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rearnakedchoke
03-21-2010, 09:12 PM
So as a Canadian, can someone please fill me in ... what happens if the Bill gets 216 votes. At that point is it passed? Is there anyway to defeat it after that point?

I don't think they will get the 216 this time around .. I do think they will go back, play with it and get 216 at a later date ... is that possible?

Tyburn
03-21-2010, 10:30 PM
So as a Canadian, can someone please fill me in ... what happens if the Bill gets 216 votes. At that point is it passed? Is there anyway to defeat it after that point?

I don't think they will get the 216 this time around .. I do think they will go back, play with it and get 216 at a later date ... is that possible?

Ummm....The Democrats have just caved in on Abortion in order to pick up the sway republicans and the rest of the democrats who hate abortion

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/21/deal-struck-on-abortion-clears-path-for-health-care-passage/?icid=main|aim|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politics daily.com%2F2010%2F03%2F21%2Fdeal-struck-on-abortion-clears-path-for-health-care-passage%2F

Rev
03-21-2010, 10:44 PM
No the didnt cave on it, they made a promise that they would go back and change it and judging from our current president's record of promise keeping it looks like next week it will be legal to kill babies in America.

Tyburn
03-21-2010, 10:46 PM
No the didnt cave on it, they made a promise that they would go back and change it and judging from our current president's record of promise keeping it looks like next week it will be legal to kill babies in America.

But Obama is being forced to make good his promise before the vote...no :huh:

Presumably if he doesnt sign the executive order today...then they wont vote "aye" tommorow :huh:

The artical said he had to sign the executive order today...can he undo an executive order later on :ninja::huh:

NateR
03-21-2010, 10:48 PM
Even if it passes, which I am praying that it does NOT, it could be tied up in our court system for years as lawyers challenge the Constitutionality of the bill itself.

However, if it fails here, then it will effectively be the end of Obama's Presidency, since it will be a devastating loss that he will probably not be able to recover from.

Here's hoping that it fails and fails big. :laugh:

Tyburn
03-21-2010, 10:57 PM
However, if it fails here, then it will effectively be the end of Obama's Presidency, since it will be a devastating loss that he will probably not be able to recover from.



Indeed! could you imagine! he'd be rendered incompetant.

I reckon it might pass for that reason alone...people know his very essence hangs on this passing...but then hopefully it can get caught up in the courts for a few years...and after the next ellection it can die a death :huh:

flo
03-21-2010, 11:20 PM
It looks like it's going to be signed but the moment it is VA, FL, ID and many, many other states are filing a suit against the Fed. Gov't challenging the constitutionality of this bill in basically two areas, 1)unconstitutional to FORCE people to buy insurance as it has nothing to do with commerce, trade, etc. and 2)the deals made with NE, LA, etc. violate the constitution as all states must be treated equally re: federal law.

flo
03-21-2010, 11:21 PM
Here is a good WaPo link outlining possible constitutional challenges:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/19/AR2010031901470.html

Tyburn
03-21-2010, 11:42 PM
It looks like it's going to be signed but the moment it is VA, FL, ID and many, many other states are filing a suit against the Fed. Gov't challenging the constitutionality of this bill in basically two areas, 1)unconstitutional to FORCE people to buy insurance as it has nothing to do with commerce, trade, etc. and 2)the deals made with NE, LA, etc. violate the constitution as all states must be treated equally re: federal law.


So it'll be a white wash...It will make Obama look fantastic but in the long run ammount to...well...nothing. :blink:

Thats becoming typical of his whole Administration isnt it :laugh:

I do wish they'd ellected McCain instead :sad:

surveyorshawn
03-22-2010, 02:52 AM
The executive order Obama signed was nothing but a ploy. An executive order cannot alter a law (the healthcare bill, in this instance). If this law was passed, and something was challenged in the way of abortions in regard to the executive order Obama signed and it went to court, the law would be upheld and the executive order thrown out, since it has no weight or jurisdiction. Surely the members of the LEGISLATIVE branch who changed their votes based on the order had to have know this, unless they really are that ignorant. It seems that it just gave them a cover to switch their votes in the eyes of the most ignorant of their constituents.

Maldonado136
03-22-2010, 04:12 AM
looks like its been passed.

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 04:54 AM
Congratulations to you my American friends. I am glad that you have taken this first step in becoming one of the greatest nations on earth. The people of America have spoken and told the world that they want and need this long overdue Healthcare Reform.

God Bless to all my American friends.

Bonnie
03-22-2010, 06:24 AM
looks like its been passed.

Some changes in the bill (the "compromise plan") still have to go to the Senate for a vote from what I understand.

$940 billion dollars.....incredible (and I don't mean in a good way)!

flo
03-22-2010, 07:20 AM
If Congress had listened to "the people who have spoken" this socialized medicine package would not have passed.

I had the same reaction as Tom Delay, "sickened".

Bonnie
03-22-2010, 07:47 AM
If Congress had listened to "the people who have spoken" this socialized medicine package would not have passed.

I had the same reaction as Tom Delay, "sickened".

If only we "the people" could vote on health care for these back-room, under-the-table dealing politicians. :punch:

rockdawg21
03-22-2010, 12:51 PM
http://col.stb.s-msn.com/i/14/EBD6C9FC4466DEBC668CFBD6F5F836.jpg

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35977921/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

This f'ing sucks!

rockdawg21
03-22-2010, 12:54 PM
Congratulations to you my American friends. I am glad that you have taken this first step in becoming one of the greatest nations on earth. The people of America have spoken and told the world that they want and need this long overdue Healthcare Reform.

God Bless to all my American friends.
The only thing that's in need of reform is our government itself. The majority of the people don't want this, the majority of our Liberal Congress wants this.

MSNBC.com has a poll regarding this and out of over 200,000 people, currently, 56% are angry, 22.5% are excited, while 20.9% are unsure.
http://politics.newsvine.com/_question/2010/03/21/4048693-the-house-has-passed-an-historic-health-care-overhaul-are-you-excited-or-angry?GT1=43001

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 01:05 PM
The only thing that's in need of reform is our government itself. The majority of the people don't want this, the majority of our Liberal Congress wants this.

MSNBC.com has a poll regarding this and out of over 200,000 people, currently, 56% are angry, 22.5% are excited, while 20.9% are unsure.
http://politics.newsvine.com/_question/2010/03/21/4048693-the-house-has-passed-an-historic-health-care-overhaul-are-you-excited-or-angry?GT1=43001

I don't understand ... wasn't this one of the big "changes" that obama wanted to make? if people knew this, why would the majority of the country vote for him knowing something like this would happen?

NateR
03-22-2010, 01:22 PM
Congratulations to you my American friends. I am glad that you have taken this first step in becoming one of the greatest nations on earth. The people of America have spoken and told the world that they want and need this long overdue Healthcare Reform.

God Bless to all my American friends.

Save your liberal stupidity. We've taken a step to becoming nothing but a socialist dictatorship. This is the beginning of the end of freedom and democracy in America.

Anyone who votes Democrat from here on out is a traitor to the United States.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
03-22-2010, 01:22 PM
They most definitely made some bad changes!

County Mike
03-22-2010, 01:29 PM
I don't understand ... wasn't this one of the big "changes" that obama wanted to make? if people knew this, why would the majority of the country vote for him knowing something like this would happen?

Because the majority of Americans want handouts or are too stupid to understand the down-side of all the handouts.

rockdawg21
03-22-2010, 01:32 PM
I don't understand ... wasn't this one of the big "changes" that obama wanted to make? if people knew this, why would the majority of the country vote for him knowing something like this would happen?
The majority of the country didn't vote for Obama. Only about 20% of the entire voting population voted for Obama while the rest simply sat on their asses and let this bull**** happen.

NateR
03-22-2010, 01:36 PM
I don't understand ... wasn't this one of the big "changes" that obama wanted to make? if people knew this, why would the majority of the country vote for him knowing something like this would happen?

Try checking your facts. Obama won the election with 62,704,840 votes, which was 52% of the popular vote. The US population in 2008 is estimated at 303,824,640 people by the US Census Bureau. Thus, the majority of the country DID NOT vote for Obama. Only about 20% of the American population voted for Obama. I don't know how they do math over there in Canada, but that is far from a "majority of the country."

You can say that the majority of the people who voted, voted for Obama. That's technically correct, even though 52% is hardly a landslide victory. However, you can NOT say that the majority of Americans voted for Obama. That's factually inaccurate.

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 01:37 PM
If only we "the people" could vote on health care for these back-room, under-the-table dealing politicians. :punch:

you mean...a referendum? :huh:

That would be amazing...has America EVER had a Referendum on anything? Our Government is frightened of Referendums because it give the public a vote.

The Public wanted a Referendum on the Iraq War...Blair claimed there was no time. The Public wanted a Referendum on The European Union Lisbon Treaty...but they bluffed their way out of having to do one.

This is how we know Governments arent really answerable to the people, except to gain or lose power at allotted times.

Britian knows a Referendum would have seen us never enter Iraq, and it knows that it would have seen the EU have to abandon the Lisbon Treaty....Obama knows if he dared put the Health Reform to a Referendum...well...he may aswell Resign right now...:laugh:

I reckon someone should pass a law saying if the opinion polls come back a certain extreme proportion...like they did with this Bill, the Government should be forced into a Referendum...you'd soon see accountability then :ninja:

NateR
03-22-2010, 01:40 PM
you mean...a referendum? :huh:

That would be amazing...has America EVER had a Referendum on anything? Our Government is frightened of Referendums because it give the public a vote.

The Public wanted a Referendum on the Iraq War...Blair claimed there was no time. The Public wanted a Referendum on The European Union Lisbon Treaty...but they bluffed their way out of having to do one.

This is how we know Governments arent really answerable to the people, except to gain or lose power at allotted times.

Britian knows a Referendum would have seen us never enter Iraq, and it knows that it would have seen the EU have to abandon the Lisbon Treaty....Obama knows if he dared put the Health Reform to a Referendum...well...he may aswell Resign right now...:laugh:

I reckon someone should pass a law saying if the opinion polls come back a certain extreme proportion...like they did with this Bill, the Government should be forced into a Referendum...you'd soon see accountability then :ninja:

Actually if we can get 35 states together to challenge this bill, those states could actually overrule the federal government and kill this before it even takes effect.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping that the governor of Texas was serious about seceding from the nation, because I might want to move back to Texas.

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 01:49 PM
I don't understand ... wasn't this one of the big "changes" that obama wanted to make? if people knew this, why would the majority of the country vote for him knowing something like this would happen?

America doesnt vote like a Democrasy...its a complex system of votes...as a member of the public...you give your vote over to someone else who votes for you....you usually know which way that person will vote...but not always.
to make it even more difficult, some states do that...and some vote purely in a democratic way...and the results are collated...its an extrordinary affair...extremelty complex...and I dont think its anywhere near as accurate as a simple democratic vote

Imagine you handing your vote over to a member of the city council to vote on your behalf...outrageous...:blink:

They also have this thing called Proportional Representation...which makes it even more difficult...because its supposed to be proportionate...if your a bigger state, your votes have more weight...so All men may be created equal...but all States sure as hell arent equal...you gain a large State...and your away...you gain like five small states...and well forget it, your opponent could beat you with a single victory

plus, they dont even vote at the same time...they vote over the course of nearly a year...whose to say if your in one of the first to vote...that by the time you'd seen more of the campaign trail...you might wish you'd voted different...plus...when the results come in...the Old Administration still remains in power for sometimes months afterwards...whilst a "President Ellect" waits...

Now I dont know how it is in Canada...but in England its extremely simple. Each person gets a vote, they vote directly for themselve, they vote all at the same time, when the result is announced, the new Administration moves in and the old Administration is kicked out.

its plain, its simple, its fair. The Majority of the population get the result they want.

American bear in mind isa Republic...its NOT a Democrasy...its a Democratic Republic...its True Title IMHO Should be The United States of the Democratic Republic of America

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 01:55 PM
Actually if we can get 35 states together to challenge this bill, those states could actually overrule the federal government and kill this before it even takes effect.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping that the governor of Texas was serious about seceding from the nation, because I might want to move back to Texas.

Really? Enough States aggreed can overule the Federacy? Oh I didnt know that! but I think its a good thing...

Forget Texas...if you ask me, the first State to give the Union a slip will be Hawaii...I've heard your President is granting them independance or something...they are to have their own Government?? how does that work in a Union??

I kinda hope like you that the Americans actually turn on Obama over this because he's not listening to his Nation and the one thing I REALLY hate is an Administration that wont listen to their Public.

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 02:29 PM
The majority of the country didn't vote for Obama. Only about 20% of the entire voting population voted for Obama while the rest simply sat on their asses and let this bull**** happen.

so who is to blame? the people that voted for obama, or the people that sat on their asses?

Twinsmama
03-22-2010, 02:36 PM
Both!

If someone didn't care enough to vote I don't think they should get to complain now.

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 02:41 PM
its funny how people say people who vote dem want to sit around and take handouts ... but from what i have heard ... the people who should have been voting rep were sitting on their asses and not voting ... how funny ....

just think, you can all be more healthy now and make you nation stronger.

Silverback
03-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Thats the problem with the system, we can rant and rave till we are blue in the face on the forum, we can throw a fit, protest, raise our voice, and cuss like sailors, but, bottom line these brain dead punks in Washington will still be screwing me and my kids and their kids for sometime to come. History tells us that the only way to change things is to throw them out, punch them out, or shoot them out, but if that don't happen, then we still go to work, make the money and pay our taxes, seems to me this just keeps getting better and better.(BULL----):muttering::muttering::muttering:

County Mike
03-22-2010, 03:15 PM
its funny how people say people who vote dem want to sit around and take handouts ... but from what i have heard ... the people who should have been voting rep were sitting on their asses and not voting ... how funny ....

just think, you can all be more healthy now and make you nation stronger.

I'm plenty healthy now and I don't see a reason to help Joe Welfare get free health insurance so his girlfriends can make more welfare babies. Not that the lack of healthcare ever stopped 'em anyway. Now it just takes more out of my paycheck. In reality, nothing will really change except that the working man will take home less money.

Spiritwalker
03-22-2010, 03:46 PM
Just like the first few days after the election... It's Time To Flex Optimism

Hope everyone ejony's the change.. it's all I have left now :(

logrus
03-22-2010, 04:39 PM
I just want to thank everyone for the healthcare...

Bonnie
03-22-2010, 04:49 PM
you mean...a referendum? :huh:

That would be amazing...has America EVER had a Referendum on anything? Our Government is frightened of Referendums because it give the public a vote.

The Public wanted a Referendum on the Iraq War...Blair claimed there was no time. The Public wanted a Referendum on The European Union Lisbon Treaty...but they bluffed their way out of having to do one.

This is how we know Governments arent really answerable to the people, except to gain or lose power at allotted times.

Britian knows a Referendum would have seen us never enter Iraq, and it knows that it would have seen the EU have to abandon the Lisbon Treaty....Obama knows if he dared put the Health Reform to a Referendum...well...he may aswell Resign right now...:laugh:

I reckon someone should pass a law saying if the opinion polls come back a certain extreme proportion...like they did with this Bill, the Government should be forced into a Referendum...you'd soon see accountability then :ninja:

No, not a referendum, because Congress, the legislative branch, would be responsible for making the law and they would never do anything that would give us "the people" that kind of power to decide their fate and livelihood.

I'm saying maybe our forefathers should have gone further and put into place a check and balance where the people have more direct control over those they elect into office. We should get to decide when Congress gets a raise, how much they should get, what kind of healthcare they should get and so on. In other words, Congress shouldn't get to give themselves raises and decide their own healthcare plan, we should get to decide that for them. As it stands now, the fox is guarding the hen house.

If they had true accountability to us and true consequences for their failure to listen to us and what we want them to do then maybe we would see true democracy at work. Voting them out of office every two or four years does not appear to give them enough incentive to do the people's will and not their own.

They're deciding the fate of our lives so I think it's only fair and democratic that we have the power to decide theirs. It seems like all we're good for in their eyes is a vote when election time comes around. Other than that, we're to be like children, seen but not "heard".

timmyja
03-22-2010, 05:30 PM
Actually if we can get 35 states together to challenge this bill, those states could actually overrule the federal government and kill this before it even takes effect.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping that the governor of Texas was serious about seceding from the nation, because I might want to move back to Texas.

Don't hit your brakes, because I'll be right behind you

TexasRN
03-22-2010, 05:45 PM
Don't hit your brakes, because I'll be right behind you

My bf and I will be too. He is a NJ boy but has said if this thing passes and TX secedes, he wants to become a Texan. :laugh:


~Amy

timmyja
03-22-2010, 05:49 PM
I'm a Virginian so I still have a prayer, but I think I could get used to texas

flo
03-22-2010, 05:50 PM
If only we "the people" could vote on health care for these back-room, under-the-table dealing politicians. :punch:

Wouldn't THAT be nice...they might then actually stop and listen to what we are saying.

But they know best...

CAVEMAN
03-22-2010, 05:55 PM
I'm plenty healthy now and I don't see a reason to help Joe Welfare get free health insurance so his girlfriends can make more welfare babies. Not that the lack of healthcare ever stopped 'em anyway. Now it just takes more out of my paycheck. In reality, nothing will really change except that the working man will take home less money.

:applause::applause::applause:

Could not of said it better, Mike!

flo
03-22-2010, 05:55 PM
Actually if we can get 35 states together to challenge this bill, those states could actually overrule the federal government and kill this before it even takes effect.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping that the governor of Texas was serious about seceding from the nation, because I might want to move back to Texas.

Don't hit your brakes, because I'll be right behind you
My bf and I will be too. He is a NJ boy but has said if this thing passes and TX secedes, he wants to become a Texan. :laugh:

~Amy

Save room on the bus for us, we're going too.

flo
03-22-2010, 05:56 PM
I'm plenty healthy now and I don't see a reason to help Joe Welfare get free health insurance so his girlfriends can make more welfare babies. Not that the lack of healthcare ever stopped 'em anyway. Now it just takes more out of my paycheck. In reality, nothing will really change except that the working man will take home less money.

Bingo.

Rev
03-22-2010, 06:13 PM
Not a good time for the out-of-towners to be kicking us while we are down. No matter how far out our crappy government gets, just remember how we became who we are.(kicking the crap out of king george) The American government may suck, but most of the American people are still who we have always been.

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 06:46 PM
Not a good time for the out-of-towners to be kicking us while we are down. No matter how far out our crappy government gets, just remember how we became who we are.(kicking the crap out of king george) The American government may suck, but most of the American people are still who we have always been.

we aren't kicking you and you aren't down ... we are praising the fact that your wonderful government has chosen to take a step in the right direction and improve your country ...

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 06:51 PM
No, not a referendum, because Congress, the legislative branch, would be responsible for making the law and they would never do anything that would give us "the people" that kind of power to decide their fate and livelihood.

I'm saying maybe our forefathers should have gone further and put into place a check and balance where the people have more direct control over those they elect into office. We should get to decide when Congress gets a raise, how much they should get, what kind of healthcare they should get and so on. In other words, Congress shouldn't get to give themselves raises and decide their own healthcare plan, we should get to decide that for them. As it stands now, the fox is guarding the hen house.

If they had true accountability to us and true consequences for their failure to listen to us and what we want them to do then maybe we would see true democracy at work. Voting them out of office every two or four years does not appear to give them enough incentive to do the people's will and not their own.

They're deciding the fate of our lives so I think it's only fair and democratic that we have the power to decide theirs. It seems like all we're good for in their eyes is a vote when election time comes around. Other than that, we're to be like children, seen but not "heard".

Indeed...and your country is not alone in acting like that. All the democratic countries in the world seem to end up Dictatorship Via Ellection.

I sometimes think that they only fear us the few weeks before a major ellection. But unlike the American System...it seems a lot harder to produce laws. What I mean is...you guys always go on about Legislative, Judicial and Executive Branches of Government...I'm not at all sure I understand what that actually means..your system is highly complex...I dont have indepth knowledge about my own countries system of white papers, bills passing to the Lords, and back to the commons, and off to the Lords again...let alone how this branch is supposed to ballence this branch.

I find that your Forefather created an incredibly complex situation with how your Government works and I dont really understand it...but the outcome seems pretty much the same as ours...once you vote them in....they can pretty much do what they like :unsure-1:

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 06:54 PM
we aren't kicking you and you aren't down ... we are praising the fact that your wonderful government has chosen to take a step in the right direction and improve your country ...

I think your smuggly mocking the Americans...I dont think you should do that...you wouldnt like it if your Government completely ignored your wishes and all the Americans laughed at you. :ninja:

Dont be mean. :mellow:

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 06:57 PM
I think your smuggly mocking the Americans...I dont think you should do that...you wouldnt like it if your Government completely ignored your wishes and all the Americans laughed at you. :ninja:

Dont be mean. :mellow:

huh? the American government is doing exactly what the American people want ... they voted Obama in mainly because of his passion in getting healthcare reform ... i am genuinely happy for them

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 07:04 PM
huh? the American government is doing exactly what the American people want ... they voted Obama in mainly because of his passion in getting healthcare reform ... i am genuinely happy for them

No they voted Obama in because he was a sweet talking Black guy and they had never had one of those in Office before.

The People clearly showed in recent local ellections how they felt about Obamacare. the CLEARLY showed that...the wayward Democrats sided with their friends claiming that an executive order will save the babies from abortion...when it wont...in otherwords...they lost their nerve.

your going on about it because you know the majority of the Americans on this forum are conservative republicans, who wouldnt have voted for Obama in the first place let alone support some centrist tug on the whole constitution. You know these are Right Wing...and you know Obama who just won is Centrist...you know they wont be celebrating...so your rubbing it in...its a really mean thing to do. :mellow:

Dont give the commonwealth a bad name :angry:

mscomc
03-22-2010, 07:08 PM
No they voted Obama in because he was a sweet talking Black guy and they had never had one of those in Office before.

The People clearly showed in recent local ellections how they felt about Obamacare. the CLEARLY showed that...the wayward Democrats sided with their friends claiming that an executive order will save the babies from abortion...when it wont...in otherwords...they lost their nerve.

your going on about it because you know the majority of the Americans on this forum are conservative republicans, who wouldnt have voted for Obama in the first place let alone support some centrist tug on the whole constitution. You know these are Right Wing...and you know Obama who just won is Centrist...you know they wont be celebrating...so your rubbing it in...its a really mean thing to do. :mellow:

Dont give the commonwealth a bad name :angry:

Prince charles and his pig camilla give the commonwealth a bad name, not rearnakedchoke. So save it...

Rev
03-22-2010, 07:08 PM
lol, dont worry dave. We dont link you in with people like that. Funny the freedom and courage the web gives a person.

TexasRN
03-22-2010, 07:21 PM
huh? the American government is doing exactly what the American people want ... they voted Obama in mainly because of his passion in getting healthcare reform ... i am genuinely happy for them


A lot of the Americans who voted for Obama voted for him without knowing what he stood for other than "Change." Some even voted for him to prove that they would vote for a black man (it was the "cool" thing to do). So I disagree that Americans voted Obama in because of his stance on healthcare. Even if they knew what he stood for, they were voting for him due to his stance on the economy and the war.

So don't be happy for us. Govt controlled healthcare is NOT a good thing.


~Amy

flo
03-22-2010, 07:35 PM
No they voted Obama in because he was a sweet talking Black guy and they had never had one of those in Office before.

The People clearly showed in recent local ellections how they felt about Obamacare. the CLEARLY showed that...the wayward Democrats sided with their friends claiming that an executive order will save the babies from abortion...when it wont...in otherwords...they lost their nerve.

your going on about it because you know the majority of the Americans on this forum are conservative republicans, who wouldnt have voted for Obama in the first place let alone support some centrist tug on the whole constitution. You know these are Right Wing...and you know Obama who just won is Centrist...you know they wont be celebrating...so your rubbing it in...its a really mean thing to do.:mellow:



Right on, Dave, thanks.

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 08:04 PM
[/B]

Prince charles and his pig camilla give the commonwealth a bad name

I dont dissagree with that. :laugh:

but just because the Heir acts like that...doesnt mean everyone should.

This is a Republican bias Forum...to revel in a democrat victory wont make you friends will it. Knowing this, why would you deliberately go out of your way to rant and rave about something you know the majority of this forum are against?? RNC is a regular patron...he knows this.

You shake a hornets nest, you should get prepared for the sting

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 08:07 PM
Right on, Dave, thanks.

:) your welcome :ashamed:

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 08:16 PM
I dont dissagree with that. :laugh:

but just because the Heir acts like that...doesnt mean everyone should.

This is a Republican bias Forum...to revel in a democrat victory wont make you friends will it. Knowing this, why would you deliberately go out of your way to rant and rave about something you know the majority of this forum are against?? RNC is a regular patron...he knows this.

You shake a hornets nest, you should get prepared for the sting

Dave, people disagree on issues here all the time .. as long as we agree Matt Hughes is the greatest ufc fighter of all time, that is all that matters ....

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 08:40 PM
Dave, people disagree on issues here all the time .. as long as we agree Matt Hughes is the greatest ufc fighter of all time, that is all that matters ....

:laugh: ohh...of course...

Bonnie
03-22-2010, 09:21 PM
Indeed...and your country is not alone in acting like that. All the democratic countries in the world seem to end up Dictatorship Via Ellection.

I sometimes think that they only fear us the few weeks before a major ellection. But unlike the American System...it seems a lot harder to produce laws. What I mean is...you guys always go on about Legislative, Judicial and Executive Branches of Government...I'm not at all sure I understand what that actually means..your system is highly complex...I dont have indepth knowledge about my own countries system of white papers, bills passing to the Lords, and back to the commons, and off to the Lords again...let alone how this branch is supposed to ballence this branch.

I find that your Forefather created an incredibly complex situation with how your Government works and I dont really understand it...but the outcome seems pretty much the same as ours...once you vote them in....they can pretty much do what they like :unsure-1:

Our forefathers were very wise men and divided the power between the three branches to serve as a way to have "checks and balances" so that no one branch held ALL the power.

Bonnie
03-22-2010, 09:26 PM
A lot of the Americans who voted for Obama voted for him without knowing what he stood for other than "Change." Some even voted for him to prove that they would vote for a black man (it was the "cool" thing to do). So I disagree that Americans voted Obama in because of his stance on healthcare. Even if they knew what he stood for, they were voting for him due to his stance on the economy and the war.

So don't be happy for us. Govt controlled healthcare is NOT a good thing.


~Amy

You hit that nail right on the head, Amy.

Shoots like a girl
03-22-2010, 09:43 PM
You hit that nail right on the head, Amy.

I agree! Most of the people I know that voted Obama didnt have a clue as to what the issues were. I would totally vote a black man in office as long as I felt thats what was good for this county. I didnt vote this black man in and Im not liking Obamacare at all!!!! We are in some serious trouble!

flo
03-22-2010, 09:44 PM
You hit that nail right on the head, Amy.

Yup!

flo
03-22-2010, 09:46 PM
Site that monitors state's efforts to repeal this steaming pile:

http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/nullification/health-care/

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 09:52 PM
Our forefathers were very wise men and divided the power between the three branches to serve as a way to have "checks and balances" so that no one branch held ALL the power.

Can you explain it to me Bonnie...I mean...does it divide your Government into three :huh: is your Court system not run by your Government :blink: What is an Executive Branch...if Congress is Legislative :unsure-1:

Sorry I dont understand, noone has ever explained it to me...I just hear a lot of Americans talking about how one Branch can do this to stop anaother...or one can do something to make another do something...your Legal System is REALLY foreign to me. I struggle to even understand how Congress actually works let alone the interaction of other departments of the Interior...like all Non Americans...the only thing we really understand about any American Administration is their Foreign Policy, and interaction with The United Nations...and even that changes with each new Administration...and me...I'm only an expert on one particular Administration and its interaction...and that Administration has gone now :unsure-1:

Sorry if I seem a bit dumbass...but im following this through news sources and what people on this forum tell me is possible, or not possible in terms of passing a bit of legislation...its difficult because your country doesnt use the same system of laws either.

There are two systems of law...Common Law, or Constitutional Law. One is guided by a document...one is guided by the whims of a particular administration. For example...IF America ran on Common Law, then you could laugh at Obama because a new Administration would be able to reverse a law made by a previous administration...of course that works both way...when the democrats reappear they could then bring it back a second time...in England its like laws can come and go, the same ones...but at different chronological points in our nations history...so I struggle to understand how your Government could possibly pass a law which could in ANYWAY be unconstitutional...because doesnt it work on preconceived absolutes :huh:

rearnakedchoke
03-22-2010, 09:56 PM
Site that monitors state's efforts to repeal this steaming pile:

http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/nullification/health-care/

flo ... could you explain this please?

Bonnie
03-22-2010, 10:24 PM
Can you explain it to me Bonnie...I mean...does it divide your Government into three :huh: is your Court system not run by your Government :blink: What is an Executive Branch...if Congress is Legislative :unsure-1:

Sorry I dont understand, noone has ever explained it to me...I just hear a lot of Americans talking about how one Branch can do this to stop anaother...or one can do something to make another do something...your Legal System is REALLY foreign to me. I struggle to even understand how Congress actually works let alone the interaction of other departments of the Interior...like all Non Americans...the only thing we really understand about any American Administration is their Foreign Policy, and interaction with The United Nations...and even that changes with each new Administration...and me...I'm only an expert on one particular Administration and its interaction...and that Administration has gone now :unsure-1:

Sorry if I seem a bit dumbass...but im following this through news sources and what people on this forum tell me is possible, or not possible in terms of passing a bit of legislation...its difficult because your country doesnt use the same system of laws either.

There are two systems of law...Common Law, or Constitutional Law. One is guided by a document...one is guided by the whims of a particular administration. For example...IF America ran on Common Law, then you could laugh at Obama because a new Administration would be able to reverse a law made by a previous administration...of course that works both way...when the democrats reappear they could then bring it back a second time...in England its like laws can come and go, the same ones...but at different chronological points in our nations history...so I struggle to understand how your Government could possibly pass a law which could in ANYWAY be unconstitutional...because doesnt it work on preconceived absolutes :huh:

Here's a link to one site that might help explain it, Dave. Also, look under "Checks and Balances" for a list of each branch's responsibilities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers_under_the_United_States_Const itution

flo
03-22-2010, 10:53 PM
flo ... could you explain this please?
After this bill is signed into law (tomorrow?), 10 or 11 states will file suit to nullify this legislation due to constitutional challenges. What I linked to is a site that is monitoring the challenges in various states.

TENNESSEAN
03-22-2010, 10:59 PM
Site that monitors state's efforts to repeal this steaming pile:

http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/nullification/health-care/

this is getting very interesting.
looks like the states don't want to play with the feds. maybe they should take their health care and go home.

rockdawg21
03-22-2010, 11:35 PM
http://politics.polls.newsvine.com/_question/2010/03/21/4048693-the-house-has-passed-an-historic-health-care-overhaul-are-you-excited-or-angry?GT1=43001

The vote now has more than 550,000 voters with 2/3 of all polled declaring anger over the issue. 6.4% don't know what to feel, 0.9% are "other", while the remaining 26.2% are wimpy free-loading pussies.

rockdawg21
03-22-2010, 11:37 PM
its funny how people say people who vote dem want to sit around and take handouts ... but from what i have heard ... the people who should have been voting rep were sitting on their asses and not voting ... how funny ....

just think, you can all be more healthy now and make you nation stronger.
How is increasing our debt going to solve anything?

TENNESSEAN
03-22-2010, 11:57 PM
How is increasing our debt going to solve anything?

Ignore him dawg, he's just a yankee trying to stir the pot. He don't have a horse in this race.

NateR
03-23-2010, 02:46 AM
we aren't kicking you and you aren't down ... we are praising the fact that your wonderful government has chosen to take a step in the right direction and improve your country ...

This is not the time for your patronizing comments. It's taking a lot of self-control on my part not to ban you from the site.

You have no idea what you are saying. We don't need healthcare to become the greatest country in the world. We were already the greatest country in the world. If anything this healthcare bill takes us down a few pegs and puts us into the loser, socialist dictatorship category right alongside the crappy nations like England, France, Germany and even (shudder) Canada.:sick:

NateR
03-23-2010, 02:49 AM
Ignore him dawg, he's just a yankee trying to stir the pot. He don't have a horse in this race.

How about a little demonstration of how democracy is supposed to work for our Canadian "friends"? I propose that we ban rearnakedchoke from the site for disrespecting the greatest country in the world. Whoever agrees with me say "aye."

:tongue0011:

TENNESSEAN
03-23-2010, 03:03 AM
How about a little demonstration of how democracy is supposed to work for our Canadian "friends"? I propose that we ban rearnakedchoke from the site for disrespecting the greatest country in the world. Whoever agrees with me say "aye."

:tongue0011:

I second "aye"
it really dosnt matter what we the members like as long as the mods get just enough votes for it.

Max
03-23-2010, 03:06 AM
How about a little demonstration of how democracy is supposed to work for our Canadian "friends"? I propose that we ban rearnakedchoke from the site for disrespecting the greatest country in the world. Whoever agrees with me say "aye."

:tongue0011:

im gonna go with "no". He should not be banned just because he does not agree with the political views of the people on this site.

Spiritwalker
03-23-2010, 03:12 AM
im gonna go with "no". He should not be banned just because he does not agree with the political views of the people on this site.

I (shudder) agree.

Respectfully disagree.. no worries there...

Tyburn
03-23-2010, 03:15 AM
the loser, socialist dictatorship category right alongside the crappy nations like England, France, Germany and even (shudder) Canada.:sick:


Thats right Mr Rosario...drop to his level of insults...hardly befitting of Matt Hughes webmaster now is it :mellow:

TENNESSEAN
03-23-2010, 03:28 AM
Ban them all nate this is your show don't let them push you around like this:laugh:

NateR
03-23-2010, 03:34 AM
Thats right Mr Rosario...drop to his level of insults...hardly befitting of Matt Hughes webmaster now is it :mellow:

We just watched a handful of powerhungry dictators seize control of a massive chunk of our nation's economy last night. And we saw the end of over 200 years of freedom and democracy in this country. It was like watching a loved one die and rearnakedchoke wants to come and dance on the grave?

If you don't understand why that angers me so badly, then maybe you just don't know what it means to love your country.

Rev
03-23-2010, 03:39 AM
Hey bro. I'm with you. I wouldnt come on here if the queen died and laugh about it or if anything tragic happened to canada come on be sarcastic about it. No class dude. do what you feel you have to do.

TENNESSEAN
03-23-2010, 03:47 AM
We just watched a handful of powerhungry dictators seize control of a massive chunk of our nation's economy last night. And we saw the end of over 200 years of freedom and democracy in this country. It was like watching a loved one die and rearnakedchoke wants to come and dance on the grave?

If you don't understand why that angers me so badly, then maybe you just don't know what it means to love your country.

It ain't over yet

Spiritwalker
03-23-2010, 04:01 AM
It ain't over yet

Flexing Optimism...

McCollum said the lawsuit would challenge the bill's provision requiring people to purchase health insurance, along with provisions that will force state government to spend more on health care services.

10 states line up to sue over health bill, Florida AG says

"This is a tax or a penalty on just living, and that's unconstitutional," he said of the mandate to purchase health coverage. "There's no provision in the Constitution of the United States giving Congress the power to do that."


http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/health.care.lawsuit/index.html?hpt=T1

flo
03-23-2010, 04:03 AM
I (shudder) agree.

Respectfully disagree.. no worries there...
Heh, I've got to go with Spirit on this one. Although I don't want to lose my position on the Nate suck-up list. :laugh:

That post made me really angry too. But I figured that's what he was trying to do so I'd rather just rake him over the coals for a while...make him suffer a little bit...

:happydancing:

Spiritwalker
03-23-2010, 04:05 AM
Heh, I've got to go with Spirit on this one. Although I don't want to lose my position on the Nate suck-up list. :laugh:

That post made me really angry too. But I figured that's what he was trying to do so I'd rather just rake him over the coals for a while...make him suffer a little bit...

:happydancing:



I think I have a greater distance to fall on the Suck Up list... I just happen to agree with Nate more than not...

flo
03-23-2010, 04:08 AM
Seems like a good time to post this ~

Working people frequently ask retired people what they do to make
their days interesting. Well, for example, the other day my wife and
I went into town and went into a shop. We were only in there for about
5 minutes. When we came out, there was a cop writing out a parking
ticket. We went up to him and said, "Come on man, how about giving
a senior citizen a break?"

He ignored us and continued writing the ticket. I called him a Nazi Turd.
He glared at me and started writing another ticket for having worn tires.
So my wife called him a ****head. He finished the second ticket and put
it on the windshield with the first. Then he started writing a third ticket.
This went on for about 20 minutes. The more we abused him, the more
tickets he wrote...

Personally, we didn't care. We came into town by bus and saw the car
had an Obama sticker... We try to have a little fun each day now that
we're retired.. It's important at our age.

Maldonado136
03-23-2010, 04:18 AM
^^haha nice

Maldonado136
03-23-2010, 04:21 AM
im gonna go with "no". He should not be banned just because he does not agree with the political views of the people on this site.

I thought he was joking but now im not sure lol. yikes

NateR
03-23-2010, 04:22 AM
Heh, I've got to go with Spirit on this one. Although I don't want to lose my position on the Nate suck-up list. :laugh:

That post made me really angry too. But I figured that's what he was trying to do so I'd rather just rake him over the coals for a while...make him suffer a little bit...

:happydancing:

Well, I could run this vote two ways:

1. The way that democracy is supposed to run and only act according to the results of the vote. In which case it looks like rearnakedchoke not going to be banned at this time.

2. Like Barack Obama:

take a vote
ignore all votes that disagree with what I want
do whatever I want regardless of the results of the voting
claim that I am acting according to the wishes of the voters


:laugh:

Fortunately for rearnakedchoke, I have more integrity that Barack Obama, so I he's safe from a ban.

TENNESSEAN
03-23-2010, 04:26 AM
I thought he was joking but now im not sure lol. yikes

Yea me to the :tongue0011: kinda through me off. I still say kick him to the curb.

logrus
03-23-2010, 04:46 AM
Well, I could run this vote two ways:

1. The way that democracy is supposed to run and only act according to the results of the vote. In which case it looks like rearnakedchoke not going to be banned at this time.

2. Like Barack Obama:

take a vote
ignore all votes that disagree with what I want
do whatever I want regardless of the results of the voting
claim that I am acting according to the wishes of the voters


:laugh:

Fortunately for rearnakedchoke, I have more integrity that Barack Obama, so I he's safe from a ban.

Nate yours and Obamas list looks awfully similar... :frantics:

flo
03-23-2010, 05:21 AM
Fortunately for rearnakedchoke, I have more integrity that Barack Obama

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8523/heartsfloating.png

NateR
03-23-2010, 08:01 AM
John Boehner's speech during the healthcare debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UyVgUIVI8A

I wish we had more men like him representing our country.

flo
03-23-2010, 08:06 AM
I think he will make a great Speaker of the House come November.

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 08:35 AM
I look at it this way. We are all on a forum venting about our government and the stupid choices our president is making. We have only one thing to protect and that's our freedom. We have to stop being the ones with the hearts and saying we shouldn't ban a guy because of his views. Hell that's why we are in this mess. It's people like him (rearnakedchoke) that is the reason we are going through this crap today. We have to defeat them. Do not let them defeat us. if you stand around long enough and try to be friends with him he will stab you in the back and then piss on you why you're laying there helpless. I say BAN this guy for his views not because he's not a democrat or a republican. I say Ban this guy because he shares the same views as Marxists and Socialists. Ban this guy because in a time where our Country is down and our forefathers are looking down and hoping we stand up and fight instead of just giving up, He is insult our beliefs and our Honor. He is disrespecting not only us. He's disrespecting our kids, our grandfathers, our Country and most of all our God. Please rethink this Ban and Ban him and ban anyone who thinks like him. Think of it this way. If we were in a War and our lives were on the line he would be the enemy.

Spiritwalker
03-23-2010, 12:13 PM
I look at it this way. We are all on a forum venting about our government and the stupid choices our president is making. We have only one thing to protect and that's our freedom. We have to stop being the ones with the hearts and saying we shouldn't ban a guy because of his views. Hell that's why we are in this mess. It's people like him (rearnakedchoke) that is the reason we are going through this crap today. We have to defeat them. Do not let them defeat us. if you stand around long enough and try to be friends with him he will stab you in the back and then piss on you why you're laying there helpless. I say BAN this guy for his views not because he's not a democrat or a republican. I say Ban this guy because he shares the same views as Marxists and Socialists. Ban this guy because in a time where our Country is down and our forefathers are looking down and hoping we stand up and fight instead of just giving up, He is insult our beliefs and our Honor. He is disrespecting not only us. He's disrespecting our kids, our grandfathers, our Country and most of all our God. Please rethink this Ban and Ban him and ban anyone who thinks like him. Think of it this way. If we were in a War and our lives were on the line he would be the enemy.



I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.
Douglas MacArthur

DonnaMaria
03-23-2010, 01:01 PM
we aren't kicking you and you aren't down ... we are praising the fact that your wonderful government has chosen to take a step in the right direction and improve your country ...

Is this a misery loves company kind of thing?:huh:

Of course our country needs to improve in a lot of ways, but this healthcare bill isn't the way to improve it.

Maybe we should stop giving so much aide to other countries........

maybe we should rethink welfare and stop giving money to people who don't work but continue to have children and milk the system........

maybe we should stop allowing people to sue over every little stupid thing so that insurance rates can be lower......

maybe we shouldn’t let people who get free healthcare and better benefits than any of us ever will decide what the American people need as far as healthcare reform goes.........

County Mike
03-23-2010, 01:28 PM
If the government had said something like "Everyone's income tax will go up by 5% starting January 1st 2011 and all healthcare will be immediately free for US citizens" I would have been OK with that.

Telling us we have to buy specific insurance policies to cover our potential health care is not a solution. We still won't really have national health care. We'll still have to deal with the insurance companies and what they will or won't cover. We'll still have to pay premiums based on policies that we did not choose. THAT is NOT national healthcare. It's just forcing us to buy something we might not want or need.

When the healthcare bill is several hundred pages long, something is wrong, someone is getting rich off it and the rest of us are getting screwed.

bradwright
03-23-2010, 01:37 PM
This is not the time for your patronizing comments. It's taking a lot of self-control on my part not to ban you from the site.

You have no idea what you are saying. We don't need healthcare to become the greatest country in the world. We were already the greatest country in the world. If anything this healthcare bill takes us down a few pegs and puts us into the loser, socialist dictatorship category right alongside the crappy nations like England, France, Germany and even (shudder) Canada.:sick:

i'm not sure how running down these countries benefits you in your quest to have your voice heard on the subject at hand but it doesn't look good on you personally Nate.

i have in the past debated the proposed health care reform bill with you and a few others on this site but now that it has been voted on i have chose to stay out of it and will continue to stay out of it.
just please dont drag me back into it by running down my country....thanks.:)

Tyburn
03-23-2010, 02:01 PM
We just watched a handful of powerhungry dictators seize control of a massive chunk of our nation's economy last night. And we saw the end of over 200 years of freedom and democracy in this country. It was like watching a loved one die and rearnakedchoke wants to come and dance on the grave?

If you don't understand why that angers me so badly, then maybe you just don't know what it means to love your country.

I know why it angers you Nathan...but I also know that you shouldnt drop to his level. You have something to take pride in, even if he hasnt :)

I hope they can shoot the bill down in the courts like you said before :ninja:

Tyburn
03-23-2010, 02:07 PM
If the government had said something like "Everyone's income tax will go up by 5% starting January 1st 2011 and all healthcare will be immediately free for US citizens" I would have been OK with that.

Telling us we have to buy specific insurance policies to cover our potential health care is not a solution. We still won't really have national health care. We'll still have to deal with the insurance companies and what they will or won't cover. We'll still have to pay premiums based on policies that we did not choose. THAT is NOT national healthcare. It's just forcing us to buy something we might not want or need.

When the healthcare bill is several hundred pages long, something is wrong, someone is getting rich off it and the rest of us are getting screwed.

:unsure-1: no you dont want that either...thats what we've got...thats even worse...I mean...the majority of you already have health insurance dont you...you wouldnt want to be forced to have health insurance AND have to pay a tax to cover others...

oh...and the Bill is long because it doesnt just cover Health...there was something in it about changing Student Loans :blink: WTF does student loans have to do with American health care :huh: What else is in that bill which has nothing to do with health care at all :unsure: When I read that I was like :scared0015: how is it possible under any logic period...to put a measure on Student Loans in a health reform :scared0011: Student loans is Education...can citizens get a copy of this document and actually see what is inside it...or is that not allowed :huh: I would love to know what else just passed into law under the guise of health care :ninja:

County Mike
03-23-2010, 02:20 PM
:unsure-1: no you dont want that either...thats what we've got...thats even worse...I mean...the majority of you already have health insurance dont you...you wouldnt want to be forced to have health insurance AND have to pay a tax to cover others...


I meant INSTEAD of requiring health insurance. A 5% increase in my income tax would cost me about $5000 per year. Right now I pay just under $3000 per year to insure my wife and myself. I'd gladly pay the extra $2K to know that I'd never have to worry about another medical bill and if it helps some less fortunate people, that's a bonus.

Spiritwalker
03-23-2010, 02:35 PM
I meant INSTEAD of requiring health insurance. A 5% increase in my income tax would cost me about $5000 per year. Right now I pay just under $3000 per year to insure my wife and myself. I'd gladly pay the extra $2K to know that I'd never have to worry about another medical bill and if it helps some less fortunate people, that's a bonus.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh286/mmarks_2008/robocop.jpg

Tyburn
03-23-2010, 03:19 PM
I meant INSTEAD of requiring health insurance. A 5% increase in my income tax would cost me about $5000 per year. Right now I pay just under $3000 per year to insure my wife and myself. I'd gladly pay the extra $2K to know that I'd never have to worry about another medical bill and if it helps some less fortunate people, that's a bonus.

ohh...Well I dont have health insurance...I just have the extra on the tax :laugh:

We tried to get health insurance to cover me on my US trip last september...I think we had some type but it was rather confusing...i've never had to do much insurance things before :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
03-23-2010, 04:15 PM
wow .. almost banned ...

anyways, i know this bill may not be perfect ... i think it will be defeated, and when it does, i will come to that thread and be happy with everyone ...

i think this bill will be a boost for the economy ... yes the 1 trillion is a boat load of money, but this will create jobs and will create spending ... however, I don't think it will live long enough for people to see that ...

Robertboxerboy
03-23-2010, 04:53 PM
Its a form of socialism and dictatorship. The two forms of government our fore fathers created our Constitution to stop. I don't see this helping at all. By passing this bill Obama can now start turning our gov't into a communist gov't like he wants. Goodbye freedom. Im moving to Texas

NateR
03-23-2010, 06:19 PM
yes the 1 trillion is a boat load of money,

$1 trillion in imaginary money is not going to help anyone. There is only enough gold, in the entire world, to back up about $8 billion worth of American money and we're already heading for a $10 trillion deficit, thanks to Obama.

Exactly how is pumping a bunch of Monopoly™ money into our economy going to help? All we are doing is setting ourselves up for hyper-inflation, which will have the unintended side effect of making all Americans equal..... equally poor and destitute.

Read about hyper-inflation in Germany and tell me that we are not driving full speed down the exact same road. Right now a loaf of bread costs $2.00 at the grocery store, by the time Obama runs for reelection, a loaf of bread could cost $10. If, GOD forbid, he wins reelection, a loaf of bread could cost over $100 billion by the time his second term is up and I'm not even exaggerating with these numbers.. Read your history.

This is a graph outlining the hyper-inflation of German Marks from 1918-1923. This could be our future as well, thanks to Obama's out of control spending:
http://oversightcommittee.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Hyperinflation-German-Mark.bmp

rearnakedchoke
03-23-2010, 06:43 PM
i am not doubting that it is a lot of money ... but i think this is something that should be at least tried ... i don't see it as being a loss of freedom, or unconstitutional ... it may not even be the right way for the US ... so, if it gets wings, it will be tried out .. if it fails, at least it was given a shot ... who knows, maybe it works and people are happy with it ...

County Mike
03-23-2010, 06:46 PM
The problem is, if we're not happy with it it doesn't matter. We'll be stuck with it.

flo
03-23-2010, 06:48 PM
Of course our country needs to improve in a lot of ways, but this healthcare bill isn't the way to improve it.

Maybe we should stop giving so much aide to other countries........

maybe we should rethink welfare and stop giving money to people who don't work but continue to have children and milk the system........

maybe we should stop allowing people to sue over every little stupid thing so that insurance rates can be lower......

maybe we shouldn’t let people who get free healthcare and better benefits than any of us ever will decide what the American people need as far as healthcare reform goes.........

Good points, DonnaMaria, I'm on board with all those.

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 06:50 PM
It's already been tried. It's called Romneycare and it sucks.

NateR
03-23-2010, 06:51 PM
The problem is, if we're not happy with it it doesn't matter. We'll be stuck with it.

It would probably require a Constitutional amendment to get the government out of private industries like healthcare, banks and car manufacturers. However, that's not impossible, look how prohibition was repealed.

Unfortunately, the process would take years.

NateR
03-23-2010, 06:55 PM
i am not doubting that it is a lot of money ... but i think this is something that should be at least tried ... i don't see it as being a loss of freedom, or unconstitutional ... it may not even be the right way for the US ... so, if it gets wings, it will be tried out .. if it fails, at least it was given a shot ... who knows, maybe it works and people are happy with it ...

You forget that you are talking to someone who lived with free, government-run healthcare for over 10 years in the US Army. That experience is the primary reason that I KNOW this plan will fail.

Just look at how our government has mismanaged Medicare and Social Security. Look at the efficiency of government run organizations like the Post Office or the State-run Department of Motor Vehicles.

Our national leaders have already proven themselves to be incompetent businessmen, so why should we even risk allowing them control over our health and the health of our families?

Chris F
03-23-2010, 06:57 PM
Nothing having by threat of law the requirement to buy insurance. The only money that will be made here is by those who already have it. This does nothing to help 90% of Americans.

rearnakedchoke
03-23-2010, 07:00 PM
Is this a misery loves company kind of thing?:huh:

Of course our country needs to improve in a lot of ways, but this healthcare bill isn't the way to improve it.

Maybe we should stop giving so much aide to other countries........

maybe we should rethink welfare and stop giving money to people who don't work but continue to have children and milk the system........

maybe we should stop allowing people to sue over every little stupid thing so that insurance rates can be lower......

maybe we shouldn’t let people who get free healthcare and better benefits than any of us ever will decide what the American people need as far as healthcare reform goes.........
i agree ... there are plenty of areas for improvement with all countries .... and there are always going to be people taking advantage when they can ...

i pray that this bill works out for you as it has for other countries ... i think the best balance may be a two-tiered system, which i think is what your bill aims to be ....

rearnakedchoke
03-23-2010, 07:04 PM
You forget that you are talking to someone who lived with free, government-run healthcare for over 10 years in the US Army. That experience is the primary reason that I KNOW this plan will fail.

Just look at how our government has mismanaged Medicare and Social Security. Look at the efficiency of government run organizations like the Post Office or the State-run Department of Motor Vehicles.

Our national leaders have already proven themselves to be incompetent businessmen, so why should we even risk allowing them control over our health and the health of our families?

again, and i tell you from experience in a country that has had gov't run healtcare .. will it be the same? probably not, but i have never, nor my family has ever run into any issues with getting poor care ... maybe i have been lucky ... i have had family who needed immediate care, and they got it ... maybe i am living in a dreamworld because i am in a large city and have close access to hospitals, clinics and there are so many that i have never had to wait ... who knows how it is like in less populated areas ...

flo
03-23-2010, 07:17 PM
My 2 biggest concerns are forcing people to buy something (ins. policy, with fines enforced by the IRS if you don't comply) and the costs.

Congressional Republicans continue to challenge the fiscal assessment by the Congressional Budget Office that the plan would reduce budget deficits by $143 billion over a decade and more than $1.2 trillion in the second ten years.

Sen. Judd Gregg, the ranking Republican on the Senate Budget Committee, said Tuesday that if more realistic assumptions are made, the health care plan would increase budget deficits by $618 billion over the first ten years and $1.8 trillion over twenty years.

Among other things, Gregg said the CBO estimate does not include $114 billion in new discretionary spending over the next ten years and does include $529 billion in Medicare savings which he said are unrealistic given that the program has unfunded liabilities of $38 trillion.

Those are quotes from this link ~
http://imarketnews.com/node/10725
Market News, an unbiased source, AFAIK.

It's bad enough that China holds our purse-strings and has the upper hand in trade and, to a small extent, an impact on some of our foreign policy decisions. And it's not like I'm blaming BO for all that, Bush spent too much also!!! But this has to stop now! Our debt is 83% of our GDP and baby boomers will soon be drawing on social security (which our gov't has already spent and replaced with IOUs! Remember the Gore "lock box"???).

If debt from this bill (combined with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.) exceeds 100% of GDP, our country is bankrupted.

rearnakedchoke
03-23-2010, 07:20 PM
My 2 biggest concerns are forcing people to buy something (ins. policy, with fines enforced by the IRS if you don't comply) and the costs.



Those are quotes from this link ~
http://imarketnews.com/node/10725
Market News, an unbiased source, AFAIK.

It's bad enough that China holds our purse-strings and has the upper hand in trade and, to a small extent, an impact on some of our foreign policy decisions. And it's not like I'm blaming BO for all that, Bush spent too much also!!! But this has to stop now! Our debt is 83% of our GDP and baby boomers will soon be drawing on social security (which our gov't has already spent and replaced with IOUs! Remember the Gore "lock box"???).

If debt from this bill (combined with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.) exceeds 100% of GDP, our country is bankrupted.

i have a question ....

what happens if someone is walking across the street and gets hits by a car ... if they are treated and they have no insurance, who pays the fees?

flo
03-23-2010, 08:02 PM
Auto insurance is required in all states; included in that is coverage for medical payments.

Yes, rearnakedchoke, sometimes PEOPLE have to pay their own bills...like my brother who had no ins. whose wife needed an MRI ($1600). He got a credit card with the cheapest interest rate and paid it off once they were both working. He doesn't want this "health care" bill either.

BTW, I didn't have insurance when I was in my 20's and I didn't want or need any. I would have been very angry if someone had tried to FORCE me to buy it.

A lot more people would BE insured if our government would get back to worrying about JOBS.

County Mike
03-23-2010, 08:06 PM
The funny thing is, they're calling it "National Health Care" but it's really just "National Force you to buy Insurance". Having insurance isn't really all that great. You still pay co-pays, deductibles, anything over the policy limit and the insurance company always seems to find ways to deny your claims.

I'd be much more receptive to REAL national healthcare. Pay extra taxes, all medical bills and prescriptions are free. Forcing us to buy insurance and not letting us choose the policy terms doesn't fix anything at all.

rearnakedchoke
03-23-2010, 08:10 PM
The funny thing is, they're calling it "National Health Care" but it's really just "National Force you to buy Insurance". Having insurance isn't really all that great. You still pay co-pays, deductibles, anything over the policy limit and the insurance company always seems to find ways to deny your claims.

I'd be much more receptive to REAL national healthcare. Pay extra taxes, all medical bills and prescriptions are free. Forcing us to buy insurance and not letting us choose the policy terms doesn't fix anything at all.

yeah, we don't need insurance .. our prescriptions aren't paid for, but operations, doctors visits and stuff are .... most cosmetic surgeries aren't covered ... you usually have to wait for elective surgery, but i think you can get a date pretty quick if you were in a hurry .. we also have private clinics, so if you didn't want to hang out in an office with the common folk, you could go to one of them ... and if you really had the money, you could go to the US to have your operation or whatever ....

County Mike
03-23-2010, 08:15 PM
I like that idea better. Basic medical needs met 100% free.

Elective surgeries you pay for privately. I could definitely live with that.

(Essentially what we have now. If someone is in danger of dying, they get treatment whether they have insurance or not.) For everything else, you gotta pay.

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 08:16 PM
I think people should not get back 9 or 10 thousand dollars back at tax time if they only made $10,000 for the year. People should only get back a percentage of what they pay in to taxes. Just imagine how much money could be saved.

County Mike
03-23-2010, 08:18 PM
I think people should not get back 9 or 10 thousand dollars back at tax time if they only made $10,000 for the year. People should only get back a percentage of what they pay in to taxes. Just imagine how much money could be saved.

Who gets a refund that almost matches what they made? I've known of some who get back every cent they paid because they make so little, but nobody gets back MORE than they paid that I know of.

TexasRN
03-23-2010, 08:21 PM
Who gets a refund that almost matches what they made? I've known of some who get back every cent they paid because they make so little, but nobody gets back MORE than they paid that I know of.

I'm pretty sure I'll be paying this year but I'm hoping to break even. I used to get money back when the ex was in the military and we made next to nothing for a family of 4.

Like you, I've never heard of anyone getting more money than what they paid in.


~Amy

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 08:22 PM
One thing I think the Government needs to toughen up on is food stamps and people on unemployment. I think that before you can get any government assistance you should be drug tested and be made to put in applications. at least 10 a month until you find a job. I also think that we need to take a look at how many people are driving $50,000 cars and who are on welfare. This to me would be very easy to do. I do think the Government needs to toughen up but only on systems they already have in place and to be honest with you a Private company might just do a whole better job.

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 08:24 PM
My wife is a manager of a walmart. She knows what some people get paid at her store and she personally had to sign for a couple to get checks cashed. One girl made around $11,000 and got back a little over $9,000. They will give you like $3,000 per kid in south Carolina. It's a little hard to believe but it's crazy.

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 08:27 PM
Why should you get back what you put into something. To me thats very crazy. I think you should have to pay taxes and if anything you should get back only a percentage of what you put in.

mscomc
03-23-2010, 08:53 PM
yeah, we don't need insurance .. our prescriptions aren't paid for, but operations, doctors visits and stuff are .... most cosmetic surgeries aren't covered ... you usually have to wait for elective surgery, but i think you can get a date pretty quick if you were in a hurry .. we also have private clinics, so if you didn't want to hang out in an office with the common folk, you could go to one of them ... and if you really had the money, you could go to the US to have your operation or whatever ....

Hmm, i think an area of concern here is that this 'obamacare' is identical to how we operate our health service here in canada....ITS NOT. Having looked at some of the finer details of this new US bill, i fully agree with people on this forum who are upset. Being forced to buy insurance and then getting penalized if you don't is pretty bad.

NateR
03-23-2010, 09:18 PM
Hmm, i think an area of concern here is that this 'obamacare' is identical to how we operate our health service here in canada....ITS NOT. Having looked at some of the finer details of this new US bill, i fully agree with people on this forum who are upset. Being forced to buy insurance and then getting penalized if you don't is pretty bad.

Exactly, this is not healthcare reform, it's nothing more than an insurance company bailout.

The logic behind forcing people to buy insurance as a way to combat rising healthcare costs makes no sense whatsoever. Especially in a time of double digit unemployment numbers.

Either the Democrats are unthinking morons or there is some other motive behind this bill that has absolutely nothing to do with healthcare.

Considering the fact that this is the biggest power grab by a US President in the entire history of our nation, then I think that makes Obama the most power-hungry dictator that America has ever seen and he is currently the most dangerous enemy of America living today.

flo
03-23-2010, 09:45 PM
Who gets a refund that almost matches what they made? I've known of some who get back every cent they paid because they make so little, but nobody gets back MORE than they paid that I know of.

Absolutely right. The federal taxes are the same in every state.

Anyone working for someone else gets a fixed rate of Social Security taxes deducted from their check. The amount people get back in tax returns is from withholding taxes which are also figured from a fixed schedule (10% to 35%) depending if you are single, married filing jointly, or married filing separately, and the amount you have earned.

If someone only made $10,000 a year, believe me, they would not pay anything in withholding tax and very little in social security. The individual deduction, IIRC for 2009 was $9,600 so that would give them a net taxable income of $400. They would get back all withholding taxes they paid in.

flo
03-23-2010, 09:50 PM
My wife is a manager of a walmart. She knows what some people get paid at her store and she personally had to sign for a couple to get checks cashed. One girl made around $11,000 and got back a little over $9,000. They will give you like $3,000 per kid in south Carolina. It's a little hard to believe but it's crazy.

Sorry, but that just cannot be true! If she made $11,000 she would NEVER have paid in ~$9,000!! You are mixing up the actual amount refunded to the amount deducted from her gross income. She would indeed have gotten $9,600 (the amount I talked about in my previous post) reduced from her gross income so that she would get back all she paid in withholding (around $1100). That doesn't mean she got $9,000 back in a tax refun.

Take my word for it, I did payroll back in the dark ages and the only thing that has changed, basically, are tax rates.

flo
03-23-2010, 09:56 PM
They will give you like $3,000 per kid in south Carolina. It's a little hard to believe but it's crazy.

That's wrong. Once again, that is simply claiming your child as a deduction. It reduces your gross income but the IRS doesn't give you the deduction in dollars! This is why you pay taxes on NET income.

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 10:20 PM
I wish I was wrong but I am not mixing any numbers up. For instance my sister made like $7,800 working at a gas station last year. She is married and her husband is not working. They have two kids. She received $4,003.26. Explain how. She received E.I.C. (earned income credit) This is the kind of thing I am ticked off by. I wish I was making this stuff up but I think my wife knows a bit about what people make and knows what kind of checks are cashed. Specially when she has to sign off on most checks that are cashed.

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 10:23 PM
I was wrong at the $11,000 though. She made a little over $13,000 now thats not counting if her husband made anything. That part i do not know. The most ridiculous thing is my sister receiving so much while earning so little. If I am wrong I would like to know how she received so much.

Bonnie
03-23-2010, 10:29 PM
Is this a misery loves company kind of thing?:huh:

Of course our country needs to improve in a lot of ways, but this healthcare bill isn't the way to improve it.

Maybe we should stop giving so much aide to other countries........

maybe we should rethink welfare and stop giving money to people who don't work but continue to have children and milk the system........

maybe we should stop allowing people to sue over every little stupid thing so that insurance rates can be lower......

maybe we shouldn’t let people who get free healthcare and better benefits than any of us ever will decide what the American people need as far as healthcare reform goes.........

They (Congress and the President or any elected official for that matter) should not get anything that we can't get. Why couldn't they simply give us the same healthcare plan they have? We elect these good-for-nothings and that's what they give us....NOTHING GOOD!!! :angry:

Btw, I'm voting for you next election, DonnaMaria. :laugh:

donaldbreland
03-23-2010, 10:35 PM
I think the only true American out there that can save us is Glen Beck. I mean he called these shots. He said this thing would pass when we didn't want to believe it. He is smarter than anyone in Congress or any politician out there. i hope he runs.

rockdawg21
03-23-2010, 11:45 PM
I think the only true American out there that can save us is Glen Beck. I mean he called these shots. He said this thing would pass when we didn't want to believe it. He is smarter than anyone in Congress or any politician out there. i hope he runs.
I would love to see Glenn Beck run! I took a class taught by Newt Gingirch; he is a man who definitely knows exactly how things changed and why they changed. Whether or not he could revert the situation, I'm not sure.

I'd vote for either one of these guys in a heart beat.

Glenn Beck for President as a member of the Tea Party! :happydancing:

donaldbreland
03-24-2010, 12:00 AM
You mean someone actually agrees with me lol.

flo
03-24-2010, 12:16 AM
I wish I was wrong but I am not mixing any numbers up. For instance my sister made like $7,800 working at a gas station last year. She is married and her husband is not working. They have two kids. She received $4,003.26. Explain how. She received E.I.C. (earned income credit) This is the kind of thing I am ticked off by. I wish I was making this stuff up but I think my wife knows a bit about what people make and knows what kind of checks are cashed. Specially when she has to sign off on most checks that are cashed.

Donald, I was a bookkeeper for years and did taxes and payroll not only for our own business but for other companies. You are going to have to take my word on this. If your sister made only $7800 last year, she could not have paid in $4003.26. If they sent her $4003.26, she would have to have paid IN that much, that's why the IRS calls it a refund. Even Bill Gates doesn't pay 51% in taxes. If the IRS sent her that much, she better be prepared to pay interest on their mistake because they can't refund what you haven't paid!

The IRS only collects taxes and issues refunds, they don't pay out government entitlements.

flo
03-24-2010, 12:18 AM
I was wrong at the $11,000 though. She made a little over $13,000 now thats not counting if her husband made anything. That part i do not know. The most ridiculous thing is my sister receiving so much while earning so little. If I am wrong I would like to know how she received so much.

Did they get unemployment? That is considered income by the IRS and would increase their gross wages.

donaldbreland
03-24-2010, 12:46 AM
How did she receive a check for that amount. Maybe people should look into south carolina. I for one know for a fact of what she made and I know what she received. I do not think it's right. I'm not saying she payed in $4,000. I pay 23% of what I make to the Government. I own a small business and I have 12 employees. I will ask to make sure though. I don't think I am wrong but hey I am a man so I am wrong most of the time. i will let you know though lol.

rearnakedchoke
03-24-2010, 12:54 AM
I think the only true American out there that can save us is Glen Beck. I mean he called these shots. He said this thing would pass when we didn't want to believe it. He is smarter than anyone in Congress or any politician out there. i hope he runs.

Bobby Jindal will help you out ... he will be the next US president

donaldbreland
03-24-2010, 12:57 AM
We don't need another Obama in the White House. Bobby is no better. He does not stand a chance in the White House. If he does get it I will buy you a Pepsi ever day of the year.

rearnakedchoke
03-24-2010, 01:00 AM
We don't need another Obama in the White House. Bobby is no better. He does not stand a chance in the White House. If he does get it I will buy you a Pepsi ever day of the year.

how is he an obama?

DonnaMaria
03-24-2010, 01:52 AM
They (Congress and the President or any elected official for that matter) should not get anything that we can't get. Why couldn't they simply give us the same healthcare plan they have? We elect these good-for-nothings and that's what they give us....NOTHING GOOD!!! :angry:

Btw, I'm voting for you next election, DonnaMaria. :laugh:

Aww thanks Bonnie! But I can't be elected! I have ties to the mob!:scared0011:

oh wait! Maybe I CAN be elected! :)

flo
03-24-2010, 03:15 AM
Aww thanks Bonnie! But I can't be elected! I have ties to the mob!:scared0011:



:laugh::laugh:

Maybe that's a good thing! Just think how easy it would be to win votes for your bills, lol!!

logrus
03-24-2010, 03:17 AM
Look at all the whining still lol. :frantics:

Rev
03-24-2010, 03:22 AM
I have met Jindal and the only personality he has is what his writers give him. He is a nice guy but we dont need anymore nice guys in office.

AMJ
03-24-2010, 03:47 AM
Our forefathers were very wise men and divided the power between the three branches to serve as a way to have "checks and balances" so that no one branch held ALL the power.

They also wanted the separation of Church and State, Bonnie.


Although I believe the American health care system needs extensive overhaul, what really needs to be addressed is the Federal Deficit. What the states needs is a leader who can put this country back on the road of fiscal responsibility by just ending the wars and put the focus back on domestic issues.

America can't solve every single problem in this world nor should they have to.

donaldbreland
03-24-2010, 04:11 AM
I don't think putting an end to the war is the answer. I think we should be over there fighting just for the simple fact that they tried to hurt our country. I do how ever think we should stop spending so much money on helping out countries when a natural disaster strikes. Help America first. I say we should send men over to help for certain reasons but stop spending so much money on feeding those people. How can they feed someone in another country when someone over here is starving.

J.B.
03-24-2010, 04:18 AM
They also wanted the separation of Church and State, Bonnie.


Although I believe the American health care system needs extensive overhaul, what really needs to be addressed is the Federal Deficit. What the states needs is a leader who can put this country back on the road of fiscal responsibility by just ending the wars and put the focus back on domestic issues.

America can't solve every single problem in this world nor should they have to.

So, what happens when the world's problems show up in our country, like in the form of a terrorist attack? It's so easy to sit back and say "just end the wars", but it's not that cut and dry, is it? It's not an Xbox game that you can just turn off and say "I'm not playing anymore".

As long as there are groups of people that are out to destroy us we are going to spend money on defending our nation. When those groups are as large as the ones in today's radical Islamic sectors, we will have to combat them at any cost. That's not to say we will indefinitely have to combat all the threats by putting soldiers in other countries, but a some times, throughout history, we have to do it and this has been one of those times.

donaldbreland
03-24-2010, 04:39 AM
This is what needs to happen. We need to all come together and stand up and fight against what our President is doing. We the People of this Country can take our Country back. I am telling you this right now. Glen Beck is as good of a candidate as any to do the job.

surveyorshawn
03-24-2010, 08:07 PM
This legislation does not solve anything. Insurance is a racket, and always has been. All this does is guarantee the insurance companies business and clientele. Insurance companies sell you a policy and take a gamble that you won't need it. They win the overwhelming majority of the time, or they wouldn't still be in business, think about it, people! Now the government is, like Nate said, bailing them out. If this was healthcare reform, the government would be getting into the public healthcare business, or would be severely reforming the insurance system and just expanding medicaid coverage beyond children & pregnant women so other poor people could qualify. If we are going to force people to buy products, then force all property owners to have a property survey every 5 years, that way I can pay to afford the new "healthcare" legislation, because I will be guaranteed an income like the insurance companies are now! Forcing people to buy insurance does not solve the problem of people who have been turned down or who can't afford it.

Spiritwalker
03-24-2010, 08:29 PM
So THIS is what HITTING THE FREAKING NAIL ON THE HEAD .. REALLY looks like!!!


Very Well Said Sir!


This legislation does not solve anything. Insurance is a racket, and always has been. All this does is guarantee the insurance companies business and clientele. Insurance companies sell you a policy and take a gamble that you won't need it. They win the overwhelming majority of the time, or they wouldn't still be in business, think about it, people! Now the government is, like Nate said, bailing them out. If this was healthcare reform, the government would be getting into the public healthcare business, or would be severely reforming the insurance system and just expanding medicaid coverage beyond children & pregnant women so other poor people could qualify. If we are going to force people to buy products, then force all property owners to have a property survey every 5 years, that way I can pay to afford the new "healthcare" legislation, because I will be guaranteed an income like the insurance companies are now! Forcing people to buy insurance does not solve the problem of people who have been turned down or who can't afford it.

Chuck
03-24-2010, 08:38 PM
This legislation does not solve anything. Insurance is a racket, and always has been. All this does is guarantee the insurance companies business and clientele. Insurance companies sell you a policy and take a gamble that you won't need it. They win the overwhelming majority of the time, or they wouldn't still be in business, think about it, people! Now the government is, like Nate said, bailing them out. If this was healthcare reform, the government would be getting into the public healthcare business, or would be severely reforming the insurance system and just expanding medicaid coverage beyond children & pregnant women so other poor people could qualify. If we are going to force people to buy products, then force all property owners to have a property survey every 5 years, that way I can pay to afford the new "healthcare" legislation, because I will be guaranteed an income like the insurance companies are now! Forcing people to buy insurance does not solve the problem of people who have been turned down or who can't afford it.

I agree that this won't solve anything but that's about all I agree with in your post my friend. I think the rest of it reminds me of something falling out of the north end of a southbound horse. :tongue0011:

Insurance of any kind is no more a racket then companies that manufacture flare guns, life jackets or seat belts. You're protecting yourself against a known risk. Nobody would ever return a car to the dealership after a year and expect a refund because their airbag wasn't used but somehow paying for insurance of any kind that people don't use makes us feel "cheated". I've never understood that personally.

The biggest problem with this legislation is it's all about health insurance reform and very little about health care reform. Once Congress has the guts to tackle the attorneys then you will see true health care reform.

Chuck
03-24-2010, 08:39 PM
So THIS is what HITTING THE FREAKING NAIL ON THE HEAD .. REALLY looks like!!!


Very Well Said Sir!

Looked more like a foul tip to me. :D

:tongue0011:

surveyorshawn
03-24-2010, 09:33 PM
I must be one of the few people on here who doesn't think it necessary to insult others when I disagree with them. Insurance has long been considered a racket. Let me pay someone a one time fee to provide me with health insurance, much like buying a life jacket, then. Life jackets aren't more expensive if the water gets choppier, or if I have less experience in a boat. They are pretty much all the same. When I pay to insure my new vehicle, I pay a certain amount per month/quarter/year, or whatever. Does the rate go down as the vehicle depreciates and it becomes cheaper for the insurance company to repair or replace it? Nope. When I buy health insurance, I am betting with the insurance company. They are betting I won't get sick & they won't have to pay, and I am betting I will get sick and they will have to pay. Either way, I lose. If I don't get catastrophically ill, I will never get back the value of the premiums I have paid....not even close. If I do get catastrophically ill, of course I'll be in the vast minority, but I will still have to pay deductibles and all the out of pocket expenses and non-covered items, plus anything after the maximum lifetime benefit. Plus, although this new law may change it, if I am sickly, they may drop me or increase my rates exponentially. I know this because I have friends and family in that very situation. The insurance companies have their businesses set up so they will not lose. Of course, or they would not still be in business! The goal is to turn as much profit as possible, not to provide a service. It is a business, not a charity.
You're probably a cool guy, Chuck. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. Let's not insult one another because they differ, how about it?

Tyburn
03-24-2010, 09:37 PM
I must be one of the few people on here who doesn't think it necessary to insult others when I disagree with them.


you probably are :ninja: and thats really disheartening aint it :sad:

Twinsmama
03-24-2010, 09:39 PM
I agree that this won't solve anything but that's about all I agree with in your post my friend. I think the rest of it reminds me of something falling out of the north end of a southbound horse. :tongue0011:

Insurance of any kind is no more a racket then companies that manufacture flare guns, life jackets or seat belts. You're protecting yourself against a known risk. Nobody would ever return a car to the dealership after a year and expect a refund because their airbag wasn't used but somehow paying for insurance of any kind that people don't use makes us feel "cheated". I've never understood that personally.

The biggest problem with this legislation is it's all about health insurance reform and very little about health care reform. Once Congress has the guts to tackle the attorneys then you will see true health care reform.

I agree with Chuck....(I wonder what business we are in?haha) I personally hear people complain about insurance companies ripping them off everyday. I don't sell life or health insurance though. In Florida many companies have stopped writing insurance for homes because they aren't making enough of a profit. Trust me if the insurance companies stop making money there will be a big shift and prices will go through the roof.

Shawn I would have thought that since your son was in the hospital so much you would be all for insurance. I can't imagine how much that would have cost you. Did your insurance company give you problems or something? If that is too personal you don't need to answer.

Twinsmama
03-24-2010, 09:52 PM
I must be one of the few people on here who doesn't think it necessary to insult others when I disagree with them. Insurance has long been considered a racket. Let me pay someone a one time fee to provide me with health insurance, much like buying a life jacket, then. Life jackets aren't more expensive if the water gets choppier, or if I have less experience in a boat. They are pretty much all the same. When I pay to insure my new vehicle, I pay a certain amount per month/quarter/year, or whatever. Does the rate go down as the vehicle depreciates and it becomes cheaper for the insurance company to repair or replace it? Nope. When I buy health insurance, I am betting with the insurance company. They are betting I won't get sick & they won't have to pay, and I am betting I will get sick and they will have to pay. Either way, I lose. If I don't get catastrophically ill, I will never get back the value of the premiums I have paid....not even close. If I do get catastrophically ill, of course I'll be in the vast minority, but I will still have to pay deductibles and all the out of pocket expenses and non-covered items, plus anything after the maximum lifetime benefit. Plus, although this new law may change it, if I am sickly, they may drop me or increase my rates exponentially. I know this because I have friends and family in that very situation. The insurance companies have their businesses set up so they will not lose. Of course, or they would not still be in business! The goal is to turn as much profit as possible, not to provide a service. It is a business, not a charity.
You're probably a cool guy, Chuck. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. Let's not insult one another because they differ, how about it?


Not everyone insults on here. Just the old grumpy ones:laugh:. If insurance has long been thought of as a racket it wouldn't still be around. The life jacket idea is flawed. Health insurance continues to go up be statistically people have more health problems as they age. Life jackets may not be more expensive if the water were choppy but wouldn't you want to be wearing one in case you had a problem. Your auto rates should adjust as the value of the vehicle decreases, as you age the rate should also go down. What keeps driving the premiums up is so many lawsuits. The liability section (because that's what pays out if you are sued) not the section that covers your vehicle.

I don't believe in requiring people to purchase insurance but it would be nice to know that when someone doesn't pay their bill my insurance premiums don't go up to off set some of the loss. I wonder what percentage of people that don't have insurance actually pay their medical bills. By medical bills I'm thinking hospital type bills (something more than just a regular doctor visit) Wishful thinking I suppose.

Tyburn
03-24-2010, 09:53 PM
Not everyone insults on here. Just the old grumpy ones:laugh:.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: how true, how true :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I'm young at heart...can I count as an exclusion please :ashamed:

:laugh:

surveyorshawn
03-24-2010, 11:04 PM
If insurance has long been thought of as a racket it wouldn't still be around Well, not actually. Lots of things are a racket or crooked & are still around. The gambling industry is one...it is geared for you to lose, yet people flock there & spend money. I don't mean it is rigged, I mean the odds are stacked against you and for the house. Insurance is the same way. Several years ago I looked at insurance with doctor's visit coverage. That coverage was an additional $50/month per person. At the time, a dr visit in my town was about $30. So, just to get my money's worth, I would have to go to the dr about 1.5 times every month, which, of course, I do not normally do. I only went 3 or 4o times a year at most. Unless you suffer a catastrophic illness, you will never recover the premiums you have paid. If that was not true, they would not still be in business. Here in Mississippi, several companies almost went under, and tried to refuse coverage in the Southern part of the state after Hurricane Katrina because they actually had to pay out (imagine that) because of all the claims, but the government would not let them, and they had to suck it up. Your auto rates should adjust as the value of the vehicle decreases, as you age the rate should also go down My auto rates have never adjusted down, and not just the liability amounts, but the collision/comprehensive as well, and I have used different companies. I'm not saying that no insurance is worth having. I'm saying it is just designed to make money, and I do not want to be forced to purchase it or be fined for not purchasing it. I'm all for reforming insurance practices, making it more affordable, and expanding programs for the poor. There are things in the bill that I am okay with. I have auto insurance, lol. I wear my seatbelt and have airbags. I wear a life jacket while in a boat, lol.

Unfortunately, I cannot get my son on insurance because of his heart condition. I did not have insurance when he was born, and cannot get it now. I also cannot get it, because I am in the process of being diagnosed with MS, and I can't afford it now anyway, even if I didn't have that condition. Thank goodness I am a veteran and I can go to the VA for a lot of my health care needs. I have not been able to work in a couple of months because I am in the middle of a relapse of the MS, but the economy is so bad right now that I have not gotten very many calls for surveys anyway, so I haven't actually missed much work if you look at it like that.

County Mike
03-24-2010, 11:12 PM
I didn't see where Chuck insulted Shawn when he disagreed. I think you might be reading into something that isn't there. "foul tip" is hardly an insult. Maybe I just have thicker skin when it comes to forum postings.

surveyorshawn
03-24-2010, 11:31 PM
I didn't see where Chuck insulted Shawn when he disagreed. I think you might be reading into something that isn't there. "foul tip" is hardly an insult. Maybe I just have thicker skin when it comes to forum postings.

Lol, you gotta scroll up one more to see where he said the rest of my post looked like something that fell out of the North end of a south bound horse. I guess I was just raised a little differently, or maybe I am old enough to have been in enough arguments to talk to folks a little more respectably. I will admit I'm a bit too nice at times, though, much to my detriment.

J.B.
03-25-2010, 12:38 AM
you probably are :ninja: and thats really disheartening aint it :sad:

Somebody is being a "Negative Nancy"...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3373580485_df15a9947e.jpg

Tyburn
03-25-2010, 12:54 AM
Somebody is being a "Negative Nancy"...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3373580485_df15a9947e.jpg

:laugh:

logrus
03-25-2010, 01:08 AM
Lol, you gotta scroll up one more to see where he said the rest of my post looked like something that fell out of the North end of a south bound horse. I guess I was just raised a little differently, or maybe I am old enough to have been in enough arguments to talk to folks a little more respectably. I will admit I'm a bit too nice at times, though, much to my detriment.

Gotta be careful with Chuck, he tells some pretty bad jokes from time to time... :laugh:

AMJ
03-25-2010, 03:22 AM
So, what happens when the world's problems show up in our country, like in the form of a terrorist attack? It's so easy to sit back and say "just end the wars", but it's not that cut and dry, is it? It's not an Xbox game that you can just turn off and say "I'm not playing anymore".

As long as there are groups of people that are out to destroy us we are going to spend money on defending our nation. When those groups are as large as the ones in today's radical Islamic sectors, we will have to combat them at any cost. That's not to say we will indefinitely have to combat all the threats by putting soldiers in other countries, but a some times, throughout history, we have to do it and this has been one of those times.


The reason it hasn't been easy is because there was never a long-term strategy for either war. The underlying assumption was that Afghanistan and Iraq were going to be easily handled in one giant attack, which they initially were. However, fast forward 7 years, and we are now effectively policing these countries because neither state has the civic institutions (millitary, police, courts, government, i.e. democratic framework) to really handle the situation. We are simply throwing money at the issue without having a plan. We are now financing this entire operation on China's money, which we will have to pay back, with interest might I add.

In effect, we are fighting a war and policing both countries, which simply isn't financially viable as seen by rapidly increasing debt this country has undertaken. As a result of the expenditures for these wars, we are sacrificing on investing in our own economy, healthcare, education, infrastructure, energy, etc.

You can combat terrorism through other initiatives and if you would like see some theories and read about our progress on countering terrorism, read this report that was presented to Congress.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL33160.pdf


On Al-Jazeera, Bin Laden basically said this was Al-Qaeda's plan, and if we don't eventually find a solution or have some type of exit-strategy, America's debt level will reach ridiculous levels. (it already has actually)

CAIRO, Egypt -- Osama bin Laden said he is trying to bankrupt the United States through its war on terror, a strategy he says felled the Soviet Union two decades ago in Afghanistan, according to a translation by al-Jazeera television of his full, videotaped statement.

The al-Qaida leader boasted in his first appearance in more than a year that for every $1 his terrorist organization has spent on strikes, it has cost the United States $1 million in economic fallout and military spending, including emergency funding for Iraq and Afghanistan.

"As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers," bin Laden said, estimating the deficit at more than


This can't continue to happen.

flo
03-25-2010, 03:56 AM
I will admit I'm a bit too nice at times, though, much to my detriment.

Not to your detriment, I'm glad you're that way. :happydancing:

flo
03-25-2010, 03:56 AM
Especially with what you all are going through, Shawn.

Chuck
03-25-2010, 04:12 AM
I must be one of the few people on here who doesn't think it necessary to insult others when I disagree with them. Insurance has long been considered a racket. Let me pay someone a one time fee to provide me with health insurance, much like buying a life jacket, then. Life jackets aren't more expensive if the water gets choppier, or if I have less experience in a boat. They are pretty much all the same. When I pay to insure my new vehicle, I pay a certain amount per month/quarter/year, or whatever. Does the rate go down as the vehicle depreciates and it becomes cheaper for the insurance company to repair or replace it? Nope. When I buy health insurance, I am betting with the insurance company. They are betting I won't get sick & they won't have to pay, and I am betting I will get sick and they will have to pay. Either way, I lose. If I don't get catastrophically ill, I will never get back the value of the premiums I have paid....not even close. If I do get catastrophically ill, of course I'll be in the vast minority, but I will still have to pay deductibles and all the out of pocket expenses and non-covered items, plus anything after the maximum lifetime benefit. Plus, although this new law may change it, if I am sickly, they may drop me or increase my rates exponentially. I know this because I have friends and family in that very situation. The insurance companies have their businesses set up so they will not lose. Of course, or they would not still be in business! The goal is to turn as much profit as possible, not to provide a service. It is a business, not a charity.
You're probably a cool guy, Chuck. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. Let's not insult one another because they differ, how about it?

If insurance has long been thought of as a racket it wouldn't still be around Well, not actually. Lots of things are a racket or crooked & are still around. The gambling industry is one...it is geared for you to lose, yet people flock there & spend money. I don't mean it is rigged, I mean the odds are stacked against you and for the house. Insurance is the same way. Several years ago I looked at insurance with doctor's visit coverage. That coverage was an additional $50/month per person. At the time, a dr visit in my town was about $30. So, just to get my money's worth, I would have to go to the dr about 1.5 times every month, which, of course, I do not normally do. I only went 3 or 4o times a year at most. Unless you suffer a catastrophic illness, you will never recover the premiums you have paid. If that was not true, they would not still be in business. Here in Mississippi, several companies almost went under, and tried to refuse coverage in the Southern part of the state after Hurricane Katrina because they actually had to pay out (imagine that) because of all the claims, but the government would not let them, and they had to suck it up. Your auto rates should adjust as the value of the vehicle decreases, as you age the rate should also go down My auto rates have never adjusted down, and not just the liability amounts, but the collision/comprehensive as well, and I have used different companies. I'm not saying that no insurance is worth having. I'm saying it is just designed to make money, and I do not want to be forced to purchase it or be fined for not purchasing it. I'm all for reforming insurance practices, making it more affordable, and expanding programs for the poor. There are things in the bill that I am okay with. I have auto insurance, lol. I wear my seatbelt and have airbags. I wear a life jacket while in a boat, lol.

Unfortunately, I cannot get my son on insurance because of his heart condition. I did not have insurance when he was born, and cannot get it now. I also cannot get it, because I am in the process of being diagnosed with MS, and I can't afford it now anyway, even if I didn't have that condition. Thank goodness I am a veteran and I can go to the VA for a lot of my health care needs. I have not been able to work in a couple of months because I am in the middle of a relapse of the MS, but the economy is so bad right now that I have not gotten very many calls for surveys anyway, so I haven't actually missed much work if you look at it like that.

Shawn at no point did I insult you. In a playful way I simply implied that your post was crap. And in my opinion it was/is just that. Not you, your post. If me thinking your post was crap is hurtful to you or if you take that as me insulting you then I apologize but perhaps the internet isn't the place to spend your free time.

I don't know you brother and I would have no reason to insult you as a person. From what I've read you seem to be a pretty good guy and a devoted father. I've prayed many times for you and your son and truly have no reason to insult you. Take J.B. for example. He's a great guy and one of my favorite people on here. But every time he posts about the Cardinals... it's pure SHYTE!! Love him, his opinions on sports *cough boxing cough* SUCK on occasion. :D Kinda like hate the sin but love the sinner? Make any sense brother?

I am further convinced though, after reading your posts, that either your understanding of insurance is limited or perhaps you carry a personal bias (due to recent health issues??) that is impacting your opinion/judgment.

In my opinion your two arguments above are extremely flawed and hopefully I'll have time to respond to them tomorrow. As for now I'm heading to bed to continue fighting a migraine I've had for the last 16 hours.

Ciao'

County Mike
03-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Oh yeah, I took the northbound horse/ southbound end as a playful joke. Nothing aimed at you directly. Chuck's a good guy. When in doubt, he's likely just joking with you.

Neezar
03-25-2010, 02:07 PM
No, Chuck said that his post was crap. His post was his opinion. Therefore, Chuck said that his opinion was crap. That could easily be mistaken for an insult.

:stirthepot: :Whistle: lol

surveyorshawn
03-25-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm going to move my insurance rant to a new post so I don't get this one bogged down off topic.