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Tyburn
06-02-2010, 11:43 PM
Sooooo...Israel has this thing going against Palastine, specifically, the Gaza Strip since Israel pulled back, which ammounts to an Embargo.

When Israel pulled out, and let the Palestinians fend for themselves, they ellected Hamas, which the World refused to work with despite them being democratically ellected. Following this, in the second stretch of Palastine a militant group called Fatah appeared...the two hate each other, and both hate Israel...both smuggled in guns and began a bombardment campaign of Israel.

Last Year Israel snapped and actually launched an attack of its own against Palastine, since then the Embargo, which stops trade between Palestine and the outside world, has been implace. Several Islamic Countries have up until this week supported Israel on this. One is Turkey, which decided several years ago NOT to become a fully fledged Islamic State, and the other is Egypt, who has enforced the Embargo on the South boarder of Palestine.

Now...a few days ago, some idiots from Britian and Turkey decided that they wanted to protest this Embargo, they got hold of ships, filled them with aid parcels and headed out by sea, to Isreal, with the intent of giving the aid to Palestine.

Naturally, off the coast, the ships were stopped, boarded...and then a fight broke out between the demonstraters who claim they are victims...and the Israeli Special Forces...which cant honnestly be trusted either...19 protestors were killed, several Israeli Marines were hurt, and the whole lot of them are now in prison at Bethsheba I believe.

The Israelis claim that they were boarding to make sure that the aid ships firstly did not breach the embargo, but mostly because its through trade that Palestine are being armed. They claim, and there was, till recently, Youtube footage showing that the protestors attacked the Commandos first....Naturally, claiming to be delivering humanitarian aid...the protestors claim Israel just stompped all over them.

Most of the world is inclined to believe the protestors, because Israel does have a habit of taking the law into her own hands (not suprising when she learns from Countries like the United States, and United Kingdom, who equally set themselves above and beyond Internationa Law) but her smushing of Palestine last year (even though justified) was seen as excessive...and people still havent forgiven her for her attack on Hezbollah of Lebanon, a while back...and the United Kingdom is furious that she dared to use stolen and fake passports to set up British Citizens in the Assassination of some Hamas Commander in Dubai earlier this year.

The United States has said, the affair was regrettable...But Turkey has recinded its approval of Israel...and more importantly, Dear Hosni Mubarack, an Egyptian I actually have quite a lot of time for, is absolutely livid...He has decided that he will no longer help Israel, and has opened up free trade and the boarder of South Palestine...he is too angry at present to care that this openness of trade with lead to munnitions being passed back into Palestine, and used once more against Israel.

I actually think the protesters did it deliberately...I think they deliberately provoked Israel...I dont think they should ever have tried to break through the embargo...what did they expect the Isreali Forces to do?? and it only takes one or two plants in an otherwise peaceful demonstration to provoke a justified bloodbath. Thankfully the youtube clip...I havent looked to see if its still there...did seem to show that the Israeli Forces were defending themselves, rather then attacking first...unless you think that boarding is attacking I suppose...and yes there is the dispute that the flotilla had NOT made it into Israeli Waters before the boarding began...but they were clear on their intent. I actually think they got what they deserved....I know people who have tried to help the Palestinians...and if they wish to do that on a humanitarian basis, then fair enough, through the Proper Channels...but to launch an aid fleet in definace of a country at war...well...lets just say they are lucky there was only 19 dead

J.B.
06-02-2010, 11:50 PM
I actually think the protesters did it deliberately...I think they deliberately provoked Israel...I dont think they should ever have tried to break through the embargo...what did they expect the Isreali Forces to do?? and it only takes one or two plants in an otherwise peaceful demonstration to provoke a justified bloodbath. Thankfully the youtube clip...I havent looked to see if its still there...did seem to show that the Israeli Forces were defending themselves, rather then attacking first...unless you think that boarding is attacking I suppose...and yes there is the dispute that the flotilla had NOT made it into Israeli Waters before the boarding began...but they were clear on their intent. I actually think they got what they deserved....I know people who have tried to help the Palestinians...and if they wish to do that on a humanitarian basis, then fair enough, through the Proper Channels...but to launch an aid fleet in definace of a country at war...well...lets just say they are lucky there was only 19 dead

I agree. I think it's unfortunate that 19 people are dead, but they had no business being there and they knew it.

Tyburn
06-02-2010, 11:59 PM
I agree. I think it's unfortunate that 19 people are dead, but they had no business being there and they knew it.

I'm also enraged by the way its being reported.... "Massicre on the Med" for example as one respectable British tabloid put it....I am NOT against aid for Palestinian people...but you just cant drive a ship through an embargo...aid or not...I mean the fact this isnt supported by a major aid agency...we arent talking about Red Cross here...these people should NEVER have approched Israel...and she might have used excessive force...but they shouldnt have been there...its as simple as that...and now they've gone and caused a major international scene...and its gone and upset some of the most pacfistic Islamic communities on the planet...its NOT what Israel needs...when she is already getting criticism for trying to open up a settlement in East Jerusalem...it makes me fume :angry::laugh:

How come its okay for Palestine to constantly bombard Israel...but its not alright for Israel to maintain a blockade of a known Terrorist Government??? Explain that to me...because I just dont understand...the laugh of it is...they do nothing but scream at her...and YES, sometimes she does naughty things...but I dont remember ANYONE giving her any praise when she voluntarily pulled out of Palestine in the first place a year or two ago...people seem to think that Palestine has the right to exist outside of Israeli occupation...thats a myth...it does so, because Israel, selflessly, removed herself...and the reason those palestinians need aid is because now their Government, cant look after them...no...coz Israel did that...its like...they were fighting so long for independance...when Israel turned round and said "fine, have it then" they cant organise a piss up in a brewry!!!

AMJ
06-03-2010, 01:52 AM
The humanatarians left in daylight around the middle of the afternoon, and would have reached their destination in daylight in early morning. Israel chose to raid during the night, in international waters, something that no-one expected. What was the need for raiding at this time in international waters, they could have easily done this in a much more effective and peaceful manner if they wanted to scope out the ship.

Israel has a proven track record of using excessive force against civilians which you mentioned and intercepting aid, then allowing only some of it through. Hence why most aid agencies try to avoid providing aid through Israel. Even the UN has said that Israel only allows a quarter of the aid that needs to get to Gaza. The reason why people are trying to assist Palistinians, they are living like caged animals as a result of this imposed blockade.

Israel may have claimed that they were attacked by sticks and knives but boarding a ship in the night in international waters by commando forces would result in what type of response? Possibily, self-defence?

They backed this up by showing a snippet of a video purporting to show some guys waving batons around and attacking Israeli Commando Forces? LOL! Trained forces with machine guns boarding a ship illegally vs some battons and knives? C'mon use some common sense here.

It's clear the video has not been seen in context, and some reports from the people onboard suggest that the firing started first. ALL the reports so far from people on board from all six ships say that the Israelis were extremely heavyhanded in their approach. In this context, you can understand if some people were not too happy to see the Israelis. The only real proven facts we have so far is that the raid took place at night, in international waters, and it resulted in 19 people dead. Not looking too good there for Israel at all.

Finally, all the people onboard the ships have been arrested and no doubt their cameras confiscated. Many have not even been freed yet by Israel. A very obvious explanation for the lack of camera footage.


I really think Israel dropped the ball on this one, from academics to politicians to governmental agencies, it's a common consensus that Israel was in the wrong here.

flo
06-03-2010, 02:07 AM
I agree. I think it's unfortunate that 19 people are dead, but they had no business being there and they knew it.
Word.

Go Israelis.

NateR
06-03-2010, 02:08 AM
I really think Israel dropped the ball on this one, from academics to politicians to governmental agencies, it's a common consensus that Israel was in the wrong here.

100% Disagree. Your opinion only reveals your ignorance of the overall situation over there in Israel.

flo
06-03-2010, 02:11 AM
Israel has a proven track record of using excessive force against civilians which you mentioned and intercepting aid, then allowing only some of it through. Hence why most aid agencies try to avoid providing aid through Israel. Even the UN has said that Israel only allows a quarter of the aid that needs to get to Gaza.



That's a lie. Where on earth did you come up with that? As if any sane person gives credence to what the effing UN says.

The reason why people are trying to assist Palistinians, they are living like caged animals as a result of this imposed blockade.

And you know this how exactly? Instead of putting the blame on the Jews, how 'bout you ask why Egypt and Jordan don't take in some of the Palestinians, or "caged animals" as you refer to them?

flo
06-03-2010, 02:14 AM
I have friends who are often affected by the daily lobbing of bombs and missles into Israel from the "caged animals".

But let's not let facts get in the way of anti-semitism.

NateR
06-03-2010, 02:21 AM
But let's not let facts get in the way of anti-semitism.

Exactly, the Nazis would be so proud of the job that the US and UK media does of vilifying the Israelis.

I've talked to people who have actually lived in Israel and the basic rule of thumb is that whatever you hear reported on CNN, MSNBC, BBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, the New York Times, etc., then usually the exact opposite is true.

Buzzard
06-03-2010, 04:48 AM
The humanatarians left in daylight around the middle of the afternoon, and would have reached their destination in daylight in early morning. Israel chose to raid during the night, in international waters, something that no-one expected. What was the need for raiding at this time in international waters, they could have easily done this in a much more effective and peaceful manner if they wanted to scope out the ship.

Israel has a proven track record of using excessive force against civilians which you mentioned and intercepting aid, then allowing only some of it through. Hence why most aid agencies try to avoid providing aid through Israel. Even the UN has said that Israel only allows a quarter of the aid that needs to get to Gaza. The reason why people are trying to assist Palistinians, they are living like caged animals as a result of this imposed blockade.

Israel may have claimed that they were attacked by sticks and knives but boarding a ship in the night in international waters by commando forces would result in what type of response? Possibily, self-defence?

They backed this up by showing a snippet of a video purporting to show some guys waving batons around and attacking Israeli Commando Forces? LOL! Trained forces with machine guns boarding a ship illegally vs some battons and knives? C'mon use some common sense here.

It's clear the video has not been seen in context, and some reports from the people onboard suggest that the firing started first. ALL the reports so far from people on board from all six ships say that the Israelis were extremely heavyhanded in their approach. In this context, you can understand if some people were not too happy to see the Israelis. The only real proven facts we have so far is that the raid took place at night, in international waters, and it resulted in 19 people dead. Not looking too good there for Israel at all.

Finally, all the people onboard the ships have been arrested and no doubt their cameras confiscated. Many have not even been freed yet by Israel. A very obvious explanation for the lack of camera footage.


I really think Israel dropped the ball on this one, from academics to politicians to governmental agencies, it's a common consensus that Israel was in the wrong here.

I pretty much agree with you. Israel attacked a ship in international waters, basically declaring war. You can be certain if anyone did this to a U.S. flagged ship in international waters, they would be dealing with repercussions.

100% Disagree. Your opinion only reveals your ignorance of the overall situation over there in Israel.

I disagree with your opinion. I had a Palestinian friend/co-worker who told me some stories about living over there. That's not to say that I am an authority on the situation over there, but that I have heard first hand opposing viewpoints. The attack on the ship in international waters was an act of war.

What is going on over there is FUBAR and SNAFU combined.

J.B.
06-03-2010, 04:56 AM
had a Palestinian friend/co-worker who told me some stories about living over there.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/Zhusuke/CoolStoryBro.jpg

Play The Man
06-03-2010, 09:38 AM
The humanatarians left in daylight around the middle of the afternoon, and would have reached their destination in daylight in early morning. Israel chose to raid during the night, in international waters, something that no-one expected. What was the need for raiding at this time in international waters, they could have easily done this in a much more effective and peaceful manner if they wanted to scope out the ship.

Israel has a proven track record of using excessive force against civilians which you mentioned and intercepting aid, then allowing only some of it through. Hence why most aid agencies try to avoid providing aid through Israel. Even the UN has said that Israel only allows a quarter of the aid that needs to get to Gaza. The reason why people are trying to assist Palistinians, they are living like caged animals as a result of this imposed blockade.

Israel may have claimed that they were attacked by sticks and knives but boarding a ship in the night in international waters by commando forces would result in what type of response? Possibily, self-defence?

They backed this up by showing a snippet of a video purporting to show some guys waving batons around and attacking Israeli Commando Forces? LOL! Trained forces with machine guns boarding a ship illegally vs some battons and knives? C'mon use some common sense here.

It's clear the video has not been seen in context, and some reports from the people onboard suggest that the firing started first. ALL the reports so far from people on board from all six ships say that the Israelis were extremely heavyhanded in their approach. In this context, you can understand if some people were not too happy to see the Israelis. The only real proven facts we have so far is that the raid took place at night, in international waters, and it resulted in 19 people dead. Not looking too good there for Israel at all.

Finally, all the people onboard the ships have been arrested and no doubt their cameras confiscated. Many have not even been freed yet by Israel. A very obvious explanation for the lack of camera footage.


I really think Israel dropped the ball on this one, from academics to politicians to governmental agencies, it's a common consensus that Israel was in the wrong here.

I disagree.

First, a correction of your "proven facts": 9 people were killed rather than 19.

These people were not "humanitarians". It has come out that the group is linked to the "Millennium bomber" who tried to sneak across the U.S./Canadian border just before the Millennium celebration, in order to bomb the L.A. airport.

The ship was warned to turn back. The raid in the middle of the night was a surprise tactic to minimize resistance. Notice that the helicopter lowered the commandos next to the wheelhouse so they could quickly take control of the ship. The commandos did not have machine guns. They had paintball guns with a sidearm as backup. If the commandos had meant to ambush and kill the people on the ship, they would have had assault rifles aimed as they were boarding the ship and I would bet every "humanitarian" on deck would have had a precise "double-tap" through their forehead. If Israel meant to kill the people on that ship, they could simple have torpedoed it. The evidence would be miles beneath the sea. Video evidence is available which shows that before the first commando had reached the deck, the "humanitarians" had grabbed the rope and pulled it to make the commando fall; he was subsequently beaten and stabbed and thrown over the rail to a lower deck. Since the event occurred, a search of the ship has revealed numerous weapons. Video clips show them throwing firebombs and stun grenades.

Video of the "humanitarians" prior to the event show them making wills and pledging to be "martyrs".

One video shows them chanting "Khaibar" (or "Khaybar'). This is significant because it refers to a battle on the Arabian peninsula where Muhammad and the practitioners of the "Religion of Peace" attacked and laid seige to a prosperous Jewish town. This was an unprovoked attack. The Jews were defeated. Muhammad claimed one of the enslaved Jewish women as one of his wives. Some town members were allowed to live and keep their property - if they paid 50% of their crops. Muslims subsequently reneged on this extortion and the Jews were killed or expelled. Why would peaceful "humanitarians" be chanting the name of a battle in which Jews were killed, enslaved, extorted and ultimately expelled?

The "aid" consisted of supplies which are already available in Gaza. Subsequently, Israel has inspected the supplies and attempted to deliver them. They have been refused. If the residents of Gaza are in dire need of these supplies, why would they be refused when Israel attempted to deliver them?

The commandos had to fight for their lives. If they would have been captured the "humanitarians" would have held them hostage and then made snuff films of them beheading the commandos to cries of "Allahu Akhbar!"

As for consensus, Vice President Biden came out today defending the right of Israel to protect herself in this situation.

This is a link to a video which shows: Israeli naval officers warning the ship via radio, "humanitarians" chanting "Khaibar", "humanitarians" admitting they hope for confrontation and "martyrdom", video of the commandos being lynched, video of knives and other weapons used by the "humanitarians".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kus12PL8htQ&feature=player_embedded

Tyburn
06-03-2010, 11:56 AM
1)The humanatarians left in daylight around the middle of the afternoon, and would have reached their destination in daylight in early morning.

2) Israel chose to raid during the night, in international waters, something that no-one expected.

3) What was the need for raiding at this time in international waters, they could have easily done this in a much more effective and peaceful manner if they wanted to scope out the ship.

4) Israel has a proven track record of using excessive force against civilians which you mentioned and intercepting aid, then allowing only some of it through. Hence why most aid agencies try to avoid providing aid through Israel. Even the UN has said that Israel only allows a quarter of the aid that needs to get to Gaza.

5) The reason why people are trying to assist Palistinians, they are living like caged animals as a result of this imposed blockade.

6) Israel may have claimed that they were attacked by sticks and knives but boarding a ship in the night in international waters by commando forces would result in what type of response? Possibily, self-defence?

7) They backed this up by showing a snippet of a video purporting to show some guys waving batons around and attacking Israeli Commando Forces? LOL! Trained forces with machine guns boarding a ship illegally vs some battons and knives? C'mon use some common sense here.

It's clear the video has not been seen in context, and some reports from the people onboard suggest that the firing started first. ALL the reports so far from people on board from all six ships say that the Israelis were extremely heavyhanded in their approach. In this context, you can understand if some people were not too happy to see the Israelis. The only real proven facts we have so far is that the raid took place at night, in international waters, and it resulted in 19 people dead. Not looking too good there for Israel at all.

8) Finally, all the people onboard the ships have been arrested and no doubt their cameras confiscated. Many have not even been freed yet by Israel. A very obvious explanation for the lack of camera footage.


I really think Israel dropped the ball on this one, from academics to politicians to governmental agencies, it's a common consensus that Israel was in the wrong here.

1) please tell me what internationally recognised Humanitarian aid agency they were part of. If you are at war, you dont take a bunch of civilians at their word. How do you know what they were delivering...they were hardly the Red Cross.

2) You do whats in your best interest. I personally think Israel wanted to stop the ship from entering its waters and going anywhere near Palestine. I think it probably went in at night to give itself the advantage, and because there will be less press coverage in night then day. Supposing, the Israeli Forces had boarded, and not been attacked...they would probably just have turned the ship away

3) Israel looks up to its main supporters, who have held a much higher disregard for putting International Law against their own prospects. They are learning by OUR example. We, and I mean particularly, The United Kingdom, and The United States are quick to break International Law if it is in our interest to do so...we equally love to brand any less powerful nation, as Rogues when they do the same. IF Israel is acting naughty in this manner, we only have ourselves to blame....If there was a Civil War going on in the United States, and an bunch of nobodies made it clear they would be taking aid to some Confederacy...do you think Your own Government would have waited for this "aid" ship to dock... Dont fool yourself....Your Nation has more of a Pre-Emptive ideology when it comes to defence then anyone else...and this is what Israel was doing....defending herself.

4) Yes, Israel is Paranoid...but then she is small and surrounded by Countries that hate her. She can be forgiven for being sensative and over reactional. and Yes those other aid agencies do right...they know Israel is sensative, and they know better then to antagonise her, she hasnt got time for small talk towards well meaning, but foolish people. I am sure there were a lot of those people who really were peacefully trying to help...but the organisers sure werent as dumb...and it only takes a few over zelous idiots to give any armed force an excuse...if someone points a gun at you...you dont make any sudden movements, or else you will end up shot.

5) its called Seige Warfare. Thats the whole point of what Israel is trying to do...and the United Nations itself doesnt accept Hamas, noone does. So they are basically starving the country until one of two things happen. The Hamas leadership collapses...or, the people have enough and revolt. Israel isnt being mean for the sake of it, she is in a state of war. This is a know warfare tactic, and her embargo is part supported by the United Nations, and other neighbouring countries, because the Hamas leadership arent interested in feeding the palestinians anyway...the leadership only want military aid.

6) they knew Israel would boared them. They knew Israel had a blockade...their very presence in approaching Palestine was a threatening attack. Israel isnt known for being passive, WTF did they expect her to do?? did they think she was joking when she said NO AID TO PALESTINE??? Then attacking those Commandos make a second act of warfare, to which they maybe over reacted in protecting themselves...but if you play with fire, you can expect to get burned. I have no sympathy.

7) Common sense, says you DONT float aid to an enemy in defiance of a nearby state and expect to be treated as anything but Traitors. an Embargo, is an Embargo...it means NO. When Israel says No...she means it in the same way as if the UK or US said NO. She very much regards herself as a super power, and she very much believes that like the other super powers she is above the law, and WE have taught her that, by our own example. Like I said...they are lucky they werent ALL Killed. These Israeli Special Forces are NOT NICE, they dont appreciate being taken lightly.

8) Israel will free them as soon as they have finished processing who they are. But I hate to say it...if some group had tried to arm, or deliberatley gone against a known and accepted embargo of my enemy...I'd be putting them on trial..I really would.

rearnakedchoke
06-03-2010, 02:04 PM
right or wrong, no one will say anything to israel ... i think israel takes advantage of this fact ... but the arabs are the ones to blame for this entire battle ... they have forced israel's hand in taking the steps to protect themselves ... sure they want their own state, but when you elect a governement whose motto is that israel needs to be destroyed or whatever, they are making a bold statement ... if they wanted to live in peace, israel would be the ones giving them everything (and have given them so much)... while their "brothers" who border them have given them nothing ........ so all this "rats in a cage" thing is BS .. they are bordered by jordan and egypt who have helped out how much?

Tyburn
06-03-2010, 05:53 PM
right or wrong, no one will say anything to israel ... i think israel takes advantage of this fact ... but the arabs are the ones to blame for this entire battle ... they have forced israel's hand in taking the steps to protect themselves ... sure they want their own state, but when you elect a governement whose motto is that israel needs to be destroyed or whatever, they are making a bold statement ... if they wanted to live in peace, israel would be the ones giving them everything (and have given them so much)... while their "brothers" who border them have given them nothing ........ so all this "rats in a cage" thing is BS .. they are bordered by jordan and egypt who have helped out how much?

Here is the irony. The Islamic World hasnt, and doesnt really care for Hamas much either. Most Islamic States I think tend to think of them as a rowdy militia, rather then a serious country.

Egypt has helpped Israel, and none of the other Islamic Countries have made any come back to Egypt...now granted Egypt has had its desputes with Israel, the Sinai peninsular was a battle ground for a while, as was the Suez Cannal...but recently they seem to have gotten along.

Libya, tunisia, algeria, they are two busy with themselves to give a hoot over Israel. They probably arent true Islamic States anyway, they are really rebel run third world countries, who having found richness in tourism or minerals, actually do slightly shady deals with the west. Somalia, is much to far away, and again much to introspective to care about Israel...these African States can be considered Muslim Majority, but they arent real Islamic States in the true sense of the word. They dont have the right government structure. Islamic States need dictatorial control, they dont really work on third world poverty slums, or deal period with civil strife...you have an uprising in a Islamic State and its known as a Revolution

Jordan cant be classed as a true Islamic State either, because I believe Jordan has a Monarchy :laugh: Worse still, if my memory serves me...SHE, is a Queen. Islamic is highly patriarchal...you dont find women in places of authority, thats not a Womans place. :laugh: I dont know about relations between her and Israel...The problem is the Israel that was given back to Israel is vastly smaller then Biblical Israel...I think much of what was called The Kingdom of Judea, is probably geographically located in Jordan...I wonder how expansive Israel has to be to claim she is refounded...because I think she needs to take parts of Lebanon, and Most of Jordan, possibly some of the Sinai...and I hate to think of where her Eastern Boundaries lay in a Biblical capacity...she might be owed from Asyria...at least nearly as far as Babylon :ninja:

Saudi Arabia has gone realllly quiet recently, they are a powerful nation because of their wealth, but Oman, Yemen, United Arab Emerites, they are Tourist destinations, other then the odd radical, I dont think they would get involved, even though I'm pretty sure they are fully fledged Islamic States.

Turkey was positively European...until this week. They refused to move from a Muslim Majority to an Islamic State...as voted for by the Muslim population itself...they then tried to join the European Union. They ARE pissed at Israel now though, mainly because a lot of the people were Turkish. This is personal to them like the passport issue was personal to the United Kingdom during that Mossad Assasination in Dubai.

Lebanon, is frankly, too small to worry about, a bit like Palestine, she is a servere annoyance...but she hasnt the capability to do anything major. Israel pretty much proved that during a partial land invasion of both in the last few years when she had enough of being constantly bombarded and momentarily told them to shut up or else.

Asyria I dont like. I think she is a shyte stirer. I think she would help try and over throw Israel, but she's two skeerd to do it herself. She's passive aggressive, and she must not be trusted. She's waiting to follow someone elses lead. Kuwait, not an issue, Iraq, all talk, and now, much less then that. Iran...an absolute bloody nightmare...they are the real deal. If they get their hands on Nukes then Israel is going to suffer a little I think...they are the powerhouse in the Islamic World, they are the ones who need to be dealt with. Afghanistan is a post apokalyptic Nightmare...but that means she's introspective civil war, and therefore, she's not really a threat. Pakistan...you know they are a split personality, sometimes Pakistan is dangerous and unreasonable, and other times she is completely fair and friendly. She's a wild card, at best a friend, at worst a Sister of Assyria.

The Eastern Bloc, I personally dont think are an issue. They cant move for fear of Mother Russia :laugh: The Children may have left the nest, but Mother still has them on a leash tight enough to jerk the head if they dare utter defiance.

Middle Africa, forget it, I personally think each state has its own worries, and each state is far to lacking to even make threats

Indonesia, south pacific (how the heck Islam made it their, I dont know...do they have freaking Missionaries???) too far away, to under developed...they have to watch themselves against the Super Power of Tommorow...The Peoples Republic of China.

Take out Assyria, and Iran, let Pakistan subside...and Israel wont really have any more of a threat to its existance, then the United States of America, or The United Kingdom.

Tyburn
06-03-2010, 06:10 PM
...You know that Israel is partly to blame for being surrounded by enemies...When GOD first took the land from the Arabs (yes, there was a nation over Israel before Israel took over) GOD specifically told the Settlers to...basically, ethnic clense...I know its sounds terrible...but GOD did tell them basically, to get rid of the locals, or at the very least displace them.

Israel ignored GOD...Israel decided it was better to live in harmony :rolleyes: So the Tribes married into the Locals...and now as well as being part of the same Blood Family (Abrahamic extends to Islam AND Jew) they are blood cousins believe it or not...they are terribly inbread I guess you could say...this means that Israel has been keeping alive a part of the Abrahamic Tree that GOD decided several times was inferior...although he did make Prophecies that he would make mighty nations out of them (and he has, Islam should be taken seriously as a large, and viable, and long term threat...lets face it...Islam isnt going to collapse...one might say she is the Modern Day Rome, in terms of power over her own empire. Christianity has grown weak in its old age...and the Jews were never, and shall never be more then a single Family.

You cant really convert to Judaism...because its not a faith, so much as a Brotherhood...its Blood based...you can only really join it as an adoption. A true Jew is Connected by Blood to Abraham (Ironically, they must be connected to some True Islamists also...since whilst family membership isnt important to Islam...it was originally a blood tie to Abraham also)

Now...I hate to say this...but if Israel had listened to GOD, and either removed, or slaughtered those who had the original land...then there would be a lot less of them trying to kill her today :blink:

But then...The Early Church was no better...again, one of the first commands made by GOD upon its establishment was to WAIT...and what did the Apostles do? they decided to vote a new replacement for Judas...GOD had already selected Judas replacement...and had they waited just a little..they would have seen that Saul should have been the last Apostle. (ever wondered why Mattias has no Gospel :huh:...infact...whose even heard of Mattias :ninja: You know...the guy who was awarded an Apostleship, without GODs consent :rolleyes: )

and somewhere in the Heavens The Almighty is Face-Palming again :laugh:

Tyburn
06-03-2010, 06:31 PM
1) I pretty much agree with you. Israel attacked a ship in international waters, basically declaring war. You can be certain if anyone did this to a U.S. flagged ship in international waters, they would be dealing with repercussions.



2) I disagree with your opinion. I had a Palestinian friend/co-worker who told me some stories about living over there. That's not to say that I am an authority on the situation over there, but that I have heard first hand opposing viewpoints. The attack on the ship in international waters was an act of war.

What is going on over there is FUBAR and SNAFU combined.

1) but you can also be sure that the US could do that same thing to any other country and get away with it. Your A Teenage Mother, and your Daughter behaves like you :laugh: Runs in the Family...We are your Mother...and we do exactly the same :happydancing: WE invented International Law...WE can break it whenever we desire...and dont kid yourself...WE DO.

2) The Act of war, was the ship sailing to Palestine. Your right, Israel reacted like a Nation at war...congratulations on your deduction...try and keep up. As for me...I knew a friend from University, who used to work for the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign...she went out to Palestine...and she got shot by an Israeli :unsure-1: (She wasnt killed) She was on a demonstration march...but this was whilst Palestine as a nation didnt exist, it was just a district of Israel....so Israel was trying to police it directly.

I dont think the Israeli should have hurt her...but...and I mean this in the nicest possible way...she put herself deliberately in harms way. If people took Israel more seriously, they might get hurt less. Palestine is not a place for a peaceful demonstration, anymore then No Mans Land in a World War Two Trench section. Think of Israel and Palestine, like you think of the Bulkans, or Afghanistan, or Iraq...its a real life war zone...its not a place for discussion, its a place for burning muzzles.

Bless her, Aisa went back to Japan for treatment...and then went back to Palestine again...this time she caught Cholera :unsure-1: I dont think she's been back since. I Think she finished at Bradford, her Doctorate or whatever, and then went back from whence she came, to Japan...she was beautiful, and loving, and kind...a heart of Gold, and a passion after Christ, she was a grade eight on the violin...and I suspect she had an impressive voice...I have much love and time for her. But...well..you wouldnt find me in Palestine on any demonstration...infact...you probably wouldnt find me in Israel either. I have my views, and I'll share them...but unless I am required in such a place, via employment or something...I doubt I'll ever set foot near the Holy Land...I gave up trying to go on tour their several years ago now.

Part of me would love to if the opportunity arose...but I make no effort...and I do feel sorry for the Palestinian innocents...like I feel sorry for the Israeli Innocents...but this is War...and I know where my Loyalties lie. I have no problem in seige warfare by Israel against Palestine

Bonnie
06-03-2010, 07:10 PM
I watched a documentary once about Israel and the Palestinians and how all this fighting over the land started when a lot of Jews flocked back to the Holy Land during Hitler's horror... From what I saw, the Arabs had a chance to get a fair portion of the land when it was being arbitrated between the two groups, but they wanted all or nothing. That was a very foolish decision on their part. :wink:

Miss Foxy
06-03-2010, 07:17 PM
right or wrong, no one will say anything to israel ... i think israel takes advantage of this fact ... but the arabs are the ones to blame for this entire battle ... they have forced israel's hand in taking the steps to protect themselves ... sure they want their own state, but when you elect a governement whose motto is that israel needs to be destroyed or whatever, they are making a bold statement ... if they wanted to live in peace, israel would be the ones giving them everything (and have given them so much)... while their "brothers" who border them have given them nothing ........ so all this "rats in a cage" thing is BS .. they are bordered by jordan and egypt who have helped out how much?

Yup!!! You said it brotha!!

Tyburn
06-03-2010, 09:26 PM
I watched a documentary once about Israel and the Palestinians and how all this fighting over the land started when a lot of Jews flocked back to the Holy Land during Hitler's horror... From what I saw, the Arabs had a chance to get a fair portion of the land when it was being arbitrated between the two groups, but they wanted all or nothing. That was a very foolish decision on their part. :wink:

Well...This sounds horrendous, but The State of Israel is basically the Western Allied Powers compensation to the Jews for the Halocaust. Contrary to popular believif that the Jews were homeless after the war, this is simply untrue...the Jews were taken from all over Europe, Jews that had probably been living as citizens of other countries since the scattering.

The unforgiveable part, is not naming their price, which was that they wanted a land of their own, and they wanted the Biblical Land they were given by GOD previously...the unforgiveable part was clearing the land, letting them in...and then walking away from them, and leaving them, alone, to fend for themselves...which kinda happened for a while just after Israels reformation.

I do feel sorry for the palestinians...however, this was a matter of super powers doing what they always did, and displacing a local population to transplant a new nation. Something done billions of time throughout history...the United Nations....namely at that point The United Kingdom, and The United States of America (do you see a pattern here :laugh: ) Gave the land as a gift to the Jews. If the halocast had not happened, or if Germany had won the war...the Jews would either still be being hunted, or they would still be living peacefully all across Europe.

People confuse kindness with civility...Civility is not something a lot of people know or understand, they exchange it for political correctness, kindness, or human rights. Thats got nothing to do with Civility...Civility is far more about treating people according to a code or law...and the hope is those laws are just...for example, extending the rights of citizens to criminals, is not civilized, its grossly injust to the true civilians. Charging the victim for defence against an attacker...thats not civilized either...War crimes, are not civilized...BUT attacking during war time is perfectly correct and civilized...following methodologies of war, like beseigement, trench warfare, gorrilla warfare...those are civilized procedures even if they involve killing...Empire Building, that is also a civilized thing to do...we would count many of these things as totally outrageous today because we have lost track to a certain extent on reality...we are so watered down now we consider possibilities that are beyond Civility...I dont suppose a Victorian would ever have considered the human rights of a convict...why would they?? I dont think this needless post modernism applied ethics is good, right, or proper...the main reason? it always ends up hurting those it should protect.

Whats civilized about me paying for a convicts upkeep? Whats civilized about a convict being completely provided for without contributing to society? Thats not civilized behaviour. The Civilized thing to do would actually be to strip a person of their rights as citizens, and to treat them accordingly. This doesnt mean ritual abuse...it means they have just as strict rights as citizens do...but they dont have the same rights....and they dont have more rights.

People condemn Israel for what? For attacking after being provoked? For enforcing a reasonable embargo? and Why? because its seen as Civilized to allow free access to aid a group of criminals of war, and allow them to be armed through that process? Thats not civilized...and illogical...if you are at war with your enemy...you dont let them gain any advantage...why would you?

We have moved so far away in the past 100 years from Civility, that we have shamed ourselves. Utterly shamed ourselves. We have never been so unjust, and so unfair, as we are now. We reward bad behaviour, and we punish normality...because someone said...what about the criminal.

My reply...would usually be..."what Criminal?? we hanged him at dawn" :laugh: Problem Solved. :happydancing:

AMJ
06-03-2010, 11:07 PM
First of all, being critical of Israel's actions does not mean i'm an anti-semite, you should be more cautious with your words as you don't know anything about me. I believe Israel has the right to defend themselves but this was not self-defence, this was an over-the-top reaction that will cause much backlash.

As I said no-one expected a confrontation like this. Especially in international waters. At most it was expected that the ship would be diverted once in Israeli waters, at which time it would have been daylight and could have been a peaceful operation. This was excessive by all accounts and Israel did not have to go to such extreme lengths for an Aid ship that was sponsored by their biggest Muslim ally, Turkey. Which Israel appears to have lost and is actually scrambling to get back on their good side by stating it wouldn't put any of the people on trial in order to appease their anger.

As to your video evidence, that video is not concrete evidence by any means, at least not in the way you're presenting it as proof that the soldiers were attacked first and for no apparent reason. How do you know the IDF didn't shoot from the helicopters as some of the activists have claimed? Well, you don't, and the clip asks more questions than it answers. It's a random clip that runs for what a minute? It's the equivalent of showing a five second clip of someone punching somone else in the midst of a fight and then painting the punch-thrower as the instigator of the whole incident. The majority of countries have come out to condemn this attack and their is a reason for it, what they did was wrong. You don't attack a humanitarian ship in international waters when there was an alternative option to search the ship in their own sea's and divert it. This was completely unecessary and definitely a political misstep.


I don't see why you're doubting that the Israelis would confiscate cameras and stop transmissions anyway since its regular procedure in any military or police operation in nearly every part of the world. What is more sinister perhaps is that every person injured in the raid has been forbidden to speak to the press, and has an Israeli soldier next to their hospital bed. They've confiscated some of the onboard camera footage and are now releasing snippets that support their version of events, obviously without releasing the full videos.

If you think i'm wrong, how can you explain Israel's resistance to releasing the video's in their possession?


Here is Norman Finkelstein (Ph.D Princeton), and an expert on the Palistinian-Israel conflict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8&feature=player_embedded

Personally, I think he's being a little too critical but I think his premise is valid, stating that Israel just wants to portray its dominance over the Arab world which is a futile exercise if it wants to ever attain a solution to this ongoing crisis.

AMJ
06-03-2010, 11:10 PM
Perhaps, some of you should take a look into this book..

The two authors are prominent political scientists with impeccable credentials, hailing from Harvard and the University of Chicago. They have boldly gone where many of their academic colleagues would fear to tread. Although their conclusions about Israel and its negative influence on American foreign policy will awaken much anxiety, resentment and fury in certain quarters, Walt and Mearsheimer don't seem to care. Why not? They are scientists. They appeal to logic, facts and common sense; and let the conclusions fall where they may.


http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheVGHLIELZCMFLBCBMB2JIESBHBMQGVS5TLIBGB3JLAWDUI FBVBGLJEQ==RW50ZXJ0YWLUBWVUDC1CB29RCW==/imgthe%20israel%20lobby%20and%20u.s.%20foreign%20p olicy1.jpg

atomdanger
06-04-2010, 12:07 AM
.what did they expect the Isreali Forces to do??

Probably not kill 19 of them.

Maybe arrest them?

Tyburn
06-04-2010, 12:08 AM
First of all, being critical of Israel's actions does not mean i'm an anti-semite, you should be more cautious with your words as you don't know anything about me. I believe Israel has the right to defend themselves but this was not self-defence, this was an over-the-top reaction that will cause much backlash.

As I said no-one expected a confrontation like this. Especially in international waters. At most it was expected that the ship would be diverted once in Israeli waters, at which time it would have been daylight and could have been a peaceful operation. This was excessive by all accounts and Israel did not have to go to such extreme lengths for an Aid ship that was sponsored by their biggest Muslim ally, Turkey. Which Israel appears to have lost and is actually scrambling to get back on their good side by stating it wouldn't put any of the people on trial in order to appease their anger.

As to your video evidence, that video is not concrete evidence by any means, at least not in the way you're presenting it as proof that the soldiers were attacked first and for no apparent reason. How do you know the IDF didn't shoot from the helicopters as some of the activists have claimed? Well, you don't, and the clip asks more questions than it answers. It's a random clip that runs for what a minute? It's the equivalent of showing a five second clip of someone punching somone else in the midst of a fight and then painting the punch-thrower as the instigator of the whole incident. The majority of countries have come out to condemn this attack and their is a reason for it, what they did was wrong. You don't attack a humanitarian ship in international waters when there was an alternative option to search the ship in their own sea's and divert it. This was completely unecessary and definitely a political misstep.


I don't see why you're doubting that the Israelis would confiscate cameras and stop transmissions anyway since its regular procedure in any military or police operation in nearly every part of the world. What is more sinister perhaps is that every person injured in the raid has been forbidden to speak to the press, and has an Israeli soldier next to their hospital bed. They've confiscated some of the onboard camera footage and are now releasing snippets that support their version of events, obviously without releasing the full videos.

If you think i'm wrong, how can you explain Israel's resistance to releasing the video's in their possession?


Here is Norman Finkelstein (Ph.D Princeton), and an expert on the Palistinian-Israel conflict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8&feature=player_embedded

Personally, I think he's being a little too critical but I think his premise is valid, stating that Israel just wants to portray its dominance over the Arab world which is a futile exercise if it wants to ever attain a solution to this ongoing crisis.

If you are talking to me...I never accused you of anti-sematism.

But...anyone who knows what Israel is like, and who she thinks she is, would NOT have been suprised that she would halt a fleet of ships heading for her Enemy with "aid"

I dont think that Israel wants to put dominance over the arabs...thats not even sensible to suggest when Israel voluntarily left the Gaza strip, allowing Palestine to ellect its own leadership.

But she does have a high opinion of herself, and she WILL act like she has the importance of her backers...that would be your country, and my country...and she is at war...dont expect her to be nice.

As for Israel and the cameras...you perhaps dont want me to say this...but people can get extremely sensative about picture taking :ninja: Your own police force tried to prevent me from taking a photo of an average road in bettendorf Iowa, and also tried to prevent me from capturing a mall on tape also. Now...I think thats unreasonable...but I'll tell you what I didnt do...I didnt go up to the gates of Rock Island Arsenal and flash my camera around. Not even I would be daring enough to try and take photos of an American Military facility...its called spying. Mossad would be very unhappy about a group of protestors filming their boarding process...just because these things arent advertised...geeez you want to show Palestine how a Mossad raiding party functions as well as supplying them with "Aid" :laugh:

She will only release the material she wants, that doesnt show anything bad of her (thats called propergandar) and she wont show anything that will give away the slightest hint of something known as National Security.

I cant believe im having this conversation with an American (I assume you are one?) :laugh: Try to imagine that Israel believes that she is as powerful and important as America...it will help explain how she acts. She believes she is a world super power, she believes she has the right to breach international law, she is paranoid, she is slightly pre emptive and she does occasionally over react. These are Traits that our Great Nations all share. Who do you think sponcers Israel...your not taking what im saying seriously are you?? who do you think arms Israel? who do you think trains her secret service??

WE DO :laugh: We are actually allies in a war against Palestine... the United States provides her weapons, and those weapons go through United Kingdom airports en route. They did during the invasion into Palestine...they did during the land invasion of Hezbollah of Lebanon...despite both our Governments condemning...or at least not vocally supporting either of these events...do you realize that the last Prime Minister of Israel came acroppa because of the lebanon thing...people asked for a public investigation...and the Government found itself at fault...that was pretty much the end of Omert...or whatever his name was...and as for the one before him whose name momentarily escapes me...he had some kinda brain heamorage, or some kind of mental incapacity very soon after freeing Palestine. The Prime minster now, is a former prime minster...one of Israeli Finest...his name is Benyamin Netenyahu...i love the name...its nearly as good as hosni mubarack...the Egyptian leader...now I think he took over after an assassination in Egypt...but I cant remember...without looking it up...and now ive forgotten the point I was trying to make :unsure-1:

Tyburn
06-04-2010, 12:09 AM
Probably not kill 19 of them.

Maybe arrest them?

Then they dont know Israel very well do they. :laugh:

Besides Israel did arrest...most....of them :mellow:

Tyburn
06-04-2010, 12:15 AM
Perhaps, some of you should take a look into this book..




http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheVGHLIELZCMFLBCBMB2JIESBHBMQGVS5TLIBGB3JLAWDUI FBVBGLJEQ==RW50ZXJ0YWLUBWVUDC1CB29RCW==/imgthe%20israel%20lobby%20and%20u.s.%20foreign%20p olicy1.jpg

Dont know it...but America is right wing Christian, and its got a lot of Jewish Settlers in various quarters...therefore, obviously America is likely to form foreign policy that looks after and towards Israel...I wouldnt call it a conspiracy...its just political knowledge. The United States helpped form Israel...obviously its going to support its allies...how is that negative :huh:

AMJ
06-04-2010, 12:25 AM
Honestly, Tyburn - a lot of what you wrote just solidifies my point, that Israel knows what they did was wrong. You would think that a country that says it wants peace, would be a little more proactive about it, this was not a measure of good faith and will only leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouth.

Don't get me wrong, if Israel used this type of tactic against Hamas rebels firing rockets from the hilltops, I would say, "Well, they're defending their land and they have every right to do that".

You can't say that here, they were in international waters for pete's sake! If the roles were reversed, what would the reaction be like?

Tyburn - do me a favour and read the book, it's not some hippy conspiracy theory, this is a book authored by two of the most prominent political scientists from our generation who respectively teach at Harvard and University of Chicago.

I would highly encourage you to read it.

AMJ
06-04-2010, 12:28 AM
And yes Tyburn, i'm an American.. Born and raised in Plainfield, Jersey!! (Well, born in Secaucus actually)

I'm just doing my Masters and internship in Toronto. It's nice to have American and Canadian parents.

Vizion
06-04-2010, 12:41 AM
You can't say that here, they were in international waters for pete's sake! If the roles were reversed, what would the reaction be like?

1.) what were the intentions of the flotilla?

2.) were they warned not to come to Gaza by Israel?

Vizion
06-04-2010, 12:43 AM
Probably not kill 19 of them.

Maybe arrest them?9 were killed....not 19. I wonder if AMJ is watching MSNBC :laugh:

flo
06-04-2010, 01:33 AM
I watched a documentary once about Israel and the Palestinians and how all this fighting over the land started when a lot of Jews flocked back to the Holy Land during Hitler's horror... From what I saw, the Arabs had a chance to get a fair portion of the land when it was being arbitrated between the two groups, but they wanted all or nothing. That was a very foolish decision on their part. :wink:
You're so right, Bonnie. Look how close Barak and Arafat were to a peace agreement. But no matter how many concessions, it was never enough for Arafat.

atomdanger
06-04-2010, 01:46 AM
9 were killed....not 19. I wonder if AMJ is watching MSNBC :laugh:

WEre they armed?

Even 9, damn.

We have an embargo with Cuba, the National Gaurd isn't killing boatloads of cubans coming to florida.

J.B.
06-04-2010, 01:48 AM
WEre they armed?

Even 9, damn.

We have an embargo with Cuba, the National Gaurd isn't killing boatloads of cubans coming to florida.

The Florida coast isn't in a war-zone.

Vizion
06-04-2010, 01:48 AM
We have an embargo with Cuba, the National Gaurd isn't killing boatloads of cubans coming to florida.

Who drew first blood?

NateR
06-04-2010, 01:52 AM
Perhaps, some of you should take a look into this book..




http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheVGHLIELZCMFLBCBMB2JIESBHBMQGVS5TLIBGB3JLAWDUI FBVBGLJEQ==RW50ZXJ0YWLUBWVUDC1CB29RCW==/imgthe%20israel%20lobby%20and%20u.s.%20foreign%20p olicy1.jpg

The fact that one of the authors comes from Harvard pretty much destroys any credibility that he might have with me.

NateR
06-04-2010, 02:01 AM
You're so right, Bonnie. Look how close Barak and Arafat were to a peace agreement. But no matter how many concessions, it was never enough for Arafat.

Yeah, the Arab stance has always been that there is plenty of room for the Jews at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea. They claim to want peace, but their version of peace will only exist when all the Jews are dead. Anyone who believes otherwise is just buying into their lies.

Israel is a nation of 5 million people surrounded by enemies and with their backs against the ocean. Eventually they will stop caring what the rest of the world thinks and start wiping out major sections of the Arab world, and I will support them 100% in that venture.:headbanger:

Spiritwalker
06-04-2010, 02:44 AM
Israel is a nation of 5 million people surrounded by enemies and with their backs against the ocean. Eventually they will stop caring what the rest of the world thinks and start wiping out major sections of the Arab world, and I will support them 100% in that venture.:headbanger:


as in mindless murder?

What about those that just don't care.. but can't get out of the area?

mscomc
06-04-2010, 03:03 AM
The fact that one of the authors comes from Harvard pretty much destroys any credibility that he might have with me.

slightly off topic....but what do you have against harvard? They are arguably the United States best university, and have consistently been ranked as a top ten university WORLD WIDE; in terms or research grants, nobel prize winners, medical science, law etc., and its one of the hardest to get into. What university would you find more credible?

is it because you find harvard has a more liberal faculty? ......no sarcasm intended, i really am just curious.

atomdanger
06-04-2010, 07:43 AM
The Florida coast isn't in a war-zone.

What international waters are?

J.B.
06-04-2010, 08:10 AM
What international waters are?

40 miles off the coast of Gaza and 40 miles off the coast of Florida are two completely different things man. It's unfortunate that 9 people are dead, and while Israel may have over-reacted, those people knew what they were doing and that is a war-zone.

Tyburn
06-04-2010, 11:52 AM
Honestly, Tyburn - a lot of what you wrote just solidifies my point, that Israel knows what they did was wrong. You would think that a country that says it wants peace, would be a little more proactive about it, this was not a measure of good faith and will only leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouth.

Don't get me wrong, if Israel used this type of tactic against Hamas rebels firing rockets from the hilltops, I would say, "Well, they're defending their land and they have every right to do that".

You can't say that here, they were in international waters for pete's sake! If the roles were reversed, what would the reaction be like?

Tyburn - do me a favour and read the book, it's not some hippy conspiracy theory, this is a book authored by two of the most prominent political scientists from our generation who respectively teach at Harvard and University of Chicago.

I would highly encourage you to read it.

You dont get it do you. Israel is a Super power, she may do exactly what she likes...just like the United States does, just like the United Kingdom does. Its not a case of her believeing she has done wrong...its a case of her saying that on issues of National Security, she actually doesnt care about International Law...and Neither does the United States, and Neither does the United Kingdom..all three of them, only care about International Law when some other country breaks that law and it effects or threatens them...you know...like sending an iad ship packed with GOD knows what, to an enemy looking for military support.

Its a classic case of "do as I say, not do as I do" You know, Israel halted a few ships, and she has launched afew invasions...but only ever to defend herself. If she was a true super power, she would not have withdrawn almost imediately from Lebanon, nor would she have withdrawn immediately from Palestine, nor would she have allowed Palestine to ellect and run its own piece of land. That would be like the United States allowing Iran to freely develope Nuclear Weapons, on an issue of "good faith" :rolleyes:

Its because you are still not taking Israel seriously...she is bombarded day and night constantly by a nation she freed of her own will. Imagine, if you give Soverignty back to hawaii, and for the next three years, hawaii sends daily airstrikes on the western seaboard...how long do you think it would take for the United States to react with a finality that would stop the bombardment for ever?

Heck...the United States wouldnt let it get that far...do you not remember Grenada? when the United States feared Grenada was about to have a change in leadership thanks to a coup in 1983, she launched an land invasion of the Island, and took military control of a commonwealth state less then ten years out of the British Empire.

Few people probably even remember or care about it...thats was a whole Island...the United States can, and does get away with anything, and everything...and so largely does the United Kingdom...and so does Israel, because she is part of the family of Nations who CREATED International Law in the first place...and thus place themselves above it.

Yes its hypocritical...but it happens, its called reality, and how anyone with any knowledge of Western Imperialism could think otherwise, is beyond me.

But Israel doesnt matter. Who cares if Israel gets bombarded every single day? and how dare she turn round every once in a while and get angry with those whose mission statement is to distroy her??? For goodness sake :rolleyes:

atomdanger
06-04-2010, 06:22 PM
40 miles off the coast of Gaza and 40 miles off the coast of Florida are two completely different things man. It's unfortunate that 9 people are dead, and while Israel may have over-reacted, those people knew what they were doing and that is a war-zone.

Eh, I think if you're sympathizing with Isreal, then you could see it that way.

I think if cops or Military anywhere kill 9 unarmed people (assuming they were unarmed, can't find any information about them having guns?) the world would be having a FIT. They were out of line, period.

Tyburn
06-04-2010, 06:25 PM
Eh, I think if you're sympathizing with Isreal, then you could see it that way.

I think if cops or Military anywhere kill 9 unarmed people (assuming they were unarmed, can't find any information about them having guns?) the world would be having a FIT. They were out of line, period.

The Israelis claim they had knives...and remember, the Israelis didnt know if they had guns or not...are you willing to chance risking the lives of your men...over an aid ship that doesnt even have the authority to set sail :huh:

Tyburn
06-04-2010, 06:33 PM
WEre they armed?

Even 9, damn.

We have an embargo with Cuba, the National Gaurd isn't killing boatloads of cubans coming to florida.

Cuba isnt conducting daily bombings of Miami...I promise, if she launched missiles against a City of the United States...they WOULD start killing anyone who got in their way...that would probably include making it absolutely impossible for an aid ship to go to Cuba.

Having an Embargo because you dont aggree with the political structure of a country...and having an embargo because you are at war with an enemy are two different things.

The United States has an embargo based on mere preferences, Israeli Embargo was to directly prevent loss of lives to its citizens...surely you can see the difference...If Cuba started Killing Americans...America would distroy her...completely...I dont mean knock out a few weapons factories like Israel does. I mean, she would launch a full scale invasion, and she would win.

I'm not sure what clauses there are in the United Nations Charter about nations suspending normal International Law rules in order to go to war with one another. Its supposed to stop things getting that far...but once missiles have gone up...its a little late to sit at a negotiation table isnt it...at least not until your enemy wishes to seek terms of surrender.

J.B.
06-04-2010, 06:38 PM
Eh, I think if you're sympathizing with Isreal, then you could see it that way.

I think if cops or Military anywhere kill 9 unarmed people (assuming they were unarmed, can't find any information about them having guns?) the world would be having a FIT. They were out of line, period.

Yeah, actually I do sympathize with Israel in the conflict with Palestine, but that has no bearing on the point I am making to you.

40 miles outside of Gaza in the Mediterranean Sea is A LOT different than 40 miles off the coast of Florida in the Atlantic Ocean or Gulf of Mexico. It's just a BAD comparison of two areas in vastly different situations. Think of it like this. If I said to you that a suicide bomber killed 50 people in Baghdad today, you wouldn't be too surprised, but if I said a suicide bomber killed 50 people in Chicago, it would definitely make you raise an eyebrow.

It's unfortunate that it happened the way it did, and it doesn't surprise me that a situation like this could quickly turn into a blood-bath, even if it seems like an over-reaction. Also, the world IS having a "fit" over the whole thing, so I'm not sure what you are getting at with that. However, my view still stands that they had no business being there and I agree with Dave in that I think they were doing it to deliberately provoke Israel.

J.B.
06-04-2010, 06:42 PM
Cuba isnt conducting daily bombings of Miami...I promise, if she launched missiles against a City of the United States...they WOULD start killing anyone who got in their way...that would probably include making it absolutely impossible for an aid ship to go to Cuba.


Exactly.

I think a lot of people in America would be singing a slightly different tune if that were the case. If Cuba was bombing Miami, everybody would be chanting for us to send them back to the stone age.

Vizion
06-04-2010, 07:43 PM
Eh, I think if you're sympathizing with Isreal, then you could see it that way.

I think if cops or Military anywhere kill 9 unarmed people (assuming they were unarmed, can't find any information about them having guns?) the world would be having a FIT. They were out of line, period. Check out this video and tell me they weren't armed and waiting for the IDF. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU

What would have been the nature of your response to such hostilities?

Vizion
06-04-2010, 08:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlxdJC6KGgk&playnext_from=TL&videos=aN1knb0wNcw&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_r2-2r-1-HM

thoughts?

flo
06-04-2010, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the links, Vizion. Hopefully, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind now that the Seals were defending themselves.

atomdanger
06-04-2010, 11:19 PM
Check out this video and tell me they weren't armed and waiting for the IDF. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU

What would have been the nature of your response to such hostilities?

Thats a joke.

PEPPER SPRAY? MACE? TEAR GAS?
TASERS? BILLY CLUBS? RUBBER BULLETS, BEAN BAG GUN, ETC.....

Its called non lethal force, it works.
they handled it wrong.

I remember a case here in Seattle where a man with a sword was running around downtown,
they shot him with rubber bullets, problem solved.

They were on a damn boat throwing bottles and crap,
so you killed 9 of them? lol, come on.
You're completely crazy if you don't think they went way over the line

atomdanger
06-04-2010, 11:22 PM
Good to know that most of you condone shooting somebody to DEATH,
when they attack with a stick or a bottle.

I am really surprised.
These guys are special forces, aim for the knee if you're an absolute gun nut.
Nothing wrong with non lethal force, pepper spray the hell out of the boat,
fire a taser, THEN board.

J.B.
06-04-2010, 11:41 PM
I remember a case here in Seattle where a man with a sword was running around downtown,
they shot him with rubber bullets, problem solved.


I remember a case that happened not even 5-7 miles from where I live today, about a police officer shooting and killing a teenager who was threatening to commit suicide with a butter knife. Supposedly, the teen came at the cop with the butter knife, and the cop shot him. Pretty crappy situation, and an obvious over-reaction from the officer.

The moral of the story? S**T HAPPENS. Especially when dumb-ass people put themselves in dumb-ass situations. These people not only had no business being there in the first place, but they were clearly looking for trouble. Heck, some of them came out and said they wanted to be martyrs, from what I understand.

Vizion
06-05-2010, 04:10 AM
Thats a joke.

PEPPER SPRAY? MACE? TEAR GAS?
TASERS? BILLY CLUBS? RUBBER BULLETS, BEAN BAG GUN, ETC.....

Its called non lethal force, it works.
they handled it wrong.

Excuse me ...were you there? :huh:

flo
06-05-2010, 04:24 AM
I remember a case here in Seattle where a man with a sword was running around downtown,
they shot him with rubber bullets, problem solved.



You know, it's kind of funny you brought that up because a) he wasn't attacking anyone and b) it took the idiotic Seattle police dept. 11 hours - yes, that's right, 11 - before they took him down. Sort of brought everything downtown to a halt for an extended period, wouldn't you say? That probably cost quite a few $$ in manhours, not to mention the loss of business while they were trying to figure out the most politically correct way to stop the guy without offending any person, place or thing.

And they didn't use rubber bullets either. Here's what they finally did:

After nearly half a day unbudged from his sidewalk post, steadfast Apollo was finally brought down using a two-pronged tactic of cold water sprayed with firehoses and prolonged exposure to a large fan -- designed, after consultation with medical experts, to weaken his muscle control through hypothermia -- followed by a rush to pin his body with a 12-foot ladder and his sword arm with a pole. Even with these extreme measures he showed nigh-Rasputinesque levels of resilience: the high-pressure hoses were only able to knock him down temporarily and it took nearly three minutes to finally wrest the sword from his pinned hand.

I don't think that tactic would have worked too well with the Jew-hating flotilla fanatics.

Chuck
06-05-2010, 04:34 AM
Good to know that most of you condone shooting somebody to DEATH,
when they attack with a stick or a bottle.

I am really surprised.
These guys are special forces, aim for the knee if you're an absolute gun nut.
Nothing wrong with non lethal force, pepper spray the hell out of the boat,
fire a taser, THEN board.

I'm even more surprised you feel this way to be honest. Have you seen ANY of the videos???? The soldiers were being surrounded by a mob beating them with sticks, hitting them with bottles... I think lethal force was more than adequate. We're not talking about one on one in an alley... were talking about an angry mob beating a soldier.

IF those were villagers in Iraq surrounding and beating a U.S. soldier would you still think the same way?

More than anything though... you're comments just sound ignorant. Gun nut? Pepper Spray an entire ship? Tasers????????? Do you actually have ANY idea what you're talking about?????:huh:

atomdanger
06-05-2010, 07:49 AM
I remember a case that happened not even 5-7 miles from where I live today, about a police officer shooting and killing a teenager who was threatening to commit suicide with a butter knife. Supposedly, the teen came at the cop with the butter knife, and the cop shot him. Pretty crappy situation, and an obvious over-reaction from the officer.

The moral of the story? S**T HAPPENS. Especially when dumb-ass people put themselves in dumb-ass situations. These people not only had no business being there in the first place, but they were clearly looking for trouble. Heck, some of them came out and said they wanted to be martyrs, from what I understand.

Right, crap does happen, that doesn't mean the cop was in the right.
Period.

they were in the wrong.

atomdanger
06-05-2010, 07:50 AM
I'm even more surprised you feel this way to be honest. Have you seen ANY of the videos???? The soldiers were being surrounded by a mob beating them with sticks, hitting them with bottles... I think lethal force was more than adequate. We're not talking about one on one in an alley... were talking about an angry mob beating a soldier.

IF those were villagers in Iraq surrounding and beating a U.S. soldier would you still think the same way?

More than anything though... you're comments just sound ignorant. Gun nut? Pepper Spray an entire ship? Tasers????????? Do you actually have ANY idea what you're talking about?????:huh:

Have you ever been tased? Or maced?

If you were going to board a ship where people were throwing things and holding sticks,
WHY on earth wouldn't you tase and mace or tear gas first?

LOGIC.

atomdanger
06-05-2010, 07:52 AM
You know, it's kind of funny you brought that up because a) he wasn't attacking anyone and b) it took the idiotic Seattle police dept. 11 hours - yes, that's right, 11 - before they took him down. Sort of brought everything downtown to a halt for an extended period, wouldn't you say? That probably cost quite a few $$ in manhours, not to mention the loss of business while they were trying to figure out the most politically correct way to stop the guy without offending any person, place or thing.

And they didn't use rubber bullets either. Here's what they finally did:



I don't think that tactic would have worked too well with the Jew-hating flotilla fanatics.

You're right, the rubber bullets were the WTO rioters,
who had bats, sticks, bottles, rocks, and fire bombs.

atomdanger
06-05-2010, 07:54 AM
Excuse me ...were you there? :huh:

Were YOU?

Fact: 9 people with sticks and bottles are dead.
Fact: Non Lethal force was not used

You weren't there like I wasn't, why defend the military who did the killing?

J.B.
06-05-2010, 08:48 AM
Were YOU?

Fact: 9 people with sticks and bottles are dead.
Fact: Non Lethal force was not used

You weren't there like I wasn't, why defend the military who did the killing?

Why defend protesters you don't know?

TexasRN
06-05-2010, 12:11 PM
Have you ever been tased? Or maced?

If you were going to board a ship where people were throwing things and holding sticks,
WHY on earth wouldn't you tase and mace or tear gas first?

LOGIC.


I've been pepper sprayed directly in the face and it didn't faze me one bit. Didn't hurt. Didn't sting. Didn't cause me to have any reaction whatsoever. It doesn't work on EVERYbody. Proven fact. And no, I was not on drugs or anything, it was for work as a correctional officer during training.


~Amy

NateR
06-05-2010, 01:32 PM
Cuba isnt conducting daily bombings of Miami...

EXACTLY!

Just imagine if the south-eastern coast of the United States was getting hit by rocket attacks from Cuba on a daily basis. Americans were being killed and homes were being destroyed every single day. But the world continually sided with the Cubans and portrayed Americans as the aggressors. Then let's imagine that the Cubans claim that they are directly descended from Ponce de Leon, thus they actually own the entire state of Florida and the US stole the land from them. So the UN forces the United States to bulldoze every American home and business in Florida and gives the entire state to Cuba. Does this stop the attacks and violence? No. It actually ramps it up and the Cubans, who are now on former-American soil, begin escalating their attacks and continuing to claim that they are just acting in self-defense because of the oppression of their American neighbors.

Sound too ridiculous to be true? Actually it's not, because that's almost the exact situation that exists in Israel right now.

NateR
06-05-2010, 01:38 PM
Do you actually have ANY idea what you're talking about?????:huh:

No, he doesn't. Atomdanger is obviously completely ignorant of the situation over there in Israel.

Vizion
06-05-2010, 01:52 PM
Were YOU?

Fact: 9 people with sticks and bottles are dead.
Fact: Non Lethal force was not used

You weren't there like I wasn't, why defend the military who did the killing?You are accusing the IDF of soldiers of cold blooded murder it sounds to me. And how in the world do you know non-lethal force was NOT used? Perhaps it was and didn't work, which left lethal force as the only alternative.

Again, did you watch the videos???

Tyburn
06-05-2010, 02:26 PM
EXACTLY!

Just imagine if the south-eastern coast of the United States was getting hit by rocket attacks from Cuba on a daily basis. Americans were being killed and homes were being destroyed every single day. But the world continually sided with the Cubans and portrayed Americans as the aggressors. Then let's imagine that the Cubans claim that they are directly descended from Ponce de Leon, thus they actually own the entire state of Florida and the US stole the land from them. So the UN forces the United States to bulldoze every American home and business in Florida and gives the entire state to Cuba. Does this stop the attacks and violence? No. It actually ramps it up and the Cubans, who are now on former-American soil, begin escalating their attacks and continuing to claim that they are just acting in self-defense because of the oppression of their American neighbors.

Sound too ridiculous to be true? Actually it's not, because that's almost the exact situation that exists in Israel right now.

Except....that Israel withdrew from Palestine...so to use your Analogy...The United States grants a charter of freedom to Cuban Florida...and THEN the attacks still continue. The situation is even more riddiculous...and you displacing the example shows how idiotic the situation in Israel really is...because like you show, if it happened anywhere else...it would not be tollerated...dont forget...this daily bombardment hasnt been going on for a while....in this scenario, Cuba has been bombing Miami for nearly FIFTY YEARS :laugh::laugh:

People just dont take Israel seriously...they treat her as if she is some third world country, whose wars dont matter because she doesnt matter. They forget who Israel is, and they deny who clearly supports her. I cant tell you how irritated that makes me :angry:

Chuck
06-05-2010, 02:31 PM
Have you ever been tased? Or maced?

If you were going to board a ship where people were throwing things and holding sticks,
WHY on earth wouldn't you tase and mace or tear gas first?

LOGIC.

IGNORANCE.... :duh:

How do you mace or taze from a helicopter???? :blink: In order to use either of those weapons effectively you would have to be on the ship. The soldiers had no chance to deploy them. They were either shaken loose from their ropes and fell to the deck or jumped on by the crowd the instant they touched foot on the ship.

Had they actually been given a moment to deploy a less lethal weapon it still would not have worked. Mace in the open ocean would be completely ineffective to disperse a crowd as would teargas. A taser is fine for a brief moment but it's a single shot weapon of NO USE in a crowd.

They surrounded a soldier and beat him the instant he touched his foot on the ship. Then they tossed him over a railing... what kind of people on a humanitarian mission do that? :scared0015: Do you think the Red Cross or any legitimate organization would have responded that way? NO!

Do you really understand anything about crowd control? Escalation of force? Military/police weapons or tactics????

I understand you're a bleeding heart liberal from WA but seriously..... :dunce:

Tyburn
06-05-2010, 02:32 PM
Good to know that most of you condone shooting somebody to DEATH,
when they attack with a stick or a bottle.

I am really surprised.
These guys are special forces, aim for the knee if you're an absolute gun nut.
Nothing wrong with non lethal force, pepper spray the hell out of the boat,
fire a taser, THEN board.

Remember this was a boarding raid. The Soldiers were trying to get on to the boat by climbing up the sides, and by dropping down ropes from helicopters and the likes...you cant defend yourself really until you have your feet on deck...I suspect it would have been absolutely impossible to use a tazer with any accuracy.... the Forces were under attack BEFORE they were able to board...they were being pushed off the side

Please remember, that several highly trained soldiers were hurt...these are some of the best trained forces in the world...that so many were hurt tells you something. Also...one of the major accusations of Israel is that these men didnt draw their weapons, until those on board ship tried to disarm them....you dont try to steal the firearm of a special forces person...The fact you would go for it, shows that you want it...presumably to shoot at them, with their own firearm. thats a tremendously bad idea. :mellow:

Chuck
06-05-2010, 02:37 PM
Why defend protesters you don't know?

A) Because he's a bleeding heart liberal....
B) He's an Anti Semite...
C) Just to stir up crap....
D) Both A & B....
E) Both A & C....
F) Both B & C
G) All of the above?????????
H) :Whistle:

flo
06-05-2010, 05:29 PM
A) Because he's a bleeding heart liberal....
B) He's an Anti Semite...
C) Just to stir up crap....
D) Both A & B....
E) Both A & C....
F) Both B & C
G) All of the above?????????
H) :Whistle:

:applause::happy0159:

Vizion
06-05-2010, 09:20 PM
A) Because he's a bleeding heart liberal....
B) He's an Anti Semite...
C) Just to stir up crap....
D) Both A & B....
E) Both A & C....
F) Both B & C
G) All of the above?????????
H) :Whistle:
I'm going to do with E.

Crisco
06-05-2010, 09:44 PM
Sorry but if someone who hates me with a hell fire passion and they would happily beat me to death with that metal pipe I would blow the ****ers head off sorry.

Ask any police officer someone can just as easily kill you with a pipe as a knife.

I would have opened fire myself if I where in the commandos shoe's.


Keep in mind this is close quarters so that half second it takes to get space to his the legs is a half second closer you are to being knocked unconcious and then beaten to death by angry protestors.