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View Full Version : Video of Dennis Hallman saying 50% of fighters take steroids


Twinsmama
06-11-2010, 06:38 PM
http://www.mmatko.com/dennis-hallman-claims-at-least-half-of-mma-fighters-take-steroids/#more-10356

atomdanger
06-11-2010, 06:58 PM
http://www.mmatko.com/dennis-hallman-claims-at-least-half-of-mma-fighters-take-steroids/#more-10356

I have met Dennis more than once, seems like a nice enough guy,
but he has been CAUGHT using steroids, and seems to have a little bit of an attitude maybe.

flo
06-11-2010, 07:44 PM
Just like with the allegations Jose Canseco made about baseball, have to say I'm not surprised.

Chuck
06-11-2010, 07:48 PM
He seems like an idiot to me.

J.B.
06-11-2010, 08:18 PM
Just like with the allegations Jose Canseco made about baseball, have to say I'm not surprised.

Jose wasn't lying

logrus
06-11-2010, 08:46 PM
Jose wasn't lying

Nope, but everyone thought he was lol.

When you think about it, steroids has a few uses so saying 50% isn't so crazy. You can use it to heal faster, use it to shred faster, use it to improve your overall performance.

J.B.
06-11-2010, 10:00 PM
Nope, but everyone thought he was lol.

When you think about it, steroids has a few uses so saying 50% isn't so crazy. You can use it to heal faster, use it to shred faster, use it to improve your overall performance.

Absolutely. Steroids actually do a lot of good things. I just don't think we should let guys have free reign to take anything they want when we are talking about organized sports. Professional Bodybuilding is one thing, because the rate of guys juicing in that is well over 50%, and the culture of that competition accepts it, unlike other professional sports/competitions.

flo
06-12-2010, 02:04 AM
I didn't think Canseco was lying; anyone that watched Mcgwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc. knew that steroid use in MLB was rampant. Heck, even our own Booney used steroids!!!

logrus
06-12-2010, 02:21 AM
I think if your not going to let people take PED's then MMA needs to get very very strict on the stance.

To be honest I don't think Dana would ever get strict on steroid use. Theres more money in it for the UFC if guys fly under the radar. Ant he UFC doesnt have to drop a large pool of cash on special testing.

VCURamFan
06-12-2010, 07:25 PM
Ken Shamrock admits to using steroids:

http://www.mmamania.com/2010/6/12/1514494/ufc-hall-of-famer-ken-shamrock
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/477137/shamrock2_medium.jpg

"Absolutely."
That was Ken Shamrock's answer to HDNet's Mike Straka's question of whether the UFC Hall of Famer ever used steroids.
It should come as no surprise, considering "The (former) World's Most Dangerous Man" was popped by the California State Athletic Commission (CSAC) for steroids after the then 45-year-old picked up a win (his first in five years) over Ross Clifton in 2009.
At the time, he blamed it on "over-the-counter products."
He sang a way different tune last night:
"They want home runs, baby. They want people jacking them out of the park. But then when they find out about it they want to stick their heads in the sand and say, 'How bad, that was stupid, you're crazy, don't let him in the hall of fame.' It's like let's point the finger... Nobody wants to take responsibility, but everyone wants to see it... It's like going to the grocery store. It's that easy. It's that simple."
Chicks dig the long ball, eh Ken?
Apparently Shamrock graduated from the same performance enhancing drugs use school as our dear friends Barry, Mark and Jose.

Irish Pride
06-12-2010, 07:50 PM
I still wanna see Hallman vs Hughes Number 3

logrus
06-12-2010, 08:22 PM
Ken is right, at the time baseball was a dead sport after the hold out, if not for Mark and Sammie dueling for Home-run glory it would have taken baseball a long time to get back into what it once was before the hold out.

Not only that but people dont want to see Big Country type fighters, they just want to see Gsp type looking fighters, even Dana has mocked the physique of Nelsons.

Knock outs vs submissions, vs stalls to the decision.

J.B.
06-12-2010, 09:21 PM
Ken is right, at the time baseball was a dead sport after the hold out, if not for Mark and Sammie dueling for Home-run glory it would have taken baseball a long time to get back into what it once was before the hold out.

Not only that but people dont want to see Big Country type fighters, they just want to see Gsp type looking fighters, even Dana has mocked the physique of Nelsons.

Knock outs vs submissions, vs stalls to the decision.

Yeah, Sammy and Mark may have made baseball exciting for that season, but the fallout over steroids has hurt the game WAY more than the hold-out did.

You also take it to an extreme and say people don't wanna see fighters like Roy Nelson, and you suggest that fighters on roids are more likely to finish fights. Not all fighters who look like GSP are on roids, and not all roid-freaks can finish fights.

If GSP is the roid-freak everybody makes him out to be, by your logic, he should be knocking guys heads into the third row instead of being "boring" like all these fight fans seem to think lately.

J.B.
06-12-2010, 09:26 PM
I think if your not going to let people take PED's then MMA needs to get very very strict on the stance.

To be honest I don't think Dana would ever get strict on steroid use. Theres more money in it for the UFC if guys fly under the radar. Ant he UFC doesnt have to drop a large pool of cash on special testing.

You may be right, but does that mean we should just accept it?

I don't care how corrupt the commissions or Zuffa wants to be about it, fans should care enough to step up and say something. People can be seriously hurt or killed in there and the safety of the fighters needs to trump the profits.

logrus
06-12-2010, 10:57 PM
Yeah, Sammy and Mark may have made baseball exciting for that season, but the fallout over steroids has hurt the game WAY more than the hold-out did.

You also take it to an extreme and say people don't wanna see fighters like Roy Nelson, and you suggest that fighters on roids are more likely to finish fights. Not all fighters who look like GSP are on roids, and not all roid-freaks can finish fights.

If GSP is the roid-freak everybody makes him out to be, by your logic, he should be knocking guys heads into the third row instead of being "boring" like all these fight fans seem to think lately.

The big steroid bust has done nothing to hurt the sport. Its just as popular now as it was when all this stuff hit the fan. Last I checked the Yankees were still very popular. You talk about fans, but the fans wont turn their backs on teams or fighters because of a stint with roids. Do you think fans are abandoning the Yankees, or the Texans. You think there is a major boycott nor for the sport or the teams, nope.

As for Gsp, like I said Gsp's loss to Serra changed how he fought.

J.B.
06-13-2010, 12:27 AM
The big steroid bust has done nothing to hurt the sport. Its just as popular now as it was when all this stuff hit the fan. Last I checked the Yankees were still very popular. You talk about fans, but the fans wont turn their backs on teams or fighters because of a stint with roids. Do you think fans are abandoning the Yankees, or the Texans. You think there is a major boycott nor for the sport or the teams, nope.

As for Gsp, like I said Gsp's loss to Serra changed how he fought.

So what if the Yankees or the Texans are popular? That's not the point.

In the sports world, Baseball has gotten a black eye from the controversy surrounding steroids, and nobody can deny that. Seriously, what sport do you think it was that made Congress get involved and actually made the athletes testify? There is STILL a chance that some of those guys can be charged with perjury. Not only has it hurt the sport from a standpoint of how it is viewed from the outsiders, but it has also hurt the sport internally. One of the biggest debates in the sport today is what to do about the guys in that era of the 90's and how it should be viewed historically. It's become such a big debate that at times it was overshadowing everything else. Even last season when Manny Rameriez got popped, or when A-Rod's name came up on the list of names in the Mitchell Report, the steroids cloud came back and it was all that was talked about for weeks. There doesn't need to a "major boycott" for it to have hurt the sport in the eyes of the fans. To say it's had no negative impact of the sport of baseball is beyond ridiculous.

Fans wont turn their back on TEAMS, because Teams are just a logo, a jersey, and a legacy, but they absolutely will turn their back on the individual athletes. Manny Rameriez and A-Rod took a big hit in popularity, and so have athletes outside of Baseball, like Shane Mosley for instance.

Chuck
06-13-2010, 09:26 PM
.....even Dana has mocked the physique of Nelsons.
Nelsons....???? Plural??? You mean theirs TWO of them in there??? No wonder he's so fat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If GSP is the roid-freak everybody makes him out to be, by your logic, he should be knocking guys heads into the third row instead of being "boring" like all these fight fans seem to think lately.
Brilliant point.

Do you think fans are abandoning the Yankees, or the Texans.
Wait just a flipping minute!!!!! The Texans have fans????????????????? :scared0015:

Fans wont turn their back on TEAMS, because Teams are just a logo, a jersey, and a legacy, but they absolutely will turn their back on the individual athletes. Manny Rameriez and A-Rod took a big hit in popularity, and so have athletes outside of Baseball, like Shane Mosley for instance.

Again... brilliant point.

logrus
06-13-2010, 10:42 PM
So what if the Yankees or the Texans are popular? That's not the point.

In the sports world, Baseball has gotten a black eye from the controversy surrounding steroids, and nobody can deny that. Seriously, what sport do you think it was that made Congress get involved and actually made the athletes testify? There is STILL a chance that some of those guys can be charged with perjury. Not only has it hurt the sport from a standpoint of how it is viewed from the outsiders, but it has also hurt the sport internally. One of the biggest debates in the sport today is what to do about the guys in that era of the 90's and how it should be viewed historically. It's become such a big debate that at times it was overshadowing everything else. Even last season when Manny Rameriez got popped, or when A-Rod's name came up on the list of names in the Mitchell Report, the steroids cloud came back and it was all that was talked about for weeks. There doesn't need to a "major boycott" for it to have hurt the sport in the eyes of the fans. To say it's had no negative impact of the sport of baseball is beyond ridiculous.

Fans wont turn their back on TEAMS, because Teams are just a logo, a jersey, and a legacy, but they absolutely will turn their back on the individual athletes. Manny Rameriez and A-Rod took a big hit in popularity, and so have athletes outside of Baseball, like Shane Mosley for instance.

Fans forgive and fans forget. Not only that but old fans go and new fans are born. A Rod is just as popular now as when his steroid scandal broke. Not only that but come Yankee talk his ass gets kissed and hyped up. Fans didn't give up on the Yankees and look how many of those guys were under the steroid knife.

You mention a black eye to baseball, but really what proof of its impact has it played on the sport. Fans still went to games, turned on the tv to watch them. Records are still broken, champs are still champs and Hall of Famers who admitted are still in the Hall of Fame. We have seen 0 backlash from it. An to be honest I don't think we ever will. Its not fair to them to have there records questioned when others haven't

Cheating individually has been around in baseball since the beginning, Pud Galvin admitted to taking animal testosterone back in the 1870's. Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth were a couple others named when it came to taking animal testosterone. Although those last too I read in a book in the mid 90's.

Anyways Users will be forgiven, and steroids in baseball was as common as peanuts and cracker jacks at a game, Mmmm and hot dogs are...

J.B.
06-13-2010, 11:00 PM
Fans forgive and fans forget. Not only that but old fans go and new fans are born. A Rod is just as popular now as when his steroid scandal broke. Not only that but come Yankee talk his ass gets kissed and hyped up. Fans didn't give up on the Yankees and look how many of those guys were under the steroid knife.

You mention a black eye to baseball, but really what proof of its impact has it played on the sport. Fans still went to games, turned on the tv to watch them. Records are still broken, champs are still champs and Hall of Famers who admitted are still in the Hall of Fame. We have seen 0 backlash from it. An to be honest I don't think we ever will. Its not fair to them to have there records questioned when others haven't

Cheating individually has been around in baseball since the beginning, Pud Galvin admitted to taking animal testosterone back in the 1870's. Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth were a couple others named when it came to taking animal testosterone. Although those last too I read in a book in the mid 90's.

Anyways Users will be forgiven, and steroids in baseball was as common as peanuts and cracker jacks at a game, Mmmm and hot dogs are...


You keep mentioning the Yankees, but the Yankees are also one of the biggest franchises in ALL OF SPORTS. Besides, it's not as if you can use attendance as litmus test for how people feel about a certain athlete. Remember, most people are fans of the TEAM, then the PLAYERS, in that order.

The backlash is there in the print, and it will be there FOREVER. Yeah, there are reports of guys doing lots of different crap in the early days of the game, and that was always debated by historians, but it's a different era in professional sports and designer drugs today. The 90's and 2000's will always be known as the "Steroid Era" and the majority of fans and the press don't like it, myself included. I also don't think we can go back and change the record books either, whats done is done and that's what it is. However it is still a raging debate.

If you think the users will be forgiven, I think your being pretty optimistic at this point. Most of the Baseball Writers and Historians (guys who get to vote for the Hall of Fame) seem to think otherwise. Baseball is not always forgiving, just ask Pete Rose. I will tell you right now, Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire are not getting in the Hall anytime soon.

Bonnie
06-14-2010, 12:14 AM
You keep mentioning the Yankees, but the Yankees are also one of the biggest franchises in ALL OF SPORTS. Besides, it's not as if you can use attendance as litmus test for how people feel about a certain athlete. Remember, most people are fans of the TEAM, then the PLAYERS, in that order.

The backlash is there in the print, and it will be there FOREVER. Yeah, there are reports of guys doing lots of different crap in the early days of the game, and that was always debated by historians, but it's a different era in professional sports and designer drugs today. The 90's and 2000's will always be known as the "Steroid Era" and the majority of fans and the press don't like it, myself included. I also don't think we can go back and change the record books either, whats done is done and that's what it is. However it is still a raging debate.

If you think the users will be forgiven, I think your being pretty optimistic at this point. Most of the Baseball Writers and Historians (guys who get to vote for the Hall of Fame) seem to think otherwise. Baseball is not always forgiving, just ask Pete Rose. I will tell you right now, Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire are not getting in the Hall anytime soon.

Why can't they go back and change the record books?! Leave their pictures/names in there and put a big red "X" through them to indicate their cheater status. I don't feel like they should be inducted into the Hall of Fame; start a cheaters' Hall of Fame and induct them in that.

What about the greats who came before them whose records they were "supposedly" breaking? Isn't something being taken from them (Roger Maris, etc...) and from the sport by these cheaters. To me, you might as well say they stole that record. It's just like in a trial when the judge instructs the jury of the rules....if they feel like a witness lied in part of their testimony, the jury can discount all of their testimony--even though some of it might have been the truth. That's how this should be handled. Whatever (if any) honest moments these guys had on the field should go down the toilet right along with any ill-gotten gains they received using drugs while engaging in their sport. They did this to themselves. I mean, think about it, a game or bout could have been won or lost, a playoff, a world series or super bowl, a championship belt and title, because a guy cheated. They taint not only their records, but the recordbooks of the greats who came before them, and ultimately the sport.

Bonnie
06-14-2010, 12:55 AM
Absolutely. Steroids actually do a lot of good things. I just don't think we should let guys have free reign to take anything they want when we are talking about organized sports. Professional Bodybuilding is one thing, because the rate of guys juicing in that is well over 50%, and the culture of that competition accepts it, unlike other professional sports/competitions.

It's crazy! Even with all the medical information available nowadays about the dangers of steroid use, they still feel like it's "worth it". :blink: I watched a documentary on bodybuilding and steroid use. It showed older guys who had competed and used for years and the ones who were still alive to tell about it--what a devastating effect it's had on their health and lives. And then it showed the young guys (some from here, some from England) wanting to bulk up either for personal reasons (they're small and want to be bigger) or for the sport of bodybuilding. They don't care about the dangers; they're just interested in the results and if they have to use steroids to get 'em, they're going to use them. It was really frightening to hear and see that attitude in these young men. They're willing to sacrifice their health and possibly their life just to have big bodies. :wacko:

J.B.
06-14-2010, 12:57 AM
Why can't they go back and change the record books?! Leave their pictures in their and put a big red "X" through them to indicate their cheater status. I don't feel like they should ever be inducted into the Hall of Fame; start a cheaters Hall of Fame and induct them in that.

What about the greats who came before them whose records they were "supposedly" breaking? Isn't something being taken from them (Roger Maris, etc...) and from the sport by these cheaters. To me, you might as well say they stole that record. It's just like in a trial when the judge instructs the jury of the rules....if they feel like a witness lied in part of their testimony, the jury can discount all of their testimony--even though some of it might have been the truth. That's how this should be handled. Whatever (if any) honest moments these guys had on the field should go down the toilet right along with any ill-gotten gains they received using drugs while engaging in their sport. They did this to themselves. I mean, think about it, a game or bout could have been won or lost, a playoff, a world series or super bowl, a championship belt and title, because a guy cheated. They taint not only their records, but the recordbooks of the greats who came before them, and ultimately the sport.

Bonnie, I hope you realize that we are actually in total agreement as far as not letting them into the Hall of Fame, and in the sense that they did in fact knowingly cheat to achieve some of those records.

However...

The reason I don't think you can remove them from the record books is something quite different. The record books are about numbers, not context. The context is up for history to decide and ultimately judge. If we get into trying to change the numbers it opens up a whole sea of debate and controversy. What guys were actually on roids? What numbers were affected? How many of those pitchers were juicing when they were pitching to Bonds? Etc...etc...etc...

As noted by Logrus in his previous post, and something I also eluded to, is that cheating has been going on since the beginning. We know a bunch of guys like Mantle and Ruth messed around with drugs, and did a lot of other stuff too, and you won't be seeing their names stricken from the books ever, in any way/shape/form. Those pioneers are too important to Baseball's history and it's roots.

Guys in the modern era are being held to different standards, and the entire culture is different. I am a part of the crowd who think that Cooperstown should have a small section that details the controversy surrounding steroids in the sport where known offenders can be documented. A "Hall of Shame" if you will. As for full induction of those players like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa into the actual Hall of Fame...I say fat chance, but it's not up to me because I don't get a vote.

J.B.
06-14-2010, 01:06 AM
It's crazy! Even with all the medical information available nowadays about the dangers of steroid use, they still feel like it's "worth it". :blink: I watched a documentary on bodybuilding and steroid use. It showed older guys who had competed and used for years and the ones who were still alive to tell about it--what a devastating effect it's had on their health and lives. And then it showed the young guys (some from here, some from England) wanting to bulk up either for personal reasons (they're small and want to be bigger) or for the sport of bodybuilding. They don't care about the dangers; they're just interested in the results and if they have to use steroids to get 'em, they're going to use them. It was really frightening to hear and see that attitude in these young men. They're willing to sacrifice their health and possibly their life just to have big bodies. :wacko:

My brother was a wrestler and a bodybuilder for a long time and he used to use that crap. We never talk about it much, because he is older and we didn't live together at the time, but he came back to stay at my parents house and they found needles and stuff. I don't remember the exact name of the stuff he was using, but let's just say he is only 5'8 and he was benching about 530 pounds around that time. :laugh:

logrus
06-14-2010, 01:09 AM
You keep mentioning the Yankees, but the Yankees are also one of the biggest franchises in ALL OF SPORTS. Besides, it's not as if you can use attendance as litmus test for how people feel about a certain athlete. Remember, most people are fans of the TEAM, then the PLAYERS, in that order.

The backlash is there in the print, and it will be there FOREVER. Yeah, there are reports of guys doing lots of different crap in the early days of the game, and that was always debated by historians, but it's a different era in professional sports and designer drugs today. The 90's and 2000's will always be known as the "Steroid Era" and the majority of fans and the press don't like it, myself included. I also don't think we can go back and change the record books either, whats done is done and that's what it is. However it is still a raging debate.

If you think the users will be forgiven, I think your being pretty optimistic at this point. Most of the Baseball Writers and Historians (guys who get to vote for the Hall of Fame) seem to think otherwise. Baseball is not always forgiving, just ask Pete Rose. I will tell you right now, Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire are not getting in the Hall anytime soon.

I keep mentioning the Yankees because a good number of the people in the Mitchell report were Yankees during the 2001-2004 seasons. An its not people who are easily forgotten, but huge limelight players.

You can not prove that a person busted of roids is any less popular then I can use ticket sales to prove otherwise. Although A-Rod jerseys along with Jeter jerseys are still top baseball selling jerseys.

The Hall of Fame voting is an odd one at that. People who got in before more deserving people is very common. But do I think Bonds, Mcquire or Sosa will get in anytime soon, most likely not. Will people like A Rod and Clemens get in, Most definitely. An way before them..

Bonnie
06-14-2010, 01:20 AM
Bonnie, I hope you realize that we are actually in total agreement as far as not letting them into the Hall of Fame, and in the sense that they did in fact knowingly cheat to achieve some of those records.

However...

The reason I don't think you can remove them from the record books is something quite different. The record books are about numbers, not context. The context is up for history to decide and ultimately judge. If we get into trying to change the numbers it opens up a whole sea of debate and controversy. What guys were actually on roids? What numbers were affected? How many of those pitchers were juicing when they were pitching to Bonds? Etc...etc...etc...

As noted by Logrus in his previous post, and something I also eluded to, is that cheating has been going on since the beginning. We know a bunch of guys like Mantle and Ruth messed around with drugs, and did a lot of other stuff too, and you won't be seeing their names stricken from the books ever, in any way/shape/form. Those pioneers are too important to Baseball's history and it's roots.

Guys in the modern era are being held to different standards, and the entire culture is different. I am a part of the crowd who think that Cooperstown should have a small section that details the controversy surrounding steroids in the sport where known offenders can be documented. A "Hall of Shame" if you will. As for full induction of those players like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa into the actual Hall of Fame...I say fat chance, but it's not up to me because I don't get a vote.

I know we're on the same page, JB. :cool: Ever since it came out about Mcquire and Sosa (and now Bonds), I've felt that they shouldn't get to be in the Hall of Fame. I knew you'd have some "rational" reasoning :rolleyes: as to "why" the records couldn't be changed, but I had to vent. :laugh: It burns me up that those numbers will stand. And I agree with you about Cooperstown and including this controversy. Because however much they want to ignore/hide it, it's now a part of the game's history to the shame of all those who chose to win by cheating.

logrus
06-14-2010, 01:32 AM
Why can't they go back and change the record books?! Leave their pictures/names in there and put a big red "X" through them to indicate their cheater status. I don't feel like they should be inducted into the Hall of Fame; start a cheaters' Hall of Fame and induct them in that.

What about the greats who came before them whose records they were "supposedly" breaking? Isn't something being taken from them (Roger Maris, etc...) and from the sport by these cheaters. To me, you might as well say they stole that record. It's just like in a trial when the judge instructs the jury of the rules....if they feel like a witness lied in part of their testimony, the jury can discount all of their testimony--even though some of it might have been the truth. That's how this should be handled. Whatever (if any) honest moments these guys had on the field should go down the toilet right along with any ill-gotten gains they received using drugs while engaging in their sport. They did this to themselves. I mean, think about it, a game or bout could have been won or lost, a playoff, a world series or super bowl, a championship belt and title, because a guy cheated. They taint not only their records, but the recordbooks of the greats who came before them, and ultimately the sport.

The sad thing is cheating and baseball have gone hand and hand since the beginning. Players were actually injecting things into their systems back in the 1870's. Mantle was said to have gotten messed up on a concoction back in the early 60's.

Players from the mid 90's had also commented on how they took PED, these were Mvp's, Cy Young winners, and WW champs. To think how many of those people in the hall of fame could have possibly used some form of a PED. In a way its sad that such a crackdown on the sport didnt happen til 2008 for things done in 03.

Sad that the Homerun record was broke by a guy on thew juice, which was set by a guy on the juice which could have been made by the guy who was on the juice

Bonnie
06-14-2010, 01:33 AM
My brother was a wrestler and a bodybuilder for a long time and he used to use that crap. We never talk about it much, because he is older and we didn't live together at the time, but he came back to stay at my parents house and they found needles and stuff. I don't remember the exact name of the stuff he was using, but let's just say he is only 5'8 and he was benching about 530 pounds around that time. :laugh:

:scared0015:

I hope he's okay healthwise (no long-term effects from whatever he was using).

I don't know, I guess I don't get the whole "big muscles", at least bodybuilding "big", thing. I like a well-toned body on a guy, but not that over-blown Popeye look everywhere. :laugh: A lot of the guys in mma like Rich Franklin and Matt and some others look nicely muscled but still "normal". To me that's a nice healthy look. :happy0159:

J.B.
06-14-2010, 01:33 AM
I keep mentioning the Yankees because a good number of the people in the Mitchell report were Yankees during the 2001-2004 seasons. An its not people who are easily forgotten, but huge limelight players.

You can not prove that a person busted of roids is any less popular then I can use ticket sales to prove otherwise. Although A-Rod jerseys along with Jeter jerseys are still top baseball selling jerseys.

The Hall of Fame voting is an odd one at that. People who got in before more deserving people is very common. But do I think Bonds, Mcquire or Sosa will get in anytime soon, most likely not. Will people like A Rod and Clemens get in, Most definitely. An way before them..

The point is that you using one of the biggest name brands in the sport. The Yankees could lose millions of fans and still be one of the best selling products in all of professional sports!!! :laugh:

I'm not sure what A-Rod's jersey sales have looked like since his name came out last year, but why would you mention Jeter? Derek Jeter hasn't been wrapped up in that to this point, unless there was something I missed?

I don't really need to prove that any of the confirmed cheaters are less popular, it's pretty much widely known that it tarnishes a persons career. That doesn't mean a guy can't make a mistake and serve a punishment for it, but it needs to be put into context in each case. Alex Rodriguez has time left to do that, and he is still consistently one of the best players in the game, but do you think anybody really cares about David Ortiz anymore now that he sucks and people know that the whole time he was actually good that Big Pappi was a Big Cheater? :laugh: Or in MMA, how many times can Josh Barnett get busted before we say WTF?

A-Rod will likely get in way down the road if he keeps his nose clean, and I'm not sure what will happen with Clemens. But Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds? Nope. Especially not Bonds, he treated the media like crap and the writers hate him.

J.B.
06-14-2010, 01:38 AM
Sad that the Homerun record was broke by a guy on thew juice, which was set by a guy on the juice which could have been made by the guy who was on the juice

So you think Hank Aaron was juicing?

Bonnie
06-14-2010, 01:41 AM
The sad thing is cheating and baseball have gone hand and hand since the beginning. Players were actually injecting things into their systems back in the 1870's. Mantle was said to have gotten messed up on a concoction back in the early 60's.

Players from the mid 90's had also commented on how they took PED, these were Mvp's, Cy Young winners, and WW champs. To think how many of those people in the hall of fame could have possibly used some form of a PED. In a way its sad that such a crackdown on the sport didnt happen til 2008 for things done in 03.

Sad that the Homerun record was broke by a guy on thew juice, which was set by a guy on the juice which could have been made by the guy who was on the juice

Yeah. :sad: You know what's really sad, we try to teach kids that "cheaters never win", but then you have them looking up to these sports figures who did win by cheating. :wink:

Bonnie
06-14-2010, 01:43 AM
So you think Hank Aaron was juicing?

Please don't tell me Hank cheated? :cry: I thought he was talking about Mcquire.

J.B.
06-14-2010, 01:46 AM
:scared0015:

I hope he's okay healthwise (no long-term effects from whatever he was using).

I don't know, I guess I don't get the whole "big muscles", at least bodybuilding "big", thing. I like a well-toned body on a guy, but not that over-blown Popeye look everywhere. :laugh: A lot of the guys in mma like Rich Franklin and Matt and some others look nicely muscled but still "normal". To me that's a nice healthy look. :happy0159:

The only problems he had came from all the heavy lifting in the gym. He spent so much time there that after years of doing that, along with working construction, the bones in his wrists and hands were pretty messed up.

He got off the junk and slimmed down a bunch though, and actually got really into judo for a while. Abusing that junk is no good, that should only be used under doctor supervision for medical purposes, not for vanity or sport.

J.B.
06-14-2010, 01:47 AM
Please don't tell me Hank cheated? :cry: I thought he was talking about Mcquire.

Well that's what I am asking Logrus...:laugh:

I absolutely do not think that.

Bonnie
06-14-2010, 01:52 AM
The only problems he had came from all the heavy lifting in the gym. He spent so much time there that after years of doing that, along with working construction, the bones in his wrists and hands were pretty messed up.

He got off the junk and slimmed down a bunch though, and actually got really into judo for a while. Abusing that junk is no good, that should only be used under doctor supervision for medical purposes, not for vanity or sport.

I can't imagine the strain on the body lifting that kind of weight repetitively for any great length of time.

Well that's what I am asking Logrus...:laugh:

I absolutely do not think that.

That's what I wanted to hear! :)

J.B.
06-14-2010, 02:01 AM
I can't imagine the strain on the body lifting that kind of weight repetitively for any great length of time.



That's what I wanted to hear! :)

Short list of the "steroid era" guys, in my opinion, who I would be saddened to find out they cheated...

Frank Thomas
Ken Griffy Jr.
Curt Schilling
Derek Jeter
Albert Pujols
Jim Thome

Although, sadly, there is a list of 103 names out there from that Mitchell Report, and when more of those names leak, it's gonna hit home for a lot of fans.

logrus
06-14-2010, 04:10 AM
The point is that you using one of the biggest name brands in the sport. The Yankees could lose millions of fans and still be one of the best selling products in all of professional sports!!! :laugh:

I'm not sure what A-Rod's jersey sales have looked like since his name came out last year, but why would you mention Jeter? Derek Jeter hasn't been wrapped up in that to this point, unless there was something I missed?

I don't really need to prove that any of the confirmed cheaters are less popular, it's pretty much widely known that it tarnishes a persons career. That doesn't mean a guy can't make a mistake and serve a punishment for it, but it needs to be put into context in each case. Alex Rodriguez has time left to do that, and he is still consistently one of the best players in the game, but do you think anybody really cares about David Ortiz anymore now that he sucks and people know that the whole time he was actually good that Big Pappi was a Big Cheater? :laugh: Or in MMA, how many times can Josh Barnett get busted before we say WTF?

A-Rod will likely get in way down the road if he keeps his nose clean, and I'm not sure what will happen with Clemens. But Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds? Nope. Especially not Bonds, he treated the media like crap and the writers hate him.

So you think Hank Aaron was juicing?

Geez, what if I said Red Sox or Giants, what would have done lol.

Jeter was #1 and A-Rod was #2 for the 08 09 season. Well thats what I read at least. It will be the same in 10

A Rod has been on the stuff early in his career. I wouldn't doubt it if he got off it just in time to avoid detection. His numbers seem to reflect that, At least at my glance. Besides his HR , RBIs and H have all gone down since 08 and they keep goin down. An considering the height of his numbers came from that era, you cant possibly consider him a chance.

I dont know bout Hank, he had a reason too. But really never heard anything about him doing it. Though I did read Ruth took some stuff and got ill from it lol same with Mantle.

Josh B is a perfect example of a person addicted to roids, its hard to quit that stuff because numbers drop, looks drop and most users run for the stuff.

Baseball will always get a black eye, steroid era, negro era, black sox era, dead ball era. Gambling, corked bats, tared bats, imaginary drop third strike. Hes safe even though he tagged first base 3 secs later then the ball.

J.B.
06-14-2010, 04:25 AM
You are right, there is always something, just like every sport, but it certainly don't do the sport any good.

Red Sox and Giants are big franchises (Red Sox quite a bit more), but not like the Yankees. Not many teams in all of sports have their following. It's a thing of sheer volume. It don't mean people don't frown on what Alex did because he's still got fans and the Yankees are still selling out. Some people will still be rocking the Ben Rothlisburger jerseys in Pittsburgh this year too, but there are a lot who won't be. More than anything, I think what bothers people the most is the guys who have blatantly lied about it, then end up getting caught red handed, such as A-Rod, or Bonds, or Evander Holyfield for instance.

I think in the end for baseball it does sting a little more because of how much attention the entire Balco Investigation and Mitchell Report received. There are still over 100 names out there that are going to come to light sooner or later, and it will just keep rehashing the discussion. I think they should just release the names and get it over with.

logrus
06-14-2010, 05:14 AM
You are right, there is always something, just like every sport, but it certainly don't do the sport any good.

Red Sox and Giants are big franchises (Red Sox quite a bit more), but not like the Yankees. Not many teams in all of sports have their following. It's a thing of sheer volume. It don't mean people don't frown on what Alex did because he's still got fans and the Yankees are still selling out. Some people will still be rocking the Ben Rothlisburger jerseys in Pittsburgh this year too, but there are a lot who won't be. More than anything, I think what bothers people the most is the guys who have blatantly lied about it, then end up getting caught red handed, such as A-Rod, or Bonds, or Evander Holyfield for instance.

I think in the end for baseball it does sting a little more because of how much attention the entire Balco Investigation and Mitchell Report received. There are still over 100 names out there that are going to come to light sooner or later, and it will just keep rehashing the discussion. I think they should just release the names and get it over with.

In a way it kinda makes me wonder about all these other records in baseball over the years. Where they by hard work, talent and a bit of luck. Or had man made products help them out. You know like Cal Ripkens games played record or the guy who set it Lou Gehrig. I mean if guys in those days were injecting anything into themselves. Then whos to say that record then or now is clean. Things like Henderson playing for almost 30 yrs..

I dunno, I guess seeing it a good portion of my life in person and on tv. I guess these days I just question everything done in the sports world. I saw kids back in my HS doing it, An I see kids doing it today. I know guys who placed in naturals and they were on the stuff.

J.B.
06-14-2010, 05:35 AM
In a way it kinda makes me wonder about all these other records in baseball over the years. Where they by hard work, talent and a bit of luck. Or had man made products help them out. You know like Cal Ripkens games played record or the guy who set it Lou Gehrig. I mean if guys in those days were injecting anything into themselves. Then whos to say that record then or now is clean. Things like Henderson playing for almost 30 yrs..

I dunno, I guess seeing it a good portion of my life in person and on tv. I guess these days I just question everything done in the sports world. I saw kids back in my HS doing it, An I see kids doing it today. I know guys who placed in naturals and they were on the stuff.

It does make you wonder, and thats why it's been such a pain in the butt.

Basically, you can google just about any big name baseball player from the last 50 years and the word "steroids" after their name and you will get hits to articles 99% of the time. A lot of times it's just "did this player use?" or stuff like that, but it's as if EVERYBODY is under the cloud of suspicion these days.

If it were just a few random nobodies getting caught, it wouldn't be so bad, but it's been some really big names, not just in baseball but in other sports too.

VCURamFan
07-14-2010, 09:13 PM
Now Shamrock's continuing the discussion:


When Ken Shamrock on Mike Straka’s Fighting Words show on the HDNet channel a few weeks ago and admitted that he had used steroids before, his critics used the admission as ammunition to try to destroy the credibility of his career. Those who don’t care about the issue of performance-enhancing drugs in sports largely yawned and moved on. However, there was a lot of blowback from people in and out of the industry towards Ken about the comments he made (http://www.fightopinion.com/2010/06/14/ken-shamrock-steroids/).

MIKE STRAKA: “What did the fans want, though? They want bigger and better.”
KEN SHAMROCK: “They want homeruns, baby. They want people jacking them out of the park but then when they find out about it they want to stick their hand in the sand, ‘oh how bad, that was stupid, why’d you do that? You’re crazy. Don’t let them in the Hall of Fame!’ It’s like, let’s point the finger because if we don’t point the finger at somebody else, we have to point it at ourselves because… we knew. So, nobody wants to takes responsibility, but everybody wants to see it. And that’s the way it’s always going to be and it always will be. Someone is going to take the fall, period.”
MIKE STRAKA: “You think steroids should be legal?”
KEN SHAMROCK: “Absolutely. Absolutely.”

Facing tremendous heat for his remarks, as truthful as they were inartful, Shamrock clarified his stance during an interview with The Fight Nerd last week (http://www.fightopinion.com/2010/07/07/ken-shamrock-steroids-revised-remarks/). Shamrock said that his words were taken out of context (how?) and that he thinks steroid usage should be legal amongst fighters in Mixed Martial Arts. He also addressed criticism he received for fans thinking that he was blaming them for why guys use steroids in sports.

“You know, I’m sorry if that’s the way it came off to point fingers at fans because that’s not what I was doing. What I was doing was make an awareness of people understanding their sports. When you get into a situation like baseball or basketball or football, boxing, and you see a guy come out of college and you see how much he grows and how big he gets and I’m not saying the average fan, you know, I’m not talking about the person who sits home and watches the game because they really, they’re just watching it and being entertained. I’m talking about from the media, I’m talking about from the sportswriters, I’m talking about from the hardcore fans who hear all the rumbles behind the scenes, who know all the stuff that’s going on, and they stick their heads in the stand like and then they’re shocked when this stuff comes out. I’m not saying that it’s not the athlete’s responsibility at all, no way. But what I’m saying is when something like that comes out and then you have people going, ‘oh my God, I can’t believe he was doing that!’… that to me is wrong because to me most likely and I’m not saying in all cases, but most likely people know what’s going on.

“Yeah, I mean I’m not saying it’s the responsibility of the fans because it’s not, I mean they’re watching the game and they’re having fun and they’re all enjoying it and there’s absolutely no responsibi8lity on them. The athlete and the reporters, they don’t even have a responsibility on this at all. But by no means do when somebody comes up dirty, you have an idea about what’s going on and you never step up and said anything do you jump on the bandwagon and be a part of that program. Because that’s what happens is guys who don’t want to take a stand on it because they’re afraid that they might piss somebody off but then once somebody else takes a stand on it and goes, you know what’s that’s wrong, we’re going to test, they start testing, they catch a few people, they start going after them, then these other people who knew all along what was going on start jumping on that side because now it’s politically correct.

“I do not and absolutely do not believe that steroids should be legal. My intention on that whole conversation was I thought that steroids should be CONTROLLED. CONTROLLED, not legalized, because I said even in the statement that if you allow it to be legal people are going to get bigger, faster, stronger, and somebody’s going to get hurt.

“[Athletic commissions] test levels in the body. There’s levels that are extremely high, that are very unsafe for an athlete and there’s levels in the body that are extremely safe and that help recovery in injuries. So, if you’re going to go ahead and test the levels in an athlete’s body, then you can go ahead and test the levels in a athlete’s body which is safe, which is good for recovery, which is good for their health, which is good for their living. They’re not going to be coming out of the sport all beat up and not being able to walk or not being able to think, you know they’re going to be able to recover and be healthy, be rejuvenated, a thing called age-management. Which is a big thing in society right now, which helps your test levels in your body and your hCs levels in your body and your HGH levels in your body to come back up to a healthy level so your body can recover, you can feel alive again, your body feels good. These are things that are safe, medically proven that are safe to help you have a healthier and a better life after the age of 50 or 60.”

There’s two parts of Shamrock’s argument that should be focused on – his accusations against the media for gutless and his idea that steroids should be allowed to be used, yet somehow not be legal.

On the first matter, Ken is right. MMA media writers hate covering scandals because they are afraid that they will lose paying gigs (think: $50-100 article type deals) and because it’s just too much heat for not enough of a reward in return. I saw this first-hand with the yakuza scandal that destroyed PRIDE. Nobody wanted to touch the story because they saw no benefit in doing so until the promotion actually started to collapse and then the bandwagon jumping started on reporting the story, acting as if everyone knew what was going on all along.

Ken’s argument here about the media is that they know what’s going on with PEDs in MMA, who’s using, and who’s not, and they aren’t talking because they afraid that they will lose sources for future news stories and could lose paydays with outlets that demand political correctness. He’s exactly right on all accounts, but Ken’s problem is that he has done a terrible job of directly conveying that message. So, instead of getting his point across, he’s having to deal with putting out fire after fire with fans, writers, and those inside the business. He’s become a pariah.

And yet, he’s right about media writers knowing some fighters who are users and then feigning shock when someone gets busted. I’ve seen several articles where writers have noted publicly that they’ve had fighters tell them who’s using or not using and how to get around drug tests but yet no names are ever mentioned and then once somebody gets caught, the writers speak in a way in which they assume their readers knew all along who they were talking about.

Is the media complicit in the way fans view the athletes in Mixed Martial Arts who use or don’t use steroids and growth hormone? I’d say yes, to a degree.

In the larger context of what Ken Shamrock is arguing about, do people care about the issue of steroids? As I noted in previous articles, fans do care about the issue of drug usage but only when it involves someone that they hate and can use the issue as a crutch to whack said athlete over and over and over. (Think: Alex Rodriguez. Rarely do you hear about David Ortiz and steroids, despite the fact that Ortiz recently won the 2010 State Farm Home Run Derby in Anaheim, California.)

Whenever I bring up the issue of steroids in MMA, Most of my readers say their eyes glaze over, ignore what’s discussed, or just don’t care. Those who do care feel very passionate about it, but right now they are in the minority. People just want to be entertained.

So, what about allowing the usage of steroids amongst fighters on a ‘controlled’ level as Ken suggested? It’s hard for a state or Federal body of government to allow something to be tested for and yet have it be illegal on the books. You have to legalize steroids before you can allow such usage to go on in a ‘controlled’ manner. The argument of ‘controlling’ the usage of steroids and growth hormone sounds libertarian enough, but the problem is that this is fighting. It’s a violent, dangerous sport. By inviting such steroid usage to be 100% controlled, you are forcing those who aren’t on the sauce to get on it. Unless you want to create PED and non-PED divisions in MMA, it’s tough to see why one should be for the usage of steroids in a controlled manner.

What Ken Shamrock did with his admission of using steroids is stir the pot. He was honest about the topic. It does raise the stakes overall for those of us who are anti-doping in our beliefs and challenges us to come up with an argument that doesn’t sound too moralistic or preachy. After all, fans watch fights because it’s fighting. If they want morality, they’ll go to Church every Sunday. And yet, doping is a very important issue in sports because the health and well-being of so many athletes is on the line and in the combat sports world, the difference between those who are using and those who aren’t using can literally influence life or death situations in and out of the ring. One look at the professional wrestling industry can give you all the ample evidence you need on the impact of rampant drug usage.

adamt
07-14-2010, 11:57 PM
Nope, but everyone thought he was lol.

When you think about it, steroids has a few uses so saying 50% isn't so crazy. You can use it to heal faster, use it to shred faster, use it to improve your overall performance.



i have used steroids...... to induce labor in cattle, so maybe roy nelsons could benefit from it in that way too

i have also used them.... for diarhea in hogs, so maybe guys like trigg, kos, serra, rothwell would find it useful for their diarhea of the mouth

adamt
07-14-2010, 11:59 PM
It does make you wonder, and thats why it's been such a pain in the butt.

Basically, you can google just about any big name baseball player from the last 50 years and the word "steroids" after their name and you will get hits to articles 99% of the time. A lot of times it's just "did this player use?" or stuff like that, but it's as if EVERYBODY is under the cloud of suspicion these days.

If it were just a few random nobodies getting caught, it wouldn't be so bad, but it's been some really big names, not just in baseball but in other sports too.



i get it, pain in the butt, cuz thats where they shoot up right :laugh: