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Tyburn
07-21-2010, 09:40 PM
Under what conditions can the United States of America initiate Federal Martial Law :huh: and what precisely does that entail :huh:

Chris F
07-21-2010, 09:55 PM
Under what conditions can the United States of America initiate Federal Martial Law :huh: and what precisely does that entail :huh:

National emergency. I think the last time it was implemented was Katrina. However when you say the USA and not a state in paticular it get more confusing because then it take much more and I believe the l;ast time the USA did it was Abe in 1861 and he did so illegally because he ignroed the Constitution.

NateR
07-21-2010, 10:00 PM
Under what conditions can the United States of America initiate Federal Martial Law :huh: and what precisely does that entail :huh:

I don't think that the federal government has the Constitutional authority to actually initiate martial law across the entire country.

Although, there were plenty of restrictions placed on private citizens during WW2. There were mandatory curfews and firm "lights out" hours. Also, food and gas were heavily rationed. I think people were only allowed to use 1-2 gallons of gas per week. That's not even mentioning the concentration camps for Japanese-Americans.

Tyburn
07-21-2010, 10:13 PM
I don't think that the federal government has the Constitutional authority to actually initiate martial law across the entire country.

Although, there were plenty of restrictions placed on private citizens during WW2. There were mandatory curfews and firm "lights out" hours. Also, food and gas were heavily rationed. I think people were only allowed to use 1-2 gallons of gas per week. That's not even mentioning the concentration camps for Japanese-Americans.

So...let me understand...in a particular state if an emergency happens, the Federal Government can issue martial law. Who actually decides that...and who would be incharge...is it really Military...or is it just the Federal Government.


okies...supposing there was a national catastrophe that would effect the whole continent...are you saying there would be no Governance of any kind? Supposing...you have a plague or something...or supposing a Nuclear attack, GODforbid....but what sort of Emergency contingency plans does your Country have??

Do you have departments that specialize in, for example, the evacuation of major cities?...and could they still opporate if your...(well I dont know what you use) ...National Grid went down?

Tyburn
07-21-2010, 10:32 PM
I only ask...coz I've just watched a film...and it was a disastor movie.... :laugh:

NateR
07-21-2010, 11:11 PM
So...let me understand...in a particular state if an emergency happens, the Federal Government can issue martial law. Who actually decides that...and who would be incharge...is it really Military...or is it just the Federal Government.


okies...supposing there was a national catastrophe that would effect the whole continent...are you saying there would be no Governance of any kind? Supposing...you have a plague or something...or supposing a Nuclear attack, GODforbid....but what sort of Emergency contingency plans does your Country have??

Do you have departments that specialize in, for example, the evacuation of major cities?...and could they still opporate if your...(well I dont know what you use) ...National Grid went down?

Well, America is so big that it would be nearly impossible to have a natural disaster large enough to affect the entire country at once. Something big enough to do that (like an asteroid strike or a super-volcano eruption) would probably take out the entire western hemisphere, which makes any sort of "government control of the situation" moot.

I don't think we have a "national grid" since electricity is supplied locally through local companies. The biggest "mass power outage" that we could expect might be statewide, and even then it would only be one of the smaller states, since the larger states (like Texas, Montana, California, etc.) have multiple power companies supplying power to their own regions.

In a real disaster, I think it's best for the people to band together locally and figure out for themselves what they need to survive, rather than having some detached and remote federal government retaining control and enforcing arbitrary rules. Governments will try to keep themselves alive at the expense of their citizens; so it would be better for the government to die, in this kind of mass-disaster scenario, rather than allowing it to have the ultimate power of life and death over its citizens.

Tyburn
07-22-2010, 11:39 AM
Well, America is so big that it would be nearly impossible to have a natural disaster large enough to affect the entire country at once. Something big enough to do that (like an asteroid strike or a super-volcano eruption) would probably take out the entire western hemisphere, which makes any sort of "government control of the situation" moot.

I don't think we have a "national grid" since electricity is supplied locally through local companies. The biggest "mass power outage" that we could expect might be statewide, and even then it would only be one of the smaller states, since the larger states (like Texas, Montana, California, etc.) have multiple power companies supplying power to their own regions.

In a real disaster, I think it's best for the people to band together locally and figure out for themselves what they need to survive, rather than having some detached and remote federal government retaining control and enforcing arbitrary rules. Governments will try to keep themselves alive at the expense of their citizens; so it would be better for the government to die, in this kind of mass-disaster scenario, rather than allowing it to have the ultimate power of life and death over its citizens.

anything Nuclear, or cosmological could effect the entire continent...as could a plague if it was nasty and virilalent enough :ninja:

I remember Ben telling me that Highways were built as roman roads to provide a network of landing strips for the military in the event of a national emergency :) He told me that on the short journey back to Richmond train station :laugh:

Spiritwalker
07-22-2010, 11:51 AM
anything Nuclear, or cosmological could effect the entire continent...as could a plague if it was nasty and virilalent enough :ninja:

I remember Ben telling me that Highways were built as roman roads to provide a network of landing strips for the military in the event of a national emergency :) He told me that on the short journey back to Richmond train station :laugh:

I forget what movie this quote comes from.. but after I did some research when I saw the movie.. I found it to be (on face value) accurate...

"the government within the government..."


http://www.fema.gov/

Tyburn
07-22-2010, 08:20 PM
I forget what movie this quote comes from.. but after I did some research when I saw the movie.. I found it to be (on face value) accurate...

"the government within the government..."


http://www.fema.gov/

ohh, they do have an agency...well thats more reasuring :ashamed: obviously you pray they will never be needed, but its quite important to plan just incase...The good thing about your country being so vast and of differing climes is that local large scale disastors are likely to occure quite often...I'm sure you have hurricane damage each year, maybe a flood or two...that serves as a reminder that you need to plan

in the United Kingdom we rarely have national disastors...which can mean when faced with one, we find ourselves a tad out of practise. :unsure-1:

TexasRN
07-23-2010, 01:36 AM
ohh, they do have an agency...well thats more reasuring :ashamed: obviously you pray they will never be needed, but its quite important to plan just incase...The good thing about your country being so vast and of differing climes is that local large scale disastors are likely to occure quite often...I'm sure you have hurricane damage each year, maybe a flood or two...that serves as a reminder that you need to plan

in the United Kingdom we rarely have national disastors...which can mean when faced with one, we find ourselves a tad out of practise. :unsure-1:


FEMA sucks. I know first hand from Hurricane Ike which happened AFTER Katrina. They were pretty darn useless. We were without power for 12 days and water for 9. It was the third costliest hurricane in US history. Martial law was a good thing to happen. Fema was not.


~Amy

Tyburn
07-23-2010, 11:36 AM
FEMA sucks. I know first hand from Hurricane Ike which happened AFTER Katrina. They were pretty darn useless. We were without power for 12 days and water for 9. It was the third costliest hurricane in US history. Martial law was a good thing to happen. Fema was not.


~Amy

sooo...if they cant handle a single event in a single state...then the preposition is they would be ineffective in the event of a continental disastor :huh:

Spiritwalker
07-23-2010, 11:36 AM
FEMA sucks. I know first hand from Hurricane Ike which happened AFTER Katrina. They were pretty darn useless. We were without power for 12 days and water for 9. It was the third costliest hurricane in US history. Martial law was a good thing to happen. Fema was not.


~Amy

Agreed. It took FEMA weeks to "get things in order" after Katrina. Nate said it best. Band together. Look out for yourself and those around you if you can. If a real disaster were to happen in the states, the govenrment will be looking to preserve it's self first, then look at who should be responsible, then bicker about it (typical finger pointing), and then finally try to help.. all the while.. the injured, who put the people in power, still need help.

I love my country, but I do feel that our Federal government is more about Self Service first and then the people later.. State government, is almost as bad.. and the smaller the town/city.. the better it gets.

Spiritwalker
07-23-2010, 11:41 AM
sooo...if they cant handle a single event in a single state...then the preposition is they would be ineffective in the event of a continental disastor :huh:


No. The local government has to request assistance from the federal government, and from there, addditional requests are made. Then you finally get it into the hands of the right people that are empowered to provide NOT MONEY (which is actually the last thing that is needed), but people and resources.

The process is too cumbersome to be quickly effective. And in the event of a terrorist attack on a large scale, natural disaster or something online those lines.. speed is far more important than cost effectivness.

Tyburn
07-23-2010, 11:49 AM
No. The local government has to request assistance from the federal government, and from there, addditional requests are made. Then you finally get it into the hands of the right people that are empowered to provide NOT MONEY (which is actually the last thing that is needed), but people and resources.

The process is too cumbersome to be quickly effective. And in the event of a terrorist attack on a large scale, natural disaster or something online those lines.. speed is far more important than cost effectivness.

it will be too late to make a request, by the time something on the scale I'm talking about happens. :unsure-1:

TexasRN
07-23-2010, 01:26 PM
Agreed. It took FEMA weeks to "get things in order" after Katrina. Nate said it best. Band together. Look out for yourself and those around you if you can. If a real disaster were to happen in the states, the govenrment will be looking to preserve it's self first, then look at who should be responsible, then bicker about it (typical finger pointing), and then finally try to help.. all the while.. the injured, who put the people in power, still need help.

I love my country, but I do feel that our Federal government is more about Self Service first and then the people later.. State government, is almost as bad.. and the smaller the town/city.. the better it gets.

Luckily I grew up knowing how to do things like cook over fire. I had a cast iron skillet so I could even cook eggs for breakfast or cornbread using the grill. I was able to shower at the hospital when I went in to work my shifts after I finally got cut out of the house by the nieghbors. FEMA had no clue what the population there actually needed in the way of supplies so when they finally got there and got set up, they weren't helpful to any of us. Houston is a completely different type of setup than the areas Katrina hit.



~Amy

Spiritwalker
07-23-2010, 02:20 PM
Luckily I grew up knowing how to do things like cook over fire. I had a cast iron skillet so I could even cook eggs for breakfast or cornbread using the grill. I was able to shower at the hospital when I went in to work my shifts after I finally got cut out of the house by the nieghbors. FEMA had no clue what the population there actually needed in the way of supplies so when they finally got there and got set up, they weren't helpful to any of us. Houston is a completely different type of setup than the areas Katrina hit.



~Amy

When Hugo came through.. I was actually living with a freind.. we had no power for it seems like 3 weeks.. He went to his parents.. I stayed.. I had thewhole place to myself.. and it was SO QUITE..

I LOVED IT.. cooking on a grill for each meal.. I figured out how to cook over a wood flame.. "charcoal" was bought out quick. yep.. a lot of people got hurt.. but .. It was real fun just laugh at the people that couldn't seem to get by without their TVs.

Spiritwalker
07-23-2010, 02:21 PM
it will be too late to make a request, by the time something on the scale I'm talking about happens. :unsure-1:

What are you planning?

Tyburn
07-23-2010, 04:24 PM
What are you planning?

I'm not planning anything, I was just watching a disastor movie and it made me think.

I do wish your Government would spend more time in investing in its own population rather then trying to stick its nose in British Politics. I'm really very angry at part of your Government after reading todays paper. :angry:

TexasRN
07-23-2010, 04:38 PM
When Hugo came through.. I was actually living with a freind.. we had no power for it seems like 3 weeks.. He went to his parents.. I stayed.. I had thewhole place to myself.. and it was SO QUITE..

I LOVED IT.. cooking on a grill for each meal.. I figured out how to cook over a wood flame.. "charcoal" was bought out quick. yep.. a lot of people got hurt.. but .. It was real fun just laugh at the people that couldn't seem to get by without their TVs.


Yeah, luckily it happened in Sept so the weather wasn't too horrid to sleep during the day for my night shifts. I didn't go hungry or miss even one meal. The hospital allowed me to bring in empty jugs to tote water home. We survived quite well compared to a lot of others. I had a portable DVD player I could hook up to the car so I could entertain myself at night when I was off and couldn't sleep. :laugh: I could read by hurricane lamp and when the oil got low, I just went outside and built a fire in the backyard.


~Amy

Spiritwalker
07-23-2010, 07:02 PM
I'm not planning anything, I was just watching a disastor movie and it made me think.

I do wish your Government would spend more time in investing in its own population rather then trying to stick its nose in British Politics. I'm really very angry at part of your Government after reading todays paper. :angry:


When it's ok for me to let you know how angry I am at your govenrment.. without you getting offended.. just let me know.

J.B.
07-23-2010, 07:47 PM
When it's ok for me to let you know how angry I am at your govenrment.. without you getting offended.. just let me know.

I don't think they mind criticizing the government, as long as you don't talk bad about the Queen. :laugh:

J.B.
07-23-2010, 07:50 PM
I'm not planning anything, I was just watching a disastor movie and it made me think.

I do wish your Government would spend more time in investing in its own population rather then trying to stick its nose in British Politics. I'm really very angry at part of your Government after reading todays paper. :angry:

You weren't watching 2012 were you?

Because if that happens, I think the man upstairs will be only be leaving the heathens behind...:laugh:

Tyburn
07-23-2010, 08:56 PM
When it's ok for me to let you know how angry I am at your govenrment.. without you getting offended.. just let me know.

When my Government demands something from your President that is unreasonable...then you may let me know. :mellow::laugh:

Actually...go ahead...I'm unlikely to be bothered by your views about my Government, since, you are probably unaware of my own views on them. So long as you are not rude about The Queen (who isnt technically speaking part of the Government really) I am unlikely to mind. :)

Tyburn
07-23-2010, 08:58 PM
You weren't watching 2012 were you?

Because if that happens, I think the man upstairs will be only be leaving the heathens behind...:laugh:

:laugh: no....I was watching some crappy made for TV film about a comet hitting the earth and shifting the electromagnetic poles :laugh: I cant remember what it was called....but they mentioned "Federal Martial Law" which is not something I'd heard mentioned...so I thought I'd ask on here :ashamed::laugh:

Spiritwalker
07-24-2010, 02:24 AM
When my Government demands something from your President that is unreasonable...then you may let me know. :mellow::laugh:

Actually...go ahead...I'm unlikely to be bothered by your views about my Government, since, you are probably unaware of my own views on them. So long as you are not rude about The Queen (who isnt technically speaking part of the Government really) I am unlikely to mind. :)

Ah...but it's the queen... (please note the lower case "Q") that I specifically have issue with.. and the whole monarchy in general.

This is one of my favorite comedy websites of all time... http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/TheMonarchyToday.aspx

And I am unaware of your views of your government... like/dislike.. have pictures of your queen pasted to your walls... whatever...doesn't matter. it's laughable...

'The Queen is Head of State in the United Kingdom. As a constitutional monarch, Her Majesty does not 'rule' the country, but fulfils important ceremonial and formal roles with respect to Government. She is also Fount of Justice, Head of the Armed Forces and has important relationships with the established Churches of England and Scotland" (read: powerless figure head who'sfamily doesn't know when to shut up.. but long for the day when they are powerless figureheads).

I think one of the biggest jokes in the WORLD is that the Aussies still have your queen on their money.

REMY
07-24-2010, 03:13 AM
Just had a note about FEMA...when led by the right people it does work. In the beginning of Katrina it was horrible, but once Thad Allan took over as incident commander it turned around. Which many believe is the reason he was chose as Commandant of the USCG shortly after. I believe he has done a good job as National Incident Commander of the Deepwater Horizon incident as well

Tyburn
07-24-2010, 11:45 AM
1) Ah...but it's the queen... (please note the lower case "Q") that I specifically have issue with..

2) and the whole monarchy in general.

This is one of my favorite comedy websites of all time... http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/TheMonarchyToday.aspx

3) And I am unaware of your views of your government... like/dislike..

4) have pictures of your queen pasted to your walls... whatever...doesn't matter. it's laughable...

5) 'The Queen is Head of State in the United Kingdom. As a constitutional monarch, Her Majesty does not 'rule' the country, but fulfils important ceremonial and formal roles with respect to Government. She is also Fount of Justice, Head of the Armed Forces and has important relationships with the established Churches of England and Scotland" (read: powerless figure head who'sfamily doesn't know when to shut up.. but long for the day when they are powerless figureheads).

I think one of the biggest jokes in the WORLD is that the Aussies still have your queen on their money.
1) Its the Title of an Office, therefore it deserves a Capital Letter. Just like your President deserves one...regardless of how you feel about the person in the office, its the Office that commands the greater respect. Names have Capital Letters.

2) what is your particular boggle with the Monarchy?? is it as a political system of governance...because if so, you have you understand that because she is a Constitutional Monarch...she actually doesnt adhere to the Monarchic Political ideology. If you have a particular problem with this particular monarch, or house, or something, please explain. I do not know what she or her family could have done that you would find offensive. If you hatred springs from American Independance, then you should know, she isnt of the same House as those that dealt cruely with the Collonial Americans two centuries ago...and the person who actually was meanest to you, he was a very ill individual, he wasnt well, nor incontrol of his mental faculties.

3) thats probably because you never asked.

4) I dont actually own a portrait of Elizabeth, I ought to really, but I dont. We used to have her picture hanging above the main Assembly Hall in The Lincoln School of Science and Technology, where they would play the National Anthem during prize giving and important events.

5) I think what you missunderstand is her Rights and Powers. Queen Elizabeth VOLUNTARILY gives up the Legal powers she has to rule, so that Her Government can rule. She IS head of State...thats not a Technicality..She has the right to Dissolve Parliament and Rule Independantly if she so desired...you have to remember, that the Parliamentarian were the ones who restored the Monarchy...She isnt there as a token gesture...the Line was brought back because the Government cant seem to Rule without her...they tried it...and within seven years the Government was so corrupt, that a Military Dictatorship was established instead...and when that Dictator died...the Country BEGGED the Monarch who was in French Exhile to return.

She has the power to Grant Independance...OR NOT...one of the main reasons why the Austrailians still carry her Head on the Currency is because she is NOT JUST Head of State for England...she is Head of The Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is whats left of the British Empire...which at its peak owned a third of the world...We owned more then America does now.

They love her because she has sacrificed what power she could have had, to return power to the people of her realm. They recognise her and love her because she gave them their freedom, under their own Governments, with their own laws. In the last 50 years she has freed more people then all your Presidents combined...for she has returned power to a third of the whole world. They choose to have her on their currency I think as a token of thanks and respect. However...I do think that is love of a Monarch...not of Monarchy...I dont think they shall carry Charles Windsors head on their Currency when Elizabeth dies...Canada and Austrailia love Elizabeth...not especially the Office she is in.

So she is NOT powerless...she deliberatly chooses not to exercise her powers for the good of her people, at her own expense...she could be a Mighty Ruller in the political sense...and she chooses not to be. She has in effect done similar to George Washington...he was offered a throne, but he turned it down, for a Presidency which is not a dictaorship...even though they offered him the opportunity to become a Dictator...not all dictators are bad...Benign Dictatorships helpped keep the Balkans together for nearly a century. The point is, both people choose to give up power that is rightly theres, for the benefit of others...that is really noble.

Just imagine how horrible it must be for her, trapped under the weight of that crown. She is one of the least Free people in the whole Western World. Her term of office doesnt end until her death, she must either comply with the powers she ordained to rule, or she must rebel...but either way...she is trapped in a rigorous life of cyclical rituals. Have you ever thought how horrible it must be for her, to see her role be historically diminshed to the point that people, like you, who dont understand the good she has done, laugh at her, and hate on her? Do you think she is unaware of that? She truely believes that GOD has ordained her for this purpose, and her reign reflects that, even if it diminishes the power of her own crown in a political sense...she will, within the next two years become the oldest and longest reigning Soverign in our History...a History, that goes back some three to four thousand years...she stands next to her namesake, and Victoria as the most well known and most well loved Monarch

...and except for when you unlawfully invaded Grenada...she has never been hurtful or mean to the United States of America. You ought to run for a seat in your Senate...its full of men like you who are so busy looking at other countries foreign policy, they completely neglect their own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCLXIBz11zE

I'll try and find the talk that the ArchBishop gave about the work of the Monarch over the last 50 years...I think you might find that quite interesting :) She has done her best. She is the Embodiement of the Nation. She reminds us of our History. She gives us a National Identity. She is a Living Symbol of Four Thousand Years of Traditions, and Values. She is a National Treasure, and she has the rare Quality of not just being a Monarch...but actually being a really GOOD Monarch...she actually cares about her Subjects. Her Value system is very much based on the Freedom of her Subjects, she would have gotten on well with George Washington because the two think along very similar lines about how to run a country...on a Government holding power, rather then a person, of the person who rules being restrained by the Government.

Perhaps if you explain more about what exactly it is you find offensive I will be able to help you see the truth of the matter :)

Spiritwalker
07-24-2010, 07:15 PM
1) Its the Title of an Office, therefore it deserves a Capital Letter. Just like your President deserves one...regardless of how you feel about the person in the office, its the Office that commands the greater respect. Names have Capital Letters.

The people elect the president.. right or wrong decision.. it's the people that make the choice.

2) what is your particular boggle with the Monarchy?? is it as a political system of governance...because if so, you have you understand that because she is a Constitutional Monarch...she actually doesnt adhere to the Monarchic Political ideology.

Bingo. Kind of like an unloaded gun. Not much good.

If you have a particular problem with this particular monarch, or house, or something, please explain. I do not know what she or her family could have done that you would find offensive.

nope.. other than how they (for the most part) don't drown every time it rains.

If you hatred springs from American Independance, then you should know, she isnt of the same House as those that dealt cruely with the Collonial Americans two centuries ago...and the person who actually was meanest to you, he was a very ill individual, he wasnt well, nor incontrol of his mental faculties.

I actually "hate" very little... The independence of America was a forgone conclusion in my opinion. Too far away to actually govern effectively. But I do like the way you defended Georgy the 3rd. And me disliking your system for what went on, heading towards 300 years ago, would be pretty silly.

3) thats probably because you never asked.

Because even the most simple question that is posed to you gets 100s of words.. and video blogs, and soo much more.. I tend to find that annoying.. so I don't ask. I asked "what are you planing" just to be funny...

4) I dont actually own a portrait of Elizabeth, I ought to really, but I dont. We used to have her picture hanging above the main Assembly Hall in The Lincoln School of Science and Technology, where they would play the National Anthem during prize giving and important events.

ok.

5) I think what you missunderstand is her Rights and Powers. Queen Elizabeth VOLUNTARILY gives up the Legal powers she has to rule, so that Her Government can rule.

so she is powerless..

She IS head of State...thats not a Technicality..She has the right to Dissolve Parliament and Rule Independantly if she so desired...

It would be funny to see if that could ever happen.

you have to remember, that the Parliamentarian were the ones who restored the Monarchy...She isnt there as a token gesture...the Line was brought back because the Government cant seem to Rule without her...they tried it...and within seven years the Government was so corrupt, that a Military Dictatorship was established instead...and when that Dictator died...the Country BEGGED the Monarch who was in French Exhile to return.

The government of the people, by the people and for the people. When the government fails to govern, it should be removed. Don't worry, I think that the states are heading that way also.

Your royals serve no purpose with the exception of serving themselves. Your parliament needs to listen to the people.


She has the power to Grant Independance...OR NOT...one of the main reasons why the Austrailians still carry her Head on the Currency is because she is NOT JUST Head of State for England...she is Head of The Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is whats left of the British Empire...which at its peak owned a third of the world...

I personally think that they should govern themselves.


We owned more then America does now.

And where are you now?


They love her because she has sacrificed what power she could have had, to return power to the people of her realm. They recognise her and love her because she gave them their freedom, under their own Governments, with their own laws.

Ah.. but it should not be her realm.. At least in my opinion.


In the last 50 years she has freed more people then all your Presidents combined...for she has returned power to a third of the whole world.
ahhh...huh??

They choose to have her on their currency I think as a token of thanks and respect. However...I do think that is love of a Monarch...not of Monarchy...I dont think they shall carry Charles Windsors head on their Currency when Elizabeth dies...Canada and Austrailia love Elizabeth...not especially the Office she is in.[QUOTE]

Not on their money.. His head would probably be carried on a plate should he try to exercise any power. At least I would HOPE that would happen.

[QUOTE]So she is NOT powerless...she deliberatly chooses not to exercise her powers for the good of her people, at her own expense...she could be a Mighty Ruller in the political sense...and she chooses not to be. She has in effect done similar to George Washington...he was offered a throne, but he turned it down, for a Presidency which is not a dictaorship...even though they offered him the opportunity to become a Dictator...not all dictators are bad...Benign Dictatorships helpped keep the Balkans together for nearly a century. The point is, both people choose to give up power that is rightly theres, for the benefit of others...that is really noble.

Washington became a president.. once that happened.. there was never a chance for America to have a dictator. According to you... the queen could still become the dictator of the past.

Just imagine how horrible it must be for her, trapped under the weight of that crown. She is one of the least Free people in the whole Western World. Her term of office doesnt end until her death, she must either comply with the powers she ordained to rule, or she must rebel...but either way...she is trapped in a rigorous life of cyclical rituals. Have you ever thought how horrible it must be for her, to see her role be historically diminshed to the point that people, like you, who dont understand the good she has done, laugh at her, and hate on her? Do you think she is unaware of that? She truely believes that GOD has ordained her for this purpose, and her reign reflects that, even if it diminishes the power of her own crown in a political sense...she will, within the next two years become the oldest and longest reigning Soverign in our History...a History, that goes back some three to four thousand years...she stands next to her namesake, and Victoria as the most well known and most well loved Monarch

lolol...

...and except for when you unlawfully invaded Grenada...she has never been hurtful or mean to the United States of America. You ought to run for a seat in your Senate...its full of men like you who are so busy looking at other countries foreign policy, they completely neglect their own.


If I remember correctly. Grenada was done at the request of Prime Minister of Dominica though I don't remember the specifics.. I will look into it later..

I would never be elected to senate. I would be busy trying to turn America into a nation of producers instead of consumers. I would have real work fare instead of welfare.... I would try to turn America back into an boarder line isolationist country again (which probably wouldn't be the best idea).

More to come later...

.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCLXIBz11zE.[QUOTE]

No thanks.

[QUOTE]I'll try and find the talk that the ArchBishop gave about the work of the Monarch over the last 50 years...I think you might find that quite interesting :) She has done her best. She is the Embodiement of the Nation. She reminds us of our History. She gives us a National Identity. She is a Living Symbol of Four Thousand Years of Traditions, and Values. She is a National Treasure, and she has the rare Quality of not just being a Monarch...but actually being a really GOOD Monarch...she actually cares about her Subjects. Her Value system is very much based on the Freedom of her Subjects, she would have gotten on well with George Washington because the two think along very similar lines about how to run a country...on a Government holding power, rather then a person, of the person who rules being restrained by the Government.

Perhaps if you explain more about what exactly it is you find offensive I will be able to help you see the truth of the matter :)

Tyburn
07-24-2010, 07:58 PM
The people elect the president.. right or wrong decision.. it's the people that make the choice.

Not Technically true, especially not with your collegic system of voting for someone who will then vote for you. Not to mention proportional representation. I wasnt born Yesterday

Bingo. Kind of like an unloaded gun. Not much good.

Better to have an unloaded gun which can be loaded if you need it, then no Gun at all. Besides, Her other, non political roles are quite important

nope.. other than how they (for the most part) don't drown every time it rains.

Listen, I dont mind discussing with you if you have a serious point, but if your just going to try and wind me up for the sake of it, then It's pointless talking to you.


I actually "hate" very little... The independence of America was a forgone conclusion in my opinion. Too far away to actually govern effectively. But I do like the way you defended Georgy the 3rd. And me disliking your system for what went on, heading towards 300 years ago, would be pretty silly.

Heading on 300 years??? You havent reached 250 yet :laugh: George was mad...have you never heard about "The madness of King George" and it was not to far away to govern...it was one of our closest collonies in terms of distance...many were in Africa, Asia, or the south pacific. Do you find Hawaii hard to govern?? or Guam?? Most independance is a forgone conclusion, but sometimes it does take centuries.

Because even the most simple question that is posed to you gets 100s of words.. and video blogs, and soo much more.. I tend to find that annoying.. so I don't ask. I asked "what are you planing" just to be funny...

Try not "to be funny" your pretty crap at it


so she is powerless..

No, she could pick up her powers at any time. Your gun analogy was a little off. Shes more like a loaded gun still in a holster...it can be drawn and used at any time...or it can be left...either way it can be used. Its not powerless because its not in use. Thats absurd. Its powerful, its simply not displaying its power.

It would be funny to see if that could ever happen.

No it wouldnt, there would probably be a civil war, between English Royalists, and idiots like yourself born in England. It very nearly did happen several times, she did step in over your invasion of Grenada, we thought she was going to step in over the decision to go to war over Iraq, she considered dissolving the house during the expenses scandle...and if this coillition fails, she will dissolve the house and call for an imediate General Ellection...like people were worried she would do at the mere thought of a "hung" parliament.

The government of the people, by the people and for the people. When the government fails to govern, it should be removed. Don't worry, I think that the states are heading that way also.

A Government of the people?? What sort of Government forces an unwanted Health Reform on its own populas? By the people? yeah, by playing the race card to a load of gullible Americans, you were tricked! For the people?? Your Government is more obsessed about chasing Companies, and other Countries foreign policies...and by the way...Did the South get the same pay out that Palestine got recently??

Your Government isnt even there to Govern...thats categorically NOT what America has a Government for, because each citizen is designed to be self Governing...the "government" is just a needed evil, there only because it has to be for coordination purpose. The United States Government is supposed to do what the Citizens say, when they say it...not provide for them, not look after them and certainly not govern...infact, Americans take a real dislike to the Government interfereing with their existance.

At least our Government isnt pretending to be a Republic, when its really an Ellected Dictatorship, ours pretty much admits what it is...we know what we are getting

Your royals serve no purpose with the exception of serving themselves. Your parliament needs to listen to the people.


Our Parliament wont listen to themselves let alone the people! we get our say when we ellect them, after that, the best we can do is lobby them, or berate and embariss them in the press and media. Our Royals have many functions, just not many political functions anymore. They dont sit around doing nothing you know.

I personally think that they should govern themselves.

In Reality they do...its called a Devolved Government...its pretty much like the difference between your State and Federal Government...except the links are much weaker, and the Federal Government almost never interacts. She COULD, but she WONT...thats what makes her Great...thats why they love her.

And where are you now?

Harrassed by our own spoilt children. But you forget, the British have seen hights and lows before...because we have a legacy. Your like some Junior Fighter in TUF...that wins a Finale, and thinks they can call out a Seasoned Veteran yoyoing in and out of retirement.

Ah.. but it should not be her realm.. At least in my opinion.

Why should it not be her Realm? you have Realms, by "annexing" which is basically conquring...its how your States developed...When the British left they owned Thirteen States...do you think the other forty odd just appeared out of thin air?? Effectively, the Thirteen United States have a Realm...and indeed...Guam has never progressed beyond being a Territory...Hawaii, was only made a State...what...during the Reign of Elizabeth.

What makes Elizabeths Realm unpalletable to you...and not your own?



Not on their money.. His head would probably be carried on a plate should he try to exercise any power. At least I would HOPE that would happen.

It will be interesting to see what happens there. Charles is a very different kettle of fish...Its funny...because I think the Commonwealth WOULD put Williams head on their currency...but I suspect if Charles Succeeds after Elizabeth...things might not run so smoothly. In England people dont like him because of what he did to Princess Diana

Washington became a president.. once that happened.. there was never a chance for America to have a dictator. According to you... the queen could still become the dictator of the past.

Washington was offered the chance to be a Dictator, he turned it down, luckily for him he only needed to do that once. Elizabeth was a dictator from birth...so every single day she basically lays aside her dictatorial heratage for the sake of a nation.



If I remember correctly. Grenada was done at the request of Prime Minister of Dominica though I don't remember the specifics.. I will look into it later..

It doesnt matter who requested it. Grenada, it was feared by the Americans would become communist I believe. They didnt want another Cuba...but they trod on the wrong toes, and they hastily retreated when Elizabeth got involved and expressed her most sincere dissaproval.

I would never be elected to senate. I would be busy trying to turn America into a nation of producers instead of consumers. I would have real work fare instead of welfare.... I would try to turn America back into an boarder line isolationist country again (which probably wouldn't be the best idea).

Your already acting like a Senator, telling us what you would and would not do, its called making promises you cant hope to keep. Meanwhile your true political colours are obvious. by your constant attacks on me. Is it just because I threaten you, or is it because I'm an authority figure on hear and you dont like it...I dont know...but you go out of your way to make it crystal clear that you dissagree with me on every subject under the sun, and that I should be shunned and ignored as some kind of annoyance. We should call you "Senator S Walker" from this point on. Just dont expect a Sir...you cant be that unless you are knighted, and you cant be knighted without a Monarch to induct you into it...and your nation doesnt have one.
.

I can hardly wait for more :rolleyes:

REMY
07-24-2010, 09:43 PM
My opinion on your guys' little....tit tat -...i'm not a man of many words, as in i get to the point quickly most of the time -

At one time in this world Kings and Queens were indeed needed....in 2010 they are pointless and powerless... Dave what i think Spirit is getting at...and how i feel as well is -

you say the Queen can dissolve the British government at any time she wishes and take command of all of her powers again. I think that would/could never happen, technically could she say "hey guys, you're doing a bad job...sooo yea i'm gonna take over again" yea sure...would it matter? I don't think it would, i think if she said that everyone would kinda go "uhh ok...anyways back to business" the parliment would have to be filled with people who she is close to and who would back her and who's people would back her for that too happen. "A King or Queen with supreme power without powerful supporters is just a beheading waiting to happen"

Tyburn
07-24-2010, 10:07 PM
My opinion on your guys' little....tit tat -...i'm not a man of many words, as in i get to the point quickly most of the time -

1) At one time in this world Kings and Queens were indeed needed....in 2010 they are pointless and powerless... Dave what i think Spirit is getting at...and how i feel as well is -

2) you say the Queen can dissolve the British government at any time she wishes and take command of all of her powers again. I think that would/could never happen, technically could she say "hey guys, you're doing a bad job...sooo yea i'm gonna take over again" yea sure...would it matter? I don't think it would, i think if she said that everyone would kinda go "uhh ok...anyways back to business" the parliment would have to be filled with people who she is close to and who would back her and who's people would back her for that too happen. "A King or Queen with supreme power without powerful supporters is just a beheading waiting to happen"

1) Does your country need its flag? Does your flag serve any purpose? I dont think you understand what Queen Elizabeth represents...she represents Four to Five Thousand years of History. She is a living Tradition, She remains constant as the country about her changes.

Queen Elizabeth is to England, what your Constitution and Flag are to America.

2) not the case. The public is more angry and hates the Government more now then ever...since the winter of discontent and Maggie Thatcher, the people have generally had a low opinion of the Government. Many people are sick of the Government messing up the country both at home and abroad. You only need to see the Unions to understand...the Unions are backers of Government in a financial sense...thats bad when they stand up to the Government via industrial strikes. The Government has failed over the Judicial System, its failed in Education, its failed in Benefits, its failed in ministers expenses, its failed with the war in Iraq and the war in afghanistan, its failed in Europe, its used by the Americans, it still allows the bankers their big bonuses...people are getting to the stage where...really the Government is more likely to collapse then the Monarchy...because if Elizabeth acted in a moral way against a corrupt and disliked Government...you might be suprised how many people take her side...even if they arent specifically Royalists...almost everyone thinks British Politics and the Government suck...except those in Westminster and Whitehall...wheras The Queen is held in high regard.

America does not understand one major thing which keeps England going...its the power of public opinion. Not in some stupid statistical poll...but in terms of media coverage, and press time... Going public shines the light on the sordid darkness...particularly if it comes from a high up respectable source

Would there be a Civil War...I dont know the Government is capable of actually being successful in a home campaign...because I am not sure where the Loyalties of the Military actually lie....Our Military leaders dont get fired for speaking the truth...and they occasionally do...catch them at the right time, after a spending cut that for example proposes merging the Paratroopers and the Royal Marines...an extremely unpopular idea...and...it...might just work.

Spiritwalker
07-25-2010, 01:40 PM
I can hardly wait for more :rolleyes:


[/B]Not Technically true, especially not with your collegic system of voting for someone who will then vote for you. Not to mention proportional representation. I wasnt born Yesterday

Our system may no longer be "one person, one vote" like it should be, but it's better than right of birth.


Better to have an unloaded gun which can be loaded if you need it, then no Gun at all. Besides, Her other, non political roles are quite important

heheheheh... that's a PERFECT analogy. Bringing an unloaded gun to a fight.


Listen, I dont mind discussing with you if you have a serious point, but if your just going to try and wind me up for the sake of it, then It's pointless talking to you.

Winding you up? for making mention that your "royals" are detached individuals they have no connection with the "commoners"? Just a tad sensetive are you? You think I should just let you bash my country and not have a retort?


Heading on 300 years??? You havent reached 250 yet George was mad...have you never heard about "The madness of King George" and it was not to far away to govern...it was one of our closest collonies in terms of distance...many were in Africa, Asia, or the south pacific. Do you find Hawaii hard to govern?? or Guam?? Most independance is a forgone conclusion, but sometimes it does take centuries.

3 points to this:
1- Heading on - A general phrase.. similiar to "around".. We Amercia declared independance in 1776.. you think it just "happened" in that year? I think it was 1773 that most coloniest had their own rough constitution. So while it is a fact that 7/4/76 was the date of the declaration.. you can easily say that the Gaspee Affair in '72 and The Boston Tea Party, in '74, started us down that road. And many others that I didn't research in high school.
2- Heard of King George many times.. read many articles and such.. but I have never heard him defended. I mean modern Germany doesn't defend Hitler. (yep I went there for the fun of it)
3- You compare Guam to the colonies?? Guam is much smaller and has FAR less of a population than the colonies. At least after the first few years. And how long did it take the colonies to break?



Try not "to be funny" your pretty crap at it

yeah.. well.. some people didn't think Brokeback Mountain was a comedy either.



No, she could pick up her powers at any time. Your gun analogy was a little off. Shes more like a loaded gun still in a holster...it can be drawn and used at any time...or it can be left...either way it can be used. Its not powerless because its not in use. Thats absurd. Its powerful, its simply not displaying its power.

It would be funny to see if that could ever happen.

No it wouldnt, there would probably be a civil war, between English Royalists, and idiots like yourself born in England. It very nearly did happen several times, she did step in over your invasion of Grenada, we thought she was going to step in over the decision to go to war over Iraq, she considered dissolving the house during the expenses scandle...and if this coillition fails, she will dissolve the house and call for an imediate General Ellection...like people were worried she would do at the mere thought of a "hung" parliament.


There you go with those personal attacks again.. just let me know when I can start attacking you personally.

It's a good think she didn't step in..


A Government of the people?? What sort of Government forces an unwanted Health Reform on its own populas? By the people? yeah, by playing the race card to a load of gullible Americans, you were tricked! For the people??

And that is our problem.. but the people did it. The majority of the people did it. Good or Bad.. that's what we chose. Again.. that's better than having a leader by right of "divine birth".


Your Government is more obsessed about chasing Companies, and other Countries foreign policies...and by the way...Did the South get the same pay out that Palestine got recently??

Probably...

Your Government isnt even there to Govern...thats categorically NOT what America has a Government for, because each citizen is designed to be self Governing...the "government" is just a needed evil, there only because it has to be for coordination purpose. The United States Government is supposed to do what the Citizens say, when they say it...not provide for them, not look after them and certainly not govern...infact, Americans take a real dislike to the Government interfereing with their existance.

Yep. And we take a real dislike to individual in other countries insulting us.


At least our Government isnt pretending to be a Republic, when its really an Ellected Dictatorship, ours pretty much admits what it is...we know what we are getting

ok.. if you say.


Our Parliament wont listen to themselves let alone the people! we get our say when we ellect them, after that, the best we can do is lobby them, or berate and embariss them in the press and media. Our Royals have many functions, just not many political functions anymore. They dont sit around doing nothing you know.

Then you should get new members of parliment.. oh wait...


It doesnt matter who requested it. Grenada, it was feared by the Americans would become communist I believe. They didnt want another Cuba...but they trod on the wrong toes, and they hastily retreated when Elizabeth got involved and expressed her most sincere dissaproval.

LOLOLOLOLOOL.. yeah.. sure..



Your already acting like a Senator, telling us what you would and would not do, its called making promises you cant hope to keep. Meanwhile your true political colours are obvious. by your constant attacks on me.

I haven't attacked you.. I am not running for a senate seat.. just telling you what I would do if I had power to do it. Again.. I haven't attacked you at all. But please do let me know when I can.

Is it just because I threaten you, or is it because I'm an authority figure on hear and you dont like it...

I am so not threatened by you. You "figure" wrong.

I dont know...but you go out of your way to make it crystal clear that you dissagree with me on every subject under the sun, and that I should be shunned and ignored as some kind of annoyance.

No. There is actually a great deal I do agree with you on. But you seem to have no problem complaining about America.. and your history of bashing (either with a obvious or backhanded insult).. is well known. I just take issue with it. And when I take issues, you claim I am attacking you.


We should call you "Senator S Walker" from this point on. Just dont expect a Sir...you cant be that unless you are knighted, and you cant be knighted without a Monarch to induct you into it...and your nation doesnt have one.

Don't want it.. Don't Need it... and I don't really want to be in the same company as some of the most recent Knights.. And I get called "sir" at work.. not that it's required.. I get called "Sensei" at the dojo.. and "Dad" at home.. what more could I want?

And besides.. I have my Certificate of Birth in the United States of America..:happydancing: (and the president can't even seem to say that truthfully)
MUCH better than a Knighthood... IMO

Tyburn
07-25-2010, 04:27 PM
:happydancing: More :happydancing: I have actually got things I need to do...but I just cant not reply :laugh:

Our system may no longer be "one person, one vote" like it should be, but it's better than right of birth. "better" in what way? that word implies a moral backing, more right. You realize that the Temporal Realm is not run by a Democratic Republic dont you? The moral argument doesnt work, because Ultimately the most Important being in the Universe is a Monarch, and he runs both realms as a Dictator. What you probably mean is a more Just system, which means ballenced, where Ballence (in terms of being fair) is classed as the moral better because of the Utilitarian Principle that the moral right is what brings the majority the most happiness...summed up aptly by Star Treks Leonard Nimoy as Spock "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" The problem is, Deomcracy whilst being the best way...is still only the best of the bad bunch...actually what usually happens is an Ellected Dictator with a ticking clock on his reign...better...but only just...and that depends on the character of the Dictator. 50 Years of Elizabeth Windsor has proven to be better for the world then Four Years of Barack Obama. See politicians lie...they say what they say to be ellected, because once ellected they can do whatever they like, knowing they will step down and cant in all seriousness be called to true account. Its much harder for a Monarch to step down, and there is only so long a ruthless Tyrant can exist before a beheading...so its best for her to rule wisely...or not to rule at all. Whereas Prime Ministers and Presidents technically have the best of both rules, and the excuse that they were ellected.

heheheheh... that's a PERFECT analogy. Bringing an unloaded gun to a fight.

Better then bringing a knife I suppose :unsure-1::laugh: I dont know, I dont use firearms...I dont know how difficult they are to load do I :laugh:

Winding you up? for making mention that your "royals" are detached individuals they have no connection with the "commoners"? Just a tad sensetive are you? You think I should just let you bash my country and not have a retort?

but you didnt say that. You said they dont drown every time it rains.


3 points to this:
1- Heading on - A general phrase.. similiar to "around".. We Amercia declared independance in 1776.. you think it just "happened" in that year? I think it was 1773 that most coloniest had their own rough constitution. So while it is a fact that 7/4/76 was the date of the declaration.. you can easily say that the Gaspee Affair in '72 and The Boston Tea Party, in '74, started us down that road. And many others that I didn't research in high school.
Independance isnt declaired, its granted. I believe that American Independance was Granted by King George around 1783 at a Treaty of Paris. I would point you to a facebook blog I made outlining the different days of dating american independance, but heaven forbid I give you a link, I know you are short of patience in that respect :laugh:
2- Heard of King George many times.. read many articles and such.. but I have never heard him defended. I mean modern Germany doesn't defend Hitler. (yep I went there for the fun of it) This particular King George was considered as clinically insane, wasnt it shakespeare that wrote a play called the madness of King George? I forget..others say he had Porphyrea. You will note a line of the Declairation of Independance supports this theory. One of the Charges against the King was that he wouldnt visit America, he wouldnt travel. He demanded the Americans travel to Him. They presume for the sole purpose of upsetting them, exhausting them, making them uncomfortable and thus more likely to aggree with him to get it over with. Now Porphyrea...and other monarchs have been thought to have this disease too, would make travel impossible, because the skin burns on contact with the sun. He would be practically stuck, and may wish to be seen as little as possible. I dont know, because I have never bothered to really investigate it, King George just doesnt excite me, I think he was nuts...the American response is far more exciting. You know (forgive me if I bore you, its supposedly British to try and wear out your adversary, according to George Washington at any rate, BUT) when I visited the United States, I was able to buy myself a papyrus copy of the Declairation of Independance, rolled into a Scroll, I have it on my mantle piece. I remember I turned up at the Washington Monument, it had rained, like a cloud burst, and I was soaking, and when I arrived at the base, there was just me and this man. I think he worked at the monument, taking people up and down to the observation deck. Anyway we got talking brefly he asked me how I was, I said I was fine, he asked if I was British, I said I was from England (common mistake) and then I whipped out the scroll and presented it to him and said "erm, is it too late to ask for our thirteen collonies back, I would have come sooner, but the traffic was terrible"

He just laughed :)
3- You compare Guam to the colonies?? Guam is much smaller and has FAR less of a population than the colonies. At least after the first few years. And how long did it take the colonies to break?
To the best of my knowledge Wyoming, still hasnt enough population numbers to qualify as a State...its one of those bizzare historical things. it was excepted even though it failed to meet all the criteria. I cant recall off hand how long it took, but not long historically for them to break.


yeah.. well.. some people didn't think Brokeback Mountain was a comedy either.

I have never watched it. So I wouldnt know


It would be funny to see if that could ever happen.

Elizabeth almost certainly never will. For a Start she is a late Octogenarian, Secondly, its not in her character, as I explained before. Now, her Son might do it. Her Grandchildren probably wouldnt...but its quite hard for a Male in that role to lay aside their power for the good of others. It would not be "funny" either way...but it would be highly interesting


And that is our problem.. but the people did it. The majority of the people did it. Good or Bad.. that's what we chose. Again.. that's better than having a leader by right of "divine birth". Not always, Different, and sometimes better, in this case, not so. Elizabeth would be a better ruller then Obama...but there might be other Ellected leaders who would be better then her I suppose. I think Maggie Thatcher was awesome :laugh:



Yep. And we take a real dislike to individual in other countries insulting us.

I'm just repeating what all the other Republicans have told me on this board when they hear my views on Government, that is what they say. I'm sorry you dont aggree with them, but on this board, they are in the majority, Good or bad, thats what they have chosen. If you dont believe me you ask Nathan Rosario whether he thinks the Government should look after him, provide for him, and govern over him, or whether he feels they are a required evil, and should do what the people instruct. Ask Him...hear it from an American if you must

Then you should get new members of parliment.. oh wait...

She should have pulled an Cromwell during the Expenses Scandle. I think she should have dissolved the Parliament, just like Oliver did, for the EXACT SAME REASONS. They were unfit to govern due to sincere corruption IMHO, further more on top of paying the money back, those over a reasonable threshold should have been criminally charged with Fraud.


I haven't attacked you.. I am not running for a senate seat.. just telling you what I would do if I had power to do it. Again.. I haven't attacked you at all. But please do let me know when I can.

You never stop attacking me

I am so not threatened by you. You "figure" wrong.

Either that or to Verbal Spar with Tyburn is some sort of Forum Rite of Passage that makes you a Real Man on this board :laugh::rolleyes:

oh Puh-lease

No. There is actually a great deal I do agree with you on. But you seem to have no problem complaining about America.. and your history of bashing (either with a obvious or backhanded insult).. is well known. I just take issue with it. And when I take issues, you claim I am attacking you.

I almost never bash anyone or anything. I criticise things and people a lot, but there is a difference between mindless hatred, and calculated expressions of constructive criticism. If you cant tell the difference, that is your problem and not mine.

Don't want it.. Don't Need it... and I don't really want to be in the same company as some of the most recent Knights.. And I get called "sir" at work.. not that it's required.. I get called "Sensei" at the dojo.. and "Dad" at home.. what more could I want?

And besides.. I have my Certificate of Birth in the United States of America..:happydancing: (and the president can't even seem to say that truthfully)
MUCH better than a Knighthood... IMO

whatever :laugh:

Neezar
07-25-2010, 05:40 PM
Man! I hate that I don't have enough time to read all of this.

Tyburn
07-25-2010, 05:57 PM
Man! I hate that I don't have enough time to read all of this.

I hate that you dont have time to join in :laugh:

Spiritwalker
07-25-2010, 08:38 PM
but you didnt say that. You said they dont drown every time it rains.

What I actually said was.. "nope.. other than how they (for the most part) don't drown every time it rains."... Which is what I am amazed at.

Independance isnt declaired, its granted. I believe that American Independance was Granted by King George around 1783 at a Treaty of Paris.

Wrong. It's declared. The colonies said "BITE ME" to King George. We fought.. and "lord" Cornwallace ended up surrendering to those "upstart colonies".. sure we had help from the French... but it still happened. Nothing was granted.. they "took it".. blood sweat and tears....

I would point you to a facebook blog I made outlining the different days of dating american independance, but heaven forbid I give you a link, I know you are short of patience in that respect

Because you take 2500 words to say what takes 500.. IF that. perfect example is seen below.

This particular King George was considered as clinically insane, wasnt it shakespeare that wrote a play called the madness of King George? I forget..others say he had Porphyrea. You will note a line of the Declairation of Independance supports this theory. One of the Charges against the King was that he wouldnt visit America, he wouldnt travel. He demanded the Americans travel to Him. They presume for the sole purpose of upsetting them, exhausting them, making them uncomfortable and thus more likely to aggree with him to get it over with. Now Porphyrea...and other monarchs have been thought to have this disease too, would make travel impossible, because the skin burns on contact with the sun. He would be practically stuck, and may wish to be seen as little as possible. I dont know, because I have never bothered to really investigate it, King George just doesnt excite me, I think he was nuts...the American response is far more exciting. You know (forgive me if I bore you, its supposedly British to try and wear out your adversary, according to George Washington at any rate, BUT) when I visited the United States, I was able to buy myself a papyrus copy of the Declairation of Independance, rolled into a Scroll, I have it on my mantle piece. I remember I turned up at the Washington Monument, it had rained, like a cloud burst, and I was soaking, and when I arrived at the base, there was just me and this man. I think he worked at the monument, taking people up and down to the observation deck. Anyway we got talking brefly he asked me how I was, I said I was fine, he asked if I was British, I said I was from England (common mistake) and then I whipped out the scroll and presented it to him and said "erm, is it too late to ask for our thirteen collonies back, I would have come sooner, but the traffic was terrible"

He just laughed


To the best of my knowledge Wyoming, still hasnt enough population numbers to qualify as a State...its one of those bizzare historical things. it was excepted even though it failed to meet all the criteria. I cant recall off hand how long it took, but not long historically for them to break.

errrrrrrrrrmmmm.... huh???


I have never watched it. So I wouldnt know

For some reason.. I am surprised by that.


It would be funny to see if that could ever happen.

I'm just repeating what all the other Republicans have told me on this board when they hear my views on Government, that is what they say.

So..your just repeating what others tell you now??? No thoughts of your own??

I'm sorry you dont aggree with them, but on this board, they are in the majority, Good or bad, thats what they have chosen.

And that makes my voice no less important.

If you dont believe me you ask Nathan Rosario whether he thinks the Government should look after him, provide for him, and govern over him, or whether he feels they are a required evil, and should do what the people instruct. Ask Him...hear it from an American if you must

I have a few ideas as to what Nate thinks.. why drag him into this?


You never stop attacking me

Never attacked you in this thread or many others. Yet you have called me stupid and others..


Either that or to Verbal Spar with Tyburn is some sort of Forum Rite of Passage that makes you a Real Man on this board

No I am just one of the few mental idiots, that call you to tasks for insulting what I hold dear.

Tyburn
07-25-2010, 09:51 PM
Wrong. It's declared. The colonies said "BITE ME" to King George. We fought.. and "lord" Cornwallace ended up surrendering to those "upstart colonies".. sure we had help from the French... but it still happened. Nothing was granted.. they "took it".. blood sweat and tears....

Just because you declaire something, doesnt make it happen. Yes you drove the English into the sea...so did the Germans at Dunkirk...but we still won the war. England could have waited and then launched an Armada, and arrived back on your coastline within a year or so. But they didnt. Instead George...and I presume...erm George, actually signed the end of the Revolutionary war as a Treaty. You declairation started the war of Independance, it didnt finish, or win the war. That happened after the war...and the war didnt end with the British Surrender on the shore...it ended in France. Like I say...it depends on your perspective...some say it happened the moment one of the Earlier King George allowed the Thirteen Collonies a Provisional Government...called Continental Congress...which had a different President each year I think. for a decade or so...that would put first home rule 1m the early 1760s I think.

Because you take 2500 words to say what takes 500.. IF that. perfect example is seen below.

I might waffle on the odd occasion, but you are just plain bad mannered. You are a most dissagreeable Man.


errrrrrrrrrmmmm.... huh???

States need to have a certain population density to join the Union, its one of the requirement of the Federal Government. Wyoming didnt make that total, but somehow they were still excepted into the Union. Its one of those bizzare little American Factoids I've picked up...Wyoming is still strange, Amtrack doesnt supply the State...GOD knows how one should travel through that State if they wished to visit.

For some reason.. I am surprised by that.

Well Im not a Heath Ledger fan to be honnest...I dont even recall who the other bloke was. Gone are the days when I get to watch all the films I want. I get to watch them if they appear on TV...but I've not seen it on any Channel I have. I cant find it on my stupidly limited and over priced On Demand selection...and I can only see one film per month at the Cinema...its all my budgit allows for. Guess I wanted to see something else that month instead.

You think because it involves homosexuality i'd want to see it??? Why...what will the film show me I havent already seen for myself in the flesh, in my very shameful past?


So..your just repeating what others tell you now??? No thoughts of your own??

On this occasion I am just telling you what the Americans I know, like and trust, tell me is the American Paradigmn on Government, yes. Its not my own. My own is far more like yours by the sounds of it. I believe a Government should govern, protect and provide for its people. But that is a Eurovision of Government...its not Asian, nor American.

And that makes my voice no less important.

You are in the minority. Did those who voted for Senator John McCain see their voice given as much importance as those who voted for Barack Obama??

Or are you asking personally? If I dont like someone, I tend to find their opinions are not as important as those I like and Respect,thats just how I work. Everyone has an opinion, so thats how I decide whose opinion matters and who I think is right, by consultation with those I like, or Trust, or Respect...they are not the same...but someone I dont like or have no time for, their views and opinions are unimportant to me.

I have a few ideas as to what Nate thinks.. why drag him into this?

Because you didnt want to hear it from an English person, so I refered you to the American who taught me. That would make it more palletable to you, because then you wouldnt be insulted by a foreign individual like myself...but you would hear the same sort of ideology.

Never attacked you in this thread or many others. Yet you have called me stupid and others..

You constantly attack me. You are constantly mean to me. You dont discuss with me, you try to embarris and humiliate me. You try to bring up my weak areas to close me down, like the whole brokeback mountain thing, or the drowning royals. I defend myself, and when I am provoked sometimes I do retaliate.

No I am just one of the few mental idiots, that call you to tasks for insulting what I hold dear.

Are you deluded enough to think that, or are you deliberately lying, to try and paint me as some bashing keyboard warrior. I actually dont know when your being sarcastic, and when you are trying to be genuine. All I know is you dont like me, and you try and every given opportunity to have a go at me, on every subject under the sun. You especially like to highlight other peoples responses of dissagreement to myself, and add a one line sentance of approval. I'm actually nothing special you know, the granduer built up around me is all in your head, its not real. infact if anything, my popularity is waned and been in decline for well over a year now. Everyone has their season. I just keep doing what I'm doing, most people think I do it to show off or impress...actually, and rather selfishly, most of it is only done for myself, for my own enjoyment. The way some people argue against me, you would think my opinions actually mattered, or that I had the ability to effect anything by saying something. Thats another misnomer. I can never understand why people on here actually care about what I think. What do I know? I'm not even American

Spiritwalker
07-26-2010, 02:35 AM
Are you deluded enough to think that, or are you deliberately lying, to try and paint me as some bashing keyboard warrior.

Nope, I just call you out when you talk about the US. Nothing more. Your pompous and arrogant.. and have horrible justification for being so.

I actually dont know when your being sarcastic, and when you are trying to be genuine. All I know is you dont like me, and you try and every given opportunity to have a go at me, on every subject under the sun.

Like I said earlier, I do find myself agreeing with you on many topics, but you can't seem to handle me disagreeing with you. Like I said.. I guess I am the foolish one.. at the very least for trying to explain something to you.. rather than just ignore you. If you remember at the start of this .. I just clued you into FEMA. Nothing more..

You especially like to highlight other peoples responses of dissagreement to myself, and add a one line sentance of approval.

Hey, if I think something is "well said".. and I want to lend my voice of support.. why can't I?

I'm actually nothing special you know,

Yes, I know..

the granduer built up around me is all in your head, its not real.

There is no grandeur built up in my head. I find your very pompous. Nothing more. Your well read... and intelligent. You just pick poor ways of showing it. Or at least poor in my opinion... and I leave it alone.. 98% of the time. You talk trash about the states.. I get angry.

infact if anything, my popularity is waned and been in decline for well over a year now. Everyone has their season. I just keep doing what I'm doing, most people think I do it to show off or impress...actually, and rather selfishly, most of it is only done for myself, for my own enjoyment. The way some people argue against me, you would think my opinions actually mattered, or that I had the ability to effect anything by saying something. Thats another misnomer. I can never understand why people on here actually care about what I think. What do I know? I'm not even American

Tyburn
07-26-2010, 12:17 PM
Nope, I just call you out when you talk about the US. Nothing more. Your pompous and arrogant.. and have horrible justification for being so.

I'm not Pompous, nor Arrogant. I am very opinionated and Judgemental, but thats different

Like I said earlier, I do find myself agreeing with you on many topics, but you can't seem to handle me disagreeing with you. Like I said.. I guess I am the foolish one.. at the very least for trying to explain something to you.. rather than just ignore you. If you remember at the start of this .. I just clued you into FEMA. Nothing more..

I handle you just perfectly.

Hey, if I think something is "well said".. and I want to lend my voice of support.. why can't I?

Its just mere cooincidence that its always when someone has called me out I suppose. Part of me thinks you would do that even if you didnt think something was "well said" just to try and show yourself as being supportive of anyone who dissagrees with me.


There is no grandeur built up in my head. I find your very pompous. Nothing more. Your well read... and intelligent. You just pick poor ways of showing it. Or at least poor in my opinion... and I leave it alone.. 98% of the time. You talk trash about the states.. I get angry.

I dont talk trash about anything. I criticise sometimes. If you dont like that, tough, its called Freedom of Speach...Trust someone like you to think that only applies to your own.

:wink:

Spiritwalker
07-26-2010, 05:37 PM
I dont talk trash about anything. I criticise sometimes. If you dont like that, tough, its called Freedom of Speach...Trust someone like you to think that only applies to your own.

Its just mere cooincidence that its always when someone has called me out I suppose. Part of me thinks you would do that even if you didnt think something was "well said" just to try and show yourself as being supportive of anyone who dissagrees with me.

Paranoid Much?


So are you saying that calling people names is being critical? When I have called you a few choice words.. you whine. Yet you can talk trash about how mu country should mind it's own business.. when your is laughable.. I should just step back and let you?

OK.. that makes you pompous, arragont and a hypocrite.


I do wish your Government would spend more time in investing in its own population rather then trying to stick its nose in British Politics. I'm really very angry at part of your Government after reading todays paper.

When my Government demands something from your President that is unreasonable...then you may let me know.


Perhaps if you explain more about what exactly it is you find offensive I will be able to help you see the truth of the matter

Try not "to be funny" your pretty crap at it

Your already acting like a Senator, telling us what you would and would not do, its called making promises you cant hope to keep. Meanwhile your true political colours are obvious. by your constant attacks on me.

I almost never bash anyone or anything. I criticise things and people a lot, but there is a difference between mindless hatred, and calculated expressions of constructive criticism. If you cant tell the difference, that is your problem and not mine.

Tyburn
07-26-2010, 05:55 PM
So are you saying that calling people names is being critical? When I have called you a few choice words.. you whine. Yet you can talk trash about how mu country should mind it's own business.. when your is laughable.. I should just step back and let you?

OK.. that makes you pompous, arragont and a hypocrite.

I dont call you names all the time, I do call your actions and behaviours stupid or dumb at times.

I dont talk Trash about anything. I always have a purpose to what I say. in the case of your example, there is something called International Ettiquette, that Countries abide by, one is basically that whilst you can comment, you cant call other Governments under your own jurisdiction. To think you have the right to do that IS pompous and Arrogant...and hypocritical when you dont offer the same things back by treaty.

Thats not trash talking, thats just pointing out a few truthes...You dont like it, therefore you try and dissmiss it as lies...when really you should be saying that you recognise it was a breach of the normal but you think this is an exceptional circumstance that calls for it. Then I would reply in kind, and ask you why you think that, what other situations you think would call for that...and we could actually disscuss things...but you dont put forward ideas constructively...instead you use one liners, to show your discontent with the way things are.

You and I dont ever actually debate properly because you virtually never constructively counter my arguments...you dont make alternative suggestions, you just claim that I am wrong, that I am needlessly bashing, and that you are bravely calling me out on it.

its point and counter point...you need to watch me and Denise argue, when we dont agree on something...because she doesnt just come back with a retort, she will actually challenge me, by putting forward alternative thoughts, by suggesting alternative viewpoints to my own. JB isnt too bad, but sometimes he gets stuck in a rut and thinks if he repeats the same counters over and again, I might suddenly change my mind. Its point and counterpoint, and then I counter your counter, and so on, its stimulating, its not really aggressive or angry, its more the sharing of differing ideas on the subject. that is verbal sparring at its best.

See the difference between me and most of the people who try and contend with me, is that I could argue their point...but they dont listen enough to me to be able to argue my point

Spiritwalker
07-26-2010, 06:21 PM
I dont call you names all the time, I do call your actions and behaviours stupid or dumb at times.

Yet do you see me whining.. complaining and the like? Errmm no.

I dont talk Trash about anything. I always have a purpose to what I say. in the case of your example, there is something called International Ettiquette, that Countries abide by, one is basically that whilst you can comment, you cant call other Governments under your own jurisdiction. To think you have the right to do that IS pompous and Arrogant...and hypocritical when you dont offer the same things back by treaty.

And there is your arrogance. "I do wish your Government would spend more time in investing in its own population rather then trying to stick its nose in British Politics. I'm really very angry at part of your Government after reading todays paper. "

Maybe you should have followed your own course of action.. and asked about it instead of proclaiming your anger.. Remy pointed it out VERY well in your " A step to far" thread.. see posts 9-12 specifically.. yet you refuse to see antoher side..

Why have I not posted to that thread?? Cause I am not as up on those events to comment properly.. and you seem to be being handled quite well.

Thats not trash talking, thats just pointing out a few truthes...

As you see them.

You dont like it, therefore you try and dissmiss it as lies...

no. I dismiss it out of hand

when really you should be saying that you recognise it was a breach of the normal but you think this is an exceptional circumstance that calls for it. Then I would reply in kind, and ask you why you think that, what other situations you think would call for that...and we could actually disscuss things...but you dont put forward ideas constructively...instead you use one liners, to show your discontent with the way things are.

Because you HISTORICALLY do not discuss anything. Specifically when it comes to politics. Remember.. I just said.. "let me know when it's ok to tell you what I think"...

You and I dont ever actually debate properly because you virtually never constructively counter my arguments...you dont make alternative suggestions, you just claim that I am wrong, that I am needlessly bashing, and that you are bravely calling me out on it.

Well.. when you are wrong, you are well.. wrong. I have discussed things in the past with you.

its point and counter point...you need to watch me and Denise argue, when we dont agree on something...because she doesnt just come back with a retort, she will actually challenge me, by putting forward alternative thoughts, by suggesting alternative viewpoints to my own. JB isnt too bad, but sometimes he gets stuck in a rut and thinks if he repeats the same counters over and again, I might suddenly change my mind. Its point and counterpoint, and then I counter your counter, and so on, its stimulating, its not really aggressive or angry, its more the sharing of differing ideas on the subject. that is verbal sparring at its best.

But I don't verbally spare with you. That's what you fail to see. I show you where you are mistaken in your views of some topics.. then you whine and complain. And when you speak ill of my country.. that brings me to back handedly insulting you.

See the difference between me and most of the people who try and contend with me, is that I could argue their point...but they dont listen enough to me to be able to argue my point

Your right. People don't listen to you.

Tyburn
07-26-2010, 06:53 PM
Yet do you see me whining.. complaining and the like? Errmm no.




what do you think this whole thread has been about. You, not bothering to read what I put, and complaining because you dont like my opinions. Challenge me properly, by putting effort in, or dont bother...because everyone knows you dont aggree with me because you dont like what I say...we know that

If you think I bash your country...try to mount a defence for its sake. Dont just moooo about my opinions...that just makes you look insulting and imature.

So, next time you dissagree with me, point and counter point, or dissengage, because from this point on if you do anything other, I shall not waste my time in a response, all it does is feed and reward you, encouraging you...since you refuse to listen to reason. I see no further achievement can be made in corresponding with you.

Please note, I enjoy being challenged, but I cant be arsed with being insulted anymore. I have nothing to proove in that manner. If you wish to challenge me, I've explained how this can be done, and pointed you in the direction of learning from others that do.

Until next time :)

J.B.
07-26-2010, 07:06 PM
its point and counter point...you need to watch me and Denise argue, when we dont agree on something...because she doesnt just come back with a retort, she will actually challenge me, by putting forward alternative thoughts, by suggesting alternative viewpoints to my own. JB isnt too bad, but sometimes he gets stuck in a rut and thinks if he repeats the same counters over and again, I might suddenly change my mind. Its point and counterpoint, and then I counter your counter, and so on, its stimulating, its not really aggressive or angry, its more the sharing of differing ideas on the subject. that is verbal sparring at its best.

:rolleyes:

No Dave, you just refuse to hear me out 9 times out of 10, so I am stuck repeating points that you don't get. You use counter-points, AS DO I, but your counter points are typically something along the lines of... "I've studied this topic extensively and written papers about it, what have you done?"

The only topic you and I have really had an unresolved disagreement on is the topic of MMA and trends in pro-sports. We come from two different worlds in that respect and I don't ever expect you to understand. When I draw parallels to other professional sports, the points are LOST on you because you admit you know nothing about them. Then I come off looking like a jerk for driving that point home when you continue to break down my posts but fail to acknowledge the bigger picture I am painting for you.

You have the same broken record approach as anybody else who bothers to express their opinions as much as you and I do, so don't sugar-coat it my friend. :wink:

For example, how many times did you complain about not spending money on the UFC PPV's? Did you think saying it over and over would change MY opinion?

Tyburn
07-26-2010, 07:46 PM
:rolleyes:


You have the same broken record approach as anybody else who bothers to express their opinions as much as you and I do, so don't sugar-coat it my friend. :wink:


:w00t: I sprung a trap :laugh:

:ninja: Now I have someone to properly talk to :ashamed:

What are your feelings on Martial Law :happydancing:

J.B.
07-26-2010, 09:38 PM
:w00t: I sprung a trap :laugh:

:ninja: Now I have someone to properly talk to :ashamed:

What are your feelings on Martial Law :happydancing:

My feelings are that I really don't know enough about the specifics of how it is supposed to be applied in this country to properly comment on it.

However, I will say that I understand the "general" concept of it and see where both positives and negatives would arise in the case we would ever have to actually declare it.

So, your trap definitely worked, but I honestly don't have much of an opinion in this case. I will read up on it some more and give a more detailed response later. :)

Tyburn
07-26-2010, 10:25 PM
My feelings are that I really don't know enough about the specifics of how it is supposed to be applied in this country to properly comment on it.

However, I will say that I understand the "general" concept of it and see where both positives and negatives would arise in the case we would ever have to actually declare it.

So, your trap definitely worked, but I honestly don't have much of an opinion in this case. I will read up on it some more and give a more detailed response later. :)

I dont really understand it much myself either. My mind never shuts down. I'll be just mindlessly watching the TV...you know a shyte made for TV film comes on, and I might have it on in the background...and hear something...and think...OOOOOOOOOO I should ask about that on the forum if it has the slightest thing to do with America, or is woodshed worthy :laugh:

I can get so driven to ask, that I'll go fire the computer up half way through a documentary and start writing my own commentary to it as its playing in the background :ashamed:

My Trap was just on the offchance that either you or Denise saw your name and decided to respond, to save me, from tearing the remaining bits of hair from my head, whilst communicating with Spiritwalker :rolleyes:

J.B.
07-26-2010, 10:42 PM
I dont really understand it much myself either. My mind never shuts down. I'll be just mindlessly watching the TV...you know a shyte made for TV film comes on, and I might have it on in the background...and hear something...and think...OOOOOOOOOO I should ask about that on the forum if it has the slightest thing to do with America, or is woodshed worthy :laugh:

I can get so driven to ask, that I'll go fire the computer up half way through a documentary and start writing my own commentary to it as its playing in the background :ashamed:

My Trap was just on the offchance that either you or Denise saw your name and decided to respond, to save me, from tearing the remaining bits of hair from my head, whilst communicating with Spiritwalker :rolleyes:


LOL, I can see you typing a response literally as the info is going in one ear :laugh:

Spiritwalker is a good guy, I think you two suffer from the same problem you and I have from time to time, and that's just that we really do have two different cultures. I will be the first to admit, I don't know jack squat about England. I know you got a Queen, and I know you guys like Soccer. :laugh:

In fact, I kinda like it when you two go at it....It takes the attention off of my latest rant or argument with Buzzard.

Spiritwalker
07-27-2010, 03:28 AM
My Trap was just on the offchance that either you or Denise saw your name and decided to respond, to save me, from tearing the remaining bits of hair from my head, whilst communicating with Spiritwalker :rolleyes:

So you have to trap people into responding to you??

You pull your hair out while communicating with me??

Sorry I get under your skin so much.

Now let's think about it.

JB and I have had disagreements.. Atom and I have had disagreements.. and a few others.. I have NEVER personally attacked either of them. Only you. I wonder why that is.. hmmm...

You had to talk crap about the states.. That's what started it this time. If you notice, I was being friendly to you You were asking about National Disaster policies.. I told you about FEMA.. then you just "had" to make a negative mention about the US.. and all I did was ask you to let me know when I could talk about your country... ..

Martial Law is needed to protect the population from it's self during times of turmoil when people would be victim of low life scum... The Rodney King riots would be a good example. But that was over and done with so quick.. it wouldn't have helped.

The option of martial law is a great thing to have, but obviously would need to be used very rarely.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html#examples

Tyburn
07-27-2010, 11:28 AM
LOL, I can see you typing a response literally as the info is going in one ear :laugh:

.

:laugh: Its just how it happens....almost exactly :laugh:

I do think we have different cultures...I actually think that Americans understand that, whereas British people tend to think of Americans as part of their own culture then get suprised when they react differently. Whereas when British people act differently, Americans just laugh and put it down to them being British...and, without being a stereotype, thats pretty much what it is...two different paradigmns...closely linked...but NOT the same.