The modern interpretation has changed the fundemental pragmatism...and its interpretors use the separation of State and Church to prove this...without realizing that the reason that was done, was NOT to prevent a relgious Government...but to prevent a particular Denomination of Christianity being imposed on the rest of Christondom...as had happened in England during the reformation.

Little Luciferian Twists...little changes in the pragmatism...and now suddenly Americans have the Freedom to worship anything?? that was NEVER the intention :sad:

So theoretically, yes, he is being unconstitutional. He should only be promoting freedom of Christianity...and he should be doing that by making sure no one denomination is backed or favoured by the State and that there is peace between the denominations.

Spiritwalker
08-17-2010, 07:20 PM
Impeached over supporting freedom of religons Religion in the time of the Consitution was Christian, the freedom was from denominational oppression which had shed blood during the reformation.

Americans constitutionally have the freedom to express any denomination of The Christian Religion.

No.. any religion. ANY

The modern interpretation has changed the fundemental pragmatism...and its interpretors use the separation of State and Church to prove this...without realizing that the reason that was done, was NOT to prevent a relgious Government...but to prevent a particular Denomination of Christianity being imposed on the rest of Christondom...as had happened in England during the reformation.

Little Luciferian Twists...little changes in the pragmatism...and now suddenly Americans have the Freedom to worship anything?? that was NEVER the intention :sad:

Wrong

So theoretically, yes, he is being unconstitutional. He should only be promoting freedom of Christianity...and he should be doing that by making sure no one denomination is backed or favoured by the State and that there is peace between the denominations.

Wrong again. Please don't derail this thread by doing this again.

Tyburn
08-17-2010, 07:23 PM
1) No.. any religion. ANY



2) Wrong



3) Wrong again. Please don't derail this thread by doing this again.

1) the word Religion doesnt have the pragmatical basis your ascribing to it.
2) No I am right actually
3) I am not derailing anything, nor doing "this again" whatever thats supposed to mean

If you dont believe me...ask Nathan Rosario :)

Spiritwalker
08-17-2010, 07:27 PM
1) the word Religion doesnt have the pragmatical basis your ascribing to it.
2) No I am right actually
3) I am not derailing anything, nor doing "this again" whatever thats supposed to mean

If you dont believe me...ask Nathan Rosario :)


Nate can be wrong as well.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Ratified on September 25, 1789 and adopted on December 15, 1791.

Tyburn
08-17-2010, 07:37 PM
Nate can be wrong as well.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Ratified on September 25, 1789 and adopted on December 15, 1791.

Nathan isnt wrong. The above is correct. Its not the word that im desputing...its the meaning. Establishment of Religion, means the Federal Government can not establish a denominational Church. This is so that, the Federal Government avoids favouring any particular branch of christondom which WOULD be default prohibit the free exercise of any other...as was done in the reformation...They killed people for the denomination they were part of...think of it like a religious civil war within the same religion...the people who escaped that tried to ensure it could never happen again...so they tried to create laws to stop an established church.

At the time it would be unthinkable to be any other religion, except possibly Jewish, who share half the scriptures anyway. They didnt need to put in writing what was an assumption...the assumption being obviously those in Government would be religious also.

But its morphed around that word...because Christian, and Religion, are no longer interchangable...during the writing of your consitution and the formation of your country those two words meant THE SAME THING.

So...the question is...do you wish to keep in line with its authors...or to update the meaning? if you update the meaning, how can you claim the document is still adheared to?? You cant....unless you either openly deny its Christian basis to begin with...which is a lie...OR you make the extraordinary claim that the constitution is non perfect, thus able to evolve and adapt to the times. I would ask you if you took that view...why bother keeping it at all? Switch to common law...thats complete political evolution...Consitutions are supposed to be permanent, and unchanging...they are a mirror of scriptures in Christian Countries...they are designed to be the national identity, the embodiment of the nation, a ceaseless sameness that provides stability and continuity, truthful in all places, relevent in all times. :)

Spiritwalker
08-17-2010, 07:50 PM
Nathan isnt wrong. The above is correct. Its not the word that im desputing...its the meaning. Establishment of Religion, means the Federal Government can not establish a denominational Church.

Funny.. I just went and did a search through the Consitituion.. no where is the word "church" or "denomiantion" found.. Sounds to me like they were talking about Religion.

This is so that, the Federal Government avoids favouring any particular branch of christondom which WOULD be default prohibit the free exercise of any other...as was done in the reformation...They killed people for the denomination they were part of...think of it like a religious civil war within the same religion...the people who escaped that tried to ensure it could never happen again...so they tried to create laws to stop an established church.

But it's no so.. And you think that the founding fathers of the US were all Christian?

At the time it would be unthinkable to be any other religion, except possibly Jewish, who share half the scriptures anyway. They didnt need to put in writing what was an assumption...the assumption being obviously those in Government would be religious also.

So you say that the founding fathers "assumed".. And/or that Jews were not a recognized religion at this time?

But its morphed around that word...because Christian, and Religion, are no longer interchangable...during the writing of your consitution and the formation of your country those two words meant THE SAME THING.

No it didn't.

So...the question is...do you wish to keep in line with its authors...or to update the meaning? if you update the meaning, how can you claim the document is still adheared to?? You cant....unless you either openly deny its Christian basis to begin with...which is a lie...OR you make the extraordinary claim that the constitution is non perfect, thus able to evolve and adapt to the times. I would ask you if you took that view...why bother keeping it at all? Switch to common law...thats complete political evolution...Consitutions are supposed to be permanent, and unchanging...they are a mirror of scriptures in Christian Countries...they are designed to be the national identity, the embodiment of the nation, a ceaseless sameness that provides stability and continuity, truthful in all places, relevent in all times. :)

OK.. if that's the case, you just proved my point. EVEN IF.. every person that signed the Constitution were Christian.. they were building a country for ALL. Christian or non Christian.

Sorry you are wrong.. but .. well.. you are wrong.

Tyburn
08-17-2010, 08:15 PM
1) Funny.. I just went and did a search through the Consitituion.. no where is the word "church" or "denomiantion" found.. Sounds to me like they were talking about Religion.



2) But it's no so.. And you think that the founding fathers of the US were all Christian?



3)So you say that the founding fathers "assumed".. And/or that Jews were not a recognized religion at this time?



4) No it didn't.



5) OK.. if that's the case, you just proved my point. EVEN IF.. every person that signed the Constitution were Christian.. they were building a country for ALL. Christian or non Christian.

6) Sorry you are wrong.. but .. well.. you are wrong.

1) you wont find the word church or denomination because at the time of writing Religion was synonomous with those words. If you understood the basic grasp of the age that spawned your consitution, where the people came from, then you might understand.

2) Maybe not by todays standards, but during that age, yes. Deists and Freemasons could be considered Christians. Not these days...but we recalling to mind the situation as it was then, not as it is now.

3) Assumed? Secularisation would probably never have even crossed their minds. How were they supposed to plan prior to the Enlightenment, to safeguard Christianity from Post-Modernity? how can you plan for something beyond changes you think would be possible. The closest we can say was that it was assumed yes....or rather, no other possibilities were accounted for as none presented themselves within the authors life time.

I dont know much about Jewish regards in early America...I know the vast majority were Christians, persecuted in their own lands for the denominational values they held. Jews are always persecuted, I guess they came along also.

4) Yes, actually it did. One Faith, One Church, One Baptism. Your thinking way to post modernistic. These were times before mass communication. Do you think George Washington had ever heard of Taoism for example :huh:

5) they were building a Free and GODfearing nation, under something known as "Divine Providence" which is GODs Will. Freedom...which is what Christ claims to give to his followers, is not the post modern ideal of freedom, which is based on moral relativity and anarchy. Freedom under Christ, is the sort of Freedom one has under a Monarch. They are provided for, cared for, nurtured. The United States is still technically speaking a Constitutional Monarchy....its just that The King, is not a human figure in Government. The American King is Almighty GOD...do you follow? That was absolutely the thought of your founders, they were explicit when they were frightened and scared, but brave enough to stand up to the super power of their day and say "Enough"

6) the difference with America...is that her core is not about being born in a specific geographic location. Her core is several ideals. America is to all other countries, what Judaism is to all other religions. Distinctly different. You can build America anywhere because she is a living philosophy that unites a vast range of people. That is very unique in the political world...we havent seen that sort of ethos in thousands of years...and when we last saw it...it was to do with Families and tribes...hence Judaism...In truth, you cant decide to become a jew...although they accept it...because what were the Jews? they were a blood family. if you dont carry their genetic material...do you follow?

Blade
08-17-2010, 08:23 PM
There is only one thing that needs to be said in this thread and that is :

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/zhangkriek/bus.gif

Crisco
08-17-2010, 11:19 PM
It's not about whether they have the right... It's about what is right..

I believe in their right to build I just don't like it.

Spiritwalker
08-18-2010, 02:46 AM
blah blah blah....



Your so wrong.. I won't even go into to it anymore. But it's ok for you to go on thinking the way you do.. I get a good laugh when you tell me what my country is founded on...

Neezar
08-18-2010, 11:11 AM
Again I ask what does Freedom of religion have to do with the location of a building? :unsure-1:

I can't put a mobile home up in a housing subdivision but I can live in a mobile home. That isn't violating my freedoms? Not wanting them to build in THAT location has NOTHING whatsoever to do with freedom to worship whatever and however they want.

Spiritwalker
08-18-2010, 11:14 AM
Again I ask what does Freedom of religion have to do with the location of a building? :unsure-1:

I can't put a mobile home up in a housing subdivision but I can live in a mobile home. That isn't violating my freedoms? Not wanting them to build in THAT location has NOTHING whatsoever to do with freedom to worship whatever and however they want.

/Back On Track!! Thnks!!

Neezar
08-18-2010, 11:22 AM
/Back On Track!! Thnks!!

Did you answer and I missed it?

Do you believe that not allowing them to build in this particular location is infringing on their freedoms of religion?

Tyburn
08-18-2010, 11:28 AM
Did you answer and I missed it?



No. He probably cant answer you neither :laugh:

Spiritwalker
08-18-2010, 11:47 AM
Did you answer and I missed it?

Do you believe that not allowing them to build in this particular location is infringing on their freedoms of religion?


I didn't realize that you were asking me this specifically. I had already said this in post #8, #11, #16, #28, #34 and , #49

No I do not. I have never said that they shouldn't be able to build their mosques.. I just don't think that there should be one built in a location reletive to a terrorist attack that was driven by their religion.


And Dave, again you just proved my point that you never read.. you just talk.

Tyburn
08-18-2010, 11:49 AM
I didn't realize that you were asking me this specifically.


Who did you think she was asking specifically :rolleyes:

of course I read, otherwise I wouldnt know what to reply would I :laugh:

Spiritwalker
08-18-2010, 11:57 AM
Who did you think she was asking specifically :rolleyes:

of course I read, otherwise I wouldnt know what to reply would I :laugh:


Going from the other posts in this thread by Neezer.. looks like it was a general question to have this thread back on track.

Buzzard
08-18-2010, 01:50 PM
http://newstrust.net/stories/2943556/toolbar?ref=hp

Another interesting take on it. Heck, Glen Beck even speaks.

Buzzard
08-18-2010, 01:51 PM
Did you answer and I missed it?

Do you believe that not allowing them to build in this particular location is infringing on their freedoms of religion?

Yes.

Spiritwalker
08-18-2010, 02:34 PM
Yes.

Why is building this mosque in this location a religious right?

J.B.
08-18-2010, 02:57 PM
Yes.

Good thing nobody cares what you think...:wink:

Buzzard
08-18-2010, 06:06 PM
Good thing nobody cares what you think...:wink:

Obviously you do because you follow me around like a lost puppy.:wink:

Tyburn
08-18-2010, 07:05 PM
Going from the other posts in this thread by Neezer.. looks like it was a general question to have this thread back on track.

:laugh: nice addition of motive there. :laugh:

J.B.
08-18-2010, 11:34 PM
Obviously you do because you follow me around like a lost puppy.:wink:

When you come in these threads just to stir the pot and try paint people as bigots, I will respond. Nobody else does because most of them either have you on ignore or they just laugh at you. I could care less what you say, because 9 times out of 10 it is nothing but nonsense or trollish insinuations, but nobody follows you around. Nobody HAS to follow you around, because this is where you dwell, in the politics section and nowhere else. You have probably made 10 posts collectively about MMA or Matt Hughes the entire time you have been here.

Play The Man
08-19-2010, 01:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlCiX0LIqA

flo
08-19-2010, 01:53 AM
Thank you, PTM; that brought it all back and certainly puts the issue into perspective.

matthughesfan21
08-19-2010, 02:31 AM
Impeached over supporting freedom of religons Religion in the time of the Consitution was Christian, the freedom was from denominational oppression which had shed blood during the reformation.

Americans constitutionally have the freedom to express any denomination of The Christian Religion.

The modern interpretation has changed the fundemental pragmatism...and its interpretors use the separation of State and Church to prove this...without realizing that the reason that was done, was NOT to prevent a relgious Government...but to prevent a particular Denomination of Christianity being imposed on the rest of Christondom...as had happened in England during the reformation.

Little Luciferian Twists...little changes in the pragmatism...and now suddenly Americans have the Freedom to worship anything?? that was NEVER the intention :sad:

So theoretically, yes, he is being unconstitutional. He should only be promoting freedom of Christianity...and he should be doing that by making sure no one denomination is backed or favoured by the State and that there is peace between the denominations.I don't feel like arguing with you, but I don't think your right on this, I'm not going to go on an internet scavenger hunt for links, but several of the prominent founding fathers were opposed to Christianity..So i doubt that they would be meaning "You have the freedom to be whatever Christian you want"

Mark
08-19-2010, 03:07 AM
Yes.

Wrong!

Neezar
08-19-2010, 03:17 AM
Yes.

So by not allowing them to worship in a particular place is an infringement?

If I remember correctly you are all about NOT praying or pledging to God in schools. Why is that not infringment?

Spiritwalker
08-19-2010, 03:23 AM
Yes.

Can you LIST the reasoning behind your answer??

Llamafighter
08-19-2010, 03:23 AM
I think honestly the majority of New Yorkers don't mind because most of us live in a neighborhood that has a mosque or two in the vicinity. we shop at stores run by Muslims, and work with people (in office buildings) of the same faith. I think the families of those who died get special exception because emotionally they have a lot more invested in the site. even more than the regular american who saw the events on 9-11 on TV, and cannot forget the images of that day. Those families not only lost their sense of security (as many of us did), they lost someone they loved personally, due to the direct actions of a person that (radical or not) was Muslim.
The survivors and families of the 9-11 victims have every right to protest, but I personally don't see any harm in the mosque going up. I think that building will be inhabited not unlike the other thousands of buildings on the island of Manhattan and people will walk by it without a second notice. on the other hand I know that ground zero is one of the most heavily surveillanced areas in NYC, so honestly, if you're going to put a giant Mosque anywhere why not there. My opinion.

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Why is building this mosque in this location a religious right?

It's not a religious right, but a constitutional right to practice the religion of their choosing. The opposition to the construction is chiefly due to the religion that would be practiced in the building, namely the religion of Islam.

What people don't seem to realize is that there are many forms of Islam, as with Christianity. ie Lutherans, Baptists, etc. To blame all forms of Islam due to the acts of a single terrorist sect would be the same as holding all Christian denominations responsible for the acts done by Eric Rudolph.

Believe me, it pains me to have to defend the rights of the religious but is necessary none the less.

VCURamFan
08-19-2010, 03:40 PM
So by not allowing them to worship in a particular place is an infringement?

If I remember correctly you are all about NOT praying or pledging to God in schools. Why is that not infringment?
Hmmmm, over 12hrs & yet Buzz hasn't bothered to respond to this yet. :Whistle: :laugh:

Spiritwalker
08-19-2010, 03:41 PM
It's not a religious right, but a constitutional right to practice the religion of their choosing. The opposition to the construction is chiefly due to the religion that would be practiced in the building, namely the religion of Islam.

What people don't seem to realize is that there are many forms of Islam, as with Christianity. ie Lutherans, Baptists, etc. To blame all forms of Islam due to the acts of a single terrorist sect would be the same as holding all Christian denominations responsible for the acts done by Eric Rudolph.

Believe me, it pains me to have to defend the rights of the religious but is necessary none the less.

But no one is saying that they can't build one. They are saying that to build one in this location is "at best" poor taste. Can't you understand that?

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 03:42 PM
When you come in these threads just to stir the pot and try paint people as bigots, I will respond. Nobody else does because most of them either have you on ignore or they just laugh at you. I could care less what you say, because 9 times out of 10 it is nothing but nonsense or trollish insinuations, but nobody follows you around. Nobody HAS to follow you around, because this is where you dwell, in the politics section and nowhere else. You have probably made 10 posts collectively about MMA or Matt Hughes the entire time you have been here.

You follow me around, hence the lost puppy quip.

If people have me on ignore, that is their right and their choosing. Why they don't engage in discussion is their matter not mine. I'd love to hear the opinions of these so called PWIM's and if they ever change their mind and wish to engage, I welcome it.

This is at least the second time you have made a statement about where and how many times I post. What are you some kind of forum monitor? I'll post where and when I want without any explanations to you. Get used to it and if you can't, put me on ignore. Honestly, grow up and quit stalking and monitoring my every move.

Also, quit putting words in my mouth or assuming my intentions. Since you brought my intentions up, here is what I would say in regards to your statement about me painting those on here as bigots if there was truth to your statement.

If you are going to give me the paint, brush, and paint by numbers kit, don't be offended by the portrait once it is completed, as I painted it according to the instructions given.

Now go away kid, you're bothering me.

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Wrong!

Nope, right. Read my explanation.

Do you care to elaborate on why my answer is wrong in your opinion?

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Hmmmm, over 12hrs & yet Buzz hasn't bothered to respond to this yet. :Whistle: :laugh:

Hey brainless, read the post above yours. I do one topic at a time.

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 03:47 PM
But no one is saying that they can't build one. They are saying that to build one in this location is "at best" poor taste. Can't you understand that?

Oh I can understand it, but the location where they want it built isn't hallowed ground. I think it is in poor taste to place the blame on all forms of Islam.

Miss Foxy
08-19-2010, 03:55 PM
Ok forget the religious aspect this is a slap in the face to all people who sadly were killed that day!! All the troops who have died in combat, their families left here with just memories, and also for the people who had to clean up this mess. Let's not forget the people across the world who witnessed this on tv and has shed a tear!! This just ain't right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care what anyone wants to quote on the constitution or other documents...Sometimes things are just wrong and this is WRONG!!!

CAVEMAN
08-19-2010, 03:57 PM
The bottom line is this......the Muslims in favor of building that mosque know exactly what took place just 2 blocks down the street in 2001. They don't care! They are pouring salt in the wounds and they know it!

Build it somewhere else!

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 03:58 PM
So by not allowing them to worship in a particular place is an infringement?

You are making strawman arguments, but I'll answer anyway.

Not allowing someone to build a building on private land which they want to make as a cultural center with a place for prayers is an infringement if you solely disallow the construction of it due to the religion which would be practiced there. I hope I was able to clarify my point.

Would you find it unconstitutional if a Christian church wasn't allowed to be built in Atlanta because of the actions of Eric Rudolph, a Christian terrorist?



If I remember correctly you are all about NOT praying or pledging to God in schools. Why is that not infringment?


You don't remember correctly. If folks want to pray on their own time without taking away time from non-believers or folks with different beliefs, go for it. No one is telling any student that they can't pray, therefore no infringement. I'm sure there is still a lot of prayers before test times.

J.B.
08-19-2010, 04:03 PM
You follow me around, hence the lost puppy quip.

If people have me on ignore, that is their right and their choosing. Why they don't engage in discussion is their matter not mine. I'd love to hear the opinions of these so called PWIM's and if they ever change their mind and wish to engage, I welcome it.

This is at least the second time you have made a statement about where and how many times I post. What are you some kind of forum monitor? I'll post where and when I want without any explanations to you. Get used to it and if you can't, put me on ignore. Honestly, grow up and quit stalking and monitoring my every move.

Also, quit putting words in my mouth or assuming my intentions. Since you brought my intentions up, here is what I would say in regards to your statement about me painting those on here as bigots if there was truth to your statement.

If you are going to give me the paint, brush, and paint by numbers kit, don't be offended by the portrait once it is completed, as I painted it according to the instructions given.

Now go away kid, you're bothering me.

I guess you couldn't comprehend it the first time I said it. Nobody has to follow you around, you only troll this section. Besides, in case you hadn't noticed, I talk to pretty much everybody on here, so you can quit trying to flatter yourself. If you wanna act like a troll I'm gonna call you out on it, especially considering the fact that this IS a forum primarily focused on Matt Hughes and MMA. Sure, you have the right to post wherever you like, and no I'm not a forum monitor, but it's very telling when you only troll the political threads (you used to troll the C-section too but that got old real fast).

I'm glad I bother you old man, that's the point.

J.B.
08-19-2010, 04:04 PM
You are making strawman arguments, but I'll answer anyway..

Says the king of the strawman arguments around here...

VCURamFan
08-19-2010, 04:11 PM
Hey brainless, read the post above yours. I do one topic at a time.
Hahaha, glad to see you're keeping it mature & intellectually driven around here, Buzz.

O, I know, I know: when you're attacked, you're going to defend yourself & you're not going to let some ignorant kid like me feel like he's got the upper hand.

Just realize that I made a light hearted comment (as evidenced by the ":Whistle:" & ":laugh:" smilies, in case you have trouble understand tone of voice even when I use emoticons for the express purpose of being clear), and your immediate reaction is to lash out with an insult. I didn't attack you, I wasn't mean to you & you can't even claim that there's some long-standing rivalry between us that gives you some great insight into a hidden insult in my words, because I usually avoid you completely on these forums. Matter of fact, the forums became a much happy place once I discovered the "Ignore List" option.

So if you have the time to hop off your throne of self-righteous indignation & judgement, you'll be forced to admit that (at the very least in this single instance) you're just an angry man look for targets to vent his rage on.

The best part is, I won't have to deal with whatever venom you spew my way next, because with just the click of a button, all you're posts disappear again.

Tell me, if you put all your "enemies" from these forums on your ignore list, would you have anyone left around here to talk to? :huh:

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 04:12 PM
Ok forget the religious aspect this is a slap in the face to all people who sadly were killed that day!! All the troops who have died in combat, their families left here with just memories, and also for the people who had to clean up this mess. Let's not forget the people across the world who witnessed this on tv and has shed a tear!! This just ain't right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care what anyone wants to quote on the constitution or other documents...Sometimes things are just wrong and this is WRONG!!!

Is it a slap in the face to the American Muslims that died on that day? Is it a slap in the the face to the Muslim first responders? It's not a mosque and it's not at ground zero. Should the mosques which are already around it be moved?

I witnessed it and had extended family members who worked in the towers who were lucky enough to be out of the building. I had co-workers who died on that day, yet I'm not blaming all of Islam for the acts committed by the 19 Saudi's who created the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

Remember this speech from Bush?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/attacked/transcripts/bushaddress_092001.html

Do you remember the other speech from Bush where he said we shouldn't place the blame on all of Islam for the actions of the 19? I tried to find the speech, but didn't and will have to look harder later on. Why is the blame now being put back on the shoulders of the followers of Islam?

EDIT: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2010/08/we_need_george_bush.html

Here is a page which had some info on what Bush said. Wow, I'm defending religion and Bush all in the same post. I believe a miracle just happened.

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 04:12 PM
The bottom line is this......the Muslims in favor of building that mosque know exactly what took place just 2 blocks down the street in 2001. They don't care! They are pouring salt in the wounds and they know it!

Build it somewhere else!

I disagree. How far away is far enough?

flo
08-19-2010, 04:17 PM
I'm glad I bother you old man, that's the point.

tee hee

flo
08-19-2010, 04:18 PM
I disagree. How far away is far enough?
How about Mecca?

Now you can call me an intolerant racist homophobe. :laugh:

VCURamFan
08-19-2010, 04:19 PM
I guess you couldn't comprehend it the first time I said it. Nobody has to follow you around, you only troll this section. Besides, in case you hadn't noticed, I talk to pretty much everybody on here, so you can quit trying to flatter yourself. If you wanna act like a troll I'm gonna call you out on it, especially considering the fact that this IS a forum primarily focused on Matt Hughes and MMA. Sure, you have the right to post wherever you like, and no I'm not a forum monitor, but it's very telling when you only troll the political threads (you used to troll the C-section too but that got old real fast).

I'm glad I bother you old man, that's the point.
+1 :happydancing:

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 04:22 PM
Says the king of the strawman arguments around here...

Here puppy, here puppy.

Show your work.

VCURamFan
08-19-2010, 04:23 PM
How about Mecca?

Now you can call me an intolerant racist homophobe. :laugh:
+1 :happydancing:

CAVEMAN
08-19-2010, 04:23 PM
I disagree. How far away is far enough?

Why do you think they should be allowed to build there?

And I would say not with in a 10 mile radius of ground zero would be good! Personally if it was up to me there would not be one mosque built anywhere in this country, but that is another topic for another time!

J.B.
08-19-2010, 04:30 PM
Here puppy, here puppy.

Show your work.

http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/29358/original/umad.jpg?1260037695

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 04:31 PM
Hahaha, glad to see you're keeping it mature & intellectually driven around here, Buzz.

O, I know, I know: when you're attacked, you're going to defend yourself & you're not going to let some ignorant kid like me feel like he's got the upper hand.

Just realize that I made a light hearted comment (as evidenced by the ":Whistle:" & ":laugh:" smilies, in case you have trouble understand tone of voice even when I use emoticons for the express purpose of being clear), and your immediate reaction is to lash out with an insult. I didn't attack you, I wasn't mean to you & you can't even claim that there's some long-standing rivalry between us that gives you some great insight into a hidden insult in my words, because I usually avoid you completely on these forums. Matter of fact, the forums became a much happy place once I discovered the "Ignore List" option.

So if you have the time to hop off your throne of self-righteous indignation & judgement, you'll be forced to admit that (at the very least in this single instance) you're just an angry man look for targets to vent his rage on.

The best part is, I won't have to deal with whatever venom you spew my way next, because with just the click of a button, all you're posts disappear again.

Tell me, if you put all your "enemies" from these forums on your ignore list, would you have anyone left around here to talk to? :huh:

If you weren't trolling as JB likes to call it, you would be treated with respect. Since you always act like a juvenile towards me, don't expect me to treat you with any respect.

If you aren't able to hang with the big boys, go ahead and put me on ignore. You rarely ever bring anything to the topic at hand when you respond to me. I'm used to it and expect that from you. At least JB has the balls to actually engage, unlike you. I have no one on ignore because I'm not afraid to read what folks think about me, and I'll stand up for myself knowing I hold unpopular views on many subjects.

I consider no one on her to be an enemy though I have different levels of respect for different posters.

Spiritwalker
08-19-2010, 04:33 PM
Tell me, if you put all your "enemies" from these forums on your ignore list, would you have anyone left around here to talk to? :huh:


I have to agree with this one. Tyburn and I can even have an agreement on some subjects.

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 04:33 PM
http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/29358/original/umad.jpg?1260037695

I didn't think you could and I was right.

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 04:37 PM
Why do you think they should be allowed to build there?

And I would say not with in a 10 mile radius of ground zero would be good! Personally if it was up to me there would not be one mosque built anywhere in this country, but that is another topic for another time!

I believe that the CONUS should be defended. I believe that if the land were acquired legally, they should not be denied the opportunity to build what they wish on private property due to their religion.

I'd even fight for the right to build a Christian church if the situation were reversed.

Miss Foxy
08-19-2010, 04:38 PM
Is it a slap in the face to the American Muslims that died on that day? Is it a slap in the the face to the Muslim first responders? It's not a mosque and it's not at ground zero. Should the mosques which are already around it be moved?

I witnessed it and had extended family members who worked in the towers who were lucky enough to be out of the building. I had co-workers who died on that day, yet I'm not blaming all of Islam for the acts committed by the 19 Saudi's who created the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

Remember this speech from Bush?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/attacked/transcripts/bushaddress_092001.html

Do you remember the other speech from Bush where he said we shouldn't place the blame on all of Islam for the actions of the 19? I tried to find the speech, but didn't and will have to look harder later on. Why is the blame now being put back on the shoulders of the followers of Islam?

EDIT: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2010/08/we_need_george_bush.html

Here is a page which had some info on what Bush said. Wow, I'm defending religion and Bush all in the same post. I believe a miracle just happened.

Buzz I can't stand Bush so I am not even going to read anything he has said. I am not trying to go round and round with you or anyone else on this matter. I had an outburst. I know firsthand the devastating effects this had on our country. I was married to a serviceman and did not have my husband around for a bit. After the war was on I remember my days at the Naval Medical Center seeing Marines, and Sailors with post-traumatic stress disorder, missing limbs, and their families. Hit way too close to home and I was on the opposite side of the states. This led to too many events we can never take back. I am not a racist either. I actually do have Arabic blood in me.. Whether it had been a Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindi this is wrong. :sad:

J.B.
08-19-2010, 04:39 PM
I didn't think you could and I was right.

Oh I think it delivers the goods...

You are mad, because every time you start trolling this forum I call you out on the fact that it's the only reason you come here.

VCURamFan
08-19-2010, 04:46 PM
http://bp1.blogger.com/_EmOwFaFOLU8/R-63RqSfyII/AAAAAAAAAKc/QMbOzn04WN0/s400/internet-joke.gif

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 04:54 PM
Oh I think it delivers the goods...

You are mad, because every time you start trolling this forum I call you out on the fact that it's the only reason you come here.

Like I said, you've got nothing.

You are the biggest assumption maker here. If you've got something to add which is relevant to the topic, post it.

J.B.
08-19-2010, 05:13 PM
Like I said, you've got nothing.

You are the biggest assumption maker here. If you've got something to add which is relevant to the topic, post it.

Backed in a corner again, so you try to flip the script and change the subject. Just like your "list" and you trying to say after the fact that it was some sort of elaborate joke that we all fell for. News flash, it's no assumption, it's a FACT that you troll this forum to argue with Christian/Conservatives.

I'm not saying that you NEVER post anywhere else or that every post you make is trollish, but a very high percentage falls under that category and just as much as you feel you can post wherever you like, I also feel I can call you out on it. It goes back to respect and tolerance being a two way road, you can't expect to be received very well when you come to an MMA based forum just to argue religion and politics with a large group of people who have basically the opposite views as you.

Buzzard
08-19-2010, 05:47 PM
Backed in a corner again, so you try to flip the script and change the subject. Just like your "list" and you trying to say after the fact that it was some sort of elaborate joke that we all fell for. News flash, it's no assumption, it's a FACT that you troll this forum to argue with Christian/Conservatives.

Again, you have nothing. Is the hook hole on your lip healing yet? You were caught and released, get over it. Let me enlighten you, I enjoy debating political stuff and enjoy the challenge sometimes of arguing for the opposite of what I believe. I further find it more interesting to talk with people who have differing opinions and beliefs than mine because it opens my eyes to things that I may have overlooked. There is no sense in me posting just to say I agree with someone, hence the reason I have more to say when taking an opposing viewpoint.

I'm not saying that you NEVER post anywhere else or that every post you make is trollish, but a very high percentage falls under that category and just as much as you feel you can post wherever you like, I also feel I can call you out on it. It goes back to respect and tolerance being a two way road, you can't expect to be received very well when you come to an MMA based forum just to argue religion and politics with a large group of people who have basically the opposite views as you.

You seem to be uncomfortable with my opposing viewpoints, therefor labeling me as being trollish. If I am mistaken, my apologies. Talking sports has never really been a big pastime for me, though I enjoy reading about it, mostly MMA though. I don't do football stats, baseball stats etc., and frankly, unless I am talking face to face with someone about MMA, I don't post about it much. Sit with me at a bar and I'm sure we'd have one great conversation about MMA.

If the forum didn't want politics discussed here, it wouldn't have a politics section. I've been quite respectful of the Christian folks here by not posting in the Christianity forum, though I have quite a few opinions on many of the topics there. How is holding an opposing view of others' political viewpoints disrespectful? I don't call them stupid for their positions, and try to argue the point instead of the person. There are times when I screw up and let some steam vent, but I actively try to keep those times to a minimum. Again, since I was requested to stay out of the Christianity section, I haven't and do not argue religion 99% of the time unless brought up in the Politics or Woodshed section. I can handle those who hold opposing views to mine, but get tired of your fact-less assumptions brought forth against me. There are very few on here who act as you do, and I am able to have conversations with them in a respectful manner. You seem to take being a pr*ck to a new level. If you want respect, show it but don't complain when I treat you as you have treated me. Just because I hold or argue differing points of view than you, doesn't mean I don't like you, it means I don't like or agree with your viewpoints.

If you wish to challenge my views, feel free and do so, but allow me the courtesy to also have my say in the matter.

I'm out of here for a little while. Congrats on having Phoenix chosen as the site for a WEC/UFC match. Maybe I'll fly out there for it.

CAVEMAN
08-19-2010, 07:24 PM
I believe that the CONUS should be defended. I believe that if the land were acquired legally, they should not be denied the opportunity to build what they wish on private property due to their religion.

I'd even fight for the right to build a Christian church if the situation were reversed.

So let's protect a religion whose book teaches to kill all infidels?????????

Neezar
08-20-2010, 05:05 AM
I think honestly the majority of New Yorkers don't mind because most of us live in a neighborhood that has a mosque or two in the vicinity. we shop at stores run by Muslims, and work with people (in office buildings) of the same faith. I think the families of those who died get special exception because emotionally they have a lot more invested in the site. even more than the regular american who saw the events on 9-11 on TV, and cannot forget the images of that day. Those families not only lost their sense of security (as many of us did), they lost someone they loved personally, due to the direct actions of a person that (radical or not) was Muslim.
The survivors and families of the 9-11 victims have every right to protest, but I personally don't see any harm in the mosque going up. I think that building will be inhabited not unlike the other thousands of buildings on the island of Manhattan and people will walk by it without a second notice. on the other hand I know that ground zero is one of the most heavily surveillanced areas in NYC, so honestly, if you're going to put a giant Mosque anywhere why not there. My opinion.

Mark, do you know the history of that religion in relation to building mosques at locations that they consider sacred ground?

This is to be a tropy mosque.

Spiritwalker
08-20-2010, 03:53 PM
Mark, do you know the history of that religion in relation to building mosques at locations that they consider sacred ground?

This is to be a tropy mosque.

pretty much how I feel.. even if it's not a tropy mosqueby intent.. it is in appearance.

Buzzard
08-24-2010, 03:01 PM
Interesting video. It's 17 minutes but I think most on here will like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-UDl3j8WZQ&feature=player_embedded