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Rev
06-27-2010, 04:23 AM
The ref who did the cyborg fight needs to be beaten!!
Santos almost killed that girl! I have never seen a beating that bad. that fight should have been stopped early in the 1st and she let it go halfway through the 2nd. Please tell me someone else saw this crap.

Bonnie
06-27-2010, 04:34 AM
I didn't get to see the fights. I did see the weigh-ins so I saw who she was fighting--attractive woman. At least she was. :unsure-1:

Was she knocked out? :huh:

Jeez, it was bad enough watching Jon Jones hammer Matt Hamill's face with those elbows in that fight; I can't bear watching a woman getting hit/beat like that even if it is by another woman. :scared0011:

MattHughesRocks
06-27-2010, 04:37 AM
I've seen Cyborg fight before and it was freakin' AWESOME. I loved seeing those bitches give each other the smack down :punch:

Before I saw it I didn't like the idea tho. Go figure :laugh:

I havent seen the fights either:sad:

MattHughesRocks
06-27-2010, 04:43 AM
Strikeforce Women's Middleweight Championship
Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos vs. Jan Finney
Round 1
Finney lands a good right hook to start proceedings, forcing Cyborg to flurry back. Finney lands another clean right hands that makes Santos close the distance and clinch up. After they break, Cyborg lands a hard right hands, and just continues to throw heavy leather, dropping Finney to her knees. As Finney regains her footing, she walks facefirst into a Cyborg right knee that puts her on her knee again. Great chin from Finney shown so far. Up against the fence, Santos lands another wicked right corss that puts Finney on the deck, clinging to a single leg. Cyborg smashes away with hammerfists to the side of her head, until she pulls guard. Referee Kim Winslow stands the fighters and Cyborg blasts her with another right hand. Cyborg pounces with punches and bunches and hits the back of the head at the end of a flurry. Winslow deducts a point for the foul. Finney is given time to recover and her face is all busted up. The fighters trade punches briefly and Cyborg presses her prey against the fencing. The Brazilian steps backwards to gain a punching distance and she delivers. The fighters trade and Cyborg bullies her with straight rights. Finney collapses to the floor and Cyborg tees of with her right hand. Cyborg looks at Winslow, but the referee does nothing. Finney is turtled and Cyborg is showing no mercy. The round ends with Finney getting beat on while attempting a single.

Jordan Breen scores the round 9-7 Cyborg
TJ De Santis scores the round 9-8 Cyborg
Mike Fridley scores the round 9-7 Cyborg

Round 2
Dave Mandel/Sherdog.com

Cyborg vs. Finney
A battered Finney begins round two with another nice right hand, which only seems to rouse Cyborg again. Cyborg now landsing hard jabs, and shrugs off a Finney takedown. Cyborg pelts Finney with right hands as Finney sits on her knees. Cyborg kneels into knee on belly against the fence, hammerfisting Finney, before settling into side control. Cyborg stands up and gets away, and again resumes landing jabs and right hands on Finney. Cyborg again gets double underhooks against the fence. Cyborg lands a three-punch combo and clinches again. Referee Kim Winslow breaks the pair. As they resume, Cyborg again lands a volley of punches, forcing Finney to the fence. Cyborg grabs the clinch and plants a vicious knee into the guts of Finney that drops "Cuddles" to the canvas, and flurries with strikes until Winslow steps in to halt the one-sided beating. Cristiane "Cyborg" Santos retains her Strikeforce title at 2:56 of the second round.

J.B.
06-27-2010, 04:45 AM
I saw it and I agree completely.

Although that's where MMA is still in it's infancy when it comes to how it is reffed and judged. If that were a Boxing match, it would have been stopped due to lack of competitiveness. However, in an MMA fight, getting knocked down does not stop the action, so the refs have to give the fighters a chance to mount some sort of a ground attack. However, the double edged sword is that the rules allow fighters to FORCE their opponents to fight on the feet by simply walking away from them or stalling on the ground until the ref stands them up. So when you have fights like this, that is what happens.

The refs are in there to protect the fighters, and that fight should have been stopped MUCH sooner.

Liddellfan
06-27-2010, 04:51 AM
FEDOR LOOSES!!! Triangle choke first round.

Bonnie
06-27-2010, 04:52 AM
Just from reading, it sounds like it definitely should have been stopped way earlier. :sad:

Maybe Cyborg should be fighting guys. From what they've been saying, pickings are getting pretty slim on the girls' side.

logrus
06-27-2010, 04:58 AM
Smith got kicked in the tummy and he just curled up in the turtle position lol.

KevinD
06-27-2010, 05:00 AM
Cuddles is one tough woman. She took a beating and just kept coming. Ref should have stopped it earlier.

KevinD
06-27-2010, 05:01 AM
Nothing is going right for Strikeforce. Hendo loses when they bet the farm that he will win. Now their best fighter takes one minute to lose tonight, opening up the smack talk from Dana.

rearnakedchoke
06-27-2010, 05:04 AM
yeah, that was madness ... shoulda been stopped 30 seconds in ...

rockdawg21
06-27-2010, 05:38 AM
Here's the only one I could find on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmu7NfXnfdM

That didn't seem that bad. She was still fighting back.

Chuck
06-27-2010, 05:50 AM
Here's the only one I could find on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmu7NfXnfdM

That didn't seem that bad. She was still fighting back.
Thanks bro. :)

J.B.
06-27-2010, 05:59 AM
Here's the only one I could find on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmu7NfXnfdM

That didn't seem that bad. She was still fighting back.

Completely uncompetitive and ridiculous.

That fight should have been stopped after the first 3 minutes.

Wait till we see some pictures of Jan tomorrow.

rockdawg21
06-27-2010, 06:06 AM
Completely uncompetitive and ridiculous.

That fight should have been stopped after the first 3 minutes.

Wait till we see some pictures of Jan tomorrow.
Didn't see the first round. All I could find was this, but it didn't look bad. Could see the cuts, but Jan was still coming forward and throwing punches.

J.B.
06-27-2010, 06:16 AM
Didn't see the first round. All I could find was this, but it didn't look bad. Could see the cuts, but Jan was still coming forward and throwing punches.

A lot of people who die from trauma received during fights are coming forward and throwing punches the whole time until they sit down when the fight is over.

It wasn't the worst thing I've seen, but it was completely uncompetitive and everybody could see that. The ref was negligent to let that fight continue in my opinion.

MattHughesRocks
06-27-2010, 07:09 AM
Ok now that was bad. What an idiot that ref was! Cyborg...she's going to have to start fighting dudes :laugh:

County Mike
06-27-2010, 02:08 PM
I was thinking the same thing, that the fight should have been stopped soooner. However, she was fighting back with up kicks and actively defending herself. If it was two guys and got stopped, we'd be yelling about an early stoppage.

Since it was a girl getting beaten up, it was hard to take. Even though she was fighting back, she really had no chance of winning. Her strikes had zero effect on Mr. Cyborg. So while I agree that I would have liked to see the fight stopped sooner, it's hard to say the ref acted incorrectly.

J.B.
06-27-2010, 11:33 PM
I was thinking the same thing, that the fight should have been stopped soooner. However, she was fighting back with up kicks and actively defending herself. If it was two guys and got stopped, we'd be yelling about an early stoppage.

Since it was a girl getting beaten up, it was hard to take. Even though she was fighting back, she really had no chance of winning. Her strikes had zero effect on Mr. Cyborg. So while I agree that I would have liked to see the fight stopped sooner, it's hard to say the ref acted incorrectly.

I have to disagree.

Being two men or two women makes no difference in the fact that one fighter was grossly uncompetitive with the other. The referees are supposed to recognize that and be the person who steps in to make that decision, even if it's not a popular one. Winning is paramount in this sport, so I understand giving fighters an opportunity to fight their way back into a fight, but that will never justify allowing such a one sided beatdown to go on.

There were numerous instances during the first round where the ref would have been justified in stepping and stopping the fight. Yes, Jan Finney was fighting back, but that is not saying much at all. I realize it's easy to say, "oh Jan is a big girl" and "she will be fine" after the fact (which is what a lot of fans and analysts are saying), and while both those things are likely true, what would fans be saying if she wasn't alright? Serious injuries happen all the time, and anytime they occur do to an unnecessary amount of extra beating, we cannot simply blame the violent nature of the sport given the fact that we have rules and guidelines in place to prevent such a thing from happening.

logrus
06-27-2010, 11:58 PM
I am 50/50 on this one, I could see why they could have stopped it. Then again I saw enough out of Finney where I could see why the fight was continued.

There have been plenty of fights that were onesided but changed in the blink of an eye. Either by the fighter getting caught or becoming gassed out to the point the other fighter had just a bit more in the reserve tank.

annamal
06-28-2010, 12:37 AM
It it was a mismatch it was the fault of the matchmaker. There were plenty of better matches out there for Santos. Strikeforce is really mismanaging it's female divisions so far. I guess I shouldn't complain though since they and Bellator are the only big(ish) mma orgs promoting female fights right now. Finney really hasn't done anything to earn a title shot. Strikeforce needs to get it together. Maybe put someone in charge of the women's division that actually cares about it.

J.B.
06-28-2010, 12:37 AM
I am 50/50 on this one, I could see why they could have stopped it. Then again I saw enough out of Finney where I could see why the fight was continued.

There have been plenty of fights that were onesided but changed in the blink of an eye. Either by the fighter getting caught or becoming gassed out to the point the other fighter had just a bit more in the reserve tank.

You are right, but I think the example would need to be more specific in order to properly put it into context. Like, which fights are you thinking of in particular?

Finney was clearly rocked several times and I think she was knocked down like 5 or 6 times in the first round. I mean, when a fighter is just siting on the canvas with the look Jan Finney had on her face, there was no reason that fight should have continued.

That ref was negligent and clearly showed her incompetence by

a) not stopping the fight much sooner

b) asking Cyborg if she wanted Finney to stand up

c) deducting a point from Cyborg too quickly for the rabbit punches

Hey, Reffing ain't an easy task, and points B and C are definitely more arguable, but a ref NEEDS to know when a fight should be stopped. I would always rather see a fight stopped too early rather than too late.

logrus
06-28-2010, 02:14 AM
You are right, but I think the example would need to be more specific in order to properly put it into context. Like, which fights are you thinking of in particular?

Finney was clearly rocked several times and I think she was knocked down like 5 or 6 times in the first round. I mean, when a fighter is just siting on the canvas with the look Jan Finney had on her face, there was no reason that fight should have continued.

That ref was negligent and clearly showed her incompetence by

a) not stopping the fight much sooner

b) asking Cyborg if she wanted Finney to stand up

c) deducting a point from Cyborg too quickly for the rabbit punches

Hey, Reffing ain't an easy task, and points B and C are definitely more arguable, but a ref NEEDS to know when a fight should be stopped. I would always rather see a fight stopped too early rather than too late.

Hard to name a fight but we always see it, guy gets either rocked or knock down but recovers, or he grasps for dear life and hopes nothing happens on the ground so he can recover. I remember watching one fight where the guy was constantly rocked, tried for a take down, fight is back on the feet and he is rocked again.

J.B.
06-28-2010, 02:33 AM
Hard to name a fight but we always see it, guy gets either rocked or knock down but recovers, or he grasps for dear life and hopes nothing happens on the ground so he can recover. I remember watching one fight where the guy was constantly rocked, tried for a take down, fight is back on the feet and he is rocked again.

For sure, I know we see it, but off the top of my head I can't think of a fight where I felt like it was that uncompetitive and I literally felt like the ref was being negligent by not waving the fight off much sooner. Finney was tough, and she was fighting back, so of course I can see where some people would say the fight should continue, but that's just not for me.

I noticed that Jordan Breen used a comparison to Boxing on the Sherdog radio show last night and basically said that it's not like she was taking brutal punishment for 30 minutes, so basically in essence it's not that bad and nobody should complain. Although I like Breen and typically agree with him, he is wrong on this. Any decent Boxing ref is not going to let a fighter continue to fight if they get knocked down 6 times between the first two rounds and look completely outclassed in every element of the punching exchanges. Also, needless to say, MMA utilizes 4 oz gloves and strikes can come from much more violent angles. I hate to have to remind everyone of what happened to Becky Zerlentes, and she was only fighting in an Amatuer fight while wearing headgear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clVmtqIdNKs

Brain damage is real, and it needs to be taken seriously.

logrus
06-28-2010, 03:20 AM
For sure, I know we see it, but off the top of my head I can't think of a fight where I felt like it was that uncompetitive and I literally felt like the ref was being negligent by not waving the fight off much sooner. Finney was tough, and she was fighting back, so of course I can see where some people would say the fight should continue, but that's just not for me.

I noticed that Jordan Breen used a comparison to Boxing on the Sherdog radio show last night and basically said that it's not like she was taking brutal punishment for 30 minutes, so basically in essence it's not that bad and nobody should complain. Although I like Breen and typically agree with him, he is wrong on this. Any decent Boxing ref is not going to let a fighter continue to fight if they get knocked down 6 times between the first two rounds and look completely outclassed in every element of the punching exchanges. Also, needless to say, MMA utilizes 4 oz gloves and strikes can come from much more violent angles. I hate to have to remind everyone of what happened to Becky Zerlentes, and she was only fighting in an Amatuer fight while wearing headgear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clVmtqIdNKs

Brain damage is real, and it needs to be taken seriously.

K, I remember a fight now keith jardine vs houston alexander. Houston got rocked early recovered, then manageed to knock jardine down numerous times.

Like I said it happens, the bad part is its a judgement call. So we will get fights like that (Cyborgs or Jardines) where you could argue it either way. But we are going to be opening the door for other terrible calls (Mac Danzing anyone?).

I just find it funny that from week to week we are either pissed at a ref for a late stop or an early stop where in both cases the fighters were still in control of their environment (somewhat lol)

An on the uncompetitive aspect of a fight, does that mean we can just stop a fight and justify it, (Gsp vs Hardy) in that fight Hardy was way out of his league to a point it wasnt even competitive.. ????

J.B.
06-28-2010, 03:50 AM
K, I remember a fight now keith jardine vs houston alexander. Houston got rocked early recovered, then manageed to knock jardine down numerous times.

Like I said it happens, the bad part is its a judgement call. So we will get fights like that (Cyborgs or Jardines) where you could argue it either way. But we are going to be opening the door for other terrible calls (Mac Danzing anyone?).

I just find it funny that from week to week we are either pissed at a ref for a late stop or an early stop where in both cases the fighters were still in control of their environment (somewhat lol)

An on the uncompetitive aspect of a fight, does that mean we can just stop a fight and justify it, (Gsp vs Hardy) in that fight Hardy was way out of his league to a point it wasnt even competitive.. ????

My point though is in relation to competitiveness and the damage which is being inflicted. So in respect to GSP vs Hardy, GSP was dominating him by out wrestling him, but Hardy made it a fight. Hardy fought out of the submission attempt and was never brutalized on the ground to the point where anybody felt like "Oh my God, stop this fight", which is what a lot of people were saying last night.

With Houston and Jardine, that entire fight only lasted 48 seconds. Getting rocked once and coming right back in under 30 seconds to win by TKO is completely different than Jan Finney getting pummeled for 7 minutes and offering nothing more than ONE solid right hand the entire time, and it barely even phased Cyborg.

Of course, that is the human element to the sport, but I think that it's rather sad that not only are refs who show such gross oversight to what is happening right in front of their face are allowed to ref, but also that there are fans who support it as well. There will always be early stoppages and late stoppages by design, but this is a case of gross negligence in my personal opinion.

Buzzard
06-28-2010, 04:05 AM
QR: If Jan Finney wanted it stopped, she could have tapped or verbally submitted.

J.B.
06-28-2010, 04:14 AM
QR: If Jan Finney wanted it stopped, she could have tapped or verbally submitted.

The point of the ref is to ensure the safety of the fighters, weather they want to quit or not.

MattHughesRocks
06-28-2010, 04:44 AM
No kidding. I could practically hear her screaming to the ref in her head " get that bitch off of me!!!:scared0011::cry: " but what mma fighter actually says that?

The point of the ref is to ensure the safety of the fighters, weather they want to quit or not.

J.B.
06-28-2010, 04:51 AM
No kidding. I could practically hear her screaming to the ref in her head " get that bitch off of me!!!:scared0011::cry: " but what mma fighter actually says that?

According to her website she wants to fight her again. :wacko:

http://janfinney.com/

Notice the irony of the Rocky theme playing as the background music on her website. She looked more like Apollo Creed against Ivan Drago. :laugh:

Okay, I'm not trying to be mean, because Jan Finney is clearly one tough individual and she showed some true grit, but that was horrible.

MattHughesRocks
06-28-2010, 05:05 AM
Maybe her pain tolerance is really high and it didn't hurt as bad as it looked? :blink:
Maybe she got knocked retarded and has no idea what she's saying? :blink:

Maybe she's just some wild & crazy girl? :blink:

God bless her.That's all I can say :blink:


According to her website she wants to fight her again. :wacko:

http://janfinney.com/

Notice the irony of the Rocky theme playing as the background music on her website. She looked more like Apollo Creed against Ivan Drago. :laugh:

Okay, I'm not trying to be mean, because Jan Finney is clearly one tough individual and she showed some true grit, but that was horrible.

J.B.
06-28-2010, 05:07 AM
Maybe she got knocked retarded and has no idea what she's saying? :blink:


I vote for this one :)

logrus
06-28-2010, 05:15 AM
My point though is in relation to competitiveness and the damage which is being inflicted. So in respect to GSP vs Hardy, GSP was dominating him by out wrestling him, but Hardy made it a fight. Hardy fought out of the submission attempt and was never brutalized on the ground to the point where anybody felt like "Oh my God, stop this fight", which is what a lot of people were saying last night.

With Houston and Jardine, that entire fight only lasted 48 seconds. Getting rocked once and coming right back in under 30 seconds to win by TKO is completely different than Jan Finney getting pummeled for 7 minutes and offering nothing more than ONE solid right hand the entire time, and it barely even phased Cyborg.

Of course, that is the human element to the sport, but I think that it's rather sad that not only are refs who show such gross oversight to what is happening right in front of their face are allowed to ref, but also that there are fans who support it as well. There will always be early stoppages and late stoppages by design, but this is a case of gross negligence in my personal opinion.

Thats my point though, Hardy was given the chance to fight out of 2 submissions, even though he was dominated 99.5% of the time. The ref didn't think "ohh hes going to suffer a broken arm or multiple tears I have to stop it".

The thing with Cyborg is everyone wanted the fight stopped sooner regardless of what Fin wanted, and what she was showing. She showed that she wanted to continue, she was making smart fighter decisions in there with def and Off, hell what would the headlines be if she would have KO'ed Cyborg? Would we be crying foul cause it wasnt stopped in round 1?

As for the Jardine fight, you wanted an example. That was a pretty good one on short notice if you ask me. An it does back up the argument. Even though the fight lasted 48 secs, what if it went into round two. Would fans be ticked off for JArdine, or would we all be glorifying him.. Jardine was knocked down and wobbled over 5 times in a short span with no offense or any real defense.

Really I think cause Fin was a girl we react differently then if it was a guy. Which is odd cause the Mythbusters proved girls handle pain a lot better then guys do... :unsure-1:

J.B.
06-28-2010, 05:54 AM
Thats my point though, Hardy was given the chance to fight out of 2 submissions, even though he was dominated 99.5% of the time. The ref didn't think "ohh hes going to suffer a broken arm or multiple tears I have to stop it".

The thing with Cyborg is everyone wanted the fight stopped sooner regardless of what Fin wanted, and what she was showing. She showed that she wanted to continue, she was making smart fighter decisions in there with def and Off, hell what would the headlines be if she would have KO'ed Cyborg? Would we be crying foul cause it wasnt stopped in round 1?

As for the Jardine fight, you wanted an example. That was a pretty good one on short notice if you ask me. An it does back up the argument. Even though the fight lasted 48 secs, what if it went into round two. Would fans be ticked off for JArdine, or would we all be glorifying him.. Jardine was knocked down and wobbled over 5 times in a short span with no offense or any real defense.

Really I think cause Fin was a girl we react differently then if it was a guy. Which is odd cause the Mythbusters proved girls handle pain a lot better then guys do... :unsure-1:

Broken limbs are nothing like broken orbital bones, cuts to the eyes, and brain damage. Although remember when Mir broke Sylvia's arm, and Tim wanted to keep fighting?

If by some one in a million chance the scenario you describe with Finney KO'ing Cyborg in round 2 were to have happened, you would still see me saying today that the fight should have been stopped in the first round. I give Finney props, but a beatdown is a beatdown. It has nothing to do with her being a woman, and everything to do with that being a horribly late stoppage.

Again, the Jardine and Alexander fight its a good example of a one sided fight, but not so much in the way of a fight that went on too long because that was a GOOD stoppage. Had it not been stopped, and Jardine came back and won, I would say the same thing that it should have been stopped earlier. The fight between Cyborg and Finney was over 7 times longer than the one between Jardine and Alexander but just as much of a one sided affair. Houston got rocked for a second, but it was only once and he than he laid a whoopin on Keith, all in under 1 minute.

logrus
06-28-2010, 07:31 AM
Broken limbs are nothing like broken orbital bones, cuts to the eyes, and brain damage. Although remember when Mir broke Sylvia's arm, and Tim wanted to keep fighting?

If by some one in a million chance the scenario you describe with Finney KO'ing Cyborg in round 2 were to have happened, you would still see me saying today that the fight should have been stopped in the first round. I give Finney props, but a beatdown is a beatdown. It has nothing to do with her being a woman, and everything to do with that being a horribly late stoppage.

Again, the Jardine and Alexander fight its a good example of a one sided fight, but not so much in the way of a fight that went on too long because that was a GOOD stoppage. Had it not been stopped, and Jardine came back and won, I would say the same thing that it should have been stopped earlier. The fight between Cyborg and Finney was over 7 times longer than the one between Jardine and Alexander but just as much of a one sided affair. Houston got rocked for a second, but it was only once and he than he laid a whoopin on Keith, all in under 1 minute.

I really don't know what to tell ya. It seems that there is always a fight or 2 every PPV that you can honestly question how it was stopped. There are also a lot of fights where guys really do take a good beating and are given plenty of chances to regroup.

Really Finney did everything a male fighter would do, went for the tie up, went for a single leg and dble leg after being rocked. I think part of the problem was Cyborg didnt really understand what to do. She would throw a couple cheap punches but not much else. With less then a min to go Cyborg could have unloaded and had the round stopped, she decided to throw 1 punch every 8secs til the round ended. She did land some good shots against Cyborg, but fell to the man beasts power.

Seems to me that it was similar to male fighters fights..

J.B.
06-28-2010, 08:17 AM
I really don't know what to tell ya. It seems that there is always a fight or 2 every PPV that you can honestly question how it was stopped. There are also a lot of fights where guys really do take a good beating and are given plenty of chances to regroup.

Really Finney did everything a male fighter would do, went for the tie up, went for a single leg and dble leg after being rocked. I think part of the problem was Cyborg didnt really understand what to do. She would throw a couple cheap punches but not much else. With less then a min to go Cyborg could have unloaded and had the round stopped, she decided to throw 1 punch every 8secs til the round ended. She did land some good shots against Cyborg, but fell to the man beasts power.

Seems to me that it was similar to male fighters fights..

I agree, it's always gonna be there, but there is slightly questionable and there is downright ridiculous. In my opinion this was a just bad case of delaying the inevitable, and thankfully it didn't turn out worse. Also, again, for me it has nothing to do with them being females, but I know a lot of people do see it that way, and from a marketability standpoint they are absolutely right. Nobody likes seeing girls get beat up like that on TV.

I watched the fight again, and I don't see it much differently. There is no question that Jan was full of heart and trying to fight, but that doesn't constitute intelligent or competitive to me. I counted 4 times she was dropped in the first round with hard shots that you could tell hurt her, and her flailing attempts to hug Cyborg's ankles are not legit takedown attempts or smart defense. When Cyborg was posturing over her and throwing punches a lot of the shots were being blocked, but a lot were still getting through and Jan just LOOKED beaten and physically spent. When Cyborg backed off she was sitting on her knees or sitting on her ass and just trying to breath and get her hair out her face and then Cyborg was right back on her. I can see the first round going up until about the last minute, but by that point going into the turtle position over and OVER again is not signs of a competitive or intelligent fight in my opinion. It's almost embarrassing.

You know me though, I completely understand that it is what it is, I just thought this case was ridiculous, and it certainly has fueled entertaining discussion. There are other "experts" who are writing articles that say I am completely wrong and this ref should be a role-model for referees, so that's how it goes. :laugh:

Buzzard
06-28-2010, 12:12 PM
The point of the ref is to ensure the safety of the fighters, weather they want to quit or not.

While I can agree with your statement, Jan held the cards and could have folded anytime she wished. I have seen more brutal beat-downs which were left it continue. It seems that you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Jan gained my respect.


PS, I believe the word you wanted was "whether". This coming from someone who hasn't had a good argument, er debate, in a couple of weeks. If I had only seen this mistake once, I would have let it slide. But 2 or more I felt the need to call it out.

Just wait, within the next week I'll have a new call out. Rest assured, I won't call it out tomorrow. :)

J.B.
06-28-2010, 12:51 PM
While I can agree with your statement, Jan held the cards and could have folded anytime she wished. I have seen more brutal beat-downs which were left it continue. It seems that you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Jan gained my respect.


PS, I believe the word you wanted was "whether". This coming from someone who hasn't had a good argument, er debate, in a couple of weeks. If I had only seen this mistake once, I would have let it slide. But 2 or more I felt the need to call it out.

Just wait, within the next week I'll have a new call out. Rest assured, I won't call it out tomorrow. :)

What does Jan having the ability to quit have to do with it being a bad decision by the ref? If you wanna say that you have watched fights that are more brutal that have been left to continue, that is totally fair, but please list them so as context may be provided. It may be a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, but leaning with the side of caution in an effort to protect the safety of the fighters is always better than stopping a fight too late.

Also, if I constantly typed like an illiterate fool, your grammatical assistance would be appreciated. Since that's not the case, let's stick to the discussion at hand. :wink:

J.B.
06-28-2010, 01:01 PM
Well at least Jake Rossen is one analyst who sees it the way I do :laugh:


Was referee Kim Winslow in the wrong?

Winslow, the sport’s only female referee at the televised level, drew sharp words for her officiating of the “Cyborg” Santos/Jan Finney fight. Santos scored four knockdowns in the bout, most of which she followed up with a barrage of punches from the top. Winslow was complacent until a knee to the body dropped Finney in the second.

Finney defended well, covering her face and deflecting most of the major blows on the ground. But a fighter getting repeatedly knocked down is a fairly obvious indication of scrambled brain function: even a sport as cruel as boxing often prohibits a fighter from continuing after three knockdowns in a round. While Finney may have seemed game, what amounted to a 9-7 round (Santos was deducted a point for a foul) should’ve been cause for Winslow to step in. If not, her corner should have. Taking a beating is admirable, but it’s one seriously misguided compliment.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Strikeforce-Postmortem-The-Fall-of-Fedor-Shamrock-Le-More-25353

J.B.
06-28-2010, 01:16 PM
Oh yeah, and another point that comes to mind from this is the effect it could have on Jan Finney's fights in the future.

Now, the refs who have seen that fight and end up reffing one of Jan's future fights may allow her to take even more unnecessary punishment because they think she can handle it.

I'm gonna call it "The Fujita Syndrome".

logrus
06-28-2010, 03:41 PM
I agree, it's always gonna be there, but there is slightly questionable and there is downright ridiculous. In my opinion this was a just bad case of delaying the inevitable, and thankfully it didn't turn out worse. Also, again, for me it has nothing to do with them being females, but I know a lot of people do see it that way, and from a marketability standpoint they are absolutely right. Nobody likes seeing girls get beat up like that on TV.

I watched the fight again, and I don't see it much differently. There is no question that Jan was full of heart and trying to fight, but that doesn't constitute intelligent or competitive to me. I counted 4 times she was dropped in the first round with hard shots that you could tell hurt her, and her flailing attempts to hug Cyborg's ankles are not legit takedown attempts or smart defense. When Cyborg was posturing over her and throwing punches a lot of the shots were being blocked, but a lot were still getting through and Jan just LOOKED beaten and physically spent. When Cyborg backed off she was sitting on her knees or sitting on her ass and just trying to breath and get her hair out her face and then Cyborg was right back on her. I can see the first round going up until about the last minute, but by that point going into the turtle position over and OVER again is not signs of a competitive or intelligent fight in my opinion. It's almost embarrassing.

You know me though, I completely understand that it is what it is, I just thought this case was ridiculous, and it certainly has fueled entertaining discussion. There are other "experts" who are writing articles that say I am completely wrong and this ref should be a role-model for referees, so that's how it goes. :laugh:

Actually the worst part of that round was probably under a minute. I think thats when one would think the Ref would step in, but really Cyborg kinda pulled back at least thats what I thought. I think if this was two guys it would have either went to round 2, or the dominant guy would have just ended it.

Other then you it just seems like from what people say and what I have read that this was more an issue cause it was two females fighting. Besides its one ref in the cage, not 4 refs blowing calls during the World Cup. They have it tough.

Ehh the Ref is still fairly new, it aint like Steve Mazzagatti and one of his whatever calls. An that dude has been refing for a long while... Really though UFC this weekend, I am sure we will be ripping a ref a new a hole anyways lol....

J.B.
06-28-2010, 04:14 PM
Actually the worst part of that round was probably under a minute. I think thats when one would think the Ref would step in, but really Cyborg kinda pulled back at least thats what I thought. I think if this was two guys it would have either went to round 2, or the dominant guy would have just ended it.

Other then you it just seems like from what people say and what I have read that this was more an issue cause it was two females fighting. Besides its one ref in the cage, not 4 refs blowing calls during the World Cup. They have it tough.

Ehh the Ref is still fairly new, it aint like Steve Mazzagatti and one of his whatever calls. An that dude has been refing for a long while... Really though UFC this weekend, I am sure we will be ripping a ref a new a hole anyways lol....

The fact that it is two women no doubt plays a factor in how many people view it. I will admit, I'm not big on female fighting, and I never have been. However, the Phoenix Mercury of WNBA won the Championship last season and I don't care about that either. :laugh:

I also agree, it was the last minute or so of the first round where I was just like, "okay this is just ridiculous".

Now, I also should stress that I don't think this ref needs to be lambasted too much more about it. It happened, and it's over now. However, I think it's important for fans to be aware of the officials, and what their history is, and that goes for judges too. I have called out many refs over the years as a fight fan, and I've seen some refs who made horrible calls in one fight call it perfect in another fight. There absolutely is a human element that will always exist, but in a sport that can come to such an abrupt end at any time (which is unlike any other sport I can think of off the top of my head, besides Boxing) I do think there is a too much of a gray area when it comes to what the criteria is for stopping a fight, and even for enforcing some the other rules. What was your take on the point deduction for Cyborg? I felt that was a bit premature, but obviously she did commit the foul so the ref is within the rules to deduct the point.

I guess another part of it is that sometimes I get the feeling that ref's are too involved in making the fight go one way or another to appease fans. Like if the fans are booing, fights get stood up much faster, or in this case when the ref was actually asking Cyborg if she wanted Finney to stand up. Also, going back to the rabbit punch, it was strikingly similar to what Lesnar was doing to Mir in the first fight when Mazzagatti deducted a point from Lesnar. You had one fighter beating on the other one after violently knocking their opponent down, and then the opponent basically turtles up and offers nothing in the way of intelligent defense. How is a fighter supposed to throw anything but one or two shots at a time when the only opening the opponent is giving is them is the back of their head? I think the ref probably felt like in the back of her mind that on her first time reffing a major televised fight she would be better off as being the ref who let the fight go on (which will always appease some of the more hardcore fans) than to be the one who stopped the fight too early. Or maybe she is some sort of feminist trying to show how tough women are, I don't know. :laugh:

The only other recent fight where I had another serious problem with a ref was in the Miguel Cotto/Yuri Foreman fight, and that fight was actually somewhat competitive until Foreman's knee gave out on him. However, Arthur Mecante kept letting Foreman continue to fight on one leg against the Puerto Rican machine that is Cotto, even after a towel was thrown in from Foreman's corner. I'm not sure if you saw it, but it was a joke. The fight was literally stopped and Cotto was starting to celebrate when Mecante just said "nope, fights not over". Then he asked Foreman if he wanted to continue to fight, and what do you think he said? Of course! That didn't last much longer, needless to say. :laugh:

VCURamFan
06-28-2010, 09:33 PM
Scott Coker has just announced Cyborg's next opponent:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/385922/Cyborg-Alien_medium.jpg

Neezar
06-29-2010, 04:29 AM
Was referee Kim Winslow in the wrong?

Winslow, the sport’s only female referee at the televised level, drew sharp words for her officiating of the “Cyborg” Santos/Jan Finney fight. Santos scored four knockdowns in the bout, most of which she followed up with a barrage of punches from the top. Winslow was complacent until a knee to the body dropped Finney in the second.

Finney defended well, covering her face and deflecting most of the major blows on the ground. But a fighter getting repeatedly knocked down is a fairly obvious indication of scrambled brain function: even a sport as cruel as boxing often prohibits a fighter from continuing after three knockdowns in a round. While Finney may have seemed game, what amounted to a 9-7 round (Santos was deducted a point for a foul) should’ve been cause for Winslow to step in. If not, her corner should have. Taking a beating is admirable, but it’s one seriously misguided compliment.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Strikeforce-Postmortem-The-Fall-of-Fedor-Shamrock-Le-More-25353 (http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Strikeforce-Postmortem-The-Fall-of-Fedor-Shamrock-Le-More-25353)



:laugh:

J.B.
06-29-2010, 04:41 AM
:laugh:

Yeah, typical jab at the Sweet Science, but at least Rossen knew the fight should have been stopped. :)

Also, the 3 knockdown rule he mentions is not something that is always in effect. Yes, people die in Boxing, and it happens in MMA too. :sad:

Rev
06-29-2010, 05:03 PM
To say that because a fighter wants to continue make it ok is just plain Goofy. Mir SNAPPED Tim's arm and he wanted to fight on. "Sometimes a fighter's heart is to big for the fighters butt." - Jimbo Stevens(my first boxing coach)