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Vizion
04-07-2010, 02:35 AM
Barack OBAMA, in his Cairo speech, said: "I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America 's story."


AN AMERICAN CITIZEN'S RESPONSE:


Dear Mr. Obama:


Where were those Muslims that were in America when the Pilgrims first landed? Funny, I thought they were Native American Indians.


Where were those Muslims that celebrated the first Thanksgiving day? Sorry again, those were Pilgrims and Native American Indians.


Can you show me one Muslim signature on the United States Constitution?


Declaration of Independence?


Bill of Rights?’


Didn't think so.


Did Muslims fight for this country's freedom from England? No.’


Did Muslims fight during the Civil War to free the slaves in America?


No, they did not. In fact, Muslims to this day are still the largest traffickers in human slavery. Your own half brother, a devout Muslim, still advocates slavery himself, even though Muslims of Arabic descent refer to black Muslims as "pug nosed slaves." Says a lot of what the Muslim world really thinks of your family's "rich Islamic heritage," doesn't it Obama?


Where were Muslims during the Civil Rights era of this country?


Not Present. There are no pictures or media accounts of Muslims walking side by side With Martin Luther King, Jr. or helping to advance the cause of Civil Rights.

Where were Muslims during this country's Woman's Suffrage era? Again, not present. In fact, devout Muslims demand that women are subservient to men in the Islamic culture. So much so, that often they are beaten for not wearing the 'hajib' or for talking to a man who is not a direct family member or their husband. Yep, the Muslims are all for women's rights, aren't they?


Where were Muslims during World War II? They were aligned with Adolf Hitler. The Muslim Grand Mufti himself met with Adolf Hitler, reviewed the troops and accepted support from the Nazi's in killing Jews.


Finally, Mr. Obama, where were Muslims on Sept. 11th, 2001? If they weren't flying planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or a field in Pennsylvania killing nearly 3,000 people on our own soil, they were rejoicing in the Middle East. No one can dispute the pictures shown from all parts of the Muslim world celebrating on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and other cable news networks that day. Strangely, the very "moderate" Muslims who's butts you bent over backwards to kiss in Cairo, Egypt on June 4th were stone cold silent post 9-11. To many Americans, their silence has meant approval for the acts of that day.


And THAT, Mr. Obama, is the "rich heritage" Muslims have here in America.


Oh, I forgot to mention the Barbary Pirates. They were Muslim.

And now we can add November 5, 2009- the slaughter of American soldiers at Fort Hood by a Muslim major who was a doctor and a Psychiatrist who was supposed to be counseling soldiers returning from Battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That ......Mr. Obama...... is the "Muslim heritage" in America :rolleyes:

NateR
04-07-2010, 02:56 AM
The only Muslim contribution to American history has been one of murder, terror and barbarism. I can't think of a single positive contribution by Muslims to American culture.

Buzzard
04-07-2010, 03:56 AM
The only Muslim contribution to American history has been one of murder, terror and barbarism. I can't think of a single positive contribution by Muslims to American culture.

Of course you can't, because your apparent hatred of Muslims has blinded you. There are good and bad folks in all walks of life and all religions. All one needs to do is open their eyes to the good that people from all races, religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs and differing cultures have done, instead of being blinded by xenophobia and hatred.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/american-life/Muslim-Students-Bring-Food-Conversation-to-Florida-Homeless-89434512.html

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/muslim_america.html

I've never heard any Muslim people that I know talk smack about Christians in the way that you talk about Muslims.

NateR
04-07-2010, 04:09 AM
Of course you can't, because your apparent hatred of Muslims has blinded you. There are good and bad folks in all walks of life and all religions. All one needs to do is open their eyes to the good that people from all races, religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs and differing cultures have done, instead of being blinded by xenophobia and hatred.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/american-life/Muslim-Students-Bring-Food-Conversation-to-Florida-Homeless-89434512.html

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/muslim_america.html

I've never heard any Muslim people that I know talk smack about Christians in the way that you talk about Muslims.

Simple-minded little Liberal fool. :rolleyes: This has nothing to do with xenophobia or hatred. Your post simply shows how clueless and stupid you are.

Neezar
04-07-2010, 04:15 AM
Simple-minded little Liberal fool. :rolleyes: This has nothing to do with xenophobia or hatred. Your post simply shows how clueless and stupid you are.

I must admit that I did click both links and wonder over the relevance.

NateR
04-07-2010, 04:18 AM
I must admit that I did click both links and wonder over the relevance.

I don't even bother clicking the links he posts anymore. I just had to laugh to myself when he said that Muslims have never said anything bad about Christians, because there is no way any intelligent person can truly be that detached from reality.

Mark
04-07-2010, 04:19 AM
I must admit that I did click both links and wonder over the relevance.

Nice try but Nate doesnt believe anything from the internet.

flo
04-07-2010, 05:31 AM
That was bad but what I found REALLY outrageous was BO referring - once again - to the Cubs and Cominskey park!!

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2010/04/president-obama-praises-cominskey-park/1

My favorite part:
Dibble asked Obama who was one of his favorite White Sox players growing up.

"You know, uh, I thought that, uh, you know, the truth is that a lot of the Cubs I liked, too, but I did not become a Sox fan until I moved to Chicago," Obama said. "I was growing up in Hawaii and so I ended up actually being an Oakland A's fan. But when I moved to Chicago, I was living close to what was then Cominskey Park and went to a couple games and just fell in love."

Where is Mr. Teleprompter when you need him? I guess the corpseman hid it. :laugh:

Here's the original video...sheesh, he LIVED in Chicago and he still doesn't know!

http://www.breitbart.tv/white-sox-fan-obama-botches-name-of-commiskey-field-during-all-star-game-interview/

Why don't these guys just ADMIT they aren't sports fans? It reminds me of good Ol' Lurch talking about his favorite player, Manny Ortiz, and Lambert Field.

:Whistle:

flo
04-07-2010, 05:34 AM
1000! Woohoo!!!

:jumping0045: :party0019: :jumping0044:

:happydancing:

Rev
04-07-2010, 05:35 AM
Of course you can't, because your apparent hatred of Muslims has blinded you. There are good and bad folks in all walks of life and all religions. All one needs to do is open their eyes to the good that people from all races, religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs and differing cultures have done, instead of being blinded by xenophobia and hatred.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news...-89434512.html

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/muslim_america.html

I've never heard any Muslim people that I know talk smack about Christians in the way that you talk about Muslims.

Ok dude, it is things like this that make me not want to come on the forum anymore, because I have to see stupid post like that. What made you so anti-America? Nevermind, dont answer. i know that you are going to make a half clever attempt to make me look bad so take your best shot. Know this, if Mark or NateR ever do decide to open up the nominating floor for getting rid of people, your name is the first from me and I am willing to bet that you will get the votes just like your hero, the anti-American president did.

I know you are going to call me intolerant and that may be true when it comes to your crap. I vote that the Canucks get to stay, and most everyone else on here, even people that I disagree with ALOT, but you have to go.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:17 AM
I have been called a racist time and time again for talking about the Muslims. Buzzard will say things like their is good Muslims out there. I call B.S. Prove it. Show me one good thing a Muslim has done good in our Country. I am not going to fall into their trap by them saying they are another form of the religion so they can take our Country down. It is people like Buzz that make this Country look bad. He has his own way of thinking that's for sure. You ask Nate or anyone not to have Hatred towards Muslims. There is 3,000 reason why I can't stand them. That's about how many Americans died that day. For what reason. Then I hear two people on here tell me that they (the Muslims) may have had a right and we the Americans were at fault. I will tell you what. Do not ever come on this site again and say the Americans were at fault for any reason because you can't provide any proof and even if you did provide proof I love this country and will honor this Country until my dieing day. This is a site I found with some good information.
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm

I personally can't see why you would even try to defend them. Please explain why? Please don't give me this bull $hit excuse saying that they are more American than I am and they they have rights. The heck with them and their rights. The only rights they should have is the right to move out this Country.

Keep calling me a racist because I know my God knows better. I was always told you were not supposed to hate people but if you Hate my God and My Country then I guess the feeling is mutual.
I would vote to ban him any day.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:20 AM
In case you do not click my link here is the number.

9/11 by the Numbers
Death, destruction, charity, salvation, war, money, real estate, spouses, babies, and other September 11 statistics.






The initial numbers are indelible: 8:46 a.m. and 9:02 a.m. Time the burning towers stood: 56 minutes and 102 minutes. Time they took to fall: 12 seconds. From there, they ripple out.

Total number killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819
Number of firefighters and paramedics killed: 343
Number of NYPD officers: 23
Number of Port Authority police officers: 37
Number of WTC companies that lost people: 60
Number of employees who died in Tower One: 1,402
Number of employees who died in Tower Two: 614
Number of employees lost at Cantor Fitzgerald: 658
Number of U.S. troops killed in Operation Enduring Freedom: 22
Number of nations whose citizens were killed in attacks: 115
Ratio of men to women who died: 3:1
Age of the greatest number who died: between 35 and 39
Bodies found "intact": 289
Body parts found: 19,858
Number of families who got no remains: 1,717
Estimated units of blood donated to the New York Blood Center: 36,000
Total units of donated blood actually used: 258
Number of people who lost a spouse or partner in the attacks: 1,609
Estimated number of children who lost a parent: 3,051
Percentage of Americans who knew someone hurt or killed in the attacks: 20
FDNY retirements, January–July 2001: 274
FDNY retirements, January–July 2002: 661
Number of firefighters on leave for respiratory problems by January 2002: 300
Number of funerals attended by Rudy Giuliani in 2001: 200
Number of FDNY vehicles destroyed: 98
Tons of debris removed from site: 1,506,124
Days fires continued to burn after the attack: 99
Jobs lost in New York owing to the attacks: 146,100
Days the New York Stock Exchange was closed: 6
Point drop in the Dow Jones industrial average when the NYSE reopened: 684.81
Days after 9/11 that the U.S. began bombing Afghanistan: 26
Total number of hate crimes reported to the Council on American-Islamic Relations nationwide since 9/11: 1,714
Economic loss to New York in month following the attacks: $105 billion
Estimated cost of cleanup: $600 million
Total FEMA money spent on the emergency: $970 million
Estimated amount donated to 9/11 charities: $1.4 billion
Estimated amount of insurance paid worldwide related to 9/11: $40.2 billion
Estimated amount of money needed to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $7.5 billion
Amount of money recently granted by U.S. government to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $4.55 billion
Estimated amount of money raised for funds dedicated to NYPD and FDNY families: $500 million
Percentage of total charity money raised going to FDNY and NYPD families: 25
Average benefit already received by each FDNY and NYPD widow: $1 million
Percentage increase in law-school applications from 2001 to 2002: 17.9
Percentage increase in Peace Corps applications from 2001 to 2002: 40
Percentage increase in CIA applications from 2001 to 2002: 50
Number of songs Clear Channel Radio considered "inappropriate" to play after 9/11: 150
Number of mentions of 9/11 at the Oscars: 26
Apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup: 30,000
Number of apartments whose residents have requested cleanup and testing: 4,110
Number of Americans who changed their 2001 holiday-travel plans from plane to train or car: 1.4 million
Estimated number of New Yorkers suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder as a result of 9/11: 422,000

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:22 AM
If this don't put a tear in your eye then you have no rights to call yourself an American. Plum dam heartless them Muslims are.
Number of families who got no remains: 1,717

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:23 AM
This should be replayed every day for the rest of our lives. Remember 9-11

mscomc
04-07-2010, 06:27 AM
The only Muslim contribution to American history has been one of murder, terror and barbarism. I can't think of a single positive contribution by Muslims to American culture.

With all respect nate, I think thats a stretch. I think you are speaking with a little anger in your heart here when you say that. No contributions you say???

1) Land Cultivation / Discovery / military:

The United States Cavalry hired a Muslim by the name of Hajj Ali to experiment with breeding and raising camels in the deserts of Arizona. Hajj Ali came from Syria in the mid 1850's, and in 1868 he went to work prospecting and scouting for the government. He was given the quaint, American nickname 'Hi Jolly' as he became a local folk hero in Quartzsite, AZ, where he died in 1902. His tombstone is a stone pyramid with a camel on top of it in 1935 --- http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=25398

Austin, Allan D. (1994) "Mohammed Ali Ben Said: Travels on Five Continents," Contributions in Black Studies: Vol. 12, Article 15.

"An African immigrant Muslim, Muhammad Ali Ben Said, joined the 55th Regiment of Massachusetts Colored Volunteers. Serving in Company 1, Muhammad rose from corporal to sergeant by July 16, 1863" --- has been called one of the first people to encourage blacks to willingly enlist in the armed forces (not to sure on that, but its a nice story).

2 ) Sports

Muhammad Ali, a boxer, is one of the most famous and world-recognized personalities of the twentieth century. Other Muslim boxers --Saad Muhammad, Eddie Mustafa, Dwight Braxton (Muhammad Qawi Ali), bernard hopkins etc.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar, a member of basketball Hall-of Fame, is one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Other famous Muslim basketball players are Jamal Wilkes, Walt Hazzard, Charlie Scott (Shaheed abdul Aleem), Spencer Haywood, Hakeem Olajuwoon (another hall of famer)

3) Civil rights movement:

Malcolm X, to his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans. He has been described as one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history. Martin Luther King jr, is quoted as saying "While we did not always see eye to eye on methods to solve the race problem, I always had a deep affection for Malcolm and felt that he had a great ability to put his finger on the existence and root of the problem. He was an eloquent spokesman for his point of view and no one can honestly doubt that Malcolm had a great concern for the problems that we face as a race"


4) Architecture and Engineering:

Fazlur Rahman Khan, was a Bangladeshi-American architect and structural engineer. He is a central figure behind the "Second Chicago School" of architecture He is also considered to be the "Einstein of structural engineering" and "the greatest structural engineer of the second half of the 20th century" for his innovative use of structural systems that remain fundamental to modern skyscraper construction. His most famous buildings are the John Hancock Center and the Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower), which was the world's tallest building for several decades.

-----Billington, David P. (1985), The Tower and the Bridge: The New Art of Structural Engineering, Princeton University Press, pp. 234–5, ISBN 069102393X


5) Science:

Ahmed Zewail is the Linus Pauling Chair Professor Chemistry and Professor of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. He is the 1999 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his work on femtochemistry. This has a HUGE impact on potential drug design, medicine or new energy sources.

Dr. Zewail is also expected to participate in President Barack Obama's Presidential Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST).


Dr. Elias Zerhouni was the 15th director of the National Institutes of Health, appointed by George W. Bush in May 2002. He has won several awards for his research including a Gold Medal from the American Roentgen Ray Society for CT research and two Paul Lauterbur Awards for MRI research. His research in imaging led to advances in Computed tomography (CAT scanning) and Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) that resulted in 157 peer reviewed publications and 8 patents.


There have been dozens of famous Muslims in Jazz music, arts, and other entertainment fields....go look it up for yourself.

1) akon
2) dave chappelle
3) Ice Cube
4) Busta rhymes

etc etc etc


---------------------------------------------


Now that I have bored you all to death...Nate, come on man, this took me like 15 minutes and the wonder that is GOOGLE. Surely you can't say you did NOT know any of these contributions? I mean for someone who has such a profound knowledge of history. It sounds to me like your holding on to some major anger friend.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:36 AM
Cassius Clay

Originally known as Cassius Clay, Ali changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam in 1964, subsequently converting to Sunni Islam in 1975. In 1967, Ali refused to be inducted into the U.S. military based on his religious beliefs and opposition to the Vietnam War. He was arrested and found guilty on draft evasion charges, stripped of his boxing title, and his boxing license was suspended. He was not imprisoned, but did not fight again for nearly four years while his appeal worked its way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, where it was successful.

He was converted into a Muslim because his scared behind didn't want to defend our Country. How do we in our right mind call this man an American Hero is beyond me.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 06:38 AM
Cassius Clay

Originally known as Cassius Clay, Ali changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam in 1964, subsequently converting to Sunni Islam in 1975. In 1967, Ali refused to be inducted into the U.S. military based on his religious beliefs and opposition to the Vietnam War. He was arrested and found guilty on draft evasion charges, stripped of his boxing title, and his boxing license was suspended. He was not imprisoned, but did not fight again for nearly four years while his appeal worked its way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, where it was successful.

He was converted into a Muslim because his scared behind didn't want to defend our Country. How do we in our right mind call this man an American Hero is beyond me.

----- Out of all I wrote, all you had to comment on is Muhammad Ali? You are at him for not wanting to serve in a war, that he was being DRAFTED into against his will??? Ok thats your belief. This guy also represented America in the 1960 olympics and won Gold.

He was scared??? A man who made his living FIGHTING other people for a living was scared??? I doubt that.

Buzzard
04-07-2010, 06:39 AM
Simple-minded little Liberal fool. :rolleyes: This has nothing to do with xenophobia or hatred. Your post simply shows how clueless and stupid you are.

Ah the name calling again. Great tactic, NOT. Shows you've got no game. Typical ignorant childish behavior. Your posts show how blind, ignorant, stupid, xenophobic and weak in the brain you are. You should search for the clues because clearly you have none. If you want to call me names, remember I'm not a Liberal and you keep looking more and more foolish every time you try to spin it that way. Maybe that's just how you roll.

I don't even bother clicking the links he posts anymore. I just had to laugh to myself when he said that Muslims have never said anything bad about Christians, because there is no way any intelligent person can truly be that detached from reality.

I guess I can add that you can't comprehend what you read too. Folks that have a clue would see that I said Muslims that I know and talked to never said anything bad about Christians to me. Nice try there, NOT! You are quite detached from reality, and clearly your intelligence has left something to be desired. Learn to read and comprehend before you spout your grade-school crap.

I must admit that I did click both links and wonder over the relevance.

NateR said:The only Muslim contribution to American history has been one of murder, terror and barbarism. I can't think of a single positive contribution by Muslims to American culture.

It seems that the links I posted showed some positive things Muslims have done for American people which will go down in history as a positive. The second link showed a bit about their sharing of their cultural, religious holiday of Ramadan. Therefore, they have shared a positive contribution to American culture. If Americans follow Ramadan, it's part of American citizens culture whether you like it or not.

Nice try but Nate doesnt believe anything from the internet.

Unless when NateR uses wiki for his own resources.


Ok dude, it is things like this that make me not want to come on the forum anymore, because I have to see stupid post like that.

Yeah, I can understand wanting to see stupid posts like NateR's. I agree with you fully.


What made you so anti-America? Nevermind, dont answer. i know that you are going to make a half clever attempt to make me look bad so take your best shot.

Me anti-American? Hah! I represent values that stand for America. Like it or not, America isn't a Christian nation. I don't hate people for their religious beliefs, even if I think they are batpoop crazy. I'm good unless they are forced and shoved down my throat. I find it appalling that some so called Christians haven't learned a thing from their good book, and have no problem lumping folks of other religions under the crap blanket that NateR swaddled them in.


Know this, if Mark or NateR ever do decide to open up the nominating floor for getting rid of people, your name is the first from me and I am willing to bet that you will get the votes just like your hero, the anti-American president did.

Yeah, I get it, kick the person out if their views don't jive with your own and you don't have the mental capacity to have a civilized debate.


I know you are going to call me intolerant and that may be true when it comes to your crap. I vote that the Canucks get to stay, and most everyone else on here, even people that I disagree with ALOT, but you have to go.

I just think you aren't capable of having an in depth adult conversation and want to take the chickens way out by removing the people that stand against things you believe in. If that's not a cowards way out, I don't know what is. That's like the French guy on TUF quitting and as Chuck said verbally tapping out while taking strikes.

I know that I pose many challenges to you, and if you treat me civilly we're good. If I see crap, I call crap and let you know why. May I suggest that you try to engage in conversation and possible learn something. I've learned quite a bit on this forum and have received PM's telling me that I am holding my own and that folks enjoy reading what I have to say. They may not necessarily agree with my points of view, but they appreciate me expressing my viewpoint. Don't run away, engage.

You know wrong, because I wasn't going to call you intolerant.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:40 AM
Again Dave Chappelle was converted.

Chappelle is a Muslim; he converted to Islam in 1998. He told Time Magazine in a May 2005 interview, “I don’t normally talk about my religion publicly because I don’t want people to associate me and my flaws with this beautiful thing. And I believe it is beautiful if you learn it the right way."[13]

mscomc
04-07-2010, 06:42 AM
I have been called a racist time and time again for talking about the Muslims. Buzzard will say things like their is good Muslims out there. I call B.S. Prove it. Show me one good thing a Muslim has done good in our Country. I am not going to fall into their trap by them saying they are another form of the religion so they can take our Country down. It is people like Buzz that make this Country look bad. He has his own way of thinking that's for sure. You ask Nate or anyone not to have Hatred towards Muslims. There is 3,000 reason why I can't stand them. That's about how many Americans died that day. For what reason. Then I hear two people on here tell me that they (the Muslims) may have had a right and we the Americans were at fault. I will tell you what. Do not ever come on this site again and say the Americans were at fault for any reason because you can't provide any proof and even if you did provide proof I love this country and will honor this Country until my dieing day. This is a site I found with some good information.
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm

I personally can't see why you would even try to defend them. Please explain why? Please don't give me this bull $hit excuse saying that they are more American than I am and they they have rights. The heck with them and their rights. The only rights they should have is the right to move out this Country.

Keep calling me a racist because I know my God knows better. I was always told you were not supposed to hate people but if you Hate my God and My Country then I guess the feeling is mutual.
I would vote to ban him any day.

Donald, can you pick a side for once?????

Here is your order on things....

1) you say you hate muslims or terrorists or anyone trying to hurt america

2) then explain 'why' you do....and its usually "questionable"...

3) Then you say....Ok, Im sorry, I dont mean to offend, I dont HATE anyone.

4) I love god, and god loves me, I love everyone.

----- Then you start the whole thing over again.

Geeze man, pick a side already. Whatever side you pick, thats fine, just stick to it. You flip-flop your oppinions more than John Kerry did in 2004.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 06:43 AM
Again Dave Chappelle was converted.

Chappelle is a Muslim; he converted to Islam in 1998. He told Time Magazine in a May 2005 interview, “I don’t normally talk about my religion publicly because I don’t want people to associate me and my flaws with this beautiful thing. And I believe it is beautiful if you learn it the right way."[13]

I am not following your logic.....because they are converts, they dont count????

yawn, oook, whatever. Why dont you try adressing some of the other point I made.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:45 AM
----- Out of all I wrote, all you had to comment on is Muhammad Ali? You are at him for not wanting to serve in a war, that he was being DRAFTED into against his will??? Ok thats your belief. This guy also represented America in the 1960 olympics and won Gold.

He was scared??? A man who made his living FIGHTING other people for a living was scared??? I doubt that.

A bullet and Fist is two different things. I call him scared and he is no Hero.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:47 AM
I actually respect you Ms. I am getting to that now. I do not think you can classify someone as being an American Hero as a Muslim when they converted to something. I mean I can see your point but still.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 06:48 AM
I actually respect you Ms. I am getting to that now. I do not think you can classify someone as being an American Hero as a Muslim when they converted to something. I mean I can see your point but still.

hmmm, ok. If that is how you see things. Fine by me.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:51 AM
Jamaal Wilkes (born Jackson Keith Wilkes on May 2, 1953 in Berkeley, California) is a retired American basketball player who played the small forward position and won four NBA championships with the Los Angeles Lakers and Golden State Warriors. Wilkes was also a key player in the run of NCAA championships accumulated during the John Wooden era of UCLA basketball. Upon entering the NBA in 1974, Wilkes converted to Islam and legally changed his name to Jamaal Abdul-Lateef, but retained his surname throughout his NBA career. He has since reverted to usage of Jamaal Keith Wilkes in his personal and professional life.

Converted.

Buzzard
04-07-2010, 06:51 AM
With all respect nate, I think thats a stretch. I think you are speaking with a little anger in your heart here when you say that. No contributions you say???

1) Land Cultivation / Discovery / military:

The United States Cavalry hired a Muslim by the name of Hajj Ali to experiment with breeding and raising camels in the deserts of Arizona. Hajj Ali came from Syria in the mid 1850's, and in 1868 he went to work prospecting and scouting for the government. He was given the quaint, American nickname 'Hi Jolly' as he became a local folk hero in Quartzsite, AZ, where he died in 1902. His tombstone is a stone pyramid with a camel on top of it in 1935 --- http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=25398

Austin, Allan D. (1994) "Mohammed Ali Ben Said: Travels on Five Continents," Contributions in Black Studies: Vol. 12, Article 15.

"An African immigrant Muslim, Muhammad Ali Ben Said, joined the 55th Regiment of Massachusetts Colored Volunteers. Serving in Company 1, Muhammad rose from corporal to sergeant by July 16, 1863" --- has been called one of the first people to encourage blacks to willingly enlist in the armed forces (not to sure on that, but its a nice story).

2 ) Sports

Muhammad Ali, a boxer, is one of the most famous and world-recognized personalities of the twentieth century. Other Muslim boxers --Saad Muhammad, Eddie Mustafa, Dwight Braxton (Muhammad Qawi Ali), bernard hopkins etc.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar, a member of basketball Hall-of Fame, is one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Other famous Muslim basketball players are Jamal Wilkes, Walt Hazzard, Charlie Scott (Shaheed abdul Aleem), Spencer Haywood, Hakeem Olajuwoon (another hall of famer)

3) Civil rights movement:

Malcolm X, to his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans. He has been described as one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history. Martin Luther King jr, is quoted as saying "While we did not always see eye to eye on methods to solve the race problem, I always had a deep affection for Malcolm and felt that he had a great ability to put his finger on the existence and root of the problem. He was an eloquent spokesman for his point of view and no one can honestly doubt that Malcolm had a great concern for the problems that we face as a race"


4) Architecture and Engineering:

Fazlur Rahman Khan, was a Bangladeshi-American architect and structural engineer. He is a central figure behind the "Second Chicago School" of architecture He is also considered to be the "Einstein of structural engineering" and "the greatest structural engineer of the second half of the 20th century" for his innovative use of structural systems that remain fundamental to modern skyscraper construction. His most famous buildings are the John Hancock Center and the Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower), which was the world's tallest building for several decades.

-----Billington, David P. (1985), The Tower and the Bridge: The New Art of Structural Engineering, Princeton University Press, pp. 234–5, ISBN 069102393X


5) Science:

Ahmed Zewail is the Linus Pauling Chair Professor Chemistry and Professor of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. He is the 1999 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his work on femtochemistry. This has a HUGE impact on potential drug design, medicine or new energy sources.

Dr. Zewail is also expected to participate in President Barack Obama's Presidential Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST).


Dr. Elias Zerhouni was the 15th director of the National Institutes of Health, appointed by George W. Bush in May 2002. He has won several awards for his research including a Gold Medal from the American Roentgen Ray Society for CT research and two Paul Lauterbur Awards for MRI research. His research in imaging led to advances in Computed tomography (CAT scanning) and Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) that resulted in 157 peer reviewed publications and 8 patents.


There have been dozens of famous Muslims in Jazz music, arts, and other entertainment fields....go look it up for yourself.

1) akon
2) dave chappelle
3) Ice Cube
4) Busta rhymes

etc etc etc


---------------------------------------------


Now that I have bored you all to death...Nate, come on man, this took me like 15 minutes and the wonder that is GOOGLE. Surely you can't say you did NOT know any of these contributions? I mean for someone who has such a profound knowledge of history. It sounds to me like your holding on to some major anger friend.

Thanks for the rational reply, mine was sparked with a bit of anger and disgust myself. I've tried to tone that down and only reply that way when talked down to as NateR likes to do. I shall try to refrain from that from now on.

Move on folks, nothing to see here.

Buzzard
04-07-2010, 06:54 AM
Jamaal Wilkes (born Jackson Keith Wilkes on May 2, 1953 in Berkeley, California) is a retired American basketball player who played the small forward position and won four NBA championships with the Los Angeles Lakers and Golden State Warriors. Wilkes was also a key player in the run of NCAA championships accumulated during the John Wooden era of UCLA basketball. Upon entering the NBA in 1974, Wilkes converted to Islam and legally changed his name to Jamaal Abdul-Lateef, but retained his surname throughout his NBA career. He has since reverted to usage of Jamaal Keith Wilkes in his personal and professional life.

Converted.

You converted to Christianity, so what's your point?

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:55 AM
Donald, can you pick a side for once?????

Here is your order on things....

1) you say you hate muslims or terrorists or anyone trying to hurt america

2) then explain 'why' you do....and its usually "questionable"...

3) Then you say....Ok, Im sorry, I dont mean to offend, I dont HATE anyone.

4) I love god, and god loves me, I love everyone.

----- Then you start the whole thing over again.

Geeze man, pick a side already. Whatever side you pick, thats fine, just stick to it. You flip-flop your oppinions more than John Kerry did in 2004.

I actually have never switched any side. I am on Gods side and My Countries side. Never have I changed. I tried to see your points but Honestly you make none when it come to the Muslim faith. They hate America and they hate Christians. If you hate my God and hate my Country then I am allowed to hate you. Bottom line is I have never flipped any side. You said their was good Muslims and one of the first you put on here is Cassius Clay. Come on he is no American Hero.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 06:56 AM
Jamaal Wilkes (born Jackson Keith Wilkes on May 2, 1953 in Berkeley, California) is a retired American basketball player who played the small forward position and won four NBA championships with the Los Angeles Lakers and Golden State Warriors. Wilkes was also a key player in the run of NCAA championships accumulated during the John Wooden era of UCLA basketball. Upon entering the NBA in 1974, Wilkes converted to Islam and legally changed his name to Jamaal Abdul-Lateef, but retained his surname throughout his NBA career. He has since reverted to usage of Jamaal Keith Wilkes in his personal and professional life.

Converted.

Donald I still dont see your point. This guy made all his acheivements when he converted. Today, he practices islam, the guy is a muslim. Conversion has no bearing on that. If you asked him what religon you practice, he would probably say islam. Faulty logic in my oppinon.

Are you saying that someone who starts out "one way", can not be acknowledged by another group as a member of that group?

I mean, what about a family who adopts a child? can that child really be a member of that family, after all she was NOT born into that family, she just wound up there. If I used your logic, NO she can't be. Do you believe that?

---peoples identities change!!!!

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:58 AM
Ahmed Hassan Zewail (Arabic: أحمد حسن زويل‎) (born February 26, 1946 in Damanhour, Egypt) is an Egyptian-American scientist, and the winner of the 1999 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his work on femtochemistry. He is the Linus Pauling Chair Professor Chemistry and Professor of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. Dr. Zewail has been nominated and will participate in President Barack Obama's Presidential Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST). The council will talk about education, science, defense, energy, the economy, and technology.


After some post doctorate work at UC-Berkeley, he was awarded a faculty appointment at Caltech in 1976, where he has remained since. He became a naturalized citizen of the United States in 2010, and in 121605, he was made the first Linus Pauling Chair in Chemical Physics.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 06:59 AM
I actually have never switched any side. I am on Gods side and My Countries side. Never have I changed. I tried to see your points but Honestly you make none when it come to the Muslim faith. They hate America and they hate Christians. If you hate my God and hate my Country then I am allowed to hate you. Bottom line is I have never flipped any side. You said their was good Muslims and one of the first you put on here is Cassius Clay. Come on he is no American Hero.

Donald!!!!!!!!!!!!



I listed 5 categories of mulsim contribution....that took me a few minutes. I can already tell you didnt read the whole thing. Pitty!!! I always read your posts and links.....ah well.

Look if you dont understand some of the: science, engineering things I posted thats fine....but all you did was comment on the sports and entertainment section, and I still dont know what the hell your talking about. So dont say I gave NO points. I have given plenty. You have given no points.....

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 06:59 AM
Donald I still dont see your point. This guy made all his acheivements when he converted. Today, he practices islam, the guy is a muslim. Conversion has no bearing on that. If you asked him what religon you practice, he would probably say islam. Faulty logic in my oppinon.

Are you saying that someone who starts out "one way", can not be acknowledged by another group as a member of that group?

I mean, what about a family who adopts a child? can that child really be a member of that family, after all she was NOT born into that family, she just wound up there. If I used your logic, NO she can't be. Do you believe that?

---peoples identities change!!!!

You're Right on this one.
But to put it that way then why did he change his name again. Did he convert and reconvert and convert again.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:02 AM
Donald!!!!!!!!!!!!



I listed 5 categories of mulsim contribution....that took me a few minutes. I can already tell you didnt read the whole thing. Pitty!!! I always read your posts and links.....ah well.

Look if you dont understand some of the: science, engineering things I posted thats fine....but all you did was comment on the sports and entertainment section, and I still dont know what the hell your talking about. So dont say I gave NO points. I have given plenty. You have given no points.....

No sir I wouldn't disrespect your intelligence like that. I did read and I still am researching.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 07:02 AM
You're Right on this one.

HUH? so you agree with what I said....be more specific.

Donald I still dont know what the hell you are talking about when it comes to people coming to america and contributing, like the egyptian chemist who won the nobel prize. That guy has made no contribution to the US???

if you really believe that.....seriously, its a complete lack of education.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:08 AM
HUH? so you agree with what I said....be more specific.

Donald I still dont know what the hell you are talking about when it comes to people coming to america and contributing, like the egyptian chemist who won the nobel prize. That guy has made no contribution to the US???

if you really believe that.....seriously, its a complete lack of education.

They gave Barack Obama a nobel for doing nothing. I do not call that credible evidence.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mscomc
Donald I still dont see your point. This guy made all his acheivements when he converted. Today, he practices islam, the guy is a muslim. Conversion has no bearing on that. If you asked him what religon you practice, he would probably say islam. Faulty logic in my oppinon.

Are you saying that someone who starts out "one way", can not be acknowledged by another group as a member of that group?

I mean, what about a family who adopts a child? can that child really be a member of that family, after all she was NOT born into that family, she just wound up there. If I used your logic, NO she can't be. Do you believe that?

---peoples identities change!!!!

I agree with whats in bold

Buzzard
04-07-2010, 07:18 AM
I have been called a racist time and time again for talking about the Muslims.

Because you spout racist and xenophobic statements.

Buzzard will say things like their is good Muslims out there. I call B.S. Prove it. Show me one good thing a Muslim has done good in our Country.

Read what Mscomc wrote. Read the first link I put in. I didn't even break a sweat finding numerous other good things Muslims have done. I've had nice things done for me both professionally and civilly by Muslims.

I am not going to fall into their trap by them saying they are another form of the religion so they can take our Country down.

It seems like you have fallen into another trap.

It is people like Buzz that make this Country look bad. He has his own way of thinking that's for sure.

No, it's things that you say that make you look bad, along with The United States. I'm against hating foreigners, you seem to be ok with it. I'm for protecting our country here on the home-front, not sure if you are. I'm here trying to speak and spell properly so we don't look like uneducated morons; I hope you would try that too.:wink:


You ask Nate or anyone not to have Hatred towards Muslims. There is 3,000 reason why I can't stand them. That's about how many Americans died that day. For what reason.

Do you hate the Saudi's? It was Saudi citizens who carried out the attack. Do you hate the Japanese for Pearl Harbor? Do you hate all Christians because some have raped, killed or murdered?

Then I hear two people on here tell me that they (the Muslims) may have had a right and we the Americans were at fault.

Who are these two people which you refer to?

I will tell you what. Do not ever come on this site again and say the Americans were at fault for any reason because you can't provide any proof and even if you did provide proof I love this country and will honor this Country until my dieing day. This is a site I found with some good information.
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm

You lost me, first you say don't say America was at fault for any reason because you have no proof, then say that even if there was proof that America was at fault, it doesn't matter. If by some wacked out chance America brought this terror attack against us, you wouldn't care and make those responsible pay! How Un-American.

I personally can't see why you would even try to defend them. Please explain why?

Who and what are you rambling about? Defend whom?

Please don't give me this bull $hit excuse saying that they are more American than I am and they they have rights. The heck with them and their rights. The only rights they should have is the right to move out this Country.

Again, what the heck are you talking about?????:frantics:

Keep calling me a racist because I know my God knows better. I was always told you were not supposed to hate people but if you Hate my God and My Country then I guess the feeling is mutual.
I would vote to ban him any day.

Your actions and words are what label you as a racist; you said and wrote them. I don't hate what I don't believe in, that being your god. Of course you would vote to ban me, it must be hard getting your ass handed to you over and over and over again.

I'd vote for you for Prom Queen.:wink::laugh:

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:20 AM
Buzzard wrote:
Me anti-American? Hah! I represent values that stand for America. Like it or not, America isn't a Christian nation. I don't hate people for their religious beliefs, even if I think they are batpoop crazy. I'm good unless they are forced and shoved down my throat. I find it appalling that some so called Christians haven't learned a thing from their good book, and have no problem lumping folks of other religions under the crap blanket that NateR swaddled them in.

I don't wanna go through this again but America was founded on Christian Beliefs. The Pilgrims came here for freedom of Religion which they believed in Christ Jesus. So I would have to say yeah it was founded under Christian Morals.

Buzzard
04-07-2010, 07:27 AM
I don't wanna go through this again but America was founded on Christian Beliefs. The Pilgrims came here for freedom of Religion which they believed in Christ Jesus. So I would have to say yeah it was founded under Christian Morals.

Burning the witches at the stake were sure some nice, fine, strong Christian morals.:rolleyes:

Again, we are not a Christian nation. If we are, please show me where in our CONUS or DoI it states that.

J.B.
04-07-2010, 07:28 AM
Ali and Hopkins....wow...I will not disagree that they have achieved great things and they consider themselves Muslims. Not at all...

Still, what a travesty that anybody would even think they should be put in the same sentence. As Boxers, and in character they are not even on the same level.

Hopkins converted to Islam like a lot of black youths do...by ending up in prison where racial divides are thick. Same way Mike Tyson converted to Islam after going to prison. Hopkins was mugging people and robbing cars and ended up in prison for over 5 years. What he has accomplished IN THE RING, since then has been great, but his character has ALWAYS been a big criticism, and rightfully so. They don't call B-Hop the dirtiest fighter in the game for nothing....:rolleyes:

As for Ali, he is a LEGEND in the ring. NO DOUBT. But to be fair, he was actually raised a Baptist, and he didn't change his name until the 60's when he was protesting the war. He actually refused to enter the military and was found guilty of draft-dodging, for which he subsequently was stripped of his title and his boxing license.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:33 AM
Buzzard you have never handed my ass to me man. You may think you have but you didn't. You are in your own little war thinking you're winning something and giving yourself little High fives but really you're not winning anything.

We are at war with Muslims. Plain and simple. That's the truth. Do I hate all Muslims. To be honest with you I can't say that I do. I never said I do hate all Muslims. What I did say and have always said though is that I hate anyone who wants to do harm to my Country or Hates my God. I have never said that I don't like blacks. I never said I don't like Japs. Heck I love Sushi and I want to go to Japan sooo bad. I actually sub work from a Muslim who I think is a very nice guy. He doesn't like what the Muslims are doing in this country either. To tell you the truth I am more worried about converted Muslims than I am about Muslims who have been practicing that faith for years. Any way I don't see how I am a racist at all.

I do not hate foreigners. This Country was built by immigrants. If it wasn't for foreigners America would not be what it is today.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:38 AM
I am not on here to say my religion is better than your religion. I think that is Crazy and I do find that some Christians are extremely crazy. They will tell you to live your life one way and then they will live their life another. I do not agree with that and would never ever force my religion on anyone. I have made the mistake and tried to do that early on but now that I have learned a bit I will not do so. To sit here and say that America was not founded for Christians or Upon God then you are crazy and you my friend need to learn about our Country.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:43 AM
Buzzard what does it say atop the Washington Monument?

Laus deo which means praise be to God.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:53 AM
1490-1492 – Columbus’ commission was given to set out to find a new world.

According to Columbus’ personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to “bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. …. It was the Lord who put into my mind … that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies … I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely … No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service.” (Columbus’ Book of Prophecies)


April 10, 1606 – The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:

“To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God.”

November 3, 1620 – King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.

“In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty.”

November 11, 1620 – The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.

“For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith … doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick.”

March 4, 1629 – The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:

“For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion..”

January 14, 1638 – The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.

“To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe…”

August 4, 1639 – The governing body of New Hampshire is established.

“Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God…”

September 26, 1642 – The rules and precepts that were to govern Harvard were set up.

“Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3 and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdome, Let every one seriously set himselfe by prayer in secret to seeke it of him Prov. 2.3.”

Harvard College was founded on Christi Gloriam and later dedicated Christo et Ecclesiae. The founders of Harvard believed that “all knowledge without Christ was vain.”

The charter of Yale University clearly expressed the purpose for which the school was founded: “Whereas several well disposed and Publick spirited Persons of their sincere Regard to & zeal for upholding & propagating of the Christian Protestant Religion … youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church & Civil State.”

In addition to Harvard and Yale, 106 out of the first 108 schools in America were founded on the Christian faith.

April 3, 1644 – The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.

“That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses … be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction …”

1647 – Governor William Bradford publishes Of Plimouth Plantation.

“Lastly, (and which was not least,) a great hope and inward zeall they (the Pilgrims) had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for ye propagation and advancing of ye gospell or ye kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of ye world; yea, though they should be but stepping-stones unto others for ye performing of so great a work … their desires were set on ye ways of God, and to employ his ordinances; but they rested on his providence, and know whom they had beleeved.”

April 21, 1649 – The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.

“Be it therefor … enacted … that no person or persons whatsoever within this province … professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall … henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) … in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof …”

April 25, 1689 – The Great Law of Pennsylvania is passed.

“Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government … therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God …”

May 20, 1775 – North Carolina passes the Mecklenburg County Resolutions.

“We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of a right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no other power than that of our God and the general government of Congress.”

Summer 12, 1775 – Continental Congress issues a call to all citizens to fast and pray and confess their sin that the Lord might bless the land.

“And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and to abstain from servile labor and recreation on said day.”

Summer 2-4, 1776 – Declaration of Independence written and signed.

“We hold these truths … that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights … appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world … And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence…”

As the Declaration was being signed, Samuel Adams said: “We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come.”

On the same day, Benjamin Franklin suggested that the national motto be: “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

Historian and philosopher G.K. Chesterton said of the founding of America that it is “the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth in dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence.”

September 17, 1787 – The Constitution of the United States is finished.

At least 50 out of the 55 men who framed the Constitution of the United States were professing Christians. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company, Plymouth Rock Foundation., 1982).

Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

The Constitution of each of the 50 States acknowledges and calls upon the Providence of God for the blessings of freedom.

1787 – James Madison, the “architect” of the federal Constitution and fourth president:

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future .. upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

April 30, 1789 – Washington gives his First Inaugural Address.

“My fervent supplications to that Almighty Being Who rules over the universe, Who presides in the council of nations, and Whose providential aid can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by Himself for these essential purposes.”

March 11, 1792 – President George Washington:

“I am sure that never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency which so often manifested in the Revolution.”

December 20, 1820 – Daniel Webster, Plymouth Massachusetts:

“Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers brought hither their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate … and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political and literary.”

July 4, 1821 – John Quincy Adams:

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration … they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct.”

1833 – Noah Webster:

“The religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles … This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions and government … the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.”

1841 – Alexis de Tocqueville (Democracy in America):

“In the United States of America the sovereign authority is religious … there is no other country in the world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America.”

Summer 8, 1845 – President Andrew Jackson asserts:

“The Bible is the rock upon which our Republic rests.”

February 11, 1861 – Abraham Lincoln, farewell at Springfield, Illinois:

“Unless the great God who assisted (Washington) shall be with me and aid me, I must fail; but if the same Omniscient Mind and Mighty Arm that directed and protected him shall guide and support me, I shall not fail … Let us all pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now.”

Lincoln on the Bible:

“In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we would not know right from wrong. All things most desireable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.” (George L. Hunt, Calvinism and the Political Order, Westminster Press, 1965, p.33)

1884 – U.S. Supreme Court reiterates the Declaration’s reference to our rights as being God-given.

These inherent rights have never been more happily expressed than in the Declaration of Independence, “we hold these truths to be self-evident” that is, so plain that their truth is recognized upon their mere statement “that all men are endowed” – not by edicts of emperors, or by decrees of parliament, or acts of Congress, but “by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and to secure these” – not grant them but secure them “governments are instituted among men.”

1891 – The U.S. Supreme Court restates that America is a “Christian Nation.”

“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian … this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation … we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth … this is a Christian nation.” (Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 143 US 457, 36 L ed 226, Justice Brewer)

1909 – President Theodore Roosevelt:

“After a week on perplexing problems … it does so rest my soul to come into the house of The Lord and to sing and mean it, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty’ … (my) great joy and glory that in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of the Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world.” (Ferdinand C. Iglehart, Theodore Roosevelt – The Man As I knew Him, A.L. Burt, 1919)

1913 – President Woodrow Wilson:

“America was born to exemplify the devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the Holy Scriptures.”

1952 – US Supreme Court defines the “Separation of Church and State.”

“We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being … No Constitutional requirement makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against the efforts to widen the scope of religious influence. The government must remain neutral when it comes to competition between sects … The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every respect there shall be a separation of Church and State.”

January 20, 1977 – President Jimmy Carter:

“Here before me is the Bible used in the inauguration of our first President in 1789, and I have just taken the oath of office on the Bible my mother gave me just a few years ago, opened to the timeless admonition from the ancient prophet Micah: ‘He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God’” (Micah 6:2).

1980 – President Ronald Reagan:

“The time has come to turn to God and reassert our trust in Him for the Healing of America … our country is in need of and ready for a spiritual renewal.”

May 3, 1990 – President George Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer.

“The great faith that led our Nation’s Founding Fathers to pursue this bold experience in self-government has sustained us in uncertain and perilous times; it has given us strength to this very day. Like them, we do very well to recall our ‘firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,’ to give thanks for the freedom and prosperity this nation enjoys, and to pray for continued help and guidance from our wise and loving Creator.”

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 07:54 AM
Do you need more evidence.

Vizion
04-07-2010, 01:45 PM
There are "good" Muslims (and I mean that in that they take care of themselves)...but then then it seems that Muslims reknown for basketball and rap music are far more the exception that the rule.

BO acts as if Muslims have been part of the American continium since the dawn of its founding-or perhaps that is the LIE he wants the increasingly ignorant youth of America to believe.

Neezar
04-07-2010, 02:45 PM
With all respect nate, I think thats a stretch. I think you are speaking with a little anger in your heart here when you say that. No contributions you say???

Now that I have bored you all to death...Nate, come on man, this took me like 15 minutes and the wonder that is GOOGLE. Surely you can't say you did NOT know any of these contributions? I mean for someone who has such a profound knowledge of history. It sounds to me like your holding on to some major anger friend.

So basically it took you a bit to dig up a mere half a page to what muslims have contributed to our history and culture.

I think Nater's comment of the Muslim's devastation to our society and history is much more memorable than what has to be dug up by even the most knowledgable amongst us. :wink:


Okay so you have proven that they contributed half a page. Congratulations.

:laugh:

flo
04-07-2010, 04:28 PM
Just look at the last week's contributions...

3/29, Moscow, metro train bombing - 38 murdered, 72 injured.

4/02, Baghdad streets bombed - 25 murdered

4/04, Baghdad, 3 foreign missions bombed - 41 murdered

4/05, Peshawar, Pakistan - 2 bombings, US embassy and political rally in Dir - 63 murdered, 100+ injuries.

You see, that's the point. The Baptists and Buddhists aren't out killing people every month. I keep hearing pleas for the moderates to "take their religion back". I think it's too steeped in jihad for that to ever happen. I guess the press didn't cover the outrage and protests from CAIR and other "moderates" this last week.

The topic is BO's statement that Muslims have always been a part of America's "story", whatever that means. If he means our history and heritage, they aren't. Judeo-Christian principles are; even the more secular of the founding fathers agreed on this and warned that our democracy was in great peril if we ever turned our back on those principles.

He was just kow-towing to the Egyptians. I wish he could treat the leaders from Israel and Afghanistan with as much deference.

NateR
04-07-2010, 04:33 PM
With all respect nate, I think thats a stretch. I think you are speaking with a little anger in your heart here when you say that. No contributions you say???

1) Land Cultivation / Discovery / military:

The United States Cavalry hired a Muslim by the name of Hajj Ali to experiment with breeding and raising camels in the deserts of Arizona. Hajj Ali came from Syria in the mid 1850's, and in 1868 he went to work prospecting and scouting for the government. He was given the quaint, American nickname 'Hi Jolly' as he became a local folk hero in Quartzsite, AZ, where he died in 1902. His tombstone is a stone pyramid with a camel on top of it in 1935 --- http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=25398

Austin, Allan D. (1994) "Mohammed Ali Ben Said: Travels on Five Continents," Contributions in Black Studies: Vol. 12, Article 15.

"An African immigrant Muslim, Muhammad Ali Ben Said, joined the 55th Regiment of Massachusetts Colored Volunteers. Serving in Company 1, Muhammad rose from corporal to sergeant by July 16, 1863" --- has been called one of the first people to encourage blacks to willingly enlist in the armed forces (not to sure on that, but its a nice story).

2 ) Sports

Muhammad Ali, a boxer, is one of the most famous and world-recognized personalities of the twentieth century. Other Muslim boxers --Saad Muhammad, Eddie Mustafa, Dwight Braxton (Muhammad Qawi Ali), bernard hopkins etc.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar, a member of basketball Hall-of Fame, is one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Other famous Muslim basketball players are Jamal Wilkes, Walt Hazzard, Charlie Scott (Shaheed abdul Aleem), Spencer Haywood, Hakeem Olajuwoon (another hall of famer)

3) Civil rights movement:

Malcolm X, to his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans. He has been described as one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history. Martin Luther King jr, is quoted as saying "While we did not always see eye to eye on methods to solve the race problem, I always had a deep affection for Malcolm and felt that he had a great ability to put his finger on the existence and root of the problem. He was an eloquent spokesman for his point of view and no one can honestly doubt that Malcolm had a great concern for the problems that we face as a race"


4) Architecture and Engineering:

Fazlur Rahman Khan, was a Bangladeshi-American architect and structural engineer. He is a central figure behind the "Second Chicago School" of architecture He is also considered to be the "Einstein of structural engineering" and "the greatest structural engineer of the second half of the 20th century" for his innovative use of structural systems that remain fundamental to modern skyscraper construction. His most famous buildings are the John Hancock Center and the Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower), which was the world's tallest building for several decades.

-----Billington, David P. (1985), The Tower and the Bridge: The New Art of Structural Engineering, Princeton University Press, pp. 234–5, ISBN 069102393X


5) Science:

Ahmed Zewail is the Linus Pauling Chair Professor Chemistry and Professor of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. He is the 1999 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his work on femtochemistry. This has a HUGE impact on potential drug design, medicine or new energy sources.

Dr. Zewail is also expected to participate in President Barack Obama's Presidential Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST).


Dr. Elias Zerhouni was the 15th director of the National Institutes of Health, appointed by George W. Bush in May 2002. He has won several awards for his research including a Gold Medal from the American Roentgen Ray Society for CT research and two Paul Lauterbur Awards for MRI research. His research in imaging led to advances in Computed tomography (CAT scanning) and Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) that resulted in 157 peer reviewed publications and 8 patents.


There have been dozens of famous Muslims in Jazz music, arts, and other entertainment fields....go look it up for yourself.

1) akon
2) dave chappelle
3) Ice Cube
4) Busta rhymes

etc etc etc


---------------------------------------------


Now that I have bored you all to death...Nate, come on man, this took me like 15 minutes and the wonder that is GOOGLE. Surely you can't say you did NOT know any of these contributions? I mean for someone who has such a profound knowledge of history. It sounds to me like your holding on to some major anger friend.

So that's the best you could come up with? A couple of Muslims who helped out the military, rap artists, basketball players and a racist piece of filth like Malcolm X? Out of the entire 230+ year history of America and 15 minutes of searching the internet only provided that? That's pathetic.

My anger is not with the Muslims it's with the idiotic moral relativism of the Liberal Left who throws out words like "xenophopic" and "racist" and "hatemonger" whenever someone dares to show outrage over events like 9/11 or the Ft. Hood shootings. I don't care what Obama says, we are in a war on terrorism and those terrorists are Muslims. That fact cannot be denied.

flo
04-07-2010, 04:43 PM
Here is the exact wording and the "examples" he enumerates:

I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers - Thomas Jefferson - kept in his personal library.

OK
1) Morocco was the first nation to recognize the US (I will take his word for it)
2)John Adams said the US doesn't hate Muslim laws or religion
3)Some general blathering about enrichment

So I guess, technically, one could say there is a grain of truth in his ambiguous statement - although it's a stretch - kind of like Clinton talking about what the definition of is is.

I would not have mentioned that Muslims built our tallest building. But that's just me.

Vizion
04-07-2010, 04:50 PM
Nate, Neezar and Flo summarized what I was going to say perfectly :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Let's bring MORE Muslims over here!!:w00t:

flo
04-07-2010, 04:51 PM
My anger is not with the Muslims it's with the idiotic moral relativism of the Liberal Left who throws out words like "xenophopic" and "racist" and "hatemonger" whenever someone dares to show outrage over events like 9/11 or the Ft. Hood shootings.

Exactly.

flo
04-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Where is PTM? Haven't seen him lately...he needs to get in on this discussion!

mscomc
04-07-2010, 05:09 PM
So basically it took you a bit to dig up a mere half a page to what muslims have contributed to our history and culture.

I think Nater's comment of the Muslim's devastation to our society and history is much more memorable than what has to be dug up by even the most knowledgable amongst us. :wink:


Okay so you have proven that they contributed half a page. Congratulations.

:laugh:

Well first of all, some of them I already knew (in the science and engineering and medicine fields), and so what, I gave half a page. Nate is the one who said "I CANT THINK OF A SINGLE THING"

---- So I did more than enough. Plus, the muslim american community makes up like what, 1% of the population....ueah maybe it is a little harder to find other things. But if you want to know for yourself, GO LOOK.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 05:13 PM
It's hell that 1/2 of the 1% of the population is trying to kill the other 99%.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 05:16 PM
So that's the best you could come up with? A couple of Muslims who helped out the military, rap artists, basketball players and a racist piece of filth like Malcolm X? Out of the entire 230+ year history of America and 15 minutes of searching the internet only provided that? That's pathetic.

My anger is not with the Muslims it's with the idiotic moral relativism of the Liberal Left who throws out words like "xenophopic" and "racist" and "hatemonger" whenever someone dares to show outrage over events like 9/11 or the Ft. Hood shootings. I don't care what Obama says, we are in a war on terrorism and those terrorists are Muslims. That fact cannot be denied.

That's what they call me. A racist. I guess since I am a white American with the views I have towards cowards and people who harm my Country and all they can call me is racist.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 05:25 PM
So that's the best you could come up with? A couple of Muslims who helped out the military, rap artists, basketball players and a racist piece of filth like Malcolm X? Out of the entire 230+ year history of America and 15 minutes of searching the internet only provided that? That's pathetic.

.

Ok, I tried to look for some real famous, maybe I went about it the wrong way. Please Nate, tell me what YOU have contributed that is so great, and what you have done with YOUR life that is so awesome for america, and I will use that as the standard. If it is the military (which is good), I already listed traces of that going back to the 1850's, and last I heard on ABC news (dont know if you follow that), there are something like a total of 12,000 estimated muslim troops in the armed forces.

And why are you criticizing the fact I listed sports players and rap artists? are sports and music NOT part of the american culture? The culture you said muslims have contributed NOTHING to? Hmm, interesting, I just watched the NCAA tournament for basketball, and it seems thats its pretty entrenched in your culture, as is football, baseball etc. And your going to tell me that rap music (whether your like it or not) isnt part of the culture? so it does not play on the radio non-stop? you don't see traces of it in commercials, TV? Hmm, ok.

On to the science and engineering parts I told you about. Especially in architecture, your country (and mind, and the world for that matter) have benefited greatly. So I dont know what your beef is.

BamaGrits84
04-07-2010, 05:27 PM
Ok I read page 1 and then stopped because it's almost time for my lunch nap in my car. But I just wanted to make a few comments. 9/11 was tragic. I don't think anyone who is sensible argues with that. I'm 26 years old. It's the worst thing that's happened in my lifetime. if I live to be 100 it probably still will be. My 8 year old goes to a diverse magnet school and does have a few friends who are Muslims. I've never had a problem with the Muslim children being ugly to my son for being a Christian. Nor have their parents been anything other than kind. And no I don't think Muslims have done anything histroically to effect American history. TERRORIST have, but as a group Muslims have not. We've had crazy white men be homeland terrorsit but no one goes around looking at white men like they are scared to be in the same federal building with them. If they pay their share of taxes and don't live of the government their a step ahead of a lot of Americans so give them a break. I doubt the guy at the mall selling knock off purses is going to use those same purses to hide bombs in later.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 05:33 PM
That's right let your guard down and see what happens. This is crazy. I can't believe how many un American cowards we have in America.

BamaGrits84
04-07-2010, 05:35 PM
So that's the best you could come up with? A couple of Muslims who helped out the military, rap artists, basketball players and a racist piece of filth like Malcolm X? Out of the entire 230+ year history of America and 15 minutes of searching the internet only provided that? That's pathetic.

My anger is not with the Muslims it's with the idiotic moral relativism of the Liberal Left who throws out words like "xenophopic" and "racist" and "hatemonger" whenever someone dares to show outrage over events like 9/11 or the Ft. Hood shootings. I don't care what Obama says, we are in a war on terrorism and those terrorists are Muslims. That fact cannot be denied.

I do agree with this. Even though all Muslims are not terrorist, all terrorsit seem to be Muslims. And Obama acts like he is scared of the how everyone else views the US so he makes the us look like a pansy country. And sadly he is trying to disarm us now. So when he finishes P*ss-a-fying us, these terrorsit are going to go buck wild because we will have nothing left to defend ourselves with and 9/11 will look like a drive by compared to what will happen is we disarm and the terrorist hook up with a dictator.

BamaGrits84
04-07-2010, 05:39 PM
That's right let your guard down and see what happens. This is crazy. I can't believe how many un American cowards we have in America.

Cowards? Ha I call them something that's slang for the female reproductive area. you know what the problem is? These people didn't get their butt whooped good enough as kids and turned into (see above reference).

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 05:48 PM
So that's the best you could come up with? A couple of Muslims who helped out the military, rap artists, basketball players and a racist piece of filth like Malcolm X? Out of the entire 230+ year history of America and 15 minutes of searching the internet only provided that? That's pathetic.

My anger is not with the Muslims it's with the idiotic moral relativism of the Liberal Left who throws out words like "xenophopic" and "racist" and "hatemonger" whenever someone dares to show outrage over events like 9/11 or the Ft. Hood shootings. I don't care what Obama says, we are in a war on terrorism and those terrorists are Muslims. That fact cannot be denied.

I do agree with this. Even though all Muslims are not terrorist, all terrorsit seem to be Muslims. And Obama acts like he is scared of the how everyone else views the US so he makes the us look like a pansy country. And sadly he is trying to disarm us now. So when he finishes P*ss-a-fying us, these terrorsit are going to go buck wild because we will have nothing left to defend ourselves with and 9/11 will look like a drive by compared to what will happen is we disarm and the terrorist hook up with a dictator.

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama is our biggest threat as a terrorist. He is probable giving Al Queida information so they can win.

rearnakedchoke
04-07-2010, 05:53 PM
I think the Muslims are just the tip of the iceberg .. I think the Taoists and Shintos are also plotting ...

NateR
04-07-2010, 06:00 PM
I think the Muslims are just the tip of the iceberg .. I think the Taoists and Shintos are also plotting ...

Thousands of Americans are dead at the hands of Muslim terrorists over the last 20 years and you're cracking jokes and making light of it. Classy.

NateR
04-07-2010, 06:02 PM
Please Nate, tell me what YOU have contributed that is so great, and what you have done with YOUR life that is so awesome for america, and I will use that as the standard.

You're turning this into a personal attack now? You must really be out of ideas for trying to argue your point. :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
04-07-2010, 06:21 PM
Thousands of Americans are dead at the hands of Muslim terrorists over the last 20 years and you're cracking jokes and making light of it. Classy.

Thousands more Americans are killed each year by Americans and that has been happening since day one ... seems to me that you are not only at war with Muslims.

rearnakedchoke
04-07-2010, 06:24 PM
You're turning this into a personal attack now? You must really be out of ideas for trying to argue your point. :laugh:

"Simple-minded little Liberal fool"

Seems i read a personal attack in one of your first posts in this thread ... seems you can dish it, but can't take it ...

Vizion
04-07-2010, 06:31 PM
Thousands more Americans are killed each year by Americans and that has been happening since day one ... seems to me that you are not only at war with Muslims. What Nate is referring to is the Muslims contributions over the years. Clearly, MUSLIMS perpetuated the events of 9/11 on US soil.

Do you believe that there were American Muslims who weren't involved with 9/11, that, indeed celebrated the attack?

Vizion
04-07-2010, 06:34 PM
You're turning this into a personal attack now? You must really be out of ideas for trying to argue your point. :laugh: He's attempting to create a circular argument, attacking you, and not the issue...:Whistle:

rearnakedchoke
04-07-2010, 06:38 PM
What Nate is referring to is the Muslims contributions over the years. Clearly, MUSLIMS perpetuated the events of 9/11 on US soil.

Do you believe that there were American Muslims who weren't involved with 9/11, that, indeed celebrated the attack?

Of course i think there were American muslims that celebrated the attacks ... but i don't think all muslims share that sentiment ... but that is not what i am referring to ... this thread is about muslims contributions to american culture ... and some people only think the contribution muslims have made have been terror ... i don't agree ... my point was that more Americans have died at the hands of Americans than terrorists over the years .. so if you have a war against muslims, than you must have a bigger war at criminals in this country who kill other Americans ...

billwilliams70
04-07-2010, 06:50 PM
Cassius Clay

Originally known as Cassius Clay, Ali changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam in 1964, subsequently converting to Sunni Islam in 1975. In 1967, Ali refused to be inducted into the U.S. military based on his religious beliefs and opposition to the Vietnam War. He was arrested and found guilty on draft evasion charges, stripped of his boxing title, and his boxing license was suspended. He was not imprisoned, but did not fight again for nearly four years while his appeal worked its way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, where it was successful.

He was converted into a Muslim because his scared behind didn't want to defend our Country. How do we in our right mind call this man an American Hero is beyond me.
Were you ever in the military?

NateR
04-07-2010, 07:00 PM
"Simple-minded little Liberal fool"

Seems i read a personal attack in one of your first posts in this thread ... seems you can dish it, but can't take it ...

Who said I couldn't take it? I just find it funny that mscomc has run out of logical ways to argue his point, so he has to go after me personally.

NateR
04-07-2010, 07:05 PM
Thousands more Americans are killed each year by Americans and that has been happening since day one ... seems to me that you are not only at war with Muslims.

Your statement is a lie. Show me your statistical proof that thousands of Americans have been killed by other Americans every single year, dating back to 1776.

billwilliams70
04-07-2010, 07:06 PM
Ahmed Hassan Zewail (Arabic: أحمد حسن زويل‎) (born February 26, 1946 in Damanhour, Egypt) is an Egyptian-American scientist, and the winner of the 1999 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his work on femtochemistry. He is the Linus Pauling Chair Professor Chemistry and Professor of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. Dr. Zewail has been nominated and will participate in President Barack Obama's Presidential Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST). The council will talk about education, science, defense, energy, the economy, and technology.


After some post doctorate work at UC-Berkeley, he was awarded a faculty appointment at Caltech in 1976, where he has remained since. He became a naturalized citizen of the United States in 2010, and in 121605, he was made the first Linus Pauling Chair in Chemical Physics.
You are pretty thickheaded.

You first went off on the conversion to Islam/Muslim thing as if that has no bearing on the person they are NOW......then you bold that he became a naturalized citizen of the US in 2010. So, by your rationale, he's not really a naturalized citizen because he converted.

This thread gives me a headache.

Later.

billwilliams70
04-07-2010, 07:11 PM
Your statement is a lie. Show me your statistical proof that thousands of Americans have been killed by other Americans every single year, dating back to 1776.
Are you serious?

Timothy McVeigh was American.

Dr. Theodore John Kaczynski was an American.

J.B.
04-07-2010, 07:17 PM
Who said I couldn't take it? I just find it funny that mscomc has run out of logical ways to argue his point, so he has to go after me personally.

I agree with you about most of what you say. I think a lot of left-wingers go out of their way to ignore the issue of the negative effects Muslims have had on our society when trying to paint conservatives as hate-mongers.

HOWEVER, I don't really think we should be bickering over good accomplishments, regardless of what religion the person who did the deed happens to follow.

For instance, YES, Muhammad Ali was a draft dodger and he said some VERY racist things that caused a LOT of controversy during the time, but he HAS also done some good things inside and outside of the ring. Is he a legend of the SPORT of Boxing? YES, he most certainly is. Does that mean he is an "American Hero"? To some, maybe. To me personally, that answer is no. I have a ton of respect for what Ali did and accomplished as a fighter, but I was never a huge personal fan of his simply because of the disdain he showed for America at the time. The same goes for all the other athletes and entertainers that were mentioned. Some of them did some great things, but none of them are perfect people.

No, a few musicians and athletes won't make up for the all the radicals who have killed Americans, but we should at least be able to acknowledge that not ALL of them that are here are in fact "the enemy". Does that mean we let our guard down? Absolutely not.

I hope I'm not off "the list"....:sad: :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
04-07-2010, 07:19 PM
Your statement is a lie. Show me your statistical proof that thousands of Americans have been killed by other Americans every single year, dating back to 1776.

it's probably not accurate if you go back to 1776 ... but if go based on the murder rate in the US has bounced around from 5-10/100,000 over that last 50 years or so, than a murder rate of even 5 in 1776 would put you at a few hundred murders a year based on a pop of around 2.5 mill .. so it's still a lot of people ... still since day one, it doesn't seem that murders occuring from terrorist acts has been the bulk of the killings in the US ...

NateR
04-07-2010, 07:22 PM
it's probably not accurate if you go back to 1776 ... but if go based on the murder rate in the US has bounced around from 5-10/100,000 over that last 50 years or so, than a murder rate of even 5 in 1776 would put you at a few hundred murders a year based on a pop of around 2.5 mill .. so it's still a lot of people ... still since day one, it doesn't seem that murders occuring from terrorist acts has been the bulk of the killings in the US ...

What's the murder rate in Canada?

rearnakedchoke
04-07-2010, 07:23 PM
What's the murder rate in Canada?

around 2 or lower i believe ...

Rev
04-07-2010, 07:25 PM
Ok, you say that Americans are at war with more than just muslims because we have Americans killing Americans. Fine, why dont we take it out of the box and bring it out into the open and call it what it really is.

Do people kill other people here in America? yes
is it justified? Not usually
What causes it? sin(like it or not)
Who brought sin and presented it before man?
Satan

There is only one true God and that is the creator.
the god of the muslims calls for the death of the infadells and teaches hate.(I have read alot of the koran and know ALOT of former muslims)
So if they are obviously not following the God of heaven, then who are they following? The same one who first presented man with sin.

So label it what you want. But we are all serving someone and if it aint God than we only have one other choice.

My point being that America IS in fact at war with more than just muslims, we are at war with evil inside and out. Islam is just one of the faces of the many types of evil. I dont hate those people, i hate what they are doing and what they stand for and believe. I would love it if they all found Christ.

Last thing, Buzzard, you think that you are winning arguements in here? You are just proving us right. Everything you said about me in your reply was exactly what I knew you would say. You are all the same, and I pray for you. I bet it eats you alive that you cant shake our faith. It's ok, I know that you will deny it, but we both know the truth.

Now come back with a cute long winded post about how ignorant and uneducated I am, tell us about how you think you stand for America and whatever. Tell us about how we are all full of hate and all of that, heck you might even put me on the suck up list for being a believer(yay), but no matter what I am still going to pray for you to accept Christ into you heart.
I know that some are going to cry about this being in the politics section when it should be in the religion section, but, every part of my life revolves around my relationship with God, including my politics.
(cant wait for you to question my stance because of my earlier post)

billwilliams70
04-07-2010, 07:27 PM
To clarify my stance on this......I am outraged at the attacks of 9/11 and the shootings at Fort Lewis. I understand that Muslims were behind those attacks.

I also understand that Timothy McVeigh was Irish Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there have been any significant contributions made by Irish Catholics in America.

I think the initial statement by NateR was broad and one of hatred. Substitute the race mentioned in your comment for a color and that post could very easily find itself on any one of the many white supremacist forums that are on the web.

I don't even know what the "list" is.

Later.

rearnakedchoke
04-07-2010, 07:30 PM
I agree with you about most of what you say. I think a lot of left-wingers go out of their way to ignore the issue of the negative effects Muslims have had on our society when trying to paint conservatives as hate-mongers.

HOWEVER, I don't really think we should be bickering over good accomplishments, regardless of what religion the person who did the deed happens to follow.

For instance, YES, Muhammad Ali was a draft dodger and he said some VERY racist things that caused a LOT of controversy during the time, but he HAS also done some good things inside and outside of the ring. Is he a legend of the SPORT of Boxing? YES, he most certainly is. Does that mean he is an "American Hero"? To some, maybe. To me personally, that answer is no. I have a ton of respect for what Ali did and accomplished as a fighter, but I was never a huge personal fan of his simply because of the disdain he showed for America at the time. The same goes for all the other athletes and entertainers that were mentioned. Some of them did some great things, but none of them are perfect people.

No, a few musicians and athletes won't make up for the all the radicals who have killed Americans, but we should at least be able to acknowledge that not ALL of them that are here are in fact "the enemy". Does that mean we let our guard down? Absolutely not.

I hope I'm not off "the list"....:sad: :laugh:

dude, this just got you bounced from the list .... you are gonna have to stop making these types of posts if you want to work your way back on ...

NateR
04-07-2010, 07:43 PM
I also understand that Timothy McVeigh was Irish Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there have been any significant contributions made by Irish Catholics in America.

There is evidence that Timothy McVeigh had ties to Osama bin Laden, so the Oklahoma City bombing falls into the category of Muslim terrorism.

I think the initial statement by NateR was broad and one of hatred. Substitute the race mentioned in your comment for a color and that post could very easily find itself on any one of the many white supremacist forums that are on the web.

:laugh: I didn't know that Muslim was a race. :rolleyes:

billwilliams70
04-07-2010, 07:51 PM
There is evidence that Timothy McVeigh had ties to Osama bin Laden, so the Oklahoma City bombing falls into the category of Muslim terrorism.
:laugh: I didn't know that Muslim was a race. :rolleyes:
:frantics: Conspiracy theory. :frantics:

Where did you find that evidence Nate? I'm curious. What record shows that McVeigh had ties to bin Laden?

Freudian slip.....simple mistake.

Later.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 08:13 PM
Who said I couldn't take it? I just find it funny that mscomc has run out of logical ways to argue his point, so he has to go after me personally.

:laugh:

Oh save it. I was not attacking you, if you can read, the point I was making is that: since the 5 categories I listed were as you said "pathetic", then surely you can tell me what is good, seeing is how you are Mr. America. And as a good american, you seem to act like you are, surely you can gibe me examples of your contributions that made america so great. When you give me those examples, I will then go look for muslim americans who have done the same thing. Therefore, you will all be the same in your contributions.

But, if you are suggesting you can not think of anything you have contributed to america, then how does that make you any different than the american muslims I listed who have not contributed anything? hmmmm, ok.

You see nate, I have not run out of example and logic. You have. All you do is pick one tiny little piece of what someone types and go "thats pathetic", or my personal favourite, "you clearly have no idea what you are talking about"....gimme a break.

You are just mad, that you couldnt think of a SINGLE thing that muslims gave to america, and I alone listed like 20 people, and you are giving me heck because I did not list enough?

What do you want me to do, list 10 pages? I think since muslims only make up about 1% of the U.S population, I think the amount of people I listed was sufficient to prove my point.

NateR
04-07-2010, 08:14 PM
:frantics: Conspiracy theory. :frantics:

Where did you find that evidence Nate? I'm curious. What record shows that McVeigh had ties to bin Laden?

Freudian slip.....simple mistake.

Later.

I've heard it from many sources, but here is a transcript from an episode of The O'Reilly Factor from March 2001:

FOX NEWS NETWORK
THE O'REILLY FACTOR (20:20 ET)
March 20, 2001, Tuesday
Transcript # 032002cb.256

HEADLINE: Was Osama Bin Laden Involved in the Oklahoma City
Bombing?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM
AND MAY BE UPDATED.

O'REILLY: Tonight, shocking testimony at the pretrial hearing of
Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols, who has been convicted in a
federal court and now is facing state proceedings.

Investigative reporter Jayna Davis, who worked for the NBC
affiliate in Oklahoma City, uncovered evidence that Nichols had
ties to the terrorist Osama bin Laden before the bombing that
killed 168 people. Timothy McVeigh has also been convicted in the
case and will be put to death on May 16th. And Ms. Davis says
there were other people involved beside him and Nichols. But when
she took her information to the FBI, she says, well, here's what
she told me.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'REILLY: Jayna, it seems the Department of Justice all along
wanted to make the Oklahoma City bombing and investigation simply
a domestic terrorist incident. But your information is different.
Tell us about it.

JAYNA DAVIS, FORMER KFOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, back in
spring of 1995, I was working for the NBC affiliate in Oklahoma
City and I was assigned to look into people responsible for the
bombing. And what we discovered, an intelligence source at one of
the highest levels in the federal government later confirmed, was
a Middle Eastern terrorist cell living and operating in the heart
of Oklahoma City just a few miles from the Alfred P. Murrah
Building. And through the course of our investigation, we located
several witnesses that we deemed very credible at the station and
they testified and told us that they identified an Iraqi
national, a former member of Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard
through his own admission later, as being in the company with
Timothy McVeigh the day of the bombing, prior to the bombing in
Oklahoma City, in the Ryder truck, in the passenger seat of the
Ryder truck, stepping out of the truck in front of the Murrah
Building just moments before the blast and speeding away from
downtown in a brown Chevrolet pickup that was identified by the
FBI as a possible getaway vehicle and an official all points
bulletin that was identified the day of the bombing.

O'REILLY: All right, let me stop you then. But the Justice
Department has never caught anybody there, never brought anybody
in or told the press that there was this man, correct?

DAVIS: Yes, that is correct. From what has been publicly stated,
they said that they did not believe that there was a foreign
connection to the bombing.

O'REILLY: Right, now, you do believe there is?

DAVIS: Yes, I do.

O'REILLY: Do you have any other evidence?

DAVIS: Yes. We have 24 sworn witness affidavits that ties seven
to eight Arab men to various stages of the bombing plot from the
beginning all the way to the day in which the plot was executed.
I have several police records, court records, public court
documents that I've amassed, hundreds of documents. I've spoken
to law enforcement officials. I've spoken to intelligence
experts, terrorism experts, all who confirm various aspects, the
most crucial aspects of the witness testimonies.

O'REILLY: Who is behind, then, the bombing, in your opinion? Not
McVeigh and Nichols?

DAVIS: Yes. The evidence that we have gathered definitely
incriminates McVeigh and Nichols. Let me make that clear. They
were in it up to their eyeballs, according to the evidence we
were able to look into. However, it really is a foreign
conspiracy masterminded and funded by Osama bin Laden, according
to my intelligence sources.

O'REILLY: Do you have any other information other than, you know,
anonymous sources to back up that bin Laden was behind McVeigh
and Nichols doing this?

DAVIS: I have what has been published on the court record the
writ of mandamus that was filed just prior to McVeigh's trial by
his defense team, that a witness in the Philippines, a member of
Abu Sayyef (ph), a terrorist group that has been identified as
being funded by Osama bin Laden, identified Terry Nichols in the
presence of Ramzi Yousef, the convicted mastermind of the World
Trade Center bombing, and several of his coconspirators in that
bombing, and that they were discussing bombing activities prior
to the Oklahoma City bombing. That is on the court record.

O'REILLY: Do we know that Terry Nichols was, indeed, in the
Philippines?

DAVIS: Yes, he was. He had a mail-order bride. And I did an
undercover hidden camera interview with his ex-wife, Lana Padia
(ph), in which she admitted to me ver openly that she felt as if
his travels to and from the Philippines, his cover story was
having a mail-order bride. But he would go down there by himself
on many occasions without his bride.

O'REILLY: So now let me recap. You found out that there was a
Republican Guard from Iraq accompanying Nichols and McVeigh on
the day of the bombing. You found out that Nichols met with
terrorists in the Philippines, terrorists associated with Osama
bin Laden, and you found out that the conspiracy was funded by
bin Laden. You took this information to the FBI, you told me.
What happened?

DAVIS: Well, what happened was they turned me away and refused to
take it.

O'REILLY: Really?

DAVIS: Yes. I even took a notary with me and an affidavit and
asked the FBI to sign that statement to confirm I tried to turn
this information over, because I had had problems in the past.
And the agent looked it over and he said fine, we don't have a
problem acknowledging you're turning over this information. Let
me check with our legal department. He comes back about 20
minutes later and he says I'm sorry, the legal department has to
call the U.S. attorney's office in Denver that's now handling the
bombing case in the trial of Timothy McVeigh -- I mean, I'm
sorry, Terry Nichols. It was in September of 1997 and it was just
prior to...

O'REILLY: All right, so let me stop you. You tried to give
information to the FBI in Oklahoma City?

DAVIS: Yes, I did.

O'REILLY: All right, they said I've got to call my superiors in
Denver. They came back 20 minutes later, we're not going to take
this information from you, which is very unusual, is it not?

DAVIS: Well, I was flabbergasted. I couldn't even speculate why
they wouldn't take this information. They had hundreds of agents
on this case. They had millions of dollars of property damage.
They had 171 victims. Why wouldn't they want to take information
from a reporter who had sworn witness statements implicating
others unknown in the Oklahoma City bombing? I can't even
speculate to what would be their motive. It was absurd. They
outrightly refused to take the information and that information
implicated a Middle Eastern terrorist cell funded by Osama bin
Laden as assisting Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols in executing
the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Building. Their reasons,
their motivations, that's a question for the Department of
Justice and the former attorney general.

O'REILLY: All right, Ms. Davis, thank you very much. Of course,
the former attorney general is Janet Reno. Ms. Davis did testify.
We called the FBI and they refused to comment, as usual.

Plenty more ahead as THE FACTOR moves along this evening.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 08:31 PM
I agree with you about most of what you say. I think a lot of left-wingers go out of their way to ignore the issue of the negative effects Muslims have had on our society when trying to paint conservatives as hate-mongers.

HOWEVER, I don't really think we should be bickering over good accomplishments, regardless of what religion the person who did the deed happens to follow.

For instance, YES, Muhammad Ali was a draft dodger and he said some VERY racist things that caused a LOT of controversy during the time, but he HAS also done some good things inside and outside of the ring. Is he a legend of the SPORT of Boxing? YES, he most certainly is. Does that mean he is an "American Hero"? To some, maybe. To me personally, that answer is no. I have a ton of respect for what Ali did and accomplished as a fighter, but I was never a huge personal fan of his simply because of the disdain he showed for America at the time. The same goes for all the other athletes and entertainers that were mentioned. Some of them did some great things, but none of them are perfect people.

No, a few musicians and athletes won't make up for the all the radicals who have killed Americans, but we should at least be able to acknowledge that not ALL of them that are here are in fact "the enemy". Does that mean we let our guard down? Absolutely not.

I hope I'm not off "the list"....:sad: :laugh:

I dont know if you are talking about my list...if you are not, Sorry :)

If you are though, I did not just list musicians and athletes. I listed military, original land cultivators, engineers, civil rights, scientists and medical doctors.

bradwright
04-07-2010, 08:44 PM
I dont know if you are talking about my list...if you are not, Sorry :)

If you are though, I did not just list musicians and athletes. I listed military, original land cultivators, engineers, civil rights, scientists and medical doctors.

although i may be wrong i think he is talking about Buzzards list.
dont worry though mscomc....i'm pretty sure your not on it.:wink:

J.B.
04-07-2010, 08:54 PM
I dont know if you are talking about my list...if you are not, Sorry :)

If you are though, I did not just list musicians and athletes. I listed military, original land cultivators, engineers, civil rights, scientists and medical doctors.


Actually I am talking about Buzzard's now-famous yet non-existent list of people who just suck up to Nate around here. :laugh:

I know you listed more than that, I was just using those as an example because it's easy to see why people would not always see athletes or entertainers as "heroes".

flo
04-07-2010, 09:07 PM
I think the Muslims are just the tip of the iceberg .. I think the Taoists and Shintos are also plotting ...
ROFLMAO!!!! :laugh::laugh:

flo
04-07-2010, 09:15 PM
my point was that more Americans have died at the hands of Americans than terrorists over the years .. so if you have a war against muslims, than you must have a bigger war at criminals in this country who kill other Americans ...

Well, we are talking about murderous religious fanatics, not street criminals. Most murders that you refer to are done by people who know the victim and have a motive (greed, jealousy, drugs, gangs, etc).

The islamo-fascists are the only ones I know of who are going out murdering people indiscriminately (including fellow-Muslims of other sects!!) on a weekly basis.

What you said is like equating the new KFC sandwich (which will undoubtedly contribute to heart attacks) to terrorists. Please.

flo
04-07-2010, 09:20 PM
Actually, this thread is giving me a headache too, so I'll stop.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 09:26 PM
Were you ever in the military?

Actually I tried to join the Military but got into trouble at a young age in Life. If I knew they would take me tomorrow I would.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 09:37 PM
You are pretty thickheaded.

You first went off on the conversion to Islam/Muslim thing as if that has no bearing on the person they are NOW......then you bold that he became a naturalized citizen of the US in 2010. So, by your rationale, he's not really a naturalized citizen because he converted.

This thread gives me a headache.

Later.

actually I took the original question the wrong way. I thought they were talking about American Born Muslims. You know. The ones born a muslim.

You say I am thick headed. I believe I have to be. Mr Williams I respect you and your post but I am tired of being insulted instead of being debated. The only one on here that actually debates with me is mcs. That I respect him for. Do I agree with him. Heck no. But do I respect him. Of Course. All I have ever wanted to do was to let people know who we are at war with. Then people come on here and say Americans are killing more Americans. Crazy. Just Crazy.
Americans are killing Americans everyday which is true but not on a terrorist type of level. Think about the sniper in D.C for a moment. He killed innocent Americans. What about the 3000 people who died on 9-11.

Please read this list this time Please?


The initial numbers are indelible: 8:46 a.m. and 9:02 a.m. Time the burning towers stood: 56 minutes and 102 minutes. Time they took to fall: 12 seconds. From there, they ripple out.

Total number killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819
Number of firefighters and paramedics killed: 343
Number of NYPD officers: 23
Number of Port Authority police officers: 37
Number of WTC companies that lost people: 60
Number of employees who died in Tower One: 1,402
Number of employees who died in Tower Two: 614
Number of employees lost at Cantor Fitzgerald: 658
Number of U.S. troops killed in Operation Enduring Freedom: 22
Number of nations whose citizens were killed in attacks: 115
Ratio of men to women who died: 3:1
Age of the greatest number who died: between 35 and 39
Bodies found "intact": 289
Body parts found: 19,858
Number of families who got no remains: 1,717
Estimated units of blood donated to the New York Blood Center: 36,000
Total units of donated blood actually used: 258
Number of people who lost a spouse or partner in the attacks: 1,609
Estimated number of children who lost a parent: 3,051
Percentage of Americans who knew someone hurt or killed in the attacks: 20
FDNY retirements, January–July 2001: 274
FDNY retirements, January–July 2002: 661
Number of firefighters on leave for respiratory problems by January 2002: 300
Number of funerals attended by Rudy Giuliani in 2001: 200
Number of FDNY vehicles destroyed: 98
Tons of debris removed from site: 1,506,124
Days fires continued to burn after the attack: 99
Jobs lost in New York owing to the attacks: 146,100
Days the New York Stock Exchange was closed: 6
Point drop in the Dow Jones industrial average when the NYSE reopened: 684.81
Days after 9/11 that the U.S. began bombing Afghanistan: 26
Total number of hate crimes reported to the Council on American-Islamic Relations nationwide since 9/11: 1,714
Economic loss to New York in month following the attacks: $105 billion
Estimated cost of cleanup: $600 million
Total FEMA money spent on the emergency: $970 million
Estimated amount donated to 9/11 charities: $1.4 billion
Estimated amount of insurance paid worldwide related to 9/11: $40.2 billion
Estimated amount of money needed to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $7.5 billion
Amount of money recently granted by U.S. government to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $4.55 billion
Estimated amount of money raised for funds dedicated to NYPD and FDNY families: $500 million
Percentage of total charity money raised going to FDNY and NYPD families: 25
Average benefit already received by each FDNY and NYPD widow: $1 million
Percentage increase in law-school applications from 2001 to 2002: 17.9
Percentage increase in Peace Corps applications from 2001 to 2002: 40
Percentage increase in CIA applications from 2001 to 2002: 50
Number of songs Clear Channel Radio considered "inappropriate" to play after 9/11: 150
Number of mentions of 9/11 at the Oscars: 26
Apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup: 30,000
Number of apartments whose residents have requested cleanup and testing: 4,110
Number of Americans who changed their 2001 holiday-travel plans from plane to train or car: 1.4 million
Estimated number of New Yorkers suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder as a result of 9/11: 422,000

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 09:39 PM
American Christians didn't do this. Neither did the Catholics or the Jews or the Jehovah Witnesses. The Muslims did. Then on top of it all Our Country had to vote a Muslim in for President.

bradwright
04-07-2010, 09:50 PM
American Christians didn't do this. Neither did the Catholics or the Jews or the Jehovah Witnesses. The Muslims did. Then on top of it all Our Country had to vote a Muslim in for President.

i think the point some are trying to make here Donald is that not all Muslims are terrorists and to say they are is just not something that would be based on any sort of rational thought.

flo
04-07-2010, 09:51 PM
OK, just one last comment.

Donald, he isn't a Muslim.



There is no doubt in my mind that Obama is our biggest threat as a terrorist. He is probable giving Al Queida information so they can win.

How can you say that? That is just awful, that's like the looney left who called GWB "Hitler".

You lose most people to your point of view when you make some outrageous statement like that. It also gives the left ammo to smear the rest of us who are conservatives.

Not to mention, it's just wrong.

J.B.
04-07-2010, 10:11 PM
OK, just one last comment.

Donald, he isn't a Muslim.



How can you say that? That is just awful, that's like the looney left who called GWB "Hitler".

You lose most people to your point of view when you make some outrageous statement like that. It also gives the left ammo to smear the rest of us who are conservatives.

Not to mention, it's just wrong.


I tried telling him that some time ago :laugh:

flo
04-07-2010, 10:35 PM
Yeah, I saw that you tried, JB. This is such an emotional topic. It's tough for me to look at things objectively. I think I'll go find something fun to post in the Woodshed tonight..

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 10:35 PM
The only Muslim contribution to American history has been one of murder, terror and barbarism. I can't think of a single positive contribution by Muslims to American culture.

outside of Art and Architecture..."murder, Terror and barbarism" is pretty much their only contribution to WORLD History let alone American History.

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 10:44 PM
I have been called a racist time and time again for talking about the Muslims. Buzzard will say things like their is good Muslims out there. I call B.S. Prove it. Show me one good thing a Muslim has done good in our Country. I am not going to fall into their trap by them saying they are another form of the religion so they can take our Country down. It is people like Buzz that make this Country look bad. He has his own way of thinking that's for sure. You ask Nate or anyone not to have Hatred towards Muslims. There is 3,000 reason why I can't stand them. That's about how many Americans died that day. For what reason. Then I hear two people on here tell me that they (the Muslims) may have had a right and we the Americans were at fault. I will tell you what. Do not ever come on this site again and say the Americans were at fault for any reason because you can't provide any proof and even if you did provide proof I love this country and will honor this Country until my dieing day. This is a site I found with some good information.
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm

I personally can't see why you would even try to defend them. Please explain why? Please don't give me this bull $hit excuse saying that they are more American than I am and they they have rights. The heck with them and their rights. The only rights they should have is the right to move out this Country.

Keep calling me a racist because I know my God knows better. I was always told you were not supposed to hate people but if you Hate my God and My Country then I guess the feeling is mutual.
I would vote to ban him any day.

this isnt about Good or Bad Muslims.

This is about Islams contribution to Culture...specifically American Culture...there is none. The only thing they have contributed in the best part of 600 years is a few Terrorist Attacks in the last decade...

As far as the World is concerned, I will grant them that they do have an impresive style of art, and architecture...but substantial as that is...its distroyed the more beautiful art and architecture that was before it.

Other then that there were of course the Crusades and Invasions that Islam made on North Africa, the Middle East, India, Asia, and Europe...those were significant but not in a positive way for anyone involved.

So we arent talking about Moderate Muslims, of which there are many, nor are we talking about evil Muslims, of which their is an ever growing minority...we are talking about the influence of a faith on culture...particularly American....Your President seems to think their is one...I'm not sure I follow his power of deduction though :laugh:

To me its proof...he's nothing more then words...at the moment they are flattered...just like the American people were when the voted him in...but sooner or later, they too will come to realize his words mean nothing...then they will accuse him of treating them like idiots, and thinking that they are stupid enough to believe unfounded flattery.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 10:48 PM
This isnt really targeted to anyone else, but since Nate and Neezar made fun of my list, here are a few more.....I mean seriously. I am trying to list famous muslim americans and their contributions. So for a community of only about 5 million in a country of 300 million, I think I have listed a fair and proportionate number of people.

Keith Ellison (politician)

Keith Maurice Ellison is an American lawyer, politician, and a Democrat. He became the first Muslim to be elected to the United States Congress when he won the open seat for Minnesota's 5th congressional district, which centers on Minneapolis, in the House of Representatives in 2006. He is also the first African American elected to the House from Minnesota.

André Carson

André D. Carson (born October 16, 1974) is the United States Representative for Indiana's 7th congressional district and the grandson of his predecessor, former U.S. Representative Julia Carson. Carson got his professional start as a law enforcement officer, serving as an investigator for the Indiana State Police for nine years.


Siraj Wahhaj

A prominent community activist. In 1988 he led his community in an anti-drug patrol in which they staked out drug houses in Bedford-Stuyvesant in the cold of winter for 40 days and nights, forcing the closure of 15 drug houses. This effort received high praise from the New York City Police Department and the media.

Zalmay Khalilzad

He was the United States Ambassador to the United Nations under President George W. Bush. He has been involved with U.S. policy makers at the White House since the early 1980s, and was the highest-ranking Muslim American in the Administration of U.S. President George W. Bush. Khalilzad's previous assignments in the Administration include U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq.

Fareed Zakaria

Indian-American journalist and author. He is the host of CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS, and a frequent commentator and author about issues related to international relations, trade and American foreign policy.


Lewis Arquette
was an American film actor, writer and producer. Arquette was known for playing "J.D. Pickett" on the TV series, The Waltons, where he worked from 1978–1981.

Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan ****you are going to say this guy didnt give anything?
was a Muslim-American U.S. Army Specialist who died in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart for his service. He is buried in Arlington National Cemetery with full military honors.

Robert D. Crane
former adviser to the late President of the United States Richard Nixon, and is former Deputy Director (for Planning) of the United States National Security Council.[2] He has authored or co-authored more than a dozen books[3] and over 50 professional articles on comparative legal systems, global strategy, and information management.

James Yee
An American former United States Army chaplain with the rank of captain. In his appointed role as chaplain, Yee ministered to Muslim detainees held at Guantánamo Bay detention camp and received commendation from his superiors for his work.

Dr. Mehmet Oz

A Turkish-American cardiothoracic surgeon and author. He has made frequent appearances on The Oprah Winfrey Show, as well as appearances on Larry King Live, CNN, and other networks. In 2009, he launched The Dr. Oz Show.

I think you guys get the point, so Ill just pad it out with some more sports stars. But according to nate, these guys dont really matter. Funny, I guess all those sports bars in the U.S are there for nothing? So these guys could not have possibly contributed to america. And all those concerts and merchandise there music artists sell....that couldnt possibly have had an effect. Okie Dokie.
-------------------
Laila Ali - Daughter of Muhammad Ali, Former 2 time Female Super Middleweight Champion.

Eddie Mustafa Muhammad - Former Light Heavyweight Champion

Hasim Rahman - Former Heavyweight champion [72]

Dwight Muhammad Qawi - Former Light Heavyweight and Cruiserweight Champion.

Matthew Saad Muhammad - Former Light Heavyweight Champion.


Shaquille O'Neal - Player for the Phoenix Suns, also a rapper and actor

Rasheed Wallace - Center/power forward of the Detroit Pistons

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf - Former player for Denver Nuggets

Hamza Abdullah - Safety player for the Cleveland Browns

Husain Abdullah - Safety player for the Minnesota Vikings

Ahmad Brooks - Linebacker player for the San Francisco 49ers

Ahmad Rashād - Former player for Minnesota Vikings, award winning sports-caster (converted in 1972)

And in a bit of a joke, for all you WWE fans... Khosrow Vaziri (The Iron Sheik):laugh:

mscomc
04-07-2010, 10:49 PM
this isnt about Good or Bad Muslims.

This is about Islams contribution to Culture...specifically American Culture...there is none. The only thing they have contributed in the best part of 600 years is a few Terrorist Attacks in the last decade...

As far as the World is concerned, I will grant them that they do have an impresive style of art, and architecture...but substantial as that is...its distroyed the more beautiful art and architecture that was before it.

Other then that there were of course the Crusades and Invasions that Islam made on North Africa, the Middle East, India, Asia, and Europe...those were significant but not in a positive way for anyone involved.

So we arent talking about Moderate Muslims, of which there are many, nor are we talking about evil Muslims, of which their is an ever growing minority...we are talking about the influence of a faith on culture...particularly American....Your President seems to think their is one...I'm not sure I follow his power of deduction though :laugh:

To me its proof...he's nothing more then words...at the moment they are flattered...just like the American people were when the voted him in...but sooner or later, they too will come to realize his words mean nothing...then they will accuse him of treating them like idiots, and thinking that they are stupid enough to believe unfounded flattery.

So you didnt like my first list on page 2 of this thread either eh? oh well.

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 10:51 PM
Burning the witches at the stake were sure some nice, fine, strong Christian morals.:rolleyes:

Again, we are not a Christian nation. If we are, please show me where in our CONUS or DoI it states that.

you've been shown proof before. Your only here to argue...at least Donald is actually working through things...struggling, but working them through...you just stir.

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 10:53 PM
So you didnt like my first list on page 2 of this thread either eh? oh well.

You mentioned a few names i'd never heard of, in obscure categories of industry and on an individual level.

None of them are massive, well known, can-not-do-without Contributions from a FAITH.

Your one liners with Donald were a fun read though :wink:

J.B.
04-07-2010, 10:55 PM
Just to clarify...

Shaq does NOT play for the Suns. :Whistle:

and his rapping and acting skill have hardly contributed anything positive to society....

Need I remind those of you old enough to remember Super-Nintendo of the unholy abomination entitled "Shaq-Fu"?

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/kepala_nanas/Shaq-Fu.jpg

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 10:55 PM
Buzzard what does it say atop the Washington Monument?

Laus deo which means praise be to God.

:huh: are you sure?

I couldnt find any inscription on the Washington when I took photographs of it...the top is a point, its an obalisk.

But there are many inscriptions on all the others, not least moses above the Supreme Court....obviously that shows nothing to do with Christian Law :laugh:

mscomc
04-07-2010, 11:07 PM
outside of Art and Architecture..."murder, Terror and barbarism" is pretty much their only contribution to WORLD History let alone American History.

Art and architecture????


You must not have thought about that. Some of the first advances in: anatomy, trig (math), astronomy, water purification, medicine, drugs, surgeries and other fields came from middle eastern scholars.

Ill give you another list:

Ibn al-Haytham - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham
- his "book of optics" has been ranked along with Isaac Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica.


Jābir ibn Hayyān http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81bir_ibn_Hayy%C4%81n
---- Considered to be the father of modern chemistry. Derewenda, Zygmunt S. (2007), "On wine, chirality and crystallography", Acta Crystallographica A 64: 246–258 [247],


Al-Kindi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi

--- laid the foundation for modern geo-physics and earth science.


Avicenna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

---- his book the Cannon of medicine, was used as a text-book in the universities of Montpellier and Louvain as late as 1650. The principles of medicine described by the Canon ten centuries ago are still taught at UCLA and Yale University, among others, as part of the history of medicine.


Ibn Zuhr --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Zuhr

He is considered the father of experimental surgery, for introducing the experimental method into surgery, introducing the methods of human dissection and autopsy, inventing the surgical procedure of tracheotomy, performing the first parenteral nutrition of humans with a silver needle, discovering the cause of scabies and inflammation, discovering the existence of parasites, and refuting the theory of four humours.


The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Compendious_Book_on_Calculation_by_Completion_ and_Balancing

---- Is the fundamentals of algebra and equation forming.




There are hundreds and hundreds of more examples. I mean seriously Dave, you cant be this thick. You call yourself and educated man?

mscomc
04-07-2010, 11:08 PM
You mentioned a few names i'd never heard of, in obscure categories of industry and on an individual level.

None of them are massive, well known, can-not-do-without Contributions from a FAITH.

Your one liners with Donald were a fun read though :wink:


So now their contributions are nothing. Oh please. And and I knew several of them. So just because you dont know them, they are not well known, hmmm , ok. Get out of your flat more often.

mscomc
04-07-2010, 11:10 PM
Just to clarify...

Shaq does NOT play for the Suns. :Whistle:

and his rapping and acting skill have hardly contributed anything positive to society....

Need I remind those of you old enough to remember Super-Nintendo of the unholy abomination entitled "Shaq-Fu"?

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/kepala_nanas/Shaq-Fu.jpg

oooo come on, SHAQ-FU. How can you not like that. Ok fine, your right it sucks, my bad.

And and sorry about the "playing for the suns".....my apologies friend.:wink:

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 11:16 PM
Art and architecture????


You must not have thought about that. Some of the first advances in: anatomy, trig (math), astronomy, water purification, medicine, drugs, surgeries and other fields came from middle eastern scholars.

Ill give you another list:

Ibn al-Haytham - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham
- his "book of optics" has been ranked along with Isaac Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica.


Jābir ibn Hayyān http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81bir_ibn_Hayy%C4%81n
---- Considered to be the father of modern chemistry. Derewenda, Zygmunt S. (2007), "On wine, chirality and crystallography", Acta Crystallographica A 64: 246–258 [247],


Al-Kindi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi

--- laid the foundation for modern geo-physics and earth science.


Avicenna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

---- his book the Cannon of medicine, was used as a text-book in the universities of Montpellier and Louvain as late as 1650. The principles of medicine described by the Canon ten centuries ago are still taught at UCLA and Yale University, among others, as part of the history of medicine.


Ibn Zuhr --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Zuhr

He is considered the father of experimental surgery, for introducing the experimental method into surgery, introducing the methods of human dissection and autopsy, inventing the surgical procedure of tracheotomy, performing the first parenteral nutrition of humans with a silver needle, discovering the cause of scabies and inflammation, discovering the existence of parasites, and refuting the theory of four humours.


The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Compendious_Book_on_Calculation_by_Completion_ and_Balancing

---- Is the fundamentals of algebra and equation forming.




There are hundreds and hundreds of more examples. I mean seriously Dave, you cant be this thick. You call yourself and educated man?

Maths? You want contributions in Maths? Thats the realm of the Ancient Greeks. You want Astronomy? well there were half a douzen cultures that managed that before Islam.

What is Uniquely Islam is the style of domes encorperated into their Mosques...and the ornate and expansive Decor of their holy sites. Beyond that..again all you have is a list of a few individuals who noone has ever heard of.

We are NOT talking on an individual level...we are asking what has The Islamic Faith contributed to American Society...the answer dear Sir...is NOTHING.

I've never actually called myself an "educated man" its just not a phrase I use. but incase your wondering...I dont care for your tone...and I havent cared for your tude in quite some time...its about all I remember you for on this site...which isnt a compliment...I'll admit a judgement, possibly grossly mistaken, but they do say perception becomes reality...and I've so had it with the smart alecs on this forum, I really have.

I like to discuss and debate...there is a difference between that and either trolling, or arguing, or shyte stiring, or just giving one line sarcastic stage whispers...really its about time some people put the effort into keeping this forum special before it starts to become like all the other forums out there. We are in dire need of a breath of fresh air and a lively revolution, before we lose what was special about this place to smug no-it-alls who cant even discuss or debate properly.

J.B.
04-07-2010, 11:20 PM
oooo come on, SHAQ-FU. How can you not like that. Ok fine, your right it sucks, my bad.

And and sorry about the "playing for the suns".....my apologies friend.:wink:

:laugh:

This thread has turned into a full scale culture war

http://darkgeass.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/sparta.gif

mscomc
04-07-2010, 11:21 PM
Maths? You want contributions in Maths? Thats the realm of the Ancient Greeks. You want Astronomy? well there were half a douzen cultures that managed that before Islam.

What is Uniquely Islam is the style of domes encorperated into their Mosques...and the ornate and expansive Decor of their holy sites. Beyond that..again all you have is a list of a few individuals who noone has ever heard of.

We are NOT talking on an individual level...we are asking what has The Islamic Faith contributed to American Society...the answer dear Sir...is NOTHING.

.

See if you knew anything, you would know that much of what the greeks did got the ball rolling, but much of it was refuted later.

And no one has heard of them, I have. My colleague have, why, because we are scientists and almost any decent scientist would know these things. So dont say know one has heard of them.

Plus, what I showed you, were NEW contributions. But im sure you didnt take the time to read it. You see me rude? fine, sorry for that. Anyway, thread is long, I think I said what I could.

Anywhoo, im off, the cosby show is on. Peace!:)

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 11:25 PM
So now their contributions are nothing. Oh please. And and I knew several of them. So just because you dont know them, they are not well known, hmmm , ok. Get out of your flat more often.

You'd hope I'd know, having stuided Culture on an academic level. You'd hope I had a rough ideal about any large contributions of a different Faith like Islam.

What would you know about Islam anyway? Have you ever lived as a minority in a Majority Islamic city. :huh: do you have experience of having been immersed in their culture :huh: Have you ever even touched a Qu'ran let alone read one :huh: Do you have lots of Islamic Friends :huh: did you live amoungst the moderate Muslims right after the 9/11 attacks? Did you live amoung them when the U.S invaded Iraq :ninja:

Coz I have, I did, and I was. Tiz not I that needs to get out a bit more. perhaps you spend so much time looking at tiny weeny little details...and you forget the whole picture...a bit like your Avatar and previous topics of conversation suggest.....never mind the DNA...WTF does it actually build. Because giving me afew obscure names and wondering why I dont see that as a huge faith contribution...is like me giving you a single protein and wondering why you cant create a life with it. :rolleyes:

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 11:26 PM
prove to me he isn't a Muslim. He practiced Muslim faith. When is the last time you seen a Christian or Catholic Named Barack Hussein Obama

rockdawg21
04-07-2010, 11:28 PM
Where were Muslims during the Civil Rights era of this country?


Not Present. There are no pictures or media accounts of Muslims walking side by side With Martin Luther King, Jr. or helping to advance the cause of Civil Rights.
I agree with everything, but the Nation of Islam started in 1930 in Detroit. Eventually, Malcolm X became the "face" of it and played a significant part in the Civil Rights movement.

It was nothing more than a hate organization as the founder, Elijah Muhammad, referred to whites as "blue-eyed devils" and was against integration, but to say Muslims did not play a part in the Civil Rights movement is wrong.

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 11:34 PM
prove to me he isn't a Muslim. He practiced Muslim faith. When is the last time you seen a Christian or Catholic Named Barack Hussein Obama

He doesnt pray five to seven times a day. Tiz a requirement. Thats why the Mezzuines put a call out. Its really strange because they all do it at the same time...and they all sing different pitches...so it ends up sounding like a carcophany

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6zzYIsSdHk

They act like a Tintinabulum does for the Christians. :)

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 11:34 PM
Please deny this. Please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQPXVJuT2vY

NateR
04-07-2010, 11:34 PM
I agree with everything, but the Nation of Islam started in 1930 in Detroit. Eventually, Malcolm X became the "face" of it and played a significant part in the Civil Rights movement.

It was nothing more than a hate organization as the founder, Elijah Muhammad, referred to whites as "blue-eyed devils" and was against integration, but to say Muslims did not play a part in the Civil Rights movement is wrong.

I guess, they were talking about POSITIVE contributions.

rockdawg21
04-07-2010, 11:38 PM
Maths? You want contributions in Maths? Thats the realm of the Ancient Greeks. You want Astronomy? well there were half a douzen cultures that managed that before Islam.

What is Uniquely Islam is the style of domes encorperated into their Mosques...and the ornate and expansive Decor of their holy sites. Beyond that..again all you have is a list of a few individuals who noone has ever heard of.

We are NOT talking on an individual level...we are asking what has The Islamic Faith contributed to American Society...the answer dear Sir...is NOTHING.

I've never actually called myself an "educated man" its just not a phrase I use. but incase your wondering...I dont care for your tone...and I havent cared for your tude in quite some time...its about all I remember you for on this site...which isnt a compliment...I'll admit a judgement, possibly grossly mistaken, but they do say perception becomes reality...and I've so had it with the smart alecs on this forum, I really have.

I like to discuss and debate...there is a difference between that and either trolling, or arguing, or shyte stiring, or just giving one line sarcastic stage whispers...really its about time some people put the effort into keeping this forum special before it starts to become like all the other forums out there. We are in dire need of a breath of fresh air and a lively revolution, before we lose what was special about this place to smug no-it-alls who cant even discuss or debate properly.
FYI, Algebra was invented by a Muslim named al-Khwarizmi. He introduced Hindu-Arabic numerals and algebraic concepts into European mathematics.

rockdawg21
04-07-2010, 11:38 PM
I guess, they were talking about POSITIVE contributions.
Yeah, I understand that, but it wasn't stated that way. MLK was the man :)

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 11:42 PM
So maybe a few Muslims did do some good for our Country. How do we know which is good and which is bad? Do we just have to keep finding out the hard way or can we just investigate them and make sure they are not practicing anything that will hurt our Country.

Tyburn
04-07-2010, 11:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_IB6EBhX8g

Tintinnabulum :)

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 11:46 PM
I know this isn't Obama but Rev Wright was a Muslim and Obama went to his church for 20 years.

Obama’s pastor Jeremiah Wright: Former Muslim
by INFIDELESTO on APRIL 7, 2008 · COMMENTS
A reader from Free Republic has dug up an old article last year (March 07) From TNR about Obama. It was written by Ryan Lizza, Senior editor at The New Republic. It’s a biographical piece, but in the article, it explicitly states that Jeremiah Wright is a former Muslim.

From Wright and others, Obama learned that part of his problem as an organizer was that he was trying to build a confederation of churches but wasn’t showing up in the pews on Sunday. When pastors asked him the inevitable questions about his own spiritual life, Obama would duck them uncomfortably. A Reverend Philips put the problem to him squarely when he learned that Obama didn’t attend services. “It might help your mission if you had a church home,” he told Obama. “It doesn’t matter where, really. What you’re asking from pastors requires us to set aside some of our more priestly concerns in favor of prophesy. That requires a good deal of faith on our part. It makes us want to know just where you’re getting yours from.”

After many lectures like this, Obama decided to take a second look at Wright’s church. Older pastors warned him that Trinity was for “Buppies”–black urban professionals–and didn’t have enough street cred. But Wright was a former Muslim and black nationalist who had studied at Howard and Chicago, and Trinity’s guiding principles–what the church calls the “Black Value System”–included a “Disavowal of the Pursuit of Middleclassness.’”

The crosscurrents appealed to Obama. He came to believe that the church could not only compensate for the limitations of Alinsky-style organizing but could help answer the nagging identity problem he had come to Chicago to solve. “It was a powerful program, this cultural community,” he wrote, “one more pliant than simple nationalism, more sustaining than my own brand of organizing.”

As a result, over the years, Wright became not only Obama’s pastor, but his mentor. The title of Obama’s recent book, The Audacity of Hope, is based on a sermon by Wright. (It’s worth noting, however, that, while Obama’s book is a coolheaded appeal for common ground in an age of political polarization, Wright’s sermon, “The Audacity to Hope,” is a fiery jeremiad about persevering in a world of nuclear arms and racial inequality.) Wright is one of the first people Obama thanked after his Senate victory in 2004, and he recently name-checked Wright in his speech to civil rights leaders in Selma, Alabama.

So the question is, why hasn’t anyone mentioned the fact that he’s a former Muslim? Could this be why Obama’s church posted a Hamas manifesto in the Trinity Church program last year? It obviously explains Wright’s affinity with Louis Farrakhan. It also explains more why Rev. Wright got his Masters degree in “Islam in West Africa”

This is just another blow to the Obama campaign. The American people are not ready to hand the reins to someone who’s associations are beyond sketchy.

donaldbreland
04-07-2010, 11:54 PM
Ok I know this is a youtube clip but these were words from his own mouth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 12:06 AM
To say Obama is a Muslim is plain wrong of me because I really don't know. What I should have said is that he practiced it before at a time in his life.

rockdawg21
04-08-2010, 12:38 AM
To say Obama is a Muslim is plain wrong of me because I really don't know. What I should have said is that he practiced it before at a time in his life.
Things change. I used to practice abstinence, then I became a teenager. :laugh:

Vizion
04-08-2010, 01:33 AM
Fact is Obama is saying Muslims have positivley impacted America "always" - :blink:

A few basketball players, rappers and boxers really don't count for much. A few mathematicians also don't count for much.

Muslims ALL over the WORLD FOMENT chaos, dismay, destruction etc etc. Suddenly, in the US, they are a whole lot of wonderful :rolleyes: Yea, ok... tell that to the voters in 2012 you dope.

Robertboxerboy
04-08-2010, 02:03 AM
I know im still young, but i dislike muslims and I can tell you why.

My sister served 2 tours to iraq.
The first she had a road bomb go off on the side of the road a few miles ahead of her, she caught it on video, and my mother cried thinking that could have been her
Also the first time the family had her on speaker phone so that we could all talk to her. A short bit into our conversation you heard a loud explosion not far off. Then you hear my sister yell "OH MY GOD, I LOVE YOU GUYS I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU". Nothing. For two days. She called later in the week to tell us they were recieving mortar fire. Two times she was almost killed.

My brother in law cant hear worth crap from all the explosions and fire fights. But let me tell you they are both TRUCK DRIVERS in Iraq. Part of their job is to stop in towns and hand out food and water to children.

I guess i just dont like the fact that we are over their trying to save they're government (not our place to step in though in my mind) and they are trying to kill our troops.

NateR
04-08-2010, 02:51 AM
I guess i just dont like the fact that we are over their trying to save they're government (not our place to step in though in my mind) and they are trying to kill our troops.

We didn't go over there to save their government, we went over there to overthrow it. Saddam was a brutal dictator who murdered hundreds of thousands of his own citizens, which included the use of WMDs. He needed to be disposed of. What we are doing right now is trying to stabilize the country with a democratic form of government and no one ever claimed that was going to be easy or quick. Public dissent will do nothing but prolong the process and put our service members in even more jeopardy.

I have a brother serving in Iraq right now, so I understand your worry. However, that fact doesn't dimish the importance of what we are doing over there.

mscomc
04-08-2010, 02:59 AM
FYI, Algebra was invented by a Muslim named al-Khwarizmi. He introduced Hindu-Arabic numerals and algebraic concepts into European mathematics.

Thanks Dawg, us southparker's need to stick together :wink:

Sometimes it is very hard to have a convo with dave.

Black Mamba
04-08-2010, 03:02 AM
I know im still young, but i dislike muslims and I can tell you why.

My sister served 2 tours to iraq.
The first she had a road bomb go off on the side of the road a few miles ahead of her, she caught it on video, and my mother cried thinking that could have been her
Also the first time the family had her on speaker phone so that we could all talk to her. A short bit into our conversation you heard a loud explosion not far off. Then you hear my sister yell "OH MY GOD, I LOVE YOU GUYS I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU". Nothing. For two days. She called later in the week to tell us they were recieving mortar fire. Two times she was almost killed.

My brother in law cant hear worth crap from all the explosions and fire fights. But let me tell you they are both TRUCK DRIVERS in Iraq. Part of their job is to stop in towns and hand out food and water to children.

I guess i just dont like the fact that we are over their trying to save they're government (not our place to step in though in my mind) and they are trying to kill our troops.

I feel ya Robert. My great uncle served over in Iraq three times, and survived 2 IED attacks. My friend's buddies who were in a band together both died last year. It's tough to support something like this, but I'm a firm believer in if you don't stand behind the troops then stand in front of them.

I have a friend of mine in college who's working on trying to become a doctor. She's orginally from Pakistan (practices Islam, wears the wrap thingy), and recently her sister and brother were able to acquire a green card. What's my point? Someone a long time ago best summed it up perfectly on here when it comes to Muslims:
"We are lucky that Muslims do not seriously practice their religion."

What does that mean? Well take a brief look into the Koran, and you'll see that praises what these terrorists do. Thankfully most of the Muslim population doesn't take their religion to heart, or else we have some serious jihad. And from my personal opinion, this war on terrorism is going to go on for decades. Even when Bin Laden dies, he has set on legacy that will live on. I also think we shouldn't just fear Radical Muslim, but home grown terrorist.

It's scary to think in these chemistry and biology labs that I'm in, colleges could be training the next Chemical/Biological Ali. The amount of knowledge I've acquired in 2 semesters of general chem, 1 semester of organic chem, 1 semester intro cell/molecular biology and 1 semester of intro organismal biology...is astronomical. Especially in chemistry, that introductory information, mixed in with some research online....you can have one dangerous person on your hands. I'm sure Mscomc knows what I'm talking about. You hope you don't have loonies in your lab. Especially today, I was working with 12M sulfuric acid...that crap dissolved my gloves! If you really PO'd at someone in lab, you can do some damage!

mscomc
04-08-2010, 03:04 AM
Ok I know this is a youtube clip but these were words from his own mouth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I


UMMM, donald, did you listen carefully? I think you just heard the word muslim.

He said "John mccain has not talked about my muslim faith" .... he was saying that in the context of someone ELSE calling him a muslim. He even clarified it at 1:24 of the video. No one is going to think he is a muslim from this video. Any one who does.......:blink:

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 03:11 AM
UMMM, donald, did you listen carefully? I think you just heard the word muslim.

He said "John mccain has not talked about my muslim faith" .... he was saying that in the context of someone ELSE calling him a muslim. He even clarified it at 1:24 of the video. No one is going to think he is a muslim from this video. Any one who does.......:blink:

He clarified it because he just made a mistake and said he was Muslim and it wasn't until the guy giving the interview said you mean your Christian faith. Correct me if I am wrong but I would never make the mistake and say I am catholic. Right after he said it and only when the guy corrected him did he try to defend himself.

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 03:17 AM
He won over the Muslims during election lol.
http://islam.about.com/b/2008/11/07/poll-muslims-voted-for-obama.htm
Poll: Muslims voted for Obama
Friday November 7, 2008
According to a post-election poll by the American Muslim Taskforce on Civil Rights and Elections (AMT), nearly 90% of American Muslims voted for President-Elect Barack Obama last Tuesday. Only 2% voted for Senator John McCain, in what was the the highest turnout ever of American Muslim voters. Many respondents voted in what were considered "swing" states, such as Virginia, Michigan, Florida, and Pennsylvania. Topping the list of voter concerns was the economy (63%), followed by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (16%).
Read more: Newsweek Article - Islam and Obama

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 03:22 AM
This is a very good story on the elections.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/168062

Neezar
04-08-2010, 03:24 AM
The only Muslim contribution to American history has been one of murder, terror and barbarism. I can't think of a single positive contribution by Muslims to American culture.

I would wager that the majority of American's walking around can't think of anything positive either. Now, can they google or research something? Sure.

Neezar
04-08-2010, 03:29 AM
There are hundreds and hundreds of more examples. I mean seriously Dave, you cant be this thick. You call yourself and educated man?

I'm not sure that you should be judging anyone else's level of education. I mean, you have just made an argument as such:

Nate, if you can't show that you have personally contributed something to American history or culture then it MUST be true that the Muslim nation has. :Whistle:

Nate vs Muslims :laugh: I will take NateR. lol

mscomc
04-08-2010, 03:34 AM
Fact is Obama is saying Muslims have positivley impacted America "always" - :blink:

A few basketball players, rappers and boxers really don't count for much. A few mathematicians also don't count for much.

Muslims ALL over the WORLD FOMENT chaos, dismay, destruction etc etc. Suddenly, in the US, they are a whole lot of wonderful :rolleyes: Yea, ok... tell that to the voters in 2012 you dope.

Ok I listed: Rappers, boxers, basketball players and Football players. If you are going to tell me that those last 3 things in particular are not as entrenched in american culture as uncle sam, then you have GOT to be kidding me.

Secondly, I personally listed: Politicians (who served under republican presidents), current congressmen, scientists, engineers and medical doctors, and military persons....what more do you want? I guarantee there are thousands of other noteworthy people who just have not had their name published.

Plus, all this stems from nate saying he cant think of a single thing muslims contribute to america/ american culture....I would say I shot that down in numbers alone.


Oh, and since you seem to think there are NO photos of muslims during the civil rights movement with other notable leaders, is this one ok for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MLK_and_Malcolm_X_USNWR_cropped.jpg
:wink:

Neezar
04-08-2010, 03:35 AM
this isnt about Good or Bad Muslims.

This is about Islams contribution to Culture...specifically American Culture...there is none.

So we arent talking about Moderate Muslims, of which there are many, nor are we talking about evil Muslims, of which their is an ever growing minority...we are talking about the influence of a faith on culture...particularly American....Your President seems to think their is one...I'm not sure I follow his power of deduction though :laugh:

.

Exactly!

Vizion
04-08-2010, 03:35 AM
He won over the Muslims during election lol.
http://islam.about.com/b/2008/11/07/poll-muslims-voted-for-obama.htm
Poll: Muslims voted for Obama
Friday November 7, 2008
According to a post-election poll by the American Muslim Taskforce on Civil Rights and Elections (AMT), nearly 90% of American Muslims voted for President-Elect Barack Obama last Tuesday. Only 2% voted for Senator John McCain, in what was the the highest turnout ever of American Muslim voters. Many respondents voted in what were considered "swing" states, such as Virginia, Michigan, Florida, and Pennsylvania. Topping the list of voter concerns was the economy (63%), followed by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (16%).
Read more: Newsweek Article - Islam and Obama

And here I thought that there was nothing left to despise NO-Bama over :angry:

No wonder he speaks of them in such glowing terms. Yet, when has he EVER said a kind word about Evangelical Christians...then again, satan rarely does that.

Neezar
04-08-2010, 03:37 AM
mscomc, if I decided to list all the bad things that muslims have done to or in the US, which list would have the most? Mine or yours?

mscomc
04-08-2010, 03:38 AM
I'm not sure that you should be judging anyone else's level of education. I mean, you have just made an argument as such:

Nate, if you can't show that you have personally contributed something to American history or culture then it MUST be true that the Muslim nation has. :Whistle:

Nate vs Muslims :laugh: I will take NateR. lol

:ashamed:

Ok, I am sorry. I got a little hot under the collar.

But in terms of your second part (bolded), I dont understand where you are going with that. Nate said the examples I gave (I have now produced 3 lists) were pathetic. So since those were not good examples, I was asking what he thinks are good examples. And since he seems to be Mr. America and always saying what it means to be a good american and what the founding fathers stood for, surely he can give me examples of his contributions that made america and himself good. Thats all.

And if this is NOT where you were going with this, I am sorry, its been a long day.:laugh:

mscomc
04-08-2010, 03:43 AM
mscomc, if I decided to list all the bad things that muslims have done to or in the US, which list would have the most? Mine or yours?

That was NOT the original debate Nate and I were having. He said he couldnt think of a single good thing, how many times do I have to repeat this.

Secondly, your list of bad things probably would have a surge in the last 10 years. So those people who did bad things invalidate all the other good hardworking muslims in america going back to what seems to be the late 1700's?

I am sure there are good people who are just like you, and want to live normal lives, but dont have their names in the newspapers or websites so people cant look them up, to make LISTS. So in that regards, if we took all the muslims in america and counted the bad vs the good, I say the most are good. I would say the same of my own country.

I am not going to get into this.



********* Oh lordy I just saw the time. Ok I gave all I could to this debate, thanks to all who debated with me, whether we agree or not, time to let someone else step in. Peace!

Neezar
04-08-2010, 03:52 AM
That was NOT the original debate Nate and I were having. He said he couldnt think of a single good thing, how many times do I have to repeat this.



In regards to the above I am not sure what you tried to debate here. He said he couldn't think of anything. That means that nothing stood out in his mind of any accomplishments contributed to America. He didn't say that he couldn't get on google and find any good muslims.


Think about that just a moment, please.

You may be highly educated in most areas, however, if you truly believe that the majority of people walking around know those people or what they contributed off the top of their heads....no wait.....if you believe that 25% of the population knows those people without using google or research then .....well, you obviously have never visited my part of the country. :laugh:





So in that regards, if we took all the muslims in america and counted the bad vs the good, I say the most are good. I would say the same of my own country.

I am not going to get into this.

But we aren't talking about whether muslims are good or bad people are we? :huh:

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 04:10 AM
The problem we are all facing on this topic is that no matter what someone says on here we will have our own opinions of this matter. I don't think mscomc really understands how us Americans feel or can clearly understand why we feel the way we do about Terrorists attacking America. No disrespect Dave but I don't even think you can feel or truly understand how we feel. The United States to me means more to me than my family. My God comes first and then My Country. The reason it's like that is because I had many ancestors die defending this Country and people that didn't even know me died for my freedom. They took it upon themselves not to be selfish and lay down their lives so I can go to walmart and eat and work in this Country. Freedom is amazing and being born in this land and being a true blooded United States Citizen is amazing. If 9-11 would have happened in Canada I wouldn't understand how you guys felt. Canada would have to be my home for me to understand it. The same with England. I do respect your views and it's good to see you care but you will never know why we feel the way we do.

mscomc you come on here and question NateR about what he has done for this Country. That's an insult to any American. This man put on a uniform and dedicated his life for us Americans to have Freedom. You Can Do No More Than That. Even our cowardly President didn't join our military. The best you can do is accuse us for being nutt huggers of Nate (that may be Buzzard I don't know for sure) because we agree with him. I never joined the Military but all my family did and I wish I would've before I had kids because I would die for my Country in a second. No Questions. NateR probably disagrees with me strongly but there is one thing I do have in common with him. I am a true blooded born United States Citizen who loves this Country. Well we agree on two things. We love Matt Hughes. Please put me on the list as well.

I know you're going to say something about True Blooded United States Citizen
This is my definition: True Blooded United States Citizen
ANYONE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES. Religion doesn't matter. Because you are all GODS children.

Buzzard
04-08-2010, 04:50 AM
Last thing, Buzzard, you think that you are winning arguements in here? You are just proving us right. Everything you said about me in your reply was exactly what I knew you would say. You are all the same, and I pray for you. I bet it eats you alive that you cant shake our faith. It's ok, I know that you will deny it, but we both know the truth.

Now come back with a cute long winded post about how ignorant and uneducated I am, tell us about how you think you stand for America and whatever. Tell us about how we are all full of hate and all of that, heck you might even put me on the suck up list for being a believer(yay), but no matter what I am still going to pray for you to accept Christ into you heart.
I know that some are going to cry about this being in the politics section when it should be in the religion section, but, every part of my life revolves around my relationship with God, including my politics.
(cant wait for you to question my stance because of my earlier post)

Hey Rev, if you would have contributed something with your first reply instead of being a cheerleader maybe I could take you seriously. As it is, in your first reply you offered up nothing but to say I should be voted off the island. At least you addressed an issue with your second reply.

As for thinking I am winning arguments, I don't think that at all, especially with the members of this forum. I do feel that I have made many more valid points than DB ever has when discussing topics with me. You rarely have ever addressed the issues with me, instead you seem to choose sitting on the sideline playing Forum Survivor. If you wish to discuss the issues, I'd love to hear your point of view.

I don't need to call you out for what you have said because I haven't seen you spew the hate filled rhetoric that NateR did.

As for your faith, I'm glad that you have it and it hurts me none. I have no need to try and shake your faith, it matters to me not one bit. As long as I am free to not believe in your or other people's gods, I am fine. Our beliefs in gods are similar, only I believe in one less god than you do.

If you wish to pray for me, thanks. I don't wish to take away your right to practice your religion.

I don't even bother clicking the links he posts anymore. I just had to laugh to myself when he said that Muslims have never said anything bad about Christians, because there is no way any intelligent person can truly be that detached from reality.

Are you through laughing at yourself yet for not comprehending my first post?

There is evidence that Timothy McVeigh had ties to Osama bin Laden, so the Oklahoma City bombing falls into the category of Muslim terrorism.


Since Timothy McVeigh was supposedly a Christian, couldn't the bombing also fall into the category of Christian terrorism? If it's good enough to equate the bombing with Islam, shouldn't it also be good enough to equate it to Christianity?

you've been shown proof before. Your only here to argue...at least Donald is actually working through things...struggling, but working them through...you just stir.

You have shown me no proof in the CONUS or the DoI that states that the USA is a Christian nation. The Treaty of Tripoli states that we are not. I challenge you to find reference to the USA being a Christian nation in the CONUS or the DoI.

I'm also here to laugh at your poor grasp of basic education fundamentals.:laugh:

We are NOT talking on an individual level...we are asking what has The Islamic Faith contributed to American Society...the answer dear Sir...is NOTHING.

You're wrong. Mscomc was correct. Here is the original post by NateR that was responded to.

The only Muslim contribution to American history has been one of murder, terror and barbarism. I can't think of a single positive contribution by Muslims to American culture.

See Tyburn, it's right there in front of you.

I've never actually called myself an "educated man" its just not a phrase I use. but incase your wondering...I dont care for your tone...and I havent cared for your tude in quite some time...its about all I remember you for on this site...which isnt a compliment...I'll admit a judgement, possibly grossly mistaken, but they do say perception becomes reality...and I've so had it with the smart alecs on this forum, I really have.

You may not have used the words "educated man", but you sure have no problems listing your academic accomplishments. How you passed without the knowledge of the basics still has my head spinning.:frantics:

I like to discuss and debate...there is a difference between that and either trolling, or arguing, or shyte stiring, or just giving one line sarcastic stage whispers...really its about time some people put the effort into keeping this forum special before it starts to become like all the other forums out there. We are in dire need of a breath of fresh air and a lively revolution, before we lose what was special about this place to smug no-it-alls who cant even discuss or debate properly.

I do too and I would feel safe in stating that Mscomc likes to discuss and debate too. I think he has done a great job in this thread as well as others. "golf clap"

Do you consider yourself one of the smug "no-it-alls" (sic)? I think that you fall into that category. I probably fall into the "know-some-of-it" category, but am always looking for more answers to many questions. Maybe one day I can reach "know-it-all" status.

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 04:52 AM
Mr Buzzard wrote:
I don't think that at all, especially with the members of this forum. I do feel that I have made many more valid points than DB ever has when discussing topics with me.

I call B.S and bring it sucka.

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 04:55 AM
Since Timothy McVeigh was supposedly a Christian, couldn't the bombing also fall into the category of Christian terrorism? If it's good enough to equate the bombing with Islam, shouldn't it also be good enough to equate it to Christianity?

I don't think so. I would say that is very unchristian like. Seems to me he may have converted into something else.

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 04:59 AM
Timmotyh Mcveigh:
McVeigh was born into an Irish Catholic family in Lockport, New York to William McVeigh and Mildred Noreen "Mickey" (née Hill).[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 05:02 AM
1490-1492 – Columbus’ commission was given to set out to find a new world.

According to Columbus’ personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to “bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. …. It was the Lord who put into my mind … that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies … I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely … No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service.” (Columbus’ Book of Prophecies)


April 10, 1606 – The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:

“To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God.”

November 3, 1620 – King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.

“In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty.”

November 11, 1620 – The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.

“For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith … doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick.”

March 4, 1629 – The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:

“For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion..”

January 14, 1638 – The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.

“To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe…”

August 4, 1639 – The governing body of New Hampshire is established.

“Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God…”

September 26, 1642 – The rules and precepts that were to govern Harvard were set up.

“Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3 and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdome, Let every one seriously set himselfe by prayer in secret to seeke it of him Prov. 2.3.”

Harvard College was founded on Christi Gloriam and later dedicated Christo et Ecclesiae. The founders of Harvard believed that “all knowledge without Christ was vain.”

The charter of Yale University clearly expressed the purpose for which the school was founded: “Whereas several well disposed and Publick spirited Persons of their sincere Regard to & zeal for upholding & propagating of the Christian Protestant Religion … youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church & Civil State.”

In addition to Harvard and Yale, 106 out of the first 108 schools in America were founded on the Christian faith.

April 3, 1644 – The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.

“That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses … be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction …”

1647 – Governor William Bradford publishes Of Plimouth Plantation.

“Lastly, (and which was not least,) a great hope and inward zeall they (the Pilgrims) had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for ye propagation and advancing of ye gospell or ye kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of ye world; yea, though they should be but stepping-stones unto others for ye performing of so great a work … their desires were set on ye ways of God, and to employ his ordinances; but they rested on his providence, and know whom they had beleeved.”

April 21, 1649 – The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.

“Be it therefor … enacted … that no person or persons whatsoever within this province … professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall … henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) … in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof …”

April 25, 1689 – The Great Law of Pennsylvania is passed.

“Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government … therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God …”

May 20, 1775 – North Carolina passes the Mecklenburg County Resolutions.

“We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of a right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no other power than that of our God and the general government of Congress.”

Summer 12, 1775 – Continental Congress issues a call to all citizens to fast and pray and confess their sin that the Lord might bless the land.

“And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and to abstain from servile labor and recreation on said day.”

Summer 2-4, 1776 – Declaration of Independence written and signed.

“We hold these truths … that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights … appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world … And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence…”

As the Declaration was being signed, Samuel Adams said: “We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come.”

On the same day, Benjamin Franklin suggested that the national motto be: “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

Historian and philosopher G.K. Chesterton said of the founding of America that it is “the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth in dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence.”

September 17, 1787 – The Constitution of the United States is finished.

At least 50 out of the 55 men who framed the Constitution of the United States were professing Christians. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company, Plymouth Rock Foundation., 1982).

Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

The Constitution of each of the 50 States acknowledges and calls upon the Providence of God for the blessings of freedom.

1787 – James Madison, the “architect” of the federal Constitution and fourth president:

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future .. upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

April 30, 1789 – Washington gives his First Inaugural Address.

“My fervent supplications to that Almighty Being Who rules over the universe, Who presides in the council of nations, and Whose providential aid can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by Himself for these essential purposes.”

March 11, 1792 – President George Washington:

“I am sure that never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency which so often manifested in the Revolution.”

December 20, 1820 – Daniel Webster, Plymouth Massachusetts:

“Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers brought hither their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate … and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political and literary.”

July 4, 1821 – John Quincy Adams:

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration … they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct.”

1833 – Noah Webster:

“The religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles … This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions and government … the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.”

1841 – Alexis de Tocqueville (Democracy in America):

“In the United States of America the sovereign authority is religious … there is no other country in the world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America.”

Summer 8, 1845 – President Andrew Jackson asserts:

“The Bible is the rock upon which our Republic rests.”

February 11, 1861 – Abraham Lincoln, farewell at Springfield, Illinois:

“Unless the great God who assisted (Washington) shall be with me and aid me, I must fail; but if the same Omniscient Mind and Mighty Arm that directed and protected him shall guide and support me, I shall not fail … Let us all pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now.”

Lincoln on the Bible:

“In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we would not know right from wrong. All things most desireable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.” (George L. Hunt, Calvinism and the Political Order, Westminster Press, 1965, p.33)

1884 – U.S. Supreme Court reiterates the Declaration’s reference to our rights as being God-given.

These inherent rights have never been more happily expressed than in the Declaration of Independence, “we hold these truths to be self-evident” that is, so plain that their truth is recognized upon their mere statement “that all men are endowed” – not by edicts of emperors, or by decrees of parliament, or acts of Congress, but “by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and to secure these” – not grant them but secure them “governments are instituted among men.”

1891 – The U.S. Supreme Court restates that America is a “Christian Nation.”

“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian … this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation … we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth … this is a Christian nation.” (Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 143 US 457, 36 L ed 226, Justice Brewer)

1909 – President Theodore Roosevelt:

“After a week on perplexing problems … it does so rest my soul to come into the house of The Lord and to sing and mean it, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty’ … (my) great joy and glory that in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of the Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world.” (Ferdinand C. Iglehart, Theodore Roosevelt – The Man As I knew Him, A.L. Burt, 1919)

1913 – President Woodrow Wilson:

“America was born to exemplify the devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the Holy Scriptures.”

1952 – US Supreme Court defines the “Separation of Church and State.”

“We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being … No Constitutional requirement makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against the efforts to widen the scope of religious influence. The government must remain neutral when it comes to competition between sects … The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every respect there shall be a separation of Church and State.”

January 20, 1977 – President Jimmy Carter:

“Here before me is the Bible used in the inauguration of our first President in 1789, and I have just taken the oath of office on the Bible my mother gave me just a few years ago, opened to the timeless admonition from the ancient prophet Micah: ‘He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God’” (Micah 6:2).

1980 – President Ronald Reagan:

“The time has come to turn to God and reassert our trust in Him for the Healing of America … our country is in need of and ready for a spiritual renewal.”

May 3, 1990 – President George Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer.

“The great faith that led our Nation’s Founding Fathers to pursue this bold experience in self-government has sustained us in uncertain and perilous times; it has given us strength to this very day. Like them, we do very well to recall our ‘firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,’ to give thanks for the freedom and prosperity this nation enjoys, and to pray for continued help and guidance from our wise and loving Creator.”

DOES THIS HELP BUZZARD?

Buzzard
04-08-2010, 05:05 AM
DOES THIS HELP BUZZARD?

Nope, nothing at all from the CONUS or DoI. Surely you can find something in those two documents, or can you?

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 05:09 AM
I don't believe this Country was solely founded for a Christian Nation. I do however believe this Country was founded on Christian beliefs by Christian forefathers. I also believe this Country was founded for Freedom of Religion. I believe that in order to be Religious you have to believe in GOD. See we all miss the point here. It's not about our Religion. It's about the fact that we accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour and that We believe in GOD.

Buzzard are you saying that our forefather didn't come here for freedom of Religion and that they didn't believe in God? So what you're saying is that they are atheist.

NateR
04-08-2010, 05:34 AM
I don't believe this Country was solely founded for a Christian Nation. I do however believe this Country was founded on Christian beliefs by Christian forefathers. I also believe this Country was founded for Freedom of Religion. I believe that in order to be Religious you have to believe in GOD. See we all miss the point here. It's not about our Religion. It's about the fact that we accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour and that We believe in GOD.

Buzzard are you saying that our forefather didn't come here for freedom of Religion and that they didn't believe in God? So what you're saying is that they are atheist.

Well, again I have to quote John Jay, one of our Founding Fathers, the author of the Federalist Papers, President of the Continental Congress, governor of New York from 1795-1801, and the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court:
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

The Founding Fathers understood that America was to be a Christian nation founded upon Biblical, Judeo-Christian doctrine.

Buzzard
04-08-2010, 05:47 AM
Well, again I have to quote John Jay, one of our Founding Fathers, the author of the Federalist Papers, President of the Continental Congress, governor of New York from 1795-1801, and the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court:


The Founding Fathers understood that America was to be a Christian nation founded upon Biblical, Judeo-Christian doctrine.

I disagree. Show where it states that we are a Christian nation in the CONUS or the DoI. While many individuals may have thought that, the nation itself wasn't founded as a Christian nation. Please show where it states that in our founding documents.

NateR
04-08-2010, 06:00 AM
I disagree. Show where it states that we are a Christian nation in the CONUS or the DoI. While many individuals may have thought that, the nation itself wasn't founded as a Christian nation. Please show where it states that in our founding documents.

I've posted all the evidence necessary several times before, if you didn't bother to read it then, then I doubt you would now.

The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were written with only general references to GOD. This was not because the Christian Founding Fathers wanted to create a secular, GOD-less nation. They simply didn't want the Federal Government to appear to be imposing a specific denomination of Christianity upon the States.

Again, I've posted this information before. Back in those days we were a loose confederation of states with a bare-bones, weak central government. So, you need to read the State Constitutions from that time, in addition to the CONUS and DoI, to get the proper historical context.

flo
04-08-2010, 06:13 AM
Nate vs Muslims :laugh: I will take NateR. lol

Word. :)

J.B.
04-08-2010, 06:35 AM
The fact that America IS a Christian nation is something non-believers are going to try and fight tooth and nail to the bitter end to disprove. It's obvious, but they refuse to accept or embrace it.

Still, I won't deny that some people who consider themselves Muslims have actually contributed positive things to American culture. That doesn't mean that it outweighs the negative impacts that the faith of Islam has caused America, but merely that there have been members of our society who call themselves Muslims that have positively contributed to things that ARE part of American culture.

Buzzard
04-08-2010, 07:19 AM
1490-1492 – Columbus’ commission was given to set out to find a new world.

According to Columbus’ personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to “bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. …. It was the Lord who put into my mind … that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies … I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely … No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service.” (Columbus’ Book of Prophecies)


April 10, 1606 – The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:

“To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God.”

November 3, 1620 – King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.

“In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty.”

November 11, 1620 – The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.

“For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith … doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick.”

March 4, 1629 – The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:

“For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion..”

January 14, 1638 – The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.

“To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe…”

August 4, 1639 – The governing body of New Hampshire is established.

“Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God…”

September 26, 1642 – The rules and precepts that were to govern Harvard were set up.

“Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3 and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdome, Let every one seriously set himselfe by prayer in secret to seeke it of him Prov. 2.3.”

Harvard College was founded on Christi Gloriam and later dedicated Christo et Ecclesiae. The founders of Harvard believed that “all knowledge without Christ was vain.”

The charter of Yale University clearly expressed the purpose for which the school was founded: “Whereas several well disposed and Publick spirited Persons of their sincere Regard to & zeal for upholding & propagating of the Christian Protestant Religion … youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church & Civil State.”

In addition to Harvard and Yale, 106 out of the first 108 schools in America were founded on the Christian faith.

April 3, 1644 – The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.

“That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses … be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction …”

1647 – Governor William Bradford publishes Of Plimouth Plantation.

“Lastly, (and which was not least,) a great hope and inward zeall they (the Pilgrims) had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for ye propagation and advancing of ye gospell or ye kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of ye world; yea, though they should be but stepping-stones unto others for ye performing of so great a work … their desires were set on ye ways of God, and to employ his ordinances; but they rested on his providence, and know whom they had beleeved.”

April 21, 1649 – The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.

“Be it therefor … enacted … that no person or persons whatsoever within this province … professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall … henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) … in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof …”

April 25, 1689 – The Great Law of Pennsylvania is passed.

“Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government … therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God …”

May 20, 1775 – North Carolina passes the Mecklenburg County Resolutions.

“We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of a right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no other power than that of our God and the general government of Congress.”

Summer 12, 1775 – Continental Congress issues a call to all citizens to fast and pray and confess their sin that the Lord might bless the land.

“And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and to abstain from servile labor and recreation on said day.”

Summer 2-4, 1776 – Declaration of Independence written and signed.

“We hold these truths … that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights … appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world … And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence…”

As the Declaration was being signed, Samuel Adams said: “We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come.”

On the same day, Benjamin Franklin suggested that the national motto be: “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

Historian and philosopher G.K. Chesterton said of the founding of America that it is “the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth in dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence.”

September 17, 1787 – The Constitution of the United States is finished.

At least 50 out of the 55 men who framed the Constitution of the United States were professing Christians. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company, Plymouth Rock Foundation., 1982).

Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

The Constitution of each of the 50 States acknowledges and calls upon the Providence of God for the blessings of freedom.

1787 – James Madison, the “architect” of the federal Constitution and fourth president:

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future .. upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

April 30, 1789 – Washington gives his First Inaugural Address.

“My fervent supplications to that Almighty Being Who rules over the universe, Who presides in the council of nations, and Whose providential aid can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by Himself for these essential purposes.”

March 11, 1792 – President George Washington:

“I am sure that never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency which so often manifested in the Revolution.”

December 20, 1820 – Daniel Webster, Plymouth Massachusetts:

“Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers brought hither their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate … and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political and literary.”

July 4, 1821 – John Quincy Adams:

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration … they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct.”

1833 – Noah Webster:

“The religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles … This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions and government … the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.”

1841 – Alexis de Tocqueville (Democracy in America):

“In the United States of America the sovereign authority is religious … there is no other country in the world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America.”

Summer 8, 1845 – President Andrew Jackson asserts:

“The Bible is the rock upon which our Republic rests.”

February 11, 1861 – Abraham Lincoln, farewell at Springfield, Illinois:

“Unless the great God who assisted (Washington) shall be with me and aid me, I must fail; but if the same Omniscient Mind and Mighty Arm that directed and protected him shall guide and support me, I shall not fail … Let us all pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now.”

Lincoln on the Bible:

“In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we would not know right from wrong. All things most desireable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.” (George L. Hunt, Calvinism and the Political Order, Westminster Press, 1965, p.33)

1884 – U.S. Supreme Court reiterates the Declaration’s reference to our rights as being God-given.

These inherent rights have never been more happily expressed than in the Declaration of Independence, “we hold these truths to be self-evident” that is, so plain that their truth is recognized upon their mere statement “that all men are endowed” – not by edicts of emperors, or by decrees of parliament, or acts of Congress, but “by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and to secure these” – not grant them but secure them “governments are instituted among men.”

1891 – The U.S. Supreme Court restates that America is a “Christian Nation.”

“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian … this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation … we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth … this is a Christian nation.” (Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 143 US 457, 36 L ed 226, Justice Brewer)

1909 – President Theodore Roosevelt:

“After a week on perplexing problems … it does so rest my soul to come into the house of The Lord and to sing and mean it, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty’ … (my) great joy and glory that in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of the Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world.” (Ferdinand C. Iglehart, Theodore Roosevelt – The Man As I knew Him, A.L. Burt, 1919)

1913 – President Woodrow Wilson:

“America was born to exemplify the devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the Holy Scriptures.”

1952 – US Supreme Court defines the “Separation of Church and State.”

“We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being … No Constitutional requirement makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against the efforts to widen the scope of religious influence. The government must remain neutral when it comes to competition between sects … The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every respect there shall be a separation of Church and State.”

January 20, 1977 – President Jimmy Carter:

“Here before me is the Bible used in the inauguration of our first President in 1789, and I have just taken the oath of office on the Bible my mother gave me just a few years ago, opened to the timeless admonition from the ancient prophet Micah: ‘He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God’” (Micah 6:2).

1980 – President Ronald Reagan:

“The time has come to turn to God and reassert our trust in Him for the Healing of America … our country is in need of and ready for a spiritual renewal.”

May 3, 1990 – President George Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer.

“The great faith that led our Nation’s Founding Fathers to pursue this bold experience in self-government has sustained us in uncertain and perilous times; it has given us strength to this very day. Like them, we do very well to recall our ‘firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,’ to give thanks for the freedom and prosperity this nation enjoys, and to pray for continued help and guidance from our wise and loving Creator.”

Donald, just an FYI. Usually when someone copies a complete web page they acknowledge the author or supply the link so as to give credit to the original author and not take the credit for the work themselves. I do believe this is where you got your information. http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0192_America_-_A_Christia.html Naturally you would go to a religious website to bolster your claim, and I could and have quickly found numerous other sites which refute your claim. Three will follow.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

http://bmccreations.com/one_nation/nation.html

I've posted all the evidence necessary several times before, if you didn't bother to read it then, then I doubt you would now.

The evidence you provided does not prove that the USA was founded as a Christian nation. I've read it, and while some of the early settlers and such were Christian, not all of them were. Many were Deists.


The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were written with only general references to GOD. This was not because the Christian Founding Fathers wanted to create a secular, GOD-less nation. They simply didn't want the Federal Government to appear to be imposing a specific denomination of Christianity upon the States.

Again, I've posted this information before. Back in those days we were a loose confederation of states with a bare-bones, weak central government. So, you need to read the State Constitutions from that time, in addition to the CONUS and DoI, to get the proper historical context.

The context still doesn't add up to state that we were founded as a Christian nation.

The fact that America IS a Christian nation is something non-believers are going to try and fight tooth and nail to the bitter end to disprove. It's obvious, but they refuse to accept or embrace it.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point. The fact that America isn't a Christian nation is something believers are going to try and fight tooth and nail to the bitter end to disprove. The facts and documents are there, but believers refuse to accept or embrace it.

Still, I won't deny that some people who consider themselves Muslims have actually contributed positive things to American culture. That doesn't mean that it outweighs the negative impacts that the faith of Islam has caused America, but merely that there have been members of our society who call themselves Muslims that have positively contributed to things that ARE part of American culture.

Here we can at least arrive to an agreement of sorts. I won't deny that Muslims have wreaked havoc on our soil on 9/11 and the prior WTC bombing, but in the same breath I will also state that Christians, non-Christians and other religious and non-religious groups have also wreaked havoc on our soil as well. If you are going to include one group, why stop there when others have done terrible things too? Perhaps not on a comparable one-day event scale, but terrible things individually and on a group basis.

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 07:38 AM
Where is PTM? Haven't seen him lately...he needs to get in on this discussion!

:ashamed:

J.B.
04-08-2010, 08:07 AM
We will have to agree to disagree on this point. The fact that America isn't a Christian nation is something believers are going to try and fight tooth and nail to the bitter end to disprove. The facts and documents are there, but believers refuse to accept or embrace it.


I don't even care to argue the historical semantics or bullcrap anymore. It's been beaten to death, and no matter what type of argument is given in that respect, there has already been a counter-argument created by the other side.

I will just say like it needs to be said. There are more Christians in this country than any other religion or form of non-religion, period. For that matter, there are more Christians on this PLANET than any other religion.

It's a numbers game that your side comes up very short on. People do not check their religious beliefs at the door, even if they try. The ones who TRULY do that, are NOT religious, and as previously noted, they are the minority.

You don't have to agree, nor do I expect you to.


Here we can at least arrive to an agreement of sorts. I won't deny that Muslims have wreaked havoc on our soil on 9/11 and the prior WTC bombing, but in the same breath I will also state that Christians, non-Christians and other religious and non-religious groups have also wreaked havoc on our soil as well. If you are going to include one group, why stop there when others have done terrible things too? Perhaps not on a comparable one-day event scale, but terrible things individually and on a group basis.

The discussion is about Muslims and they have done a lot of crappy things besides just terrorist attacks. Nobody denied that other people do crappy things too, so why change the subject when the spotlight gets put on Muslims?

After all the time you have spent here, surely you must realize by now that there is a fundamental difference between followers of the two religions that will never come to agreement. It's a topic that will always rile emotions and no matter how much in the center of the debate non-believers try to put themselves, they will never comprehend or fully understand it. It's why you are typically perceived as trolling when you beat the same drum over and over. How long has it been now, 2 or 3 years?

I don't care to get in a pissing match with you much anymore, we have done that plenty. I just don't understand why you have bothered to keep trying for so long. To each his own. :)

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 08:14 AM
Here is the exact wording and the "examples" he enumerates:

I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers - Thomas Jefferson - kept in his personal library.


OK
1) Morocco was the first nation to recognize the US (I will take his word for it)
2)John Adams said the US doesn't hate Muslim laws or religion
3)Some general blathering about enrichment

So I guess, technically, one could say there is a grain of truth in his ambiguous statement - although it's a stretch - kind of like Clinton talking about what the definition of is is.

I would not have mentioned that Muslims built our tallest building. But that's just me.

I wish reporters would do their jobs. An unbiased reporter would ask pertinent follow-up questions (e.g. "Why did Thomas Jefferson have a Koran in his library?" or "What did the Treaty of Tripoli address?") Obama acts like the Treaty of Tripoli was a good thing - like a treaty concerning free trade, for instance. The Treaty of Tripoli was in response to the issue of piracy of American ships by Muslim pirates. For centuries, Muslim pirates seized European and American ships. Women were sold to harems to be sex slaves. Men were made slaves or castrated to become eunuchs. The total number of Europeans and Americans sold into slavery is estimated at 1 million people. America was forced to pay ransom and bribes to these Islamic pirates.

In 1786 Thomas Jefferson, then US ambassador to France, and John Adams, then US Ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Dey’s ambassador to Britain, in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress’ vote of funding. To the US Congress these two future Presidents later reported the reasons for the Muslims’ hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts.

“…that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

The ironic thing about Obama citing the Treaty of Tripoli is that it was subsequently broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli when he demanded higher ransom/bribe payments from Jefferson. Jefferson refused and sent in the U.S. Navy. The Marine Hymn contains the phrase "to the shores of Tripoli" because - how did Obama phrase it? - "Islam has always been a part of America's story". "Part of America's story" indeed!

Somehow, I don't think Jefferson was using the Koran for leisurely reading. He was doing opposition research. Obama's whole quote is very disingenuous.

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 08:30 AM
To clarify my stance on this......I am outraged at the attacks of 9/11 and the shootings at Fort Lewis. I understand that Muslims were behind those attacks.

I also understand that Timothy McVeigh was Irish Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there have been any significant contributions made by Irish Catholics in America.

I think the initial statement by NateR was broad and one of hatred. Substitute the race mentioned in your comment for a color and that post could very easily find itself on any one of the many white supremacist forums that are on the web.

I don't even know what the "list" is.

Later.

I don't think the analogy is valid. McVeigh was not a devout Roman Catholic. I don't know of any Roman Catholic authority that has or would justify his actions. His motivation was not religious; his motivation was political. He was not following the New Testament when he committed his crimes; he was following The Turner Diaries. Before his death, his final statement quotes the poem, Invictus:

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


These are not the final words of a Christian. They are the words of a pagan (or perhaps a Satanist); not a Christian.

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 09:11 AM
This isnt really targeted to anyone else, but since Nate and Neezar made fun of my list, here are a few more.....I mean seriously. I am trying to list famous muslim americans and their contributions. So for a community of only about 5 million in a country of 300 million, I think I have listed a fair and proportionate number of people.

Keith Ellison (politician)

Keith Maurice Ellison is an American lawyer, politician, and a Democrat. He became the first Muslim to be elected to the United States Congress when he won the open seat for Minnesota's 5th congressional district, which centers on Minneapolis, in the House of Representatives in 2006. He is also the first African American elected to the House from Minnesota.

André Carson

André D. Carson (born October 16, 1974) is the United States Representative for Indiana's 7th congressional district and the grandson of his predecessor, former U.S. Representative Julia Carson. Carson got his professional start as a law enforcement officer, serving as an investigator for the Indiana State Police for nine years.


Siraj Wahhaj

A prominent community activist. In 1988 he led his community in an anti-drug patrol in which they staked out drug houses in Bedford-Stuyvesant in the cold of winter for 40 days and nights, forcing the closure of 15 drug houses. This effort received high praise from the New York City Police Department and the media.

Zalmay Khalilzad

He was the United States Ambassador to the United Nations under President George W. Bush. He has been involved with U.S. policy makers at the White House since the early 1980s, and was the highest-ranking Muslim American in the Administration of U.S. President George W. Bush. Khalilzad's previous assignments in the Administration include U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq.

Fareed Zakaria

Indian-American journalist and author. He is the host of CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS, and a frequent commentator and author about issues related to international relations, trade and American foreign policy.


Lewis Arquette
was an American film actor, writer and producer. Arquette was known for playing "J.D. Pickett" on the TV series, The Waltons, where he worked from 1978–1981.

Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan ****you are going to say this guy didnt give anything?
was a Muslim-American U.S. Army Specialist who died in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart for his service. He is buried in Arlington National Cemetery with full military honors.

Robert D. Crane
former adviser to the late President of the United States Richard Nixon, and is former Deputy Director (for Planning) of the United States National Security Council.[2] He has authored or co-authored more than a dozen books[3] and over 50 professional articles on comparative legal systems, global strategy, and information management.

James Yee
An American former United States Army chaplain with the rank of captain. In his appointed role as chaplain, Yee ministered to Muslim detainees held at Guantánamo Bay detention camp and received commendation from his superiors for his work.

Dr. Mehmet Oz

A Turkish-American cardiothoracic surgeon and author. He has made frequent appearances on The Oprah Winfrey Show, as well as appearances on Larry King Live, CNN, and other networks. In 2009, he launched The Dr. Oz Show.

I think you guys get the point, so Ill just pad it out with some more sports stars. But according to nate, these guys dont really matter. Funny, I guess all those sports bars in the U.S are there for nothing? So these guys could not have possibly contributed to america. And all those concerts and merchandise there music artists sell....that couldnt possibly have had an effect. Okie Dokie.
-------------------
Laila Ali - Daughter of Muhammad Ali, Former 2 time Female Super Middleweight Champion.

Eddie Mustafa Muhammad - Former Light Heavyweight Champion

Hasim Rahman - Former Heavyweight champion [72]

Dwight Muhammad Qawi - Former Light Heavyweight and Cruiserweight Champion.

Matthew Saad Muhammad - Former Light Heavyweight Champion.


Shaquille O'Neal - Player for the Phoenix Suns, also a rapper and actor

Rasheed Wallace - Center/power forward of the Detroit Pistons

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf - Former player for Denver Nuggets

Hamza Abdullah - Safety player for the Cleveland Browns

Husain Abdullah - Safety player for the Minnesota Vikings

Ahmad Brooks - Linebacker player for the San Francisco 49ers

Ahmad Rashād - Former player for Minnesota Vikings, award winning sports-caster (converted in 1972)

And in a bit of a joke, for all you WWE fans... Khosrow Vaziri (The Iron Sheik):laugh:

MSCOMC, I think it is laudable that you are trying to stick up for a group of people that you think is being unfairly stigmatized; however, I think you could have chosen some of your examples more carefully.

For example, some of the people in this list or your prior list are Black Muslims/Nation of Islam. They believe that 6,600 years ago, the white race - a race of devils - was created by an evil scientist named Yacub, on the Island of Patmos (I wish I were, but I am not making this up).

Keith Ellison is one such person with significant ties to the Nation of Islam. Ellison also is linked with the "Flying Imams". In fact, they were in Minnesota meeting with Ellison before their flight back to the Southwest when they exhibited their threatening behavior to the other passengers and flight attendants.

James Yee was charged with espionage. Authorities found vile pornography on his laptop and discovered that he was committing adultery. He was discharged from the military. Reportedly, the reason he was not ultimately prosecuted for espionage was because the trial would have divulged national intelligence secrets (for example, in the trial of the 1993 WTC bombers, the defense was able to discover that Osama Bin Laden's satellite phone was being tracked by U.S. Intelligence). I know you listed a Muslim soldier who died with military honors. Unfortunately, he seems to be an exception rather than the rule. Muslims are under-represented in the U.S. Military. They did not sign up in large numbers after 9/11. Another post mentions Japanese-Americans during WWII. Within the relatively short period from Pearl Harbor until the end of WWII, Japanese Americans in the 442nd had managed to become the most decorated unit in military history. The time from 9/11 until the present is almost double that time period and unfortunately, the best known Muslim veterans are: Hasan Akbar, who killed fellow soldiers with a grenade; James Yee, the aforementioned chaplain accused of spying; Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter who shouted "Allahu Akbar!" while he gunned down unarmed soldiers, including a pregnant soldier and her unborn child; John Allen Muhammad, the D.C. sniper.

Some of the other people you listed are vile. Ice Cube made racist threats against Koreans (He is/was involved with the aforementioned Nation of Islam). The only reason I was familiar with the name, Akon, is because I remember a controversy a few years back when he simulated sexual intercourse on stage with a 15 year old girl. I believe he also was charged with throwing a boy off the music stage into a crowd. I personally don't appreciate what these individuals have done to our culture.

I think most people would agree that since there are millions of Muslims in our country, it would be a fair statement to say that many or most have worked hard and made some sort of contribution. However, the presence of significant numbers of Muslims in American is relatively recent. The Muslim contribution to American history, until recently, has been miniscule, in the grand scheme of things (you know you are scraping the bottom of the barrel when the most significant American Muslim of the 19th century is a camel trainer).

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 09:26 AM
He won over the Muslims during election lol.
http://islam.about.com/b/2008/11/07/poll-muslims-voted-for-obama.htm
Poll: Muslims voted for Obama
Friday November 7, 2008
According to a post-election poll by the American Muslim Taskforce on Civil Rights and Elections (AMT), nearly 90% of American Muslims voted for President-Elect Barack Obama last Tuesday. Only 2% voted for Senator John McCain, in what was the the highest turnout ever of American Muslim voters. Many respondents voted in what were considered "swing" states, such as Virginia, Michigan, Florida, and Pennsylvania. Topping the list of voter concerns was the economy (63%), followed by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (16%).
Read more: Newsweek Article - Islam and Obama

That is a frightening statistic. If the Muslim population keeps growing, that voting bloc is going to change our foreign policy, with devastating consequences I fear.

NateR
04-08-2010, 09:58 AM
I think I learned more reading PTM's last few posts than I did my entire first semester of American History in high school.:cool:

Neezar
04-08-2010, 11:06 AM
Here we can at least arrive to an agreement of sorts. I won't deny that Muslims have wreaked havoc on our soil on 9/11 and the prior WTC bombing, but in the same breath I will also state that Christians, non-Christians and other religious and non-religious groups have also wreaked havoc on our soil as well. If you are going to include one group, why stop there when others have done terrible things too? Perhaps not on a comparable one-day event scale, but terrible things individually and on a group basis.

Well, I will tell you why we would stop there. We are discussing a statement made by Obama and I didn't see where he mentioned those other groups. This discussion is about what muslims have positively contributed to American history and culture. Not what they have done in comparison to other groups.

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 11:23 AM
Exactly!

thanks :laugh:

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 11:28 AM
I think I learned more reading PTM's last few posts than I did my entire first semester of American History in high school.:cool:

He's fantastic isnt he :w00t:

I only wish he and Parmanidies had been posting at the same point in Forum History.

CAVEMAN
04-08-2010, 04:38 PM
INTERESTING THREAD!

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 05:12 PM
PTM said everything I wanted to say. I just wasn't smart enough to use them words. Great Job.

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 05:20 PM
actually I took the original question the wrong way. I thought they were talking about American Born Muslims. You know. The ones born a muslim.

You say I am thick headed. I believe I have to be. Mr Williams I respect you and your post but I am tired of being insulted instead of being debated. The only one on here that actually debates with me is mcs. That I respect him for. Do I agree with him. Heck no. But do I respect him. Of Course. All I have ever wanted to do was to let people know who we are at war with. Then people come on here and say Americans are killing more Americans. Crazy. Just Crazy.
Americans are killing Americans everyday which is true but not on a terrorist type of level. Think about the sniper in D.C for a moment. He killed innocent Americans. What about the 3000 people who died on 9-11.

Please read this list this time Please?


The initial numbers are indelible: 8:46 a.m. and 9:02 a.m. Time the burning towers stood: 56 minutes and 102 minutes. Time they took to fall: 12 seconds. From there, they ripple out.

Total number killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819
Number of firefighters and paramedics killed: 343
Number of NYPD officers: 23
Number of Port Authority police officers: 37
Number of WTC companies that lost people: 60
Number of employees who died in Tower One: 1,402
Number of employees who died in Tower Two: 614
Number of employees lost at Cantor Fitzgerald: 658
Number of U.S. troops killed in Operation Enduring Freedom: 22
Number of nations whose citizens were killed in attacks: 115
Ratio of men to women who died: 3:1
Age of the greatest number who died: between 35 and 39
Bodies found "intact": 289
Body parts found: 19,858
Number of families who got no remains: 1,717
Estimated units of blood donated to the New York Blood Center: 36,000
Total units of donated blood actually used: 258
Number of people who lost a spouse or partner in the attacks: 1,609
Estimated number of children who lost a parent: 3,051
Percentage of Americans who knew someone hurt or killed in the attacks: 20
FDNY retirements, January–July 2001: 274
FDNY retirements, January–July 2002: 661
Number of firefighters on leave for respiratory problems by January 2002: 300
Number of funerals attended by Rudy Giuliani in 2001: 200
Number of FDNY vehicles destroyed: 98
Tons of debris removed from site: 1,506,124
Days fires continued to burn after the attack: 99
Jobs lost in New York owing to the attacks: 146,100
Days the New York Stock Exchange was closed: 6
Point drop in the Dow Jones industrial average when the NYSE reopened: 684.81
Days after 9/11 that the U.S. began bombing Afghanistan: 26
Total number of hate crimes reported to the Council on American-Islamic Relations nationwide since 9/11: 1,714
Economic loss to New York in month following the attacks: $105 billion
Estimated cost of cleanup: $600 million
Total FEMA money spent on the emergency: $970 million
Estimated amount donated to 9/11 charities: $1.4 billion
Estimated amount of insurance paid worldwide related to 9/11: $40.2 billion
Estimated amount of money needed to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $7.5 billion
Amount of money recently granted by U.S. government to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $4.55 billion
Estimated amount of money raised for funds dedicated to NYPD and FDNY families: $500 million
Percentage of total charity money raised going to FDNY and NYPD families: 25
Average benefit already received by each FDNY and NYPD widow: $1 million
Percentage increase in law-school applications from 2001 to 2002: 17.9
Percentage increase in Peace Corps applications from 2001 to 2002: 40
Percentage increase in CIA applications from 2001 to 2002: 50
Number of songs Clear Channel Radio considered "inappropriate" to play after 9/11: 150
Number of mentions of 9/11 at the Oscars: 26
Apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup: 30,000
Number of apartments whose residents have requested cleanup and testing: 4,110
Number of Americans who changed their 2001 holiday-travel plans from plane to train or car: 1.4 million
Estimated number of New Yorkers suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder as a result of 9/11: 422,000
Your misunderstanding of the original post is what brought me to the conclusion that you were thick-headed. You flip-flopped in your statements, and it's silly.

As someone that's been deployed to Somalia (pre 9-11), Iraq twice, and Afghanistan once since the attacks of 9-11, you don't have to post a list telling me that there are 30,000 apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup. I'm fully aware that 9-11 was a tragedy and America will NEVER be the same because of it, regardless who is in office.

Big Government doesn't always tell us the truth and things get fabricated.

Later.

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 05:27 PM
Yeah, I've read through the posts........

Let each and every Muslim perish from this earth because they're all no good and don't deserve to be here.

Vizion
04-08-2010, 05:53 PM
Yeah, I've read through the posts........

Let each and every Muslim perish from this earth because they're all no good and don't deserve to be here.
No one said they should all die, that is you dramatizing everything here.

Secondly, as a Christian I defer to this scripture: "He is not with me, is against me" Matt 12:8. That means that Muslims are enemies of God...which makes them WHAT? Our friends O_o ??

This is part of the reason why I am not overjoyed by their presence. That, and because they are responsible for almost all of the violence we see in the world today that is driven by religion.

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 06:11 PM
No one said they should all die, that is you dramatizing everything here.

Secondly, as a Christian I defer to this scripture: "He is not with me, is against me" Matt 12:8. That means that Muslims are enemies of God...which makes them WHAT? Our friends O_o ??

This is part of the reason why I am not overjoyed by their presence. That, and because they are responsible for almost all of the violence we see in the world today that is driven by religion.
As a Christian, I'll refer to scripture as well......what did Jesus say in 5:43-47? O_o ?? Pay close attention to vs. 44.

Religion is the issue here. We seem to have no problems with the ciminals in our own country (wherever that may be) committing rape, murder, or any other act of violence......because they're not doing it in the name of religion.

Look, don't get me wrong. I think that the violence is sickening and the fact that it's commited in such a cowardly manner makes it even worse. But I will NOT group them or say that not a single Muslim, in the history of these United States has NOT made a significant contribution to ANYTHING. Afterall, it was that comment that got this whole thing started.

P.S. Matthew 12:8 says
"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." (NIV)
"The Son of Man is no lackey to the Sabbath; he's in charge." (Message)

You were thinking of Matthew 12:30.

Later.

Vizion
04-08-2010, 06:19 PM
As a Christian, I'll refer to scripture as well......what did Jesus say in 5:43-47? O_o ?? Pay close attention to vs. 44.

Religion is the issue here. We seem to have no problems with the ciminals in our own country (wherever that may be) committing rape, murder, or any other act of violence......because they're not doing it in the name of religion.

Look, don't get me wrong. I think that the violence is sickening and the fact that it's commited in such a cowardly manner makes it even worse. But I will NOT group them or say that not a single Muslim, in the history of these United States has NOT made a significant contribution to ANYTHING. Afterall, it was that comment that got this whole thing started.
Yes, I we can love them. But we do not have to respect their beliefs, nor keep silent. Will finish later, off to lunch.

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 06:25 PM
Yes, I we can love them. But we do not have to respect their beliefs, nor keep silent. Will finish later, off to lunch.
I whole-heartedly agree with you. We don't have to.

You can appreciate how quickly this thread got out of hand.....you posted the thread to bring to light the mistakes of our President and the limited knowledge he has on Muslims in America......and it's quickly turned to something much different.

Later.

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 06:30 PM
He's fantastic isnt he :w00t:

I only wish he and Parmanidies had been posting at the same point in Forum History.

Tyburn, I told you before . . . I am Permanides!:wink:

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 06:38 PM
No one said they should all die, that is you dramatizing everything here.

Secondly, as a Christian I defer to this scripture: "He is not with me, is against me" Matt 12:8. That means that Muslims are enemies of God...which makes them WHAT? Our friends O_o ??

This is part of the reason why I am not overjoyed by their presence. That, and because they are responsible for almost all of the violence we see in the world today that is driven by religion.

" For the one who is not against us is for us." :ninja: Mark 9:40 :laugh:

Said by Jesus when the Disciples tried to stop someone who was not a follower from conducting an exorcism calling on Jesus' power O_o

flo
04-08-2010, 06:39 PM
I wish reporters would do their jobs. An unbiased reporter would ask pertinent follow-up questions (e.g. "Why did Thomas Jefferson have a Koran in his library?" or "What did the Treaty of Tripoli address?") Obama acts like the Treaty of Tripoli was a good thing - like a treaty concerning free trade, for instance. The Treaty of Tripoli was in response to the issue of piracy of American ships by Muslim pirates. For centuries, Muslim pirates seized European and American ships. Women were sold to harems to be sex slaves. Men were made slaves or castrated to become eunuchs. The total number of Europeans and Americans sold into slavery is estimated at 1 million people. America was forced to pay ransom and bribes to these Islamic pirates.



The ironic thing about Obama citing the Treaty of Tripoli is that it was subsequently broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli when he demanded higher ransom/bribe payments from Jefferson. Jefferson refused and sent in the U.S. Navy. The Marine Hymn contains the phrase "to the shores of Tripoli" because - how did Obama phrase it? - "Islam has always been a part of America's story". "Part of America's story" indeed!

Somehow, I don't think Jefferson was using the Koran for leisurely reading. He was doing opposition research. Obama's whole quote is very disingenuous.



Thanks for that info, PTM; I wan't familiar with the Treaty of Tripoli and didn't look it up. The press needs to do their job (and look it up too, if need be), I'm tired of them ignoring these questionable statements.

flo
04-08-2010, 06:41 PM
The Marine Hymn contains the phrase "to the shores of Tripoli" because - how did Obama phrase it? - "Islam has always been a part of America's story". "Part of America's story" indeed!

And Obama has the cojones to cite that as an example?? :huh:

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 06:44 PM
The Marine Hymn contains the phrase "to the shores of Tripoli"



:w00t: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlafHVqhM10 :laugh:

The lyrics are actually quite...funny in some places "if the Army and the Navy ever look on Heavens Scene, they will find the streets are guarded by the United States Marines" So forget meeting NateR at the Pearly Gates...its gonna be Boomer LOL

Mindue...a lot of Anthems have...interesting wording...you know there is a verse of the National Anthem which we dont sing anymore:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

Being one of them ahahahahahahaha

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 06:47 PM
Your misunderstanding of the original post is what brought me to the conclusion that you were thick-headed. You flip-flopped in your statements, and it's silly.

As someone that's been deployed to Somalia (pre 9-11), Iraq twice, and Afghanistan once since the attacks of 9-11, you don't have to post a list telling me that there are 30,000 apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup. I'm fully aware that 9-11 was a tragedy and America will NEVER be the same because of it, regardless who is in office.

Big Government doesn't always tell us the truth and things get fabricated.

Later.


I still don't see how you say I flip flopped anything. I may say things and then a few hours later read something that proves me wrong. That's called learning. He who not learns will never know anything. Men are allowed to make mistakes. The good men admit to them and make them better.
I have asked several times how do we know which are good and which are bad. Am I right that their religion hates Christians?

rearnakedchoke
04-08-2010, 06:51 PM
No one said they should all die, that is you dramatizing everything here.

Secondly, as a Christian I defer to this scripture: "He is not with me, is against me" Matt 12:8. That means that Muslims are enemies of God...which makes them WHAT? Our friends O_o ??

This is part of the reason why I am not overjoyed by their presence. That, and because they are responsible for almost all of the violence we see in the world today that is driven by religion.

what about matthew 5:44?

but I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 06:52 PM
I still don't see how you say I flip flopped anything. I may say things and then a few hours later read something that proves me wrong. That's called learning. He who not learns will never know anything. Men are allowed to make mistakes. The good men admit to them and make them better.
I have asked several times how do we know which are good and which are bad. Am I right that their religion hates Christians?
Nobody ever said that you were wrong, that their religion hates Christians. However, they're doing it (hating Christians) under the guise of religion......many people on this board are just hating to hate (in response to their hatred), no religion needed.

Later.

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 06:54 PM
MSCOMC, I think it is laudable that you are trying to stick up for a group of people that you think is being unfairly stigmatized; however, I think you could have chosen some of your examples more carefully.

For example, some of the people in this list or your prior list are Black Muslims/Nation of Islam. They believe that 6,600 years ago, the white race - a race of devils - was created by an evil scientist named Yacub, on the Island of Patmos (I wish I were, but I am not making this up).

Keith Ellison is one such person with significant ties to the Nation of Islam. Ellison also is linked with the "Flying Imams". In fact, they were in Minnesota meeting with Ellison before their flight back to the Southwest when they exhibited their threatening behavior to the other passengers and flight attendants.

James Yee was charged with espionage. Authorities found vile pornography on his laptop and discovered that he was committing adultery. He was discharged from the military. Reportedly, the reason he was not ultimately prosecuted for espionage was because the trial would have divulged national intelligence secrets (for example, in the trial of the 1993 WTC bombers, the defense was able to discover that Osama Bin Laden's satellite phone was being tracked by U.S. Intelligence). I know you listed a Muslim soldier who died with military honors. Unfortunately, he seems to be an exception rather than the rule. Muslims are under-represented in the U.S. Military. They did not sign up in large numbers after 9/11. Another post mentions Japanese-Americans during WWII. Within the relatively short period from Pearl Harbor until the end of WWII, Japanese Americans in the 442nd had managed to become the most decorated unit in military history. The time from 9/11 until the present is almost double that time period and unfortunately, the best known Muslim veterans are: Hasan Akbar, who killed fellow soldiers with a grenade; James Yee, the aforementioned chaplain accused of spying; Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter who shouted "Allahu Akbar!" while he gunned down unarmed soldiers, including a pregnant soldier and her unborn child; John Allen Muhammad, the D.C. sniper.

Some of the other people you listed are vile. Ice Cube made racist threats against Koreans (He is/was involved with the aforementioned Nation of Islam). The only reason I was familiar with the name, Akon, is because I remember a controversy a few years back when he simulated sexual intercourse on stage with a 15 year old girl. I believe he also was charged with throwing a boy off the music stage into a crowd. I personally don't appreciate what these individuals have done to our culture.

I think most people would agree that since there are millions of Muslims in our country, it would be a fair statement to say that many or most have worked hard and made some sort of contribution. However, the presence of significant numbers of Muslims in American is relatively recent. The Muslim contribution to American history, until recently, has been miniscule, in the grand scheme of things (you know you are scraping the bottom of the barrel when the most significant American Muslim of the 19th century is a camel trainer).



Speaking of Keith Ellison, I came across this news story today: http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article37660.ece

DAMMAM: An American Muslim congressman said work is under way to improve the visa process for Saudis traveling to the United States.

Keith Ellison, Democratic congressman for Minneapolis, also expressed confidence that the two nations' long relationship would grow stronger in the coming years.

Ellison, who was acting as head of a trade delegation to Saudi Arabia, made the remarks on Wednesday during a visit to the Asharqia Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Dammam.

He led a delegation of CEOs and managing directors of American companies from the sectors of oil and gas, information technology, petrochemicals, insurance, engineering, banking, transport, communications, security, health and contracting.

"We have a long-term relationship. However, no relationship can stay strong unless it is nurtured and so the point of our trade mission is to nurture and strengthen that relationship," Ellison told Arab News exclusively.

"My view is that since 9/11 some Americans haven't really understood the strength of the relationship, so what we are trying to do is to reacquaint a whole new generation of American businesspeople with our long and time-tested mutually beneficial relationship."

To those ends, Ellison said he is working to ease travel to the United States.

"One of the things that I have to take on as one of my own personal projects is to ameliorate this visa issue," Ellison said.

Ellison wants to make it easier for Saudis to get visas and come to the U.S. It sounds like a great idea to me! What could possibly go wrong?

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/9_11-hijackers.jpg

http://wyblog.us/images/wtc_attack.jpg

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 06:58 PM
And Obama has the cojones to cite that as an example?? :huh:

:laugh: Obama probably doesnt understand the Treaty anymore then Buzzard does :laugh:

Does Barack have a State Advisor? Because if so, he wants to Employ PTM, to avoid...accidents :blink::laugh:

rearnakedchoke
04-08-2010, 07:07 PM
Speaking of Keith Ellison, I came across this news story today: http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article37660.ece



Ellison wants to make it easier for Saudis to get visas and come to the U.S. It sounds like a great idea to me! What could possibly go wrong?

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/9_11-hijackers.jpg

http://wyblog.us/images/wtc_attack.jpg

yeah, it's crazy .. no one before has ever kissed ass to the saudi's, and all of a sudden, this new administration loves em ...

http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/files/2008/04/300_bush-saudi.jpg

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 07:11 PM
Here's an interesting read......it's almost following the same path as this thread.....

http://justifiedright.typepad.com/justified_right/2009/09/obama-please-list-the-muslim-contributions-to-america.html

Later.

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 07:16 PM
yeah, it's crazy .. no one before has ever kissed ass to the saudi's, and all of a sudden, this new administration loves em ...

http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/files/2008/04/300_bush-saudi.jpg

http://earthhopenetwork.net/obama_bowing_to_saudi_king.jpg

Listen, we could trade pictures all day. My point is, we should not be making it easier for Saudis to enter this country.

flo
04-08-2010, 07:17 PM
He's talking about Congressman Ellison working to relax visa requirements for SA, not "kissing ass".

Well said, PTM.

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 07:19 PM
I still don't see how you say I flip flopped anything. I may say things and then a few hours later read something that proves me wrong. That's called learning. He who not learns will never know anything. Men are allowed to make mistakes. The good men admit to them and make them better.
I have asked several times how do we know which are good and which are bad. Am I right that their religion hates Christians?

No...not exactly.

Their Religion says that Allah looks favourably on Christians and Jews, infact will even grant them access to paradise..IF...and ONLY IF...they will live peace with Islam.

Islam regards any attempt to stop its spread, as being an act of war. So...you can be a Christian...but you must not stand up to Islam in any way, shape or form. If you do, then they will consider that an act of war, in such cases you have offended them and Allah, and therefore you're an enemy to be squashed.

Submit to Islamic Authorities, and Islam will deal peacefully with you, and accept you spiritually as you are without conversion...but I do mean complete submission to their politics, their spread, their law....This of course is fine so long as you as a devout christian never have to come into contact with Islam...but the problem is, that the Faith wishes to expand...and its far more concerned with its political authority, then its spirituality in a sence...see there are two different types of Islamic Regieme. One is an Islamic Country...like Turkey for example...The other is whats known as an Islamic State...this means that the Spiritual Leaders are ABOVE the Government...and THAT is the spread they actually seek primarily...because if they get that, they dont need everyone to convert to own and control the country.

Turkey nearly became an Islamic State a year or so ago...but the Muslims rejected the ideal...Its as much a bondage for them as it would be for us.

Also...Even if you lived peacefully, and you submitted to their laws et al...if you decided to promote your own religion...that would be considered being in competition...that would be an act of warfare...and thus there would be NO ability to evangelise.

You end up with the ability to hold a personal belief...but the inability to talk or act on it...basically...the sad thing is...so many "christians" are so lapse...they practically live that way now, which is why they dont care about all the things in the newspapers about Christians being persecuted at work for wearing crosses...when Islamic Dress code is perfectly acceptable...The Mail even had a portion written by an Islamic Professor who said he was horrified at the double standards of a Christian Country in basically promoting Islam but squashing its own tradition.

The laugh of it is...Christianity is supposed to be as aggressive as Islam in its spread. Its called the Great Comission. Its supposed to be as passionate about a Single GOD, Unity within the Trinity...But the Christians seem to forget they are in a war and fighting a battle...Its shocking...Islam as a whole doesnt take us seriously because we show no passion in what we believe.

I remember a lady called Ruth Ward (She's now fallen asleep) but she worked as a teacher in a school in Bradford. A school that had lots of islamic children and teachers. As usual she would get out her Bible in the staff room at a break or whatever...and on one occasion she put the Bible down to go get something...and one of her Islamic Collegues came in, and picked the Bible up from the floor and put it on the table. She turned to Ruth and said "you do consider it Holy, dont you?" Not even her own Faith, but she recongnised a book was considered Holy, and she couldnt allow it to rest upon the floor. Thats the level of respect that Christians simply dont have towards the sacred....and its certainly not what your average christian would do if they found a Qu'ran on the floor.

CAVEMAN
04-08-2010, 07:23 PM
BACK to the thread title........Obama is clueless!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

This is what we get when a "community organizer" is given the most important job in the world!

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 07:24 PM
BACK to the thread title........Obama is clueless!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

This is what we get when a "community organizer" is given the most important job in the world!

I wouldnt even go that far..."public speaker" is about all ive seen from him. other then rudeness to people when he doesnt get his own way :laugh:

Dethbob
04-08-2010, 07:28 PM
Of course you can't, because your apparent hatred of Muslims has blinded you. There are good and bad folks in all walks of life and all religions. All one needs to do is open their eyes to the good that people from all races, religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs and differing cultures have done, instead of being blinded by xenophobia and hatred.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/american-life/Muslim-Students-Bring-Food-Conversation-to-Florida-Homeless-89434512.html

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/muslim_america.html

I've never heard any Muslim people that I know talk smack about Christians in the way that you talk about Muslims.


Interesting!

The first link describes the activities of the "Tampa Bay Muslim Alliance", a group linked to Sami Al-Arian.

The second link celebrates the Obama administrations cooperation with groups like this.

Is Hamas the new ‘Acorn’?

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 07:30 PM
Interesting!

The first link describes the activities of the "Tampa Bay Muslim Alliance", a group linked to Sami Al-Arian.

The second link celebrates the Obama administrations cooperation with groups like this.

Is Hamas the new ‘Acorn’?

Do you mean Hamas...or Fatah :huh: they dont get on with each other either :laugh: There is actually TWO Palastines...one owned by Hamas...the other owned by Fatah...Fatah hates Israel and Hamas, Hamas hates Fatah and Israel and Israel hates Fatah and Hamas.

...and they all try to squish into the land of milk and honey, whilst trying to boot the other out.. BTW...your Government are against Israel doing their East Jerusalem Settlement...they sided with the Palastinians...but I cant remember which one hahahaha

Dethbob
04-08-2010, 07:38 PM
Do you mean Hamas...or Fatah :huh: they dont get on with each other either :laugh:

Maybe it was Hezbollah, I don’t know without a chart!

Besides, I think the criticality of that distinction depends on perspective.

Tyburn
04-08-2010, 07:40 PM
Maybe it was Hezbollah, I don’t know without a chart!


:laugh: the cedars of lebanon! :laugh:

Nice one :laugh:

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 07:42 PM
Interesting!

The first link describes the activities of the "Tampa Bay Muslim Alliance", a group linked to Sami Al-Arian.

The second link celebrates the Obama administrations cooperation with groups like this.

Is Hamas the new ‘Acorn’?

Many of these Islamic groups are covertly associated with the Muslim Brotherhood. For example, CAIR and other Islamic groups were listed as unindicted co-conspirators in the Holy Land Foundation trial. They were all involved in funneling money to Hamas. People should read up on the Muslim Brotherhood's "Project"; they have spelled out in black-and-white how they plan an Islamic takeover of the world.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html

Rod Dreher: What the Muslim Brotherhood means for the U.S.

Memo lays bare group's plans to destroy U.S. from within

11:17 AM CDT on Sunday, September 9, 2007

"Our strategy is this," President Bush said last month. "We will fight them over there so we do not have to face them in the United States of America."

He was talking about jihadists, of course. And Mr. Bush is behind the curve. The president apparently missed the smoking-gun 1991 document his own Justice Department introduced into evidence at the Holy Land Foundation trial in Dallas. The FBI captured it in a raid on a Muslim suspect's home in Virginia.

This "explanatory memorandum," as it's titled, outlines the "strategic goal" for the North American operation of the extremist Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan). Here's the key paragraph:

The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.

The entire 18-page platform outlines a plan for the long haul. It prescribes the Muslim Brotherhood's comprehensive plan to set down roots in civil society. It begins by both founding and taking control of American Muslim organizations, for the sake of unifying and educating the U.S. Muslim community – this to prepare it for the establishment of a global Islamic state governed by sharia.

It sounds like a conspiracy theory out of a bad Hollywood movie – but it's real. Husain Haqqani, head of Boston University's Center for International Relations and a former Islamic radical, confirms that the Brotherhood "has run most significant Muslim organizations in the U.S." as part of the plan outlined in the strategy paper.

The HLF trial is exposing for the first time how the international Muslim Brotherhood – whose Palestinian division is Hamas – operates as a self-conscious revolutionary vanguard in the United States. The court documents indicate that many leading Muslim-American organizations – including the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the Muslim American Society – are an integral part of the Brotherhood's efforts to wage jihad against America by nonviolent means.

The Muslim Brotherhood is an affiliation of at least 70 Islamist organizations around the world, all tracing their heritage to the original cell, founded in Egypt in 1928. Its credo: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Quran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Sayyid Qutb, hanged by the Egyptian government in 1966 as a revolutionary, remains its ideological godfather. His best-known work, Milestones, calls for Muslims to wage violent holy war until Islamic law governs the entire world.

According to a 2004 Chicago Tribune investigation, establishing the Brotherhood in the United States has been a 40-year project that has worked mostly underground – even beneath the notice of many Muslims. Richard Clarke, the former top U.S. national security official, told the Senate in 2003 that the Muslim Brotherhood is the common thread linking terrorist fundraising schemes in the United States – which likely explains why so many mainstream American Muslim organizations were named by the feds as "unindicted co-conspirators" in the HLF trial.

Is this just alarmist paranoia? Not at all.

This matters because high-profile organizations with roots explicitly in the Muslim Brotherhood have successfully established themselves in a paramount position to define Islam in America according to a radical politicized model. And they've done so without the American public having the slightest idea about their real agenda. Indeed, the Bush administration is unwittingly helping the Islamist cause by including their leaders in public events, thus conferring them legitimacy. On Labor Day weekend, the same Department of Justice that's presenting evidence of the ISNA's involvement with radical Islam at the Dallas trial sponsored a booth at – wait for it – ISNA's national convention in suburban Chicago.

Look, no rational person believes America is going to exchange the Constitution for a caliphate. Rational people aren't the point. As the London subway bombings showed, even a tiny cell of committed radicals can kill a lot of people. Mustafa Saied, an American Muslim who left the Brotherhood, told the Tribune that he worried about the radicalism the Brotherhood inculcated in its membership here. "With the extreme element," he said, "you never know when that ticking time bomb will go off."

As long as they commit no crimes, CAIR, ISNA and the other Brotherhood-related groups have the right to advocate for their beliefs. But they don't have the right to escape critical scrutiny, and they deserve informed opposition. Courageous Muslims like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy are sounding the alarm about radical Islam's stealth takeover of U.S. Muslim institutions. Why are the news media ignoring this? Fear of being called Islamophobic?

This has got to stop. Six years after 9/11, we're still asleep. Islamic radicals have declared war on us – and some are fighting here in what looks like a fifth column. Read their strategy document. It's there in black and white, for those with eyes to see.

NateR
04-08-2010, 07:46 PM
....many people on this board are just hating to hate (in response to their hatred), no religion needed.

That's you ignorant and closed-minded opinion. If you are really so stupid that you can't distinguish between anger, frustration and hatred, then I see no point in continuing to waste time discussing anything with you.

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 08:00 PM
That's you ignorant and closed-minded opinion. If you are really so stupid that you can't distinguish between anger, frustration and hatred, then I see no point in continuing to waste time discussing anything with you.
Then don't. And you really should slow down with the personal insults......don't be so stupid as to rush to judgement because I have different opinions than you. It seems as if you can't see two sides of things Nate, and that's puzzling and it's closed-minded!

What are you not distinguishing the differences of?

Are blacks just in being angry at whites after something that happened 400 years ago? No. Because I make that analogy doesn't mean that I defend racism in America (or anywhere for that matter).

Again, DO NOT GET ME WRONG! I am frustrated and angered at the situation too......but I don't discriminate against EVERYONE that's Muslim (born into it or converted) because of my frustration.

Later.

mscomc
04-08-2010, 08:06 PM
http://earthhopenetwork.net/obama_bowing_to_saudi_king.jpg

Listen, we could trade pictures all day. My point is, we should not be making it easier for Saudis to enter this country.

I think its a little late for that, and there is about 1 trillion reaons why :wink: Just messing around.

I have not read the exact specifics, but does he mean saudis that posses a certain skill? For example, my father is an engineer, and works for ferderally operated engineering firm. At his company, the government would sponsor saudi and other middle-eastern engineers to come work based on their extensive knoweldge in peteroleum engineering and other fuels. It is something like that?

Miss Foxy
04-08-2010, 08:26 PM
Gosh you guys are making me sad all this fighting. :sad:

rearnakedchoke
04-08-2010, 08:36 PM
That's you ignorant and closed-minded opinion. If you are really so stupid that you can't distinguish between anger, frustration and hatred, then I see no point in continuing to waste time discussing anything with you.

by stating that the only thing muslims have contributed is terror, barbarism and murder, well, it's not exactly showing love .. LOL ... when you take out your frustrations and anger on an entire group of people, what else do you call it?

rearnakedchoke
04-08-2010, 08:37 PM
Gosh you guys are making me sad all this fighting. :sad:

i agree with foxy .. can't we all just get along ...

billwilliams70
04-08-2010, 08:38 PM
by stating that the only thing muslims have contributed is terror, barbarism and murder, well, it's not exactly showing love .. LOL ... when you take out your frustrations and anger on an entire group of people, what else do you call it?
I think it's closed-minded and ignorant, what do I know......I'm stupid.

Later.

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 09:02 PM
How do we know which group is good and bad when they hate Americans?

Play The Man
04-08-2010, 09:04 PM
I think its a little late for that, and there is about 1 trillion reaons why :wink: Just messing around.

I have not read the exact specifics, but does he mean saudis that posses a certain skill? For example, my father is an engineer, and works for ferderally operated engineering firm. At his company, the government would sponsor saudi and other middle-eastern engineers to come work based on their extensive knoweldge in peteroleum engineering and other fuels. It is something like that?

The article lacks specifics. Perhaps I am reading in between the lines but it seems he is talking about travel visas for people making repeated business-related trips.

Please remember that Mohamed Atta was also an engineer and also made repeated business trips (granted he was Egyptian and not Saudi, and he was a civil engineer rather than a petroleum engineer). A potential terrorist is not going to put "terrorist" down as occupation on their visa application. Al-Qaeda frequently uses college-educated professionals as terrorists. Saudis should not get "short-cut" visas. All Saudis should be heavily scrutinized, whatever their occupation.

Black Mamba
04-08-2010, 09:56 PM
I agree with the latter (PTM), yes Saudis shouldn't get a "short cut" visa, but I have an issue with singling out a single race/religion/a part of a country where someone is from. AND DON'T EVEN SLING THE LIBERAL LOVING BS WITH ME EITHER. :angry: That's not my point.

My point is terrorists come from all over the place. Not just from the Middle East. The entire Visa process needs to be revamped. People need to be probed harder and deeper before allowing access to the US. I don't care where you are from, what religion you practice...you want a Visa to the US, be prepared to be probed inside and out. Sad part is, that costs money.

donaldbreland
04-08-2010, 11:31 PM
I agree with the latter (PTM), yes Saudis shouldn't get a "short cut" visa, but I have an issue with singling out a single race/religion/a part of a country where someone is from. AND DON'T EVEN SLING THE LIBERAL LOVING BS WITH ME EITHER. :angry: That's not my point.

My point is terrorists come from all over the place. Not just from the Middle East. The entire Visa process needs to be revamped. People need to be probed harder and deeper before allowing access to the US. I don't care where you are from, what religion you practice...you want a Visa to the US, be prepared to be probed inside and out. Sad part is, that costs money.

If we were not at war with them then I would agree. I think we should single them out until the war is over. If we were fighting England or Mexico I would feel the same way. I do not want to hate them but right now I know who's side I am on and until this war is over I will never try and defend them.

Buzzard
04-09-2010, 01:54 AM
Some home grown American terrorists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/29/AR2010032901541.html

Bonnie
04-09-2010, 03:09 AM
I agree with the latter (PTM), yes Saudis shouldn't get a "short cut" visa, but I have an issue with singling out a single race/religion/a part of a country where someone is from. AND DON'T EVEN SLING THE LIBERAL LOVING BS WITH ME EITHER. :angry: That's not my point.

My point is terrorists come from all over the place. Not just from the Middle East. The entire Visa process needs to be revamped. People need to be probed harder and deeper before allowing access to the US. I don't care where you are from, what religion you practice...you want a Visa to the US, be prepared to be probed inside and out. Sad part is, that costs money.

No one should get a "short-cut"; we should know who's entering our country and we should know where they are once they are here. From what I understand, a big problem is our government can't seem to keep track of these people once they are here. Their visa may be expired (which I believe was the case with some of the 9/11 bunch), but we can't "locate" them to send them home.

Unfortunately, for the most part, it is our fear that drives us to "lump" people together. You have Muslims at one end of the spectrum who say peace is what Islam teaches, then you have Muslims at the other end, radical Islamists that are committed to wiping us off the face of the earth. It would be nice to be able to distinguish between the two and not let our knee-jerk reactions color them as the same. When we were attacked at Pearl Harbor, our fear and mistrust lead to the encampment of anyone who looked Japanese. It didn't matter that they were born American and had never set foot in Japan.

I'm not saying it's right or fair; I'm just saying it's hard to know sometimes who is friend and who is foe. Fear and reason rarely go together.

Neezar
04-09-2010, 03:10 AM
The entire 18-page platform outlines a plan for the long haul. It prescribes the Muslim Brotherhood's comprehensive plan to set down roots in civil society. It begins by both founding and taking control of American Muslim organizations, for the sake of unifying and educating the U.S. Muslim community – this to prepare it for the establishment of a global Islamic state governed by sharia.

Look, no rational person believes America is going to exchange the Constitution for a caliphate. Rational people aren't the point. As the London subway bombings showed, even a tiny cell of committed radicals can kill a lot of people. Mustafa Saied, an American Muslim who left the Brotherhood, told the Tribune that he worried about the radicalism the Brotherhood inculcated in its membership here. "With the extreme element," he said, "you never know when that ticking time bomb will go off."

..............

As long as they commit no crimes, CAIR, ISNA and the other Brotherhood-related groups have the right to advocate for their beliefs. But they don't have the right to escape critical scrutiny, and they deserve informed opposition. Courageous Muslims like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy are sounding the alarm about radical Islam's stealth takeover of U.S. Muslim institutions. Why are the news media ignoring this? Fear of being called Islamophobic?

This has got to stop. Six years after 9/11, we're still asleep. Islamic radicals have declared war on us – and some are fighting here in what looks like a fifth column. Read their strategy document. It's there in black and white, for those with eyes to see.


I believe this is the truth.

Vizion
04-09-2010, 03:23 AM
Some home grown American terrorists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/29/AR2010032901541.html
Why do always have to point out the "other side", as if we are SOLELY blaming Muslims for ALL terror :rolleyes:

Are American militia members responsible for as much terrorism as Muslims worldwide?

J.B.
04-09-2010, 05:11 AM
Gosh you guys are making me sad all this fighting. :sad:

This will cheer you up! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

Buzzard
04-09-2010, 05:12 AM
Why do always have to point out the "other side", as if we are SOLELY blaming Muslims for ALL terror :rolleyes:

That's pretty much all I ever see on this forum when it comes to bashing beliefs. Just want to keep it "fair and balanced". At least it produces fodder for debate.

Are American militia members responsible for as much terrorism as Muslims worldwide?

You are comparing a select group of one race of people to a religion practiced globally or semi-globally. While I don't think it a correct comparison, I'll answer "no" just so you can't accuse me of not answering your question. Either way, a terrorist is a terrorist whether they are Muslim, Christian, or of any other belief or non-belief.

J.B.
04-09-2010, 05:20 AM
Why do always have to point out the "other side", as if we are SOLELY blaming Muslims for ALL terror :rolleyes:


Exactly, it's as if some people think that just because you make an argument that points out the negatives of the side you are arguing against that you are ignoring the negative parts or happenings of the side you support.

mscomc
04-09-2010, 05:29 AM
That's pretty much all I ever see on this forum when it comes to bashing beliefs. Just want to keep it "fair and balanced". At least it produces fodder for debate.

You are comparing a select group of one race of people to a religion practiced globally or semi-globally. While I don't think it a correct comparison, I'll answer "no" just so you can't accuse me of not answering your question. Either way, a terrorist is a terrorist whether they are Muslim, Christian, or of any other belief or non-belief.

Just as a follow up, I also agree that is not a fair comparison. First, you are comparing a group of people in 1 country (the U.S) to a relgion of people (1.5 billion world wide)...mathematically that cant make sense. Second, if you look at the last, say....10 years, of course there will be a surge in radical islamic violence and terrorism! There is a war going on right now. In times of war numbers are always highe and outrageous. Right now, allied countries (US, Canada, Britain etc) are occupying countries, where people do not like them(for various reasons). You expect them to just sit on their hands and do nothing? If I came into your home and said, "Vizion, Im taking point here"...what would you say or do to me? Anyway I am getting off topic.

The following is not to provoke anger, but just some thought. This is NOT AN ATTACK, please do not take it that way. But I have to say, I cannot tell you how many friends/colleagues of mine who came from the US did not know of these groups, and I was quite shocked myself.

Here are christian-militia groups classified by the FBI as having/engaged in: Killing cops, military members, preists/chaplains, minorities, blacks, abortion doctors, people who have had abortions, jews, muslims, liberals, other religons etc etc... Look each group to see what crimes theys did.

1) Army of God (USA)

2) Hutaree

3) Aryan Nations

4) Aryan Republican Army

5) Phineas Priesthood

6) The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord

7) KKK

8) Posse Comitatus

9) The Order (group)

10 ) Church of Jesus Christ–Christian

------ There are many more, so I think you get the picture.

I have also heard reports from that there is a large influx immigrants coming to the states to hide or whatever who belong to groups like: Orange Volunteers , Lord's Resistance Army ....I think this is a bit of a stetch, but look it up for yourself.

mscomc
04-09-2010, 05:31 AM
Exactly, it's as if some people think that just because you make an argument that points out the negatives of the side you are arguing against that you are ignoring the negative parts or happenings of the side you support.

I hope I have not come across that way. If I have, and angered someone, I am sorry.:wink:

J.B.
04-09-2010, 05:35 AM
I hope I have not come across that way. If I have, and angered someone, I am sorry.:wink:

Not to me, at least not that I can ever remember, and certainly not in this thread.

I was talking about Buzzard, I should have just said that in the first place since I'm sure he knew it. :)

mscomc
04-09-2010, 05:45 AM
Why do always have to point out the "other side", as if we are SOLELY blaming Muslims for ALL terror :rolleyes:

Are American militia members responsible for as much terrorism as Muslims worldwide?

I honestly do not know the answer. So I wont speculate.

But in some food for thought (thats all it is, its not an attack, please dont take it that way).

Here is what the greatest mass murderer probably in the history of the world once said in 1942, "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

It actually is a beautiful statement, and I mean that. You know who said that?? (SCROLL DOWN)






















ADOLF HITLER

Sources: Hitler, Adolf; Norman Hepburn Baynes (1942), The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 – August 1939, London: Oxford University Press

Hitler, Adolf; Raoul Jean Jacques Francois De Roussy De Sales, ed (1973), My New Order, Octagon Books

Ok, now I know what you are probably thinking....This guy was NOT a christian. Well it appears he certainly thought he was. Whats my point? Anyone can take any religon and radicalize it. Anyway, just my oppinion. Have a good night!

flo
04-09-2010, 06:34 AM
Mao and Stalin left Hitler in the dust when it came to mass murder. I believe they were both atheists.

flo
04-09-2010, 06:36 AM
Why do always have to point out the "other side", as if we are SOLELY blaming Muslims for ALL terror :rolleyes:

Are American militia members responsible for as much terrorism as Muslims worldwide?

Great point, Vizion.

flo
04-09-2010, 06:41 AM
This will cheer you up! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

I guess that was cheery. :laugh::laugh:

Here's one that'll REALLY cheer y'all up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bmhjf0rKe8

mscomc
04-09-2010, 06:49 AM
Mao and Stalin left Hitler in the dust when it came to mass murder. I believe they were both atheists.

Hmmm, you raise an interesting point. Do you have any stats showing that? (im not being a wisea$$, i really am curious)

I mean if what you say is true and he was one, if not the greatest mass murderer, then he may have posed the greatest threat to christianity in the last 100 years.

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, and also a terror campaign against religious believers.

Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution. Many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938"


Sources:

1) Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Anti-Religious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin’s Press, New York (1988) pg 89

2) Alexander N. Yakovlev (2002). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. pp. 165.

mscomc
04-09-2010, 06:50 AM
I guess that was cheery. :laugh::laugh:

Here's one that'll REALLY cheer y'all up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bmhjf0rKe8

LOL, nah. This video is the best, its the most viewed video on youtube (176 million)

I am sure you have all seen it, but.....its really funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OBlgSz8sSM :laugh:

J.B.
04-09-2010, 06:51 AM
I guess that was cheery. :laugh::laugh:

Here's one that'll REALLY cheer y'all up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bmhjf0rKe8

I got you beat....hands down :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA-tOsM6F4Y

:laugh:

mscomc
04-09-2010, 06:54 AM
I got you beat....hands down :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA-tOsM6F4Y

:laugh:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I have no idea what just happened, but it was funny.:frantics:

J.B.
04-09-2010, 06:59 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I have no idea what just happened, but it was funny.:frantics:

at 1:54, I literally can't stop laughing...

flo
04-09-2010, 07:07 AM
Hmmm, you raise an interesting point. Do you have any stats showing that? (im not being a wisea$$, i really am curious)



I have posted previously here on the forum with the numbers. I am too tired to look (and too much of a techno-eejit to even know how to search for my comments) but it wasn't very long ago.


LOL, I've seen both of those, you guys, but they are hilarious!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I guess I'm partial to cuteoverload and lolcats, what can I say? :wink:

Good night, guys.

Play The Man
04-09-2010, 07:13 AM
Hmmm, you raise an interesting point. Do you have any stats showing that? (im not being a wisea$$, i really am curious)

I mean if what you say is true and he was one, if not the greatest mass murderer, then he may have posed the greatest threat to christianity in the last 100 years.

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, and also a terror campaign against religious believers.

Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution. Many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938"


Sources:

1) Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Anti-Religious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin’s Press, New York (1988) pg 89

2) Alexander N. Yakovlev (2002). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. pp. 165.

The Black Book of Communism gives the following "rough approximation, based on unofficial estimates":

U.S.S.R. 20 million deaths

China 65 million deaths

Vietnam 1 million deaths

North Korea 2 million deaths

Cambodia 2 million deaths

Eastern Europe 1 million deaths

Latin America 150,000 deaths

Africa 1.7 million deaths

Afghanistan 1.5 million deaths

The international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power:
about 10,00 deaths

The total approaches 100 million people killed.

mscomc
04-09-2010, 07:18 AM
That is just un-real. Very sad :sad:

J.B.
04-09-2010, 07:20 AM
I have posted previously here on the forum with the numbers. I am too tired to look (and too much of a techno-eejit to even know how to search for my comments) but it wasn't very long ago.


LOL, I've seen both of those, you guys, but they are hilarious!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I guess I'm partial to cuteoverload and lolcats, what can I say? :wink:

Good night, guys.

Lolcats is lulz

Caturday comes in 24 hours....for those that are privy to stupid 4chan memes :happydancing:

Sometimes I feel like I know too much about the internet...:laugh:

Buzzard
04-09-2010, 10:45 AM
I got you beat....hands down :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA-tOsM6F4Y

:laugh:

I just saw that two days ago. Guy has got some pipes.

Dethbob
04-09-2010, 01:34 PM
Ok, now I know what you are probably thinking....This guy was NOT a christian. Well it appears he certainly thought he was.

You shouldn’t believe everything evil dictators tell you!

He was a cynical manipulator who said whatever he needed to to accomplish his ends.

The fact that he claimed to be a Christian is a mark against him, not Christianity.

Vizion
04-09-2010, 02:00 PM
You are comparing a select group of one race of people to a religion practiced globally or semi-globally. While I don't think it a correct comparison, I'll answer "no" just so you can't accuse me of not answering your question. Either way, a terrorist is a terrorist whether they are Muslim, Christian, or of any other belief or non-belief.
So you're being "fair & balanced" then? Doesn't sound fair OR balanced. Every single DAY Muslims KILL people, MURDER people by the hundreds, if not by the THOUSANDS.

One ISOLATED INCIDENT in America with a group of crazies, and you feel like your comparison is "fair & balanced"?

You don't need to point out the obvious Buzzard, we all know there are a-holes who kill innocents.

Who is the REAL threat?

A. Muslims whose EXPANSION is cultivating terror WORLDWIDE resulting in anarchy, destruction and chaos?

Or

B. the "occasional" domesticated terrorist who create isolated incidents that sew FAR less calamity?

billwilliams70
04-09-2010, 02:53 PM
Look, everyone's entitled to thier own opinions and it's really disheartening that there's people on this board, that claim to be Christians, tossing out insults left and right because they hold a different point of view. Saying someone is stupid, closed-minded, and ignorant because they believe diffently than you is closed-minded and ignorant.....if you ask me.

Diversity abounds, that's what (regardless of what principles this country was REALLY founded upon) makes the United States so great. However, this board has members from many countries and from all walks of life.

Again, my stance on the topic/discussion of this thread is:

o President Obama should have done a little more research into what he was talking about.
o I agree that there has been a MASSIVE amount of terrorism attributed to those that practice the Muslim faith.
o I don't believe in lumping ALL Muslim's with those Muslims that align themselves with violent organizations.
o I don't feel any race, religious background, nationality should have a "short-cut" in obtaining legal documentation to be in this country.....regardless of thier education level.

Does that make me stupid? Does that make me closed-minded? Does that make me ignorant?

Later.

Dethbob
04-09-2010, 03:12 PM
Islam is an ideological and political system whose stated goal is world domination and the elimination of dissenting thought, and whose primary instrument is the shedding of innocent blood.

Such a system should not be given a pass because it is also a religion, because it is associated with a particular race, or because many of its adherents seem to be good people.

Hating nazism is not made racist by the fact that most nazis are white, nor is it made unfair by the fact that many nazis love their kids.

Vizion
04-09-2010, 03:36 PM
nm

Miss Foxy
04-09-2010, 03:38 PM
Look, everyone's entitled to thier own opinions and it's really disheartening that there's people on this board, that claim to be Christians, tossing out insults left and right because they hold a different point of view. Saying someone is stupid, closed-minded, and ignorant because they believe diffently than you is closed-minded and ignorant.....if you ask me.

Diversity abounds, that's what (regardless of what principles this country was REALLY founded upon) makes the United States so great. However, this board has members from many countries and from all walks of life.

Again, my stance on the topic/discussion of this thread is:

o President Obama should have done a little more research into what he was talking about.
o I agree that there has been a MASSIVE amount of terrorism attributed to those that practice the Muslim faith.
o I don't believe in lumping ALL Muslim's with those Muslims that align themselves with violent organizations.
o I don't feel any race, religious background, nationality should have a "short-cut" in obtaining legal documentation to be in this country.....regardless of thier education level.

Does that make me stupid? Does that make me closed-minded? Does that make me ignorant?

Later.I agree with your post. Sometimes it takes reading how close minded we can be to realize we need to open our eyes a little more.
Thanks,:wink:

Vizion
04-09-2010, 03:43 PM
Look, everyone's entitled to thier own opinions and it's really disheartening that there's people on this board, that claim to be Christians, tossing out insults left and right because they hold a different point of view. Saying someone is stupid, closed-minded, and ignorant because they believe diffently than you is closed-minded and ignorant.....if you ask me.

Rather than making a sweeping inference to board members, why don't you make a list like Buzzard would? You could always post it tomorrow :laugh:

Miss Foxy
04-09-2010, 03:44 PM
Rather than making a sweeping inference to board members, why don't you make a list like Buzzard would? You could always post it tomorrow :laugh:
Why don't you stop trying to stir the pot...

Vizion
04-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Why don't you stop trying to stir the pot...
Stirring what pot?

billwilliams70
04-09-2010, 04:01 PM
I agree with your post. Sometimes it takes reading how close minded we can be to realize we need to open our eyes a little more.
Thanks,:wink:
You're welcome :wink: & thank you.

Miss Foxy
04-09-2010, 04:14 PM
:ninja:Stirring what pot?

Tyburn
04-09-2010, 04:52 PM
I honestly do not know the answer. So I wont speculate.

But in some food for thought (thats all it is, its not an attack, please dont take it that way).

Here is what the greatest mass murderer probably in the history of the world once said in 1942, "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

It actually is a beautiful statement, and I mean that. You know who said that?? (SCROLL DOWN)






















ADOLF HITLER

Sources: Hitler, Adolf; Norman Hepburn Baynes (1942), The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 – August 1939, London: Oxford University Press

Hitler, Adolf; Raoul Jean Jacques Francois De Roussy De Sales, ed (1973), My New Order, Octagon Books

Ok, now I know what you are probably thinking....This guy was NOT a christian. Well it appears he certainly thought he was. Whats my point? Anyone can take any religon and radicalize it. Anyway, just my oppinion. Have a good night!

Adolf Had a nasty habit of reading something and trying to practise it out...but changing its core.

I'll give you three examples. Firstly, No Christian would kill Jews out of revenge for killing Christ. Why not? Because Christs death is what allows Christians to be saved, and the Jews were kinda conned into it, by Christ being deliberately vague and deliberately telling people and spirits NOT to give away his true identity...why? because the purpose was to get himself killed.

But if you just briefly read and didnt understand, then I suppose you might think how rude of the Jews to kill their Messiah.

The Second Example was the alligations that Adolf subscribed to Communism :laugh: Adolf didnt subscribe to it at all, but when his party won the ellection he had a problem, his party didnt win by a big enough majority to take full control without combining in a coillision government. The Nazi movement adopted Socialism, briefly, under Adolf after he became Chancellor but before he became a single dictator...why? because of something called the SA. The SA were Communists basically. They did exactly as Hitler ordered...until they got to big to control...then Hitler turned on them, litterally.

...and Finally, the alligation that Adolf Hitler used Frederich Nietzsches philosophies of the Ubermensch. Well, he read Nietzsche, but its a daftly poor interpretation. Frederichs ideology is individualistic, so forget about a "race" and secondly, whilst Nietzsche supports that everyone should do all they can to have their becoming...he doesnt exactly specify what that becoming is...and he says that it should be persued to the extent that it doesnt stop someone else from becoming.

It boils down to, and this is quite simplistic, that everyone should do all they can to individually reach their own potential, thus becoming, essentially, being all that they can be, a Super human, or beyond human, so long as it doesnt stop anyone else from doing that.

Adolf interpreted that to mean, that Germans were a master-race :blink: He was either as thick as too short planks, or else he knew what he was doing and was "using" Nietzsche, in exactly the same way he used the SA...to gain power, to be an inspiring ideological speaker...and once he had that...he didnt really care.

The other thing is that Fredrich Nietzsche is one of the biggest Iconoclasts of all time. You cant claim to be a Christian, and completely adopt all his philosophies...when his central one is athiesm :laugh:

Nietzsche as a philosopher, and Richard Wagner the German Composer played off one another...its said that Richard Wagners music is like Nietzschean Philosophy in sound. Interestingly, Adolf Hitler also loved Wagner, and he played "Seigfrieds Funeral March" at the funneral of one of his favourite generals who was assassinated in the Check Republic, that same piece, which you can hear below, has a motif thats used by Hans Zimmer in Gladiator Sound Track...I suppose its not suprising that Zimmer is influenced musically by a native peer.

listen to it...and dont forget to tell me what you think :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8wHteSOwW4

Fredrich Nietzsche died of clinical maddness....says a great deal about his philosophies doesnt it...even though I think Hitler deliberately made a poor interpretation...Nietzsche over all is quite dangerous to the untrained mind...the only thing I aggree with him on is Power Discourse...I think he calls it "will to power" :ninja:

Tyburn
04-09-2010, 05:13 PM
I just checked...it IS in Will to Power. :) Ubermensch is in Thus Spake Zarathustra, and his Iconoclasm is in The Antichrist, Twilight of The Idols, and Beyond Good and Evil :laugh:

My dissertations tutor was nutty about him...its why I know so much about this bizzare philosopher :unsure-1:

He's actually a post-modernist in the wrong Historic era...people often class him as an Enlightenment Philosopher because of his iconoclasm...but thats kinda a mistake because whilst the Enlightenment philosophers do marginalize GOD...they dont actually dispose of him all together. Nietzsche does...the "becoming" ideal is kinda like a focus purely on yourself, and its the contrast he uses against Religion...so he is suggesting the person should be the focus...ironically, Christians recognise that as a form of idolitry which would void Fredrichs own argument of Twilight of the Idols...they would say that shifting the emphasis to oneselve is no less idolitry then living for anything unchristian...its all the same shyte to the Christian, selfless, or selfish is equally abhorent if its not centred around Christ...a point that I think Fredrich doesnt counter because he doesnt actually understand Christianity in the first place :laugh:

Anyway...so whilst I wouldnt advise anyone to read Nietzsche...unless they actually had to...I would say a less offensive, (if you ignore his background and just concentrate on what he says) and a less dangerous route would be to read Michel Foucault (try saying his surname with a straight face) instead, because all his works like Will to Knowledge from Discipline and Punish and The History of Sexuality...they are just further thoughts on Nietzschean "becoming" and power discourse. Truth be told...I cant remember which Philosopher actually said exactly which part of what I believe and talk about actually a great deal on this Forum LOL

Neezar
04-09-2010, 06:47 PM
Look, everyone's entitled to thier own opinions and it's really disheartening that there's people on this board, that claim to be Christians, tossing out insults left and right because they hold a different point of view. Saying someone is stupid, closed-minded, and ignorant because they believe diffently than you is closed-minded and ignorant.....if you ask me.



Bill, you did as much or more name calling than anyone else in this thread.


Diversity abounds, that's what (regardless of what principles this country was REALLY founded upon) makes the United States so great. However, this board has members from many countries and from all walks of life.

Again, my stance on the topic/discussion of this thread is:

o President Obama should have done a little more research into what he was talking about.
o I agree that there has been a MASSIVE amount of terrorism attributed to those that practice the Muslim faith.
o I don't believe in lumping ALL Muslim's with those Muslims that align themselves with violent organizations.
o I don't feel any race, religious background, nationality should have a "short-cut" in obtaining legal documentation to be in this country.....regardless of thier education level.

Later.

Good for you. But it still has nothing to do with what muslims have contributed to American history or our culture. :tongue0011:

:laugh:

flo
04-09-2010, 06:53 PM
Lolcats is lulz

Caturday comes in 24 hours....for those that are privy to stupid 4chan memes :happydancing:

Sometimes I feel like I know too much about the internet...:laugh:

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6428/worka.jpg

:laugh:

Vizion
04-09-2010, 07:12 PM
Bill, you sanctimoniously call out people who you deem to be close-minded and ignorant because they call others out. Then you call them out by calling them close-minded and ignorant.

Rather two-faced would you call that? :wink: