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AMJ
03-25-2010, 11:02 PM
SAN ANTONIO — The soldiers in standard-issue fatigues and combat boots stood side-by-side repeating their creed: "I am an American soldier. I am a warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army values ...."

Capt. Tejdeep Singh Rattan was no different except that he wore a full beard and black turban, the first Sikh in a generation allowed to complete U.S. Army basic officer training without sacrificing the articles of his faith. He completed the nine-week training Monday after Army officials made an exemption to a policy that has effectively prevented Sikhs from enlisting since 1984.

"I'm feeling very humbled. I'm a soldier," said the 31-year-old dentist, smiling after the ceremony at Fort Sam Houston. "This has been my dream."

Rattan had to get a waiver from the Army to serve without sacrificing the unshorn hair mandated by his faith. An immigrant from India who arrived in New York as a teenager, Rattan said he hopes his military commitment will allow him to give back to his adopted home country and will help diminish prejudice Sikhs sometimes face in the U.S.

Rattan — who received a master's degree in engineering before pursuing a dental education which are in high demand in an Army stretched by wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Rattan said he encountered no trouble from fellow soldiers during training.

"The Army is all about what you have to offer. If you're sitting back there, not doing anything, they're definitely going to talk about you. But if you're up there running with them, you have good scores, you run neck-and-neck with them, they love you," he said. "I made a lot of friends."

1st Sgt. Jeffrey DeGarmo said he made sure the officers-in-training in his unit understood that Rattan wasn't a foreign national and had received the Army's permission to maintain his beard and turban. Once the other soldiers understood that, there were no issues, he said.



This seems fairly interesting, do you guys find this to be positive or negative for the United States millitary? Picture can be seen below.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/media/ALeqM5iWZyhxcIaOuNbEIxSh53VhIk5sbw?size=l

Max
03-25-2010, 11:37 PM
i think it is a pos for the US and i see no issue with it.

NateR
03-26-2010, 02:13 AM
i think it is a pos for the US and i see no issue with it.

Except when he needs to clear and seal his gas mask, which is impossible to do on an unshaven face. :rolleyes:

surveyorshawn
03-26-2010, 03:13 AM
Except when he needs to clear and seal his gas mask, which is impossible to do on an unshaven face. :rolleyes:

Lol, I didn't think about that! We had to go through the gas chamber in boot camp. I wonder how that worked out for him....:laugh:

Chuck
03-26-2010, 03:18 AM
I don't like it. Can't really justify my opinion with any facts... just doesn't seem right to me.

I'm am craving a Slurpee for some reason though... :laugh:

AMJ
03-26-2010, 03:36 AM
Except when he needs to clear and seal his gas mask, which is impossible to do on an unshaven face. :rolleyes:

Apparently, the 2 reasons why they were not permitting him to join was because of the gas mask issue and helmet issue as well. However, both were resolved based on utilizing different equipment I believe. That's why they ultimately decided he should be given the opportunity to serve.


But, I think it's good that immigrants are willing to give back and serve the United States, these actions should be encouraged in my opinion. Why deny someone with the skills and ability to help this country overseas, right?

Whatcha think, Nate?

AMJ
03-26-2010, 03:41 AM
I don't like it. Can't really justify my opinion with any facts... just doesn't seem right to me.

I'm am craving a Slurpee for some reason though... :laugh:

Hmm, I can see what you're saying because of that shooting massacre at Fort Hood. We do need to be careful about terrorist sympathyizers joing the armed forces who have evil intentions.

But, we're talking about 2 different religions so that wouldn't really apply.

Llamafighter
03-26-2010, 03:46 AM
Good point Nate.
as far as Sikh's go, when we first moved to NYC I worked apartment construction alongside a team of these guys and they were awesome. I would go into battle next to them.

rearnakedchoke
03-26-2010, 12:14 PM
the safety issue is always first imo ... but since there are other adequate safety measures, i think this is great ...

here at work, we can't tell people to shave their beards, religious or not ... because there are alternative safety measures, so we just give them those masks ... they are more of a pain in the ass if you ask me, but they are wearing them, not me ...

rearnakedchoke
03-26-2010, 12:15 PM
I don't like it. Can't really justify my opinion with any facts... just doesn't seem right to me.

I'm am craving a Slurpee for some reason though... :laugh:

dude, what's up with that??? slurpee is a trademark ... you need to say squishee as it is a fictional drink ...

Spiritwalker
03-26-2010, 12:34 PM
something is right with this.. and soemthing is wrong.. I don't know exactly what yet.

I am all for individualism... "Don't be like everyone else".. "Have an opinion, even if it's not the popular one".. I had 2 different set of converse high tops when I was a kid... A red set and a black set.. and sometimes I would wear one of each.. "just cause"...

But when you join the military you are stepping up to something Greater than yourself... and to be "part of a team".. where your LIFE can REALLY depend on the person next to you... I don't know that "I" should have any real meaning.

Granted.. I didn't serve.. (sometimes I still regret it)... so I don't have cause to complain I guess...

But if you KNOW going in.. what the standards and pratices are.. then you should be willing to obide by those standards and pratices... Military, Schools, Religion whatever..

Vizion
03-26-2010, 12:45 PM
Seriously...what NOW should the US military accomodate?

There will be more and more cases for "freedom" like this...it WILL deteriorate the military.

Either s**t or get off the pot. This isn't about freedoms you enjoy as a citizen, its about service to your COUNTRY.

Dethbob
03-26-2010, 01:12 PM
I donít know anything about the Sikh religion, but Iíve worked with some of these guys and they seem to have all their stuff in one sock, and I can see bending the rules a little to let good guys on the team.

One problem is that sooner or later someone will demand their Ďrightí to go through basic wearing a burkha.

County Mike
03-26-2010, 01:28 PM
From what I've seen in the Star Wars movies, you can't trust them.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x49/suzette74/SithLord.jpg

rearnakedchoke
03-26-2010, 01:59 PM
again, as this is a US thing, i am not sure what the rules are ... but if he is free to choose his religion, and he is able to do the job, i don't see the big deal .... it doesn't say anywhere that you can choose your religion but have to look like everyone else ... if the turban and beard aren't going to interfere with his performance, than it is fine ....

NateR
03-26-2010, 02:09 PM
it doesn't say anywhere that you can choose your religion but have to look like everyone else ..

Well, actually it does say that if you join the US Army. :laugh: That's the definition of the word "uniform." When you join the military you are giving up your individuality for the sake of the whole.

Of course, that's the ideal, but not always the reality for an all-volunteer military. If this man was drafted, then the only person who would even listen to his desire to keep his religious identity would be the barber... while he was shaving every bit of hair off of his face. :laugh:

Soooo, this raises other questions. What about rastafarians? Their dreadlocks are part of their faith, so if this guy can serve while violating the Army's uniform standards, then why can they keep their dreadlocks?

It just doesn't make any sense. The military exists for a purpose and their effectiveness in serving that purpose is severely weakened if we try to make them an Equal Opportunity Employer.

rearnakedchoke
03-26-2010, 02:19 PM
i am actually going to change my mind on this ... i just read the rules of male grooming and if he wants to be part of the army, he should have to shave his beard and cut his hair to a respectable length ... the rules were in place before he decided to enlist and he knew this .. so i will say that if he wants to be part of this, he must comply ... as the rules are stated, it doesn't seem that they are written or intended to discriminate, which is why i am changing my mind ..

Dethbob
03-26-2010, 03:05 PM
... as the rules are stated, it doesn't seem that they are written or intended to discriminate, which is why i am changing my mind ..

Good call. I remember once in basic looking into a mirror full of shaved heads, and for a moment being unable to tell which one was me, which I think was part of the point.

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 03:30 PM
I'm probably going to get criticized for this but you already know I am a man who isn't afraid to say how I feel. I think this is wrong and I can see whats actually happening here. I do not believe that any one who was not born in the United States should be allowed to join our military. How do we really know that they will be fighting for what we and our forefathers believe or believed in. How can at this point in time can we trust anyone except true United States citizens. I know some of you will call me a racist and that's fine. In a way I am a racist. I am a racist to anyone who tries to kill innocent Americans for no reason at all. We have already seen what happened at Fort Hood and our Government is still trying to let these fools in our Military. Do you even know why? Do you even know whats happening in front of your own face here in America? Are you still trying to deny the fact that this administration is trying it's best to ruin our Country? Our government is trying to tear our Country apart so we can become more like China and Russia. Listen to Rev Manning. He is crazy at time but the man makes very valid points. Look at Glenn Beck. Our media is making this man out to be a racist and a terrorist. Have you ever listened to his show? He is far from a racist and
is promoting that we fight this battle without violence. This Administration is trying there best to make the good guys look bad. Look at the Tea Party people. There is no violence at there rallies. Heck the only thing they are promoting is our rights as Americans. I'm not saying that we should hate immigrants because our forefathers were once immigrants as well. I am just saying that they should not be serving in our military. Especially the ones we are at War with. What we have going on in our Country is big right now. Do not try and overlook this administration. They are evil and want to tear our economy down so we as Americans will be vulnerable to attacks on us. They know we are much more Stronger then they are at this point but If our Government takes everything away from us then they will have the chance to defeat us. That's why I like people like Glenn Beck. He is trying to do the same thing Martin Luther King did. He is wanting our rights to be not taken away from us while promoting peace. In peace I mean by not telling his 11 million viewers and listeners daily to go out and buy a gun and fight for our rights. He wants us to make phone calls to our congress every day and get to know the person we vote for. DO NOT CHOOSE A PARTY AND PICK IT. Vote for the right candidate who believes in what our forefathers believed in. Pick someone who will listen to the American people. Please do not deny what is happening here. It is going on. This is just a case of it. This man should not be in our military and nothing good can come of this. NOTHING. This one man has opened the door to any to come in to our military and join our side and steal information for the other side to win. Catch us when we are at our weakest and kill more innocent Americans for the right of one. To me that is crazy. This wouldn't have happened in the 40's this wouldn't have happened in the 80's so why is it happening now. Please stand up and without violence help take our Country back. One way to do so is to show up at your local town meetings and voice your opinions about our government. Let them know that WE THE PEOPLE are the boss and if things don't go our way that they will not get re- elected. We have to do this by believing again that this Country is very worth it. We have to do this by demanding our Government bring back the draft and use it. The Military is a good thing. People have died for Us. How can you give their life back. You can't. The only thing you can do for them is to help make sure their families and their children are being taken care of. Fight for them in court and in town hall meetings. Please stand up and Help. I love this Country. I love this forum. I love my family and First and foremost I love my God.

rearnakedchoke
03-26-2010, 03:49 PM
I'm probably going to get criticized for this but you already know I am a man who isn't afraid to say how I feel. I think this is wrong and I can see whats actually happening here. I do not believe that any one who was not born in the United States should be allowed to join our military. How do we really know that they will be fighting for what we and our forefathers believe or believed in. How can at this point in time can we trust anyone except true United States citizens. I know some of you will call me a racist and that's fine. In a way I am a racist. I am a racist to anyone who tries to kill innocent Americans for no reason at all. We have already seen what happened at Fort Hood and our Government is still trying to let these fools in our Military. Do you even know why? Do you even know whats happening in front of your own face here in America? Are you still trying to deny the fact that this administration is trying it's best to ruin our Country? Our government is trying to tear our Country apart so we can become more like China and Russia. Listen to Rev Manning. He is crazy at time but the man makes very valid points. Look at Glenn Beck. Our media is making this man out to be a racist and a terrorist. Have you ever listened to his show? He is far from a racist and
is promoting that we fight this battle without violence. This Administration is trying there best to make the good guys look bad. Look at the Tea Party people. There is no violence at there rallies. Heck the only thing they are promoting is our rights as Americans. I'm not saying that we should hate immigrants because our forefathers were once immigrants as well. I am just saying that they should not be serving in our military. Especially the ones we are at War with. What we have going on in our Country is big right now. Do not try and overlook this administration. They are evil and want to tear our economy down so we as Americans will be vulnerable to attacks on us. They know we are much more Stronger then they are at this point but If our Government takes everything away from us then they will have the chance to defeat us. That's why I like people like Glenn Beck. He is trying to do the same thing Martin Luther King did. He is wanting our rights to be not taken away from us while promoting peace. In peace I mean by not telling his 11 million viewers and listeners daily to go out and buy a gun and fight for our rights. He wants us to make phone calls to our congress every day and get to know the person we vote for. DO NOT CHOOSE A PARTY AND PICK IT. Vote for the right candidate who believes in what our forefathers believed in. Pick someone who will listen to the American people. Please do not deny what is happening here. It is going on. This is just a case of it. This man should not be in our military and nothing good can come of this. NOTHING. This one man has opened the door to any to come in to our military and join our side and steal information for the other side to win. Catch us when we are at our weakest and kill more innocent Americans for the right of one. To me that is crazy. This wouldn't have happened in the 40's this wouldn't have happened in the 80's so why is it happening now. Please stand up and without violence help take our Country back. One way to do so is to show up at your local town meetings and voice your opinions about our government. Let them know that WE THE PEOPLE are the boss and if things don't go our way that they will not get re- elected. We have to do this by believing again that this Country is very worth it. We have to do this by demanding our Government bring back the draft and use it. The Military is a good thing. People have died for Us. How can you give their life back. You can't. The only thing you can do for them is to help make sure their families and their children are being taken care of. Fight for them in court and in town hall meetings. Please stand up and Help. I love this Country. I love this forum. I love my family and First and foremost I love my God.

i don't think anything you said is out of line, but this man could have very easily been born in the US .. there are plenty of first and second generation immigrants .... so by your theory, they would be allowed in the army ... i think there are people that are trying to hurt America, and infiltrating the military is a way to do that ... but to say that no visible minority can join the military is not a way to go, there has to be better screening processes, aptitude tests and background checks, just saying anyone with brown skin, nappy hair, towels on there head can't join is not the way to go

Llamafighter
03-26-2010, 03:57 PM
A lot of Sihks were terrorized after 9/11 in NY and around the area because they wear turbans and seemed to personify the middle east tand those who committed the acts of 9/11. In some cases Sihk men where jumped and had their hair cut which (as the article tells us) is a big part of their religion.

I think the soldiers attitude is admirable in wanting to repay his adoptive country, and by having a special skill like dentistry could benefit thousands of servicemen and women.
He'll probably get stationed at some base away from the action so the mask issue hopefully would not be an issue.

In this situation the Army made the decision, not congress so let him serve.

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 03:59 PM
At this point and time I do believe that no brown skin guy with a towel on his head should be in our military. We are fighting their kind right now. I do however believe that Mexicans should be fighting for us. They love this Country more than most Americans. I actually think a good way to Keep our Country strong would be to allow them to join the Military and if they make it out then they should have freedom in our Country. Now if we were at War with them then I think they should not be allowed to be in our Military. This is my point about Muslims right now. I didn't hate them before 9-11. I really don't hate them now. I just do not believe we should allow them to fight for our Country right now. It could actually do more harm then good. If we would have not had them in our military then the Fort Hood massacre would have never happened.

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 04:04 PM
I can bet you that this went past Army officials. I can bet that our Government had a say in this. I do not want to see our soldiers die because someone just blew someone up in a doctors office or at a Base some where. The fort hood massacre bothers me still. I want our Country safe and by Allowing someone to come in even if they looked like a terrorist is wrong. If he wants this bad enough then I say lose the towel and shave the beard. You want to be in our Army do what everyone else is doing and shave your head. Do not become one. BE ONE.

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 04:06 PM
Lama Fighter I see your quote is from Mark Twain. Do you think he would have been OK with the guy being in our military if he was here today. What about John Adams or even George Washington. That's the people we forget about.

Miss Foxy
03-26-2010, 04:16 PM
I think once your in the military you need to comply with the rules that were set in place. Regardless of religious, political, or personal beliefs.
I am not one to say if you werent born in the US you cannot serve. Many people serve the country with pride and have laid their lives down for the US so I don't agree with not allowing the right to enter the Armed Forces based on birthplace.
I don't see this man as a terrorist. Clearly he is not Arab..:laugh:

Miss Foxy
03-26-2010, 04:20 PM
I can bet you that this went past Army officials. I can bet that our Government had a say in this. I do not want to see our soldiers die because someone just blew someone up in a doctors office or at a Base some where. The fort hood massacre bothers me still. I want our Country safe and by Allowing someone to come in even if they looked like a terrorist is wrong. If he wants this bad enough then I say lose the towel and shave the beard. You want to be in our Army do what everyone else is doing and shave your head. Do not become one. BE ONE.

I understand where you are coming from however people of the Sikh faith (correct me guys if I am wrong) they arent terrorists. They have a very peaceful practice. The dude that went nuts was Jordanian (which I am 1/4 :ashamed:).....He just needs to shave his dang head though!! I totally agree it's bad enough a lot of our military looks sloppy most of the time..

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 04:26 PM
Whats I am trying to say is we at this point can not assume. He looks the part then he is the Part. If he wants to prove that he wants to be in our Army then shave his head and beard and take the towel off. I mean he can put in on for church or what ever but not while we are fighting.
What if I was in the Military and I said I didn't want to fight based upon my religion, but I wanted to get my education. I didn't wanna leave my country because I was afraid to fly based on my religion. Do you honestly believe that the Army would keep me. They would either throw me out or whip my ass and send me fighting. That's my whole point. At some point in life you have to suck it up and do whats right. In this case if he wanted to be in our military then do what everyone else does. I can almost bet that it does offend his fellow soldiers.

One more question. Do you think a state trooper would allow him to serve the people with the rag on his head. Every police academy I have ever been to has never allowed someone not to shave his head.

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 04:28 PM
I do agree with you on his religion. What I am saying though is at this time in our Fight how do we truly know. Heck it could be a cover up. They do look the same. Its hard to say which one he his. I would much rather insult one guy by not letting him join then to insult the thousands who have died and the thousands that are serving to let him stay.

flo
03-26-2010, 04:53 PM
From what I've seen in the Star Wars movies, you can't trust them.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x49/suzette74/SithLord.jpg

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

As an Army brat and a person who has respect for the Sikhs, I agree with Vizion.

flo
03-26-2010, 05:00 PM
I don't think it's a stretch to say that, with the eventual accomodations to others down the road, we'll have an Army that resembles the "holiday" displays - Christmas tree, menorah, kwanza artifact, winter solstice representation and all topped off by an atheist proclamation against all religions.

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 05:22 PM
You can say what you want but this will eventually turn into a Religious war. If it hasn't done that already.

Miss Foxy
03-26-2010, 05:39 PM
I don't think it's a stretch to say that, with the eventual accomodations to others down the road, we'll have an Army that resembles the "holiday" displays - Christmas tree, menorah, kwanza artifact, winter solstice representation and all topped off by an atheist proclamation against all religions.

lol!! True that!! Kinda pathetic.. Ugg it should not be going this way..:punch:

Spiritwalker
03-26-2010, 06:07 PM
i don't think anything you said is out of line, but this man could have very easily been born in the US .. there are plenty of first and second generation immigrants .... so by your theory, they would be allowed in the army ... i think there are people that are trying to hurt America, and infiltrating the military is a way to do that ... but to say that no visible minority can join the military is not a way to go, there has to be better screening processes, aptitude tests and background checks, just saying anyone with brown skin, nappy hair, towels on there head can't join is not the way to go



If our President can be President.. and not be born in the US.. then why not a fighting man??? :Whistle:

Llamafighter
03-26-2010, 10:08 PM
Lama Fighter I see your quote is from Mark Twain. Do you think he would have been OK with the guy being in our military if he was here today. What about John Adams or even George Washington. That's the people we forget about.

I use quotes that make sense. I honestly don't know a lot about Mark Twain I just read a lot of his stories. You ever read Tom Sawyer. He made Jim a very strong and sympathetic character in that book, so I imagine he wouldn't have a problem with it.


I haven't forgot about our founding fathers in fact our military in GW's day was comprised completely of immigrants, Donald.

Garandshooter
03-26-2010, 10:11 PM
The US military is the largest comunist organization in America. This was told to me on the first day of boot camp, by the head instructor. It's great he want's to serve, but to demand special treatment, and be granted it is wrong. Why are ar military leader turning in to PC weenies?

donaldbreland
03-26-2010, 10:33 PM
You're so right about GW Lama. The only difference is that our forefather who were immigrants wanted to help our Country not hurt us. I agree with 99% of your posts and agree to a certain extent on this one. My only problem is what if Muslims try to come off as sikhs. What if they fake that Religion to come into our military and shoot us when we least expect it. I wasn't trying to down you with talking about Mark Twain. I was referring to what our forfathers would think about whats happening today. What about all the dead soldiers. Do you think they would want anyone like that in our military.

AMJ
03-26-2010, 11:03 PM
Sikhs do not equal Muslims, Donald. In fact, if you google it just as I did, you will find out that both religions actually don't really get along because Muslims tried to destroy their faith. Just thought I'd share that interesting fact of the day I learned.

I don't think he demanded any special treatment, he had to prove that he could sufficiently wear the mask and helmet without endangering himself or others, which he did. I think immigrants like that who are trying to prove their love for the United States shouldn't be tossed aside and mocked. What greater act could you do to show your love by serving your country?

Chuck
03-26-2010, 11:17 PM
Sikhs do not equal Muslims, Donald. In fact, if you google it just as I did, you will find out that both religions actually don't really get along because Muslims tried to destroy their faith. Just thought I'd share that interesting fact of the day I learned.

I don't think he demanded any special treatment, he had to prove that he could sufficiently wear the mask and helmet without endangering himself or others, which he did. I think immigrants like that who are trying to prove their love for the United States shouldn't be tossed aside, what greater act could you do to show your love by serving you country?

I think he knows that.. I believe his point was simply that they appear to the untrained eye to look the same. I personally would have a hard time serving next to a bearded man wearing a turban.

I'm no expert but judging from what I read here http://fateh.sikhnet.com/s/WhyTurbans#Why%20wear%20a%20turban it isn't mandatory to their faith that they wear one, only that they cover their head. I see no reason why a standard issue military cover can't be used. I don't think we should make exceptions based on the desire of an individual. To me, this only weakens our armed forces.

I don't know how deeply the US Government looks into the background of those choosing to enter the military but I hope for all of our safety that they start looking a little deeper.

Llamafighter
03-27-2010, 02:43 AM
You're so right about GW Lama. The only difference is that our forefather who were immigrants wanted to help our Country not hurt us. I agree with 99% of your posts and agree to a certain extent on this one. My only problem is what if Muslims try to come off as sikhs. What if they fake that Religion to come into our military and shoot us when we least expect it. I wasn't trying to down you with talking about Mark Twain. I was referring to what our forfathers would think about whats happening today. What about all the dead soldiers. Do you think they would want anyone like that in our military.

I can't speak for any of the people you mention...

mscomc
03-27-2010, 04:29 AM
I think he knows that.. I believe his point was simply that they appear to the untrained eye to look the same. I personally would have a hard time serving next to a bearded man wearing a turban.

I'm no expert but judging from what I read here http://fateh.sikhnet.com/s/WhyTurbans#Why%20wear%20a%20turban it isn't mandatory to their faith that they wear one, only that they cover their head. I see no reason why a standard issue military cover can't be used. I don't think we should make exceptions based on the desire of an individual. To me, this only weakens our armed forces.

I don't know how deeply the US Government looks into the background of those choosing to enter the military but I hope for all of our safety that they start looking a little deeper.

The site you gave is actually didnt give the whole story (not anything against you :) )

In sikhism, once someone has become baptized as a sikh, there are obligatory things you must follow. http://www.sikhs.org/khalsa.htm

Kesh:
Long unshorn hair. A symbol of spirituality. The Kesh reminds a Khalsa to behave like the Guru's. It is a mark of dedication and group consciousness, showing a Khalsa's acceptance of God's will. Long hair have long been a common element of many spiritual prophets of various religions such as Jesus, Moses and Buddha.

Dastar:
Turban. A symbol of royalty and dignity. Historically the turban has been held in high esteem in eastern and middle eastern cultures. Guru Gobind Singh transformed this cultural symbol into a religious requirement so that the Khalsa would always have high self-esteem. It differentiates Sikhs from other religious followers who keep long hair but wear caps or keep matted hair. The turban cannot be covered by any other head gear or replaced by a cap or hat. The turban is mandatory for Sikh men and optional for Sikh women.

Kangha:
Comb. A symbol of hygiene and discipline as opposed to the matted unkept hair of ascetics. A Khalsa is expected to regularly wash and comb their hair as a matter of self discipline.

Kara:
Steel bracelet. A symbol to remind the wearer of restraint in their actions and remembrance of God at all times.

Kachha:
Drawers. A symbol signifying self control and chastity.

Kirpan:
Ceremonial Sword. A symbol of dignity and the Sikh struggle against injustice. It is worn purely as a religious symbol and not as a weapon.

--- number 2 is probably the most relevant here. You see, the sikhs last guru/prophet said to wear turbans. Thus, a turban IS REQUIRED. But, there are some liberal sects of sikhism that have tried to go against this in order to adpat a more western lifestyle.

I am not an expert either, but I do have many sikh friends, and as I am indian decent, i have studied alot on the subject. Anyway, just another perspective friend.:)

In a slight tangent. In other threads, it has been mentioned that christians must put God before anything else, and the law of the land can not interfere with gods law...I agree. But, to this man, a sikh, he beleives that by keeping his beard, and keeping his turban, HE is following gods law. So why should he not put gods law before anything else?

Now having not been in the military, I can't comment to much. But, he still did all the same training, he appears to be just as fit, and competent, and more over, he has a skill the army needs (dentistry), so whats the big deal?

Plus, as a dentist, I dont think he will be seeing to much combat, so even though he does have modified gas masks and other helmets, I dont think it would have a made a real difference even if he didn't.

Garandshooter
03-27-2010, 04:10 PM
If you have flat feet, asma, or physical dissabilty which keeps you from being able to perform your duties, you can not serve. The US military is a discriminating service, which you have to meet certain requirements. Uniform and appearance are part of the deal..ie no more forearm tattoos, neck tattoos. Following the dress and appearance codes are symbolic, as well as practical. Your heart may belong to Jesus, but your ass belongs to Uncle Sam.

Tyburn
04-01-2010, 08:47 PM
I dont think its a Faith issue...I think its a practical one.

I'm sure the US Government dont mind Sikhs enlisting...so long as they remove their turban and shave their bierds off...Thats not the same as "denounce your faith" it more a case of "you have to wear a helmet and a mask"

So no...I dont think this was right.

Now in almost any other industry I would say vice versa. I know one who claims to respect the individual, and then go on to list a lot of hairstyles that are banned...Banned for the sole reason they dont wish to see them...not for any practical issue.

Lets put it this way...if that guy said "I'm a Sikh, I want to enlist, I'll remove Turban and shave my bierd" and THEN they said no...then I would have an issue...but please...its confusing to say this is a religious issue...when its mere practicality.

mscomc
04-02-2010, 03:19 AM
I dont think its a Faith issue...I think its a practical one.

I'm sure the US Government dont mind Sikhs enlisting...so long as they remove their turban and shave their bierds off...Thats not the same as "denounce your faith" it more a case of "you have to wear a helmet and a mask"

So no...I dont think this was right.

Now in almost any other industry I would say vice versa. I know one who claims to respect the individual, and then go on to list a lot of hairstyles that are banned...Banned for the sole reason they dont wish to see them...not for any practical issue.

Lets put it this way...if that guy said "I'm a Sikh, I want to enlist, I'll remove Turban and shave my bierd" and THEN they said no...then I would have an issue...but please...its confusing to say this is a religious issue...when its mere practicality.

I dont think you understand the significance of beards and un-cut hair to a baptized sikh. It is a requirement! It is very blasphemous to them to shave their hair or cut their beards. In the sikh scriptures, it is even suggested that even when faced with threats of violence, do NOT shave your beards or hair.
So this issue does have religous significance. Did you read the link I posted on the previous page???

And in terms of being practical, whats the problem? practically, what can he NOT do? I am sure he did all the same training and fitness requirements, and he has an advanced skill (dentistry and engineering) the army needs, so what are you talking about?

Tyburn
04-02-2010, 11:28 AM
I dont think you understand the significance of beards and un-cut hair to a baptized sikh. It is a requirement! It is very blasphemous to them to shave their hair or cut their beards. In the sikh scriptures, it is even suggested that even when faced with threats of violence, do NOT shave your beards or hair.
So this issue does have religous significance. Did you read the link I posted on the previous page???

And in terms of being practical, whats the problem? practically, what can he NOT do? I am sure he did all the same training and fitness requirements, and he has an advanced skill (dentistry and engineering) the army needs, so what are you talking about?
No I didnt read you link. I'm just replying to the original question

The Army also needs people who can wear masks and helmets..i'm sure THEY have changed to accomodate him in this instance...whether they should or not when their job is not to create different equipment to ensure someone with a turban can wear a helmet, is probably not for me to answer.

What if a wheelchair user wishes to join the ranks :huh: is it descrimination or a matter of practicality to turn them away. :huh: The Armed Forces...like The Church, should be free from having to employ equal opps, because it just doesnt work. You cant have an athiest Bishop any more then you can have a wheelchair user in active combat I would think.

NateR
04-02-2010, 12:32 PM
what can he NOT do?

Well, he can't shave his beard or wear the appropriate regulation headgear, which every other member of the Armed Forces is REQUIRED to do. Do you not see the problem that this double standard creates for team cohesion and unity? In the military, uniformity is everything. What makes this guy better than the hundreds of thousands of military service members who can meet the uniform standards without any problems?

Spiritwalker
04-02-2010, 01:32 PM
Well, he can't shave his beard or wear the appropriate regulation headgear, which every other member of the Armed Forces is REQUIRED to do. Do you not see the problem that this double standard creates for team cohesion and unity? In the military, uniformity is everything. What makes this guy better than the hundreds of thousands of military service members who can meet the uniform standards without any problems?


+1

flo
04-02-2010, 04:24 PM
+1

Ditto.

mscomc
04-02-2010, 05:58 PM
Well, he can't shave his beard or wear the appropriate regulation headgear, which every other member of the Armed Forces is REQUIRED to do. Do you not see the problem that this double standard creates for team cohesion and unity? In the military, uniformity is everything. What makes this guy better than the hundreds of thousands of military service members who can meet the uniform standards without any problems?

hmm, well since I have not served in the military, perhaps I am just unable to see the big deal in terms of uniform dress and "regulation" head gear that everyone else has to wear, with him as an exception. I guess I was still looking at the issue of, 'what he can still do?" ....my understanding is that he can still do all: procedures and drills that everyone else can do, could probably do just as well in battle if need be, and he has a special skill. Plus, I view team cohesion and unity being better based on the quality of the person I am with, and not if he has the same haircut as me.

But, since you are a veteran, maybe I was looking at this wrong. If uniformity is really that important, as you say is it, then maybe I am more inclined to agree this was the NOT best of ideas.

mscomc
04-02-2010, 06:01 PM
No I didnt read you link. I'm just replying to the original question

The Army also needs people who can wear masks and helmets..i'm sure THEY have changed to accomodate him in this instance...whether they should or not when their job is not to create different equipment to ensure someone with a turban can wear a helmet, is probably not for me to answer.

What if a wheelchair user wishes to join the ranks :huh: is it descrimination or a matter of practicality to turn them away. :huh: The Armed Forces...like The Church, should be free from having to employ equal opps, because it just doesnt work. You cant have an athiest Bishop any more then you can have a wheelchair user in active combat I would think.

I do not think that is comparable. A person who is in a wheelchair CANT do all the physical requirements that anyone else can do, under any circumstance. The Sikh captain, in this case, CAN do all the physical requirements that everyone else can do, he just may need a helmet that is modified, which I don't think is a big deal. So I think this is a bad comparison.

Tyburn
04-02-2010, 06:03 PM
hmm, well since I have not served in the military, perhaps I am just unable to see the big deal in terms of uniform dress and "regulation" head gear that everyone else has to wear, with him as an exception. I guess I was still looking at the issue of, 'what he can still do?" ....my understanding is that he can still do all: procedures and drills that everyone else can do, could probably do just as well in battle if need be, and he has a special skill. Plus, I view team cohesion and unity being better based on the quality of the person I am with, and not if he has the same haircut as me.

But, since you are a veteran, maybe I was looking at this wrong. If uniformity is really that important, as you say is it, then maybe I am more inclined to agree this was the NOT best of ideas.

As a Christian, its a totally foreign ideal to me, that one must wear anything material to proove a belief.

Suppose you were to take his turban and shave his bierd...would it change his views? His Religion may not accept him...but his belief wont evaporate will they?

I dont think the issue, from the Armed Forces is one of what a person believes...I think its a matter of what they can/cant do. If you cant wear what they tell you to wear...then for whatever reason...its mute...the point is not with the faith, its litterally with the turban

Tyburn
04-02-2010, 06:09 PM
I do not think that is comparable. A person who is in a wheelchair CANT do all the physical requirements that anyone else can do, under any circumstance. The Sikh captain, in this case, CAN do all the physical requirements that everyone else can do, he just may need a helmet that is modified, which I don't think is a big deal. So I think this is a bad comparison.

But wearing a helmet IS a physical requirement! Try to understand it from the Military perspective. The Uniform is a Standard...the appearance of a Standard matters...supposing I say to you "dont worry I'm going to build you an American Flag...but I aint got no blue...so I'm afraid that square in the corner will have to be Green.

It Matters. Its a Standard. You cant change the Standard without it becoming a New Standard.

The Uniform is supposed to be that important. Do you know it was made law not so long ago in this country that if you insult member of the Military who is wearing the Uniform, you have comitted a Criminal Offense? Why? because what does the Uniform Represent? The Crown.

Tyburn
04-02-2010, 06:11 PM
..and further more...if they ammend the Uniform to appease one type...it wont be long before they have to do so for everyone else! thats the danger.