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Vizion
01-13-2010, 10:19 PM
God makes the weather, and according to the BIBLE He also punishes the Wicked WITH the weather at times. Haiti is a pretty bad place with voodoo and all of that demonic influence there.

What do you all think (scripture verses preferred to opinions/feelings if you are CITING God please).

logrus
01-13-2010, 10:28 PM
God makes the weather, and according to the BIBLE He also punishes the Wicked WITH the weather at times. Haiti is a pretty bad place with voodoo and all of that demonic influence there.

What do you all think (scripture verses preferred to opinions/feelings if you are CITING God please).
Maybe its an attempt from God to bring everybody together.

Chuck
01-13-2010, 10:32 PM
God makes the weather, and according to the BIBLE He also punishes the Wicked WITH the weather at times. Haiti is a pretty bad place with voodoo and all of that demonic influence there.

What do you all think (scripture verses preferred to opinions/feelings if you are CITING God please).

You won't find a scripture about God, the weather and Haiti in the Bible so if you remove opinions from your threads... it might be a pretty short discussion.

Jonlion
01-13-2010, 10:35 PM
You won't find a scripture about God, the weather and Haiti in the Bible so if you remove opinions from your threads... it might be a pretty short discussion.


:applause::applause::applause:

Well said!

J.B.
01-13-2010, 10:43 PM
I think the only thing that can really be said is that obviously it was God's will.

County Mike
01-13-2010, 11:10 PM
God makes the weather, and according to the BIBLE He also punishes the Wicked WITH the weather at times. Haiti is a pretty bad place with voodoo and all of that demonic influence there.

What do you all think (scripture verses preferred to opinions/feelings if you are CITING God please).

I had a similar thought myself. When a place becomes so overridden with crime that nowhere at all is safe, the only option is a clean sweep. I do understand that some innocent children, etc. will be victims but some areas are really THAT bad.

Christians were persecuted in southern Asia, another crime-ridden area. They got hit by a Tsunami.
Crime ran rampant in New Orleans - Hurricane Katrina.
I'm sure there are many more examples and now Haiti.

It at least makes you think.

Miss Foxy
01-13-2010, 11:13 PM
I don't think every person in Haiti practices voodoo. That's just plain ignorant IMHO...

Tyburn
01-13-2010, 11:22 PM
God makes the weather, and according to the BIBLE He also punishes the Wicked WITH the weather at times. Haiti is a pretty bad place with voodoo and all of that demonic influence there.

What do you all think (scripture verses preferred to opinions/feelings if you are CITING God please).

Well...there are a few interesting things...most noticeably the collapse of the Palace from where I believe the President, or Leader of the Nation lives...the other interesting thing is that on the other side of the Island...virtually no damage in the Dominican Republic...also interesting that the main target has appeared to be the Capital City.

However...I think that Natural Disastors are just part of the decay that comes with living in a fallen world...I think if it were Judgement, then you would have had some decree being issued to the City and the Nation...and that hasnt happened, for me, loud enough to mean this is Judgement...you know it would usually be a Prophet of large Standing, to directly come and and warn the city they must repent or suffer the consequences...if some big Christian did that, like some Huge Evangalist or something, then I would be more inclined to think it was Judgement of some kind.

So...in truth, No I dont think so. I think it was no more a judgement then the Tsunami was on the twelve odd countries it effected...but then I dont believe 9/11 was an act of Judgement either, and ive heard a lot of people say that in some way, both American and non American...I just dont think thats a strategy that is actively employed anymore.

Neezar
01-13-2010, 11:36 PM
Well...there are a few interesting things...most noticeably the collapse of the Palace from where I believe the President, or Leader of the Nation lives...the other interesting thing is that on the other side of the Island...virtually no damage in the Dominican Republic...also interesting that the main target has appeared to be the Capital City.

However...I think that Natural Disastors are just part of the decay that comes with living in a fallen world...I think if it were Judgement, then you would have had some decree being issued to the City and the Nation...and that hasnt happened, for me, loud enough to mean this is Judgement...you know it would usually be a Prophet of large Standing, to directly come and and warn the city they must repent or suffer the consequences...if some big Christian did that, like some Huge Evangalist or something, then I would be more inclined to think it was Judgement of some kind.

So...in truth, No I dont think so. I think it was no more a judgement then the Tsunami was on the twelve odd countries it effected...but then I dont believe 9/11 was an act of Judgement either, and ive heard a lot of people say that in some way, both American and non American...I just dont think thats a strategy that is actively employed anymore.

I'm not sure 9/11 would be considered a natural disaster, Dave. :rolleyes:

Tyburn
01-13-2010, 11:37 PM
I'm not sure 9/11 would be considered a natural disaster, Dave. :rolleyes:

No...but a disastor non the less...and something on the scale of a natural disastor in turms of damage, loss of life AND the ability to put it down to some cause and effect relationship with GODs Wrath :rolleyes:

Neezar
01-13-2010, 11:43 PM
No...but a disastor non the less...and something on the scale of a natural disastor in turms of damage, loss of life AND the ability to put it down to some cause and effect relationship with GODs Wrath :rolleyes:

Clearly not in the same category as hurricanes, tsunamis and such. You are insulting their loss by even comparing....


http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/neezar086/funnies/usostupid.jpg

And I mean that in a loving way. :laugh:

Tyburn
01-13-2010, 11:47 PM
Clearly not in the same category as hurricanes, tsunamis and such. You are insulting their loss by even comparing....


http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/neezar086/funnies/usostupid.jpg

And I mean that in a loving way. :laugh:

Care to actually contribute on what YOU think on the thread matter, or are we going to enter another phase of follow-dave-around-the-board-and-pick-mindless-stupid-dumbass-bones-just-to-be-an-irritant :huh:

Miss Foxy
01-13-2010, 11:50 PM
Care to actually contribute on what YOU think on the thread matter, or are we going to enter another phase of follow-dave-around-the-board-and-pick-mindless-stupid-dumbass-bones-just-to-be-an-irritant :huh:

Dave she said she meant it in a loving way.. Have you taken your pills today? I feel mood swings.....:unsure-1:

Neezar
01-13-2010, 11:58 PM
Care to actually contribute on what YOU think on the thread matter, or are we going to enter another phase of follow-dave-around-the-board-and-pick-mindless-stupid-dumbass-bones-just-to-be-an-irritant :huh:

No.

Bonnie
01-14-2010, 12:16 AM
So...in truth, No I dont think so. I think it was no more a judgement then the Tsunami was on the twelve odd countries it effected...but then I dont believe 9/11 was an act of Judgement either, and ive heard a lot of people say that in some way, both American and non American...I just dont think thats a strategy that is actively employed anymore.

Yeah, I don't think so either. What about the 1989 Oakland earthquake? Or when Mount St. Helens erupted.

Bonnie
01-14-2010, 12:24 AM
I'm not sure 9/11 would be considered a natural disaster, Dave. :rolleyes:

No, but those hijackers were the Devil's kin for sure.

Blade
01-14-2010, 12:38 AM
God makes the weather, and according to the BIBLE He also punishes the Wicked WITH the weather at times. Haiti is a pretty bad place with voodoo and all of that demonic influence there.

What do you all think (scripture verses preferred to opinions/feelings if you are CITING God please).

I think God saw all the Haitians dealing drugs in Grand Theft Auto Vice City and punished them all for it. Either that or a tectonic plate slipped or something.

J.B.
01-14-2010, 12:41 AM
No.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/Iron421/lold.jpg

Bonnie
01-14-2010, 12:44 AM
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/Iron421/lold.jpg

:laugh: Too cute!!!

Mac
01-14-2010, 01:43 AM
I feel bad for thier loss . But everything happens for a reason . I personally believe God does these things to draw attention to certain situations , and at the rate this country is going we are not far behind.

at the risk of sounding cold hearted . I was watching this thisevening on the news a few of the folks in the room were talking about it , and the old standby popped into my head and i couldnt help but blurt it out . When i see these folks in africa and other countries , people begging for them saying how bad they have it . i just always have to say it .

Bow to another cow , or worship another snake and see how far that gets ya. I feel horrible for the children because they know no better , just what they are taught .

flo
01-14-2010, 01:47 AM
No...but a disastor non the less...and something on the scale of a natural disastor in turms of damage, loss of life AND the ability to put it down to some cause and effect relationship with GODs Wrath :rolleyes:

That was my thought too, when the Islamists said we "deserved" it because of our infidel ways.

When someone makes a statement like that about Haiti, it just gives the left more ammunition to attack Christianity.

The death toll could be as high as 300,000. Thank heavens for US aid, my prayers are with the victims and their families. I hope those waiting for rescue can hang on a little longer.

flo
01-14-2010, 01:51 AM
Either that or a tectonic plate slipped or something.

Q.E.D.

County Mike
01-14-2010, 02:04 AM
There's a BIG difference between a terrorist attack and a natural disaster. It takes men to create a terrorist attack. No men are involved in causing a natural disaster.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 02:55 AM
You won't find a scripture about God, the weather and Haiti in the Bible so if you remove opinions from your threads... it might be a pretty short discussion.
Yea, three pages later you were right :rolleyes::laugh:
But back to my point, waitasec, have you heard of Korah's rebellion, when God used an earthquake to take out Korah and a band of rebels? It has happened.

I think God does allow for bad things to happen to wake up people. Sometimes its the only answer.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 02:57 AM
I don't think every person in Haiti practices voodoo. That's just plain ignorant IMHO... There are Christians on Haiti, what are you on about? Lots of voodoo too though, demonic spirits am I false to assert this?

Vizion
01-14-2010, 03:00 AM
I think God saw all the Haitians dealing drugs in Grand Theft Auto Vice City and punished them all for it. Either that or a tectonic plate slipped or something.
Joking aside, do you feel God's Hand was in it (yes, or no would be great). :laugh:

Vizion
01-14-2010, 03:02 AM
I had a similar thought myself. When a place becomes so overridden with crime that nowhere at all is safe, the only option is a clean sweep. I do understand that some innocent children, etc. will be victims but some areas are really THAT bad.

Christians were persecuted in southern Asia, another crime-ridden area. They got hit by a Tsunami.
Crime ran rampant in New Orleans - Hurricane Katrina.
I'm sure there are many more examples and now Haiti.

It at least makes you think. Very nice. I have to agree here. God held back on Sodom and Gamorrah for a time because there were still righteous left...then he brought his holy wrath upon them. In cases like these even the righteous may have to suffer. God's Grace is sufficent for all, despite our physical suffering. Paul's affliction was never taken away, yet the Lord delivered gentiles from theirs at times.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 03:38 AM
The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. Scripture proof is when Jesus was out on the sea and the storm came and Jesus calmed it Mark 4:35-41. 39 is the key verse here. Jesus rebuked the wind. Had God been the cause of the storm in life why would Jesus rebuke himself (ie God). So man has no place blaming natural disasters on God. It is all Satan's fault

Chris F
01-14-2010, 03:40 AM
Yea, three pages later you were right :rolleyes::laugh:
But back to my point, waitasec, have you heard of Korah's rebellion, when God used an earthquake to take out Korah and a band of rebels? It has happened.

I think God does allow for bad things to happen to wake up people. Sometimes its the only answer.

God opened the earth. It was much more then an Earthquake.

Neezar
01-14-2010, 03:47 AM
No, but those hijackers were the Devil's kin for sure.

Well I believe Dave was implying they may have been sent as judgment on us from God. I would tend to agree moreso with your view of those folks.

:)

Chuck
01-14-2010, 04:01 AM
The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. Scripture proof is when Jesus was out on the sea and the storm came and Jesus calmed it Mark 4:35-41. 39 is the key verse here. Jesus rebuked the wind. Had God been the cause of the storm in life why would Jesus rebuke himself (ie God). So man has no place blaming natural disasters on God. It is all Satan's fault

That's an interesting take on all of this...

Vizion
01-14-2010, 04:39 AM
The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. Scripture proof is when Jesus was out on the sea and the storm came and Jesus calmed it Mark 4:35-41. 39 is the key verse here. Jesus rebuked the wind. Had God been the cause of the storm in life why would Jesus rebuke himself (ie God). So man has no place blaming natural disasters on God. It is all Satan's fault Hmmm...good point, never thought of that. Did not God cause sulfur to fall upon Sodom and Gamorrah when he destroyed those cities?

Bonnie
01-14-2010, 04:41 AM
Well I believe Dave was implying they may have been sent as judgment on us from God. I would tend to agree moreso with your view of those folks.

:)

Had to go back and reread Dave's post again. I missed that part the first time around. Yeah, I agree with him on the Haiti/natural disaster part but agree with you (and myself) on 9/11. :laugh:

Neezar
01-14-2010, 04:45 AM
Had to go back and reread Dave's post again. I missed that part the first time around. Yeah, I agree with him on the Haiti/natural disaster part but agree with you (and myself) on 9/11. :laugh:

:laugh:

Yeah, he always starts out well. If he would narrow his posts to 100 words or less he would avoid a lot of trouble. :laugh:

J.B.
01-14-2010, 05:37 AM
That's an interesting take on all of this...

Indeed it is :)

Kudos to ChrisF :wink:

alethou_theou
01-14-2010, 05:59 AM
If God has truly chosen to smite Haiti, I'm left wondering why Los Angeles is still standing? As someone who lives in Southern California, I personally think that the place I live is as morally deplorable as the place that was just leveled by natural disaster.

Remember John 8:3-11:

3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

I think it'd be a better idea to spend less time debating about whether or not God was smiting Haiti and more praying that the Christians in Haiti know how to glorify God through their suffering and that they will find their comfort in Him. It's been rather encouraging for me to hear that there are Christians in Haiti praying and praising God after the earthquake.

Ultimately, I think that if you're really to look at the heart of Americans today you'd find that we trespass against God in many of the same way Haitians do - while we may not idolize voodoo spirits, we're a country that idolizes sexuality and materialism. I say this not to "judge" America, but rather to remind people that we are in need of prayer as much as the people we recognize as morally deplorable.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 06:08 AM
Hmmm...good point, never thought of that. Did not God cause sulfur to fall upon Sodom and Gamorrah when he destroyed those cities?

Fire and brimstone are not natural occurrences from the sky. They only possibly natural explanation one may assume was volcanic eruption or metor shower but science is not 100% on that.

MattHughesRocks
01-14-2010, 06:08 AM
You have GOT to be kidding me.Where exactly do you live? How long have you lived there and how old are you?


If God has truly chosen to smite Haiti, I'm left wondering why Los Angeles is still standing? As someone who lives in Southern California, I personally think that the place I live is as morally deplorable as the place that was just leveled by natural disaster.

Remember John 8:3-11:

3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

I think it'd be a better idea to spend less time debating about whether or not God was smiting Haiti and more praying that the Christians in Haiti know how to glorify God through their suffering and that they will find their comfort in Him. It's been rather encouraging for me to hear that there are Christians in Haiti praying and praising God after the earthquake.

Ultimately, I think that if you're really to look at the heart of Americans today you'd find that we trespass against God in many of the same way Haitians do - while we may not idolize voodoo spirits, we're a country that idolizes sexuality and materialism. I say this not to "judge" America, but rather to remind people that we are in need of prayer as much as the people we recognize as morally deplorable.

Jonlion
01-14-2010, 07:26 AM
Got this email from a friend...........


I sent an email to most of you when my friend Caroline and I were raising money for Real Hope for Haiti. It seems now, more than ever, in a country that was already living in devastation, it needs help. I've been getting a lot of random people asking me if Tig is okay, since she was just in Haiti. She got back 3 days before the earthquake. You can read her thoughts on that here (www.ohsweetcaroline.blogspot.com). But, beyond that, I'm emailing for those who might, like Mark and I, want to help. I want to get on a plane and go there. I want to relieve the sorrow and pain as much as possible, and I know that's not going to happen. But I can help, and so can you.



A lot of people and news sources are sharing ways to give to help Haiti right now, and it seems a bit overwhelming. I'm thankful Haiti is getting so much attention. It needs it. The country needs love and grace and mercy upon it. And it needs actual tangible resources to help get though this, even a little bit.


Here are some GREAT ways to help if you feel on your heart to do so and are able to. I am so thankful for technology and how easy it accesses us to giving when called to, especially for those of us who won't be able to hope on a plane with a rescue team and physically go. Our resources can go. Our resources can heal wounds and feed stomachs.


Real Hope for Haiti, the organization we raise money for a few months ago, is taking donations on their website (https://realhopeforhaiti.org/). Scroll down to the PayPal button. The biggest needs now are funds to purchase food and supplies and prices have already doubled in the last 36 hours. There are 75 children sleeping under a tarp tonight who need to eat 3 meals a day.


Red Cross An easy way is to text "Haiti" to 90999 to give $10 to the Red Cross. It will be on your next phone bill.


Compassion International. For a $35 donation you can help a family receive every sort of disaster relief they might need in this first critical week. You can CLICK HERE OR you can text "disaster" to 90999 to give $10 to Compassion's disaster relief program.


Lastly, you can purchase an awesome shirt (photo attached). 100% of the profits will go to support ministries in Haiti. You can buy them here (http://www.aaronivey.portmerch.com/stores/product.php?productid=17149&cat=0&page=1&featured)


-----------


I know there are tons of other ways to help, I just wanted to share these with some friends and family who I thought might be interested.
I am greatly weighed down by this tragedy and find peace knowing the Truth in Psalm 46. That "God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, THOUGH THE EARTH GIVE WAY AND THE MOUNTAINS FALL INTO THE HEART OF THE SEA, though its waters roar and foam and the MOUNTAINS QUAKE WITH THEIR SURGING..."


I pray we don't watch this story on CNN and casually say how sad it is. I pray we do something.


So much love to you,

MattHughesRocks
01-14-2010, 07:39 AM
That's going to be tough.There are so many people that are going to collect funds to help and so many people that are going to scam money from people.

Always a safe way is directly through http://www.redcross.org/en/

Let's do what we can :)

donaldbreland
01-14-2010, 08:59 AM
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Miss Foxy
I don't think every person in Haiti practices voodoo. That's just plain ignorant IMHO.../QUOTE]

There were survivors. Maybe the good people survived. lol. Just messing with ya.

To tell you the truth it is not left up to me to wonder who caused what and why it happened. It is up to me however to do the only thing that can be done for those people who are suffering. Pray. I will pray for them and care for them because they are my brothers and sisters. They are sons and daughters of God and I love them. I have no right to judge them or speculate what religion they are practicing. Again I say this. The only right I have is to pray for them and put everything in Gods hands. If God wants me to go there and help then he will let me know. It's Gods plan first. I think we need to put him first in our lives and let him know we love him unconditionally. I am not speaking to the ones that do believe on here. I'm speaking to the ones that don't. By the way. I just thought it was right for me to tell everyone how much I love y'all and how thankful I am to have a group of people like yourselves on here to speak about God with. Thanks so much.

County Mike
01-14-2010, 11:49 AM
Anybody believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights?

Something to think about.

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 12:54 PM
But everything happens for a reason .
I'm not sure thats true. I think its more a case that GOD can make something good out of anything that happens.

Somethings are so horrific I dont believe they happen for a reason. I believe that GOD can however make something good come out of it. But I dont think with all the kiddy kidnap and killings that go on, that GOD exactly plans for that to happen, I'm sure he knows it will, but he allows free choice for people to choose to do evil sometimes.

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Well I believe Dave was implying...

No you didnt. Stop being an arse Denise. :angry: I truely hate it when your like this :angry:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 01:02 PM
Anybody believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights?

Something to think about.

40 is not just a real number, its also a symbolic number that means something when used in the scriptures :ninja:

I dont have a problem believing GOD could make it rain for forty days...okay its not continuous, but in England it practically rains every single day :laugh:

adamt
01-14-2010, 01:11 PM
I feel bad for thier loss . But everything happens for a reason . I personally believe God does these things to draw attention to certain situations , and at the rate this country is going we are not far behind.

at the risk of sounding cold hearted . I was watching this thisevening on the news a few of the folks in the room were talking about it , and the old standby popped into my head and i couldnt help but blurt it out . When i see these folks in africa and other countries , people begging for them saying how bad they have it . i just always have to say it .

Bow to another cow , or worship another snake and see how far that gets ya. I feel horrible for the children because they know no better , just what they are taught .


woohoo, preach it brother!!!

adamt
01-14-2010, 01:15 PM
Who fed the israelites in the wilderness?
The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. It is all Satan's fault



Did God judge the tower of babel?

The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. Scripture proof is when Jesus was out on the sea and the storm came and Jesus calmed it Mark 4:35-41. 39 is the key verse here. Jesus rebuked the wind. Had God been the cause of the storm in life why would Jesus rebuke himself (ie God). So man has no place blaming natural disasters on God. It is all Satan's fault

Did Noah get rained on?

The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. Scripture proof is when Jesus was out on the sea and the storm came and Jesus calmed it Mark 4:35-41. 39 is the key verse here. Jesus rebuked the wind. Had God been the cause of the storm in life why would Jesus rebuke himself (ie God). So man has no place blaming natural disasters on God. It is all Satan's fault

Where is Sodom and Gomorrah?
The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. Scripture proof is when Jesus was out on the sea and the storm came and Jesus calmed it Mark 4:35-41. 39 is the key verse here. Jesus rebuked the wind. Had God been the cause of the storm in life why would Jesus rebuke himself (ie God). So man has no place blaming natural disasters on God. It is all Satan's fault

adamt
01-14-2010, 01:16 PM
Fire and brimstone are not natural occurrences from the sky. They only possibly natural explanation one may assume was volcanic eruption or metor shower but science is not 100% on that.

how is a valcano eruption not natural but earthquakes are?

Neezar
01-14-2010, 02:30 PM
Well...there are a few interesting things...most noticeably the collapse of the Palace from where I believe the President, or Leader of the Nation lives...the other interesting thing is that on the other side of the Island...virtually no damage in the Dominican Republic...also interesting that the main target has appeared to be the Capital City.

However...I think that Natural Disastors are just part of the decay that comes with living in a fallen world...I think if it were Judgement, then you would have had some decree being issued to the City and the Nation...and that hasnt happened, for me, loud enough to mean this is Judgement...you know it would usually be a Prophet of large Standing, to directly come and and warn the city they must repent or suffer the consequences...if some big Christian did that, like some Huge Evangalist or something, then I would be more inclined to think it was Judgement of some kind.

So...in truth, No I dont think so. I think it was no more a judgement then the Tsunami was on the twelve odd countries it effected...but then I dont believe 9/11 was an act of Judgement either, and ive heard a lot of people say that in some way, both American and non American...I just dont think thats a strategy that is actively employed anymore.

You brought 9/11 into the equation to compare it to the current topic.

No...but a disastor non the less...and something on the scale of a natural disastor in turms of damage, loss of life AND the ability to put it down to some cause and effect relationship with GODs Wrath :rolleyes:

Then you clarify why it would qualify as an act of God's Wrath.


Well I believe Dave was implying they may have been sent as judgment on us from God. I would tend to agree moreso with your view of those folks.

:)

No you didnt. Stop being an arse Denise. :angry: I truely hate it when your like this :angry:

So, um, Yeah, I did believe that. Still do.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 02:51 PM
Anybody believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights?

Something to think about.
Why are you asking this?

The number 40 used by the Israelites was the same thing as saying "a very long time". Although it does say days and nights seemingly meaning 40 actual days...hmm..

Vizion
01-14-2010, 02:54 PM
ChrisF - God doesn't use Satan to judge the world in every case. Are you suggesting that He never throws down the hammer Himself? That he lets Satan do all the dirty work?

County Mike
01-14-2010, 03:26 PM
Why are you asking this?

The number 40 used by the Israelites was the same thing as saying "a very long time". Although it does say days and nights seemingly meaning 40 actual days...hmm..

I'm just saying that if you believe God caused the great flood of Noah's era, then why couldn't he do something similar in a selected area now?

I don't know if God is judging Haiti or not. I'm just saying it's possible and some others are saying he wouldn't do that. If he would create a great flood that undoubtedly took some innocents along with the wicked, what makes the Haiti situation different?

CAVEMAN
01-14-2010, 03:50 PM
It is almost fitting that this thread popped up. Last night at our prayer meeting, our Church received a letter from one of our missionaries we support. Keith and Theresa Baker are missionaries in Haiti. The letter was dated a week before the Earthquake. There have been several attempts to contact them, but no reply as of yet. Please be praying for these folks.

Miss Foxy
01-14-2010, 04:24 PM
There are Christians on Haiti, what are you on about? Lots of voodoo too though, demonic spirits am I false to assert this?

What do you mean what am I on about? Sorry dude, but I personally can't stand your radicalism behavior. Your Christian so am I. You seem to take things to a different level and it's highly irritating. :angry:

billwilliams70
01-14-2010, 04:32 PM
ChrisF - God doesn't use Satan to judge the world in every case. Are you suggesting that He never throws down the hammer Himself? That he lets Satan do all the dirty work?
That would mean that they are working together, and I, for one, don't think that they are.

Later.

Spiritwalker
01-14-2010, 04:53 PM
Thank you for putting that in a much nicer way that I was about to.


Clearly not in the same category as hurricanes, tsunamis and such. You are insulting their loss by even comparing....


http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/neezar086/funnies/usostupid.jpg

And I mean that in a loving way. :laugh:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 05:22 PM
You brought 9/11 into the equation to compare it to the current topic.



Then you clarify why it would qualify as an act of God's Wrath.






So, um, Yeah, I did believe that. Still do.

No Denise...My point was that other people HAVE, even on this forum, said that 9/11 could be looked at in that way. I said if I didnt believe that something like that could possibly be about GODs Judgement, then its not suprising I dont think that Natural Disastors do either. Try looking at the few words BEFORE the highlighted text in your first quote of me

But you just jumped on a tiny statement, to cause Drama like you used to in following me round the boards particularly in this sentance, when you dont even address the issue at hand yourself.

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 05:23 PM
Thank you for putting that in a much nicer way that I was about to.

and you can STFU too. I've had quite enough of your stage whispers over the past month. Quit it.

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 05:26 PM
ChrisF - God doesn't use Satan to judge the world in every case. Are you suggesting that He never throws down the hammer Himself? That he lets Satan do all the dirty work?

Try reading the Book of Job. :ninja:

Vizion
01-14-2010, 06:00 PM
What do you mean what am I on about? Sorry dude, but I personally can't stand your radicalism behavior. Your Christian so am I. You seem to take things to a different level and it's highly irritating. :angry: Never make it personal. NEVER. Attack the argument, NOT the arguer. I won't respond to personal attacks.

I looking for answers, and asking questions. If you don't like what I have to say, block my posts.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 06:03 PM
Try reading the Book of Job. :ninja:
You have a point, but did not God allow for the Israelites to get taken by Babylon? He clearly allows people to suffer to make a point. Hmmm....God doesn't need to use Satan for anything. I wish I had some scripture to back it up, or not. I guess we know God was involved in that earthquake for certain. Whether it was through direct influence or indirect (via Satanic forces) is my only question...mayhaps it doesn't even matter...

Vizion
01-14-2010, 06:05 PM
I'm just saying that if you believe God caused the great flood of Noah's era, then why couldn't he do something similar in a selected area now?

I don't know if God is judging Haiti or not. I'm just saying it's possible and some others are saying he wouldn't do that. If he would create a great flood that undoubtedly took some innocents along with the wicked, what makes the Haiti situation different? I believe you are correct. Innocents will always suffer and pay for the sins of the wicked.

Now, the question remains: was this earthquake a FORM of God's judgment. I believe it is.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 06:11 PM
That would mean that they are working together, and I, for one, don't think that they are.

Later.
Hmmm...what about Job then? God allowed Satan to torment Job. They, in a sense, were co-conspirators, yes?

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 06:12 PM
I guess we know God was involved in that earthquake for certain. .

Your still assuming that it was some kind of Judgement. In the Old Testament GOD used to Judge Nations and people as they went along. But that was the OLD testament....and its only really been desperatly with HIS chosen people. He might have destoryed Sodom...but the whole world outside of the Jews, were heathen and non believers...and he didnt distroy all of them did he?

Personally, I've told you what I think. The Earth is fallen, its imperfect, creation, as a whole has been tarnished by our sin. I think a lot of catastrophe have nothing really to do with GOD in such an active manner. I think its usually either the freedom he grants to evil to work as a matter of our free choice...OR its a case of some kinda decay in Creation itself.

There is examples of GOD using the devil in Job, But...I dont think that GOD works like this much. I told you also, that in the Bible the Cities have usually been warned. It doesnt come out of the blue.

Thats just my thoughts...but I dissagree that we have any real proof or knowledge that GOD comanded, did, planned, judged, anything in application to Haiti.

Also...I wish I'd taken your attitude with the personal attack comment. Forgive my outburst in your thread. I've had a major dissapointment tonight and reading Denise just made me really angry :sad:

Miss Foxy
01-14-2010, 06:40 PM
Never make it personal. NEVER. Attack the argument, NOT the arguer. I won't respond to personal attacks.

I looking for answers, and asking questions. If you don't like what I have to say, block my posts.

Don't play the victim.. How do you think I felt when you PM me about being a "bad girl"? Yeah you pass judgement homie. That's why I don't like you.

County Mike
01-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Don't play the victim.. How do you think I felt when you PM me about being a "bad girl"? Yeah you pass judgement homie. That's why I don't like you.

Haha. Was he calling you a "bad girl" or asking if you were one?

Jonlion
01-14-2010, 06:48 PM
It is almost fitting that this thread popped up. Last night at our prayer meeting, our Church received a letter from one of our missionaries we support. Keith and Theresa Baker are missionaries in Haiti. The letter was dated a week before the Earthquake. There have been several attempts to contact them, but no reply as of yet. Please be praying for these folks.

Hey brother, they shall be in my prayers.

MattHughesRocks
01-14-2010, 06:59 PM
Are you kidding us? How inappropriate :unsure-1:


Don't play the victim.. How do you think I felt when you PM me about being a "bad girl"? Yeah you pass judgement homie. That's why I don't like you.

Jonlion
01-14-2010, 06:59 PM
Who knows if it is God passing judgement but really they may worship vodoo idols but America and Britain probably house more people that Haiti that worship the idol of celebrity or money.

So it is all conjecture.

Well as we know the Lord is all knowing, all powerful and at times this can be very hard to comprehend in tragic situations.

From 9/11 to WW II to earthquakes in Haiti, it is happening and God has permitted it and sometimes we cannot offer up answers for why.

We can only pray and trust in the Lord.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:11 PM
Anybody believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights?

Something to think about.

Some people teach God removed a barrier which allowed the clouds to pour because the verse says it had never rained before that time. I am not sold on that idea. I think of the story as an expression of Gods soveriginty. He knew the Earth was going to be flooded and prepared his people for it. I do not think he caused it. It has rained 40 days and night in a row since and no floods of the magnatiude. God knew trouble was coime and prepared for it. This of course is just my opinion because I cannot say for certain with book chapter and verse. To me its fits God's nature and divinity.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:18 PM
Who fed the israelites in the wilderness? I never said God could not use the World he does all the time. Also BTW when was the last time it rained MANA Come on man you are really stretching it to make a moot point



Did God judge the tower of babel? Yeah he judged them but read the text. Did God cause the calamity? Every time a building falls it is Gods fault? The key in that story was the creation of languages and the sinfulness of man. No so much judgement. You have the Jim Carrey view of God. He is some mean kid on an ant hill with a magnifying glass. When God judged it was typically fire and brimstone not natural causes.


Did Noah get rained on?See my comments on County Mikes post



Where is Sodom and Gomorrah?It is buried in ash and rubble. Again when has it ever rained fire and brimstone? Unless you count volcanoes or meteor showerin red

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:20 PM
how is a valcano eruption not natural but earthquakes are?

I di not say that. I was saying that, that would be the only natural explanation. Scripture does not say it was an eruption so why would anyone want to make it be. It was fire and brimstone and it was from God. Fore and brimstone from heaven is not natural.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:26 PM
ChrisF - God doesn't use Satan to judge the world in every case. Are you suggesting that He never throws down the hammer Himself? That he lets Satan do all the dirty work?

Good question. Thin of it this way. What does the bible say about judgement and when it comes. I think the fact many of those Haitians died and will go to hell because of their rejection of Christ. Satan wants to destroy man. JOhn says The Enemy seeks to KILL steal and DESTROY not God. God allows bad stuff to happen but since Christ Crucifixion he has not gone out of his way to do that. That would mean God is the enemy. Satan want to kill as many people as possible especially those who do not know God. Satan is doing his own dirty Work God is just allowing it because of their sinfulness. I said the same thing during Katrina, and the quakes in California and the tornaodes here in Oklahoma. Bible says God wishes that none shall perish. If that is true why would he seek to kill those who do nto know him?

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:27 PM
It is almost fitting that this thread popped up. Last night at our prayer meeting, our Church received a letter from one of our missionaries we support. Keith and Theresa Baker are missionaries in Haiti. The letter was dated a week before the Earthquake. There have been several attempts to contact them, but no reply as of yet. Please be praying for these folks.

Keep us posted sir and yes we should all pray for these workers of the faith

billwilliams70
01-14-2010, 07:27 PM
Hmmm...what about Job then? God allowed Satan to torment Job. They, in a sense, were co-conspirators, yes?
Yes, in that situation, they were, in a sense, co-conspirators. However, Job was a God fearing man, that sought after God. There's a difference between him and the man that does NOT fear God's consequnces.

Romans 8:19-21
(19) The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
(20) For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope (21) that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Later.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:29 PM
That would mean that they are working together, and I, for one, don't think that they are.

Later.

Exactly!

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:31 PM
You have a point, but did not God allow for the Israelites to get taken by Babylon? He clearly allows people to suffer to make a point. Hmmm....God doesn't need to use Satan for anything. I wish I had some scripture to back it up, or not. I guess we know God was involved in that earthquake for certain. Whether it was through direct influence or indirect (via Satanic forces) is my only question...mayhaps it doesn't even matter...

He does not use Satan. Satan wanted to prove the point God knew Job would do the right thing. Satan was doing it all. God simply allowed it to prove JOb was a righteous man. He did not use Satan to test Job.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:33 PM
Who knows if it is God passing judgement but really they may worship vodoo idols but America and Britain probably house more people that Haiti that worship the idol of celebrity or money.

So it is all conjecture.

Well as we know the Lord is all knowing, all powerful and at times this can be very hard to comprehend in tragic situations.

From 9/11 to WW II to earthquakes in Haiti, it is happening and God has permitted it and sometimes we cannot offer up answers for why.

We can only pray and trust in the Lord.

God is God we are not. This is great advice Jon

Spiritwalker
01-14-2010, 07:35 PM
and you can STFU too. I've had quite enough of your stage whispers over the past month. Quit it.

No, you quit it.

"Stage Whispers"??? Is that a British thing? I was only thanking someone for doing what I was going to do, but in a much nicer way.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 07:39 PM
Don't play the victim.. How do you think I felt when you PM me about being a "bad girl"? Yeah you pass judgement homie. That's why I don't like you.
You called yourself a bad girl in a thread. I felt kind of like you ripping on yourself and making fun of that. It made me a little sad. I did not call you a BAD GIRL. You did.

Thanks for taking the high road, now can we please stay on topic. This thread is very interesting. I feel I'm being fed here.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 07:40 PM
CAN WE KEEP THE DISCUSSION CIVIL AND ON TOPIC PLEASE?

County Mike
01-14-2010, 07:45 PM
CAN WE KEEP THE DISCUSSION CIVIL AND ON TOPIC PLEASE?

What fun is that?

Vizion
01-14-2010, 07:47 PM
Good question. Thin of it this way. What does the bible say about judgement and when it comes. I think the fact many of those Haitians died and will go to hell because of their rejection of Christ. Satan wants to destroy man. JOhn says The Enemy seeks to KILL steal and DESTROY not God. God allows bad stuff to happen but since Christ Crucifixion he has not gone out of his way to do that. That would mean God is the enemy. Satan want to kill as many people as possible especially those who do not know God. Satan is doing his own dirty Work God is just allowing it because of their sinfulness. I said the same thing during Katrina, and the quakes in California and the tornaodes here in Oklahoma. Bible says God wishes that none shall perish. If that is true why would he seek to kill those who do nto know him?
OK, but God foresaw the earthquake and didn't stop it. He allowed for it to happen because of their sinning. K, I guess I see that as Him casting judgment upon them. Are we on the same page here?? :laugh:

Spiritwalker
01-14-2010, 07:47 PM
CAN WE KEEP THE DISCUSSION CIVIL AND ON TOPIC PLEASE?

I was being civil. I read in this thread all the time. Rarely comment.. but I do read.

I for one do not see the earthquake in Haiti as a judgment. No more so than the tsunami, or what happened in New Orleans.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 07:48 PM
What fun is that? It's fun, you should try it sometime :laugh:

Vizion
01-14-2010, 07:52 PM
He does not use Satan. Satan wanted to prove the point God knew Job would do the right thing. Satan was doing it all. God simply allowed it to prove JOb was a righteous man. He did not use Satan to test Job.
Hmm...maybe "use" is the wrong word...allows in stead.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:54 PM
OK, but God foresaw the earthquake and didn't stop it. He allowed for it to happen because of their sinning. K, I guess I see that as Him casting judgment upon them. Are we on the same page here?? :laugh:

God judgement is reserved till the end. His intervention only comes in the form od divine protection. God should not be blamed for the evils of this world anymore then you can blame the janitor at school for your bad grades. The ENEMY KILLS, STEALS, AND DESTROYS. Not God. Prior to the New Covenant God did in fact bring judgement on His people. But not since Christ ascended into heaven has he caused or cast down judgement on anyone. I may have missed a verse and if you have one I'd like to see it. God does not want any to perish so why on earth would destroy them so they can be assured hell?

Bonnie
01-14-2010, 07:54 PM
No...but a disastor non the less...and something on the scale of a natural disastor in turms of damage, loss of life AND the ability to put it down to some cause and effect relationship with GODs Wrath :rolleyes:

Dave, the part bolded above is what "confused" things, I think for Denise and me (if I may be so bold as to speak for D :laugh:). However, rereading it (again :rolleyes:) and also noting your ":rolleyes:" at the end, I think you were referring to those people you mentioned in your very first post who make some connection between 911 and God' wrath. You weren't saying that's what you believe regarding 911.

Have I got it right.....now? :huh:

If so, I apologize for misconstruing what you wrote. :ashamed:

Chris F
01-14-2010, 07:56 PM
Hmm...maybe "use" is the wrong word...allows in stead.

use would assume God is in control and thus behind it and thus going against his nature whiuch makes God a liar and the bible false and our faith a sham. It is a slippery slope as you can see.

Jonlion
01-14-2010, 07:58 PM
CAN WE KEEP THE DISCUSSION CIVIL AND ON TOPIC PLEASE?

No

Vizion
01-14-2010, 08:02 PM
God judgement is reserved till the end. His intervention only comes in the form od divine protection. God should not be blamed for the evils of this world anymore then you can blame the janitor at school for your bad grades. The ENEMY KILLS, STEALS, AND DESTROYS. Not God. Prior to the New Covenant God did in fact bring judgement on His people. But not since Christ ascended into heaven has he caused or cast down judgement on anyone. I may have missed a verse and if you have one I'd like to see it. God does not want any to perish so why on earth would destroy them so they can be assured hell?
Okkkkkkkkkk.......got it. Nice work Chris. Sorry it took so long to sink in :).

Jonlion
01-14-2010, 08:05 PM
God judgement is reserved till the end. His intervention only comes in the form od divine protection. God should not be blamed for the evils of this world anymore then you can blame the janitor at school for your bad grades. The ENEMY KILLS, STEALS, AND DESTROYS. Not God. Prior to the New Covenant God did in fact bring judgement on His people. But not since Christ ascended into heaven has he caused or cast down judgement on anyone. I may have missed a verse and if you have one I'd like to see it. God does not want any to perish so why on earth would destroy them so they can be assured hell?

Do you think it is possible that sometimes God being merciful could kill.

Like if he was to take my life now, I would be saved and that is potentially saving me from future sins against the Lord.

I guess it plays into the saying about the "good dying young"!!!!!

The one I have mentioned before that blows me away is Zechariah, a wonderfully Godly man who is impertinant in his lack of faith that he may have a child.

What does God do but strike him dumb so that he cannot utter another word until the birth. How amazing, for it is not a punishment but him being merciful because he is stopping him sinning and speaking against the Lord.

What are your thoughts on this as I guess killing someones physical body is a greater step!

Spiritwalker
01-14-2010, 08:22 PM
OK, but God foresaw the earthquake and didn't stop it. He allowed for it to happen because of their sinning. K, I guess I see that as Him casting judgment upon them. Are we on the same page here?? :laugh:

ok, if that is the case, what about the all the violence that we see in churches?

Vizion
01-14-2010, 08:24 PM
ok, if that is the case, what about the all the violence that we see in churches?hmm...care to cite an example?

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 08:42 PM
Haha. Was he calling you a "bad girl" or asking if you were one?

:laugh:

Chris F
01-14-2010, 08:43 PM
Do you think it is possible that sometimes God being merciful could kill.

Like if he was to take my life now, I would be saved and that is potentially saving me from future sins against the Lord.

I guess it plays into the saying about the "good dying young"!!!!!

The one I have mentioned before that blows me away is Zechariah, a wonderfully Godly man who is impertinant in his lack of faith that he may have a child.

What does God do but strike him dumb so that he cannot utter another word until the birth. How amazing, for it is not a punishment but him being merciful because he is stopping him sinning and speaking against the Lord.

What are your thoughts on this as I guess killing someones physical body is a greater step!

God can do anything he wants. But I kinda feel like this is more of the question can God make a stone so big he can;t lift it. God can but will he? Scripture says he won't. Good point abiut the mute example. But it is a much greater step. I blamed God for years for killing my mother when I was a kid. It was not till I finally read John a few time that it sunk it and that Satan did the killing not God. He did allow it and I realise going home to God is better then suffering with a disease. I have combed the NT many times trying to find an exmaple of his bringing down judgement. I have not found one yet. I may not find it. Until I do I do not think we can claim God kills people to cast doiwn judgement on them. To me that is contray to his person and His Word

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 08:46 PM
No, you quit it.

"Stage Whispers"??? Is that a British thing? I was only thanking someone for doing what I was going to do, but in a much nicer way.

No, you were making a point. Stage whispers...its kinda like what a punk does, you know one liners answering back, trying to be smart and sarcastic.

I dont suffer fools gladly....and I dont quit :laugh:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 08:50 PM
God judgement is reserved till the end. His intervention only comes in the form od divine protection. God should not be blamed for the evils of this world anymore then you can blame the janitor at school for your bad grades. The ENEMY KILLS, STEALS, AND DESTROYS. Not God. Prior to the New Covenant God did in fact bring judgement on His people. But not since Christ ascended into heaven has he caused or cast down judgement on anyone. I may have missed a verse and if you have one I'd like to see it. God does not want any to perish so why on earth would destroy them so they can be assured hell?

GOOD POINT, and one i'd overlooked :) Even in the Old Testament you have uberlong passages where GOD tells people that he never wants to condemn and send people to Hell....but he is in great turmoil because he is Holy, and he can do nothing but deliver Justice...which is kinda contrary to what he actually desires from His Creation.

He would really like for us to be Holy to. :)

Spiritwalker
01-14-2010, 08:51 PM
No, you were making a point. Stage whispers...its kinda like what a punk does, you know one liners answering back, trying to be smart and sarcastic.

I dont suffer fools gladly....and I dont quit :laugh:


What did that have to do with me agreeing with someone?

So now you decide to call me a fool? yer a very funny guy.. in so many ways.

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 08:53 PM
Dave, the part bolded above is what "confused" things, I think for Denise and me (if I may be so bold as to speak for D :laugh:). However, rereading it (again :rolleyes:) and also noting your ":rolleyes:" at the end, I think you were referring to those people you mentioned in your very first post who make some connection between 911 and God' wrath. You weren't saying that's what you believe regarding 911.

Have I got it right.....now? :huh:

If so, I apologize for misconstruing what you wrote. :ashamed:

Yes...you are right...that is what I mean. Denise knows me well, She should know...probably because I've said it before...that I dont believe that 9/11 is GODs judgement on America...even if you remove him from your classrooms et al which is what the thread it came up in was about.

I'm just in a real bad mood. I'm sorry for shouting at everyone except Denise coz she deserved it :laugh:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 08:59 PM
Do you think it is possible that sometimes God being merciful could kill.

Like if he was to take my life now, I would be saved and that is potentially saving me from future sins against the Lord.

I guess it plays into the saying about the "good dying young"!!!!!

The one I have mentioned before that blows me away is Zechariah, a wonderfully Godly man who is impertinant in his lack of faith that he may have a child.

What does God do but strike him dumb so that he cannot utter another word until the birth. How amazing, for it is not a punishment but him being merciful because he is stopping him sinning and speaking against the Lord.

What are your thoughts on this as I guess killing someones physical body is a greater step!

I dont think he need do that, because I dont think he needs to worry about people slipping like that. That would be like GOD just needs to wait til someone believes, then quick, kill them before they blow it...I dont think he works like that...but it is a very interesting thing...because he often does seem to do things to help....I mean, look at Saint Paul...wasnt he blinded, physically for a short while after the conversion process?...and look at Martyrs, he doesnt stop them being killed for what they believe in...sometimes I wonder if them dying is almost an act of mercy along the lines you mean, because is it not the ultimate glorification of both...I mean just as such a thing Glorifies GOD...in a way, GOD permitting it to happen...comming from a fallen and sinful individual...is that not also an expression of love from him...and an expression of almost glorifying the person from His point of view...like a divine commendation?

He also does things like tell the demons to STFU about who he is, to prevent people from understanding about him too soon....he IS interactive...I just dont know how far im prepared to say that goes.

btw...speaking of Saint Paul's Conversion... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Fjur0SpG4 :)

County Mike
01-14-2010, 09:01 PM
ok, if that is the case, what about the all the violence that we see in churches?

Where do you go to church? Pretty peaceful in mine.

Bonnie
01-14-2010, 09:03 PM
Maybe he's talking about some of these church shootings/killings in recent years. :unsure-1:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 09:04 PM
What did that have to do with me agreeing with someone?

So now you decide to call me a fool? yer a very funny guy.. in so many ways.

Its making a Statement. Maybe you read it wrong...but I doubt it. ANYTHING to dissagree with me and make me look shytty...you just have to jump on the bandwagon by making such a point, I wouldnt have been so nice, because I'm a masculine dude whose always right and doesnt fear the mighty tyburn, thankgoodness this women has shut him up...sorta thing.

I said I dont suffer fools gladly. If I were you I wouldnt lable myself a Fool...lables and Words are quite powerful, and I'd hate for you to become a fool through self talk.

Glad you find me funny, wish I could say the same about you.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 09:05 PM
He also does things like tell the demons to STFU about who he is, to prevent people from understanding about him too soon....he IS interactive...I just dont know how far im prepared to say that goes.

:laugh: Yea, don't quote God verbatim or anything.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 09:06 PM
Maybe he's talking about some of these church shootings/killings in recent years. :unsure-1:
The isolated incidents, or the ones we hear about practically every night on the news :laugh:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 09:06 PM
:laugh: Yea, don't quote God verbatim or anything.

:unsure-1: okay...so I paraphrased..a little :ashamed:

:laugh:

Neezar
01-14-2010, 09:10 PM
Yes...you are right...that is what I mean. Denise knows me well, She should know...probably because I've said it before...that I dont believe that 9/11 is GODs judgement on America...even if you remove him from your classrooms et al which is what the thread it came up in was about.

I'm just in a real bad mood. I'm sorry for shouting at everyone except Denise coz she deserved it :laugh:

I sure do. And I stand by every word I said.

And I could continue to pick apart your posts but to what end? You brought up 9/11 in comparison to this thread topic. You clarified how 9/11 could be considered a product of God's wrath. Doesn't matter if you believed it or not, you were still implying that it was possible that it was a judgment from God. Which is what I stated before and I still believe it to be true.

And you can continue to hide behind the 'I'm the victim and Denise won't leave me alone.' But that has nothing to do with this. I would have called out anyone who posted what you did. But I've said my peace and I'm jumping ship here.

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 09:19 PM
But I've said my peace and I'm jumping ship here.

you mean Piece Denise...You've said your piece, not peace...one means bit of, the other means pax

Not that I'd want to pick your post apart...since its obvious what you meant. :laugh:

Oh and as for the Victim thing...I dont need to pretend to be a victim when your around...because then I actually truely feel like I am one...when you do what you've done in this thread...without warning...just to humiliate me. Why you always think the worst of me, I dont know. :unsure-1:

Neezar
01-14-2010, 09:20 PM
No...but a disastor non the less...and something on the scale of a natural disastor in turms of damage, loss of life AND the ability to put it down to some cause and effect relationship with GODs Wrath :rolleyes:

you mean Piece Denise...You've said your piece, not peace...one means bit of, the other means pax

Not that I'd want to pick your post apart...since its obvious what you meant. :laugh:

Oh and as for the Victim thing...I dont need to pretend to be a victim when your around...because then I actually truely feel like I am one...when you do what you've done in this thread...without warning...just to humiliate me. Why you always think the worst of me, I dont know. :unsure-1:

I never said that you believed anything.



No...but a disastor non the less...and something on the scale of a natural disastor in turms of damage, loss of life AND the ability to put it down to some cause and effect relationship with GODs Wrath :rolleyes:

Well I believe Dave was implying they may have been sent as judgment on us from God. I would tend to agree moreso with your view of those folks.

:)


Replace the word "may" with "could". That is what I said and I meant it.

You were implying that it is possible that 9/11 was a judgment from God. I never said anything about your personal beliefs. So Dave you are the one that took a statement and ran with it to create some drama.



Okay, NOW I've said my peace. lol

Neezar
01-14-2010, 09:31 PM
Oh and as for the Victim thing...I dont need to pretend to be a victim when your around...because then I actually truely feel like I am one...when you do what you've done in this thread...without warning...just to humiliate me. Why you always think the worst of me, I dont know. :unsure-1:
Wait a minute...so if I disagree with you then I must be trying to humiliate you? :blink:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 09:36 PM
I never said that you believed anything.




Okay, NOW I've said my peace. lol

Well why didnt you just SAY that in the first place Denise :angry:

:laugh:

Tyburn
01-14-2010, 09:37 PM
Wait a minute...so if I disagree with you then I must be trying to humiliate you? :blink:

No...not always...just sometimes...like if you dissagree with me on a matter of whose gonna win an MMA bout...its nothing...but if its a moral point..then you always end up making me look...stupid :mellow:

:laugh:

...and I hate it :angry:

:laugh:

Jonlion
01-14-2010, 09:41 PM
God can do anything he wants. But I kinda feel like this is more of the question can God make a stone so big he can;t lift it. God can but will he? Scripture says he won't. Good point abiut the mute example. But it is a much greater step. I blamed God for years for killing my mother when I was a kid. It was not till I finally read John a few time that it sunk it and that Satan did the killing not God. He did allow it and I realise going home to God is better then suffering with a disease. I have combed the NT many times trying to find an exmaple of his bringing down judgement. I have not found one yet. I may not find it. Until I do I do not think we can claim God kills people to cast doiwn judgement on them. To me that is contray to his person and His Word

Thank you my man.

Appreciate the answer, just something I had pondered and is difficult to find anything about it in his word.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 10:06 PM
Thank you my man.

Appreciate the answer, just something I had pondered and is difficult to find anything about it in his word.

I think the age old question why do bad things happen to good people will always make us wonder why things happen. I just think we need to be careful who we blame. I have struggled wiht this issue for a long time so I understand how you feel when you ponder this. Why did my mom have to die. Why did I get cancer, why why why? Sin! Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. So you said it best we need to pray and let God be God. :)

Chris F
01-14-2010, 10:36 PM
It seems Pat Robertson is at it again. Says the people in Hati made a oact with the devil and are reaping that now. :sad:

God is not the author of misery. He is the God of love and well being. He is judge that is for sure. But he is not so petty as this.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 10:47 PM
hmmm...that's true tho, about the oath with the devil. Was it to set them free from occupation or something?

Miss Foxy
01-14-2010, 10:48 PM
It seems Pat Robertson is at it again. Says the people in Hati made a oact with the devil and are reaping that now. :sad:

God is not the author of misery. He is the God of love and well being. He is judge that is for sure. But he is not so petty as this.

Exactly!! A song just came on in the office "Where is the love" by Black Eyed Peas..People killin', people dyin'
Children hurt and you hear them cryin'
Can you practice what you preach
And would you turn the other cheek

Father, Father, Father help us
Send some guidance from above
'Cause people got me, got me questionin'
Where is the love

Jonlion
01-14-2010, 10:53 PM
I think the age old question why do bad things happen to good people will always make us wonder why things happen. I just think we need to be careful who we blame. I have struggled wiht this issue for a long time so I understand how you feel when you ponder this. Why did my mom have to die. Why did I get cancer, why why why? Sin! Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. So you said it best we need to pray and let God be God. :)

So far in my life i have been good in not blaming the lord when bad things go happen. I remember being very young and reading the children's Bible and loving Job!

I agree that suffering will always be a contentious issue and cause us to ask why but we must count our blessings and beware of Satan because he will use anything he can to take our hearts from the Lord.

Vizion
01-14-2010, 11:01 PM
I think the age old question why do bad things happen to good people will always make us wonder why things happen. I just think we need to be careful who we blame. I have struggled wiht this issue for a long time so I understand how you feel when you ponder this. Why did my mom have to die. Why did I get cancer, why why why? Sin! Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. So you said it best we need to pray and let God be God. :)
Hmmm...its not about blaming tho. If God does it, it is RIGHT. We don't get to "judge" God, He judges US. If God caused Hurricane Katrina, the Tsunami etc etc it was in His perfect will and it is good.

God controlled the weather that sent the wind to lift the Red Sea into divisions. God was in the whirlwind. God smote Sodom and Gamorrah. God flooded the entire Earth and wiped out everyone and everything on the land. All of it was good. We don't "blame" God for what He did. We acknowledge His sovereignty over the Earth and our very lives, very souls.

Chris F
01-14-2010, 11:33 PM
Hmmm...its not about blaming tho. If God does it, it is RIGHT. We don't get to "judge" God, He judges US. If God caused Hurricane Katrina, the Tsunami etc etc it was in His perfect will and it is good.

God controlled the weather that sent the wind to lift the Red Sea into divisions. God was in the whirlwind. God smote Sodom and Gamorrah. God flooded the entire Earth and wiped out everyone and everything on the land. All of it was good. We don't "blame" God for what He did. We acknowledge His sovereignty over the Earth and our very lives, very souls.

All OT examples. Things changed at the cross. His will is that none shall perish.

adamt
01-15-2010, 12:48 AM
is haiti a christian nation chris?

Vizion
01-15-2010, 01:37 AM
All OT examples. Things changed at the cross. His will is that none shall perish.
Hmm...thanks Chris...I feel I'm getting "fed" by your ministry. :)

Chuck
01-15-2010, 02:20 AM
Sorry about the marathon reply but I've been a little behind in following this thread....

I had a similar thought myself. When a place becomes so overridden with crime that nowhere at all is safe, the only option is a clean sweep. I do understand that some innocent children, etc. will be victims but some areas are really THAT bad.

Christians were persecuted in southern Asia, another crime-ridden area. They got hit by a Tsunami.
Crime ran rampant in New Orleans - Hurricane Katrina.
I'm sure there are many more examples and now Haiti.

It at least makes you think.
It not only makes you think Mike but it's an excellent observation!

Joking aside, do you feel God's Hand was in it (yes, or no would be great). :laugh:
Absolutely.

The bible is pretty clear. Satan is the prince of the air and because of sin allowed to manipulate the world. So God allowed this to happen but in no way caused it. Scripture proof is when Jesus was out on the sea and the storm came and Jesus calmed it Mark 4:35-41. 39 is the key verse here. Jesus rebuked the wind. Had God been the cause of the storm in life why would Jesus rebuke himself (ie God). So man has no place blaming natural disasters on God. It is all Satan's fault
I disagree completely. The Earth and all that is in it is God's creation.. Not God. How is God calming a storm rebuking Himself? He's simply commanding His creation. If He can turn it on, can't He turn it off?

Anybody believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights?
Absolutely. But it wasn't just rain.. the waters came up from the earth as well...
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

ChrisF - God doesn't use Satan to judge the world in every case. Are you suggesting that He never throws down the hammer Himself? That he lets Satan do all the dirty work?
Excellent point.

Now, the question remains: was this earthquake a FORM of God's judgment. I believe it is.
I'm not in a place that I would say it is as much as it could be. :wink:

Hmmm...what about Job then? God allowed Satan to torment Job. They, in a sense, were co-conspirators, yes?
Something about that wording makes me horribly uncomfortable.

Some people teach God removed a barrier which allowed the clouds to pour because the verse says it had never rained before that time. I am not sold on that idea. I think of the story as an expression of Gods soveriginty. He knew the Earth was going to be flooded and prepared his people for it. I do not think he caused it. It has rained 40 days and night in a row since and no floods of the magnatiude. God knew trouble was coime and prepared for it. This of course is just my opinion because I cannot say for certain with book chapter and verse. To me its fits God's nature and divinity.
First off I want to say, and I mean this absolutely sincerely.. that I appreciate and compliment you in making the distinction that this is your opinion and not fact.

With that being said I do disagree with you completely. To say that God "knew" the earth would flood but didn't cause it is simply ridiculous. Did He "know" the Red/Reed Sea was going to part and just guided the people there or did He part it? Is His power over the sea somehow different than his power over rain? Did He command a pillar of fire to appear or just prepare the people because he knew it would? :huh:
Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. See also the scripture above I quoted for Mike. To say it's rained 40 days since then and the Earth hasn't flooded is foolish. Because it's hasn't since... doesn't mean it didn't then. Am I just misunderstanding you here Chris?

God judgement is reserved till the end. His intervention only comes in the form od divine protection. God should not be blamed for the evils of this world anymore then you can blame the janitor at school for your bad grades. The ENEMY KILLS, STEALS, AND DESTROYS. Not God. Prior to the New Covenant God did in fact bring judgement on His people. But not since Christ ascended into heaven has he caused or cast down judgement on anyone. I may have missed a verse and if you have one I'd like to see it. God does not want any to perish so why on earth would destroy them so they can be assured hell?
There is a difference between wanting someone to perish and allowing them to.

use would assume God is in control and thus behind it and thus going against his nature whiuch makes God a liar and the bible false and our faith a sham. It is a slippery slope as you can see.
How is it going against His nature?

It seems Pat Robertson is at it again. Says the people in Hati made a oact with the devil and are reaping that now. :sad:

God is not the author of misery. He is the God of love and well being. He is judge that is for sure. But he is not so petty as this.
The wages of sin are death are they not? A nation devoted to black magic and voodoo turning their back on Christ.. I don't see that as petty.

All OT examples. Things changed at the cross. His will is that none shall perish.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. What changed at the cross exactly? Do you believe His will changed? God continually and consistently used the elements to bring His judgment upon the people. Why would that change? I often times disagree with you Chris but I almost always see your perspective. In this case I really don't. I must be missing something....

If we pray for and believe God's hand of protection can be upon a nation then why can't His hand of judgment be also? I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive.

And for the record before the responses come pouring in.. I'm NOT saying this earthquake was God's judgment.. I'm simply saying I believe it could have been. Whether is was or not is beyond my ability to discern.

Robertboxerboy
01-15-2010, 02:21 AM
Until this thread GOD didn't come to mind with this dissaster.

I do believe GOD had something to do with this. I think he can both control the weather and let it happen naturally. With all that has happened to Haiti with crime and such I beleive god brought down his wrath to wake Haiti. The same as GOD flooded the Earth to rid sinners and remind them that he is still there. And I believe he had an influence to the disasster to Haiti.

With GOD and satan working together, no. But I believe GOD uses Satan as a strategie.

Robertboxerboy
01-15-2010, 02:26 AM
And GOD is loving. I am not excellent on scipture but does it not say that he is also easily angered yet, very forgiving in the same respect? So could it be that he was angered with Haiti?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Spiritwalker
01-15-2010, 03:49 AM
Where do you go to church? Pretty peaceful in mine.

My church isn't the point.. I have read about Churches that have had horrible violence..

It's around if you look.

NateR
01-15-2010, 04:07 AM
In Luke 13:1-5, Jesus spoke about the spiritual significance of two tragic occurrences that happened during His years walking the earth (they were the "breaking news" stories of the time):

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

So, tragedies are not a time for us to be thinking, "What did they do wrong to deserve this?" They are a time for us to be examining our own hearts.

MattHughesRocks
01-15-2010, 04:12 AM
I've been waiting for you to arrive :rolleyes:

Vizion
01-15-2010, 04:13 AM
I've been waiting for you to arrive :happydancing:
Fixed :wink:

Spiritwalker
01-15-2010, 04:19 AM
Its making a Statement. Maybe you read it wrong...but I doubt it. ANYTHING to dissagree with me and make me look shytty...

Not really.. just most things that have to do with America, tolerance of things that are different...

you just have to jump on the bandwagon by making such a point,

Trust me.. I have not jumped on any bandwagon... It comes from several years of seeing your posts..

I do agree with you on many things.. but the issues I disagree with.. polar opposites



I wouldnt have been so nice, because I'm a masculine dude whose always right and doesnt fear the mighty tyburn, thankgoodness this women has shut him up...sorta thing.

I am not always right.. and yer hardly "mighty"... aside from that.. pretty much dead on..

I said I dont suffer fools gladly. If I were you I wouldnt lable myself a Fool...

I didn't. I have never called you a name.

lables and Words are quite powerful, and I'd hate for you to become a fool through self talk.

No need to worry about me.. none at all.

Glad you find me funny, wish I could say the same about you.

Broaden your horizons... step out of your comfort zone... stuff like that.. you will see what I mean... Or better still.. try and see the undertones of Watchmen.. or even better.. Read the graphic novel.. Try reading On A Pale Horse...

Jonlion
01-15-2010, 10:03 AM
In Luke 13:1-5, Jesus spoke about the spiritual significance of two tragic occurrences that happened during His years walking the earth (they were the "breaking news" stories of the time):

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

So, tragedies are not a time for us to be thinking, "What did they do wrong to deserve this?" They are a time for us to be examining our own hearts.

I was trying to think about this one!

Thank you Nate!

No matter how we die, peacefully or in tragic accident we must be concerned with our own souls

alethou_theou
01-15-2010, 11:41 AM
Anybody believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights?

Something to think about.

I absolutely believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights. I also believe that you are wrong in implying that God is punishing Haiti like he punished us in the Old Testament with the flood. I heard someone else say that God punished Lousiana's Godlessness when it was hit with Hurricane Katrina. To this, I have to offer you two words.

Noahic Covenant.

On second thought, let's make that three.

Rainbow.

For anyone who didn't get that, the verses you need to look up are in Genesis 9.

Someone also questioned how long I've been living in California: I've been living in California to realize that I live in a largely Godless state where people have turned sexuality and materialism into their personal idols. I see myself surrounded by individuals who would go up in arms to protect their right to murder the innocents before they even would see the light of day. I see believers laughed at and mocked as superstitious, old, and backwards. I see a people that has disowned their creator God. I see that China, Korea, Thailand, and Australia are sending missionaries to California to try to speak Gods truth to a people who are deaf and blind to he who is the Logos. I've had the distinct honor of being given the opportunity to serve as a missionary overseas - and I've found that the Godlessness within our own shores often surpasses the Godlessness of the "unreached" nations.

Homeslice, quit talking about how God is punishing a wicked nation like you are without sin. Pray for the ways that you daily trespass against the very God you claim to serve just as you should be praying for the salvation of your brothers in Haiti. Pray for the people who's lives have been broken and maimed by the destruction - that they would be able cling to the hope that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Freaking pharisees.

Neezar
01-15-2010, 12:01 PM
In Luke 13:1-5, Jesus spoke about the spiritual significance of two tragic occurrences that happened during His years walking the earth (they were the "breaking news" stories of the time):

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

So, tragedies are not a time for us to be thinking, "What did they do wrong to deserve this?" They are a time for us to be examining our own hearts.

:cool:

County Mike
01-15-2010, 12:16 PM
I absolutely believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights. I also believe that you are wrong in implying that God is punishing Haiti like he punished us in the Old Testament with the flood. I heard someone else say that God punished Lousiana's Godlessness when it was hit with Hurricane Katrina.

Homeslice, quit talking about how God is punishing a wicked nation like you are without sin. Pray for the ways that you daily trespass against the very God you claim to serve just as you should be praying for the salvation of your brothers in Haiti. Pray for the people who's lives have been broken and maimed by the destruction - that they would be able cling to the hope that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Freaking pharisees.

Never said he was punishing the people of Haiti. I only said it could be true. Also never claimed to be without sin. That would be a far stretch. Also would agree that God's wrath on American soil probably wouldn't be unwarranted either.

Haven't heard the word "homeslice" in a long time. Thanks for bringing it back. Fond memories of my younger days.

Neezar
01-15-2010, 12:18 PM
Never said he was punishing the people of Haiti. I only said it could be true. Also never claimed to be without sin. That would be a far stretch. Also would agree that God's wrath on American soil probably wouldn't be unwarranted either.

Haven't heard the word "homeslice" in a long time. Thanks for bringing it back. Fond memories of my younger days.

:laugh: I totally missed the "homeslice" thing.

Vizion
01-15-2010, 12:19 PM
Haven't heard the word "homeslice" in a long time. Thanks for bringing it back. Fond memories of my younger days.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

CAVEMAN
01-15-2010, 03:43 PM
It seems Pat Robertson is at it again. Says the people in Hati made a oact with the devil and are reaping that now. :sad:

God is not the author of misery. He is the God of love and well being. He is judge that is for sure. But he is not so petty as this.

Pat is a little misguided. AND sometimes he needs to keep his trap shut.:laugh:

Vizion
01-15-2010, 04:56 PM
Pat was implying that the whole "oath with the devil" thing was part of the reason Haiti is so fcked up. And he is right.

Maglorius
01-15-2010, 04:59 PM
A question that needs to be asked here is that do we still experience Gods Active Wrath as they did in the Old Testament or since Jesus crucifixion do we experience Gods passive wrath until Jesus second coming.

God is sovereign and though he may not directly cause things to happen he allows them to happen. Nothing can happen outside of Gods will. With the amount of Christian aid and help in Haiti, I have a hard time believing this was an active wrath judgement on the country.

This is a ministry run out of the city I am from.

http://lifelinehaiti.com/

Chris F
01-15-2010, 06:09 PM
is haiti a christian nation chris?

There are Christians there but no and neither ar we for that matter

Chris F
01-15-2010, 06:33 PM
Sorry about the marathon reply but I've been a little behind in following this thread....


It not only makes you think Mike but it's an excellent observation!


Absolutely.


I disagree completely. The Earth and all that is in it is God's creation.. Not God. How is God calming a storm rebuking Himself? He's simply commanding His creation. If He can turn it on, can't He turn it off? You have that right of course but are way off. If he was commading then Mark would have said that. In the Greek it is crystal clear this was a rebuke not a command. And through out scripture we see Satan referred to as the prince of the air. Yes it belongs to God, however that does not mean Satan it siting in a lazy boy doing nothing because God owns it. If you have scripture to prove then by all means cite it. Until then you have no leg on which to stand sir.


Absolutely. But it wasn't just rain.. the waters came up from the earth as well...



Excellent point.


I'm not in a place that I would say it is as much as it could be. :wink:


Something about that wording makes me horribly uncomfortable.


First off I want to say, and I mean this absolutely sincerely.. that I appreciate and compliment you in making the distinction that this is your opinion and not fact.

With that being said I do disagree with you completely. To say that God "knew" the earth would flood but didn't cause it is simply ridiculous. Did He "know" the Red/Reed Sea was going to part and just guided the people there or did He part it? Is His power over the sea somehow different than his power over rain? Did He command a pillar of fire to appear or just prepare the people because he knew it would? :huh:
See also the scripture above I quoted for Mike. To say it's rained 40 days since then and the Earth hasn't flooded is foolish. Because it's hasn't since... doesn't mean it didn't then. Am I just misunderstanding you here Chris?You are not reading what i said correctly. And not sure how you can say it has never rained 40days and nights ever again there are some area in South America it rains nearly 280 days a year. To say it is ridiculous without any evidence on your part ot the contrary is rather pointless is it not. God is God and can and does whatever he wants. I full believe God parted the seas and let them fall on the Egyptians that is a strawman Chuck. By your logic every time it rains if per se someone hydroplanes and dies then it must be Gods fault because he made it rain after all. I think you are on a slippery slope with no foundation and are building these stamen in hopes one of them stick.


There is a difference between wanting someone to perish and allowing them to. No argument there whats your point?


How is it going against His nature?


The wages of sin are death are they not? A nation devoted to black magic and voodoo turning their back on Christ.. I don't see that as petty.Then by all means cite the NT source for this view. If this were the case would not CA and NY, and NV all been wiped out long time ago. Is God a respecter of persons he only destroys other people. God is not in the business of killing anyone anymore as a form of judgement. The only example I know of so far is Ananias and Saphira in Acts


God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. What changed at the cross exactly? Do you believe His will changed? God continually and consistently used the elements to bring His judgment upon the people. Why would that change? I often times disagree with you Chris but I almost always see your perspective. In this case I really don't. I must be missing something....He will still judge but he has not changed. His judgement is reserved for the end. By your logic we all should be killed because none of us follow God like we should. SO what changed at the cross what Jesus became or propitiation for sin and took God's wrath upon himself so we should not have to. But we will still be judged either at the Great white throne or Judgement seat of Christ. God is not up htere thinking of bad things to do to people who do not serve Him. You have a very morbid view of God. I also think you just do not what to believe because I said it and you have such a great dislike for me. Just look at the God of the NT he has not changed he just sent Jesus to take it for us

If we pray for and believe God's hand of protection can be upon a nation then why can't His hand of judgment be also? I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive.It can but will he? Why would he want to kill people and send them to hell. Would you elect to euthanized your kids because he was born autistic?

And for the record before the responses come pouring in.. I'm NOT saying this earthquake was God's judgment.. I'm simply saying I believe it could have been. Whether is was or not is beyond my ability to discern.

Good points Chuck. We obviously disagree. Satan steal kills and destroys not sure why you would want to make God out to be like Satan.

Chris F
01-15-2010, 06:38 PM
And GOD is loving. I am not excellent on scipture but does it not say that he is also easily angered yet, very forgiving in the same respect? So could it be that he was angered with Haiti?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Do you have a NT example of God pouring wrath down on the people for judgement (before the end in Revelation of course by which he will pour a whole lot a wrath down) What Satan uses to harm God will then use to build up. Disaster opens people up to the gospel like nothing else. Satan alone was behind this. God allowed it because of their rejection of Him but Satan brought the destruction and God will use it to spread the Truth of the gospel.

Chris F
01-15-2010, 06:39 PM
In Luke 13:1-5, Jesus spoke about the spiritual significance of two tragic occurrences that happened during His years walking the earth (they were the "breaking news" stories of the time):

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

So, tragedies are not a time for us to be thinking, "What did they do wrong to deserve this?" They are a time for us to be examining our own hearts.

Amen!

Chris F
01-15-2010, 06:42 PM
Pat is a little misguided. AND sometimes he needs to keep his trap shut.:laugh:

So very true. It is almost like he gets a kick at tradgey just so he can point fingers

Miss Foxy
01-15-2010, 06:57 PM
I absolutely believe that God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights. I also believe that you are wrong in implying that God is punishing Haiti like he punished us in the Old Testament with the flood. I heard someone else say that God punished Lousiana's Godlessness when it was hit with Hurricane Katrina. To this, I have to offer you two words.

Noahic Covenant.

On second thought, let's make that three.

Rainbow.

For anyone who didn't get that, the verses you need to look up are in Genesis 9.

Someone also questioned how long I've been living in California: I've been living in California to realize that I live in a largely Godless state where people have turned sexuality and materialism into their personal idols. I see myself surrounded by individuals who would go up in arms to protect their right to murder the innocents before they even would see the light of day. I see believers laughed at and mocked as superstitious, old, and backwards. I see a people that has disowned their creator God. I see that China, Korea, Thailand, and Australia are sending missionaries to California to try to speak Gods truth to a people who are deaf and blind to he who is the Logos. I've had the distinct honor of being given the opportunity to serve as a missionary overseas - and I've found that the Godlessness within our own shores often surpasses the Godlessness of the "unreached" nations.

Homeslice, quit talking about how God is punishing a wicked nation like you are without sin. Pray for the ways that you daily trespass against the very God you claim to serve just as you should be praying for the salvation of your brothers in Haiti. Pray for the people who's lives have been broken and maimed by the destruction - that they would be able cling to the hope that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Freaking pharisees.Well get outta Cali then...Your testimony should be really strong in such a God less state....?? Jus' sayin' :unsure-1:

alethou_theou
01-15-2010, 07:31 PM
The Lord encourages me through his word.

Psalms 23:4
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Hebrews 2:14-15

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

Psalm 115:15
15 Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Sister, I'm not afraid of death. While I don't think that God is going to burn up California with fire and brimstone, I am not afraid of the possibility of being caught up in the crossfire. I'm here because God has called me to be a witness in California. I'm here to serve him with my whole heart and to listen to the direction of the still small voice. There's no reason to be scared of anything outside of a Matt Hughes slam and God being disappointed in me.

Also, in regards to the homeslice thing, I wasn't really trying to call you in particular out, I was just attacking the notion of God judging the world in the way that you were suggesting - I've heard so many people that are going up on soapboxes nowadays talking about how God is punishing people that I'm reminded of the Westboro "God Hates Fags" Church (I'm not implying you guys are like them). Ultimately, we're all brothers and sisters in Christ, and even if I disagree with you or were to be upset by the things you say, I have to remind myself that there's a biblical precedent for behavor, as per Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:12-16
12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

If I offended anyone, I apologize. In my own haste to speak God's truth, sometimes I find myself getting in His way. (But I'm glad you appreciated the homeslice reference :))

County Mike
01-15-2010, 07:36 PM
If I offended anyone, I apologize. In my own haste to speak God's truth, sometimes I find myself getting in His way. (But I'm glad you appreciated the homeslice reference :))

No worries on my account. I'm not easily offended. :)

Tyburn
01-15-2010, 07:39 PM
Sister, I'm not afraid of death. While I don't think that God is going to burn up California with fire and brimstone, I am not afraid of the possibility of being caught up in the crossfire. I'm here because God has called me to be a witness in California. I'm here to serve him with my whole heart and to listen to the direction of the still small voice. There's no reason to be scared of anything outside of a Matt Hughes slam and God being disappointed in me.

If I offended anyone, I apologize. In my own haste to speak God's truth, sometimes I find myself getting in His way. (But I'm glad you appreciated the homeslice reference :))


:happydancing: YOU HAVE RETURNED TO US :happydancing:

Miss Foxy
01-15-2010, 08:04 PM
The Lord encourages me through his word.

Psalms 23:4


1 Corinthians 15:50-58


Hebrews 2:14-15


Psalm 115:15


Ephesians 2:10


Sister, I'm not afraid of death. While I don't think that God is going to burn up California with fire and brimstone, I am not afraid of the possibility of being caught up in the crossfire. I'm here because God has called me to be a witness in California. I'm here to serve him with my whole heart and to listen to the direction of the still small voice. There's no reason to be scared of anything outside of a Matt Hughes slam and God being disappointed in me.

Also, in regards to the homeslice thing, I wasn't really trying to call you in particular out, I was just attacking the notion of God judging the world in the way that you were suggesting - I've heard so many people that are going up on soapboxes nowadays talking about how God is punishing people that I'm reminded of the Westboro "God Hates Fags" Church (I'm not implying you guys are like them). Ultimately, we're all brothers and sisters in Christ, and even if I disagree with you or were to be upset by the things you say, I have to remind myself that there's a biblical precedent for behavor, as per Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:12-16


If I offended anyone, I apologize. In my own haste to speak God's truth, sometimes I find myself getting in His way. (But I'm glad you appreciated the homeslice reference :))
You have not offended me.. Until you personally attack me we are cool...:cool:

Robertboxerboy
01-15-2010, 08:40 PM
Do you have a NT example of God pouring wrath down on the people for judgement (before the end in Revelation of course by which he will pour a whole lot a wrath down) What Satan uses to harm God will then use to build up. Disaster opens people up to the gospel like nothing else. Satan alone was behind this. God allowed it because of their rejection of Him but Satan brought the destruction and God will use it to spread the Truth of the gospel.

That makes more sense actually. With the god judging haiti part. But in a way he does use Satan as a strategie, correct?

Maglorius
01-15-2010, 09:49 PM
Some people teach God removed a barrier which allowed the clouds to pour because the verse says it had never rained before that time. I am not sold on that idea. I think of the story as an expression of Gods soveriginty. He knew the Earth was going to be flooded and prepared his people for it. I do not think he caused it. It has rained 40 days and night in a row since and no floods of the magnatiude. God knew trouble was coime and prepared for it. This of course is just my opinion because I cannot say for certain with book chapter and verse. To me its fits God's nature and divinity.


Genesis 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven.
Sounds to me like it was Gods action that brought the flood upon the earth.

The reason it hasn't happened again is because God said it would not.
I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." 12And God said,"This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 13I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." 17God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth."

cubsfan47
01-16-2010, 01:54 PM
I found this over at the NPR site:

Dear Pat Robertson,
I know that you know that all press is good press, so I appreciate the shout-out. And you make God look like a big mean bully who kicks people when they are down, so I'm all over that action.
But when you say that Haiti has made a pact with me, it is totally humiliating. I may be evil incarnate, but I'm no welcher. The way you put it, making a deal with me leaves folks desperate and impoverished.
Sure, in the afterlife, but when I strike bargains with people, they first get something here on earth -- glamour, beauty, talent, wealth, fame, glory, a golden fiddle. Those Haitians have nothing, and I mean nothing. And that was before the earthquake. Haven't you seen "Crossroads"? Or "Damn Yankees"?
If I had a thing going with Haiti, there'd be lots of banks, skyscrapers, SUVs, exclusive night clubs, Botox -- that kind of thing. An 80 percent poverty rate is so not my style. Nothing against it -- I'm just saying: Not how I roll.
You're doing great work, Pat, and I don't want to clip your wings -- just, come on, you're making me look bad. And not the good kind of bad. Keep blaming God. That's working. But leave me out of it, please. Or we may need to renegotiate your own contract.
Best, Satan

cheachea
01-16-2010, 02:32 PM
I know this isn't wrath on a large scale or to alot of people, but there is a NT instance of 2 people dying because they lied to the Holy Spirit in Acts Chp. 5:1-10.

Chris F
01-16-2010, 07:58 PM
That makes more sense actually. With the god judging haiti part. But in a way he does use Satan as a strategie, correct?

Not sure I can go there myself. Cannot see God using Satan. I have seen him use bad things before to achieve his will. The Assyrians in the OT and Cesar in the NT. So does not mean he wouldn't. I think God allowed this to happen and Satan killed many people sealing their fate in Hell. It is trully sad.

Chris F
01-16-2010, 08:04 PM
Genesis 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven.
Sounds to me like it was Gods action that brought the flood upon the earth.

The reason it hasn't happened again is because God said it would not.
I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." 12And God said,"This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 13I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." 17God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth."

Yeah it was something he did just like the fire from heaven on Sodom. But to say he caused the rain that caused the flood is where I am not sold. If you notice the waters came from below as well and since it has rained before for 40 days one cannot say it was simply the rain that caused the flood it was God bringing the waters from all places much like parting the Red Sea. This is all I meant by what I said. Did God do it? Yes in the OT he used all sorts of things natural and unnatural to bring judgement. That is not the debate here. This is simply my reply to a specific question from County Mike. Did God make it rain forth days and night? No it owuld have rained any ways. The floods came from below and other places. So you must stay in the context of the question here.

OMT- He said I Will bring flood waters. In Hebrew that cannot be mistaken as I will bring the rain. It would be improper Grammar then. He brought the waters. The rain was merely a componet that alreay existed.

Chris F
01-16-2010, 08:05 PM
I know this isn't wrath on a large scale or to alot of people, but there is a NT instance of 2 people dying because they lied to the Holy Spirit in Acts Chp. 5:1-10.

Yeah I mentioned that earlier. It was the only example after the cross I could find of God enacting judgement on anyone. But it was not by any disaster it was totally God alone.

billwilliams70
01-16-2010, 11:33 PM
Here's a question that goes along with the whole "has God judged Haiti" theme......if God HAS judged Haiti, where does that put the rest of the world in sending aid? Does that aid, because they're doing it under the pretense of being "good people" (which many people think is a Christainly act) go against God's judgement of Haiti?

I'm not saying that it does or doesn't.....just wondering what everyone's opinions are on this matter......especially you Tyburn. :D

Later.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 01:13 AM
I found this over at the NPR site:

the writer has a point. True Evil looks good. Thats why it is so dangerous. The true enemy is never your opponent on the battlefield, its the friend at your table who betrays you... :ninja:

bradwright
01-17-2010, 02:02 AM
the writer has a point. True Evil looks good. Thats why it is so dangerous. The true enemy is never your opponent on the battlefield, its the friend at your table who betrays you... :ninja:

actually Dave your TRUE ENEMY is yourself....just thought i would point that out.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 02:20 AM
actually Dave your TRUE ENEMY is yourself....just thought i would point that out.

Only if you dont know it. :laugh:

once you know it...you can neautralize its threat.

No the danger doesnt come from an aware self, or a known enemy...it comes from your best friends...always from your best friends...Evil is more about infiltration then direct warfare...because it doesnt want you to even be aware of it....until it is too late.

bradwright
01-17-2010, 02:31 AM
Only if you dont know it. :laugh:

once you know it...you can neautralize its threat.

No the danger doesnt come from an aware self, or a known enemy...it comes from your best friends...always from your best friends...Evil is more about infiltration then direct warfare...because it doesnt want you to even be aware of it....until it is too late.

tell yourself what ever helps you to sleep at night i guess.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 02:49 AM
tell yourself what ever helps you to sleep at night i guess.

Brad...your looking at someone who has gotten to know himself EXTREMELY well in the last ten years

Trust me when I say, I know what my faults are, and I know what damage my mind is capable of doing to my own self. It doesnt scare me. The Mind is a powerful instrument, and if left alone it will run itself...at some point the Spirit has to take charge over the Mind and has to learn how to use it, and how to protect itself from it.

Too often I have been at the mercy of my own Mind because my Spirit has not been strong enough to take charge...and my Mind puts up a REAL fight and has a lot of advantages...like it can psycho-somatically gain control over my body in ways that are VERY distressing to my Spirit...and it has done in the past...and the results have been crippling. BUT it is less so now...FAR less because I am aware of its tricks.

When I feel a panic attack coming I have learned to nip it in the bud...when I start getting old symptoms of anxiety...I am no longer afraid that they might kill me...I am developing the power to ignore my own Minds attempts at sabotaging my Spirit and its potential.

I know more about the mental game then a lot of people...and its precisely because I have struggled with and at times succumbed to things, that I know.

I no longer have much fear about what my Mind can do to me. I do however still have great fear over what my friends can do to me. Enemies...I dont fear them so much because I know I can and will fight them...even if I lose, I know who they are.

I dont like what I dont know...or more aptly who I dont know. Loyalty is REAL important to me. I cant overstate that enough.

Tyburn
01-17-2010, 02:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hIEszE7Pw8

Silva is encouraging people to help in Haiti...he is the second I know to have made a video broadcast...the other was Mackens Semizier he actually has extended family out on the Island. :unsure-1: