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AMJ
02-14-2010, 08:17 AM
I was having a discussion with a friend about religion and this scenario was presented. I would like to hear your take on the matter.

If two babies were born in two different countries and each country had a single dominant religion, how each child turns out is based on the family and country they were born into. In essence, Baby A is born in Country X and is exposed to 1 religion, whereas Baby B was born in Country Y and is raised in a different religion. Each are taught that that their religion is the correct one and is the only way to salvation.

Baby A and B would not have a choice in determining their belief system or the avenue that best speaks to them. How can you blame that child when it is growing up in an environment where he/she is only doing what their family is teaching them. When they grow older, there beliefs would obviously be of a visceral nature and not be so easy to just toss aside.

Baby A and B eventually grow into Adults, and they reinforce what they were taught to to their children, and the cycle continues.

The obvious conclusion is that it essentially comes down to where you are born and the family, and you as an individual cannot determine where you are born. Therefore, you are basically born into that religion and don't have much of a choice in the matter. So how can you ever have an opportunity to "join" the right team, or is it not about the right religion and just a matter of being a good person? I am curious to hear your take on the scenario and how your faith addresses it. I don't know the first thing to any religion, i'm just curious

Anyways, I look forward to hearing your responses. Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, please move it to the appropriate section if need be.

AMJ

Rev
02-14-2010, 09:00 AM
AWESOME POST!!!!!

I was brought up with alot of "folk theology" and wrong beliefs. And just like your story, I believed them and told others about them and spread them like I thought I was supposed to. Eventually I felt burdened to study the word for myself and found the real truths and continue to find them.
I know that this is just my case but I cant assure you that a question like this one and the ones that I am sure will come with it, will never be answered fully. I could be wrong and I hope and pray that I am, I would love to find answers to these arguments.

I am looking forward to the discussion to follow, but will most likely keep quiet.

NateR
02-14-2010, 09:12 AM
Well, you seem to be working under the assumption that GOD is not real and all religions are false at their very core.

I would like to know your thoughts on GOD and the Bible before I go any deeper.

AMJ
02-14-2010, 05:09 PM
Well, you seem to be working under the assumption that GOD is not real and all religions are false at their very core.

I would like to know your thoughts on GOD and the Bible before I go any deeper.

Fair enough, i'll do my best to answer your inquiry. However, I don't think I implied that God isn't real or that any religion is absolutely false. My personal views on the matter is that I just don't know, and I won't refute or deny the existence of a God. As for the Bible, I've never studied it (nor other religions like Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam) and I do not proclaim to have any knowledge outside of the questions i've googled or asked to qualied people in my eyes.

Back to my point: I'm not questioning the legitimacy of any religion or the existence of God.I am just curious how your faith/opinion (i'm sure they are both strongly correlated) addresses the above scenario. I think a person has the right to choose to practice whatever religion that gives them peace and does not intrude on other's beliefs.

The premise of my post is that a person's religion is technically a by-product of where that person is born, and that person has no control over it. So, how could someone ever reach salvation if they never had a chance to be exposed to other religions, even if they did in my scenario, they most likely did at a superficial level.

Do you see where I am getting at? If not, i'll try and clarify if you pinpoint what you're not clear on from my post.

Vizion
02-14-2010, 05:25 PM
If two babies were born in two different countries and each country had a single dominant religion, how each child turns out is based on the family and country they were born into. In essence, Baby A is born in Country X and is exposed to 1 religion, whereas Baby B was born in Country Y and is raised in a different religion. Each are taught that that their religion is the correct one and is the only way to salvation.

Baby A and B would not have a choice in determining their belief system or the avenue that best speaks to them. How can you blame that child when it is growing up in an environment where he/she is only doing what their family is teaching them. When they grow older, there beliefs would obviously be of a visceral nature and not be so easy to just toss aside.

Baby A and B eventually grow into Adults, and they reinforce what they were taught to to their children, and the cycle continues.

The obvious conclusion is that it essentially comes down to where you are born and the family, and you as an individual cannot determine where you are born. Therefore, you are basically born into that religion and don't have much of a choice in the matter. So how can you ever have an opportunity to "join" the right team, or is it not about the right religion and just a matter of being a good person? I am curious to hear your take on the scenario and how your faith addresses it. I don't know the first thing to any religion, i'm just curious

1. Satan wants us to think its all about being a "good person" but Romans 3:23 says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Being a good person means nothing to God, for as it says in Isaiah 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unclean,and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

2. Look, man decided to depart from God. People who went wherever and decided to worship false idols, embedding false idolatry deep into their cultures...well, can't blame God for that. However, just because someone was born in the US, where there are 20 million churches, as opposed to India, where there are 200, doesn't mean that they cannot find the one true God. Each person has a soul. Every person searches for God, even you are searching. Looking for Him and seeking Him are different things. A person who grew up Hindu can certainly find God if he is seeking Him. God knows our heart. There are probably more Christians in China right now than there are in the U.S.

bradwright
02-14-2010, 05:55 PM
religion for the most part is a faith based product.....there is no proof one way or the other whether God exists or if Jesus ever actually walked the earth.
its the same for every other religion out there,there is no proof for anyone that any God that people wish to worship actually exists.
that is why you see different religions around the world.
as far as which God should people believe in ? well maybe pick the one that sends a compassionate message...not one that tells everyone to go out and kill in his name...pretty sure those one's are just not real.:wink:
we are all influenced by our different cultures in a very big way but at the end of the day common sense should help you decide if what you have been taught over the years is practical or not.
some people believe in God because they actually do think God is real,while others say they believe in God but really only to cover all their bases just in case God really does exist...dont be one of those.
religion is good and i hope you come to believe in God at some point in time buti think the most important thing is really just to be a good person
and treat EVERYONE you encounter in life with respect and things should work out just fine....for the most part anyway.:)

Vizion
02-14-2010, 06:09 PM
religion for the most part is a faith based product.....there is no proof one way or the other whether God exists or if Jesus ever actually walked the earth.That's not true. There is evidence that Jesus lived. And so what if religion is faith based? Faith is the belief in the unseen. You have to have faith to believe in love right? You certainly can't see it can you?

Mark
02-14-2010, 06:13 PM
1. Satan wants us to think its all about being a "good person" but Romans 3:23 says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Being a good person means nothing to God, for as it says in Isaiah 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unclean,and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

2. Look, man decided to depart from God. People who went wherever and decided to worship false idols, embedding false idolatry deep into their cultures...well, can't blame God for that. However, just because someone was born in the US, where there are 20 million churches, as opposed to India, where there are 200, doesn't mean that they cannot find the one true God. Each person has a soul. Every person searches for God, even you are searching. Looking for Him and seeking Him are different things. A person who grew up Hindu can certainly find God if he is seeking Him. God knows our heart. There are probably more Christians in China right now than there are in the U.S.

I like your post.

Mark
02-14-2010, 06:16 PM
there is no proof one way or the other whether God exists or if Jesus ever actually walked the earth.

What about the Bible? Do you not believe anything in a book? Only the things you see with your eyes.

NateR
02-14-2010, 06:23 PM
Fair enough, i'll do my best to answer your inquiry. However, I don't think I implied that God isn't real or that any religion is absolutely false. My personal views on the matter is that I just don't know, and I won't refute or deny the existence of a God. As for the Bible, I've never studied it (nor other religions like Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam) and I do not proclaim to have any knowledge outside of the questions i've googled or asked to qualied people in my eyes.

Back to my point: I'm not questioning the legitimacy of any religion or the existence of God.I am just curious how your faith/opinion (i'm sure they are both strongly correlated) addresses the above scenario. I think a person has the right to choose to practice whatever religion that gives them peace and does not intrude on other's beliefs.

The premise of my post is that a person's religion is technically a by-product of where that person is born, and that person has no control over it. So, how could someone ever reach salvation if they never had a chance to be exposed to other religions, even if they did in my scenario, they most likely did at a superficial level.

Do you see where I am getting at? If not, i'll try and clarify if you pinpoint what you're not clear on from my post.

Okay, well we have to first clarify exactly what religion is. In essence all religions are manmade institutions that use spiritual principles to influence and guide actions here on Earth. So, if you are just looking for something to give you some semblance of inner peace and harmony with the people around you, then pretty much any religion that is the majority religion of the area you live in will accomplish that; but that has nothing to do with if those religions are true or not.

This is where Christianity breaks from the mold, because Jesus Christ was actually more concerned with our lives after we died, than here on earth. There were sermons about loving others and how to treat people well, but they were almost always punctuated with a warning of hellfire and torment for those who didn't listen. Jesus actually talked about Hell more than He talked about Heaven.

Jesus also warned of how His words would cause disharmony and strife even within families.

So, to say that the purpose of Christianity is to do good works, to help people, and to live in harmony with your fellow man would be inaccurate. The purpose of Christianity is to bring us into repentance and a personal relationship with GOD.

Anyways, back to your point. If these people in your example are just looking to live in harmony with others and only want to be known as good people, then whatever religion they choose will basically accomplish that simple goal. However, they are missing the point. How we behave here on earth is the byproduct of knowing GOD, not a path to GOD. In other words, you have to know GOD first, then the good works and charitable deeds follow afterwards. Religion has it backwards.

As CS Lewis put it, "Religion is man seeking God, Christianity is God seeking man."

If people are truly seeking a relationship with GOD, then no religion on earth is going to fill that need. And they will never find true happiness or inner peace until they get that personal relationship with GOD, no matter what religion they have chosen. This would apply to Christianity as well, since a vast majority of Christians have no personal relationship with GOD and think that they can somehow earn their way into Heaven with enough good works. They're essentially spitting in the face of Christ and telling Him that His sacrifice was not adequate and they can do better.

So, basically, if you only see religion as a form of social conditioning and mass manipulation, then they all essentially have the same goals. However, the hole that people try to fill with religion is too deep for any religion to fill. Only GOD can fill that need within us and He reveals Himself to whoever earnestly seeks Him, no matter what culture, nation or religion they have been raised under.

Chris F
02-14-2010, 06:32 PM
religion will not save anyone. Every human is born with innate ability to Worship God this is why people in the jungle invent religions. The truth is out there and the Holy Spirit will reveal Himself to those whom were predestined unto salvation by God. Upon conviction that person then must make the choice to submit to God or self. So everyone no matter where they are born has a chance.

Tyburn
02-14-2010, 06:40 PM
I was having a discussion with a friend about religion and this scenario was presented. I would like to hear your take on the matter.

If two babies were born in two different countries and each country had a single dominant religion, how each child turns out is based on the family and country they were born into. In essence, Baby A is born in Country X and is exposed to 1 religion, whereas Baby B was born in Country Y and is raised in a different religion. Each are taught that that their religion is the correct one and is the only way to salvation.

Baby A and B would not have a choice in determining their belief system or the avenue that best speaks to them. How can you blame that child when it is growing up in an environment where he/she is only doing what their family is teaching them. When they grow older, there beliefs would obviously be of a visceral nature and not be so easy to just toss aside.

Baby A and B eventually grow into Adults, and they reinforce what they were taught to to their children, and the cycle continues.

The obvious conclusion is that it essentially comes down to where you are born and the family, and you as an individual cannot determine where you are born. Therefore, you are basically born into that religion and don't have much of a choice in the matter. So how can you ever have an opportunity to "join" the right team, or is it not about the right religion and just a matter of being a good person? I am curious to hear your take on the scenario and how your faith addresses it. I don't know the first thing to any religion, i'm just curious

Anyways, I look forward to hearing your responses. Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, please move it to the appropriate section if need be.

AMJ

Several things are a miss with this scenario. First in the post modern world, it is growing more unlikely that a child is taught, properly, any form of religion at all.

Secondly...the scenario implies that the Child will never question his belief, and never search out a system of belief for himself.

GOD says that you must seek him...you must actively look for him. Seek and Ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.

Any logical person when becoming an adult will question their beliefs. Its part of what happens during puberty usually. It is unwise to have whats known as blind faith in anything. You must question...the truth will not be corroded under interrogation.

Search, and do not cease from it, until you find what you are looking for and what makes you whole. Only GOD will fill that void, but you must find him more often then not. It takes a bit of effort. People these days are much to lazy to even begin to question existentially let alone look for an absolute answer.

Finally, you might be suprised that its considered an innate ability to look for something on the spiritual level, and you might also be suprised to discover your not looking for a religion in the orthodox sense of the word. Your looking for a person. Your looking to have a personal relationship with your creator, its a far cry from the Church more often then not, I am quite ashamed to say.

Tyburn
02-14-2010, 06:46 PM
1) I think a person has the right to choose to practice whatever religion that gives them peace and does not intrude on other's beliefs.

2) The premise of my post is that a person's religion is technically a by-product of where that person is born, and that person has no control over it. .

1) True peace can only come from GOD...and Religions by their definition, think they are right, and they dont live peacefully with each other. They cant all be right.

2) How do you explain the Father of TutAnkhAmun?? He was brought up in Ancient Egypt, and when he became King, he erased the entire parthanon of gods, for a single God. He was convinced there was but one God...and he called his son after that belief Ankh is the Egyptian word for Eternal Life...Amun is a non plural term for God.

No wonder his son was murdered before he could reign...we dont even pronounce his name properly, so the individual words that make up his name are lost on us...how ironic

NateR
02-14-2010, 06:50 PM
religion for the most part is a faith based product.....there is no proof one way or the other whether God exists or if Jesus ever actually walked the earth.
its the same for every other religion out there,there is no proof for anyone that any God that people wish to worship actually exists.
that is why you see different religions around the world.
as far as which God should people believe in ? well maybe pick the one that sends a compassionate message...not one that tells everyone to go out and kill in his name...pretty sure those one's are just not real.:wink:
we are all influenced by our different cultures in a very big way but at the end of the day common sense should help you decide if what you have been taught over the years is practical or not.
some people believe in God because they actually do think God is real,while others say they believe in God but really only to cover all their bases just in case God really does exist...dont be one of those.
religion is good and i hope you come to believe in God at some point in time buti think the most important thing is really just to be a good person
and treat EVERYONE you encounter in life with respect and things should work out just fine....for the most part anyway.:)

Some problems with this:

1. GOD does give evidence and the historical evidence of Jesus' life, death, AND resurrection is overwhelming.

There are over 20,000 ancient copies of the New Testament manuscripts. All hand copied and all nearly identical to each other (considering these all come from a time centuries before the printing press, that is an astounding fact). This makes the New Testament the #1 most reliable text by historical standards. There are over 5,600 ancient copies of the entire Bible in existence. To give a sense of what this means, you'd have to compare these numbers to other ancient historical documents:
The history of Thucydides (460-400 BC) - 8 manuscripts
Aristotle's poetics - 5 manuscripts
Caesar's history of the Gallic Wars - 10 manuscripts
Tacitus' Annals of Imperial Rome (116 AD) - 1 manuscript (and this is only books 1-6 of 16)
Josephus' The Jewish War - 9 manuscripts
The Iliad - 643 manuscripts
The writings of Socrates - 0 manuscripts (we have no evidence of Socrates' existence except in the notes taken by his students)

So you can see that the external historical evidence of the Biblical text is overwhelming in comparison to other ancient writings.

2. Then there is also the physical evidence that GOD provides:

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

Basically the physical universe around us is the greatest evidence of GOD's existence. You can't explain the universe without GOD, modern science has tried for over 100 years but always fails and can only conjure up wild theories that border on science fiction.

So, what this means is that the natural world around us is all the evidence of GOD that we need and, more importantly, it's all the evidence that most people are going to get. Those who recognize GOD and actively seek Him are usually granted more evidence of Him to strengthen their faith. However, belief in GOD must come first, then the evidence follows.

3. You are ignoring the existence of Satan as an entity who is actively working to deceive and mislead the entire world.

Tyburn
02-14-2010, 07:01 PM
I like your post.

:laugh:

bradwright
02-14-2010, 07:28 PM
What about the Bible? Do you not believe anything in a book? Only the things you see with your eyes.

basically the Bible is a book of stories of Gods word and also depicts the life of Jesus on earth....i know there is a lot more to it then that but those are the basics.
and none of it can be proven one way or the other.
and thats fine because thats where faith comes in....and there is nothing wrong with having faith.
as far as believing anything in a book go's ?...most of the time i only believe things that can be proven to be fact.

i was talking to someone one time about religion and he told me a person couldn't possibly believe in God unless they believed everything in the Bible was true.

i'm sorry but i just dont see it that way....i believe in God but i dont believe everything in the Bible to be accurate.

Tyburn
02-14-2010, 10:05 PM
i was talking to someone one time about religion and he told me a person couldn't possibly believe in God unless they believed everything in the Bible was true.

i'm sorry but i just dont see it that way....i believe in God but i dont believe everything in the Bible to be accurate.

Brad...if I wrote you a book, and I promised you it was all true...and you told me that you didnt believe that all of it was true...some of it...but not all of it...then I would ask you if you are calling me a liar.

GOD tells you its true...if you dont believe that, you are saying that GOD is telling you a porky-pie....and if he's lying about that you may as well forget it all, because some of the "stories" are so outrageous they begger belief...I mean...Christ is really GOD? Christ really came back to life after being killed??

Its quite simple...its either of absolute importance...or its a bunch of crap...you cant partly believe and partly not...because it makes too many wild claims...its either truth or lies....GOD says its true...he promised you its True...

...are you calling him a liar??? :unsure-1:

bradwright
02-14-2010, 10:59 PM
Brad...if I wrote you a book, and I promised you it was all true...and you told me that you didnt believe that all of it was true...some of it...but not all of it...then I would ask you if you are calling me a liar.

GOD tells you its true...if you dont believe that, you are saying that GOD is telling you a porky-pie....and if he's lying about that you may as well forget it all, because some of the "stories" are so outrageous they begger belief...I mean...Christ is really GOD? Christ really came back to life after being killed??

Its quite simple...its either of absolute importance...or its a bunch of crap...you cant partly believe and partly not...because it makes too many wild claims...its either truth or lies....GOD says its true...he promised you its True...

...are you calling him a liar??? :unsure-1:

no but you seem to be.

i dont look at it like you do Dave and i dont apreciate you trying to put words in my mouth.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe one of the things that i dont believe about the Bible is GOD says its all true ?
didn't think so.

Vizion
02-14-2010, 11:11 PM
basically the Bible is a book of stories of Gods word and also depicts the life of Jesus on earth....i know there is a lot more to it then that but those are the basics.
and none of it can be proven one way or the other.
To be honest, Brad, you sound like broken record. You have stated things like this before, and, well, you're starting to sound like a troll now :huh:.

bradwright
02-14-2010, 11:15 PM
To be honest, Brad, you sound like broken record. You have stated things like this before, and, well, you're starting to sound like a troll now :huh:.

really ?..:laugh:...coming from you i will take that as a compliment.

Vizion
02-14-2010, 11:31 PM
really ?..:laugh:...coming from you i will take that as a compliment.
I could care less what you think of me :rolleyes:. I'm not making a personal attack, just an observation. No offense, but seriously do you not think you repeat yourself?

You say your piece, but offer little other than your opinions. You do not challenge scripture directly, nor facts or history to support it. The concept of the Bible being "just a book written by man" argument is passe.

bradwright
02-14-2010, 11:36 PM
I could care less what you think of me :rolleyes:. I'm not making a personal attack, just an observation. No offense, but seriously do you not think you repeat yourself?

You say your piece, but offer little other than your opinions. You do not challenge scripture directly, nor facts or history to support it. The concept of the Bible being "just a book written by man" argument is passe.

seeing as how you dont bother to take the time to try and comprehend what i write before you start attacking shows me you are not interested in anything but your own opinions....so i will leave you to them.

surveyorshawn
02-14-2010, 11:41 PM
religion for the most part is a faith based product.....there is no proof one way or the other whether God exists or if Jesus ever actually walked the earth.
its the same for every other religion out there,there is no proof for anyone that any God that people wish to worship actually exists.
that is why you see different religions around the world.
as far as which God should people believe in ? well maybe pick the one that sends a compassionate message...not one that tells everyone to go out and kill in his name...pretty sure those one's are just not real.:wink:
we are all influenced by our different cultures in a very big way but at the end of the day common sense should help you decide if what you have been taught over the years is practical or not.
some people believe in God because they actually do think God is real,while others say they believe in God but really only to cover all their bases just in case God really does exist...dont be one of those.
religion is good and i hope you come to believe in God at some point in time buti think the most important thing is really just to be a good person
and treat EVERYONE you encounter in life with respect and things should work out just fine....for the most part anyway.:)

There is actually more evidence that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead than there is that Julius Caesar even existed, yet his existence (Caesar's)is normally taken as fact. That evidence is apart from the Bible, even, from other historical documents, eye witness testimony, and archaeological evidence. That is only talking about His resurrection, not even the other events of His life. In fact, in one place, over 500 people witnessed him in person after he had been crucified and buried, which is far more than necessary to convict or acquit you in a court of law. Additionally, there is an infinite amount of evidence that God exists, you may just choose not to accept it. We do, afterall, have the freedom to believe what we choose.

bradwright
02-14-2010, 11:43 PM
There is actually more evidence that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead than there is that Julius Caesar even existed, yet his existence (Caesar's)is normally taken as fact. That evidence is apart from the Bible, even, from other historical documents, eye witness testimony, and archaeological evidence. That is only talking about His resurrection, not even the other events of His life. In fact, in one place, over 500 people witnessed him in person after he had been crucified and buried, which is far more than necessary to convict or acquit you in a court of law. Additionally, there is an infinite amount of evidence that God exists, you may just choose not to accept it. We do, afterall, have the freedom to believe what we choose.

what would make you think i dont believe in God or that Jesus walked the earth ?

surveyorshawn
02-14-2010, 11:48 PM
what would make you think i dont believe in God or that Jesus walked the earth ?
I didn't claim to know what you believe at all. I highlighted the part of your post I was addressing, but for your reference, I will re-quote it here. You said "there is no proof one way or the other whether God exists or if Jesus ever actually walked the earth"
, and I was disagreeing with that particular statement.

bradwright
02-14-2010, 11:53 PM
I didn't claim to know what you believe at all. I highlighted the part of your post I was addressing, but for your reference, I will re-quote it here. You said "there is no proof one way or the other whether God exists or if Jesus ever actually walked the earth"
, and I was disagreeing with that particular statement.

okay then...all i was doing there was trying to point out to AMJ that religion is based on faith.

but i still disagree with you on your point that you can prove God exists.

Tyburn
02-15-2010, 12:03 AM
no but you seem to be.

i dont look at it like you do Dave and i dont apreciate you trying to put words in my mouth.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe one of the things that i dont believe about the Bible is GOD says its all true ?
didn't think so.


Did you ever stop to think how GOD would feel about you saying his book isnt the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth :huh:

he has done so much for you, and you still dont believe him. Actions like yours actually cause him to Lament in the Book of Ezekiel for the best part of FIFTEEN CHAPTERS...on and on, and on he goes about what he must do, in the hopes that with a push, or some discipline, or some love, or something, they will accept him as GOD, and value his Book....He gets extremely emotional


]"On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. 5 No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised.

6 " 'Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!" [a] 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. [b] Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare.

8 " 'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine.

9 " 'I bathed [c] you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you. 10 I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put leather sandals on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments. 11 I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, 12 and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. 14 And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD.

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?[/COLOR]

bradwright
02-15-2010, 12:11 AM
Did you ever stop to think how GOD would feel about you saying his book isnt the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth :huh:

he has done so much for you, and you still dont believe him. Actions like yours actually cause him to Lament in the Book of Ezekiel for the best part of FIFTEEN CHAPTERS...on and on, and on he goes about what he must do, in the hopes that with a push, or some discipline, or some love, or something, they will accept him as GOD, and value his Book....He gets extremely emotional


]"On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. 5 No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised.

6 " 'Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!" [a] 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. [b] Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare.

8 " 'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine.

9 " 'I bathed [c] you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you. 10 I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put leather sandals on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments. 11 I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, 12 and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. 14 And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD.

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?[/COLOR]

i never said i didn't believe God....i said i dont believe God ever said the Bible was the absolute truth.

Vizion
02-15-2010, 12:12 AM
but i still disagree with you on your point that you can prove God exists.
Can you prove love exists?

Tyburn
02-15-2010, 12:13 AM
i never said i didn't believe God....i said i dont believe God ever said the Bible was the absolute truth.

show me where he says His Word is not absolute Truth.

You can proove the Bible is not true I assume :)

bradwright
02-15-2010, 12:21 AM
show me where he says His Word is not absolute Truth.

You can proove the Bible is not true I assume :)

you dont understand what i'm saying Dave.
i think SOMEONE other then God claims the Bible to be the absolute truth.


and as far as i can prove the Bible isn't true ?

yes i can but only as well as you can prove it is true.
thats the problem here...it isn't provable either way or it would have already been done.
i believe a lot of whats in the Bible but some of it i dont...i just think its been embellished by the humans that wrote it.

surveyorshawn
02-15-2010, 12:23 AM
okay then...all i was doing there was trying to point out to AMJ that religion is based on faith.

but i still disagree with you on your point that you can prove God exists.

You have the right to disagree, and I totally respect that. I did not, however say that I personally could prove that God exists, I said there is in existence an infinite amount of evidence that He exists. I do believe that I can prove He exists, and have done so to some people. I don't, however, believe that either I nor anyone else can prove it to you, though, since you do not believe it can be proven. It is harder unless you have a neutral frame of mind up front with no predisposition, although many staunch atheists have been convinced and have themselves found evidence that He exists and changed their views, so nothing is impossible. The fact that you said you don't believe it can be proven precludes you from having a neutral point of view, but it certainly does not keep you from believing He exists, or from at some point seeing and believing that the evidence is there. Whether you ever do or not, well, we're still both Matt Hughes fans, lol.

bradwright
02-15-2010, 12:29 AM
You have the right to disagree, and I totally respect that. I did not, however say that I personally could prove that God exists, I said there is in existence an infinite amount of evidence that He exists. I do believe that I can prove He exists, and have done so to some people. I don't, however, believe that either I nor anyone else can prove it to you, though, since you do not believe it can be proven. It is harder unless you have a neutral frame of mind up front with no predisposition, although many staunch atheists have been convinced and have themselves found evidence that He exists and changed their views, so nothing is impossible. The fact that you said you don't believe it can be proven precludes you from having a neutral point of view, but it certainly does not keep you from believing He exists, or from at some point seeing and believing that the evidence is there. Whether you ever do or not, well, we're still both Matt Hughes fans, lol.

i'm not here to run anyone down for their beliefs....i think its great that people can believe everything written in the Bible is the truth.

bradwright
02-15-2010, 12:35 AM
I would just like to say that i dont understand the Bible the way most of you do and maybe thats why i struggle with it.
it was never my intentions to cause any problems here and because i really dont like to be considered a troll by some on here then i will from here on out refrain from posting in the Christianity section of the forum.

thanks for the input though....i really did learn some things.

surveyorshawn
02-15-2010, 12:48 AM
i'm not here to run anyone down for their beliefs....i think its great that people can believe everything written in the Bible is the truth.

I appreciate you saying that, Brad. I'm not offended. I've been thinking about what you and Dave were discussing about whether God did or didn't say that all if the things written in the Bible are absolutely true. Immediately a verse came to mind that says that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine, teaching, instruction, correction, etc., but to even accept that, you must have a certain measure of faith, and it takes us right back to something that a lot of people who aren't Christians, or who question the authenticity of the Bible ask, and that is that God did not personally come down to earth and write any of the Bible at all, so how can we accept any of it, or know what to accept and what not to accept?
This is certainly not something that can be solved for you or even properly addressed in an internet thread. Perhaps some of the other learned guys on here can chime in, but basically, I challenge you to read the Bible and see for yourself. I think you will find that the things contained in it are not really very far fetched or hard to believe at all, and that most of the things that the secular world and people who argue its authenticity have a problem with are actually the moral responsibilities we are asked to keep. Adrien Rodgers, who passed away a few years ago, quoted a high-ranking member of the scientific establishment at the time in a sermon. I am sure I will butcher the quote, but I will attempt it, as it closely reflects the point I am trying to make.
"There are only two viable theories for how life came to be; evolution, and special creation by a supreme being. We in the scientific community prefer to hold to evolution, not because of the overwhelming preponderance of evidence, but because if we support the idea of special creation, then we are saying that there is a higher power to which we are morally accountable, and we do not wish to be accountable to anyone."

Have fun seeking the Truth!

Vizion
02-15-2010, 12:52 AM
I would just like to say that i dont understand the Bible the way most of you do and maybe thats why i struggle with it.
it was never my intentions to cause any problems here and because i really dont like to be considered a troll by some on here then i will from here on out refrain from posting in the Christianity section of the forum.Being that you are referring to me I'll just say I didn't say you are a troll, but you are beginning to sound like one by just injecting the same rhetoric again and again, thus, steering the conversation into YOUR direction, not the OP's. You probably mean not to do that however. I was making an observation.

You are searching for God just being on this forum, you can deny it all you want but its true. Better men than I have questioned God and scoffed, yet, still found Him in time, tho they swore they'd never. Don't let me turn you off or away from Him. I'm just a messenger, may be not the best, but I try. I beseech you to pray to find Him. Pray and seek Him. Don't just watch Christians fail and see. Humble yourself. If you are arrogant or proud you will not find Him. Read His Word and pray He speaks to you. And find Christians, REAL Christians to talk to. :)

Chuck
02-15-2010, 12:58 AM
I would just like to say that i dont understand the Bible the way most of you do and maybe thats why i struggle with it.
it was never my intentions to cause any problems here and because i really dont like to be considered a troll by some on here then i will from here on out refrain from posting in the Christianity section of the forum.

thanks for the input though....i really did learn some things.

No need to stay out of the C section brother! The Bible says (believe it or not :D) in Proverbs that "...as iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another"...

You can't sharpen iron without sparks right? Don't worry about it. Continue to be respectful as you have been, hang around and continue exchanging thoughts and ideas with folks. It's the only way you learn.

I've offered this to you before brother but if you have any questions I'm only a PM away. I'm no expert but I know enough to bluff a guy like you who doesn't know much!!!! :D :D

Seriously though... let me know if I can help.

Tyburn
02-15-2010, 01:28 AM
i believe a lot of whats in the Bible but some of it i dont...i just think its been embellished by the humans that wrote it.

If GOD is clever enough to make the world, do you not think he is clever enough to stop that happening? :huh:

I dont think he would allow anyone to embellish anything. I think that he probably almost possessed the people during the writing...after all, right at the start of Ezekiel, GOD makes the Prophet EAT A SCROLL that he has written himself, so that what GOD has written is literally inside of Ezekiel before he starts writing...I bet the words on the scroll ARE the words that Ezekiel was about to write...this means GOD wrote them first.

I also believe that GOD 100 percent inspired the Councils that decided which of the New Testament books to include and which to exclude.

it comes back to having Faith. I KNOW GOD, and I am begining to see in my own life what he is capable of...He is WELL capable of guiding a few bizzare Bishops, and a handfull of human writters, and he could safeguard a document for billions of years and see to it that it never changes.

The Bible is not like any other book Brad...it is alive, the words themselves are living, because it is a means by which one can make direct contact with GOD...its not just a book, its a supernatural doorway. GOD speaks through that book...its a Holy Object...its possibly the only Symbol that actually has meaning because the name of the Book is the same as the name of GODs son...both are called "The Word" in essence, you cant tell where the Bible Ends and Christ begins. Nothing but a piece of the Divine can be given such a name...The Bible is GODs Word, just like Christ is The Word...most people just dont understand what they have in their bookshelves

I am not a very powerful Christian...I have called myself that for 20 odd years, I believe I have lived off my own faith for about 15 years, but I've only seen true progress in the last year...I mean...REAL progress in terms of more then the one off communique from GOD

It began in June...and its been Constant eversince I was granted the freedom of the city in Chicago...now since I am following the bible through a year course that Play-the-Man gave to me...its been everyday for the last three weeks :blink: I dont mean I pray to him every day....I mean I hear back from him everyday!! :w00t:

I think it first happened when I decided this time last year to accept the doctrine of Intrinsic Value...that is to say, I made an effort to truely believe that I was worth something simply because I was made in his image, I think that allowed me to learn to love myself, and to accept love from others...following that, when he made an obvious contact with me, I suddenly found I could hear him, so then I started listening and hearing him abroad...and now with the bible its even clearer...

one day this week, I rushed him...I almost ran out of time at lunch, so I rushed my bible study...and the rest of the day ran like crap...I am NOT kidding...all because I didnt make time for him...and it was my fault entirely...and I think he was still there, but I couldnt hear him because I had made myself unballenced by my actions and I had to wait then until that evening, when I appologised for treating him wrong...and then I found we could pick up where we left off.

honnestly...I have changed so much in the last three weeks...im becoming...unrecognisable...and I'm becoming WAY to happy :laugh:

surveyorshawn
02-15-2010, 01:51 AM
Awesome Dave!! That's inspiring enough to help me give my own Bible study and prayer time some much-needed umpfff!!!:happydancing::happydancing:

Chuck
02-15-2010, 01:59 AM
Awesome Dave!! That's inspiring enough to help me give my own Bible study and prayer time some much-needed umpfff!!!:happydancing::happydancing:

You mean you read all that????? :D

surveyorshawn
02-15-2010, 02:07 AM
You mean you read all that????? :D

It's a slow night, lol! :laugh::laugh:

Tyburn
02-15-2010, 02:36 AM
:ashamed: well I'm glad you all like it :laugh:

Its funny really because I have had two written Testimonies...but now I think I need two more.

The first was when I realized I was a Christian for the first time by watching what happened with Mother when she broke a little statue she had. It was made of wood, and ironically, as we are on the subject of intrinsic value...it was the carving of a large pair of cupped hands, with the image of a child sitting inside it. She knocked it over and broke several fingers. For some reason that had a deeply profound effect on me. Enough to inspire me to write a two page testimony and share it in church. circa 1990

The Second Testimony was in 1998 a year after the Questioning of what I actually believed upon the death of my Grandfather who had been an extremely powerful Christian, and a known prayer warrior. I suddenly discovered I didnt believe in heaven. It was a tough year, but thanks to my Gran (his wife) and a relaxation tape based on Psalm 130, and the vegetable Garden I started in his name...I came back to faith the following year, and this time it was on my own terms, not those of my parents. I had to develope my own, independant theology

I reckon the third Testimony should probably be about the Moulding process I asked for after my self harm accident in 2003, a set of circumstances link me directly from that point, all the way through my tenure at Saint Paul's to the opening of the Christian Section and my Moderator of that Section and the trials and realizations it brought. I learned that the church is a fallen institution. I learned about forgiveness, I learned what value friendship can hold, I learned about the power of my own mind, I learned about a spirit of fear, I learned about my sexual imorality, I learned about what it is to really be more then a Christian just by name.

I think my Forth Testimony is really the one I just gave you in that last post, that was 2009

Play The Man
02-15-2010, 06:58 AM
It began in June...and its been Constant eversince I was granted the freedom of the city in Chicago...now since I am following the bible through a year course that Play-the-Man gave to me...its been everyday for the last three weeks :blink: I dont mean I pray to him every day....I mean I hear back from him everyday!! :w00t:


:jumping0045:

Mark
02-15-2010, 02:02 PM
You mean you read all that????? :D

He could be the only one.

Tyburn
02-15-2010, 02:37 PM
He could be the only one.

he wasnt. Play the man read it all aswell :tongue0011:

Vizion
02-15-2010, 02:43 PM
:sign0006:












:laugh:

Tyburn
02-15-2010, 02:45 PM
:sign0006:












:laugh:

I wish I cared :tongue0011:

:laugh:

CAVEMAN
02-15-2010, 03:47 PM
Okay, well we have to first clarify exactly what religion is. In essence all religions are manmade institutions that use spiritual principles to influence and guide actions here on Earth. So, if you are just looking for something to give you some semblance of inner peace and harmony with the people around you, then pretty much any religion that is the majority religion of the area you live in will accomplish that; but that has nothing to do with if those religions are true or not.

This is where Christianity breaks from the mold, because Jesus Christ was actually more concerned with our lives after we died, than here on earth. There were sermons about loving others and how to treat people well, but they were almost always punctuated with a warning of hellfire and torment for those who didn't listen. Jesus actually talked about Hell more than He talked about Heaven.

Jesus also warned of how His words would cause disharmony and strife even within families.

So, to say that the purpose of Christianity is to do good works, to help people, and to live in harmony with your fellow man would be inaccurate. The purpose of Christianity is to bring us into repentance and a personal relationship with GOD.

Anyways, back to your point. If these people in your example are just looking to live in harmony with others and only want to be known as good people, then whatever religion they choose will basically accomplish that simple goal. However, they are missing the point. How we behave here on earth is the byproduct of knowing GOD, not a path to GOD. In other words, you have to know GOD first, then the good works and charitable deeds follow afterwards. Religion has it backwards.

As CS Lewis put it, "Religion is man seeking God, Christianity is God seeking man."

If people are truly seeking a relationship with GOD, then no religion on earth is going to fill that need. And they will never find true happiness or inner peace until they get that personal relationship with GOD, no matter what religion they have chosen. This would apply to Christianity as well, since a vast majority of Christians have no personal relationship with GOD and think that they can somehow earn their way into Heaven with enough good works. They're essentially spitting in the face of Christ and telling Him that His sacrifice was not adequate and they can do better.

So, basically, if you only see religion as a form of social conditioning and mass manipulation, then they all essentially have the same goals. However, the hole that people try to fill with religion is too deep for any religion to fill. Only GOD can fill that need within us and He reveals Himself to whoever earnestly seeks Him, no matter what culture, nation or religion they have been raised under.


Good post! AND might I add that if a person truly seeks a relationship with GOD, I believe the Bible clearly teaches that GOD will send someone into that persons life to share the Gospel with them.

Vizion
02-15-2010, 04:03 PM
I wish I cared :tongue0011:

:laugh:So do I :laugh:

Topic-killer :tongue0011:

Tyburn
02-15-2010, 04:40 PM
So do I :laugh:

Topic-killer :tongue0011:

:laugh::laugh: poor thread, cut down in its prime :laugh::laugh:

Jonlion
02-16-2010, 08:15 PM
I would only add that to believe in Jesus as the son of man is a crazy thing to do.

TO follow what the Bible says makes no sense. It is difficult, it causes potential pain, isolation, suffering and struggle.

It is no easy route. And Jesus makes some bizaare claims and Apostles even after seeing his marvellous miracles are racked with doubts.

And in the end, it is where faith comes in. I truely believe Jesus is the son of man and eventually following him will give me eternal glory. I can only be at peace through him. But hey even my actions at times betray my own belief.

However there is ample evidence that NateR stated that show that he was a real person and walked on earth. His miracles and his claims cannot be entirely proven but there was a lot of people willing to die for that belief. There are so many things in the bible that shows its validity.

Whether that be how things are presented that show the truth was spoken or that what the lord says all comes to fruition. eg. the lord said the Gospel would be spread to all nations, he wasn't lying was he!!!!!