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Dethbob
06-28-2010, 05:24 PM
No matter how you look at it, the current MMA (or pro boxing for that matter) landscape can not be truly described as a championship. Fighters fight those who are assigned to them and the Champion in a particular area is the winner of whatever fight was arbitrarily designated a Ďtitle boutí. The best fighter may never be given a title shot if he is not popular, his style is perceived as boring, or he has an excellent chance at beating someone an organization is heavily invested in.

Now, most fighters fight (or would like to) about three times a year. I think this is the seed of a solution. An open call could allow each competitor to fight three times in a year; each fighter could be given an apgar type score for the year, two points for each TKO/sub, one point for each win at catch weight or by decision or DQ, zero for a loss or draw. Total fight time could be used for a tie breaker.

The top five could be dropped into the following yearís eight man tournament. Two other slots would be reserved for the previous yearís finalists. The remaining spot would be a wild card filled at the discretion of the promotion and would be used to draw in competitors from other promotions, sports, or fields of infamy.

The quarterfinals of one weight division could serve as preliminary bouts for the finals of another, and so on, ensuring pre-filled cards with must-see fights throughout the year. The overlapping tournaments would ensure anticipation for each show, and the Champion would truly be the one who had fought and beat the best available competition.

One manís opinion, but to me that would be an ultimate fighting championship!

J.B.
06-28-2010, 06:17 PM
Well, first off, Boxing and MMA are two very different beasts in terms of how matchmaking is done. The MMA world is largely centered around a "company first" business model that puts the brand name ahead of the fighters, especially with the UFC.

In Boxing, the landscape at the top of the food chain is controlled by the fighters themselves more so than in MMA. Of course, Boxers do typically have promoters, but the relationship is more of a reversed role for Boxing's biggest names than it is in MMA. Promoters like Top Rank and Golden Boy Promotions are definitely making big shares of the profits, but the fighters are in MUCH more control than the guys in the UFC. Also, many of the top boxers run their own promotional companies, such a Floyd Mayweather Promotions out of Vegas, or Roy Jones's Square Ring Promotions out of Pensacola. Thats not to say that Boxer's at the lower end of the totem pole aren't getting shafted by some promoters and the like, however none of them are competing at a level that is considered the best in the world, which is what the UFC is supposed to be.

There are always going to be fighters who draw both positive and negative reaction, but ultimately the organizations cannot just turn their back on guys who are winning fights against top competition no matter how boring the fans may think it is. When it comes to orgs having a vested interest in seeing a fighter win, I think we have seen that the UFC and other companies have been pretty good about making good fights and moving forward appropriately, even when their cash cow loses.

As for your suggestions in regards to a constant tournament style setup, I think it's a good idea for setting up eliminator fights for under-level competition or when a title is vacated, but the idea of a living tournament isn't something I think would always give us the best fights in terms how the talent is perceived. Also, there would be other factors to think about such as fighters pulling out of the tournament due to injury or because they don't want to fight the lesser known guy who pulled off an upset, which WOULD happen and it would happen a LOT. Then there is the most important issue, which is money, and guys who are getting good wins are gonna want more money for their next fight even if that means they are still a year and a half away from winning said tournament. Also, as has been seen with the Super Six tournament that has been recently held by Showtime in Boxing's Middleweight division, by the time the fights transpire and the tournament moves on to later rounds, the buzz around the tournament has worn off because it's taken so long.

For me, I don't put that much emphasis on the titles anymore, in either sport, because Boxing has too many SB's handing out titles at "Super" and "Junior" weight divisions to anybody dumb enough to pay their sanctioning fee, and the UFC and Strikeforce have too many paper titles. Not to mention, this sport literally epitomizes the term "Any Given Sunday", so today's champ turns into tomorrow's tomato can in the eyes of too many of the sport's casual fans.

Dethbob
07-10-2010, 03:48 PM
I understand that some fighters, both in boxing and in MMA, have more or less influence over the pick and choose process, but that is beside the point. For this to be a Championship instead of a mere spectacle, each competitor has to face the next legitimate challenger rather than a 'match' that benefits the organization or an individual fighter. It is not rational to think that promoters will make these matches out of the depth of their character; neither Petruzelli nor Werdum would have been allowed in the ring if anyone had thought they would actually win. And an organization in the current structure doesn't have to give anyone fights against 'top competition' if they don't want them to move up. In Matt's book he talks about the difficulty he sometimes had finding fights, because other fighters new he would just beat them up. I think that if you dominate the competition you should be moved up, not left out, but thatís not how it currently works.

Now, I understand that there is some fragility inherent to the tournament format, but this should not be too difficult to correct. The top runners up could be tapped as alternates, fighting to be provisional champ and seeded in the next yearís bracket. Each level of the bracket would have a successively higher payout, just as preliminary and main event bouts do currently. The improving payouts and perceived legitimacy of the tournament format would make it less likely that those who had won a spot in the show would simply quit for a better deal elsewhere.

I think that this format would do a better job of attracting and exposing the best talent, and capturing the imagination of the fans.

J.B.
07-10-2010, 06:05 PM
I understand that some fighters, both in boxing and in MMA, have more or less influence over the pick and choose process, but that is beside the point. For this to be a Championship instead of a mere spectacle, each competitor has to face the next legitimate challenger rather than a 'match' that benefits the organization or an individual fighter. It is not rational to think that promoters will make these matches out of the depth of their character; neither Petruzelli nor Werdum would have been allowed in the ring if anyone had thought they would actually win. And an organization in the current structure doesn't have to give anyone fights against 'top competition' if they don't want them to move up. In Matt's book he talks about the difficulty he sometimes had finding fights, because other fighters new he would just beat them up. I think that if you dominate the competition you should be moved up, not left out, but thatís not how it currently works.

Now, I understand that there is some fragility inherent to the tournament format, but this should not be too difficult to correct. The top runners up could be tapped as alternates, fighting to be provisional champ and seeded in the next yearís bracket. Each level of the bracket would have a successively higher payout, just as preliminary and main event bouts do currently. The improving payouts and perceived legitimacy of the tournament format would make it less likely that those who had won a spot in the show would simply quit for a better deal elsewhere.

I think that this format would do a better job of attracting and exposing the best talent, and capturing the imagination of the fans.

You are never going separate the spectacle from the sport because its the spectacle that draws the fans, NOT the title belts. History proves that "championships" or "title belts" constantly move around, but they are nothing but a moniker created out of thin air by some guy/company looking to cash in on the fighter they call "the best" of the time. It's an OLD business. Obviously winning titles is important to legacy (ask Lebron James), but once a fighter has won a title and gone on to defend numerous times it becomes about the meat and potatoes of the overall resume.

Making the next fight based on "legitimacy" is a VERY subjective argument. The term legitimacy, when used the way you put it, could only refer to "rankings". We know it's not always that black and white. Sometimes it's cut and dry who deserves to be where, but it''s not a perfect science and guys get overlooked and over-ranked all the time.

As soon as you start talking about having alternate fighters, "provisional" or "interim" champions, and the fact that the tournament would never really end in that system, I start to tune out because it makes it basically the same thing we have now except with a bracket on a piece of paper. It also doesn't add any extra legitimacy simply because there is a "bracket" adding a sense of structure. The first time there is a questionable call or decision (which happens all the time), the legitimacy goes out the window.

This is a sport, but it's still a fight and that is what attracts people. One and done tournaments are exciting and they capture the attention of fans, but when you have to stretch them out over the course of a year, people lose interest. Also just to add, if one and done tournaments were truly the best way of seeing the most "legitimate" competition at the time face each other, we would never see no-name colleges in the Final Four, or Wild Card teams in the Super-Bowl. I'm not saying tournaments are bad, but I don't see them having much of a place outside of filling a title vacancy or figuring out title eliminator fights amongst lower ranked opponents.

Dethbob
07-10-2010, 07:27 PM
Hereís what I heard: Blah blah blah... Exciting! You keep describing the problem as if it were the solution. Starting with no legitimacy in the first place is not better than losing a little through misadventure, and though a bad call now and then may make everyone shout and bang the table, no one stops watching.

...This is a sport, but it's still a fight and that is what attracts people. One and done tournaments are exciting and they capture the attention of fans...

These two statements are not mutually exclusive: More exciting equals better and I think there would be enough going on in the different brackets to maintain interest.

J.B.
07-10-2010, 08:49 PM
Here’s what I heard: Blah blah blah... Exciting! You keep describing the problem as if it were the solution.

WTF? :huh:

This is YOUR thread about having a tournament style setup because YOU don't think MMA/Boxing puts on the RIGHT fights. :laugh:

I am telling you that your method doesn't really add anything of value. If you think there is a problem with the current method, fine, but your solution of adding a bracket doesn't mean it's definitely going to be more exciting than making a fight that people think would be the best for the time. Yeah, tournaments can be exciting, but they can also be a letdown, and having one that goes all year and then starts right back up again would essentially be what we already have but with more restrictions that would ultimately end up being ignored because of guys pulling out of fights. It's for that reason that tournaments rarely work, and it wouldn't be able to sustain longevity as the method used to make the best fights to determine a champion.



Starting with no legitimacy in the first place is not better than losing a little through misadventure, and though a bad call now and then may make everyone shout and bang the table, no one stops watching.

Starting with NO legitimacy in the first place? You mean like the UFC did when it had one and done tournaments where fighters fought 3 times in one night and only hardcore fan-boys cared about it? I would say that 3 fights in one night is more exciting than 3 fights in one year, but that doesn't make it BETTER. Why do you think we HAVEN'T seen that scenario happen since Zuffa took over? It's not just that sanctioning won't permit it, it's because we ended up with ridiculous outcomes and people cared more about the super fights than the fights in the tournaments.

The UFC under Zuffa has been more legit than you are giving them credit for, but there have been problems.


These two statements are not mutually exclusive: More exciting equals better and I think there would be enough going on in the different brackets to maintain interest.

You clearly didn't bother to finish quoting the rest of my sentence, and essentially took that quote out of context. More exciting does NOT equal better, that is just nonsense.

As a sports fan, if you tell me that the tournament lasts all year, and then starts over as soon as this one is done, I say "why?!?" It's like Soccer-Guy trying to explain how a "World Cup" game can end in a draw or how Soccer can have overtime with no DEFINITIVE time limit, it just makes no sense. The scenario you are suggesting isn't really any different than what we already have. You are just adding a "bracket" and calling that legitimacy. :rolleyes:

Tyburn
07-11-2010, 03:36 PM
No matter how you look at it, the current MMA (or pro boxing for that matter) landscape can not be truly described as a championship. Fighters fight those who are assigned to them and the Champion in a particular area is the winner of whatever fight was arbitrarily designated a Ďtitle boutí. The best fighter may never be given a title shot if he is not popular, his style is perceived as boring, or he has an excellent chance at beating someone an organization is heavily invested in.

Now, most fighters fight (or would like to) about three times a year. I think this is the seed of a solution. An open call could allow each competitor to fight three times in a year; each fighter could be given an apgar type score for the year, two points for each TKO/sub, one point for each win at catch weight or by decision or DQ, zero for a loss or draw. Total fight time could be used for a tie breaker.

The top five could be dropped into the following yearís eight man tournament. Two other slots would be reserved for the previous yearís finalists. The remaining spot would be a wild card filled at the discretion of the promotion and would be used to draw in competitors from other promotions, sports, or fields of infamy.

The quarterfinals of one weight division could serve as preliminary bouts for the finals of another, and so on, ensuring pre-filled cards with must-see fights throughout the year. The overlapping tournaments would ensure anticipation for each show, and the Champion would truly be the one who had fought and beat the best available competition.

One manís opinion, but to me that would be an ultimate fighting championship!

The Ultimate Fighting Championships used to be proper tournements, like a mini grande prix on each of the nights, the winner of the tournement had to fight several times in one night....it went out of fashion when the weight divisions came in.

I've always wondered why the UFC dont do grand prix...but its because its not in their best interest. They usually find guys they like and want to promote, a fixed level for contendership would force them to promote guys they dont want to at times. This way, with no set contendership numbers, the UFC decided who gets to fight who and how they progress.

J.B.
07-11-2010, 03:58 PM
The Ultimate Fighting Championships used to be proper tournements, like a mini grande prix on each of the nights, the winner of the tournement had to fight several times in one night....it went out of fashion when the weight divisions came in.

I've always wondered why the UFC dont do grand prix...but its because its not in their best interest. They usually find guys they like and want to promote, a fixed level for contendership would force them to promote guys they dont want to at times. This way, with no set contendership numbers, the UFC decided who gets to fight who and how they progress.

They don't do a Grand Prix because it would have to be stretched out over a longer period of time with the way sanctioning works today, and because guys will pull out of fights if they don't like the match-up they get or they get injured and it messes it all up.

It's fun to see as a one off thing once in a while, but it's not a viable system for determining the best fights.

Tyburn
07-11-2010, 09:39 PM
They don't do a Grand Prix because it would have to be stretched out over a longer period of time with the way sanctioning works today, and because guys will pull out of fights if they don't like the match-up they get or they get injured and it messes it all up.

It's fun to see as a one off thing once in a while, but it's not a viable system for determining the best fights.

Bellator manage it. Sorry, I dont buy it. what you mean is the UFC cant be arsed to put the effort in with the Sanctioning, and enforce who fights who

"best" fights. I think we were talking about true fights...half the issue with the UFC is that they can square off "best" fights way before their time, at the expense of those who deserve a shot because of their skills...but arent quite as marketable as others.

Besides...who wants to see "Best" fights...if your worried about the true fights being less exciting...I shouldnt worry about that...they cant get as bad as Anderson Silva Vs anyone can they :laugh: Your the guy whose usually less of a blood sport excitiment character and more into fights as a sport...well then, shouldnt you be in favour of true and proper regulated contendership patterns...even if the fights are less exciting when they happen?

Either your out for blood or your not...make your mind up :laugh:

J.B.
07-11-2010, 11:12 PM
Bellator manage it. Sorry, I dont buy it. what you mean is the UFC cant be arsed to put the effort in with the Sanctioning, and enforce who fights who

Bellator is B-level...so buy it. Those guys aren't gonna complain because they either eat scraps or they don't eat at all.

The UFC still has power to force guys to fight somebody they want them to fight or they can just put them on the shelf.


"best" fights. I think we were talking about true fights...half the issue with the UFC is that they can square off "best" fights way before their time, at the expense of those who deserve a shot because of their skills...but arent quite as marketable as others.

It ain't always right, but it's a reality. You are over in the other thread complaining about Anderson Silva giving you entertainment for money that you never actually spent, but you are mad at the UFC for trying to sell the MOST entertaining product? Which one is it?

Also, at the same time you are one of the Vuvuzela Blowers who says Boxing is so damn corrupt (yet you admit you know nothing about it) but Boxing doesn't have one organization holding it by the throat.


Besides...who wants to see "Best" fights...if your worried about the true fights being less exciting...I shouldnt worry about that...they cant get as bad as Anderson Silva Vs anyone can they :laugh: Your the guy whose usually less of a blood sport excitiment character and more into fights as a sport...well then, shouldnt you be in favour of true and proper regulated contendership patterns...even if the fights are less exciting when they happen?

You just went off into La-La-Land again Dave...

Go back and read what I have said and give it a chance to sink in.

"True and Proper" patterns? Dude, do you watch ANY sports at all besides MMA?

Seriously bro, do you? :huh:


Either your out for blood or your not...make your mind up :laugh:

What are they putting in that English water? :unsure-1:

Tyburn
07-11-2010, 11:21 PM
1) Bellator is B-level...so buy it. Those guys aren't gonna complain because they either eat scraps or they don't eat at all.

Sanctioning has nothing to do with it unless you are talking about multiple fights in one night. The UFC still has power to force guys to fight somebody they want them to fight or they can just put them on the shelf.




2) It ain't always right, but it's a reality. You are over in the other thread complaining about Anderson Silva giving you entertainment for money that you never spent, but you are mad at the UFC for trying to sell the MOST entertaining product? Which one is it?

3) Also, at the same time you are one of the Vuvuzela Blowers who says Boxing is so damn corrupt (yet you admit you know nothing about it) but Boxing doesn't have one organization holding it by the throat.



4) You just went off into La-La-Land again Dave...

Go back and read what I have said and give it a chance to sink in.

"True and Proper" patterns? Dude, do you watch ANY sports at all besides MMA?

Seriously bro, do you? :huh:



5) What are they putting in that English water? :unsure-1:

1) Bellator is ace. I actually have gotten quite into it. those scraps your talking about are quite often my online fighter friends outside of hear. dont be mean to them :angry:

2) I'm not using ignorance to hide my argument. I am wellaware of how things are versus how they should be. The difference is I dont pretend I fail to grasp the former to prop up my argument about the latter. :wink:

3) I dont think I've ever said boxing is corrupt. I dont know nowt about boxing...I dont hate the sport...I just find it boring so I dont watch it. I imagine it is corrupt as any sport of its size. I imagine im right in that...no :huh:

4) Nope. I dont like sport. I dont like watching, and I dont like participating. I watch the olympics because of its status...ill watch Fooball if and only if our country gets to a final. I can cope with kickboxing, but I dont watch it often. Mixed Martial Arts I really like...professional wrestling I like, but not as much as I used to, and its not really a sport.

5) probably far to much chlorine and flourine aswell. I only have tap water in juice...oh and tea but I boil it then. my water...which Rich Franklin has forced me to drink (dont ask...its a long story) comes out of a bottle :laugh: You must remember I come from a european perspective...we invented sports, entertainment...and sports entertainment also. From Olympics to Ludi :w00t:

J.B.
07-11-2010, 11:40 PM
1) Bellator is ace. I actually have gotten quite into it. those scraps your talking about are quite often my online fighter friends outside of hear. dont be mean to them :angry:

Dave, rope it back there partner...

I'm not dissing those guys, but the fact is those are mostly guys looking to break into the next level and fight for BIG money. Fighters want to make MONEY. The biggest money for an MMA fighter is the UFC, that's just how it is.

They ain't gonna complain because they are looking to make a name for themselves. Thats why I said to Dethbob that tournaments are better suited for lower level competitions or for title vacancy/eliminator situations.


2) I'm not using ignorance to hide my argument. I am wellaware of how things are versus how they should be. The difference is I dont pretend I fail to grasp the former to prop up my argument about the latter. :wink:

Yet you still watch the UFC if you really feel that way?


3) I dont think I've ever said boxing is corrupt. I dont know nowt about boxing...I dont hate the sport...I just find it boring so I dont watch it. I imagine it is corrupt as any sport of its size. I imagine im right in that...no :huh:


Really? Do you want me to to use the search function and prove you wrong?


4) Nope. I dont like sport. I dont like watching, and I dont like participating. I watch the olympics because of its status...ill watch Fooball if and only if our country gets to a final. I can cope with kickboxing, but I dont watch it often. Mixed Martial Arts I really like...professional wrestling I like, but not as much as I used to, and its not really a sport.

"I don't like sport" :wacko:

Man, I feel for you... I mean that, I really do. You are missing out.

Oh, and soccer sucks, we play real football here in America. :laugh: (sorry I couldnt help myself on that one)


5) probably far to much chlorine and flourine aswell. I only have tap water in juice...oh and tea but I boil it then. my water...which Rich Franklin has forced me to drink (dont ask...its a long story) comes out of a bottle :laugh: You must remember I come from a european perspective...we invented sports, entertainment...and sports entertainment also. From Olympics to Ludi :w00t:

Rich Franklin is forcing you to drink water? I gotta ask! :rolleyes:

No seriously, I remember you saying you had a discussion with him about that. He is right, DRINK WATER! I live in the desert, man, in these weeks of June and July it is like 90 degrees ALL NIGHT LONG, and like 110 in the daytime...you learn to really appreciate God's gift of water. I'm not talking about that carbonated crap, or some sugar filled teas, I'm talking about good ol' fashioned WATER. Good for the body, good for the soul! :laugh:

Tyburn
07-11-2010, 11:55 PM
1) Yet you still watch the UFC if you really feel that way?

2) Really? Do you want me to to use the search function and prove you wrong?

3) Rich Franklin is forcing you to drink water? I gotta ask! :rolleyes:



1) yes :unsure-1:

2) I dont remember saying its Corrupt...but...if I did say that...so long as it is...I dont see what the problem is :laugh:

3) Rich Franklin told me (and I'm paraphrasing) that one reason why I might not be able to loose weight is that I dont drink water. He said that what they dont think to tell you is that water is an essentail ingredient in using up fat. He also said that water is made as a byproduct. So I drank water, and the week after asked him how come i'd put on weight...and he said not to worry if it was the first week, because water is quite heavy...anyway...I kept drinking...nowhere near the ammount he wanted me to drink...and he started laying down rules like, I asked it the water in tea counted, and he said no, so I asked him if sparkling water counted, and he said absolutely not...he said it had to be just water.

So now when I get up before going to work I must drink this water...and when I come home from work I must drink more water...and then its just a little bit in the evening...that way I get through a bottle in two days...he kinda wanted me to get through the whole bottle in a day...but I told him I couldnt possibly drink that much water :unsure::laugh: I think we aggreed to build up to it, when I reached a plateau or something...but I cant remember...or maybe ive deliberately forgotten :ashamed::laugh:

it does work in conjunction with all the rest...but the problem is I forget to do it at the weekends...:unsure-1: but at least he tried to help, I think I responded to one of his blogs on health or diet or something...and thats whay started...he's usually quite alright in responding...though I dont like speak to him everyday or owt, just here and there as something in his blog catches my eye or he has a fight or something...then we ping pong until we've exausted a subject...he's quite deep and got a very well developed philosophy, he's also quite extreme J typology, so its not to hard for us to be on the same wavelength :laugh:

J.B.
07-12-2010, 12:10 AM
1) yes :unsure-1:


Exactly, then deal with it or make Bellator your only option.


2) I dont remember saying its Corrupt...but...if I did say that...so long as it is...I dont see what the problem is :laugh:

You did, and you have many times. Does it matter? Nope.

It just shows a lack of understanding on your part. You have specifically said you don't want MMA to be like Boxing, but you don't know s**t about Boxing and don't even realize that the UFC's brand of Mixed Martial Arts IS a mixture of Pro-Wrestling and Boxing.


3) Rich Franklin told me (and I'm paraphrasing) that one reason why I might not be able to loose weight is that I dont drink water. He said that what they dont think to tell you is that water is an essentail ingredient in using up fat. He also said that water is made as a byproduct. So I drank water, and the week after asked him how come i'd put on weight...and he said not to worry if it was the first week, because water is quite heavy...anyway...I kept drinking...nowhere near the ammount he wanted me to drink...and he started laying down rules like, I asked it the water in tea counted, and he said no, so I asked him if sparkling water counted, and he said absolutely not...he said it had to be just water.

So now when I get up before going to work I must drink this water...and when I come home from work I must drink more water...and then its just a little bit in the evening...that way I get through a bottle in two days...he kinda wanted me to get through the whole bottle in a day...but I told him I couldnt possibly drink that much water :unsure::laugh: I think we aggreed to build up to it, when I reached a plateau or something...but I cant remember...or maybe ive deliberately forgotten :ashamed::laugh:

it does work in conjunction with all the rest...but the problem is I forget to do it at the weekends...:unsure-1: but at least he tried to help, I think I responded to one of his blogs on health or diet or something...and thats whay started...he's usually quite alright in responding...though I dont like speak to him everyday or owt, just here and there as something in his blog catches my eye or he has a fight or something...then we ping pong until we've exausted a subject...he's quite deep and got a very well developed philosophy, he's also quite extreme J typology, so its not to hard for us to be on the same wavelength :laugh:

What do you drink usually?

I know water is bland, but if you REALLY wanna lose weight you gotta just do it man. Drink water, sweat, and piss. You will lose weight. (hang on that sounded bad... don't DRINK the sweat or the piss...)

Tyburn
07-12-2010, 12:13 AM
What do you drink usually?


Pop....Tea...thats probably about it :unsure-1:

thing is I dont like the taste of water on its own :sad:

I force myself and nearly drown :laugh:

J.B.
07-12-2010, 12:18 AM
Pop....Tea...thats probably about it :unsure-1:

thing is I dont like the taste of water on its own :sad:

I force myself and nearly drown :laugh:

That is your problem man...pop and tea are loaded with calories and sugar.

Even switching to Diet pop or Diet tea will help, but water is the way to go.

You know what I do? I get a big ol glass of water with a ton of ice cubes and I chew the s**t out of them ice cubes...:laugh:

Seriously though, have you ever tried putting a Lemon or a lime slice in your water? Or maybe try "Crystal Light" sweeteners? Not sure if they have that in England, but say the word and I will send you a case. :wink:

Dethbob
07-12-2010, 08:41 PM
I can imagine UFC 1 without the bracket:

Gracie wins against some boxer, no punches or kicks thrown and no one can figure out what happened. Some booing from the crowd, Gracie doesn't get invited back.

Gordeau and Shamrock look very impressive; a 'Championship' bout is set up. Tickets are sold, beer consumed, everyone wins. The conventional wisdom that kickboxing and shoot wrestling are the deadly is proven right.

With the spectacle exhausted and nothing new to learn, everyone goes back to their dojos and the whole 'challenge match' thing goes away for a few more decades.

Tyburn
07-12-2010, 09:54 PM
That is your problem man...pop and tea are loaded with calories and sugar.

Even switching to Diet pop or Diet tea will help, but water is the way to go.

You know what I do? I get a big ol glass of water with a ton of ice cubes and I chew the s**t out of them ice cubes...:laugh:

Seriously though, have you ever tried putting a Lemon or a lime slice in your water? Or maybe try "Crystal Light" sweeteners? Not sure if they have that in England, but say the word and I will send you a case. :wink:

Tea isnt loaded with calories...I'm not talking about your American style tea. When I say tea...I mean hot water, milk, and a bag full of tea leaves

Yes I do lemon and lime...but I still dont like it...and I dont do icecubes coz of sensative teeth :laugh:

Rich Franklin mentioned "crystal light" but I've never heard of it, I have never seen it in England whatever it is :blink: