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Spiritwalker
05-20-2010, 04:11 PM
Discuss???

I am really curious as to what you guys think about this. I have my own thoughts that I will share when I get home tonight.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/05/20/slavery.descendants.meet/index.html?hpt=C1


When kin of slaves and owner meet
By Wayne Drash, CNN
May 20, 2010 9:14 a.m. EDT
Betty and Phoebe Kilby first met in February 2007. They are linked by a slave past.

* Betty Kilby descends from slaves in Virginia; Phoebe Kilby, from slave masters
* The two have formed a unique friendship from their past
* Betty says: "She was coming back to say, 'What can I do to make amends?' "
* "I have an opportunity to make amends for the past in some small way," Phoebe says

(CNN) -- Betty Kilby was gripped with apprehension. Descendants of the white family that enslaved her kin were coming to dinner.

She scrolled through a mental Rolodex of relatives who might flip out. Her brothers had already asked her: Why would you want to meet the family of those who held our loved ones in bondage?

"When they ask that question," she says, "you kind of scratch your head. It makes sense. Why would you want to do that?"

As the dinner neared, she thought of her grandparents, who had toiled in the fields of rural Rappahannock County, Virginia. "Out of all the crazy things I've done," she thought, "this has got to be the craziest."

Betty had faced down racism, and white people, before. She was one of the first African-Americans to attend a desegregated school in Virginia. She'd even written a book about it.

But this dinner, though weeks in the making, would test her in a new way.

'Knew we were connected'

But Phoebe had read newspaper articles about African-American Kilbys living in Virginia, near the farm where her father grew up. Her curiosity sent her on a search of old courthouse records -- deeds, wills, census documents.

She soon learned her family owned five slaves.

And when she read Betty Kilby's book, the puzzle fell together.

"I just knew we were connected," Phoebe said.

But how does the descendant of a slave owner reach out?

"It's a hard thing to do out of the blue," Phoebe said. "What do you say to somebody? And how are they going to react to you? Are they going to be angry? Are they going to say, 'I never want to talk to somebody like you?' "

On January 15, 2007, she sat down at her computer and fired off an e-mail to Betty. It was Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

"My name is Phoebe Kilby, and I am white," the note began.

"Martin Luther King had 'a dream that ... the sons of former slaves and slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of Brotherhood.' Perhaps, we as daughters can contribute to fulfilling that dream."

Days went by. No response.

"At first, I thought she doesn't want to talk to me."

It turned out a computer glitch meant Betty never received the e-mail. Two weeks after she sent the first note, Phoebe tried again.

"Hello, cousin," Betty responded.

The two spoke briefly by phone and made a plan to meet.

Betty was mega-busy on a book tour, giving speeches about love and brotherhood. At schools, black children would ask, "How come you don't hate white people?"

"I tell them hate is like taking poison. The only person you hurt is yourself."

Without much thought, Betty invited Phoebe to the family dinner. "I thought, what kind of hypocrite would I be if I could not sit down at the table of brotherhood with Phoebe?"

Still, she and others in her family couldn't help but wonder about Phoebe's motives. Were the descendants of the slave master coming to steal from them one last time?

Searching for roots

An explosion of genealogical Web sites -- from RootsWeb to AfriGeneas to Family Search -- has helped African-Americans find information about their ancestors with the click of a mouse.

Descendants of slaves and slave owners stumble upon each other while researching their families. Sometimes, descendants of slave masters can help shed light on the past through family documents that still aren't public.
Hate is like taking poison. The only person you hurt is yourself.
--Betty Kilby

Such topics were taboo in the past and, to some degree, still are. But time has helped make them easier to discuss.

"When you meet someone whose ancestors are connected to yours through slavery, you become connected with that history in a very personal way," said Susan Hutchison, the community coordinator for Coming to the Table, a program sponsored by the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding at Eastern Mennonite University in Virginia.

The program, begun in 2005, encourages descendants of slaves and slave owners to discuss history, connection, healing and action.

"So much of the damage of slavery has come from the disconnection between African-Americans and European-Americans," Hutchison said. "To build a connection out of a history where there's been so much painful disconnection is particularly powerful.

"We've found that building connections is a critical piece of what's needed for healing on a personal level, on a family level and on a national level."

She said the internet has made a huge difference in helping bring both sides together, although it's still not an everyday occurrence.

It's even rarer for descendants of slaves and slave owners to become friends. Many draw the line at e-mail and phone contact.

"It's quite rare for people to find each other and very intentionally talk about the real history of the time and the social forces around slavery and what came after slavery," Hutchison said.

Why is that important?

"There's an opportunity to create a new legacy that is more honest and whole," she said. "And out of these new relationships, we're finding people are able to take action."

Hutchison descends from an array of Southern slaveholders and has traveled the South to meet descendants of the people her family enslaved. Her experience spurred her to help create Coming to the Table. The project helps people research family history and grapple with what it means to have ancestors who were slaves or slaveholders. But it's not just for people who have a direct family connection to slavery.

"We are all still impacted by this history," Hutchison said. "There are still big racial gaps -- in access to education, jobs, health care, just to name a few. All of us, all our communities, have stories about race. Coming to the Table tries to create a safe space for those stories to come out, so we can learn about each other and move forward together."

Two divergent paths

Betty and Phoebe Kilby are only 10 years apart in age. But their lives took divergent paths. Betty grew up in the segregated South, and everything that came with it. Her father, James Wilson Kilby, was a sharecropper who was robbed of a high school education in Rappahannock County. He vowed that his children would get educated.

He sued the Warren County board of education, following the landmark Supreme Court case Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka. On February 18, 1959, Betty and 22 others were the first African-Americans to attend Warren County High School. Whites boycotted the school for the first seven months of integration.

As a plaintiff in the case, Betty Kilby's family became the target of extreme hatred.

"The minute anybody knew you were a Kilby, that opened you up to harassment," she says.

The night before Betty first attended the school, she was washing dishes in the kitchen when shots rang out. "I was so scared, I passed out. My mother thought I was shot."

Gunshots were routinely fired at her home. The family dog was poisoned, she says.

By September 1959, about 500 white students had returned to school. That's when it got really ugly. Daily, the black students were pelted by spitballs. Racial epithets were hurled. Some would sniff and hold their nose up in the air "as if I stank," Betty says.

Teachers turned a blind eye.

At restaurants, when she saw white families praying before dinner, she thought, "Are they real? Do they really love God like we do?"

While Betty struggled through her high school years, Phoebe Kilby was just a young child. The girls' fathers had grown up less than a mile from each other on two separate farms. (They're not sure if their dads knew each other.)

Phoebe's dad received his high school diploma, went to college and became a doctor. Phoebe grew up in Baltimore, where she attended a private girls' school with other white children.

"Right there," she says, "you see a difference in access to education. The trajectories of the families are just totally different."

"Those kinds of things become more stark when you realize you have a connection to that family. I think that's a value of coming to the table. It becomes apparent to you what kind of advantages you had because you're white."

Betty and Phoebe bubble with enthusiasm when they talk about that evening in February 2007, when they first met.

Despite her initial apprehension, Betty says a unique friendship emerged. When Phoebe, along with her sister, joined Betty's family for dinner that night, Betty says she received an unexpected surprise.

"She was coming back to say, 'What can I do to make amends?' " Betty recalls. "The last thing we had thought about was a [white] Kilby wanting to make amends."
We can reach out and work on past wrongs, and repair those harms.
--Phoebe Kilby

Betty roars with laughter. She admits black families have misperceptions about white families, especially the descendants of slave owners. Black families, she says, believe most whites "won't talk about this, because you don't have the courage."

"You begin to break down those barriers as you're able to sit down at the table and talk about the difficult things," she says. "You take the color of that person's skin off, and you start to look at that person's heart."

Adds Phoebe: "We don't talk to each other very much across racial lines in America. This has given me an opportunity to really develop friendships with people I feel like are my family. It just happens we're a different race."

Phoebe says it started out awkwardly in those first few minutes when they met. One of Betty's brothers was awfully skeptical, she says, but he "warmed up a little bit." After dinner, the families attended a screening of a documentary about Betty's life. Afterward, there was a question-and-answer session. Phoebe stood up, introduced herself and spoke of her twisted connection to the past.

"Just having a white person get up and acknowledge there were harms done in the past seemed to be meaningful," she says.

Betty says it went a long way to helping heal wounds. "I'm grateful to have met Phoebe," she says.

One of Betty's brothers remains unswayed. "He just thinks it's absolutely crazy." Phoebe's father died in 1986. She never talked about racial issues with him, but she admits, "I don't think he would feel very good about this."

Both women now travel the country telling their story as part of the "Coming To the Table" program.

"I feel compelled to make that connection with the descendants of slaves," Phoebe says. "It makes me feel like I have an opportunity to make amends for the past in some small way. We can reach out and work on past wrongs, and repair those harms. That's just important to me as a person."

Betty agrees. "There's heart in that. There's love in that," she says. "That is my door to heaven, being able to love everybody today."

Mac
05-20-2010, 04:35 PM
My thoughts .............. Niether one of these people had anything to do with slavery. the one was not a slave , and the second never owned a slave. I dont see the point in having dinner . Pretty dumb in my opinion but thats just me.

My Grandfather fought in WWII , that does not make me a soldier , it doesnt make me a military anything , Im sure he put a few bullets into more than a few japs. So does that mean i should go find ole Ping Pong living in tokyo and sit down and have coffee ? uhmmmmm no

To that i say " Hey , guess what , it wasnt me , im not taking fault for it . " its like saying we need to go find any living relatives of adolf hitler and make them pay for his screw ups .

Its dumb.

TexasRN
05-20-2010, 04:52 PM
My thoughts .............. Niether one of these people had anything to do with slavery. the one was not a slave , and the second never owned a slave. I dont see the point in having dinner . Pretty dumb in my opinion but thats just me.

My Grandfather fought in WWII , that does not make me a soldier , it doesnt make me a military anything , Im sure he put a few bullets into more than a few japs. So does that mean i should go find ole Ping Pong living in tokyo and sit down and have coffee ? uhmmmmm no

To that i say " Hey , guess what , it wasnt me , im not taking fault for it . " its like saying we need to go find any living relatives of adolf hitler and make them pay for his screw ups .

Its dumb.


:laugh: Talk about sig worthy lines!


I am with you though, Mac. I don't see a point in it. Now if it were people who were family members of those in the 1960s who were rioting and part of the segregation issues I could see how it would be relevant to today's generations. That makes much more sense to me than to have 2 people have dinner and discuss history that was so long ago that we have to research it to find out if family members were even a part of it.


~Amy

flo
05-20-2010, 05:14 PM
I am sick and tired of being portrayed as a victimizer simply because I'm white. I find THAT racist and offensive. Slavery was abolished 150 years ago.

I don't hold Dave responsible for the potato famine and, believe me, I have strong feelings about that.

I think every American with a conscience has acknowledged and rued the abomination of slavery and the terrible abuses that arose from it. If people truly wanted "unity" and "brotherhood" they would move on. But for some, NOTHING will ever repay the debt they perceive is owed to them.

flo
05-20-2010, 05:20 PM
And for the record, there were 5 times the number of Union soldiers fighting against slavery than there were slave owners.

Shoots like a girl
05-20-2010, 06:13 PM
I agree, this is stupid. I owe only for MY OWN sins and those I have sinned against and no one else. There is nothing I can do to change the past. I have alot of african american friends and NONE of them feel I owe them anything other than that 5 bucks I borrowed from one of them today! :w00t:

Twinsmama
05-20-2010, 06:17 PM
My attention faded out in about the 3rd paragraph but I think I got the general idea. I apologize for my behavior only. I think it is ridiculous to apologize for something you had no control over.

Chuck
05-20-2010, 06:31 PM
I would have a hard time calling what they did stupid. I personally have no feelings regarding the issue of slavery and have no idea if my family was part of it or not. I wouldn't care one way or the other.

However... if reconnecting and having a dinner or become friends brings some peace or closure to some people it's not my place to speak out against it. I certainly see no harm in it.

rearnakedchoke
05-20-2010, 06:38 PM
all depends on who is picking up the check ... really ... i really don't think it is needed or at least not news worthy ... i mean, white people made enough amends voting in the current president ... LOL

Miss Foxy
05-20-2010, 06:54 PM
Oh brother!! My gosh whats wrong with these people? Get over it and move the funk on! Btw I was asked the other day if I am racist, because I have a 3leaf clover tattoo on my right foot.. I was like "ex-squeeze me?"... I am freakin' brown do I look like I am a white supremacist?!! I swear people need to put all the attention and energy of whining over racism and educate their "race".......

Chris F
05-20-2010, 07:36 PM
And for the record, there were 5 times the number of Union soldiers fighting against slavery than there were slave owners.

care to cite your source on this. The turth is most soliders in the North refused to fight for the "darkies" as they called them. This is why it was not a war aim in the start. Abe used the emanciaption proclamation (which frees no one btw) to incite the South and hope for a slave rebeliion which never came. MOst slaves in the South were treated really well and were taken care better then any Nortehrn factory worker. This idea the Civil War was about slavery is a myth perpetuated by stupid football coaches who teach history in schools. I worte my masters thessis on reace relation in the South and was amazed on the primary source I found and how most soldiers from the North were more racist then those in the South.

Chris F
05-20-2010, 07:40 PM
Oh brother!! My gosh whats wrong with these people? Get over it and move the funk on! Btw I was asked the other day if I am racist, because I have a 3leaf clover tattoo on my right foot.. I was like "ex-squeeze me?"... I am freakin' brown do I look like I am a white supremacist?!! I swear people need to put all the attention and energy of whining over racism and educate their "race".......

symbols get mistaken a lot. The clove is at times a sign of Irish pride and you get no whiter:laugh: then that. Its sorta like all the idiots out there that assume a Confederate flag means hate and racism (thanks to hollywood) when it was the American flag that flew over the slave ships.

Blade
05-20-2010, 10:08 PM
This whole thing is just ridiculous, but while they're at it maybe the kin of slaves might also like to meet up with the kin of the African tribal chiefs who were responsible for selling a sizeable proportion of their own people to the white slave traders in the first place. Anyway, I'm off to daub offensive graffiti on the gravestone of my great great great grandfather as payback for him choosing such a crappy place for himself and future generations to live.

NateR
05-20-2010, 10:39 PM
I am sick and tired of being portrayed as a victimizer simply because I'm white. I find THAT racist and offensive. Slavery was abolished 150 years ago.

Exactly. We have nothing to make amends for.

Most people don't realize that the very first attempt to abolish slavery in America was started in 1777, just one year after the signing of the Declaration of Independence. So, it's an issue that America was trying to solve from the very beginning.

What's also interesting is that the arguments that the slave-owners used to defend slavery are the same arguments that the Pro-Choice movement makes today to defend abortion (y'know that whole thing about "legislating morality").

Anyways, I have family members that were exterminated in Auschwitz, but do I feel that the citizens of modern Germany owe me anything at all? No. The blacks need to put slavery in the past and get over it.

Garandshooter
05-20-2010, 11:36 PM
I agree, this is stupid. I owe only for MY OWN sins and those I have sinned against and no one else. There is nothing I can do to change the past. I have alot of african american friends and NONE of them feel I owe them anything other than that 5 bucks I borrowed from one of them today! :w00t:

BUT we do pay for the sins of our fathers. If you look at the history of Israel, and what is mentioned about generations paying for what their forefathers did. Slavery was never called evil by God. The verse about Masters treating slaves well, and slaves being obediant comes to mind. However you can't declare yourself a nation of God in which all men are created equal, and keep slaves. That's when I would call it a sin.
The racial devide in this country is a way in which we pay for the sins of our forefathers.
That being said, pull up your pant's, speak propper english, and stop walking as slow as possible in front of my car. If you do these things I'll be less inclined towards racial slurs.:laugh:

flo
05-20-2010, 11:56 PM
I fact-check myself, ChrisF, you don't need to worry on that score. But just to be polite ~

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_cens…
The Civil War Home Page
Results from the 1860 Census
Slaves: 3,950,528
Slaveholders: 393,975

http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.h…
The Price in Blood!
Casualties in the Civil War

The Union armies had from 2,500,000 to 2,750,000 men. Their losses, by the best estimates...
Total 360,222

flo
05-20-2010, 11:59 PM
This whole thing is just ridiculous, but while they're at it maybe the kin of slaves might also like to meet up with the kin of the African tribal chiefs who were responsible for selling a sizeable proportion of their own people to the white slave traders in the first place.

Exactly.

flo
05-21-2010, 12:02 AM
Shoot, I must have mucked up the URLs. :ashamed: Sorry.

If you really need me to find a link for you to back up those numbers I will. As for the intent of every Union soldier, of course I don't know what was in their mind. Neither does anyone else.

flo
05-21-2010, 12:04 AM
Here is the correct link, sorry for so many consecutive comments...:unsure-1:

http://www.civil-war.net/

NateR
05-21-2010, 12:04 AM
BUT we do pay for the sins of our fathers. If you look at the history of Israel, and what is mentioned about generations paying for what their forefathers did. Slavery was never called evil by God. The verse about Masters treating slaves well, and slaves being obediant comes to mind. However you can't declare yourself a nation of God in which all men are created equal, and keep slaves. That's when I would call it a sin.
The racial devide in this country is a way in which we pay for the sins of our forefathers.
That being said, pull up your pant's, speak propper english, and stop walking as slow as possible in front of my car. If you do these things I'll be less inclined towards racial slurs.:laugh:

"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." (Deut. 24:16)

Slavery has existed for thousands of years and was pretty much just a fact of life back in Biblical times. However, it was not the institution that we think of today as slavery. Most forms of slavery were temporary and existed to allow the slaves to pay off debt (making todays' credit card industry the modern equivalent of slavery). Many people were also slaves by choice because they had served their masters for years and were released, but chose to stay in slavery to that master out of love.

It wasn't until Darwin's book, The Origin of Species, that slavery became a race issue. That's when the idea that some races were "sub-human" and were destined to serve (or be exterminated by) the "more evolved" races, was endorsed by the scientific community of the time.

So, the institution of slavery during George Washington's day was not the same institution that existed in Abraham Lincoln's day.

J.B.
05-21-2010, 12:30 AM
I would have a hard time calling what they did stupid. I personally have no feelings regarding the issue of slavery and have no idea if my family was part of it or not. I wouldn't care one way or the other.

However... if reconnecting and having a dinner or become friends brings some peace or closure to some people it's not my place to speak out against it. I certainly see no harm in it.

I agree with this.

I don't know and don't care about my roots when it comes to slavery.

Whats done is done, but if discussing it can bring people together in a positive way, then I am all for it.

Chuck
05-21-2010, 01:25 AM
Its dumb....Why?
I don't see a point in it.....It was just a shared meal...
I am sick and tired of being portrayed as a victimizer simply because I'm white.....Did you get that impression out of this article???
this is stupid......Why?
whats wrong with these people?....Who are "these" people? Remember it was the white woman who asked for the meeting.
Get over it and move the funk on!...... Get over what????
This whole thing is just ridiculous.........What "thing" is ridiculous? People having dinner together?

I have now read and reread that article 4 times and I have no idea what you all are commenting on. What did you all read in this article that's got you so worked up???

It's like you're all channeling the Spirit of Dave and reading 1 thing and then reacting to something that's not even there......... :unsure-1:

I'm not trying to attack any of you nor am I trying to start an argument. My questions above in blue are sincere. I truly don't understand what you read in this article that initiated those responses....

J.B.
05-21-2010, 01:31 AM
Its dumb....Why?
I don't see a point in it.....It was just a shared meal...
I am sick and tired of being portrayed as a victimizer simply because I'm white.....Did you get that impression out of this article???
this is stupid......Why?
whats wrong with these people?....Who are "these" people? Remember it was the white woman who asked for the meeting.
Get over it and move the funk on!...... Get over what????
This whole thing is just ridiculous.........What "thing" is ridiculous? People having dinner together?

I have now read and reread that article 4 times and I have no idea what you all are commenting on. What did you all read in this article that's got you so worked up???

It's like you're all channeling the Spirit of Dave and reading 1 thing and then reacting to something that's not even there......... :unsure-1:

I'm not trying to attack any of you nor am I trying to start an argument. My questions above in blue are sincere. I truly don't understand what you read in this article that initiated those responses....

Nobody is channeling the spirit of Dave...:laugh:

I absolutely agree with you on this one Chuck, but I also completely understand where everybody else is coming from when they basically say they are sick and tired of hearing about it.

Chris F
05-21-2010, 01:42 AM
I fact-check myself, ChrisF, you don't need to worry on that score. But just to be polite ~

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_cens…
The Civil War Home Page
Results from the 1860 Census
Slaves: 3,950,528
Slaveholders: 393,975

http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.h…
The Price in Blood!
Casualties in the Civil War

The Union armies had from 2,500,000 to 2,750,000 men. Their losses, by the best estimates...
Total 360,222

The census does not really tell us why one fought the war. Most journal and diaries we have prove the North had no desire to fight for the ending of slavery. Maybe I miss understood you but there is no primary source out there that would say that many fought ot end slavery that was not added to text books till the civil rights era.

Chris F
05-21-2010, 01:44 AM
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." (Deut. 24:16)

Slavery has existed for thousands of years and was pretty much just a fact of life back in Biblical times. However, it was not the institution that we think of today as slavery. Most forms of slavery were temporary and existed to allow the slaves to pay off debt (making todays' credit card industry the modern equivalent of slavery). Many people were also slaves by choice because they had served their masters for years and were released, but chose to stay in slavery to that master out of love.

It wasn't until Darwin's book, The Origin of Species, that slavery became a race issue. That's when the idea that some races were "sub-human" and were destined to serve (or be exterminated by) the "more evolved" races, was endorsed by the scientific community of the time.

So, the institution of slavery during George Washington's day was not the same institution that existed in Abraham Lincoln's day.

NateR thats to deep for most. People want to believe what their football coaches taught them and what the History Channel says

Garandshooter
05-21-2010, 01:49 AM
[QUOTE=NateR;117661]"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." (Deut. 24:16)



being guilty of, and suffering the consequences of, are different matters. God may not hold me individually accountable for the sins of my community, but I do sometimes suffer the consequence. So we could change my original thought to, we suffer the conequences for what generations before us have done.

adamt
05-21-2010, 01:50 AM
my ancestors freed the slaves, i think kobe and lebron need to be passing some dough my way

white people enslaved em but white people freed em too.

and btw fyi, white people went over to africa and bought them from black people, because one african tribe would go out conquer and enslave another tribe then sell them to whitey, so it's not our fault.

think about it, which is easier, sail halfway across the world and conquer and capture----without killing mind you--- a bunch of people that are .... let's face it... more atheletic but not as smart as you are ....on their own home turf!!!! OR stay at home and do your own work....

how many slaves do you think the forefathers actually captured themselves????

J.B.
05-21-2010, 02:01 AM
my ancestors freed the slaves, i think kobe and lebron need to be passing some dough my way

white people enslaved em but white people freed em too.

and btw fyi, white people went over to africa and bought them from black people, because one african tribe would go out conquer and enslave another tribe then sell them to whitey, so it's not our fault.

think about it, which is easier, sail halfway across the world and conquer and capture----without killing mind you--- a bunch of people that are .... let's face it... more atheletic but not as smart as you are ....on their own home turf!!!! OR stay at home and do your own work....

how many slaves do you think the forefathers actually captured themselves????

Well...it's not any of OUR fault because none of us were alive.

However if you are trying to suggest that it's somehow okay to buy slaves if the people that are being sold are being sold by other people of their own race, then I have to adamantly disagree.

Kobe and Lebron don't owe you anything, even if you happen to be a Lakers or a Cavs fan. Kobe and Lebron are true examples of capitalism and the American dream.

Oddtodd76
05-21-2010, 02:03 AM
My thoughts .............. Niether one of these people had anything to do with slavery. the one was not a slave , and the second never owned a slave. I dont see the point in having dinner . Pretty dumb in my opinion but thats just me.

My Grandfather fought in WWII , that does not make me a soldier , it doesnt make me a military anything , Im sure he put a few bullets into more than a few japs. So does that mean i should go find ole Ping Pong living in tokyo and sit down and have coffee ? uhmmmmm no

To that i say " Hey , guess what , it wasnt me , im not taking fault for it . " its like saying we need to go find any living relatives of adolf hitler and make them pay for his screw ups .

Its dumb.

hahahahaha...i haven't got a chance to check the forum lately...this was the first post i popped open. That made my day right off the bat!

adamt
05-21-2010, 02:13 AM
Well...it's not any of OUR fault because none of us were alive.

However if you are trying to suggest that it's somehow okay to buy slaves if the people that are being sold are being sold by other people of their own race, then I have to adamantly disagree.

Kobe and Lebron don't owe you anything, even if you happen to be a Lakers or a Cavs fan. Kobe and Lebron are true examples of capitalism and the American dream.



HERE HERE!!!!


I concur

it was tongue in cheek, merely following their logic and letting it run the course to the end of an idea, not just picking and choosing the points i wanted to make with said logic.


but the question remains..... if white people owe blacks or indians something for past sins, then why don't they owe the people who freed them something?

J.B.
05-21-2010, 02:20 AM
HERE HERE!!!!


I concur

it was tongue in cheek, merely following their logic and letting it run the course to the end of an idea, not just picking and choosing the points i wanted to make with said logic.


but the question remains..... if white people owe blacks or indians something for past sins, then why don't they owe the people who freed them something?

It's a fair point, and I totally understand what your saying. :)

It's a big circle-jerk, and that's why most people (myself included) basically tune out when these kind of stories get sensationalized. I do agree with Chuck though, it's not a big deal and if something positive came out of two people making that connection then I think it's a good thing.

adamt
05-21-2010, 02:36 AM
It's a fair point, and I totally understand what your saying. :)

It's a big circle-jerk, and that's why most people (myself included) basically tune out when these kind of stories get sensationalized. I do agree with Chuck though, it's not a big deal and if something positive came out of two people making that connection then I think it's a good thing.

who you calling a jerk????







j/k

:)


you and chuck would have a valid point if it wasn't on cnn, but it is, and that means it is more than just two people getting together. How did cnn hear about it? I'm sure they're not the first ones to ever do this. And they had to sign releases to let it air on tv or internet, so it is more than just two people meeting. But i understand where you and chuck are coming from.

J.B.
05-21-2010, 02:42 AM
you and chuck would have a valid point if it wasn't on cnn, but it is, and that means it is more than just two people getting together. How did cnn hear about it? I'm sure they're not the first ones to ever do this. And they had to sign releases to let it air on tv or internet, so it is more than just two people meeting. But i understand where you and chuck are coming from.

That was actually something I was going to respond to in my last post, but I am surfing like 4 sites right now and I wanted to keep my response short, lol

In my opinion, a lot of times in this world it seems like the people who are in the minority in their view are often the ones with the loudest voices.

Like right now, all people are hearing about is how ALL these people are protesting against Arizona for our new illegal immigration laws, but you never hear about the polls that show MOST Americans actually agree with what Arizona is doing.

That's just one example, but there are many others.

adamt
05-21-2010, 02:44 AM
That was actually something I was going to respond to in my last post, but I am surfing like 4 sites right now and I wanted to keep my response short, lol

In my opinion, a lot of times in this world it seems like the people who are in the minority in their view are often the ones with the loudest voices.

Like right now, all people are hearing about is how ALL these people are protesting against Arizona for our new illegal immigration laws, but you never hear about the polls that show MOST Americans actually agree with what Arizona is doing.

That's just one example, but there are many others.

well sounds like we agree and have concluded this thread :) that was easy

J.B.
05-21-2010, 02:45 AM
well sounds like we agree and have concluded this thread :) that was easy

:cool:

Spiritwalker
05-21-2010, 03:04 AM
Thanks for the feedback..

I personally know that my great great grandfather had slaves... I don't know if they treated them well or not.

What I do know is that I don't feel that I owe anyone anything from the past as far as slavery goes...

Now if I met a person that had their "great great whatever".. owned by my "great greats"... I would say wow...that was eff'ed up... but I don't owe them anything.

flo
05-21-2010, 03:57 AM
I am sick and tired of being portrayed as a victimizer simply because I'm white.....Did you get that impression out of this article???


Since you highlighted one of my comments, Chuck, I will tell you why I reacted as I did.

Let's start with the 2nd paragragh of the article:

She scrolled through a mental Rolodex of relatives who might flip out. Her brothers had already asked her: Why would you want to meet the family of those who held our loved ones in bondage?

What, 5 generations ago?

Betty had faced down racism, and white people, before.

Can you imagine turning that statement around?

Betty was mega-busy on a book tour, giving speeches about love and brotherhood. At schools, black children would ask, "How come you don't hate white people?"


Still, she and others in her family couldn't help but wonder about Phoebe's motives. Were the descendants of the slave master coming to steal from them one last time?

"We've found that building connections is a critical piece of what's needed for healing on a personal level, on a family level and on a national level."


See, now I find that to be just bizarre. I really don't think blacks are walking around feeling that they need healing from slavery.

"We are all still impacted by this history," Hutchison said. "There are still big racial gaps -- in access to education, jobs, health care, just to name a few. All of us, all our communities, have stories about race. Coming to the Table tries to create a safe space for those stories to come out, so we can learn about each other and move forward together."

Now we're getting to the heart of the matter. I personally think bringing race into everything is widening the divide - not drawing us closer. Bad things have happened to ALL ethnicities. Let's deal with our common problems of today.

I also think it's BS when I hear people say "I'm color blind" or "I don't see any colors", which is just ludicrous and condescending. That's the WHOLE PROBLEM - there's nothing wrong with any color, we are what we are!!! We're all different. Let's quit focusing on the differences and we will find many similarities.

Lastly:

"Just having a white person get up and acknowledge there were harms done in the past seemed to be meaningful," she says.

I think that's a crock. How is it meaningful? I think we (as white people) are apologizing for it all the time. Is there really a person that has never heard a "white person get up and acknowledge there were harms done in the past"?

I think it's great if these 2 woman make a connection, good for them, we certainly need more brotherhood in our troubled times.

flo
05-21-2010, 04:02 AM
The census does not really tell us why one fought the war. Most journal and diaries we have prove the North had no desire to fight for the ending of slavery. Maybe I miss understood you but there is no primary source out there that would say that many fought ot end slavery that was not added to text books till the civil rights era.
Well, you did your thesis on it, Chris, and I certainly haven't read any diaries or journals. So I was wrong when I said all 2 mil. Union soldiers fought for ending slavery. I was generalizing but my point was that slave owners were a small minority in the general population.

Chris F
05-21-2010, 04:46 AM
Well, you did your thesis on it, Chris, and I certainly haven't read any diaries or journals. So I was wrong when I said all 2 mil. Union soldiers fought for ending slavery. I was generalizing but my point was that slave owners were a small minority in the general population.

you are ceratily right they were a minority. In fact most slave owners had one slave and worked side by side with them. But I see your point better now and understand what you meant. It was a generalization for sure and a typical one made today. Just not very factual. I should have asked for clarification before I got on the soapbox

flo
05-21-2010, 05:17 AM
you are ceratily right they were a minority. In fact most slave owners had one slave and worked side by side with them. But I see your point better now and understand what you meant. It was a generalization for sure and a typical one made today. Just not very factual. I should have asked for clarification before I got on the soapbox

No problem, bro. :)

It's an emotional subject, eh?

MattHughesRocks
05-21-2010, 05:20 AM
I'm with you Mac. I've seen in a family history book of my dead ancestors that died in consentration camps. I have no desire to meet with the family of whoever put them there. I almost want to say " who cares" but it isn't that I don't care it's just that was then, this is now People need to move on from the past and quit dewelling in it and saying "poor me". That's where racisim comes from.People too stuck and stupid to move on.

My thoughts .............. Niether one of these people had anything to do with slavery. the one was not a slave , and the second never owned a slave. I dont see the point in having dinner . Pretty dumb in my opinion but thats just me.

My Grandfather fought in WWII , that does not make me a soldier , it doesnt make me a military anything , Im sure he put a few bullets into more than a few japs. So does that mean i should go find ole Ping Pong living in tokyo and sit down and have coffee ? uhmmmmm no

To that i say " Hey , guess what , it wasnt me , im not taking fault for it . " its like saying we need to go find any living relatives of adolf hitler and make them pay for his screw ups .

Its dumb.

Miss Foxy
05-21-2010, 04:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback..

I personally know that my great great grandfather had slaves... I don't know if they treated them well or not.

What I do know is that I don't feel that I owe anyone anything from the past as far as slavery goes...

Now if I met a person that had their "great great whatever".. owned by my "great greats"... I would say wow...that was eff'ed up... but I don't owe them anything.

My moms family were mostly Nazi's, and I empathize with people who have lost family members I cannot be sorry for what my kin folk has done. I can only be accountable for my actions..:cool: