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Play The Man
03-17-2010, 04:26 AM
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/62812

Nearly one-third of all practicing physicians may leave the medical profession if President Obama signs current versions of health-care reform legislation into law, according to a survey published in the latest issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

The survey, which was conducted by the Medicus Firm, a leading physician search and consulting firm based in Atlanta and Dallas, found that a majority of physicians said health-care reform would cause the quality of American medical care to “deteriorate” and it could be the “final straw” that sends a sizeable number of doctors out of medicine.

More than 29 percent (29.2) percent of the nearly 1,200 doctors who responded to the survey said they would quit the profession or retire early if health reform legislation becomes law. If a public option were included in the legislation, as several liberal Senators have indicated they would like, the number would jump to 45.7 percent.

The medical journal published the results in its March and April edition, saying: “While a sudden loss of half of the nations physicians seems unlikely, a very dramatic decrease in the physician workforce could become a reality as an unexpected side effect of health reform.”

Kevin Perpetua, managing partner for the Medicus Firm, reported that a reform bill could be “the final straw” in an already financially precarious industry.

“Many physicians feel that they cannot continue to practice if patient loads increase while pay decreases,” Perpetua said in the study. “The overwhelming prediction from physicians is that health reform, if implemented inappropriately, could create a detrimental combination of circumstances, and result in an environment in which it is not possible for most physicians to continue practicing medicine.”

“With an average debt of $140,000, and many graduates approaching a quarter of a million dollars in school loans, being a doctor is becoming less and less feasible,” Perpetua said. “Health-care reform and increasing government control of medicine may be the final straw that causes the physician workforce to break down.”

The survey shows that many doctors already find their situations difficult:

-- 36 percent said that they would not recommend medicine as a profession to others, regardless of whether health-care reform passes;
-- another 27 percent would still recommend medicine as a career, but not if the current reform proposal passes.

In total, 63 percent of doctors would not recommend the profession after health-care reform passes. Just 12 percent do not recommend becoming a physician now but think they would if current reform proposals pass.

Primary-care physicians, those who work in the critical fields of family and internal medicine, not only feel that they would want to quit but that they might be cast out of medicine. 46.3 percent of those physicians said that they would either want to leave medicine or that they would be “forced out” by the changes to the system.

Chris F
03-17-2010, 04:38 AM
Obamacare is a pile of hooey and I seriously doubt it will ever pass. The DNC knows if they pass this they will all loose in 2010 and Obama will be a one term wonder.

Vizion
03-17-2010, 04:45 PM
Obamacare is a pile of hooey and I seriously doubt it will ever pass. The DNC knows if they pass this they will all loose in 2010 and Obama will be a one term wonder.Then why are they pushing for it so hard?

TENNESSEAN
03-17-2010, 04:55 PM
Then why are they pushing for it so hard?

because their demorats that's what they do:rolleyes:

NateR
03-17-2010, 10:57 PM
Then why are they pushing for it so hard?

Because it's not about healthcare, it's about power and total control over every aspect of our lives. Dictators don't stop seizing power when they see that they are unpopular, they actually begin to desperately grab for more because they know that their time is short. Democrats are the same way.

TENNESSEAN
03-18-2010, 12:39 AM
Because it's not about healthcare, it's about power and total control over every aspect of our lives. Dictators don't stop seizing power when they see that they are unpopular, they actually begin to desperately grab for more because they know that their time is short. Democrats are the same way.

Don't you mean demorats. Remember Archie Bunker, all in the family

rearnakedchoke
03-18-2010, 02:07 PM
so are they saying that the doctors will quit due to the increase of patients they will be seeing or the fact that they can't jack up the price on their fees?

Neezar
03-18-2010, 02:16 PM
so are they saying that the doctors will quit due to the increase of patients they will be seeing or the fact that they can't jack up the price on their fees?


:rolleyes:

You really don't have a clue on the way it works down here. Doctor's can jack up their fees as much as they would like and it wouldn't make ANY difference. The insurance company and the government (medicare and medicaid) have a set amount that they will pay for each service and materials. So the doctor can send any amount he wants on the bill but the insurance co and govt decide what they are going to pay. The doctor has to accept it or stop doing business with them. Period. I guess the docs could go after the individuals for their "jacked up" fees but that wouldn't last long as there is a doctor on the next corner that will take them for a better price.

rearnakedchoke
03-18-2010, 02:21 PM
:rolleyes:

You really don't have a clue on the way it works down here. Doctor's can jack up their fees as much as they would like and it wouldn't make ANY difference. The insurance company and the government (medicare and medicaid) have a set amount that they will pay for each service and materials. So the doctor can send any amount he wants on the bill but the insurance co and govt decide what they are going to pay. The doctor has to accept it or stop doing business with them. Period. I guess the docs could go after the individuals for their "jacked up" fees but that wouldn't last long as there is a doctor on the next corner that will take them for a better price.

so why would a third of the docs quit than?

Neezar
03-18-2010, 02:30 PM
so why would a third of the docs quit than?

Because the govt pays less than insurance companies. The docs have to overbill the private insurance companies now just to make up for the money that the govt refuses to pay. And the govt controls so much already that doctors really can't afford to refuse to treat people that are on medicaid and medicare. You would basically be refusing the poor and the elderly. Who could feel right about that? Once the govt has control over the majority of the populations insurance then a doctor won't be making as much as your local plumber. The hours, the work, and the responsibility just won't be worth it.

All the intelligent people will do something else for a living. They will have to dumb down the program to create doctors and you will have your fat ass with his crack showing doing your knee surgery.

rearnakedchoke
03-18-2010, 02:36 PM
Because the govt pays less than insurance companies. The docs have to overbill the private insurance companies now just to make up for the money that the govt refuses to pay. And the govt controls so much already that doctors really can't afford to refuse to treat people that are on medicaid and medicare. You would basically be refusing the poor and the elderly. Who could feel right about that? Once the govt has control over the majority of the populations insurance then a doctor won't be making as much as your local plumber. The hours, the work, and the responsibility just won't be worth it.

All the intelligent people will do something else for a living. They will have to dumb down the program to create doctors and you will have your fat ass with his crack showing doing your knee surgery.

we'll see how many quit if this bill ever passes ... which i don't think it will ...

but i doubt docs will start quitting cuz they are only making a couple hundred thousand a year ...

NateR
03-18-2010, 03:44 PM
we'll see how many quit if this bill ever passes ... which i don't think it will ...

but i doubt docs will start quitting cuz they are only making a couple hundred thousand a year ...

Trying to turn this into a greed issue just shows how little you understand about the medical field.

rearnakedchoke
03-18-2010, 04:09 PM
Trying to turn this into a greed issue just shows how little you understand about the medical field.

I read the article and it talked about pay decrease, a field that is already in a finanicially precarious postion, how doctors have debt coming out of school ... sounds like a money issue to me ...

Twinsmama
03-18-2010, 04:45 PM
what would your reaction be if your boss came to you and said "you are doing a good job, i'm going to give you more work to do but unfortunately you are going to take a pay cut. sorry but we took a vote and that's how it will be. you understand right?"

rearnakedchoke
03-18-2010, 05:04 PM
what would your reaction be if your boss came to you and said "you are doing a good job, i'm going to give you more work to do but unfortunately you are going to take a pay cut. sorry but we took a vote and that's how it will be. you understand right?"

but it's not about greed ....

logrus
03-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Half these doctors shouldn't be doctors anyways. I hope those mother f'ers quit.

mscomc
03-18-2010, 08:44 PM
Trying to turn this into a greed issue just shows how little you understand about the medical field.

Right because your knowledge about the field is so superior :blink:

Okay, maybe this isnt entirely about greed. But to say that greed is not a significant portion of the issue I think is false.

Why do you think most these doctors become doctors? If you fell for that "I just want to help people" line, thats about 10% of people. It is about money. doctors make a LARGE salary. And what does that salary provide for: cars, houses, fancy trips etc etc. It is a sad reality, but everything in the world, comes down to MONEY.

The lab i work in is part of one of the medical schools here, and you here the 2nd and 3rd year med students talking. Half of them dont give a damn about helping. To them, its just a job thats going to get them a BMW.

Dont take my word for it, read some literature on it.

Stanton, S, and Shortt, SED. 2003. “The influence of payment method on patterns of physician practice: experience at a Canadian academic health centre.” Research in Healthcare Financial Management; 8(1): 43-58.

And arguably some of the most greedy. Dermatologists...:laugh:

http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/2/170


And for a interesting piece, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/nyregion/01comp.html .

Plus, they also need to pull in major dollars to pay off the debt. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/medical-student-section/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml ....... $156,456...as average debt. You can even start to make a real dent in the debt until you finish residency.


Now this does NOT mean U.S doctors are unique in this. All doctors have this capacity: canadians, americans, europeans, asians etc etc etc.

NateR
03-18-2010, 09:19 PM
I read the article and it talked about pay decrease, a field that is already in a finanicially precarious postion, how doctors have debt coming out of school ... sounds like a money issue to me ...

It is a money issue, but it is not a greed issue. Those are two different things.

If I racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt getting my education and I would like to have a job that allows me to pay off that debt within my lifetime AND allows my family to live comfortably, then how is that greed? Do you honestly believe that the quality of your healthcare is going to improve if the doctor treating you can barely pay his bills and struggles to keep his family fed?

NateR
03-18-2010, 09:21 PM
Now this does NOT mean U.S doctors are unique in this. All doctors have this capacity: canadians, americans, europeans, asians etc etc etc.

This coming from Mr. "Doctors-Are-More-Trustworthy-Than-Everyone-Else-Because-They-Are-Doctors." :laugh:

mscomc
03-18-2010, 09:33 PM
This coming from Mr. "Doctors-Are-More-Trustworthy-Than-Everyone-Else-Because-They-Are-Doctors." :laugh:

Trust and greed are two different things pal. I would think someone of your intelligene would know that.

To be greedy just means to excessively desire something: cars, house, watches, money etc

Trust is just being honest and reliable. You can be greedy for something, but that does NOT mean you have to lie, cheat and steal to get it. Doctors are an example of that. I dont think they are non-trustworthy people, but they can be greedy. I think they are some of the most trustworthy people, you entrust your life to them when you need them. BUT!!!! they can be greedy.

Yes, it is true, greed can reach a crossroad with trust. But I dont think that is the case here.

Doctors-Are-More-Trustworthy-Than-Everyone-Else-Because-They-Are-Doctors. I dont beleive i said this verbatim, but I see what you tried to do. NICE TRY!!!!


Instead of focussing on one small area in the latter part of my post, why dont you try responding to the other parts. You know where I posted links to actuall research articles, from credited periodicals citing my point, instead of just telling others "Trying to turn this into a greed issue just shows how little you understand about the medical field"......So why dont you try that, if you can:Whistle:

rearnakedchoke
03-18-2010, 11:44 PM
It is a money issue, but it is not a greed issue. Those are two different things.

If I racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt getting my education and I would like to have a job that allows me to pay off that debt within my lifetime AND allows my family to live comfortably, then how is that greed? Do you honestly believe that the quality of your healthcare is going to improve if the doctor treating you can barely pay his bills and struggles to keep his family fed?

if you think a doctor is going to end up having issues making ends meet, than you are mistaken ... they aren't all of a sudden be making minimum wage ... look at doctors in all countries with universal healthcare ... they are making real good money ...

Black Mamba
03-19-2010, 12:04 AM
Yes they are making good money. True.

However, I'm going to put this in perspective for you. A doctor easily spends 10-12 years in school (not including specialty and sub-specialty schooling) and now gets paid at least $150,000 (probably more depending on the field).

If Obama's stuff passes, their salary goes down to about half, say $60-75,000. For you and I, that's still good. However, an electrical engineer for example, spends between 5-6 years in school for their bachelors. STARTING OUT, with little to no experience, they make around $60-75,000. With more schooling, that number easily increases.

What's my point? Well, look at the numbers. Why would I want to spend years and years in school for something that pays just as much for a job that requires half the number of years? I can't say I'd blame those docs for wanting to quit. If I put that much of my blood, sweat, tears, and oh yeah money....I'd want a very well off salary.

Black Mamba
03-19-2010, 12:15 AM
All the intelligent people will do something else for a living. They will have to dumb down the program to create doctors and you will have your fat ass with his crack showing doing your knee surgery.

And not only dumb down, but make acceptance into medical school easier. It's obvious why schools out state accept you because of the dough. But if you want in-state med school, you've got so many factors to compete with it. GPA, work experience, extracurricular, interview, MCAT...and did I mention GPA? :wacko: I live less than 50 miles away from a med school (UCSD), but the competition to get into it like trying to apply to the Naval Academy.

Play The Man
03-19-2010, 03:31 AM
so are they saying that the doctors will quit due to the increase of patients they will be seeing or the fact that they can't jack up the price on their fees?

On March 1st of this year, Medicare, the U.S. government health insurance program for the elderly, instituted a 21% cut in physician reimbursement. Congress put a temporary legislative "patch" for the month of March. Unless another bill is passed these cuts will take effect on April 1st, 2010. These are not insignificant cuts. We are talking 21%!. How would you react to a 21% wage cut? Most unions would strike over a 2.1% pay cut. In order to prevent a massive cut in their take home pay physicians can only do one (or each) of three things: 1) Increase the number of hours worked to offset the 21% cut. Given that most physicians average a 50, 60 or 70 hour work week, another 10-15 hours is not feasible if they want any kind of life 2) Keep the same number of hours but squeeze a larger number of patients into a stable number of work hours. This would worsen patient care significantly and lead to physician burn-out. 3) Cut medical practice expenses. Cut the salary of the nurses, receptionists, etc. Stop using a transcriptionist and hand-write notes or outsource the work to India. This spreads the misery around and helps send the economy into a nosedive contraction.

Medicare is a mess. If the government took over everything it would lead to physician burn-out and drop-out, worse patient care and dropping salaries for nurses, receptionists, transcriptionists, etc.

Play The Man
03-19-2010, 04:00 AM
Right because your knowledge about the field is so superior :blink:

Okay, maybe this isnt entirely about greed. But to say that greed is not a significant portion of the issue I think is false.

Why do you think most these doctors become doctors? If you fell for that "I just want to help people" line, thats about 10% of people. It is about money. doctors make a LARGE salary. And what does that salary provide for: cars, houses, fancy trips etc etc. It is a sad reality, but everything in the world, comes down to MONEY.

The lab i work in is part of one of the medical schools here, and you here the 2nd and 3rd year med students talking. Half of them dont give a damn about helping. To them, its just a job thats going to get them a BMW.

Dont take my word for it, read some literature on it.

Stanton, S, and Shortt, SED. 2003. “The influence of payment method on patterns of physician practice: experience at a Canadian academic health centre.” Research in Healthcare Financial Management; 8(1): 43-58.

And arguably some of the most greedy. Dermatologists...:laugh:

http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/2/170


And for a interesting piece, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/nyregion/01comp.html .

Plus, they also need to pull in major dollars to pay off the debt. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/medical-student-section/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml ....... $156,456...as average debt. You can even start to make a real dent in the debt until you finish residency.


Now this does NOT mean U.S doctors are unique in this. All doctors have this capacity: canadians, americans, europeans, asians etc etc etc.

What is wrong with incentives for work? I think you could argue from a religious perspective about the effects of greed on the soul, but we live in secular societies. Wealth and greed are not synonymous. Wealth is a good thing. Greed occurs when wealth is an idol; wealth becomes the ultimate good.

You mentioned that you work in a lab. Don't PhD's make a handsome living? If you asked the scientists in your lab about their motivation for becoming a scientist, I bet most would say, "The love of scientific knowledge" or "In order to make a discovery to cure a disease". One could be cynical about these answers. For example, MSCOMC, would you be equally motivated to perform your work if your pay was cut to a subsistence level, you were never awarded a diploma, your name was never put on any journal articles and you were never eligible for any honors, awards or grants? If a scientist is truly in it for the love of science and the desire to cure disease, then titles, honors and an impressive CV are not important - after all, it is all about the love of science, right?

I appreciate the work of physicians and scientists. Money, honors, awards, etc. help motivate people to work hard. This benefits us all.

I am friends with many physicians. Most don't own luxury cars. A cardiologist friend drives a mini Cooper. Another physician couple drives a 1996 VW Jetta and 1996 Geo with rust and body damage. A psychiatrist friend drives a Toyota Highlander and a 90's Oldsmobile that was fixed up after an accident.

Most physicians I know don't take vacations. They don't have the time. They might go to a conference or convention but it is always a "working" vacation.

mscomc
03-19-2010, 05:17 AM
What is wrong with incentives for work? I think you could argue from a religious perspective about the effects of greed on the soul, but we live in secular societies. Wealth and greed are not synonymous. Wealth is a good thing. Greed occurs when wealth is an idol; wealth becomes the ultimate good.

You mentioned that you work in a lab. Don't PhD's make a handsome living? If you asked the scientists in your lab about their motivation for becoming a scientist, I bet most would say, "The love of scientific knowledge" or "In order to make a discovery to cure a disease". One could be cynical about these answers. For example, MSCOMC, would you be equally motivated to perform your work if your pay was cut to a subsistence level, you were never awarded a diploma, your name was never put on any journal articles and you were never eligible for any honors, awards or grants? If a scientist is truly in it for the love of science and the desire to cure disease, then titles, honors and an impressive CV are not important - after all, it is all about the love of science, right?

I appreciate the work of physicians and scientists. Money, honors, awards, etc. help motivate people to work hard. This benefits us all.

I am friends with many physicians. Most don't own luxury cars. A cardiologist friend drives a mini Cooper. Another physician couple drives a 1996 VW Jetta and 1996 Geo with rust and body damage. A psychiatrist friend drives a Toyota Highlander and a 90's Oldsmobile that was fixed up after an accident.

Most physicians I know don't take vacations. They don't have the time. They might go to a conference or convention but it is always a "working" vacation.

You bring up some good points. I fully agree, that having incentives does motivate. The incentive most of the time is money. You mentioned your friends who are physicans, and from the sounds of it, they sound like true angels, and im being serious about that. They have not become obsessed with financial things, and all the best to them. Maybe they are part of the 2/3of doctors that would NOT quit if obamacare passes.
Sadly, that is not the case with all, as you may have read in the articles I posted. Thats all I was trying to argue. So Greed may be ONE component of the issue of this thread. But there are others issues at play. You mentioned that greed is not synonymous with wealth...i agree with that. But i do beleive that wealth is commensurable with greed, and that it can lead to greedy behaviour. Getting more money can be an 'addiction' if you will. You just want more and more and more.

In my case, you mentioned my phD work. To be honest with you, ONE of the reasons i went into biochem work was to make my contribution, if any, to molecular medicine. But, if my salary, or benefits or all that were taken away, I would not do it anymore. By the time I am done, I will have gone through 11 years of post highschool education. I want compensation for it. And I can assure you, everyone in my lab, and the labs around me all feel the same way. So yes, I am greedy. But as I eluded to earlier in this thread, that does not mean that I would deem myself as untrustworthy, or that I am a liar, or a cheat, or do anything like that to get what I want. I beleive I still act with morals and ethics, and try to live by the golden rule. Thus, I understand how a physican would feel if their pay went down. As we would have both gone through the same amount of school, sacrifice etc etc etc. The reality is, MONEY is central to everything. The house you want to live in, the car you want to drive, the clothes you want to wear, the trips you want to take, the foods you want to eat, the quality of wine you want to drink etc etc etc, greed can fuel this.

I think what I am calling greed (not always a bad thing) stems from incentive, as you pointed out. Hence, if you took these away, there is no more incentive, so they would quit, so this does NOT benefit us. So we need to feed the greedy appetite of such professionals it seems, or at least some professionals.

hmmm , Good Dialogue :)

Play The Man
03-19-2010, 07:34 AM
You bring up some good points. I fully agree, that having incentives does motivate. The incentive most of the time is money. You mentioned your friends who are physicans, and from the sounds of it, they sound like true angels, and im being serious about that. They have not become obsessed with financial things, and all the best to them. Maybe they are part of the 2/3of doctors that would NOT quit if obamacare passes.
Sadly, that is not the case with all, as you may have read in the articles I posted. Thats all I was trying to argue. So Greed may be ONE component of the issue of this thread. But there are others issues at play. You mentioned that greed is not synonymous with wealth...i agree with that. But i do beleive that wealth is commensurable with greed, and that it can lead to greedy behaviour. Getting more money can be an 'addiction' if you will. You just want more and more and more.

In my case, you mentioned my phD work. To be honest with you, ONE of the reasons i went into biochem work was to make my contribution, if any, to molecular medicine. But, if my salary, or benefits or all that were taken away, I would not do it anymore. By the time I am done, I will have gone through 11 years of post highschool education. I want compensation for it. And I can assure you, everyone in my lab, and the labs around me all feel the same way. So yes, I am greedy. But as I eluded to earlier in this thread, that does not mean that I would deem myself as untrustworthy, or that I am a liar, or a cheat, or do anything like that to get what I want. I beleive I still act with morals and ethics, and try to live by the golden rule. Thus, I understand how a physican would feel if their pay went down. As we would have both gone through the same amount of school, sacrifice etc etc etc. The reality is, MONEY is central to everything. The house you want to live in, the car you want to drive, the clothes you want to wear, the trips you want to take, the foods you want to eat, the quality of wine you want to drink etc etc etc, greed can fuel this.

I think what I am calling greed (not always a bad thing) stems from incentive, as you pointed out. Hence, if you took these away, there is no more incentive, so they would quit, so this does NOT benefit us. So we need to feed the greedy appetite of such professionals it seems, or at least some professionals.

hmmm , Good Dialogue :)

I agree with much or most of what you wrote. In an ideal world men would be motivated by altruism; however, we live in a fallen world. In my studies of history, I haven't found a successful utopia. Most fall apart within a generation. The 20th century has been littered with the bodies of victims of dystopias. In my opinion, the free enterprise system is the best system to provide wealth and freedom and minimize the risk of authoritarian government. There are great inequalities in wealth; however, I believe these inequalities need to be addressed with charities, personal networks, churches, societies, and generous individuals rather than the force of government.

Play The Man
03-19-2010, 08:09 AM
Just to give a bit of perspective on this issue and the sacrifice involved in being a physician, I would like to write about a female physician I dated during her residency.

It was not unheard of to have a work schedule as follows:

Be at work on Monday morning at 6 AM or earlier to "preround" on patients before rounds. Put in a full day's work rounding and seeing patients (no breaks, maybe lunch if lucky). At 5 PM on Monday change into scrubs and take the "call pager". Be on call from 5 PM until rounds the next morning. Call usually involved absolutely no sleep. She was up the entire night admitting new patients and taking care of "fires". Her pager went off approximately every 5-10 minutes for 12 hours. On Tuesday morning, her call would end, but her normal work day was just beginning. She would put in a full day until about 5 or 6 PM on Tuesday night. She would go home and collapse after working 36 hours without sleep. Please note that by Tuesday night she had almost completed the average worker's workweek.

Wednesday was a normal 6 AM to 6 PM workday. No slack for being tired from Monday and Tueday.

Thursday would be another call day. Work an entire work day and then begin a "call" on Thursday night. She would work all Thursday night and Friday until the evening. Friday night at 6 PM she would go home and collapse after another shift of 36 hours without sleep.

For those keeping track, the M-T call of 36 hours + 12 hours work on Wednesday + a 36 hour call from Th-F = 84 hours for the work week.

The trouble was she didn't get the weekend off. Saturday she would have to put in about 6 hours (up to 90 hours for the week). If she was lucky, she might have Sunday off. Sometimes, the every 3 night call would march on and she would do another 36-hour call from Sunday 6 AM to Monday 6 PM.

So, if you take the time period from Monday 6 AM until Monday 6 AM of the next week, there were times she worked 114 hours (by adding the 24 hours of Sunday 6 AM until Monday 6 AM to the previous total of 90 hours).

During her intern year, I believe she made about 27K. You can do the math. 27K divided by 52 weeks divided by 114 hours gives you an hourly wage way less than a McDonald's worker.

She had to go to 4 years of university followed by 4 years of medical school followed by 3 years of residency followed by 5 years of fellowship. So, 16 years from high school until she received a good paycheck. At that point, she could start paying off the thousands and thousands of dollars in loans. Now in her mid-30's, her "real" job started (with 60-70 hour work weeks)

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 09:08 PM
have they all gone :unsure-1:

TENNESSEAN
03-22-2010, 10:02 PM
have they all gone :unsure-1:

your enjoying yourself today aren't cha

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 10:12 PM
your enjoying yourself today aren't cha

:unsure-1: No...I'm worried that Obama might have pushed some of you to far this time :unsure-1:

rockdawg21
03-22-2010, 10:54 PM
They won't quit, they'll just go to the Republic of Texas. :tongue0011:

Tyburn
03-22-2010, 11:03 PM
They won't quit, they'll just go to the Republic of Texas. :tongue0011:

:w00t: I texas big enough to accomodate the majority of the US Population :laugh: seems like everyone wants to go there :happydancing:

I have a friend who lives there...perhaps I can go and become a Texan also :ashamed:

rockdawg21
03-22-2010, 11:09 PM
:w00t: I texas big enough to accomodate the majority of the US Population :laugh: seems like everyone wants to go there :happydancing:

I have a friend who lives there...perhaps I can go and become a Texan also :ashamed:
Texas is an absolutely enormous state. Some of the counties alone can house multiple states.

There really isn't anything out West, so yeah, there's plenty of room for millions more people. Texas could easily triple in population and there would still be plenty of wealthy landowners.