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rearnakedchoke
01-29-2010, 06:10 PM
What are your takes on it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata

Tyburn
01-29-2010, 07:29 PM
I believe that it can happen.

I'm not sure if I believe its the epitome of Psycho-Somatism...or if I believe its a gift beyond Human personal attainment.

rejoycing in the mystic tradition, I would like to think it were the latter, but being a social scientist I can understand how it could be the former.

My Gran never had Stigmata...but she had a big passion with Easter...It is very ironic then that she died on Easter Sunday...the Crucifixition...and I say Crucifixtion rather then ressurection here for a reason...is a little under-rated in its power. The reason for that is that we cant identify with the power of the ressurection...we have not yet experienced that. But almost everyone has been touched personally by the death of someone they loved, and sometimes its a cruel and nasty death...and sometimes we are reminded of the fallen and sinful nature of present day creation...and we are aware we are part of it...and we dont feel...worthy...we dont think it is right that someone should love us enough to die in our place...because we understand pain we invisage the suffering...and we feel sad...we wish it had almost never happened because it is a most heartbreaking thought that someone would have to/or be willing to die for you...after all...what makes you so important? who do you think you are? what will you really achieve in your life that makes you a person worth dying for?

...and I dont mean dying like in a sad song...I mean being beaten to death, being stabbed with sharp impliments...forced labour, humiliation infront of everyone...hanging alone for hours suspended in mid air unable to breath...let me tell you that Crucifixition is perhaps one of the worst ways you can possibly die...it takes HOURS, its slow, and its painful...

We can all identify with that kinda horror...but we cant identify so well with a ressurection because we are human, we cant comprehend something like that very well.

Incase you hadnt realized...there are usually two types of Christians...those who dwell on the Incarnation (they dwell on who Christ is, the paradox of GOD and Man) and their are those who dwell on the Ressurection (what Christ did) and part of that...a LARGE part of that is Passion-Tide

Going back to Stigmata...when one is so close to Christ one takes on his likeness one begins to see things differently. They begin to see people differently, they may identify with various vocations, perhaps service, perhaps charity, perhaps praise...perhaps empathy. Perhaps just like they share in his ressurection, they can also identify and almost share in his pain and suffering...You find yourself angry about the things he would have been angry about...you find yourself marvelling at what he would have given thanks for...you find yourself weeping for the lost...you find yourself in deep and traumatic pain at Passion-Tide.

Feel that strong enough...and maybe your mind can make it happen....or maybe GOD will bless you with a fuller revelation...to know something of the physical...its why those radicals in the Orient actually do Crucify themselves (for a very short period of time) around easter...as a means to identifying with and drawing near in faith to GOD

Tyburn
01-29-2010, 07:36 PM
...the power of the Crucifixition alone (prior to the Ressurection) already ruined the Temple...GOD and the holies were exposed BEFORE the Ressurection....The Curtains in the Temple dividing the section that noone but the High Priest once a year could enter...was mystically shredded...and the Ark of The Covernant became visable to anyone.

This piece of Music...so aptly describes that...I love it and feel the need to share it :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz8iRFv9su0

NateR
02-01-2010, 06:01 PM
I don't believe in it at all. Most likely a form of demonic possession.

Tyburn
02-01-2010, 06:16 PM
I don't believe in it at all. Most likely a form of demonic possession.

Why would you say that :huh:

NateR
02-01-2010, 06:45 PM
Why would you say that :huh:

There is no precedent for it in the Old Testament. Only one verse in the New Testament even comes close to mentioning something that might be a stigmata: Galatians 6:17

"From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus."

But considering that Paul had just finished talking about the subject of circumcision, I find it highly unlikely that this is a reference to stigmata. Most likely he was referring to all the scars that he had accumulated from being beaten and whipped while spreading the Gospel.

Tyburn
02-01-2010, 06:55 PM
There is no precedent for it in the Old Testament. Only one verse in the New Testament even comes close to mentioning something that might be a stigmata: Galatians 6:17

"From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus."

But considering that Paul had just finished talking about the subject of circumcision, I find it highly unlikely that this is a reference to stigmata. Most likely he was referring to all the scars that he had accumulated from being beaten and whipped while spreading the Gospel.

But why jump right to demonic possession...Demons are not known to draw attention TO Christ.

Plus...if it were a case of psycho-somatic illness...for want of a better word...that might have nothing to do with Demons.

I dont think some people understand that the Mind is capable of presenting PHYSICAL symptoms without a Physical Illness...for no reason other then the ability of the mind to focus...if you have never suffered from a psycho-somatic ailment, I would understand how you could be sceptical...I myself...think its a long shot that the mind could do...THAT much...but then...I did go through almost a year of pure Hell because of my Mind overpowering my body and producing visable symptoms of an injury that medical science prooved to me had never occured.

They told me they thought that I believed somewhere that because of my foolishness I deserved to have received the injury that could of happened, but never did...so without the injury happening physically...My mind made all the physical symptoms so real other people could SEE it....Now...is it not possible that if someone was THAT focused on the suffering of Christ, their Mind could MAKE it happen?

Without it being a gift or miracle, its the only way I can think of it happening...it would explain why only Christians produce it also...because it is a specific thing that only a Christian could get so focussed on that they were able to live in a completely different state of mind...I mean completely different...

Some of us have GREAT trouble controlling our Minds...I have effectively supressed the areas that are capable of doing just the above, with the focus of fear, for nearly a decade now

NateR
02-01-2010, 07:04 PM
But why jump right to demonic possession...Demons are not known to draw attention TO Christ.

You seem to underestimate the power and intelligence that demons hold. If they can draw people to a fake Christ and make people dependent on ridiculous physical signs like stigmata, then they have effectively killed the spiritual growth of that Christian body.

Even if someone is preaching a Gospel that is 99% truth and only 1% lie, it is still heresy. The results won't be evident right away but can completely destroy that congregation down the road. Just ask any sailor to calculate the direction he needs to go to travel from Europe to New York City by boat. If you take his calculations and throw them off by a single degree, then he would be thousands of miles off course by the time he reaches America.

So, if you can't find Biblical evidence of stigmata, then it is heresy.

Tyburn
02-01-2010, 07:18 PM
You seem to underestimate the power and intelligence that demons hold. If they can draw people to a fake Christ and make people dependent on ridiculous physical signs like stigmata, then they have effectively killed the spiritual growth of that Christian body.

Even if someone is preaching a Gospel that is 99% truth and only 1% lie, it is still heresy. The results won't be evident right away but can completely destroy that congregation down the road. Just ask any sailor to calculate the direction he needs to go to travel from Europe to New York City by boat. If you take his calculations and throw them off by a single degree, then he would be thousands of miles off course by the time he reaches America.

So, if you can't find Biblical evidence of stigmata, then it is heresy.

No I think you missunderstand me. I am not actually saying that Stigmata have anything to do with GOD or Jesus at all.

I dont think its spiritual at all, I dont think its demonic, or Blessed

I think its actually the result of an extremely dangerous and possibly debhilitating Mind Set.

I think you under estimate the Organ you have in your head...do you have ANY idea what power it can have over your body?

Are we not made in GODs image? The Mind of GOD is incomprehensable...I actually think the full workings of the Human Mind are incomprehensable also....I think you always jump right from GOD to Devil when it comes to things like this...I dont think Demons do half as much as you think...I dont think they need to...when we are fallen enough on our own to make most problems entirely ourselves

But I do understand at least the basis of what you are saying...and I think we both aggree...that Stigmata are probably nothing to do with GOD....at best a Human Mind issue...at worst an evil influence :)

NateR
02-02-2010, 02:38 AM
I think you always jump right from GOD to Devil when it comes to things like this...

Matthew 12:30:
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."

Anyone who does not serve GOD, serves Satan. There is no middle ground and there is no fence sitting.

VCURamFan
02-02-2010, 02:39 AM
Matthew 12:30:
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."

Anyone who does not serve GOD, serves Satan. There is no middle ground and there is no fence sitting.

You beat me to it.

Tyburn
02-02-2010, 11:27 AM
Matthew 12:30:
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."

Anyone who does not serve GOD, serves Satan. There is no middle ground and there is no fence sitting.

This si not about serving anyone though, or fullfilling any mission...this could just be about a kind of disease.

Do you believe that Disease is brought about by Sin? or do you believe that Disease can be Demonic Possession? The Bible clearly states that a possibility during several of Jesus conducted exorcisms...however....what about someone born with a disease...?

Are somethings not just the product of a fallen world?

adamt
02-02-2010, 12:43 PM
What are your takes on it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata

oh it is about as believable as flying or esp or walking through walls, makes for a good story though

adamt
02-02-2010, 12:44 PM
or comic book

Miss Foxy
02-02-2010, 03:22 PM
This whole thread scares me.. Yes, I am a chicken... The word Stigmata scares the daylights outta me...:unsure-1:

Tyburn
02-02-2010, 04:37 PM
oh it is about as believable as flying or esp or walking through walls, makes for a good story though

Most form of Extra Sensory Perception can be explained scientifically...or at least science has some rather good theories...Empathy and Telepathy are the most scientific...the Human Body runs on Electricity, which means it gives out electrical signals...if you were able to pick those electrical signals up and be able to interpret them...you'd be doing no more then a satalite does.

Levitation and Telekinesis are harder to explain, or give theories and ive heard everything from mind over matter, to the ability to use dark matter, if you could manipulate an invisable force of matter, technically speaking it would not be a great feat at all, you wouldnt technically be flying, and you would technically be extending yourself to whatever it is you were moving.

Astral Projections...are real, and have been tried out with limited success so it is claimed by various militaries, Teleportation...well...I wont go into that one :laugh:

again...if I were to be convinced any of the above existed, I would still say that it points to science and not to demonic forces.

Astrology and Mediumships are also true, the Bible gives examples of both, the latter was when some guy tried to sumon up a dead Christian (who wasnt too pleased to be disturbed) the former...well just what do you think the Magi that visited the Christ were? The Stars had fortold the birth of a Great King...and they followed patterns of the heavens for years to get to see Jesus...they also brought Gifts that reflected events of his future life.

9 out of 10 who claim to have powers are frauds, and we are banned from consulting or doing something like that unless it is direct revelation from GOD as in the case of the gift of Prophetic Ministry...I would say that those who are not frauds in this area ARE in consultation with demonic forces.