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TheConcretekid
03-01-2010, 07:11 PM
All those pinko-commie-socialist nations in Northern Europe have better health care than the US, they are living longer, with lower infant mortality rates, and SPENDING LESS
(though we have a lot of MRI machines)

http://www.visualeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/worldhealthcare.jpg

County Mike
03-01-2010, 08:09 PM
U.S.A.

U.S.A.

U.S.A.

Neezar
03-01-2010, 08:13 PM
As long as I have a say in the matter I still pick what we have even for my children.

logrus
03-01-2010, 08:13 PM
I blame teen pregnancies and Hispanics, but that's just me.

Neezar
03-01-2010, 08:25 PM
I blame teen pregnancies and Hispanics, but that's just me.

:laugh: Me, too.


I don't hold much stock in these numbers. I once looked into were they come up with these numbers and every country reports their statistics in a different way and have different guidelines as to what and when to report it. For example, how the infant mortality rate is reported is very different. Some countries don't report an infant death until after the mother is 22 wks pregnant before then it is considered an abortion/miscarriage. Some countries report after 28 wks, some only report it if the baby was viable (could have possibly lived) and in some instances it is left up to the doctor to decide if it was viable or not regardless of gestation age (how far the along the mother was). If the infant or fetus wasn't viable then it was chalked up to a miscarriage and no death certificate would be issued. In the US, laws are much stricter on what and when to report as a death of an infant. I can't remember the exact numbers but many more deaths would have to be reported from here. So if you take this into consideration then the outcome numbers don't seem so different in comparison.

TheConcretekid
03-01-2010, 08:29 PM
As long as I have a say in the matter I still pick what we have even for my children.

You want your children to have worse health care, live shorter unhealthier lives, pay more and potentially put your grandkids at risk? :scared0015:

rearnakedchoke
03-01-2010, 08:34 PM
Don't you remember .. Brock Lesnar said that Canada has horrible health care ....

Neezar
03-01-2010, 08:37 PM
You want your children to have worse health care, live shorter unhealthier lives, pay more and potentially put your grandkids at risk? :scared0015:

We only pay more because there is more treatment available. :wink:

Shorter, unhealthier lives? That is due to people's laziness and lack of taking responsibilty for themselves. That has nothing to do with our healthcare system.

If you are educated and know how to use our system then you can't find better healthcare any where in the world. I hope my kids will be educated and take better care of themselves.

Max
03-01-2010, 08:43 PM
ok so i have been looking at these stats and I think the key is to get more MRI machines. Japan has the highest number of MRI machines per population and they also have the lowest infant mortality rate and live the longest. So the key to living longer is buy a **** ton of MRI machines. I think that should be the new health care bill. Buy 1 billion MRI machines and we will be fine :)

Neezar
03-01-2010, 08:44 PM
ok so i have been looking at these stats and I think the key is to get more MRI machines. Japan has the highest number of MRI machines per population and they also have the lowest infant mortality rate and live the longest. So the key to living longer is buy a **** ton of MRI machines. I think that should be the new health care bill. Buy 1 billion MRI machines and we will be fine :)


:laugh: Let's do it!

NateR
03-01-2010, 09:01 PM
All those pinko-commie-socialist nations in Northern Europe have better health care than the US, they are living longer, with lower infant mortality rates, and SPENDING LESS
(though we have a lot of MRI machines)

http://www.visualeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/worldhealthcare.jpg

Yeah and I'm really sure that this comes from a reliable source and that there is no fuzzy math involved. :rolleyes:

Who are these "Visual Economics" people and why should be believe a single word that they say?

NateR
03-01-2010, 09:05 PM
We only pay more because there is more treatment available. :wink:

Shorter, unhealthier lives? That is due to people's laziness and lack of taking responsibilty for themselves. That has nothing to do with our healthcare system.

If you are educated and know how to use our system then you can't find better healthcare any where in the world. I hope my kids will be educated and take better care of themselves.

Exactly Americans have more options available, thus the quality of our healthcare is much better than those other nations. And, as everyone knows, you pay more for quality.:)

J.B.
03-01-2010, 09:11 PM
Yeah and I'm really sure that this comes from a reliable source and that there is no fuzzy math involved. :rolleyes:

Who are these "Visual Economics" people and why should be believe a single word that they say?

Actually the data was collected by the Kaiser Family Foundation, and I haven't seen or read anything that suggests they are anything but independent, but I was thinking the same thing at first too.

Miss Foxy
03-01-2010, 09:26 PM
I blame teen pregnancies and Hispanics, but that's just me.
? I don't get it..:huh:

County Mike
03-01-2010, 09:29 PM
? I don't get it..:huh:

Come into my room and I'll explain it to you. ;)

NateR
03-01-2010, 09:40 PM
Actually the data was collected by the Kaiser Family Foundation, and I haven't seen or read anything that suggests they are anything but independent, but I was thinking the same thing at first too.

I don't know too much Kaiser Foundation, but I would also question the agenda of whoever put together that little bit of visual propaganda that ConcreteKid posted.

Regardless, the American people have spoken out loud and clear that we do not want Obama's healthcare reform. The Democrats can continue to push it forward at their own peril.

However, the point is moot, we all know that healthcare costs are out of control and that something needs to be done, but the "insurance Company Bailout" plan that is Obamacare is NOT what we need at all.

Miss Foxy
03-01-2010, 09:56 PM
Come into my room and I'll explain it to you. ;)

Lol..:)

Miss Foxy
03-01-2010, 09:57 PM
I don't know too much Kaiser Foundation, but I would also question the agenda of whoever put together that little bit of visual propaganda that ConcreteKid posted.

Regardless, the American people have spoken out loud and clear that we do not want Obama's healthcare reform. The Democrats can continue to push it forward at their own peril.

However, the point is moot, we all know that healthcare costs are out of control and that something needs to be done, but the "insurance Company Bailout" plan that is Obamacare is NOT what we need at all.
I used to work for them for a few years. Large HMO basically they are into preventive medicine... Lots of lawsuits for denying members referrals to specialists.:angry:

J.B.
03-01-2010, 10:01 PM
I don't know too much Kaiser Foundation, but I would also question the agenda of whoever put together that little bit of visual propaganda that ConcreteKid posted.

Regardless, the American people have spoken out loud and clear that we do not want Obama's healthcare reform. The Democrats can continue to push it forward at their own peril.

However, the point is moot, we all know that healthcare costs are out of control and that something needs to be done, but the "insurance Company Bailout" plan that is Obamacare is NOT what we need at all.

I went on the Visual Economics website and it seems largely geared towards economic issues rather than political based ones, but we know that goes hand in hand most times.

I may not always know the exact intentions of the foundations and websites that put things like this together, but the one thing that I think I have a pretty firm grasp on, is the intention when posting it here. It's a common trend amongst some, but I will refrain from bloviating too much on the issue so as not to insight any more flame wars this week.

Miss Foxy
03-01-2010, 11:19 PM
I went on the Visual Economics website and it seems largely geared towards economic issues rather than political based ones, but we know that goes hand in hand most times.

I may not always know the exact intentions of the foundations and websites that put things like this together, but the one thing that I think I have a pretty firm grasp on, is the intention when posting it here. It's a common trend amongst some, but I will refrain from bloviating too much on the issue so as not to insight any more flame wars this week.
Hey we are all adults here and don't ever withhold your opinion buddy. :wink:..We can all agree to disagree and don't worry about the flame wars no big deal im speaking for myself personally, but just thought I would throw my 2 cents in..

J.B.
03-02-2010, 12:29 AM
Hey we are all adults here and don't ever withhold your opinion buddy. :wink:..We can all agree to disagree and don't worry about the flame wars no big deal im speaking for myself personally, but just thought I would throw my 2 cents in..

I hear ya, and it's no secret around here that I'm not shy with an opinion. :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
03-02-2010, 12:44 AM
I used to work for them for a few years. Large HMO basically they are into preventive medicine... Lots of lawsuits for denying members referrals to specialists.:angry:

isn't that kaiser permanente? or whatever ...

bradwright
03-02-2010, 12:46 AM
i'm not sure why somebody keeps bringing this subject up every once in a while,we have discussed it on numerous occasions and it always ends the same way.

SO PLEASE ! ! STOP DOING IT ! ! !

thank you.

Rev
03-02-2010, 12:49 AM
Or you could just stay out of it if you are tired of dealing with it.

J.B.
03-02-2010, 12:51 AM
Or you could just stay out of it if you are tired of dealing with it.

He makes a good point though, even if it is perfectly legal to keep beating the proverbial "dead horse".

bradwright
03-02-2010, 12:52 AM
Or you could just stay out of it if you are tired of dealing with it.

why do you try to antagonize people here ?

you really need to grow up and start acting like an adult.

Rev
03-02-2010, 01:13 AM
why do you try to antagonize people here ?

you really need to grow up and start acting like an adult.

lol. I'm just saying, when I am looking through the list of threads and see one that I am not intrested in, I stay out of it. How is that antagonizing? Telling someone to grow up is antagonizing when they only gave a simple reply and solution to your problem.:):wink:

Dont flatter yourself chief, I dont just look for stuff from you to respond to. You have posted alot of stuff that I wanted to jump on but(watch this now) I STAYED OUT OF IT!! I aint trying to start a fight so just chill, DUDE.

bradwright
03-02-2010, 01:20 AM
lol. I'm just saying, when I am looking through the list of threads and see one that I am not intrested in, I stay out of it. How is that antagonizing? Telling someone to grow up is antagonizing when they only gave a simple reply and solution to your problem.:):wink:

tell yourself what ever it is you need to hear.

Rev
03-02-2010, 01:33 AM
He makes a good point though, even if it is perfectly legal to keep beating the proverbial "dead horse".
right now in America, this is a big issue and people are going to have alot to say about it on both sides. Plus as people learn more information they are going to want to share it. Although I dont always agree with the views of the Concretekid he still should feel free to post any new info that would help him further gain ground on his side on the debate. Am I right?

J.B.
03-02-2010, 01:54 AM
right now in America, this is a big issue and people are going to have alot to say about it on both sides. Plus as people learn more information they are going to want to share it. Although I dont always agree with the views of the Concretekid he still should feel free to post any new info that would help him further gain ground on his side on the debate. Am I right?

Of course you are right. :)

That wasn't my point though.

I don't really care who posts what, unless it's spam or pornographic, it's not like I'm gonna report it. Still, there are some people currently, and some people in the past, who it seems have gone out of their way to keep dragging on the same discussions and debates when they know their view will not be received well by the majority of people on the forum. There is a word for that....it's on the tip of my tongue...:ninja:

Rev
03-02-2010, 01:57 AM
Of course you are right. :)

That wasn't my point though.

I don't really care who posts what, unless it's spam or pornographic, it's not like I'm gonna report it. Still, there are some people currently, and some people in the past, who it seems have gone out of their way to keep dragging on the same discussions and debates when they know their view will not be received well by the majority of people on the forum. There is a word for that....it's on the tip of my tongue...:ninja:

lol
go ahead and spit it out.
lol

J.B.
03-02-2010, 02:00 AM
lol
go ahead and spit it out.
lol

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d5/Troll-Obvious.JPG

Neezar
03-02-2010, 04:14 PM
You want your children to have worse health care, live shorter unhealthier lives, pay more and potentially put your grandkids at risk? :scared0015:


Hang on there. I missed this the first time. If you mean that the US citizens spend more on healthcare then that is not necessarily true. Dave pays more for his health coverage than I do for my family of four (even including my copays). So I personally don't pay more.

flo
03-02-2010, 04:18 PM
I blame teen pregnancies and Hispanics, but that's just me.
:laugh: Me, too.

Thirded!

:happydancing:

flo
03-02-2010, 04:19 PM
We only pay more because there is more treatment available. :wink:

Shorter, unhealthier lives? That is due to people's laziness and lack of taking responsibilty for themselves. That has nothing to do with our healthcare system.

If you are educated and know how to use our system then you can't find better healthcare any where in the world. I hope my kids will be educated and take better care of themselves.

Great points.

Miss Foxy
03-02-2010, 04:21 PM
isn't that kaiser permanente? or whatever ...

Yes sir..KP for short..

Miss Foxy
03-02-2010, 04:22 PM
i'm not sure why somebody keeps bringing this subject up every once in a while,we have discussed it on numerous occasions and it always ends the same way.

SO PLEASE ! ! STOP DOING IT ! ! !

thank you.

True.. It's always a blame game when it comes to politics or anything around here.

flo
03-02-2010, 04:28 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d5/Troll-Obvious.JPG

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Miss Foxy
03-02-2010, 04:29 PM
Thirded!

:happydancing: Well fill me in on how you all came up with it being teen pregnancies and Hispanics?

flo
03-02-2010, 05:34 PM
Well fill me in on how you all came up with it being teen pregnancies and Hispanics?

He was just being humorously irreverent, Miss Foxy.

County Mike
03-02-2010, 06:26 PM
Well fill me in on how you all came up with it being teen pregnancies and Hispanics?

Come into my room and I'll "fill you in". ;)

Tyburn
03-02-2010, 06:32 PM
:laugh: those figures are destorted I think. I reckon if you broke them down on a state by state level and acted on the assumption that a State was equatable to one of the northern european countries you'd discover that its probably one or two states causing a problem...and the rest would fall into allignment.

Tyburn
03-02-2010, 06:32 PM
Come into my room and I'll "fill you in". ;)

THATS GROSS :blink:

Tyburn
03-02-2010, 06:37 PM
Dave pays more for his health coverage than I do for my family of four (even including my copays). .

THATS COZ THE NHS IS SHYTE :angry:

:laugh:

atomdanger
03-02-2010, 06:51 PM
Don't you remember .. Brock Lesnar said that Canada has horrible health care ....

This. lol

But honestly, if anybody thought the US had the best healthcare they were kidding themselves.
Maybe the best care if you're rich, but we aren't all rich.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
03-03-2010, 10:58 AM
Socialized medicine just gives you the ILLUSION of cheap or free medicine! Somebody somewhere has to pay for it and its probably gonna be you even though you don't think you are.

Neezar
03-04-2010, 12:15 PM
btw, What about not being able to sue the govt? Who will be responsible for medical malpractice?

bradwright
03-04-2010, 12:45 PM
btw, What about not being able to sue the govt? Who will be responsible for medical malpractice?

how do you mean not being able to sue ?

rearnakedchoke
03-04-2010, 02:45 PM
btw, What about not being able to sue the govt? Who will be responsible for medical malpractice?

doctors are still held to high standards whether or not the gov't pays for healthcare or not .. they still have to have insurance and can get sued for malpractice ... in fact, in universal systems, doctors uphold the hypocratic oath better as they are not driven by money .. the sick patient comes first, not who can pay first ...

KENTUCKYREDBONE
03-04-2010, 08:55 PM
... in fact, in universal systems, doctors uphold the hypocratic oath better as they are not driven by money .. the sick patient comes first, not who can pay first ...


Not necessarily! But then again I don't begrudge Doctors a nice car or whatever. Plus if the Government decides you don't need a certain treatment I don't think you have any legal recourse. Medicaid and Medicare ain't really that great and Obama care would take money from Medicare at least. My thought is lets make health care better and cheaper for everybody. But Obama care I think would drag everybody down to be equal by making everyone care suck equally!

atomdanger
03-04-2010, 09:03 PM
Socialized medicine just gives you the ILLUSION of cheap or free medicine! Somebody somewhere has to pay for it and its probably gonna be you even though you don't think you are.

Not all universal healthcare is socialized.

Let go of your ideas about healthcare and do some research,
its costing less in other countries then we're paying,
its working better,
and people are living longer.

Open your mind.

Neezar
03-05-2010, 11:53 AM
Not all universal healthcare is socialized.

Let go of your ideas about healthcare and do some research,
its costing less in other countries then we're paying,
its working better,
and people are living longer.

Open your mind.

The government is paying less. The people are paying more.

Open your eyes.


And they WILL control what type of care is to be given. They do it with medicaid and medicare already.

TexasRN
03-05-2010, 12:03 PM
The government is paying less. The people are paying more.

Open your eyes.


And they WILL control what type of care is to be given. They do it with medicaid and medicare already.

Chiming in here....NC has a state insurance plan that anyone can buy into fairly easily. I have no clue what the cost is, I've never asked my patients. But with medicaid and the state plan, I cannot get my diabetics enough supplies. They just won't pay for enough strips to test their blood sugar. I work with high risk OB patients and if we don't have enough data on mom's blood sugar we can have horrible outcomes for both mom and baby. So yeah, they already DO control what type of care we can give. That's just a small example of what I deal with. This is testing strips for glucometers, not narcotics or some wackado experimental treatment.


~Amy

Neezar
03-05-2010, 02:19 PM
Chiming in here....NC has a state insurance plan that anyone can buy into fairly easily. I have no clue what the cost is, I've never asked my patients. But with medicaid and the state plan, I cannot get my diabetics enough supplies. They just won't pay for enough strips to test their blood sugar. I work with high risk OB patients and if we don't have enough data on mom's blood sugar we can have horrible outcomes for both mom and baby. So yeah, they already DO control what type of care we can give. That's just a small example of what I deal with. This is testing strips for glucometers, not narcotics or some wackado experimental treatment.


~Amy

OH! Don't even get me started on Medicare and Medicaid. If we have a patient that is going to be admitted and they are covered by these, we have to start jumping through hoops. And if you miss one, you don't get paid. For example, we have to do a urinalysis to prove the patient doesn't have a urinary tract infection before admission. We have to do a chest xray and draw blood cultures to prove they don't have pnuemonia before admission. (Regardless of what they are there for.) And the list goes on. You have to outline every diagnosis at the door or they won't pay. So if you find something else wrong with them after they are admitted then the hospital and doctors eat the bill. We spend more money on the government trying to get out of paying than we do on patient care sometimes.

(I won't even start on the subject of trying to find something to admit the pt on because they are sick and need treatment but the govt says that their diagnosis doesn't require a hospital stay (esp elderly). :angry:)

AND now they have decided that they won't pay for the antibiotic Levaquin. :dry:

Maybe this is why I am so against government ran healthcare. I see them interferring with good medical care on a daily basis.

ps. Hospital costs and private insurance costs were driven up by THE GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS.

Whew! I feel better. :laugh:

TexasRN
03-05-2010, 02:48 PM
OH! Don't even get me started on Medicare and Medicaid. If we have a patient that is going to be admitted and they are covered by these, we have to start jumping through hoops. And if you miss one, you don't get paid. For example, we have to do a urinalysis to prove the patient doesn't have a urinary tract infection before admission. We have to do a chest xray and draw blood cultures to prove they don't have pnuemonia before admission. (Regardless of what they are there for.) And the list goes on. You have to outline every diagnosis at the door or they won't pay. So if you find something else wrong with them after they are admitted then the hospital and doctors eat the bill. We spend more money on the government trying to get out of paying than we do on patient care sometimes.

(I won't even start on the subject of trying to find something to admit the pt on because they are sick and need treatment but the govt says that their diagnosis doesn't require a hospital stay (esp elderly). :angry:)

AND now they have decided that they won't pay for the antibiotic Levaquin. :dry:

Maybe this is why I am so against government ran healthcare. I see them interferring with good medical care on a daily basis.

ps. Hospital costs and private insurance costs were driven up by THE GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS.

Whew! I feel better. :laugh:

Yep. The new medicaid laws make us get preauthorization for ultrasounds every time we do one. So if a pt calls me on the triage line and says, "I haven't felt the baby move all day." I can't bring them in to do an ultrasound until medicaid says it's ok. We sometimes just have minutes to save a baby so if we don't get an immediate preauthorization my pt's baby could die before I get her in to be scanned. We aren't even allowed to *start* scanning until we get that. We have been banging our heads against the wall here at my office over this one. There's no leeway for emergencies at all. Even if we sent her directly to the hospital we couldn't get a scan on her until THEY got preauthorization from medicaid as well.


~Amy

KENTUCKYREDBONE
03-06-2010, 12:00 PM
I KNOW that medicaid don't like to pay! I personally know someone who is on medicaid cause they have been disabled all of their life. I am talking about Legitimate disabilities here. Their is alot of bill's medicaid has not paid so it go's on this person's credit report! So anybody that thinks medicaid equals good or free health care is sadly mistaken.

NateR
03-06-2010, 12:47 PM
Not all universal healthcare is socialized.

Let go of your ideas about healthcare and do some research,
its costing less in other countries then we're paying,
its working better,
and people are living longer.

Open your mind.

The opposition to healthcare reform is not really about healthcare at all, since most people will recognize that our system is far from perfect and changes need to be made. The opposition is to the people who want to do the reforming. To put it simply, the Democrats in power right now are not trustworthy; so, I don't believe for a minute that they have the best interests of the American people in mind.

Plus, do you really want the same level of service at hospitals that you now receive at the Post Office or DMV? Recognizing the need for change is one thing, but we need to be careful that we don't rush into a legislation that we cannot afford and could very well make things much much worse.

atomdanger
03-06-2010, 06:50 PM
The government is paying less. The people are paying more.

Open your eyes.


And they WILL control what type of care is to be given. They do it with medicaid and medicare already.

What do you mean NOW? yeah I know, we're in the only country where you can go bankrupt from medical costs.

Neezar
10-31-2013, 04:15 PM
The opposition to healthcare reform is not really about healthcare at all, since most people will recognize that our system is far from perfect and changes need to be made. The opposition is to the people who want to do the reforming. To put it simply, the Democrats in power right now are not trustworthy; so, I don't believe for a minute that they have the best interests of the American people in mind.

Plus, do you really want the same level of service at hospitals that you now receive at the Post Office or DMV? Recognizing the need for change is one thing, but we need to be careful that we don't rush into a legislation that we cannot afford and could very well make things much much worse.

Damn, Nate! You called it. lol

rearnakedchoke
10-31-2013, 04:32 PM
Damn, Nate! You called it. lol

called what???? nate has never believed the dems have had the interests of the people in mind ... not just when it comes to healthcare, but everything!!!

Neezar
10-31-2013, 04:37 PM
called what???? nate has never believed the dems have had the interests of the people in mind ... not just when it comes to healthcare, but everything!!!

This isn't about the government caring about people's health. This is all about the money! The government wants their piece of the pie. The only difference is if you don't pay Blue Cross they cancel your insurance. If you don't pay the govt they will come and take 'yo shyte'!

rearnakedchoke
10-31-2013, 04:44 PM
This isn't about the government caring about people's health. This is all about the money! The government wants their piece of the pie. The only difference is if you don't pay Blue Cross they cancel your insurance. If you don't pay the govt they will come and take 'yo shyte'!

IMO, Obama is in a tough situation ... as the president, he is doing his best to separate church and state, but as a strong christian, he is doing his best for the less fortunate ... he is feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick etc with his policies ... in fact, this time last year he was helping out the people who were affected by superstorm sandy when he could have just been on the campaign trail... so much so that Chris Christie could do nothing but praise BHO ...

Neezar
10-31-2013, 04:49 PM
IMO, Obama is in a tough situation ... as the president, he is doing his best to separate church and state, but as a strong christian, he is doing his best for the less fortunate ... he is feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick etc with his policies ... in fact, this time last year he was helping out the people who were affected by superstorm sandy when he could have just been on the campaign trail... so much so that Chris Christie could do nothing but praise BHO ...

How is Obamacare taking care of the sick?

rearnakedchoke
10-31-2013, 04:53 PM
How is Obamacare taking care of the sick?

its making sure people who are sick are getting taken care of .. those without insurance put off going to a doctor for treatment ... by having insurance, most people won't be doing this ... as time goes, the US population will get healthier .. if people are going to get cheaper premiums for being healthy, they will start taking better care of themselves ...

Neezar
10-31-2013, 05:03 PM
its making sure people who are sick are getting taken care of .. those without insurance put off going to a doctor for treatment ... by having insurance, most people won't be doing this ... as time goes, the US population will get healthier .. if people are going to get cheaper premiums for being healthy, ( who says they will get cheaper premiums? ) they will start taking better care of themselves ...

It does nothing to ensure people are getting taken care of. It has nothing to do with what kind of care they are provided.

There was a study done backed by people supporting obamacare. It showed that the people who received the best care between states in the US depended on the care that medical personnel/facilities provided. And it had nothing to do with whether or not the people had health insurance. So if the goal was better care then why not put more/better regulations on the kind of care provided to the people? Because that would not generate money for the government.

Does having car insurance make you a better driver?

People take better care of themselves if they can't afford to get sick. lol

rearnakedchoke
10-31-2013, 05:18 PM
It does nothing to ensure people are getting taken care of. It has nothing to do with what kind of care they are provided.

There was a study done backed by people supporting obamacare. It showed that the people who received the best care between states in the US depended on the care that medical personnel/facilities provided. And it had nothing to do with whether or not the people had health insurance. So if the goal was better care then why not put more/better regulations on the kind of care provided to the people? Because that would not generate money for the government.

Does having car insurance make you a better driver?

People take better care of themselves if they can't afford to get sick. lol

the idea of your premiums going up makes you a better driver ...

and no, people aren't taking care of themselves .. if that were the case, the US wouldn't be one of the most unhealthiest nations ... i think the current US model is something other countries with universal healthcare (like Canada) are going to start moving towards ...

Neezar
10-31-2013, 05:34 PM
the idea of your premiums going up makes you a better driver ...



Then the idea of "I can't afford to get sick because I don't have any health insurance" should be a better motivator than "Well, now I have insurance so I might as well use it." :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
10-31-2013, 08:46 PM
not if you are paying the premiums that get higher with more claims... it will be good to fall back on, and is good when used as a proactive measure ...

Neezar
10-31-2013, 09:01 PM
not if you are paying the premiums that get higher with more claims... it will be good to fall back on, and is good when used as a proactive measure ...

http://martaariza.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/diversion.jpg

Where are you getting the 'higher premium with more claims' thing? Is that in Obamacare?

NateR
11-02-2013, 03:43 PM
not if you are paying the premiums that get higher with more claims... it will be good to fall back on, and is good when used as a proactive measure ...

So, what you're basically saying is that health insurance is great as long as you never get sick. But if you do actually get sick and… gasp! :scared0011: …actually need to use that thing that you've been paying money into every month, then you should expect to be punished with higher premiums.

NateR
11-02-2013, 03:46 PM
the idea of your premiums going up makes you a better driver ...


The idea of wanting to avoid a traffic ticket makes me a better driver. Also, considering the safety of those around me makes me a better driver. My car insurance payments rarely enter my mind when I'm behind the wheel. So that argument doesn't hold water.

TexasRN
11-03-2013, 12:51 AM
I know a lot of younger people who are just going to take the penalty instead of signing up for insurance. For a family of 4 here in NC, it'll cost approximately $900 a month to insure everyone. Most families of 4 that I know, can't afford to add another bill of $900 a month. That's more than a lot of people's house payments here.

I'm lucky that I still get my employer plan. A lot of others don't have that option anymore thanks to the new laws.


~Amy

rearnakedchoke
11-04-2013, 04:55 PM
So, what you're basically saying is that health insurance is great as long as you never get sick. But if you do actually get sick and… gasp! :scared0011: …actually need to use that thing that you've been paying money into every month, then you should expect to be punished with higher premiums.

thats just like anything .. go and get into a couple of accidents and see what happens .. claims around general checkups, hospital stays for acute illnesses probably shouldn't affect your claims .... more chronic long term issues related to poor lifestyles choices like gastric bypass surgery etc may indeed push the needle on the premiums .. like i said, this is a long term solution ... it is similar to the program in Japan .. and they have one of the healthiest populations ...

CAVEMAN1
11-04-2013, 05:55 PM
IMO, Obama is in a tough situation ... as the president, he is doing his best to separate church and state, but as a strong christian, he is doing his best for the less fortunate ... he is feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick etc with his policies ... in fact, this time last year he was helping out the people who were affected by superstorm sandy when he could have just been on the campaign trail... so much so that Chris Christie could do nothing but praise BHO ...


Dude, are you serious?:blink:

CAVEMAN1
11-04-2013, 05:57 PM
its making sure people who are sick are getting taken care of .. those without insurance put off going to a doctor for treatment ... by having insurance, most people won't be doing this ... as time goes, the US population will get healthier .. if people are going to get cheaper premiums for being healthy, they will start taking better care of themselves ...

Bull! They're going to the ER all the time because it gets paid for anyway. My wife witnesses this all the time! Obamacare is nothing more than an extension of Medicaid to the 10th power.

CAVEMAN1
11-04-2013, 06:00 PM
It does nothing to ensure people are getting taken care of. It has nothing to do with what kind of care they are provided.

There was a study done backed by people supporting obamacare. It showed that the people who received the best care between states in the US depended on the care that medical personnel/facilities provided. And it had nothing to do with whether or not the people had health insurance. So if the goal was better care then why not put more/better regulations on the kind of care provided to the people? Because that would not generate money for the government.

Does having car insurance make you a better driver?

People take better care of themselves if they can't afford to get sick. lol


:applause:

CAVEMAN1
11-04-2013, 06:10 PM
I just talked to my in-laws last night and starting January 1, their insurance premiums are doubling and they are getting less coverage. They are both retired and live on a fixed income. How is it that this is affordable for some and not for others? Wasn't it promoted as affordable healthcare for all? As always, the poor get a free ride, the rich can afford it or get a exemption, and the middle man gets the shaft and pays for it all!

NateR
11-04-2013, 07:15 PM
but as a strong christian, he is doing his best for the less fortunate ...

Dude, are you serious?:blink:

I agree, it's unlikely that Obama is a true Christian, let alone a "strong Christian." However, you can't really expect a non-believer, like RNC, to be able to tell the difference.

As for the claim that Obama is "doing his best" for the less fortunate, you just have to look at his past charitable giving to see that he's extremely generous… with other people's money. According to his tax returns that Obama released during the 2008 campaign, his charitable giving looked like this:

2005: $77,315 to charity out of income of $1.66 million (4.6 percent)
2004: $2,500 out of $207,647 (1.2 percent)
2003: $3,400 out of $238,327 (1.4 percent)
2002: $1,050 out of $259,394 (0.4 percent)

So Obama expects everyone else in the country to be more generous with our money than he is willing to be with his own money. That is about as far from "doing his best" for the less fortunate as you can get.

CAVEMAN1
11-04-2013, 08:25 PM
I agree, it's unlikely that Obama is a true Christian, let alone a "strong Christian." However, you can't really expect a non-believer, like RNC, to be able to tell the difference.

As for the claim that Obama is "doing his best" for the less fortunate, you just have to look at his past charitable giving to see that he's extremely generous… with other people's money. According to his tax returns that Obama released during the 2008 campaign, his charitable giving looked like this:

2005: $77,315 to charity out of income of $1.66 million (4.6 percent)
2004: $2,500 out of $207,647 (1.2 percent)
2003: $3,400 out of $238,327 (1.4 percent)
2002: $1,050 out of $259,394 (0.4 percent)

So Obama expects everyone else in the country to be more generous with our money than he is willing to be with his own money. That is about as far from "doing his best" for the less fortunate as you can get.

Agreed! And what he did give surely was written off at tax time!:)

rearnakedchoke
11-05-2013, 02:00 PM
I agree, it's unlikely that Obama is a true Christian, let alone a "strong Christian." However, you can't really expect a non-believer, like RNC, to be able to tell the difference.

As for the claim that Obama is "doing his best" for the less fortunate, you just have to look at his past charitable giving to see that he's extremely generous… with other people's money. According to his tax returns that Obama released during the 2008 campaign, his charitable giving looked like this:

2005: $77,315 to charity out of income of $1.66 million (4.6 percent)
2004: $2,500 out of $207,647 (1.2 percent)
2003: $3,400 out of $238,327 (1.4 percent)
2002: $1,050 out of $259,394 (0.4 percent)

So Obama expects everyone else in the country to be more generous with our money than he is willing to be with his own money. That is about as far from "doing his best" for the less fortunate as you can get.

i was quite serious .. i guess tho, i should have just said Christian and not strong Christian .. you either are or aren't right? and i guess everyone should base their giving to charity based on what goes on the tax form ... donating items, volunteering time doesn't count .. in that case, mitt romney giving millions to the LDS makes him a saint!!!!

as for obama, he is doing the better job of charitible donations by changing the laws ... making sure the poor, hungry and sick are taken care of by his policies ... and when the dems win in 2016 again, the people of america will have spoken, just like they did in 2008 and 2012 ...

CAVEMAN1
11-05-2013, 05:35 PM
i was quite serious .. i guess tho, i should have just said Christian and not strong Christian .. you either are or aren't right? and i guess everyone should base their giving to charity based on what goes on the tax form ... donating items, volunteering time doesn't count .. in that case, mitt romney giving millions to the LDS makes him a saint!!!!

as for obama, he is doing the better job of charitible donations by changing the laws ... making sure the poor, hungry and sick are taken care of by his policies ... and when the dems win in 2016 again, the people of america will have spoken, just like they did in 2008 and 2012 ...

Did you know that the church of LDS is considered a cult by most protestant churches? Therefore, Mitt is no more a christian than you claim Obama is...........So let me get this straight, you equate Obama's policies with Christianity? His stand on abortion? His stand on gay marriage? His stand on the constitution? His stand on the interpretation of separation of church & state?

And as far as giving goes.......since when can you rob someone else of what is rightfully theirs and bestow it on someone else and truly call it giving?:wink:

It's not called giving, it's called socialism!

rearnakedchoke
11-05-2013, 07:26 PM
Did you know that the church of LDS is considered a cult by most protestant churches? Therefore, Mitt is no more a christian than you claim Obama is...........So let me get this straight, you equate Obama's policies with Christianity? His stand on abortion? His stand on gay marriage? His stand on the constitution? His stand on the interpretation of separation of church & state?

And as far as giving goes.......since when can you rob someone else of what is rightfully theirs and bestow it on someone else and truly call it giving?:wink:

It's not called giving, it's called socialism!

obama is a government official who was voted in to do what the people want .. since you have the freedom of religion, people are free to choose what religion they want to follow, and are not to be bound by what Christianity says is right and wrong ...

CAVEMAN1
11-05-2013, 09:54 PM
obama is a government official who was voted in to do what the people want .. since you have the freedom of religion, people are free to choose what religion they want to follow, and are not to be bound by what Christianity says is right and wrong ...


Uh......your the one that claimed he was a christian, right? I mean you more or less said that Obama was displaying that he is a christian by his policies. Plus, you did not answer my question............is robbing from someone else and bestowing upon another, truly giving?

Neezar
11-06-2013, 02:32 PM
I
as for obama, he is doing the better job of charitible donations by changing the laws ... making sure the poor, hungry and sick are taken care of by his policies ... and when the dems win in 2016 again, the people of america will have spoken, just like they did in 2008 and 2012 ...

He is causing millions to lose their already established, affordable healthcare. He is taking food off people's tables by forcing them to purchase his insurance. He is making millions of people poorer!

It takes a blind fool not to see this!

Obamacare insurance is ••••ty insurance. And it costs more than insurance was costing the people who cared about having it anyway.

Tyburn
11-06-2013, 04:09 PM
He is causing millions to lose their already established, affordable healthcare. He is taking food off people's tables by forcing them to purchase his insurance. He is making millions of people poorer!

It takes a blind fool not to see this!

Obamacare insurance is ••••ty insurance. And it costs more than insurance was costing the people who cared about having it anyway.

Thats the point.

its nothing but a stealth tax, and that extra money is nothing but another income for the Federal Government.

This was NEVER about Health, NEVER about the provision of health, Never about the affordability of Health. This was about generating another income for the Federal Government.

IF you dont need the insurance, or never have to use it...dont think your money sits in some bank account rotting...its being used, to raise your debt ceiling, to spy on your activities, and to bribe votes on tightening gun restrictions :mellow:

Rebellion against Tyrany is Obedience to GOD....so said a famous American once...No wonder Congress decided not to stick with that motto :laugh:

Neezar
11-06-2013, 10:01 PM
Thats the point.

its nothing but a stealth tax, and that extra money is nothing but another income for the Federal Government.

This was NEVER about Health, NEVER about the provision of health, Never about the affordability of Health. This was about generating another income for the Federal Government.

IF you dont need the insurance, or never have to use it...dont think your money sits in some bank account rotting...its being used, to raise your debt ceiling, to spy on your activities, and to bribe votes on tightening gun restrictions :mellow:

Rebellion against Tyrany is Obedience to GOD....so said a famous American once...No wonder Congress decided not to stick with that motto :laugh:

:laugh:

CAVEMAN1
11-07-2013, 07:01 PM
He is causing millions to lose their already established, affordable healthcare. He is taking food off people's tables by forcing them to purchase his insurance. He is making millions of people poorer!

It takes a blind fool not to see this!

Obamacare insurance is ••••ty insurance. And it costs more than insurance was costing the people who cared about having it anyway.

Bingo!:applause:

CAVEMAN1
11-07-2013, 07:04 PM
Thats the point.

its nothing but a stealth tax, and that extra money is nothing but another income for the Federal Government.

This was NEVER about Health, NEVER about the provision of health, Never about the affordability of Health. This was about generating another income for the Federal Government.

IF you dont need the insurance, or never have to use it...dont think your money sits in some bank account rotting...its being used, to raise your debt ceiling, to spy on your activities, and to bribe votes on tightening gun restrictions :mellow:

Rebellion against Tyrany is Obedience to GOD....so said a famous American once...No wonder Congress decided not to stick with that motto :laugh:

Even a britishman gets it!:cool: Dave, you need to come live here!

NateR
11-09-2013, 01:31 AM
And as far as giving goes.......since when can you rob someone else of what is rightfully theirs and bestow it on someone else and truly call it giving?:wink:

It's not called giving, it's called socialism!

That's the core difference between Christianity and socialism. Christianity says, "What's mine in yours," and is rooted in a sense of generosity and compassion for others. Socialism says, "What's yours is mine," and is rooted in entitlement and a spirit of covetousness.

Anyways, I heard today that currently only 22% of the people logging onto the Obamacare website (or attempting to log on, because the site is non-functional) are the uninsured looking to gain health insurance. The other 78% are people who currently have health insurance, but will lose it because of Obamacare on January 1st. So basically the majority of people attempting to sign up for Obamacare are trying to keep from losing something that they already have.

How was this supposed to fix our healthcare system again? If the goal was to force millions of Americans to lose the health insurance they've been paying for for years, then I guess you could say that it succeeded.

Bonnie
11-10-2013, 03:36 AM
That's the core difference between Christianity and socialism. Christianity says, "What's mine in yours," and is rooted in a sense of generosity and compassion for others. Socialism says, "What's yours is mine," and is rooted in entitlement and a spirit of covetousness.

Anyways, I heard today that currently only 22% of the people logging onto the Obamacare website (or attempting to log on, because the site is non-functional) are the uninsured looking to gain health insurance. The other 78% are people who currently have health insurance, but will lose it because of Obamacare on January 1st. So basically the majority of people attempting to sign up for Obamacare are trying to keep from losing something that they already have.

How was this supposed to fix our healthcare system again? If the goal was to force millions of Americans to lose the health insurance they've been paying for for years, then I guess you could say that it succeeded.

THAT's exactly what they intended all along to force people into the Obamacare exchanges. Once the employer mandate starts even more people will be losing their insurance. They showed a news clip from a 2010 conference where Republican Eric Cantor was telling Obama their concern that people were going to be losing their insurance plans with Obamacare so Obama can't claim ignorance, he knew what was going to happen. The law was written with that intent, it's not some unintended consequence.

TexasRN
11-10-2013, 01:25 PM
THAT's exactly what they intended all along to force people into the Obamacare exchanges. Once the employer mandate starts even more people will be losing their insurance. They showed a news clip from a 2010 conference where Republican Eric Cantor was telling Obama their concern that people were going to be losing their insurance plans with Obamacare so Obama can't claim ignorance, he knew what was going to happen. The law was written with that intent, it's not some unintended consequence.

You are exactly right, Bonnie. My husband says he believes Obama and his administration is screwing all of this up on purpose to justify going to a single payer system later on to "fix" the problems and cover everyone. He swears there's a long term plan that we haven't even begun to see yet. I'm sure he's right.


~Amy

rearnakedchoke
11-12-2013, 02:11 PM
Did you know that the church of LDS is considered a cult by most protestant churches? Therefore, Mitt is no more a christian than you claim Obama is...........So let me get this straight, you equate Obama's policies with Christianity? His stand on abortion? His stand on gay marriage? His stand on the constitution? His stand on the interpretation of separation of church & state?

And as far as giving goes.......since when can you rob someone else of what is rightfully theirs and bestow it on someone else and truly call it giving?:wink:

It's not called giving, it's called socialism!

i guess you consider reagan a christian??? he signed an abortion bill in cali? but i guess if you say later on that you probably shouldn't have signed it, its ok ... he also favoured rights for the gay community which wasn't popular at the time ... but he did it for the sake of his voters ...