PDA

View Full Version : What version of the Bible do you prefer ?


cheachea
01-16-2010, 03:34 PM
I like the New King James Version. I got to say though, I just plain don't trust the NIV bible.
Now I'm not a KJV only guy, but alot of these other versions take away some of the proof texts for the diety of Jesus Christ and it really bugs me. My biggest problem with the NIV is this :

Isaiah 14 (New International Version) 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

This is the same verse from KJV : 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



We all know that Jesus is the Morning Star from Revelation Chp 22 verse 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


So there you have it, the NIV calls Lucifer(the devil/satan) the Morning Star. That is just plain evil.

Spiritwalker
01-16-2010, 03:53 PM
I dont' know that I find it "evil" to use the term.. but I wondered the same thing in the past...

Here is what I found that makes sense to me. But also brings to question the various translations of the Bible. Which is something I continually ponder from time to time.. And also makes me feel more confident in my personal belifes.


Pentecostal Bible College - bright morning star
Expert: Pastor David Vivas - 8/31/2006

Question
in isaiah 14:12 lucifer is refered to in hebrew as the morning star. in revelation Christ is refered to in the greek as bright morning star. my faith tells me that they are not the same, but can u explain the difference to me so that I can witness to non believers. may God richly bless you in all your needs.......

Answer
Indeed, Jesus Christ is the Bright & Morning Star.

I understand that the name "Lucifer" was added into the Bible and not in the original Hebrews.

Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language?

A scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati answered the question about Lucifer and the origin of this name. What Hebrew name was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The scholar replies, "In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name 'Lucifer'."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

For more information on this subject, order the book "Noah's Flood, Joshua's Long Day & Lucifer's Fall - What Really Happened?" by Ralph Woodrow.

http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/noah.html

I trust this helps...

cheachea
01-16-2010, 04:35 PM
Ok, lets read more of Isaiah Chp 14

The Fall of Lucifer
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[b] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Jesus siad he saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven (Luke Chp.10:18)
We all know who Isaiah is really talking about .

NateR
01-16-2010, 06:08 PM
I dont' know that I find it "evil" to use the term.. but I wondered the same thing in the past...

Here is what I found that makes sense to me. But also brings to question the various translations of the Bible. Which is something I continually ponder from time to time.. And also makes me feel more confident in my personal belifes.

I hope you are not trying to imply that this is "proof" that Satan doesn't really exist. Most Bible scholars know that the name Lucifer is a transliteration, not a true translation. Other transliterated names in the Bible include:

Jesus - this is a transliteration of the Latin word Iesus, which is a transliteration of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), which is a translation of the Hebrew name Yeshua (modern day Joshua), meaning "GOD saves" or "salvation."

Christ - is a tranliteration of the Greek Χριστός (Christós) which is a translation of the Hebrew word Mashiach, meaning "anointed" (in the Old Testament, mashiach is translated as "king" or, with the definitive article Ha - as in HaMashiach - it's transliterated as "the Messiah").

So, a more correct literary rendering of Jesus Christ's name should be either "Yeshua HaMashiach" or "Joshua, The Messiah". However, if we were to translate it literally, Jesus' name would be "GOD saves the anointed."

Church - is a transliteration of the Old English cirice, which comes from the Germanic kirika, which comes from the Greek word κυριακή kuriakē, meaning "of the Lord." This is probably a shortened version of the Greek ἐκκλησία κυριακή ekklēsia kuriakē ("congregation of the Lord"), since the original Greek word, that is translated as "church" is ekklesia, meaning assembly or congregation. The same word used to describe the nation of Israel in the Old Testament.

The word Church is also possibly a shortening of the Greek κυριακὴ οἰκία kuriakē oikia ("house of the Lord"). This would make sense because of the fact that, in Hebrew, the word for synagogue/temple and the word for house/home are based off the same root word. So the understanding would be that a Church is where GOD lives.

Unfortunately, the inconsistent translation of "congregation/assembly" in English Bibles creates an invisible, linguistic wall of separation between Christians and Jews. Something that was NEVER intended to exist at all.

Jehovah - This is a hybrid version of GOD's Name with no historical foundation prior to English language translations. GOD's Name is never spoken in the Bible and is usually only written as Elohim (GOD) or Adonai (LORD). However, His true Name is not recorded (and possibly has never been written down). We only know His Name by His initials Y.H.W.H, or J.H.V.H. in Latin. If take the Latin version and combine it with the vowel sounds for Adonai, then you get Jehovah.

So, the transliteration of the name "Lucifer" does not disprove Satan's existence.

Anyhoo, I mostly read a New King James translation. Not because I believe it to be the most accurate translation, but just because I'm used to it. I compare it frequently with other Christian and Jewish translations of the Bible because no translation is perfect.

So, this begs the question; Is it possible to learn everything there is to know about GOD's Word without learning Hebrew and spending your entire life studying the Bible?

The answer would be an emphatic "NO." By limiting ourselves to English translations, we are only capable of understanding maybe 25% of GOD's Word, at the most.

Another question would be, is the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, etc. translation of the Bible divinely inspired? That would be a firm "NO" as well. You can not apply the term "divinely inspired" to any English translation of the Bible. The same would apply to Latin translations of the Bible and Greek translations of the Old Testament. In order to read the true divinely inspired Word of GOD, then you need to read the original Hebrew and Aramaic (for the Old Testament) and the original Greek (for the New Testament).

Of course, not everyone can learn Hebrew or devote the time necessary to truly study the Bible. So, recognition of our own ignorance is the first step in any Bible study, as is the understanding that we will NEVER be able to fully comprehend GOD's Word without His help. This is why humility is the key to knowledge and you need to start every Bible reading/study with prayer.

Chris F
01-16-2010, 06:54 PM
In one of these threads I posted some side by side comparisons so that might be a good read if you could find it.

I prefer the NASB because it is the most accurately close to the original Greek and Hebrew. Its downfall is that it used the Alexandrian text and has some issues. However these issues are easily resolved in the footnotes of every good bible.

The KJV used the best Greek text but it took to many liberties with the Greek and often missed translated some key verses. These to will be resolved by any good footnote.

Avoid paraphrases like The Message and Amplfied. Neither are correct in their dealing with the Greek and Hebrew and are man's peronal prefrences

warriorlion
01-17-2010, 01:04 AM
definately would say that you need to be careful with the KJV, there are a ton of things in it that have liberties taken, the NKJV is supposedly better. But Nate will tell you that no one english translation is gonna have it all right, since the orginal writings have a bunch of numerical meanings as well as the vinguistic meaning.

I am using the ESV these days alongside cross referencing using biblegateway.com ( which has a lot of versions for comparison) I like the ESV because it is fundermentally translated by Christian people unlike the KJV (I believe that the ESV also has a number of messianic jews translate it also.)

Spiritwalker
01-17-2010, 02:04 PM
I hope you are not trying to imply that this is "proof" that Satan doesn't really exist. Most Bible scholars know that the name Lucifer is a transliteration, not a true translation. Other transliterated names in the Bible include:

Where did you get that? I wouldn't have even implied that "****ian" or any other names referring to Satan... means he didn't/doesn't exist


So, this begs the question; Is it possible to learn everything there is to know about GOD's Word without learning Hebrew and spending your entire life studying the Bible?

For the first time in over 20 years!!!! Someone asks the same question that I have pondered for a large portion of my adult life.

And I thought I was just splitting hairs.. or at least had come to believe that with all the push back I get when I bring up subjects like that.

I think it would be very cool to have a serious discussion with you on a wide variety of topics Nate...


The answer would be an emphatic "NO." By limiting ourselves to English translations, we are only capable of understanding maybe 25% of GOD's Word, at the most.

Agreed.

Another question would be, is the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, etc. translation of the Bible divinely inspired? That would be a firm "NO" as well. You can not apply the term "divinely inspired" to any English translation of the Bible. The same would apply to Latin translations of the Bible and Greek translations of the Old Testament. In order to read the true divinely inspired Word of GOD, then you need to read the original Hebrew and Aramaic (for the Old Testament) and the original Greek (for the New Testament).

Of course, not everyone can learn Hebrew or devote the time necessary to truly study the Bible. So, recognition of our own ignorance is the first step in any Bible study, as is the understanding that we will NEVER be able to fully comprehend GOD's Word without His help. This is why humility is the key to knowledge and you need to start every Bible reading/study with prayer.


See I would like to be able to view books omitted from the bible...

I wonder what all of the commandments actually were... things of that nature..

I wonder what God thinks of our current translations.. of the translations of the translations... translations on top of translations.... just one of those things I work on from time to time.

cubsfan47
01-17-2010, 02:49 PM
For New Testament study I always keep a copy of A Precise Parallel New Testament handy, Not only does it permit you to compare English translations but it includes the original Greek so for those who know Greek it would be an invaluable aid.

I don't know Greek. I do know Latin. That may be a level of difficulty less than Greek, and certainly less than Hebrew or Aramaic, but it still isn't easy. So I can sympathize with those who struggle with translation work.

Here's a real problem for English translations as I see it: English is organic; it is still evolving and being extended as a language. The original scriptural texts are not. What we today understand about a given English paragraph will be slightly different in 50 years and perhaps very different in 100 years. So to communicate the meaning of scripture it will be necessary to periodically produce new English translations that communicate inEnglish as it is understood at the time.

As English is modified as a result of globalization, this problem will get worse.

So for now I don't rely on just one translation. When I read the Word I ask for His guidance, and I talk to other believers.

I sure have enjoyed being able to read Cesar in his own language; makes me wish I could learn Greek.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 02:54 PM
I like the New King James Version. I got to say though, I just plain don't trust the NIV bible.
Now I'm not a KJV only guy, but alot of these other versions take away some of the proof texts for the diety of Jesus Christ and it really bugs me. My biggest problem with the NIV is this :

Isaiah 14 (New International Version) 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

This is the same verse from KJV : 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



We all know that Jesus is the Morning Star from Revelation Chp 22 verse 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


So there you have it, the NIV calls Lucifer(the devil/satan) the Morning Star. That is just plain evil.


Well I have heard Lucifer refered to a a Bright Star before. You have to remember who he was before the Fall. He was like Saint Michael is now, the Highest form of Created Order, the best and most beautiful of GOD creation.

Never forget that he is also infered to a false LIGHT...he looks, sounds, even acts like Light, that is precisely how he manages to lie and misguide people who are not paying due cause and attention.

I have heard him refered to as precious Jewels also...in one passage, I dont remember where, GOD begins by giving a put down I think to the King of Tyre...but then it becomes clear he is talking about how far Lucifer has fallen...I wish I could remember the bible verse...its obscure...but its in their.

Spiritwalker
01-17-2010, 03:10 PM
In the movie Constatine.. he was referred to as "The Little Horn".....

I found that so interesting I had to look around to see if it was real....


http://www.markbeast.com/satan/names-of-satan.htm

Names of Satan

The Bible calls Satan by many different names. Each name has a slightly different meaning. The many other names for Satan give a fuller picture of who Satan is and what he does. There are more names for Satan in the Bible than for anyone else except Jesus Christ.
Abaddon

Hebrew name for Satan meaning “Destruction”. “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Accuser

“Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ‘Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.’” Revelation 12:10
Adversary

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 1 Peter 5:8
Angel of light

“And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14
Angel of the bottomless pit

“And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Anointed covering cherub

"You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." Ezekiel 28:14
Antichrist

“And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” 1 John 4:3
Apollyon

Greek name for Satan meaning “Destroyer”. “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Beast

“9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, ‘If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.’” Revelation 14:9,10 Who is the beast?
Beelzebub

“Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, ‘This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.’” Matthew 12:24
Belial

“And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?” 2 Corinthians 6:15
Deceiver

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9
Devil

“He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8
Dragon

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9
Enemy

“The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.” Matthew 13:39
Evil one

“I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.” John 17:15
Father of lies

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” John 8:44
God of this age

“Whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.” 2 Corinthians 4:4
King of Babylon

“That you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: ‘How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased!’” Isaiah 14:4
King of the bottomless pit

“And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
King of Tyre

"Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.”’” Ezekiel 28:12
Lawless one

“8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
Leviathan

“In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.” Isaiah 27:1
Liar

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” John 8:44
Little horn

“ 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.” Daniel 8:9-11
Lucifer

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14
Man of sin

“3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4
Murderer

“44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” John 8:44
Power of darkness

“13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.” Colossians 1:13, 14
Prince of the power of the air

“1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:1,2
Roaring lion

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 1 Peter 5:8
Rulers of the darkness

“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Ephesians 6:12
Ruler of demons

“But some of them said, ‘He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.’” Luke 11:15
Ruler of this world

“31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” John 12:31,32
Satan

“And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him.” Mark 1:13
Serpent of old

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9
Son of perdition

“3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4
Star

“Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.” Revelation 9:1
Tempter

“Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, ‘If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.’” Matthew 4:3
Thief

“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” John 10:10
Wicked one

“Above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.” Ephesians 6:16

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 03:12 PM
May I ask. Why are you so interested in Lucifer :huh:

Spiritwalker
01-17-2010, 03:21 PM
May I ask. Why are you so interested in Lucifer :huh:

Who me?

A better question would be.. "Why aren't you?"... You talk as ifyou are a much better religious person than I am.. You have a releationship with God.. at least it appears.. So Why aren't you interested in God's choosen Adversary?

Well..for me... it's pretty simple....

There are billions or people on the earth...and out of those billions.. there are millions of religions.. with "God, Budda, Allaha and so forth...

I would hate to know how many versions there are of the Bible.. or the Koran.. and many other religious text....

But in most other popular religions.. no matter who they are.. what flavor of religion.. EVERYONE on the planet (with some VERY minor expections.. prolly less than 10 million people).... knows two names...

Jesus and "the devil"

I find that interesting. Religion is (among other things) interesting.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 03:25 PM
But in most other popular religions..

knows two names...

Jesus and "the devil"

I find that interesting.

Lovely, tell me about the Former :)

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 03:30 PM
I FOUND IT!! its in Ezekiel

notice...the rant begins as a dressing down of the King ot Tyre...but then half way through the rant..."you were in Eden.." No...the King of Tyre was never in Eden...GOD is talking about Lucifer at this point! I've highlighted it in blue :)

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [a] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [b] turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 03:35 PM
It plain to see that GOD is comparing the King of Tyre with Lucifer. Both created in splendor and perfect, both tarnished by pride, both come to a sticky end.

The main give away is that Tyre isnt a Cherub, (A cherub is a classification of Angelic Host) and Tyre was never in Eden. :)

NateR
01-17-2010, 04:35 PM
See I would like to be able to view books omitted from the bible...

I wonder what all of the commandments actually were... things of that nature..

I wonder what God thinks of our current translations.. of the translations of the translations... translations on top of translations.... just one of those things I work on from time to time.

Most of the books omitted from the Bible were done so for reasons of historical accuracy. You can buy an Apocrypha at most books stores, which contains all the books omitted from the Old Testament.

The Hebrew Bible (our Old Testament) has been meticulously preserved over the centuries. The Jewish Scribes would copy the scrolls letter-for-letter and if even one letter was wrong or misplaced, or if the ink bled too much and two letters touched each other, then the entire scroll would have to be discarded and they would start over. This almost extreme commitment to accuracy is why manuscripts from over 1000 years ago are virtually identical to manuscripts today. No other document has been so well preserved, making the Bible the most perfectly preserved text in all of human history.

GOD is able to work through ignorance, so that means He is able to speak through translations. As long as we approach him in humility then He will speak to us.

NateR
01-17-2010, 04:38 PM
It plain to see that GOD is comparing the King of Tyre with Lucifer. Both created in splendor and perfect, both tarnished by pride, both come to a sticky end.

The main give away is that Tyre isnt a Cherub, (A cherub is a classification of Angelic Host) and Tyre was never in Eden. :)

The Bible often mentions world leaders as illustrations of Satan. So any mentions of earthly kings and princes would almost always be a reference to BOTH a contemporary world leader and Satan himself.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 05:21 PM
Most of the books omitted from the Bible were done so for reasons of historical accuracy. You can buy an Apocrypha at most books stores, which contains all the books omitted from the Old Testament.
.

Yes...but finding the Early Church documents, the vast majority of which are not any more ancient then the books included in the New Testament are..well there is hundreds of them...I wonder if there is a compendium of them or not.

The Apokrapha you can argue actually is ommited scripture because it was the Jews who changed their minds wasnt it after a reformation of some kind...but the vast majority of the apokraphal books which are written Christian, and not Jewish, were never even considered Scriptures...they are...some of them, absolutely fascinating

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 05:26 PM
The Bible often mentions world leaders as illustrations of Satan. So any mentions of earthly kings and princes would almost always be a reference to BOTH a contemporary world leader and Satan himself.

Its still an interesting comparison...because in relation to some of the issues raised about Lucifer in this thread...one has to remember how this illustration begins.

'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

It comes back to people thinking it must be some sort of mistake that Lucifer can possibly be refered to as anything but Evil and bad...and whilst im not denying his nature...I would deny the way some people assume he works. Why would he not be refered to in a context before the fall as "a morning star" WHO exactly do some people thing Lucifer is/was

These are usually the same people who see Evil as opposite to Good...or the Devil as opposite to GOD...but thats not true. GOD isnt a Created Being...the Devil is a Created being...he might have been the biggest and most powerful created being...but never the less...a created being can not be said to be GODs opposite...because that implies the Devil is as powerfully bad, as GOD is powerfully good. Which is another falseity

cheachea
01-17-2010, 05:30 PM
I FOUND IT!! its in Ezekiel

notice...the rant begins as a dressing down of the King ot Tyre...but then half way through the rant..."you were in Eden.." No...the King of Tyre was never in Eden...GOD is talking about Lucifer at this point! I've highlighted it in blue :)

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [a] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [b] turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "



Man ,isn't it Awesome that we have God's Word and that He has revealed truth to us. It's exiting to find things like this in the Bible.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 05:35 PM
Man ,isn't it Awesome that we have God's Word and that He has revealed truth to us. It's exiting to find things like this in the Bible.

Yes! it is!! Someone in Saint Paul's showed me it...and I rememberd it when I re-found it after an indepth study of Ezekiel last year...but I am rubbish at remembering the exact location of things


...and I discovered I couldnt remember what book it was in :sad: and it annoyed me not knowing...because I remember its a beautiful passage...I love it when GOD lamments because its so...lovely...he doesnt say the words in anger...he's saying them in saddness...that changes it...because you can imagine in his minds-eye, rather then being wrathful and squashing Lucifer...he is almost crying, imagining, how beautiful his creation of Lucifer was...and how Satan threw it all away...

The ONLY thing I could remember was the word "Tyre" so I typed in King of Tyre and cross referenced it...it comes up ALOT in scripture from Kings...all the way through Samuel...and finally I found the right one :laugh:

NateR
01-17-2010, 09:25 PM
Someone just brought it to my attention that I never actually answered the original question of "What version of the Bible do you prefer?"

As you can probably guess, I prefer the Old Testament in its original Hebrew language and I prefer the New Testament in its original Greek language.

That's not saying that I can actually read those versions, but those are the ones that I prefer. :)

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 09:45 PM
Someone just brought it to my attention that I never actually answered the original question of "What version of the Bible do you prefer?"

As you can probably guess, I prefer the Old Testament in its original Hebrew language and I prefer the New Testament in its original Greek language.

That's not saying that I can actually read those versions, but those are the ones that I prefer. :)

Your awesome :laugh:

Spiritwalker
01-17-2010, 11:51 PM
Most of the books omitted from the Bible were done so for reasons of historical accuracy. You can buy an Apocrypha at most books stores, which contains all the books omitted from the Old Testament.

Cool.. that's one that I didn't know of... thanks!

But how do you leave a Gods word out of the Bible for historical accuracy? Not that I disagree with you.. just that has been a part for my issues with organized religion for years.


The Hebrew Bible (our Old Testament) has been meticulously preserved over the centuries. The Jewish Scribes would copy the scrolls letter-for-letter and if even one letter was wrong or misplaced, or if the ink bled too much and two letters touched each other, then the entire scroll would have to be discarded and they would start over. This almost extreme commitment to accuracy is why manuscripts from over 1000 years ago are virtually identical to manuscripts today. No other document has been so well preserved, making the Bible the most perfectly preserved text in all of human history.

Agreed.... read many books and I love watching History International .. but when "religious authorities" back in the day... decided what should be "left out".. I don't know that we can trust what was "put in"..

GOD is able to work through ignorance, so that means He is able to speak through translations. As long as we approach him in humility then He will speak to us.

VERY WELL SAID sir.....:applause:

Spiritwalker
01-17-2010, 11:54 PM
Someone just brought it to my attention that I never actually answered the original question of "What version of the Bible do you prefer?"

As you can probably guess, I prefer the Old Testament in its original Hebrew language and I prefer the New Testament in its original Greek language.



please add to this comment I am about to post... ALL THE DRIPPING SARCASM possible.... in a good natured poking way....

realllllllly???????:)

Spiritwalker
01-18-2010, 04:15 AM
Lovely, tell me about the Former :)

Jesus .. At the VERY least... was a person of exceptional moral standing.

If you leave out.. water to wine, walking on water, rising from the dead...

He was the very best of humanity. Someone that a person of ANY religion should aspire to be like.

The largest part.. and the part I choose to follow was one simple message to each other...

Love each other.. be kind... things of this nature..
Jesus, if he were alive today.. would be a tree hugger hippe.. Trying to calm and bring enlightenment to a world that truly needs it...

There are several books I always recommend to people...

On A Pale Horse and For the Love of Evil by Peirs Anthony
Dead Poets Society ( I forget the author.. but the movie was great and gets the point across also)

Henry Rollins.. said one time..in describing his trip to the Holy Land...

While walking the Stations of the Cross.. He was totally put off by being there.. and what he said was just perfect for me..

As for me resolving Jesus as the Son of God.. it's hard for me to truly believe that sometimes... Like people living for 100s of years... sometimes I have serious doubts.. and that's part of my break from organized religion...

Is there a God??? I truly believe that there is.. but I don't think that "we" have it right.. in regards to what He wants of us...

And if you believe that there is a God.. you should be able to believe in His opposite.

NateR
01-18-2010, 04:39 AM
Jesus .. At the VERY least... was a person of exceptional moral standing.

This is actually not a possibility. If you read what Jesus actually said, then there is only one of three options:

1. He was GOD - because He claimed to be GOD and He claimed to be able to forgive sins.

2. He was a liar - everything Jesus said was a deliberate deception in order to gain followers and power on earth. Definitely not an ideal that religious people should aspire to.

3. He was a lunatic - Jesus wasn't GOD, he just thought that he was GOD. This would make him a crazy man who is definitely not deserving of the description "exceptional moral standing."

Logically, those are your only options. Saying that Jesus was a good man, but not GOD is a direct rejection of the evidence.

Tyburn
01-18-2010, 10:35 AM
1) Jesus .. At the VERY least... was a person of exceptional moral standing.

2)Jesus, if he were alive today.. would be a tree hugger hippe.. Trying to calm and bring enlightenment to a world that truly needs it...

3) As for me resolving Jesus as the Son of God.. it's hard for me to truly believe that sometimes... Like people living for 100s of years... sometimes I have serious doubts.. and that's part of my break from organized religion...

3) Is there a God??? I truly believe that there is.. but I don't think that "we" have it right.. in regards to what He wants of us...

4) And if you believe that there is a God.. you should be able to believe in His opposite.

1) No Jesus at the very least is GOD :)

2) No, Jesus would be a King, sitting in the Throne Room of a Gigantic Temple. He would infact sit upon the Ark of the Covernant, in the Holy of Holies...for that is where the Ancients believed him to be...above the centre of the Ark...I imagine it would double as a kinda chair in which he'd sit. He would rule dogmatically also. He wouldnt be tollerant of sin

And Jesus IS alive today :) He sits on the Right of His Father in the Throne Room of the Heavenly Jerusalem

3) People only lived for Hundreds of years before the Flood. The Flood is Historical, its mentioned in the King list of the Sumerians, Its mentioned in the History of Mesopotamia, its mentioned in The Scriptures of Christianity, and also I believe in the Hindu Tradition to. Its mentioned in reallly ancient Egypt. That alone means the flood was from the Meditaranian all the way across India. In ALL those cultures, they also talk about their rullers from before that time living for a very long time. In all of the writings, these long years end with the people who imerge from after the flood.

If that is not enough, then try looking at what lies in the Waters off the west coast of Northern India...full Cities, that date back to aprox 10,000 BC, which would be right at the end of the last ice age, AND right where all cultures speak of a very powerful race of people...which until recently, no historian or scholar has taken seriously.

Now there seems to be a lot of factual, and scientific evidence to suggest that the Bible, as with all the ancient cultures, are infact telling the truth. There was an Ancient and powerful civilization that was obliterated by some kind of Flood.

3) No what you mean is, you dont think that anyone else has it right. I'm sure you have your views and are certain on them. The problem with all of this is that what you have is nothing more then an opinion...and everyone has an opinion...what you need is something absolute, and higher then your own personal thoughts on the issue.

You either Believe Jesus or you Do Not...because what he said means he was either a really good person...or a really horrible person. If you dont believe he is good, you shouldnt be pulling parts of his theology to use...like you do with the Golden Rule...which...incidently, doest tell you right from wrong.

4) GOD doesnt have an opposite. If he did...there would be TWO gods wouldnt there...one GOD who is good, one who is Bad. Lucifer, Satan...whatever you want to call him...is NOT a god. One of the pre-requisits for being GOD is that you are beggoton and not Created. Lucifer was Created...therefore he is not Equal to GOD because he was Created by GOD...Secondly, you have to be all knowing, and omnipotent. Lucifer, is a created Being. He can only be in one single place at one single time...and he can be delayed. We know this, because we know the limitations put on Heavenly Hosts. They are only able to be in one place at one time...and it can take them a period of time to get from one place to the other.

The Opposite to GOD is NO GOD...its an absence. Think about it. You have to have something that produces Light...but what object produces Darkness? Nothing...Nothing makes Darkness...its simply the absence of something that produces Light.

I thought you might have put some intelligent thought into this subject :mellow:

Spiritwalker
01-18-2010, 04:03 PM
I thought you might have put some intelligent thought into this subject :mellow:


And I thought you might pay attention.

Tyburn
01-18-2010, 04:14 PM
And I thought you might pay attention.

I always pay attention :laugh:

Spiritwalker
01-18-2010, 04:22 PM
This is actually not a possibility. If you read what Jesus actually said, then there is only one of three options:

1. He was GOD - because He claimed to be GOD and He claimed to be able to forgive sins.

2. He was a liar - everything Jesus said was a deliberate deception in order to gain followers and power on earth. Definitely not an ideal that religious people should aspire to.

3. He was a lunatic - Jesus wasn't GOD, he just thought that he was GOD. This would make him a crazy man who is definitely not deserving of the description "exceptional moral standing."

Logically, those are your only options. Saying that Jesus was a good man, but not GOD is a direct rejection of the evidence.

Correct.

Now you see the krux of my problem.

Option 1. That is a hard one to wrap my head around. Given my personal history and other issues.

Option 2. If that is true, was that lie a good thing considering what was done with it?

Option 3. Even a lunatic can have good and moral ends.

Becuase of my past.. it is very difficult to have faith in people... and due to my way of thinking, much else afterwards..

Think about a pyramid. The top stone is God. That's where you are trying to go... but the foundation of the pyramid is made of hay... straw.. whatever.. I as an adult have to rebuild the foundation on my own.

Tyburn
01-18-2010, 04:29 PM
Correct.

Now you see the krux of my problem.

Option 1. That is a hard one to wrap my head around. Given my personal history and other issues.

Option 2. If that is true, was that lie a good thing considering what was done with it?

Option 3. Even a lunatic can have good and moral ends.

1) What and who GOD is doesnt have anything to do with your personal history or issues. Thats precisely why Morality and the likes has to be based on something that isnt at the whim of a personal history or something.

What you mean is...your personal History and other issues...stop you seeing the truth.

2) No. the ends dont always justify the means. you cant say it was good because it was a lovely lie even if not true...WTF is the point in lying in the first place...if its not true...its not true, lies might make one feel better for a while..but they cant change truth.

3) No alot about clinical madness do we :huh::laugh:

Spiritwalker
01-18-2010, 04:32 PM
I always pay attention :laugh:

No, you don't. Or at least only to things within your own comfort zone.

Tyburn
01-18-2010, 04:36 PM
No, you don't. Or at least only to things within your own comfort zone.

I doubt you even know what my "comfort zone" is. I pay great attention...though more so to people I like then people I dont, I will admit :)

NateR
01-18-2010, 05:36 PM
Becuase of my past.. it is very difficult to have faith in people...

Well, then you are on the right path, because GOD doesn't want you to put your faith in any person, church, or religion, He wants you to put your faith in Him. People will let you down, GOD never will.

My recommendation would be that you ask GOD Himself for understanding.

Llamafighter
01-18-2010, 05:43 PM
Well, then you are on the right path, because GOD doesn't want you to put your faith in any person, church, or religion, He wants you to put your faith in Him. People will let you down, GOD never will.

My recommendation would be that you ask GOD Himself for understanding.

Well said!

Tyburn
01-18-2010, 05:50 PM
GOD doesn't want you to put your faith in church, .

Certainly not...that was a big mistake of mine a few years ago :sad: