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Preach
02-21-2009, 03:20 PM
If you spent 1 million dollars everyday since JESUS was born, you wouldn't spend as much as Obama and the Federal Government is spending on this stimulas package.

We will never pay for this and it just might be the death of our country. Way to go Dems. You talk about heading down a long terrible road. This should scare every human being in the World regardless of your country, this will affect everyone. Don't Blame me I voted McCain

Oddtodd76
02-21-2009, 03:52 PM
Obama campaigned against the republicans stating that bush has had the highest budget defecit in the history of the US. Obama has tripled that within 30 days! 30 freaking days!

rockdawg21
02-21-2009, 04:14 PM
It is sad, expect our quality of life to drop drastically.

rearnakedchoke
02-21-2009, 06:48 PM
I think the money for the stilmulus package is not a bad idea, but the money for the auto industry bailout is the big mistake ... they should let the american auto industry die if they can run their companies right ... at least the stimulus plan is for most people, the auto bailout are only for those in the business of selling inferior products

Preach
02-21-2009, 07:00 PM
I think the money for the stilmulus package is not a bad idea, but the money for the auto industry bailout is the big mistake ... they should let the american auto industry die if they can run their companies right ... at least the stimulus plan is for most people, the auto bailout are only for those in the business of selling inferior products

I disagree and also dont like you very much

rearnakedchoke
02-21-2009, 07:05 PM
I disagree and also dont like you very much
hahaha .... so you agree with pissing away money to people who can't run a company properly than to spread money out to most of the people to try and spark the entire economy rather than just one sector?

well, i think both ideas are probably not the best, but if i would have to choose one it would be the stimulus package ... but you are just a hypocrite who thinks spending money on the auto industry is a good idea because it probably effects you in a positive way .... which i'll say again, makes you a hypocrite .....

you don't like me very well? that really upsets me .. LOL

kyle
02-21-2009, 07:42 PM
I think the money for the stimulus package is not a bad idea, but the money for the auto industry bailout is the big mistake ... they should let the american auto industry die if they can run their companies right ... at least the stimulus plan is for most people, the auto bailout are only for those in the business of selling inferior products

wow yeah they should let the car industries die. With all those lost jobs that would really help boost the economy then all their homes will go into foreclosure then we will get another stimulas to help these other people in foreclosure. big companies like GM brings in lots of jobs.

I believe in helping the people that need it I do agree with that. I dont think we need to help the people that bought away to expensive house and could never afford it in the first place. Oh yeah and that economic stimulus check we got last year.....that turned out not doing much for the economy so i think jobs need to be created before giving money to the people and if that means businesses saved than im for it. but most of the stuff in this stimulus is pork spending and probably wont do much so i really would be surprised if it actually help out our economy.

medic92
02-21-2009, 07:45 PM
The stimulus package is a giant bloated mess that even Obama has admitted might not work. Expanding government and giving away money encourages people to just sit back and wait for the government to take care of them rather than spurring them to work harder and spend smarter. Massive government spending will depress the economy rather than stimulate it, increasing costs for everyone for generations to come.

I also disagree with government bailing out the auto industry. Where does it end?

It's an ugly road that sees the government eventually taking over the banking industry, regulating salaries (not just for executives either, just wait for it).

Now that companies that accept bailout funds are going to have executive salaries regulated, how long before that precedent allows government to set salaries in other areas?

I'm a truck driver. The price of hauling and delivering freight affects consumer prices of almost all goods in this country. How long before the government decides that the cost of hauling freight is just too much and decides to regulate the amount that trucking companies can charge to deliver freight?

I've never been literally afraid of the direction a government was taking this country. I always thought we could survive four or eight years of almost any government, but now I'm not so sure. Obama is laying the groundwork to socialize our government and country, and putting that cat back in the bag once it's out is going to be nearly impossible. The role of government as envisioned by the founding fathers is long gone and if we don't reverse this trend, the eventual collapse of our country is inevitable.

hizo64
02-21-2009, 07:51 PM
I love threads with fights!! :punch: and yeah I think the Dems have officially killed this country...

NateR
02-21-2009, 07:53 PM
The stimulus package is a giant bloated mess that even Obama has admitted might not work. Expanding government and giving away money encourages people to just sit back and wait for the government to take care of them rather than spurring them to work harder and spend smarter. Massive government spending will depress the economy rather than stimulate it, increasing costs for everyone for generations to come.

I also disagree with government bailing out the auto industry. Where does it end?

It's an ugly road that sees the government eventually taking over the banking industry, regulating salaries (not just for executives either, just wait for it).

Now that companies that accept bailout funds are going to have executive salaries regulated, how long before that precedent allows government to set salaries in other areas?

I'm a truck driver. The price of hauling and delivering freight affects consumer prices of almost all goods in this country. How long before the government decides that the cost of hauling freight is just too much and decides to regulate the amount that trucking companies can charge to deliver freight?

I've never been literally afraid of the direction a government was taking this country. I always thought we could survive four or eight years of almost any government, but now I'm not so sure. Obama is laying the groundwork to socialize our government and country, and putting that cat back in the bag once it's out is going to be nearly impossible. The role of government as envisioned by the founding fathers is long gone and if we don't reverse this trend, the eventual collapse of our country is inevitable.

If that didn't scare you enough, Obama is politicizing the census. Which will allow the Democrats to create for themselves a false majority in the American population and alter the number of representatives each state gets. So liberal states can get more power in the government and conservative states will lose votes. Basically it's a way for the Dems to keep themselves in power forever.

kyle
02-21-2009, 08:10 PM
I also disagree with government bailing out the auto industry. Where does it end?

I dont like the idea either but you can't just let them die. A lot of lost jobs there. I think the higher ups need to be looked into on exactly what the problem is and if its them they should be let go and see how to fix it. and the government can quit getting harder on them about emissions because they have to spend more money on finding newer ways to lower the emissions.......

On a side note can you imagine all the imported car driving around :wacko: I know toyota has a car factory here and their doin good and all but did they have to ruin NASCAR :sad:

Primadawn
02-21-2009, 08:18 PM
I disagree and also dont like you very much


:laugh: Concise! Short, sweet and right to the point! I love you Ben! :laugh:

NateR
02-21-2009, 08:40 PM
I dont like the idea either but you can't just let them die. A lot of lost jobs there. I think the higher ups need to be looked into on exactly what the problem is and if its them they should be let go and see how to fix it. and the government can quit getting harder on them about emissions because they have to spend more money on finding newer ways to lower the emissions.......

On a side note can you imagine all the imported car driving around :wacko: I know toyota has a car factory here and their doin good and all but did they have to ruin NASCAR :sad:

I disagreed with all of the bailouts. The government needs to stay out of private industry. If GM, Chrysler and Ford have mismanaged their affairs so badly that they're companies are failing, then they need to be allowed to go into bankruptcy. And that doesn't necessarily mean the end of the company, it's just a forced restructuring.

Marvel Comics (the company who created Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, X-Men, etc.) declared bankruptcy back in the late 90s when the comic book market collapsed. That forced them to rethink how they do EVERYTHING and, as a result, comic books today are much better quality and Marvel is actually producing some of the most profitable movies in film history (Spider-Man 1-3, Iron Man, Hulk, X-Men 1-3, etc.).

So bankruptcy would not necessarily be the end of Ford, GM and Chrysler; but it would be the end of them in their current forms. However, you can bet that the cars that they would be producing post-bankruptcy would not be the gas guzzling wastes that we see today.

MattHughesRocks
02-21-2009, 09:04 PM
I agree. If everyone wasn't so effin' greedy they never would have gotten into this mess.Why do the people high up in companies have to make millions, or even billions when they can live just fine off of hundreds of thousands :laugh:

medic92
02-21-2009, 09:04 PM
I dont like the idea either but you can't just let them die.

Sure you can. Do you honestly think those plants would stay empty? Other more successful car companies like Toyota would jump at the chance to increase both production and market share in the U.S.

A lot of lost jobs there. I think the higher ups need to be looked into on exactly what the problem is and if its them they should be let go and see how to fix it. and the government can quit getting harder on them about emissions because they have to spend more money on finding newer ways to lower the emissions.......

It's not the government's job to provide employment or guarantee success in business. If the companies go under because of mismanagement, that's the fault of the company, not the government. It's bad for the employees, but they also bear some of the blame for allowing and encouraging the UAW to extort ridiculous wages and benefit packages from the car companies. When an unskilled labor position pays $50,000 a year, something's wrong.

On a side note can you imagine all the imported car driving around :wacko: I know toyota has a car factory here and their doin good and all but did they have to ruin NASCAR :sad:

It's the classic American way. Build a better product at a reasonable price and you'll be successful. Build a marginally decent product at an inflatable price and the market will eat you alive. The idea that big companies should get help from the government just because they're big companies is ridiculous. There are options such as bankruptcy court that can allow them to reorganize and restructure so they can be more successful, and that's all they should get.

medic92
02-21-2009, 09:07 PM
I agree. If everyone wasn't so effin' greedy they never would have gotten into this mess.Why do the people high up in companies have to make millions, or even billions when they can live just fine off of hundreds of thousands :laugh:

Same reason we're not satisfied with being comfortable. No matter how much you have, if someone asks you how much you want the answer will be "just a little bit more".

You have a nice car, but you'd like something just a little nicer. Your house is nice but you'd like a little bigger yard, more bathrooms, a nicer garage, etc. Your job is ok but you'd like a little more vacation time, shorter hours, nicer desk/office/computer, etc...

No matter what people have, they're almost never satisfied. I think it's human nature to want to improve your position no matter how good the position is. If you're the best at something, you'll start looking at other areas to challenge yourself (such as moving up and down in weight classes in MMA). You know what I mean?

matthughesfan21
02-21-2009, 09:43 PM
I disagreed with all of the bailouts. The government needs to stay out of private industry. If GM, Chrysler and Ford have mismanaged their affairs so badly that they're companies are failing, then they need to be allowed to go into bankruptcy. And that doesn't necessarily mean the end of the company, it's just a forced restructuring.

Marvel Comics (the company who created Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, X-Men, etc.) declared bankruptcy back in the late 90s when the comic book market collapsed. That forced them to rethink how they do EVERYTHING and, as a result, comic books today are much better quality and Marvel is actually producing some of the most profitable movies in film history (Spider-Man 1-3, Iron Man, Hulk, X-Men 1-3, etc.).

So bankruptcy would not necessarily be the end of Ford, GM and Chrysler; but it would be the end of them in their current forms. However, you can bet that the cars that they would be producing post-bankruptcy would not be the gas guzzling wastes that we see today.
agreed, if they declare chapter 11 bankruptcy, that allows them to restructure the way they do things, it wouldn't be good to lose all those jobs, but at the same time, how can you ensure that money goes to the right place; they have mismanaged one of the top industries in america this badly, whose to say that extra money won't get mismanaged as well, more money won't help if their corporate structure is still poor....Oh and how do we know that money will go to the actual business...Remember the bank bailout and reports came out that some of that money went to huge bonuses for the CEO's...are we so sure that the auto industry won't do something similar?

Preach
02-21-2009, 10:04 PM
I think the money for the stilmulus package is not a bad idea, but the money for the auto industry bailout is the big mistake ... they should let the american auto industry die if they can run their companies right ... at least the stimulus plan is for most people, the auto bailout are only for those in the business of selling inferior products


Thats why I dont like you that kind of comment about American products is absurd.
I disagree with bailouts totally. But if you give a bailout to the banks why not auto industry. See what I am getting at is this should have never started but since it has where does it stop. Now they want One National Bank comeon the last thing we need is more government. But regretfully thats the opposite of Democrat platforms that stress Bigger Government. And to top it off we have a President who is a Socialise

matthughesfan21
02-21-2009, 10:08 PM
Thats why I dont like you that kind of comment about American products is absurd.
I disagree with bailouts totally. But if you give a bailout to the banks why not auto industry. See what I am getting at is this should have never started but since it has where does it stop. Now they want One National Bank comeon the last thing we need is more government. But regretfully thats the opposite of Democrat platforms that stress Bigger Government. And to top it off we have a President who is a Socialisetwo wrongs don't make a right

Preach
02-21-2009, 10:16 PM
two wrongs don't make a right
I understand that but what I am saying is that every political figure has a group that backs them. You see where I am going? And they will scratch their fellow Political coworkers only if they will scratch theirs. It's yeah I will help you get your bill passed but you have to help me with mine. It is a visious cycle but that is American Government. This is out of control

rockdawg21
02-21-2009, 11:23 PM
Like Drago said about Apollo in Rocky 4, "If he dies, he dies." Same should be said for industries that have bad practices. If a mom & pop operation dies for the same reason as the big businesses, they don't get a bailout, they go bankrupt and/or have to rethink their strategy in order to earn business again.

rearnakedchoke
02-22-2009, 04:49 AM
Thats why I dont like you that kind of comment about American products is absurd.
I disagree with bailouts totally. But if you give a bailout to the banks why not auto industry. See what I am getting at is this should have never started but since it has where does it stop. Now they want One National Bank comeon the last thing we need is more government. But regretfully thats the opposite of Democrat platforms that stress Bigger Government. And to top it off we have a President who is a Socialise
hey, just because i think american cars are inferior, doesnt' mean i think all american products are inferior .. plain and simple , american cars are shyte and not worth the metal they are made of .... people who peddle american autos are peddling crap and need to find a new occupation .... cuz i can just as simply gather the crap from the sewers and try and get the govt to bail me out for selling shtye ....

i feel bad for all the people that may lose jobs .. but there have been many indicators to the big three showing that their product is crap, they should have realised it, they didn't and now they should just be allowed to shrivel up and die like the rest of the companies that haven't been able to adapt to the level of products on the markets

matthughesfan21
02-22-2009, 04:59 AM
hey, just because i think american cars are inferior, doesnt' mean i think all american products are inferior .. plain and simple , american cars are shyte and not worth the metal they are made of .... people who peddle american autos are peddling crap and need to find a new occupation .... cuz i can just as simply gather the crap from the sewers and try and get the govt to bail me out for selling shtye ....

i feel bad for all the people that may lose jobs .. but there have been many indicators to the big three showing that their product is crap, they should have realised it, they didn't and now they should just be allowed to shrivel up and die like the rest of the companies that haven't been able to adapt to the level of products on the marketsI think these comment here is total BS, where-as some foreign cars may get better gas mileage, I do believe that there are still plenty of awesome american cars out there, the viper, camero, corvette, gto, corvette, etc. are all awesome, sweet cars, and no matter where they are made, that doesn't change anything about the quality of product at hand

matthughesfan21
02-22-2009, 05:02 AM
I understand that but what I am saying is that every political figure has a group that backs them. You see where I am going? And they will scratch their fellow Political coworkers only if they will scratch theirs. It's yeah I will help you get your bill passed but you have to help me with mine. It is a visious cycle but that is American Government. This is out of control
i get what you are saying, and with the way you say it, Ben...I sort of agree with what you are saying....that is why I believe, that we should get rid of lobbyists because it just keeps this back and forth political process going...But at some point, we as a country have to realize, that this bailout didn't work, so in order to conserve our economy, we should now bailout this other industry, survival of the fittest should play a part in this process IMO, if the industry has poor practices and doesn't survive, it is their problem, let another BETTER practicing industry take their place

rearnakedchoke
02-22-2009, 05:05 AM
I think these comment here is total BS, where-as some foreign cars may get better gas mileage, I do believe that there are still plenty of awesome american cars out there, the viper, camero, corvette, gto, corvette, etc. are all awesome, sweet cars, and no matter where they are made, that doesn't change anything about the quality of product at hand

have you ever owned one of those cars??? they look nice and drive nice, but suck gas and break down like nothing else .... give anyone who drives those cars a g35, maxima, TT or 350Z and they won't go back .. the cars you mentioned were made with pride back in the day, but today, they are worthless ... they are trying to make money of the historic names of those vehicles ...

hey, nothing will make me more happy than to drive a domestic that is worth is ..my pops had an impala that had more than a million miles ... it was made in the 70's and was better than anything ... but they are skimping on quality now and that doesn't fly

Mac
02-22-2009, 05:06 AM
Its bad , and its gonna get worse , a wholeeeeee lot worse. The guy i refer to as " The Slap Bracelt " of presidents got elected and he is going to be the downfall of this great nation , Mark my words fellas, Minute men are not far off.

I call him a slap bracelt because thats all he is , a short lived fad , and pretty soon , everyone that voted for him is going to realize just how dumb and tacky it really is , just like slap bracelets of the early 90's

Mac
02-22-2009, 05:08 AM
have you ever owned one of those cars??? they look nice and drive nice, but suck gas and break down like nothing else .... give anyone who drives those cars a g35, maxima, TT or 350Z and they won't go back .. the cars you mentioned were made with pride back in the day, but today, they are worthless ... they are trying to make money of the historic names of those vehicles ...

hey, nothing will make me more happy than to drive a domestic that is worth is ..my pops had an impala that had more than a million miles ... it was made in the 70's and was better than anything ... but they are skimping on quality now and that doesn't fly

Ohhhhh horse****. Give me a light bit of automotive background yo u may have and ill still call hor****. Let me guess , youve got the High out put decal kit from autozone on your camry and you have the trilogy series of the fast and the furious.

rearnakedchoke
02-22-2009, 05:10 AM
Its bad , and its gonna get worse , a wholeeeeee lot worse. The guy i refer to as " The Slap Bracelt " of presidents got elected and he is going to be the downfall of this great nation , Mark my words fellas, Minute men are not far off.

I call him a slap bracelt because thats all he is , a short lived fad , and pretty soon , everyone that voted for him is going to realize just how dumb and tacky it really is , just like slap bracelets of the early 90's

you may be right, but you have to admit that hussein was left with a tough situation ... an economy that has been better ..... what is he supposed to do???? if he were to sit around and do nothing, people would say, he is doing nothing to help the struggling economy ... now he is trying to implement a program that GWB was trying to implement, but at a higher scale and people are saying he is doomed for failure .... what can you expect from him

Mac
02-22-2009, 05:12 AM
you may be right, but you have to admit that hussein was left with a tough situation ... an economy that has been better ..... what is he supposed to do???? if he were to sit around and do nothing, people would say, he is doing nothing to help the struggling economy ... now he is trying to implement a program that GWB was trying to implement, but at a higher scale and people are saying he is doomed for failure .... what can you expect from him

Yeah because W didnt have a tough situation when he started. FOlks are going to look back in a year and Wish George was still there.

rearnakedchoke
02-22-2009, 05:12 AM
Ohhhhh horse****. Give me a light bit of automotive background yo u may have and ill still call hor****. Let me guess , youve got the High out put decal kit from autozone on your camry and you have the trilogy series of the fast and the furious.

HUH??? ... again .. not saying the potential ain't there ... but the last domestic i owned broke down plenty of times .... i went foreign and never had as many problems .. i think the dom industry have the potential to make great vehicles, but they havent proved me right in the last decade or so ... just a fact

rearnakedchoke
02-22-2009, 05:15 AM
Yeah because W didnt have a tough situation when he started. FOlks are going to look back in a year and Wish George was still there.
EXACTLY ... osama has a massive problem right now .... is that his creation or fault ??? no, but he has to work with what he was given ... W came in and was faced with 9/11 .. he just started, didn't create the situation, but was able to implement plans he felt best that was going to diffuse the problem ...

Mac
02-22-2009, 05:15 AM
HUH??? ... again .. not saying the potential ain't there ... but the last domestic i owned broke down plenty of times .... i went foreign and never had as many problems .. i think the dom industry have the potential to make great vehicles, but they havent proved me right in the last decade or so ... just a fact



Yeah yeah yeah , There is no comparison in my book , im aroun Garages eveyday , i see what goes in and goes out , and the cost of replacement parts . I know this stuff , Jap scrap is just what its called. Jap Scrap.

rearnakedchoke
02-22-2009, 05:18 AM
Yeah yeah yeah , There is no comparison in my book , im aroun Garages eveyday , i see what goes in and goes out , and the cost of replacement parts . I know this stuff , Jap scrap is just what its called. Jap Scrap.

hey man .. proof is in the pudding .. i have a buddy who swears by domestic ..... only thing he drives is pick-ups and muscles cars .... of course domestic is king at that ..doesn't mean that caters to the mainstream .. mainstream worries about sedans and coupes and the japs currently run that business .. and imo, that is the side of the business that the domestic market has neglected ...

matthughesfan21
02-22-2009, 05:37 AM
have you ever owned one of those cars??? they look nice and drive nice, but suck gas and break down like nothing else .... give anyone who drives those cars a g35, maxima, TT or 350Z and they won't go back .. the cars you mentioned were made with pride back in the day, but today, they are worthless ... they are trying to make money of the historic names of those vehicles ...

hey, nothing will make me more happy than to drive a domestic that is worth is ..my pops had an impala that had more than a million miles ... it was made in the 70's and was better than anything ... but they are skimping on quality now and that doesn't fly
I've driven all those cars, and would gladly take domestic over foreign..the points you mentioned could be true, but the same could be said for any car...I have seen foreign cars cause people alot of problems, and I have seen domestic cards run the test of time, and vice versa, any car given the situation can run a muck, but I have drove domestice ever since I have had my license, and it has never given me any serious problems considering its 125k miles, so I will stick with what has proven best to me

Mac
02-22-2009, 05:43 AM
Yeah , i just went out and jumped in an s10 today thats been sitting in my back yard , I dont think ive had it started since last August , it has 220,000 miles on it and its a little 4 banger . I walked out there , Shooed the 40 or so Mice out of it " Litterally" Taped my pants closed so they couldnt run up my legs and drove it my last 15 miles ill ever pilot it to its new ownerlol.

matthughesfan21
02-22-2009, 05:49 AM
Yeah , i just went out and jumped in an s10 today thats been sitting in my back yard , I dont think ive had it started since last August , it has 220,000 miles on it and its a little 4 banger . I walked out there , Shooed the 40 or so Mice out of it " Litterally" Taped my pants closed so they couldnt run up my legs and drove it my last 15 miles ill ever pilot it to its new ownerlol.
haha....I have a 95 chevy blazer, I haven't driven it for over a week, I walked out there in the snow and cold, it started right up and took me to walmart and back, so i'll rely on it thank you very much, it has been really good to me, especially for a first car, so I would like to stick with domestic

Tyburn
02-22-2009, 09:50 AM
If you spent 1 million dollars everyday since JESUS was born, you wouldn't spend as much as Obama and the Federal Government is spending on this stimulas package.

We will never pay for this and it just might be the death of our country. Way to go Dems. You talk about heading down a long terrible road. This should scare every human being in the World regardless of your country, this will affect everyone. Don't Blame me I voted McCain
:sad: Brown is doing a similar thing on a smaller scale in England...and bloody NOONE Ellected him! He took the position by default after Blair left, in the same way your Vice President would take Office if something happened to the President.

The laugh of it is with Brown...all the way through the Blairite years, for over a decade he was Chancellor of the Ex-Chequer!!!! The Money man of the Government :laugh:

Tyburn
02-22-2009, 09:52 AM
I think the money for the stilmulus package is not a bad idea, but the money for the auto industry bailout is the big mistake ... they should let the american auto industry die if they can run their companies right ... at least the stimulus plan is for most people, the auto bailout are only for those in the business of selling inferior products
I dont think they should do either.

Flooding the market is a risky business, it might work, it might not. Saving the banks was needed for the rest of the world, saving every buisness is not. They should ride out the depression and let the country bounce back naturally.

Not that they care what their citizens think. :sad:

Tyburn
02-22-2009, 09:54 AM
If that didn't scare you enough, Obama is politicizing the census. Which will allow the Democrats to create for themselves a false majority in the American population and alter the number of representatives each state gets. So liberal states can get more power in the government and conservative states will lose votes. Basically it's a way for the Dems to keep themselves in power forever.
:scared0011:

What :huh:

Tyburn
02-22-2009, 10:09 AM
Thats why I dont like you that kind of comment about American products is absurd.
I disagree with bailouts totally. But if you give a bailout to the banks why not auto industry. See what I am getting at is this should have never started but since it has where does it stop. Now they want One National Bank comeon the last thing we need is more government. But regretfully thats the opposite of Democrat platforms that stress Bigger Government. And to top it off we have a President who is a Socialise
Do you wanna know why I dont like you?

because you just dont listen. None of you do.

The Banks HAD to be bailed out, the Auto Industry didnt HAVE to be bailed out. If the auto industry collapses it has a negative impact on the country who created the mess in the first place. If the banks collapse it takes THE WHOLE world down with it.

Here you are moaning about your President being a commie...when you believe that he should his predecessor should have turned the rest of the world Commie to cover up American mistakes. Do you realize what happened in the rest of the world when your government thanks to people like YOU stalled for just a few days on the Wall Street Bail out???

YOU created MASS Governmental Banks across Europe!!! YOU did that. You FORCED them to take over and nationalize Banks in Northern Europe and England in a MUCH HIGHER proportion then they did in The United States.

It seems that as well as Liberate, you guys also entrap in EXACTLY the way you moan is happening in your own country you force it onto others tenfold.

Now, when the autoindustry collapses, that harms what? a few companies in the United States, the country of origin for this credit crisis, and what will happen, ohh...new Auto Companies will arrive and continue.

So...you dont need to bail them out. But the banks are different, and I have been spending a hell of a lot of time explaining this to you guys. Who when the going gets tough actually dont suddenly care about the rest of the world after all.

...and its not your Government that was to blame, it was the people who protested the bail out of the banks and cost that extra few days before it was secured. THOSE are the people who are to blame for the sudden nationalization in Europe. Sure the bankers and the spenders caused the issue, but had the bailout happened IMMEDIATELY this problem could have been halved in the REST of the World. It might then have stayed the National Affiar that it started out as...and you think the Civillians, those spenders should run the Government and not the other way round. You remember one thing out of all this. The cause of this lies with the American People. The Government is only trying to solve the problem. THEY didnt make it...and whilst I dissagree with HOW they are trying to solve it, the point is, the people who created this mess are the people you believe should hold sway over your government???? ...and if only the Government had monitored Finances and borrowing, rather then Ammo...perhaps this whole thing could have been averted...with perish the thought, the Government limiting GREEDY bankers and spenders on their first amendment Rights to ruin not only themselves, but vast swaithes of the rest of the world also

so now not only has this been brought upon yourself but Upon YOUR allies :angry:

Preach
02-22-2009, 03:11 PM
Do you wanna know why I dont like you?


[/I]so now not only has this been brought upon yourself but Upon YOUR allies :angry:


WTF you dont like me:huh:


The second part is exactly what I am saying this will harm everyone

Preach
02-22-2009, 03:12 PM
Yeah because W didnt have a tough situation when he started. FOlks are going to look back in a year and Wish George was still there.

I am already wishing that:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Tyburn
02-22-2009, 03:26 PM
WTF you dont like me:huh:


The second part is exactly what I am saying this will harm everyone
:laugh: No I like you Ben...I'm just showing you how it feels when you write things like that to others

plus I was trying to show you that there was a BIG difference between bailing out the Banks which your Government HAD to do...and bailing out any other business. The Government werent saving your Bankers because they liked them...but because if they didnt they would send the whole world into a Financial chasm.

Now ANY other industry is probably not worth the money because it doesnt effect the WHOLE world.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Chuck
02-22-2009, 06:40 PM
I agree. If everyone wasn't so effin' greedy they never would have gotten into this mess.Why do the people high up in companies have to make millions, or even billions when they can live just fine off of hundreds of thousands :laugh:

Says the woman lusting after a 1.5 million dollar car....................:Whistle:

internationalharvester
02-22-2009, 07:04 PM
hey man .. proof is in the pudding .. i have a buddy who swears by domestic ..... only thing he drives is pick-ups and muscles cars .... of course domestic is king at that ..doesn't mean that caters to the mainstream .. mainstream worries about sedans and coupes and the japs currently run that business .. and imo, that is the side of the business that the domestic market has neglected ...


really i mean really? who built this country? people in cities driving cars? how many times you ever see a contractor pull up to a job in a sedan or a coupe? and to say that domestic is crap? i have a 96 silverado that has more miles than 99% of jap cars....can you say 200,000 club? and shes still runnin strong so you can take your jap scrap and shove it

Tyburn
02-22-2009, 07:21 PM
really i mean really? who built this country? people in cities driving cars? how many times you ever see a contractor pull up to a job in a sedan or a coupe? and to say that domestic is crap? i have a 96 silverado that has more miles than 99% of jap cars....can you say 200,000 club? and shes still runnin strong so you can take your jap scrap and shove it
I dont know much about cars myself :unsure-1:

bradwright
02-22-2009, 07:33 PM
I dont know much about cars myself :unsure-1:
I know a bit about cars,,
I have a 08 GMC sierra that gets 22 miles per on the highway and about 16 around town,,
and i also have 09 G8 that gets around 34 on the highway and well over 20 in the city and love both of them,,
imports dont do any better then that and most not as good,
a friend of mine bought a 08 Tundra last year and his mileage is not very good and the thing has so much body roll its hard to drive on the highway when its windy,,he wishes he never bought the thing,,

Preach
02-23-2009, 04:26 PM
:w00t: :laugh: No I like you Ben...I'm just showing you how it feels when you write things like that to others

plus I was trying to show you that there was a BIG difference between bailing out the Banks which your Government HAD to do...and bailing out any other business. The Government werent saving your Bankers because they liked them...but because if they didnt they would send the whole world into a Financial chasm.

Now ANY other industry is probably not worth the money because it doesnt effect the WHOLE world.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

mikthehick
02-23-2009, 04:40 PM
really i mean really? who built this country? people in cities driving cars? how many times you ever see a contractor pull up to a job in a sedan or a coupe? and to say that domestic is crap? i have a 96 silverado that has more miles than 99% of jap cars....can you say 200,000 club? and shes still runnin strong so you can take your jap scrap and shove it

Amen :) People ask me why I don't own a Honda, and I just tell them the truth, they are awesome, but WAY too expensive to fix.

I had a 1985 Ford Tempo, 1996 Saturn SL1 (totalled), 2004 Saturn Ion, and now own a 2005 Mazda 6s Hatch. All four cars have been awesome--the Mazda is quickly coming up on 50K and is doing great, I've spent only about 200 fixing it so far--goes in soon for a big repair, just wear and tear repair stuff, but all I've done are oil changes and tires. Plus a fixed bumper b/c I stupidly ran into a friends car but that was my fault.

The Saturns were great too--I would love to buy one as a project car soon, and my brother now has the Ion, which is going on 90K. People will have different perceptions on cars. Heck people made fun of me for owning a saturn, but it was low maintenace and got me from point A to B.

The Mazda is Japanese yes, but is owned 36% by ford, which means I can buy Ford Fusion parts and put them on the Mazda = cheap. Oil changes are 19 dollars and the car was manufactured in Flint Hill, Michigan in March of 2005. It is a great car and high quality with a great warranty (got the extended warranty until 90K miles :D

so yeah, cars will take care of you if you take care of them. Unless you have a lemon

Jonlion
02-23-2009, 10:11 PM
Let me say the most reliable cars in England are Fords but they are made in England.

I can never get my head round why the American Car Industry is failing.

For me, yeah the economic started with America but Finance is a international game with no boundaries so whoever was silly enough to make these investments and give people money who can't afford it are all too blame. Not a specific country.

However people like Madoff should be hung
and how i wish Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister or President of the USA because that way, we would be out of this mess!

Tyburn
02-23-2009, 10:47 PM
1)
For me, yeah the economic started with America but Finance is a international game with no boundaries so whoever was silly enough to make these investments and give people money who can't afford it are all too blame. Not a specific country.

2)and how i wish Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister or President of the USA because that way, we would be out of this mess!

1) those people were in the US Sub Prime Market. Countries do have THEIR OWN economies, its just that they also relay on each other internationally. So YEAH one country and its economy CAN be specifically to blame, but the repuccusions still be international

2) many a miner might dissagree with you about that :laugh: Do you think she will get a state funeral when she dies :huh:

Jonlion
02-23-2009, 11:18 PM
1) those people were in the US Sub Prime Market. Countries do have THEIR OWN economies, its just that they also relay on each other internationally. So YEAH one country and its economy CAN be specifically to blame, but the repuccusions still be international

2) many a miner might dissagree with you about that :laugh: Do you think she will get a state funeral when she dies :huh:


She should get every honour attributed to her. Whether you liked her policies or not it has to be regonised that she was one of the greatest PM's to ever be in office.

And wouldnt want her here now dealing with this mess!

Yeah i know it was the American Sub Prime Mtg but look at my Bank, no one said buy these bad loans, they done it themselves.

RBS make me sick, you know they would scrutinise me if i gave someone a loan i knew could afford it but the figures were off by 1. A cashier is hounded and bonuses stopped if they 100 differences on their tills. Perhaps that is fair enough but who was checking due dilligence when they were giving 400 million to Madoff or 2 Billion to Russian businessman. Or buying usless packaged up Sub prime mortgages for a quick buck.

The recession begun and was made by America but we all willingly followed, all motivated by greed and money, so we are all as equally as bad.

Tyburn
02-23-2009, 11:45 PM
She should get every honour attributed to her. Whether you liked her policies or not it has to be regonised that she was one of the greatest PM's to ever be in office.

And wouldnt want her here now dealing with this mess!

Yeah i know it was the American Sub Prime Mtg but look at my Bank, no one said buy these bad loans, they done it themselves.

RBS make me sick, you know they would scrutinise me if i gave someone a loan i knew could afford it but the figures were off by 1. A cashier is hounded and bonuses stopped if they 100 differences on their tills. Perhaps that is fair enough but who was checking due dilligence when they were giving 400 million to Madoff or 2 Billion to Russian businessman. Or buying usless packaged up Sub prime mortgages for a quick buck.

The recession begun and was made by America but we all willingly followed, all motivated by greed and money, so we are all as equally as bad.

of course we followed. We assumed they knew what they were doing with all that...whats the name for it...like where they had bonds, verrrrra complex bonds...securities?? something like that. Count yourself lucky you didnt work for Northern Rock...or Bradford and Bingley LOL

I hear the Government is making them feel better about their mistakes by motivating them with...MONEY...thats right, give them alllll a BIG Bonus because havent they had a bloody hard time of it.

What annoys me is that half the Americans dont realize what would have happened if the US had failed to bail out the U.S banks. Because the U.S underlines the worlds economy...it would be like pulling the rug from under the entire western world financially.

I dont think the Stirling would have held it...because like you say...we were begining to follow America.

Robertboxerboy
02-23-2009, 11:48 PM
It's an ugly road that sees the government eventually taking over the banking industry, regulating salaries (not just for executives either, just wait for it).


sounds like were headin to communism if you ask me

Robertboxerboy
02-23-2009, 11:50 PM
not joking or anything but i have always thought if we could just have ted nugent in the house for a month we might be a in a better situation

Tyburn
02-23-2009, 11:52 PM
sounds like were headin to communism if you ask me
Well WE ARE...because half our Banks have become Nationalized...because some people protested the Bail out. Anyone who DARES complain about Communism had better be as Angry as I am that the U.S Government took so long in Bailing out the banks....because THAT gap whilst listening to American protesters and what not has CAUSED a wave of Nationalistion in Banking.

Jonlion
02-24-2009, 12:11 AM
As much as i loathe it, you have to bail the banks, imagine a bank collapsing, it would be anarchy, and when that breaks, then it really hits.

What every Bank needs to do is steady the ship, get profitable again, and its a fact Banks are in the end always goign to make money, they have just got to be more prudent, and then buy out the Governments again hopefully at a healthy profit for the taxpayer.

I dont see how Nationalising the Banks would lead to communism.

We have a skewed view of Communism sometimes. When you sit and read Marx and Engels there is a lot more to it, i have the copy of the communist manifesto on my bookshelf, i figured it was an essential to have for references. I shall read it again at some point and see what i think.

Tyburn
02-24-2009, 12:24 AM
As much as i loathe it, you have to bail the banks, imagine a bank collapsing, it would be anarchy, and when that breaks, then it really hits.

What every Bank needs to do is steady the ship, get profitable again, and its a fact Banks are in the end always goign to make money, they have just got to be more prudent, and then buy out the Governments again hopefully at a healthy profit for the taxpayer.

I dont see how Nationalising the Banks would lead to communism.

We have a skewed view of Communism sometimes. When you sit and read Marx and Engels there is a lot more to it, i have the copy of the communist manifesto on my bookshelf, i figured it was an essential to have for references. I shall read it again at some point and see what i think.

What I mean is not so much Communism, as the Governments control over banks. The Americans see the Government as being a rogue that longs to opress under the guise of being fair to everyone. They see everything from Centrist as being Communistic

I think that they get mixed up between "communism" and "Governmental control" for them, its the same thing. I know its not Marxist at all. The United States has absolutely no idea about True Communism...but True Communism doesnt work on a large scale...those countries claiming to be Communist like China...actually are only Communistic in principles of Ethics...in reality, they are actually dictatorships run by an elite rather then just one person...THATS what the United States lives in fear of...a Governmental Dictatorship...and that would be under the guise of Communism.

So Marx is irrelivent...his theories only work on a small scale. The work well on a REALLY small scale....but countries are simply to big for that.

I'm impressed you have The Comunist Manifesto on your bookshelf. I wanted a copy, but my Tutor wouldnt give me one. hahahaha, He said I could only have it if I was prepared to have Meine Kampf on the bookshelf aswell...to ballence out the two extremes. Now...I have to say at University I read bits of both papers...but I decided they were best left off my bookshelf.

Its hard enough trying to please everyone, without doing something that makes it impossible to please anybody

Spiritwalker
02-24-2009, 03:14 AM
I disagreed with all of the bailouts. The government needs to stay out of private industry. If GM, Chrysler and Ford have mismanaged their affairs so badly that they're companies are failing, then they need to be allowed to go into bankruptcy. And that doesn't necessarily mean the end of the company, it's just a forced restructuring.

Marvel Comics (the company who created Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, X-Men, etc.) declared bankruptcy back in the late 90s when the comic book market collapsed. That forced them to rethink how they do EVERYTHING and, as a result, comic books today are much better quality and Marvel is actually producing some of the most profitable movies in film history (Spider-Man 1-3, Iron Man, Hulk, X-Men 1-3, etc.).

So bankruptcy would not necessarily be the end of Ford, GM and Chrysler; but it would be the end of them in their current forms. However, you can bet that the cars that they would be producing post-bankruptcy would not be the gas guzzling wastes that we see today.

Agreed!!

Maybe help them out.. But I would rather see the auto industry be forced to rethink the way they are doing things.. other wise.. re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

Jonlion
02-24-2009, 11:01 AM
What I mean is not so much Communism, as the Governments control over banks. The Americans see the Government as being a rogue that longs to opress under the guise of being fair to everyone. They see everything from Centrist as being Communistic

I think that they get mixed up between "communism" and "Governmental control" for them, its the same thing. I know its not Marxist at all. The United States has absolutely no idea about True Communism...but True Communism doesnt work on a large scale...those countries claiming to be Communist like China...actually are only Communistic in principles of Ethics...in reality, they are actually dictatorships run by an elite rather then just one person...THATS what the United States lives in fear of...a Governmental Dictatorship...and that would be under the guise of Communism.

So Marx is irrelivent...his theories only work on a small scale. The work well on a REALLY small scale....but countries are simply to big for that.

I'm impressed you have The Comunist Manifesto on your bookshelf. I wanted a copy, but my Tutor wouldnt give me one. hahahaha, He said I could only have it if I was prepared to have Meine Kampf on the bookshelf aswell...to ballence out the two extremes. Now...I have to say at University I read bits of both papers...but I decided they were best left off my bookshelf.

Its hard enough trying to please everyone, without doing something that makes it impossible to please anybody


Yeah you are completely right, what they originally wrote has never truly been practiced and it is probably impossiable too. In addition the world isnt like it was for them now so it is impossiable to implement.

Although i liked Maggie Thatcher, my family is working class and there are certain elements of the manifesto that i rather like and there was a obscene inequality at that time.

See i read it 3 years ago now for a paper, but would like to go over it again, plus i just believe its a great book to have in the collection.

Makes you seem well read! ha ha! I do like having collections

Tyburn
02-24-2009, 01:19 PM
Yeah you are completely right, what they originally wrote has never truly been practiced and it is probably impossiable too. In addition the world isnt like it was for them now so it is impossiable to implement.

Although i liked Maggie Thatcher, my family is working class and there are certain elements of the manifesto that i rather like and there was a obscene inequality at that time.

See i read it 3 years ago now for a paper, but would like to go over it again, plus i just believe its a great book to have in the collection.

Makes you seem well read! ha ha! I do like having collections
What you need, dear chap, is some Friederich Nietzsche :ninja:

Yes he's a religious iconoclast, so I cant say I aggree with large portions of his way of thinking...but he also has some interesting things to say which I feel ARE true. You might like some books of Political Ethics, Political Evolution, and Post-Modernity, Erving Goffman and his Symbolic Interactionalism

The list is endless :frantics:

rearnakedchoke
02-24-2009, 02:48 PM
really i mean really? who built this country? people in cities driving cars? how many times you ever see a contractor pull up to a job in a sedan or a coupe? and to say that domestic is crap? i have a 96 silverado that has more miles than 99% of jap cars....can you say 200,000 club? and shes still runnin strong so you can take your jap scrap and shove it

hey, we grew up driving domestic ... the cars were made so much better ... now they are made like crap, sure they are cheap to fix, but you have to fix them all the time, you probably got lucky with your car, but the newer cars they are making are worthless .. do you think these companies would need a bailout if they made good cars? nope ... sure they have some bad management issues, but that is not the problem, the problem is they can't sell them because people are on to them for selling garbage ... why are the foreign cars doing so well? if they were expensive to fix and people were fixing them all the time, people would not buy them ... they sell a good product at a fair price, something the domestic companies can't say they are doing ...

if i were a seller of these junk boxes i don't know how i would sleep at nite knowing that for a living i sell over priced junk to unsuspecting (even though they shouldn't be) customers ... the gov't should let them go bankrupt and let the company figure it out ...

bradwright
02-24-2009, 03:26 PM
hey, we grew up driving domestic ... the cars were made so much better ... now they are made like crap, sure they are cheap to fix, but you have to fix them all the time, you probably got lucky with your car, but the newer cars they are making are worthless .. do you think these companies would need a bailout if they made good cars? nope ... sure they have some bad management issues, but that is not the problem, the problem is they can't sell them because people are on to them for selling garbage ... why are the foreign cars doing so well? if they were expensive to fix and people were fixing them all the time, people would not buy them ... they sell a good product at a fair price, something the domestic companies can't say they are doing ...

if i were a seller of these junk boxes i don't know how i would sleep at nite knowing that for a living i sell over priced junk to unsuspecting (even though they shouldn't be) customers ... the gov't should let them go bankrupt and let the company figure it out ...

i'm not sure what kind of car you drive but i have driven domestic vehicles all my driving life (and trust me thats a long long time)and have had nothing but good luck with them,other then normal wear and tear i have never had any major break downs,,
my first vehicle was a 72 ford F150,,put 180 thousand miles on it and was still running like a top when i sold it,,
i also had a 76 Malibu classic,put over 200 thousand miles on it and only sold it because it was burning a little oil and I was scared the motor was on its way out,,lol,,the guy i sold it to drove it for another 6 years and 50 thousand miles more before he had any trouble,,

in total in the last 30 years or so i have owned 9 different domestic vehicles including the three i have right now and all i can say is i wouldn't have had it any other way,
some people just aren't happy with any thing produced close to home,they think the further away you have to go to get it,,the better it is,,

and before you jump all over me and say there are factories in north America producing foreign cars,well lets just say i know that and while it produces a few jobs here any real profit makes a quick exit over sea's,

Neezar
02-24-2009, 03:28 PM
hey, we grew up driving domestic ... the cars were made so much better ... now they are made like crap, sure they are cheap to fix, but you have to fix them all the time, you probably got lucky with your car, but the newer cars they are making are worthless .. do you think these companies would need a bailout if they made good cars? nope ... sure they have some bad management issues, but that is not the problem, the problem is they can't sell them because people are on to them for selling garbage ... why are the foreign cars doing so well? if they were expensive to fix and people were fixing them all the time, people would not buy them ... they sell a good product at a fair price, something the domestic companies can't say they are doing ...

if i were a seller of these junk boxes i don't know how i would sleep at nite knowing that for a living i sell over priced junk to unsuspecting (even though they shouldn't be) customers ... the gov't should let them go bankrupt and let the company figure it out ...

Let me start by saying that I disagree with domestic cars being crap. We own 4 and I have been very satisfied with my vehicles.

Secondly, what do you expect these American companies to do? They have had to do whatever they could to survive. You have the Unions demanding they pay people the same amount of money that the foreign companies can use for 3 or more workers. They are required to pay local, state and federal taxes on the labor and the products; foreigners don't. How do you expect them to compete? They have had to make cutbacks anywhere possible to stay alive. (Some of them have their parts made in those foreign countries, shipped over here, and assembled here. That way they can claim the 'made in America' bit.)

And some of that responsibility has to fall back on the gov't. Since we formed the United States, the gov't has been responsible for putting tariffs on imports and doing it high enough to protect our domestic companies. There job is to help in making it easier and more profitable on the buyer to go American and to help us prosper here. Well, at some point that changed. Now our gov't gives tax cuts, exemptions, all sorts of incentitives for foreign exchange to be brought here while our own suffers.

Did you realize that a foreigner can come to America and start a privately owned business and be TAX EXEMPT for FIVE YEARS?! And then they can apply for FIVE MORE YEARS if they can show less than a certain percentage of profit. And that is not to mention that they can qualify for government grant money to help with starting the business. We don't offer that to our own.

(I could go on but I will spare you.lol)

So, yeah, I think the government holds some of the responsibility here. The US has forgotten how to take care of it's own and that is a down right shame.

NateR
02-24-2009, 03:45 PM
What you need, dear chap, is some Friederich Nietzsche :ninja:

Yes he's a religious iconoclast, so I cant say I aggree with large portions of his way of thinking...but he also has some interesting things to say which I feel ARE true. You might like some books of Political Ethics, Political Evolution, and Post-Modernity, Erving Goffman and his Symbolic Interactionalism

The list is endless :frantics:

Well, as much as I don't like the person that Nietzsche was, he did make a very accurate prediction in his time. He stated that since mankind had "killed God" in their minds in the 19th century, then he believed that the 20th century would be the bloodiest in all of human history. That definitely proved to be true.

NateR
02-24-2009, 03:53 PM
You have the Unions demanding they pay people the same amount of money that the foreign companies can use for 3 or more workers.

That's one of the biggest problems, unions have simply priced Americans out of work. Why would a company pay one American worker $15 an hour in addition to medical insurance, retirement plan, vacation time, child care, and a host of other benefits; when you could open up a plant overseas and pay 15 workers $1 an hour with NO benefits and get more work accomplished? It's just basic economics.

I understand why the unions formed in the first place, to put an end to massive corporations essentially owning their employees. However, the unions have become just as bloated and corrupt as the companies they vowed to protect workers from. Right now, unions only exist to line their own pockets and ensure that lazy workers receive the same benefit as good workers. Then we wonder why companies are so eager to relocate oversease.

rearnakedchoke
02-24-2009, 04:17 PM
That's one of the biggest problems, unions have simply priced Americans out of work. Why would a company pay one American worker $15 an hour in addition to medical insurance, retirement plan, vacation time, child care, and a host of other benefits; when you could open up a plant overseas and pay 15 workers $1 an hour with NO benefits and get more work accomplished? It's just basic economics.

I understand why the unions formed in the first place, to put an end to massive corporations essentially owning their employees. However, the unions have become just as bloated and corrupt as the companies they vowed to protect workers from. Right now, unions only exist to line their own pockets and ensure that lazy workers receive the same benefit as good workers. Then we wonder why companies are so eager to relocate oversease.

Exactly .. this is the biggest beef I have with unions .. they are make americans and canadians lazy ass people ... and the people that are working under a union it is one thing to have a clean and safe workplace, but the mentality of most unionized employees is a "me first" attitude ... they have had it easy for all these years and now it is coming to bite them all in the ass

County Mike
02-24-2009, 06:38 PM
My 2003 Chevy Avalanche is still running just fine with over 108,000 miles on it. At least for trucks, I like the domestic brands.

CAVEMAN
02-24-2009, 10:15 PM
That's one of the biggest problems, unions have simply priced Americans out of work. Why would a company pay one American worker $15 an hour in addition to medical insurance, retirement plan, vacation time, child care, and a host of other benefits; when you could open up a plant overseas and pay 15 workers $1 an hour with NO benefits and get more work accomplished? It's just basic economics.

I understand why the unions formed in the first place, to put an end to massive corporations essentially owning their employees. However, the unions have become just as bloated and corrupt as the companies they vowed to protect workers from. Right now, unions only exist to line their own pockets and ensure that lazy workers receive the same benefit as good workers. Then we wonder why companies are so eager to relocate oversease.

Exactly! Although I do not think that top executives should be taking home millions a year, I do think that unions have priced themselves out of jobs. I just read something the other day where some analyst's figured up the average pay per hour of a union auto worker. $73.00 AN HOUR! Of course that is including paid benefits, but still.....that is alot of money to be shelling out. I have also read articles in business journals claiming that it is almost impossible to fire a Union Auto Worker for any reason. They will slap a "grievance" against bosses, managers, and the like that the red tape alone costs thousands of dollars if the big 3 try to fight it.

bradwright
02-24-2009, 10:27 PM
I just read something the other day where some analyst's figured up the average pay per hour of a union auto worker. $73.00 AN HOUR! Of course that is including paid benefits, but still.....that is alot of money to be shelling out.

its not the actual pay that every auto worker recieves even with their benefits,its the cost to the company per worker,,wich includes money they will never see,,

dont get me wrong though,,i'm against unions,,there is no need for them anymore and hasn't been for a very long time,,

Chuck
02-25-2009, 12:07 AM
Exactly! Although I do not think that top executives should be taking home millions a year, I do think that unions have priced themselves out of jobs. I just read something the other day where some analyst's figured up the average pay per hour of a union auto worker. $73.00 AN HOUR! Of course that is including paid benefits, but still.....that is alot of money to be shelling out. I have also read articles in business journals claiming that it is almost impossible to fire a Union Auto Worker for any reason. They will slap a "grievance" against bosses, managers, and the like that the red tape alone costs thousands of dollars if the big 3 try to fight it.

I think the unions are right personally. We've allowed corp execs to make millions per year but we think an auto worker is over paid? The unions are why the workers have any rights in the first place. Is working for minimum wage and living with the constant fear of being replaced better?

How come as Americans we don't think that we deserve the wages that a union worker makes? How come we dont look at union workers as being justly compensated instead of over paid? The same union that makes it almost impossible to fire an employee protects those same employees from being fired for no cause or being the vicitm of politics or various other workplace BS.

Union workers are only "over paid" because we've lowered our standards and sold ourselves for far less then we deserve. The problem isn't the unions... the problem is the execs making far too much money.

Irish Pride
02-25-2009, 12:18 AM
Becareful....if you criticize a President of the United States, your thread will get deleted.

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 12:39 AM
Becareful....if you criticize a President of the United States, your thread will get deleted.
Only if it contains libel and/or slander.

Tyburn
02-25-2009, 12:53 AM
I think the unions are right personally. We've allowed corp execs to make millions per year but we think an auto worker is over paid? The unions are why the workers have any rights in the first place. Is working for minimum wage and living with the constant fear of being replaced better?

How come as Americans we don't think that we deserve the wages that a union worker makes? How come we dont look at union workers as being justly compensated instead of over paid? The same union that makes it almost impossible to fire an employee protects those same employees from being fired for no cause or being the vicitm of politics or various other workplace BS.

Union workers are only "over paid" because we've lowered our standards and sold ourselves for far less then we deserve. The problem isn't the unions... the problem is the execs making far too much money.

Whatever you've done with Chuck...Give him back :angry:

:laugh:

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 01:04 AM
This is the only change I trust, not that guy running our country.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/213/513380276_109e436756.jpg

Neezar
02-25-2009, 03:15 AM
I think the unions are right personally. We've allowed corp execs to make millions per year but we think an auto worker is over paid? The unions are why the workers have any rights in the first place. Is working for minimum wage and living with the constant fear of being replaced better?



Yes, it is. It is called survival of the fittest. :laugh:



How come as Americans we don't think that we deserve the wages that a union worker makes? How come we dont look at union workers as being justly compensated instead of over paid? The same union that makes it almost impossible to fire an employee protects those same employees from being fired for no cause or being the vicitm of politics or various other workplace BS.



We think that we don't deserve that kind of money because most of us don't. We don't deserve to make a salary that is crippling the company. Then nobody wins. Send that Union worker home and for the same money hire me and two of my friends (who aren't afraid to actually work hard enough to earn our keep) and we will help you stay in business.



Union workers are only "over paid" because we've lowered our standards and sold ourselves for far less then we deserve. The problem isn't the unions... the problem is the execs making far too much money.

Lowering our standards and getting less than we deserve? Come on. The is the Age of See How Much Stuff We Can Obtain. We need to get back to the basics. Do you want to earn a living or get a free ride?

And if the Execs are keeping my job here in the US, feeding, clothing, providing shelter and health care for my family then I don't care what their paycheck amount is. That is what the American dream is about, isn't it? If he has worked his way up and making enough profit to pay himself that much then don't HE deserve it?

Chuck
02-25-2009, 05:15 AM
Yes, it is. It is called survival of the fittest. :laugh:




We think that we don't deserve that kind of money because most of us don't. We don't deserve to make a salary that is crippling the company. Then nobody wins. Send that Union worker home and for the same money hire me and two of my friends (who aren't afraid to actually work hard enough to earn our keep) and we will help you stay in business.




Lowering our standards and getting less than we deserve? Come on. The is the Age of See How Much Stuff We Can Obtain. We need to get back to the basics. Do you want to earn a living or get a free ride?

And if the Execs are keeping my job here in the US, feeding, clothing, providing shelter and health care for my family then I don't care what their paycheck amount is. That is what the American dream is about, isn't it? If he has worked his way up and making enough profit to pay himself that much then don't HE deserve it?
LOL.... you work in the healthcare industry.... I'm sure you know NOTHING about being overpaid... :laugh:

logrus
02-25-2009, 06:03 AM
You guys are nothing more then a bunch of pissers and moaners. You cry about this and that. So Obama is trying to get us away from the this and the that and you just cry about that.

J.B.
02-25-2009, 06:19 AM
You guys are nothing more then a bunch of pissers and moaners. You cry about this and that. So Obama is trying to get us away from the this and the that and you just cry about that.

huh? :huh:

:laugh:

bradwright
02-25-2009, 07:09 AM
huh? :huh:

:laugh:
you heard him quit all your pissing and moaning,,
wait a sec maybe he was talking to me,,nope,,i'm pretty sure its you guys so stop it already.(the pissing and moaning that is).

dont make me come back in here,,

County Mike
02-25-2009, 12:21 PM
This is the only change I trust, not that guy running our country.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/213/513380276_109e436756.jpg

Which guy running the country are you talking about? You posted all Canadian change.

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 01:58 PM
Which guy running the country are you talking about? You posted all Canadian change.
LOL, I guess it was in reference to Stephen Harper, not Obama. I totally spaced that!

County Mike
02-25-2009, 02:03 PM
LOL, I guess it was in reference to Stephen Harper, not Obama. I totally spaced that!

Who the heck is Stephen Harper?

rearnakedchoke
02-25-2009, 03:47 PM
Who the heck is Stephen Harper?
Canadian PM ... worst in history ...

rearnakedchoke
02-25-2009, 03:52 PM
Only if it contains libel and/or slander.

No, you can't post anything negative about GWB, cuz Nate is in love with him ... I believe someone posted a video of him and all his speech mess-ups and Nate removed it because he said it was intended to poke fun at GWB .. which is not slander or libel ...

So you can criticize and post slander/libel about any president but GWB ...

Chuck
02-25-2009, 04:44 PM
No, you can't post anything negative about GWB, cuz Nate is in love with him ... I believe someone posted a video of him and all his speech mess-ups and Nate removed it because he said it was intended to poke fun at GWB .. which is not slander or libel ...

So you can criticize and post slander/libel about any president but GWB ...

What do you allow them to do over on your forums??? :tongue0011:

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 05:07 PM
Who the heck is Stephen Harper?
Canada's current Prime Minister.

County Mike
02-25-2009, 05:56 PM
What does a Prime Minister do? Is he like a Reverand or Pastor?

Chuck
02-25-2009, 06:02 PM
What does a Prime Minister do? Is he like a Reverand or Pastor?

Nah... he's like any other minister... just a little extra fat and lots more flavor!!

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 06:12 PM
What does a Prime Minister do? Is he like a Reverand or Pastor?
Well, it's kinda like a combination of a very fatty, artery-collging steak and a high ranking official of the Catholic Church.
Basically, it sounds like something good, but ultimately, wants to screw you and your kids.

rearnakedchoke
02-25-2009, 06:33 PM
What do you allow them to do over on your forums??? :tongue0011:

rules are for all ... i don't make up rules as i go .. sorta like that whining kid that if he was losing the game would go home with his ball ... not sorta like that . exactly like that ...

Tyburn
02-25-2009, 06:35 PM
What does a Prime Minister do? Is he like a Reverand or Pastor?
He runs the Country. A bit like your President infact.

In England the Government is made up of Two Houses. The Main House is known as "The House of Commons" Actually its the most recent step of our political evolution. The word Commons...being derived from "commoners" As in, Plebs, normal people, representatives of mainstream society. This kinda happened during the few years that England was a Republic after the Civil War and the removal of the Monarch....it didnt work...and the Monarch was brought back, but the people still remained in the Government. The House of Commons is thus made up of MPs (Ministers of Parliament) Each Minister has been Ellected to a Council in Local Government, of whats known as "A Constituancy" Once they reach the top position (Bar the more ceremonial position of Mayor) They can have a seat in Westminster Palace. They will sit with their Parties...There are many parties, but Three major ones for Direct rule over England, they are The Conservative Tory Party (Supposed to be the Right wing party, but now the Left Wing) The Labour Party (Supposed to be the Left wing party, but now after more then 10 years in power, its more Right then the Conservatives) and the Liberal Democrats (A Centrist party) One party gains power, the rest act as an "opposition" for the Powerholding party.

Now in the case of Tony Blair. He Rose to power becoming the Leader of the Labour Party and thus when Labour became Ellected by the Country in a Democratic Vote (done by the people themselves, no representatives that vote for them) He was Prime Minister In England you may Rule as many Terms as you like consecutively or otherwise. Tony got into his Third Term of Office. A term is approximately 5 years in length, but the Ministers may call for an early ellection in oustanding cases...like for example if you came into the role without being Ellected. This could happen if You were second in command of the party in power and the Prime Minister resigned. Thats how Gordon Brown became Prime Minister.

David Cameron is leader of the Conservative Opposition. If Gordon Brown called for an Ellection and His Labour Party lost the vote...then David Cameron and his "Shadow" cabinate would become the Real Deal.

Lets see the Commons in action, its basically a big Verbal Sparring session between the parties...I bet despite how your two parties dissagree...I BET your government doesnt do this :laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZlrOTYGsw8

Each Prime minster has a Cabinate, and the Opposition have "Shadow Ministers" for each position in the Cabinate, lest they come to power. So for example, There is the Labour Health Minister...there will also be the Conservative Shadow Health Minister, if that makes sense. These people sit on the Front Bench in parliament. facing each other in a Colleigic Fashion. Over time this House has become the powerful law maker, but they do have to pass all their laws through a second...much older House.

Also in Westminster Palace is The House of Lords. Originally, it was the Early Government that rulled and advised the Monarch prior to the Civil War, and when the Monarch had full power all the time. These people used to be the Old Land Owning Barons, they used to be all the Bishops aswell. These positions essentially are unellected, and supposed to be passed down through generations of wealthy families...course now its made up of people who have Retired from the Commons and been appointed. They have to verify what the Commons does in order to solidify the Law.

If a Person is an MP, he is refered to as The Right Honerable. If he is given the title Lord, then you may refer to him with "Your Grace"

County Mike
02-25-2009, 06:44 PM
Damn. I wasn't expecting a history lesson.

"House of Lords"? I was told there's only one Lord and Saviour. What is this whole house of lords you speak of? I call blasphemy!

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Damn. I wasn't expecting a history lesson.

"House of Lords"? I was told there's only one Lord and Saviour. What is this whole house of lords you speak of? I call blasphemy!
WAR COUNTY MIKE!!!!!!!!!!

Tyburn
02-25-2009, 06:53 PM
Damn. I wasn't expecting a history lesson.

"House of Lords"? I was told there's only one Lord and Saviour. What is this whole house of lords you speak of? I call blasphemy!
Lord is a short form for LandLord. Originally the Lords and Ladies were the Rich people in England who owned all the Land. none of them own land like that now...I hasten to add that the Land is exactly why some Bishops are in the House of Lords....In any Old Cathedral you will find the Stalls of the Quire relate to an area of Land owned by the Church, and in it would sit the landlord of that area. I always laughed that under the Stall which I would always sit in at Saint Paul's to attend Evensong, which I could guarentee would always be Vacent, was the Title "Consumpta Par Mare" Evidently some poor Baron at one stage lived on the coast and lost his land off the side of a cliff and into the Sea LMAO


What you dont understand, is that the owner of an area of Land used to more or less run a whole town or something. He would be known as "Lord of the Mannor" (refering to His House obviously) He would be a Baron, so the Land would be his, you would work for him, on his land, he paid taxes to the Crown. Thus he had a seat in Parliament.

Christ is trying to show you something in adopting a Title like "Lord" He is trying to say something about his power, something about the order of things, and where little you fit into it. He's useing a term you should be familiar with to reveal to you something about himself.

Besides...He is Lord of Lords...so that kinda implies there are many Lords. He's just using the Fuedal system analogy. He is Lord OVER the Barons...A Baron would be seen as the height of authority by an Old English Pleb...so he's telling tou He's more powerful then the most powerful thing you know.


But now there is no Land...so its just a Title. A bit like being a Knight. If you are Knighted, you dont have to ride around on horse back and fight for the Queen no more. Its called a Title.

You have much to learn :laugh:

County Mike
02-25-2009, 07:04 PM
It really doesn't take much to get Dave going.

I learned about England by watching Robin Hood cartoons. I think I've got it pretty well figured out. :)

Tyburn
02-25-2009, 07:05 PM
It really doesn't take much to get Dave going.

I learned about England by watching Robin Hood cartoons. I think I've got it pretty well figured out. :)
I doubt it :rolleyes:

but I'm always happy to help :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
02-25-2009, 07:09 PM
It really doesn't take much to get Dave going.

I learned about England by watching Robin Hood cartoons. I think I've got it pretty well figured out. :)

Rocket Robin Hood? Did that take place in England too?

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 07:40 PM
It really doesn't take much to get Dave going.

I learned about England by watching Robin Hood cartoons. I think I've got it pretty well figured out. :)
I learned about England through Braveheart.

I believe the opening statement goes something like, "I'm here to tell you, about William Wallace. Historians in England will say that I am a liar, but history is written by those who have hanged." So, yeah, that means England's historians are liars! I'll bet you guys were taught that you beat the Yanks in the American Revolution and War of 1812? :tongue0011:

rearnakedchoke
02-25-2009, 08:14 PM
I learned about England through Braveheart.

I believe the opening statement goes something like, "I'm here to tell you, about William Wallace. Historians in England will say that I am a liar, but history is written by those who have hanged." So, yeah, that means England's historians are liars! I'll bet you guys were taught that you beat the Yanks in the American Revolution and War of 1812? :tongue0011:

War of 1812??? when the americans tried to expand their borders into lower and upper canada and couldn't? i would call that losing the war, when you main objective was thwarted ...

Llamafighter
02-25-2009, 08:17 PM
It really doesn't take much to get Dave going.

I learned about England by watching Robin Hood cartoons. I think I've got it pretty well figured out. :)

I learned about England by drinking tea and neglecting my oral hygene. I thin kI'm pretty much covered too! :tongue0011:

County Mike
02-25-2009, 08:32 PM
War of 1812??? when the americans tried to expand their borders into lower and upper canada and couldn't? i would call that losing the war, when you main objective was thwarted ...

That wasn't the main objective.

There were several immediate stated causes for the U.S. declaration of war. First, a series of trade restrictions introduced by Britain to impede American trade with France, a country with which Britain was at war; the U.S. contested these restrictions as illegal under international law.[3] Second, the impressment (forced recruitment) of U.S. citizens into the Royal Navy. Third, the alleged British military support for American Indians who were offering armed resistance to the United States.[4]

The dang Brits occupied Canada so we had to whoop up on 'em there because England was too far away. :)

rockdawg21
02-25-2009, 09:16 PM
The dang Brits occupied Canada so we had to whoop up on 'em there because England was too far away. :)
Yeah WAR AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!

Tyburn
02-25-2009, 10:15 PM
I learned about England by drinking tea and neglecting my oral hygene. I thin kI'm pretty much covered too! :tongue0011:
...and we will do Tea, my good chap, when we meet in the Big Appple :laugh:

Tyburn
02-25-2009, 10:19 PM
That wasn't the main objective.

There were several immediate stated causes for the U.S. declaration of war. First, a series of trade restrictions introduced by Britain to impede American trade with France, a country with which Britain was at war; the U.S. contested these restrictions as illegal under international law.[3] Second, the impressment (forced recruitment) of U.S. citizens into the Royal Navy. Third, the alleged British military support for American Indians who were offering armed resistance to the United States.[4]

The dang Brits occupied Canada so we had to whoop up on 'em there because England was too far away. :)
The French and British have never fully been friendly with one another. Even now, with the Channel Tunnel. You come through on the Euro-Star Train and go right past dover. The first stop is...WATERLOO :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

But the reason we probably put sanctions on the US...was because France cost us our Collonies in the Americas, backstabbing buggers :angry: ....and There was no "International Law" prior to The United Nations...so nice try...not that the United States cares about International Law unless its a violation ON them rather then BY them :Whistle:

...and Damn right we would support any American resistance. If we could become allies with a Natvie American force, we could cause a revolution and take back what belongs to us. :tongue0011:

Good job we are your allies now huh :laugh:

timmyja
02-26-2009, 03:49 AM
Normally I avoid the political discussions on this forum, but one thing I have never understood is how anybody can be anti-union. I am a PROUD union lineman out of local 70 in Washington D.C., and have been a member of the local for almost 8 years. Unfortunately, there are many lazy people in the unions, this is true, but I have worked since the age of 15, and I have never been on ANY kind of job where there hasn't been lazy people that aren't worth the money they are paid. EVERY job I have ever worked has had lazy people that should be fired and replaced, from washing dishes at fifteen years old, to building powerlines at 25 years old. I worked in a couple of factories outside of high school, and I have to say that was the worst working experience I have ever had. My pay was 7.00 an hour to bust my ass toting hundreds of pounds of steel a day in a factory in Waukegan IL. The working conditions were miserable, hardly anybody there spoke english, and there was NO training even offered. On top of that, there was no health benefits, and I really didn't care for their retirement plan. To top it off, when I was hired the plant manager told me that I shouldn't disclose the amount of money I was making to anybody I worked with, because with me being hired on I was being payed MORE than some employees that had been there for 15-20 years. I had no work experience in that trade, zip, zero, zilch. Yet I was making more money? How is that fair? That is also the only job I have ever been fired from. The reason that was given... I wasn't fulfilling my duties. I asked how I could be expected to do my duties without proper training of what my job description consists of, and the answer was that I should learn my duties. Nice place, huh? A friend of mine from high school continued working there after I was fired, and I found out that I was fired and an older hispanic man was brought in at the bare minimum wage to take over my job. He also told me the man hardly ever showed up to work, and did a horrible job. That was really worth saving the extra 1.25 on the hour, wasn't it?

I would like to ask an honest question, without pissing anybody off. How many of you forum members here could do my job? Most average people are afraid of the typical 120 volt circuits that run through the walls in their homes. I have worked energized feeders here in VA, which uses the highest distribution voltage in the country, at a voltage of 19,920 volts. (Or 34.5kvY for any other linemen here.) I have hotsticked transmission lines at heights of 175' and voltages of 500kv(kilovolts.) 500,000 volts!! If you want a real rush, let me tell you, there is nothing in the world like working on hot powerlines. Other than the obvious hazards associated with what I do (electrocution, flash burn, falling) there is also a lot of mental stress associated with the physical aspects of my job. When hurricanes come through, those powerlines don't put themselves back up. So... that means Timmy and thousands of other lineworkers pack up their belongings and drive 3 day drives to the middle of ground zero from wherever they happen to be at the time, and they stay for an undetirmined amount of time. Anybody that has ever been in the area of where a hurricane has gone through can tell you the air is not pleasant. It is very hot, un-Godly humid, and the bugs are terrible. You are bitten day in and day out, your feet get jungle-rot, and heat-sickness becomes a very real thing. Added to all that, you are a thousand miles from your family and friends, which really plays Hell on relationships. You face the possibility of dying a thousand miles from home, a hard fact of life that our soldiers deal with everyday and my sincerest thankyous are extended to them, from a force that God may have never intended for us to have our hands on. Electricity is a monster...

My union negotiates my wages for a reason. In the early days of powerline work, there was a 1/2 fatality rate. One in two!! Linemen worked long hours were paid poorly and there was no such thing as benefits. My Union offers top quality training, that I am proud to pass on to the apprentices that I work around on a daily basis. This training has helped to keep me sharp on the job so I can go home at night, become certified in running cranes and other heavy equipment, and I even have a Class A CDL liscense. I never foreseen any of this sweating my ass off in that factory in Waukegan. The contractors that I work for pay anywhere from 16%-25% of what I gross into an annuity fund, which isn't doing so hot these days, and my medical insurance is outstanding. I make a decent wage, but here in VA it is a right-to-work state. There are many other non-union contractors working on the same system that I am, yet they make more on the hour. My hourly wage is 30.06 per hour for a journeyman lineman. A non-union lineman's hourly wage is closer to 36. However, they pay their own retirement and pay for there own medical insurance out of their own pocket, which makes ther hourly wage roughly 23 something an hour. So I should take a paycut of 13 dollars an hour to do my job? Is that fair? I mentioned the quality of our training, and I will put the finished product of our union labor, and I am not speaking for all unions I am speaking for mine, against ANY of our non-union competitors. Look up the statistics of lost-time accidents of union electrical workers vs. non-union. We have a safer track record, higher production rate, and a better over-all quality product. As for the laziness angle, I invite anybody on this forum to come work with me and my guys for a week, and I will GLADLY arrange to come and do your job for a week(barring military service, because that is the one job that I truly could not do, and my hat goes off again to those that do.) If after that week you still percieve union workers lazy, then I will concede on any argument that I have because you will have proven yourself to truly be ignorant.

I DO NOT deserve to make less money. I DO NOT deserve to be fired and have four other employees brought in to replace me for BEANS and be underpaid for a job like this. But then again, hey if you want my job, I'll give you the last of my dwindling retirement portfolio if you survive one week without any kind of serious injury.

I didn't post this to be drawn into an argument about union related issues, or political things. I just wanted to paint the picture from my perspective. Thank you

Chuck
02-26-2009, 04:28 AM
I am a PROUD union lineman out of local 70 in Washington D.C., and have been a member of the local for almost 8 years.

My Union offers top quality training, that I am proud to pass on to the apprentices that I work around on a daily basis. This training has helped to keep me sharp on the job so I can go home at night, become certified in running cranes and other heavy equipment, and I even have a Class A CDL liscense.

Look up the statistics of lost-time accidents of union electrical workers vs. non-union. We have a safer track record, higher production rate, and a better over-all quality product.

I DO NOT deserve to make less money. I DO NOT deserve to be fired and have four other employees brought in to replace me for BEANS and be underpaid for a job like this.

Excellent post!!!

Bravo!!

Neezar
02-26-2009, 05:06 AM
There are always exceptions to the rule.


I still think the union sucks in the Auto industry. :laugh:

logrus
02-26-2009, 05:09 AM
huh? :huh:

:laugh:

I figured if I made it as vague as possible I wouldnt see a 3 day ban.

NateR
02-26-2009, 05:45 AM
I have never understood is how anybody can be anti-union.

I understand the historical reasons for why unions exist and they are very good reasons. Working for a corporation used to be no better than slavery, you were essentially owned by the company that you worked for and, as soon as you could no longer produce, you were cast out into the street and forgotten. So I agree with why unions need to exist. However, they have become so bloated and corrupt that they do more harm than good in many cases.

All this talk about what you "deserve" to make is a little distressing. Deserve based on what exactly? The Constitution never once promised us fair wages, healthcare, retirement benefits, homes to live in, or any sort of financial prosperity. Our Declaration of Independence simple offers the opportunity to pursue happiness, it doesn't guarantee any results whatsoever.

I do understand that certain skills command certain wages. As a Graphic Designer with an Associates degree, I "deserve" to be making a minimum of $35 an hour. However, with my talent level and three years of practical, real world experience, I actually "deserve" to be making between $75 and $150 an hour. Now, do I make that much here in Hillsboro, IL? Not even remotely close. So I can choose to do one of three things:

1. Relocate to a different area - which I don't want to do, just like a guy who works for Dell isn't going to want to move to India just to keep his job.

2. Accept a fraction of what I "deserve" in order to make a living.

3. Hold out for only those jobs that will pay me "what I'm worth" and make no money whatsoever.

Obviously I've chosen #2, but I get so much fulfillment out of my job that I don't miss the extra money (except maybe when my rent is due, but that's temporary :laugh: ).

Now is it fair that American companies can open factories overseas and hire what amounts to slave labor, increasing American unemployment while their profits go up? Of course not! But it's going to be a reality of our world as long as our companies are allowed to relocate overseas. We need to be more nationalistic and punish those corporations who try to outsource their jobs. The government also need to prosecute companies that hire illegal aliens.

We could also do our part as citizens and either boycott or limit purchases from companies that manufacture their products in other countries. Hitting these CEOs in their wallet is the best way to get their attention. For instance, buy a Macintosh computer, not a Dell, and give your money to a company that hires Americans for it's customer service representatives.

Chuck
02-26-2009, 05:48 AM
............and give your money to a company that hires Americans for it's customer service representatives.

IF only such a company actually existed!!!

NateR
02-26-2009, 05:52 AM
IF only such a company actually existed!!!

I just told you, Apple Computers. Also, Yahoo!'s customer service is located in Oregon, I've had to call them twice since we switched back to the Yahoo! server.

Chuck
02-26-2009, 05:53 AM
I just told you, Apple Computers. Also, Yahoo!'s customer service is located in Oregon, I've had to call them twice since we switched back to the Yahoo! server.

I don't beleive it!!!

Lies I say! I thought things like that only existed in fairy tales!

Neezar
02-26-2009, 05:58 AM
I just told you, Apple Computers. Also, Yahoo!'s customer service is located in Oregon, I've had to call them twice since we switched back to the Yahoo! server.

Ah! But did they speak US English? :ninja:

NateR
02-26-2009, 06:05 AM
Ah! But did they speak US English? :ninja:

Yep, they were 100% American. One of the guys even knew who Matt Hughes was and told me that he would be sure to bookmark the website.:cool:

Tyburn
02-26-2009, 12:52 PM
I understand the historical reasons for why unions exist and they are very good reasons. Working for a corporation used to be no better than slavery, you were essentially owned by the company that you worked for and, as soon as you could no longer produce, you were cast out into the street and forgotten. So I agree with why unions need to exist.


2) Our Declaration of Independence simple offers the opportunity to pursue happiness, it doesn't guarantee any results whatsoever.
.
What you dont understand is that for the majority of people it STILL IS...and the boycott idea is the same as a stike...useless unless EVERYONE follows it. Can you guarentee that all Citizens will follow your example, because ONE simply isnt enough to challenge these institutions :ninja:

2) the the American dream is a neatly packaged myth. After all...anyone has any opportunities in any western world country...without the guarentee of sucess, America is no better then anywhere else....it actually has less safeguards then the UK in terms of Employment.

Neezar
02-26-2009, 01:03 PM
2) the the American dream is a neatly packaged myth. After all...anyone has any opportunities in any western world country...without the guarentee of sucess, America is no better then anywhere else....it actually has less safeguards then the UK in terms of Employment.

Exactly! So, you are better off staying there. :ninja:

County Mike
02-26-2009, 01:24 PM
I just told you, Apple Computers. Also, Yahoo!'s customer service is located in Oregon, I've had to call them twice since we switched back to the Yahoo! server.

GoDaddy servers FTW!

http://images.askmen.com/galleries/model/candice-michelle/pictures/candice-michelle-picture-1.jpg

http://www.edrugsearch.com/edsblog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/godaddy-girl-nikki-cappelli.jpg

timmyja
02-27-2009, 01:31 AM
1 So I agree with why unions need to exist. However, they have become so bloated and corrupt that they do more harm than good in many cases.

2. All this talk about what you "deserve" to make is a little distressing. Deserve based on what exactly? The Constitution never once promised us fair wages, healthcare, retirement benefits, homes to live in, or any sort of financial prosperity. Our Declaration of Independence simple offers the opportunity to pursue happiness, it doesn't guarantee any results whatsoever.

3. I do understand that certain skills command certain wages. As a Graphic Designer with an Associates degree, I "deserve" to be making a minimum of $35 an hour. However, with my talent level and three years of practical, real world experience, I actually "deserve" to be making between $75 and $150 an hour. Now, do I make that much here in Hillsboro, IL? Not even remotely close.

1. Relocate to a different area - which I don't want to do, just like a guy who works for Dell isn't going to want to move to India just to keep his job.

2. Accept a fraction of what I "deserve" in order to make a living.

3. Hold out for only those jobs that will pay me "what I'm worth" and make no money whatsoever.

Obviously I've chosen #2, but I get so much fulfillment out of my job that I don't miss the extra money (except maybe when my rent is due, but that's temporary :laugh: ).

4. Now is it fair that American companies can open factories overseas and hire what amounts to slave labor, increasing American unemployment while their profits go up? Of course not! But it's going to be a reality of our world as long as our companies are allowed to relocate overseas. We need to be more nationalistic and punish those corporations who try to outsource their jobs. The government also need to prosecute companies that hire illegal aliens.

5. We could also do our part as citizens and either boycott or limit purchases from companies that manufacture their products in other countries. Hitting these CEOs in their wallet is the best way to get their attention. For instance, buy a Macintosh computer, not a Dell, and give your money to a company that hires Americans for it's customer service representatives.

1. Again, I agree in many cases. Everything in the world has become corrupt tho. Crooked cops, teachers(male and female) having sex with students), crooked politicians. It really is a shame of what things have come to.

2. I agree with you to a point. You provide a service, and you're good at what you do. Phenomenal as a matter of fact. I enjoy the fruits of your labor on a daily basis, everytime I login this site as a matter of fact. I am phenomenal at what I do as well. You reap the benefits from my service everytime you flick a light-switch. It is an underappreciated comfort, but people tend to notice the lack of electricity when the lights go out. We are the heroes of the world when we are turning people back on, but within twenty minutes we are the scum of the earth. :laugh: I have some awesome stories I could get into about some P. R. issues I've had to deal with! I DESERVE to be compensated and compensated well for what I do. That isn't a constitutional issue, that is something I work hard for. The governemnt isn't funding my retirement, the contractors I work for pay into it, and I also have an IRA that I set my PERSONAL money into as well. You are correct, the constitution doesn't guarantee that, but I am taking steps to. My idea of pursuing happiness is the nice big house with a big yard to shoot my guns and ride fourwheelers, with all of my big boy toys, the hot wife and three kids, and early retirement. To pursue these things, with the exception of the wife and kids, I will surely have to make good money. LOL if I could acheive these goals working at 7-11 serving hot dogs I sure in the hell wouldn't be building powerlines! :laugh:

3. Hey, like you said, that is the path you chose. You chose to stay close to home, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is a personal preference. I enjoy when my jobs put me close to home as well! My personal choice is to enjoy the extras that benefit ME, not the company I work for. Like I said, I show up at the same place as these non-union contractors, but why would I work for more money on paper, but in reality make less because I am funding my own insurance and retirement. Drive the same distance and make less.. nah, I'll pass.

4. Could not agree more. Outsourcing jobs and illegal aliens, in my opinion, are the biggest part of what is ruining this country. I will not elaborate, because as I said I don't like arguing political issues. But Nate you should moonlight as a carpenter because you hit that nail right on the head. I am very fortunate to be in a line of work that cannot be outsourced. Its not like you could build a hundred miles worth of powerline and send it back overseas. It just won't happen, but what a sight it would be! I am however, concerned about illegals taking over our trade. I am not concerned about the near future, because you cannot dominate a trade like utilities without english speaking abilities. My trade is not like pouring concrete or hanging drywall, there is a lot of PR and politics, and for the moment I am safe. In the next twenty years or so, I could see them cracking their way in with the next generation of illegals being better educated and probably fluent in english. Scary thought..

5. Again Nate, you should think about carpentry because you are nailing these points down very good. I was raised with the "spend it where I make it" mentality, and that is becoming harder and harder to do these days. This point ties into the above about illegals and outsourcing. What about Wal-Marts? Sure... they are giving plenty of people jobs.. and you can save money with their lower prices... but what dreams could these people hope to afford working there? They are forced to work two jobs to make ends meet, which is unfortunate, but everybody makes their own path in life.

For the record, I don't hate non-union employees. EVERYBODY has the right to feed their family, and I could never look down on any working man for doing so just because he doesn't carry a card like I do. I've made a good living so far being Union, but it is also my choice to be union. I don't know...