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Vizion
01-07-2010, 01:23 PM
That is, what does the Bible say on this? Should women be pastors, or should we adopt a Modern-day Politically correct approach in the church so as to satisfy our human arrogance?? :laugh:

billwilliams70
01-07-2010, 03:02 PM
Wow! You're really hittin' a touchy subject aren't 'ya?

Later.

Vizion
01-07-2010, 03:25 PM
Wow! You're really hittin' a touchy subject aren't 'ya?

Later.
You mean, a PC subject? Am I supposed to be scared, or something :blink::laugh:

billwilliams70
01-07-2010, 03:36 PM
You mean, a PC subject? Am I supposed to be scared, or something :blink::laugh:
No, not scared....not in any way, shape, or form should you be scared.......of what by the way?

Here's the Got Questions answer:

http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html

The GQ bottom line:
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching men or having spiritual authority over them. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors/preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.


Later.

rearnakedchoke
01-07-2010, 03:50 PM
I'd say sure ... Women in the church can and should have the ability to teach congregations re: the bible if they have the proper knowledge and understanding of bible.

Llamafighter
01-07-2010, 04:17 PM
This thread Mark started a while back, handles this issue pretty thoroughly.

http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216

Chris F
01-07-2010, 05:20 PM
This has alreay been beaten to death on here. Better to just go read that thread then to open new wounds. :)

What it boils down to is ones persoanl opinions because everyone reads only what they want to on subjects like this.

adamt
01-07-2010, 08:37 PM
This has alreay been beaten to death on here. Better to just go read that thread then to open new wounds. :)

What it boils down to is ones persoanl opinions because everyone reads only what they want to on subjects like this.


wow.....personal opinions.... i didn't know you were a relativist....

sounds like what abortionists say

Mark
01-07-2010, 09:55 PM
That is, what does the Bible say on this? Should women be pastors, or should we adopt a Modern-day Politically correct approach in the church so as to satisfy our human arrogance?? :laugh:

No.

Miss Foxy
01-07-2010, 10:04 PM
This thread Mark started a while back, handles this issue pretty thoroughly.

http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216
Exactly!! Here we go again.. All aboard!!

NateR
01-07-2010, 10:54 PM
Should women be pastors

Only three weeks out of every month.

MattHughesRocks
01-07-2010, 10:56 PM
Was that supposed to be a joke? :unsure-1:

Only three weeks out of every month.

que
01-07-2010, 11:12 PM
no, women should be in the kitchen.

NateR
01-08-2010, 12:27 AM
Was that supposed to be a joke? :unsure-1:

Yes, obviously not a good one. :rolleyes:

Anyways, I believe the Bible is pretty clear that the answer would be no.

1 Corinthians 11:3:
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Vizion
01-08-2010, 12:32 AM
no, women should be in the kitchen. sexist pig :laugh:

Vizion
01-08-2010, 12:37 AM
Only three weeks out of every month. Ha Ha Ha ! True 'dat! :laugh:

J.B.
01-08-2010, 12:47 AM
Only three weeks out of every month.

/thread

:laugh:

Chuck
01-08-2010, 01:17 AM
Only three weeks out of every month.
Now that's funny stuff right there!!!

Yes, obviously not a good one. :rolleyes:

Anyways, I believe the Bible is pretty clear that the answer would be no.

1 Corinthians 11:3:
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Nah Nate it's far from that simple. It's possible with a little twisting you could make the claim that a woman shouldn't be a Senior Pastor but that verse is no where near cut and dry.

MattHughesRocks
01-08-2010, 01:21 AM
Well everyone else seemed to LOL.Care to explain it so that I can LOL? Or be mad at you?


Yes, obviously not a good one. :rolleyes:

.

MattHughesRocks
01-08-2010, 01:23 AM
Oh wait never mind...I just got it.Youre right! It was a bad one :laugh:

Chris F
01-08-2010, 04:30 AM
wow.....personal opinions.... i didn't know you were a relativist....

sounds like what abortionists say

Not at all. Just that last time people ignored book chapter and verse and believed what their tradiotion taught them and not what the bible taught. So no sense beating ones head into the wall trying to get them to see fact as facts. :laugh:

Mark
01-09-2010, 01:49 PM
This has alreay been beaten to death on here. Better to just go read that thread then to open new wounds. :)

What it boils down to is ones persoanl opinions because everyone reads only what they want to on subjects like this.

What is your personal opinion?

rearnakedchoke
01-09-2010, 01:58 PM
Let me ask this question for those who believe women shouldn't be pastors ... if a Christian were to attend a church where the pastor was a women, or that a Christian had a women as their spiritual leader, do you think they would be saved, make it to Heaven?

Neezar
01-09-2010, 05:26 PM
Let me ask this question for those who believe women shouldn't be pastors ... if a Christian were to attend a church where the pastor was a women, or that a Christian had a women as their spiritual leader, do you think they would be saved, make it to Heaven?

Yes.


Just curious....What role do you believe that a pastor plays in your personal salvation?

Mark
01-09-2010, 05:30 PM
Let me ask this question for those who believe women shouldn't be pastors ... if a Christian were to attend a church where the pastor was a women, or that a Christian had a women as their spiritual leader, do you think they would be saved, make it to Heaven?

You dont need a man ar women to be saved. Who is to be the spiritual leader in the your house?

Chris F
01-09-2010, 06:09 PM
What is your personal opinion?

My personal opinion is no they should not

Chris F
01-09-2010, 06:12 PM
Let me ask this question for those who believe women shouldn't be pastors ... if a Christian were to attend a church where the pastor was a women, or that a Christian had a women as their spiritual leader, do you think they would be saved, make it to Heaven?

Only 2 % of all salvations take place in the church walls. The church's primary job is to train and equip the sainits for the work of ministry not to be the avenue of salvation. That would be more of the office of the evangelist. See Ephesians for more detail

rearnakedchoke
01-09-2010, 06:56 PM
Yes.


Just curious....What role do you believe that a pastor plays in your personal salvation?

well, that is sort of my point ... what is the big deal in the grand scheme of things if a lady is a pastor and is able to help others come closer to God?

rearnakedchoke
01-09-2010, 06:58 PM
You dont need a man ar women to be saved. Who is to be the spiritual leader in the your house?

i am as my wife is not Christian and I teach my children about God ...whether or not I am doing a good job, well that is another story ...

Mark
01-10-2010, 12:19 AM
1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

que
01-10-2010, 01:06 AM
sexist pig :laugh:

i'm not sexist but i do like my women to cook me pig. mmmm bacon.

Chuck
01-10-2010, 03:04 AM
1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

OK... so we have the verse Mark... now put it into context.. all Scripture has 1 interpretation and multiple aplications.

Who is the author?
Who is the audience?
When was it written?
What was the culture of the people it was written to?


If you take this verse in it's literal context to justify not having female pastors then you must also extend it to every other vocation.

No female school teachers.
No female in any management or supervisory position.
No female police officers.
No female enlisted in the armed forces.

And the women being "silent" part??? Brother that's a whole different can of worms to open!!!! :D

NateR
01-10-2010, 03:17 AM
No female school teachers.

Well, public schools are a fairly modern institution. However, a woman teaching a male child and a woman teaching an adult male would be two different things.

No female in any management or supervisory position.
No female police officers.
No female enlisted in the armed forces.

Ah, what a perfect world that would be. :laugh:

While I did know some women who served in the Armed Forces, I definitely don't think that they should be allowed to be Officers (outside of Nurses), nor do I believe that they should be in combat or leadership roles.

And the women being "silent" part??? Brother that's a whole different can of worms to open!!!! :D

Exactly the point, why do you think that GOD had to put it in the Bible? :Whistle:

MattHughesRocks
01-10-2010, 03:19 AM
:scared0011:

:faint:


1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 04:38 AM
However, a woman teaching a male child and a woman teaching an adult male would be two different things.



There's a difference? :huh:

:laugh:

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 04:44 AM
1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

If Adam did not sin also, why did God punish him too?

Also, isn't it men's failure to be the "spiritual" leaders or any kind of leader for that matter in a lot of families/homes that has created this ? to begin with. :wink:

MattHughesRocks
01-10-2010, 05:01 AM
Preach it sister!

Also, isn't it men's failure to be the "spiritual" leaders or any kind of leader for that matter in a lot of families/homes that has created this ? to begin with. :wink:

NateR
01-10-2010, 05:14 AM
If Adam did not sin also, why did God punish him too?

Also, isn't it men's failure to be the "spiritual" leaders or any kind of leader for that matter in a lot of families/homes that has created this ? to begin with. :wink:

Well Adam did sin by eating the fruit when Eve offered it to him; but his greater failure was not interceding and putting a stop to Satan's temptation of Eve. The Bible says that he was with her when the serpent was questioning her; but he did nothing. So it's understood that sin entered the world through one man, not one woman.

I've never really understood why Adam didn't step in while Eve was talking with Satan. It's not like there was a football game on TV to distract him, so what could he have possibly been doing?

MattHughesRocks
01-10-2010, 05:20 AM
He was just being his submissive, unmanly self I'd guess.Too bad God hadnt had the roles reversed.Eve, she just took over and did her own thing.

Well Adam did sin by eating the fruit when Eve offered it to him; but his greater failure was not interceding and putting a stop to Satan's temptation of Eve. The Bible says that he was with her when the serpent was questioning her; but he did nothing. So it's understood that sin entered the world through one man, not one woman.

I've never really understood why Adam didn't step in while Eve was talking with Satan. It's not like there was a football game on TV to distract him, so what could he have possibly been doing?

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 05:24 AM
Preach it sister!

I just get the impression that some of the guys here are somehow blaming women for having to step up to fill that "vacant" role of "leader" in their households which in turn (I feel) has led women to want leadership roles elsewhere in society. :wink:

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 05:32 AM
He was just being his submissive, unmanly self I'd guess.Too bad God hadnt had the roles reversed.Eve, she just took over and did her own thing.

This is probably where the term "man-up" originated from. :wink:

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 05:53 AM
Well Adam did sin by eating the fruit when Eve offered it to him; but his greater failure was not interceding and putting a stop to Satan's temptation of Eve. The Bible says that he was with her when the serpent was questioning her; but he did nothing. So it's understood that sin entered the world through one man, not one woman.

I've never really understood why Adam didn't step in while Eve was talking with Satan. It's not like there was a football game on TV to distract him, so what could he have possibly been doing?

I've often thought of Adam and Eve and how they mucked everything up for the rest of us. I mean, they lived in PARADISE for pete's sake. All they had to do was mind that one little thing GOD forbade them, but NO, they just couldn't help themselves! It all started there.... :wink:

By the way, Nate, I was just having some fun with you in my previous post about "....difference?" :laugh: Your comment was just too good to pass up and I took some license with it--for us women. Most women (especially married women) know there is no separating men and their inner child. Makes it hard for us women to tell the difference sometimes. :laugh:

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 10:57 AM
That is, what does the Bible say on this? Should women be pastors, or should we adopt a Modern-day Politically correct approach in the church so as to satisfy our human arrogance?? :laugh:

Not all Women, no. :laugh:

Some Women make better Priests then Men :ninja:

The Bible does name Women who are incharge of Churches, several of them I think mentioned in Saint Paul's letters.

One thought is that where there is no adequet Male, there must be a female who is able to step up.

The Leadership part of the priesthood is obviously best suited to men, but the pastoral side of priesthood is obviously best suited to women. The teaching side is pretty much equally split...afterall even if you say you think the womens place is firmly in the home...what exactly is it that you think a Mother does with her children if it isnt actually constant reinforcement of behaviour and practical provision. In many ways...as far as the children are concerned it is their Mother who teaches and provides for them...the Father is simply a figure head, a breadwinner for the family...but somewhat...aloof from the family itself. Either way you look at it, the Women have all the skills, they proove this with child rearing.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 11:00 AM
Only three weeks out of every month.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

True Dat

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 11:14 AM
Who is to be the spiritual leader in the your house?

I live alone.

In my Household...my Mother has ALWAYS been dominant. He will do anything for Her. She is incharge of my family. She always has been. She could cope without Him, but i'm not sure the same could be said vice versa. He really only has eyes for Her. Luckily for Her, he is a strong J and thus he can actually ensure that things happen in the house because she is a strong P and thats counterproductive to forward motion :laugh:

She is hard, She is strong, She is Wise, but she lacks an ability to show or express much emotion, partly because her Mother was terribly emotional, and part because she has recovered fully from depression without the aid of drugs. Dont go to Mother if you are looking for sympathy :laugh: She is the sort of person who would say to the very young kid who comes through to the lounge in the middle of the night complaining they cant sleep or dont feel very well, "well you arent going to get to sleep standing about here are you? You dont need to come and tell me you feel ill, go back to bed, lie still, and shut your eyes " :laugh: :laugh:

If I had to choose who i'd rather be like. I'd far rather be like my Mother then my Father. :) There is very little about my Father that I'd want to immitate. Its not that he's a bad person, but he actually has no strong qualities if that makes sense, he's a bit bland. He's not what I would think of as being strong, and although he is exceptionally intelligent, he cant always show it, he struggles I think to keep up during deep conversations sometimes. He is however a good public speaker..but then, so am I, and so is Mother.

cheachea
01-10-2010, 11:35 AM
My answer is no, BUT woman can teach other woman in the church. There were prophetesses in the bible but they were not pastor teachers or priests though.

Neezar
01-10-2010, 03:22 PM
There's a difference? :huh:

:laugh:

If Adam did not sin also, why did God punish him too?

Also, isn't it men's failure to be the "spiritual" leaders or any kind of leader for that matter in a lot of families/homes that has created this ? to begin with. :wink:

I just get the impression that some of the guys here are somehow blaming women for having to step up to fill that "vacant" role of "leader" in their households which in turn (I feel) has led women to want leadership roles elsewhere in society. :wink:


What she said. :cool:

NateR
01-10-2010, 04:15 PM
My answer is no, BUT woman can teach other woman in the church. There were prophetesses in the bible but they were not pastor teachers or priests though.

There were also female judges in ancient Israel. However, a judge was more of a political (and sometimes military) role. The priests in the Temple at the time of a female judge would still have been all male.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 04:59 PM
There were also female judges in ancient Israel. However, a judge was more of a political (and sometimes military) role. The priests in the Temple at the time of a female judge would still have been all male.

Yes. Deborah for example. I think she was the third Judge of the Nation, the first to reconcile really all three areas, political, spiritual, and Military under the same role :)

rockdawg21
01-10-2010, 05:20 PM
If women were pastors, there'd be less molesting of little boys as usually the boys would consent to it with a woman.

Chris F
01-10-2010, 05:38 PM
My answer is no, BUT woman can teach other woman in the church. There were prophetesses in the bible but they were not pastor teachers or priests though.

There were 3 listed in scripture. And some deaconesses as well. See the other thread for all the biblical evidence.

NateR
01-10-2010, 06:18 PM
There were 3 listed in scripture. And some deaconesses as well. See the other thread for all the biblical evidence.

I remember those NT examples you listed, however, I'm still not convinced at all that the scripture was describing them as leaders. Hostesses and home owners, maybe. Preachers and churches leaders? No, I see no scriptural evidence of that, just some questionable interpretations.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 06:21 PM
If women were pastors, there'd be less molesting of little boys as usually the boys would consent to it with a woman.

:scared0015: thats NOT even funny :angry:

:laugh:

Mark
01-10-2010, 06:22 PM
OK... so we have the verse Mark... now put it into context.. all Scripture has 1 interpretation and multiple aplications.

Who is the author? Paul
Who is the audience? Timothy
When was it written? Paul was in prison, before he was killed.
What was the culture of the people it was written to? Paul gave Timothy more instructions on how to lead a church


If you take this verse in it's literal context to justify not having female pastors then you must also extend it to every other vocation.

No female school teachers. I am talking about church.
No female in any management or supervisory position. right
No female police officers. right
No female enlisted in the armed forces. Absolutely right.

And the women being "silent" part??? Brother that's a whole different can of worms to open!!!! :D

I voted for Sara Palin for president, because she was a christian, had christian values. I dont know why a christian would vote for Obama?

Mark
01-10-2010, 06:24 PM
I remember those NT examples you listed, however, I'm still not convinced at all that the scripture was describing them as leaders. Hostesses and home owners, maybe. Preachers and churches leaders? No, I see no scriptural evidence of that, just some questionable interpretations.

I agree. Women were not even allowed in the temple.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 06:27 PM
I voted for Sara Palin for president, because she was a christian, had chtistian values. I dont know why a christian would vote for Obama?

I didnt know Sara ran for President...I thought she ran for Vice President :blink: Correct me if I'm wrong :mellow:

Pastor Chris is right about the implications of taking that verse litterally. I have to stress I dont think its ideal to push Women into ministry at all...but where there is no Male to lead...and as the Scriptures do mention women in positions of power high enough to warrent personal mention in letters...

NateR
01-10-2010, 06:30 PM
I voted for Sara Palin for president, because she was a christian, had christian values. I dont know why a christian would vote for Obama?

She's the only reason I voted for McCain as well.:cool:

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 06:32 PM
She's the only reason I voted for McCain as well.:cool:

You mean if McCain had chosen another deputy...you'd have voted for Obama??

or not voted at all :huh:

Mark
01-10-2010, 06:34 PM
I live alone.

In my Household...my Mother has ALWAYS been dominant. He will do anything for Her. She is incharge of my family. She always has been. She could cope without Him, but i'm not sure the same could be said vice versa. He really only has eyes for Her. Luckily for Her, he is a strong J and thus he can actually ensure that things happen in the house because she is a strong P and thats counterproductive to forward motion :laugh:

She is hard, She is strong, She is Wise, but she lacks an ability to show or express much emotion, partly because her Mother was terribly emotional, and part because she has recovered fully from depression without the aid of drugs. Dont go to Mother if you are looking for sympathy :laugh: She is the sort of person who would say to the very young kid who comes through to the lounge in the middle of the night complaining they cant sleep or dont feel very well, "well you arent going to get to sleep standing about here are you? You dont need to come and tell me you feel ill, go back to bed, lie still, and shut your eyes " :laugh: :laugh:

If I had to choose who i'd rather be like. I'd far rather be like my Mother then my Father. :) There is very little about my Father that I'd want to immitate. Its not that he's a bad person, but he actually has no strong qualities if that makes sense, he's a bit bland. He's not what I would think of as being strong, and although he is exceptionally intelligent, he cant always show it, he struggles I think to keep up during deep conversations sometimes. He is however a good public speaker..but then, so am I, and so is Mother.

Just because that is how you were raised doesnt make it right in the Bible. Was your mom and dad a christian? Did they read the Bible?

Mark
01-10-2010, 06:35 PM
You mean if McCain had chosen another deputy...you'd have voted for Obama??

or not voted at all :huh:

I would evaluate the situation and went from there.

NateR
01-10-2010, 06:46 PM
I live alone.

In my Household...my Mother has ALWAYS been dominant. He will do anything for Her. She is incharge of my family. She always has been. She could cope without Him, but i'm not sure the same could be said vice versa. He really only has eyes for Her. Luckily for Her, he is a strong J and thus he can actually ensure that things happen in the house because she is a strong P and thats counterproductive to forward motion :laugh:

She is hard, She is strong, She is Wise, but she lacks an ability to show or express much emotion, partly because her Mother was terribly emotional, and part because she has recovered fully from depression without the aid of drugs. Dont go to Mother if you are looking for sympathy :laugh: She is the sort of person who would say to the very young kid who comes through to the lounge in the middle of the night complaining they cant sleep or dont feel very well, "well you arent going to get to sleep standing about here are you? You dont need to come and tell me you feel ill, go back to bed, lie still, and shut your eyes " :laugh: :laugh:

If I had to choose who i'd rather be like. I'd far rather be like my Mother then my Father. :) There is very little about my Father that I'd want to immitate. Its not that he's a bad person, but he actually has no strong qualities if that makes sense, he's a bit bland. He's not what I would think of as being strong, and although he is exceptionally intelligent, he cant always show it, he struggles I think to keep up during deep conversations sometimes. He is however a good public speaker..but then, so am I, and so is Mother.

So, you believe this was a healthy upbringing? What's your sexual orientation again? :huh:

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 06:59 PM
So, you believe this was a healthy upbringing? What's your sexual orientation again? :huh:

Nathan Rosario! That "logic" has about one toe to stand on!:laugh:

I guess with that thinking, my sisters and I should all be lesbians since we had no father figure. :wink:

So....was it his father's fault for being weak or his mom's for being strong?

However, there do seem to be quite a few men murderers and serial killers who come from that type of homelife. Dave? :scared0011:

Mark
01-10-2010, 07:04 PM
Nathan Rosario! That "logic" has about one toe to stand on!:laugh:

I guess with that thinking, my sisters and I should all be lesbians since we had no father figure. :wink:

So....was it his father's fault for being weak or his mom's for being strong?

However, there do seem to be quite a few men murderers and serial killers who come from that type of homelife. Dave? :scared0011:

There is a difference with no father and a submissive father.

NateR
01-10-2010, 07:07 PM
Nathan Rosario! That "logic" has about one toe to stand on!:laugh:

I guess with that thinking, my sisters and I should all be lesbians since we had no father figure. :wink:

So....was it his father's fault for being weak or his mom's for being strong?

However, there do seem to be quite a few men murderers and serial killers who come from that type of homelife. Dave? :scared0011:

My point is that Dave is not exactly a shining example of a healthy upbringing. :rolleyes:

NateR
01-10-2010, 07:08 PM
There is a difference with no father and a submissive father.

Yes, definitely, a submissive father does much more damage to a child's mental health than a non-existent father.

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 07:10 PM
There is a difference with no father and a submissive father.

Maybe I should have used Dave's two sisters as the example.

No father = No Show
Submissive father = Might as well be a No Show

Bonnie
01-10-2010, 07:36 PM
Yes, definitely, a submissive father does much more damage to a child's mental health than a non-existent father.

Neither scenario instills positive ideas/feelings about what a father is, does, or should be in the child. Both can create longlasting negative consequences.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 09:47 PM
Just because that is how you were raised doesnt make it right in the Bible. Was your mom and dad a christian? Did they read the Bible?

They were both Converts, who enabled Christ to deliver the whole family in fact.

I dont know much about my Fathers journey to Faith, only that by the time he was at University both he and his Mother were Christians. His Father died when he was frightfully young, and his Step Brothers were all the same age as his Mother (who was his Fathers Second Wife) To the best of my knowledge they all became Christians also. (Well No idea about David Sr, David Jr definately see Technically, as you Americans would put it, I am infact David Duff the Third but as Sr was dead long before my Birth and me and Jr never had much contact, and no that he is dead, it doesnt matter really does it :laugh:)

My Mother became a Brethren. She and her Sister converted under that denomination. Its known for its knowledge of Scripture...Mother had whole sections of the Bible committed to Memory...its very odd...We once went to Knaresborough and there is a big Church with a clock, and the clock has a little plaque underneith it talking about watching for the hours are evil, or something...Mother read it...and then continued to read from memory the whole chapter that came after it. :blink: She was deeply involved in Prayer Ministry. She went home and curtly told her Parents they would be going to Hell :laugh: My Nan converted not too long after that, but my Grandad, he didnt convert for many years. He didnt convert til after I was born, but went on to become an extremely strong Christian indeed when he had a dramatic conversion whilst visiting Lincoln Cathedral.

Mother and Father met at York University at the same time a Revival movement was going on in the city, founded on the sure ministry of some guy called Watson, who has since died of Cancer hailing from Saint Michael Le Belfrey Church...a bit of a Billy Graham type character, if you've ever heard of him. Father ran for President of the Christian Union...but he didnt get ellected. They both had moved to Charismatic Evangelicalism on the low side of the Anglican Spectrum by this point.

After leaving University Mother had Depression. I dont know why, I have a feeling its to do with the Church or the Prayer Ministry she was deeply involved in. She wont speak about it. Occasionally Mother will get dreams, by Dreams I mean visions...thats something I only learned about VERY recently. Father on the other hand became Ordained as a Priest in the Anglican Church in the Early 1990s, but he decided to remain in full time work, which means he doesnt have his own Church, he is assigned to a local church to help out, they call them "Ministers in Secular Employment"

Mothers Sister married a Baptist Preacher who is now an Area Coordinator (thats like the mission statement of a Bishop for that denomination)

Mother had three Children that were bought up Christian...of which Two probably are, and one probably is not. Being bought up presents difficulties, because we dont have "conversion" experiences...there is no moment at which we can say we definately are...there is no before time....I cant remember a time when I wasnt a Christian...I had my doubts, went through patches of disbelief to an extent...but ive been brought up Christian.

Father cant help that he isnt strong. Its not his fault. all his "brothers" were as old as his parents, and what he remembers of his Father is an old wheelchair bound guy who died very early on in his childhood. He is what he's become and he cant change that. He also had feelings, even if he wont show them, I know because he will share them with Mother, and occasionally she will share them with me. I know that he was deeply hurt by the way i've turned out, I also know that he carries guilt for it, somewhere in him he feels like he has failed because of me. It doesnt help when freudian style psychologists tell him he was too "vanilla" when I was younger. You have to understand, he was always present when I was growing up, he was never abusive, he was never absent....but he has made very little impact on me because he is so...neutral I guess...He just has no comment, no charisma...and he only truely loves Her. You cant choose your Children...but you DO choose your Wife.

You know over the last year we have met up once a month for just an hour alone to sit in a pub and drink. Its the first time he has done something alone with me that Mother hasnt asked him to do...we tried this before...He used to come round once every two weeks...until I discovered it was because Mother had told him too, and he was only prepared to do it because and when, she had anothr engagement which would have left him alone in the house. So I told him not to bother. But this past year, he's done it because he wanted to, and he's had to leave her knowing he could be spending time with her instead. That is progress for him...and its slow, but at least he's trying...

Neezar
01-10-2010, 09:56 PM
My point is that Dave is not exactly a shining example of a healthy upbringing. :rolleyes:

My father was there. Always there. If submissive is on one end of the spectrum then my father was definitely at the other end. There wasn't and isn't one submissive bone in his body. And still, I am not a shining example, nor even a good example, of a healthy upbringing. :unsure-1:



:laugh:

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 09:59 PM
So, you believe this was a healthy upbringing? What's your sexual orientation again? :huh:

No upbriging is perfect...but it wasnt bad. I had a Father and a Mother who didnt devorce each other, noone in my family suffered physical abuse at the hands of another within the family, I wasnt an only child left on my own all the time. My family were not particularly poor, we had a detached house with a large Garden for 18 years of my life in a reasonable city. I had as top a notch education as the area provided, I was bought up with a firm sense of right and wrong, reasonable intelligence, a good immune system, a very high physical pain threshold indeed. Our Grandparents lived in the same city...both sets, so the whole family was around me.

It was a loving, stable, family upbringing....as healthy as the majority of people in this world I'll wager...no I wasnt brought up like Royalty...but I wasnt raised in a slum neither.

My Sisters shared the same upbrigining...and both of them have come out not only unscathed. If the upbringing was unhealthy...why am I the only one to have been so obviously hard done by it. :huh:

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 10:00 PM
My father was there. Always there. If submissive is on one end of the spectrum then my father was definitely at the other end. There wasn't and isn't one submissive bone in his body. And still, I am not a shining example, nor even a good example, of a healthy upbringing. :unsure-1:



:laugh:

But its alright Denise...because your not a Homosexual :rolleyes: I on the other hand am obviously a product of a terrible upbringing :rolleyes:

:laugh:

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 10:02 PM
However, there do seem to be quite a few men murderers and serial killers who come from that type of homelife. Dave? :scared0011:

:ninja: Careful...your address was written on the box you sent me last week :ninja:

:laugh: I Kid, I Kid....(about wanting to Kill you...I still want to visit you though :ashamed: )

NateR
01-10-2010, 10:15 PM
But its alright Denise...because your not a Homosexual :rolleyes: I on the other hand am obviously a product of a terrible upbringing :rolleyes:

:laugh:

The only reason for the harshness of my comments is that NO ONE can use their family as a basis for interpreting scripture, which is what you seemed to be doing. You basically were saying, "Well my mom wasn't submissive, so this must mean that you have to interpret these verses to mean something else." You were doing what you always do, making it all about yourself. The Greek women weren't submissive either, which is why they had to be commanded to be submissive.

I grew up in a very traditional family where my dad was the authoritative head of the household and my mom never really challenged that authority. However, I would never use my family as a basis for Biblical interpretation, since there were plenty of things that made us disfunctional (just like every other family is disfunctional in some way or another).

The way GOD intended for things to work and how they actually work on this earth are two completely different things. It still doesn't change the fact that GOD's Way is the best way.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 10:22 PM
The way GOD intended for things to work and how they actually work on this earth are two completely different things. It still doesn't change the fact that GOD's Way is the best way.


Next time perhaps THAT is all you should say Mr Rosario.

Like we've asscertained. The Truth is the Scriptures tend towards exclusivity for Men, but also mention Women who are in positions of authority...something you try to play down as "hostesses" to fit in with your interpretation.

AND...the other Truth is...like Pastor Chris points out, you dont mind applying this scriptural passage to the Church and the Home...but ive yet to see you condemn women in the work place, or women teachers at school or anything like that.

NateR
01-10-2010, 10:40 PM
..but ive yet to see you condemn women in the work place, or women teachers at school or anything like that.

Because it's not relevant to the topic or to the verses quoted.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 10:45 PM
Because it's not relevant to the topic or to the verses quoted.

As Pastor Chris pointed out...it absolutely is.

If Women are not to have authority over men...that doesnt just include the house and the Church

If Women are not to teach men, that would thus also include Schools.

The main passage that is used to base the anti-womens ministry is applicable across the board.

1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Now...either she does have authority over men...in which case she may become a priest, or she does not, in which case she should not teach men in a school.

Which is it going to be Nate :huh:

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 10:47 PM
Sorry...it was Chucks point, not Pastor Chris :ashamed:

NateR
01-10-2010, 10:59 PM
As Pastor Chris pointed out...it absolutely is.

If Women are not to have authority over men...that doesnt just include the house and the Church

If Women are not to teach men, that would thus also include Schools.

The main passage that is used to base the anti-womens ministry is applicable across the board.

1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Now...either she does have authority over men...in which case she may become a priest, or she does not, in which case she should not teach men in a school.

Which is it going to be Nate :huh:

Your logic is faulty, the books of Timothy were written by Paul to Timothy to give him GODly advice for leading the Church. Thus, it doesn't apply to the secular world.

Chuck
01-10-2010, 11:06 PM
Your logic is faulty, the books of Timothy were written by Paul to Timothy to give him GODly advice for leading the Church. Thus, it doesn't apply to the secular world.

But how do you discern is that is a scripture meant for that church during that time period or a mandate for the entire body of Christ?

It seems to me that using that scripture to justify keeping women out of ministry today is taking it completely out of context.

Not to mention.. even IF taken in the context you and Mark are inferring it STILL wouldn't keep women out of ministry. That verse wouldn't keep a church from having a woman's pastor for example who's job was to simply over see the woman's ministries.

Tyburn
01-10-2010, 11:18 PM
Your logic is faulty, the books of Timothy were written by Paul to Timothy to give him GODly advice for leading the Church. Thus, it doesn't apply to the secular world.

Well if it doesnt apply to the secular world, then it doesnt apply to the home does it.

No Nathan...you are picking and choosing what to apply it to...when it just gives a simple rule for Women period.

I think that your interpretation (without pick and chosing what you do) basically says that this is Womens role in society as a whole...the reasons why it is to be employed in the church and the home is the same reason it should be applied to everything. Women sinned first.

NateR
01-11-2010, 12:04 AM
Well if it doesnt apply to the secular world, then it doesnt apply to the home does it.

:huh: That makes no sense. You are claiming that Christians are NOT held to a higher standard than unbelievers?

I'm really having a tough time grasping the logic behind your argument.

NateR
01-11-2010, 12:16 AM
But how do you discern is that is a scripture meant for that church during that time period or a mandate for the entire body of Christ?

It seems to me that using that scripture to justify keeping women out of ministry today is taking it completely out of context.

Not to mention.. even IF taken in the context you and Mark are inferring it STILL wouldn't keep women out of ministry. That verse wouldn't keep a church from having a woman's pastor for example who's job was to simply over see the woman's ministries.

Well, if it was just that scripture then you might have a point. However, there was never a time where women were allowed to be priests in ancient Israel. They weren't even allowed to enter the Temple.

So, it's not just interpreting that one verse in a vacuum, it's interpreting that one verse in context with the rest of the Bible.

Besides, I've never claimed that women shouldn't be allowed to participate in ministry. Only that they shouldn't be in positions of authority over men (again, there is a difference between a full grown man and a male child, so I have no problems with women leading children's ministries).

Tyburn
01-11-2010, 12:27 AM
:huh: That makes no sense. You are claiming that Christians are NOT held to a higher standard than unbelievers?

I'm really having a tough time grasping the logic behind your argument.

No You said Paul was giving GODly advice to Tim on how to run a CHURCH (your counter being that it excluded giving advise on what was not church, i.e secular insitutions)

I pointed out that it if you are going to say its GODly advice for running a Church and preclude it as advice to anything else, you cant apply it to ANYTHING else...like for example..Family.

You just pick and choose what you apply it to.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 12:29 AM
Well, if it was just that scripture then you might have a point. However, there was never a time where women were allowed to be priests in ancient Israel. They weren't even allowed to enter the Temple.

So, it's not just interpreting that one verse in a vacuum, it's interpreting that one verse in context with the rest of the Bible.

Besides, I've never claimed that women shouldn't be allowed to participate in ministry. Only that they shouldn't be in positions of authority over men (again, there is a difference between a full grown man and a male child, so I have no problems with women leading children's ministries).

But wouldn't the lack of women as priests in ancient Israel be more of a cultural thing than a mandate for the rest of time? Something that would apply to their culture at that point in history as opposed to an example for us all.


With regards to the other point... I think I'm following you....

So are you saying....

A woman as a Woman's Pastor or Children's Pastor is ok but you would be opposed to a woman as a Senior Pastor or a pastor in authority over men?

Bonnie
01-11-2010, 12:47 AM
Well, if it was just that scripture then you might have a point. However, there was never a time where women were allowed to be priests in ancient Israel. They weren't even allowed to enter the Temple.

So, it's not just interpreting that one verse in a vacuum, it's interpreting that one verse in context with the rest of the Bible.

Besides, I've never claimed that women shouldn't be allowed to participate in ministry. Only that they shouldn't be in positions of authority over men (again, there is a difference between a full grown man and a male child, so I have no problems with women leading children's ministries).

You would want women teaching and shaping the minds of young boys? Wouldn't this ultimately be counter to what you and Mark quote Paul was saying to Timothy? At what age do they go from the woman teacher to just men and how do you unteach what they learned at the hands of a woman?

Also, Nate, could you just state plainly exactly where a woman's place is, period--according to GOD. From what you and Mark have already quoted, she is not to lead in the church or at home.

Exactly, what is a woman to do in this day and age with so many men leaving them holding the bag so to speak?

que
01-11-2010, 12:55 AM
But wouldn't the lack of women as priests in ancient Israel be more of a cultural thing than a mandate for the rest of time? Something that would apply to their culture at that point in history as opposed to an example for us all.


With regards to the other point... I think I'm following you....

So are you saying....

A woman as a Woman's Pastor or Children's Pastor is ok but you would be opposed to a woman as a Senior Pastor or a pastor in authority over men?

the only thing above man is God

Bonnie
01-11-2010, 12:56 AM
:ninja: Careful...your address was written on the box you sent me last week :ninja:

:laugh: I Kid, I Kid....(about wanting to Kill you...I still want to visit you though :ashamed: )

:laugh:

Well, hopefully they'll have those full body scanners in place by the time you visit me. :tongue0011:

Bonnie
01-11-2010, 01:02 AM
the only thing above man is God

Well....there's pigeons. :wink:

:laugh:

Mark
01-11-2010, 01:07 AM
Why dont Bonnie, Chuck and Dave quote some scripture for women being pastors and elders and being the head of the house!!

Vizion
01-11-2010, 01:30 AM
Why dont Bonnie, Chuck and Dave quote some scripture for women being pastors and elders and being the head of the house!! Yes, I would like to see them rather than have to read "opinions" on the matter.

Not that they exist to be provided, or anything :wink:

Bonnie
01-11-2010, 01:32 AM
The way GOD intended for things to work and how they actually work on this earth are two completely different things. It still doesn't change the fact that GOD's Way is the best way.

This, Mark. How do we get these "...two...different things" to become what it should be--GOD's way?

My ?s to Nathan were not said with sarcasm, but genuinely. As women how do we do what GOD wants us to do, if man is not doing what he is supposed to be doing? Like Nate said, given how things actually are down here.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 01:35 AM
Why dont Bonnie, Chuck and Dave quote some scripture for women being pastors and elders and being the head of the house!!

What stance have I actually taken on any of those subjects Mark? :huh:

Do you know where I stand? I mean you ARE paying attention aren't you??

NateR
01-11-2010, 01:37 AM
So are you saying....

A woman as a Woman's Pastor or Children's Pastor is ok but you would be opposed to a woman as a Senior Pastor or a pastor in authority over men?

Exactly.

Mark
01-11-2010, 01:40 AM
Not to mention.. even IF taken in the context you and Mark are inferring it STILL wouldn't keep women out of ministry. That verse wouldn't keep a church from having a woman's pastor for example who's job was to simply over see the woman's ministries.

Read what I put. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. That doesnt say anything about teaching other women.

Mark
01-11-2010, 01:44 AM
This, Mark. How do we get these "...two...different things" to become what it should be--GOD's way?

My ?s to Nathan were not said with sarcasm, but genuinely. As women how do we do what GOD wants us to do, if man is not doing what he is supposed to be doing? Like Nate said, given how things actually are down here.

My reply to that is what the Bible says to do.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 01:45 AM
Yes, I would like to see them rather than have to read "opinions" on the matter.

Not that they exist to be provided, or anything :wink:

All anybody has given in this thread is opinions... either a personal opinion or their opinion of how a scripture should be interpreted.

Either way it's an opinion.

Mark
01-11-2010, 01:48 AM
What stance have I actually taken on any of those subjects Mark? :huh:

Do you know where I stand? I mean you ARE paying attention aren't you??

no not really, Just give me scripture on what you do believe.

NateR
01-11-2010, 01:51 AM
You would want women teaching and shaping the minds of young boys? Wouldn't this ultimately be counter to what you and Mark quote Paul was saying to Timothy? At what age do they go from the woman teacher to just men and how do you unteach what they learned at the hands of a woman?

Also, Nate, could you just state plainly exactly where a woman's place is, period--according to GOD. From what you and Mark have already quoted, she is not to lead in the church or at home.

Exactly, what is a woman to do in this day and age with so many men leaving them holding the bag so to speak?

We can learn about a woman's role in the church by studying the Old Testament.

Women could study the law and teach it to their children:
Proverbs 1:8
Listen, my son, to your father's instruction
and do not forsake your mother's teaching.

Deuteronomy 31:12
Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the LORD your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.

Nehemiah 8:2
So on the first day of the seventh month Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand.

They could communicate directly with GOD, just like men:
1 Samuel 1:10
In bitterness of soul Hannah wept much and prayed to the LORD.

Genesis 25:22
The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.

Genesis 30:6
Then Rachel said, "God has vindicated me; he has listened to my plea and given me a son." Because of this she named him Dan.

Genesis 30:22
Then God remembered Rachel; he listened to her and opened her womb.

Genesis 21: 6-7
Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me." And she added, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age."

Women ministered at the entrance of the Temple:
1 Samuel 2:22
Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

Women also participated in the musical and prophetic ministry:
Ezra 2:64-65
The whole company numbered 42,360, besides their 7,337 menservants and maidservants; and they also had 200 men and women singers.

1 Chronicles 25: 5-6
All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his horn. For God gave Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.
All these were under the direction of their father for the music in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, stringed instruments, and harps, for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the authority of the king.

Judges 4: 4-7
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. Then she sent and called for Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali, and said to him, “Has not the LORD God of Israel commanded, ‘Go and deploy troops at Mount Tabor; take with you ten thousand men of the sons of Naphtali and of the sons of Zebulun; and against you I will deploy Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude at the River Kishon; and I will deliver him into your hand’?”

2 Kings 22:14
So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. (She dwelt in Jerusalem in the Second Quarter.) And they spoke with her.

So, women have a role in the church and just because it is different from mens' role doesn't make it lesser.

Vizion
01-11-2010, 01:52 AM
All anybody has given in this thread is opinions... either a personal opinion or their opinion of how a scripture should be interpreted.

Either way it's an opinion. I let NateR do the dirty work for me - hehehe

Mark
01-11-2010, 01:57 AM
All anybody has given in this thread is opinions... either a personal opinion or their opinion of how a scripture should be interpreted.

Either way it's an opinion.

OK Chuck!

Chuck
01-11-2010, 02:02 AM
Read what I put. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. That doesnt say anything about teaching other women.

So you believe that this one scripture, written by Paul in a letter to Timothy should be taken as a mandate for all of us?

What about context Mark? Timothy was a new church leader dealing with struggles in his own church. How do you decide what to take out of the Bible and apply to today and what was for that specific period in history?


1Ti 2:8-10 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

These are the 3 verses before the verse you and Nate are using...

So tell me Mark...

When you pray do you lift up your hands?
None of the women in your house are allowed to braid their hair right?
Certainly no gold or pearls in your house right?
And definitely no costly clothing for your wife right??

We can't pick and choose the parts of scripture we like and ignore the parts we don't.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 02:03 AM
I let NateR do the dirty work for me - hehehe

You're not the only one :D

Boomer
01-11-2010, 02:05 AM
no

Mark
01-11-2010, 02:06 AM
Chuck I wanted some scripture!

Chuck
01-11-2010, 02:13 AM
So you believe that this one scripture, written by Paul in a letter to Timothy should be taken as a mandate for all of us?

What about context Mark? Timothy was a new church leader dealing with struggles in his own church. How do you decide what to take out of the Bible and apply to today and what was for that specific period in history?



These are the 3 verses before the verse you and Nate are using...

1Ti 2:8-10 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.


So tell me Mark...

When you pray do you lift up your hands?
None of the women in your house are allowed to braid their hair right?
Certainly no gold or pearls in your house right?
And definitely no costly clothing for your wife right??

We can't pick and choose the parts of scripture we like and ignore the parts we don't.

Chuck I wanted some scripture!

There is scripture right there... and a few questions for you. :wink:

Mark
01-11-2010, 02:17 AM
So you believe that this one scripture, written by Paul in a letter to Timothy should be taken as a mandate for all of us?

What about context Mark? Timothy was a new church leader dealing with struggles in his own church. How do you decide what to take out of the Bible and apply to today and what was for that specific period in history?



These are the 3 verses before the verse you and Nate are using...

So tell me Mark...

When you pray do you lift up your hands? NO
None of the women in your house are allowed to braid their hair right? Yes
Certainly no gold or pearls in your house right? No gold or pearls at my house.
And definitely no costly clothing for your wife right?? NO

We can't pick and choose the parts of scripture we like and ignore the parts we don't. Now what do you believe? Do you have any scripture to prove a or your point?

Mark
01-11-2010, 02:18 AM
If you want me to tell u all my sins that will take all night!

Boomer
01-11-2010, 02:31 AM
If you want me to tell u all my sins that will take all night!

Start with the jucie ones .. hold on im making popcorn .... :w00t:

Matts#1Fan...Dr.Tonya
01-11-2010, 02:34 AM
No....women should not be pastors.
We are to be quiet and submissive.
Men are the spiritual leaders of the family.

Bonnie
01-11-2010, 02:38 AM
We can learn about a woman's role in the church by studying the Old Testament.

So, women have a role in the church and just because it is different from mens' role doesn't make it lesser.

Thank you for posting those, Nate. I'll be doing some study'n. :)

Mark
01-11-2010, 02:43 AM
Start with the jucie ones .. hold on im making popcorn .... :w00t:

I will start with today, I didnt observe the sabboth. I went outside and moved some tractors to get ready to move grain out.

Mark
01-11-2010, 02:49 AM
Chuck Chuck does anyone know wher Chuck went? I dont see him anymore! Did he go get a Bible or go buy one.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 02:50 AM
Now what do you believe? Do you have any scripture to prove a or your point?

As far as women being Pastors? I think it's fine as long as they're not a Senior Pastor. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable attending a church with a woman as a Senior Pastor but I'm not at a place that I could call it a sin or inappropriate. I just don't think there is enough conclusive Scripture to prove that point.

If you want me to tell u all my sins that will take all night!

It's not about sin brother it's about context. If you're going to use 1Tim to support your belief regarding women in ministry than we have to consider ALL of 1Tim and not just that one verse.

So do you and your household follow the other things I listed?:huh:

Chuck
01-11-2010, 02:52 AM
Chuck Chuck does anyone know wher Chuck went? I dont see him anymore! Did he go get a Bible or go buy one.

LOL... Actually we were just doing our family devotion..

we talked about YOU Mark... and the importance of context!! :D

Boomer
01-11-2010, 02:53 AM
I will start with today, I didnt observe the sabboth. I went outside and moved some tractors to get ready to move grain out.

ohhhhhh dirty ...... :w00t: (even though Biblical sabbath is Saturday) still .... dirty .. :mischievous: :mischievous:

well since you are being so open and honest ... I did braid my hair today. :cry:

Mac
01-11-2010, 02:57 AM
ohhhhhh dirty ...... :w00t: (even though Biblical sabbath is Saturday) still .... dirty .. :mischievous: :mischievous:

well since you are being so open and honest ... I did braid my hair today. :cry:

I killed a coyote with a sledge hammer

Mark
01-11-2010, 02:57 AM
As far as women being Pastors? I think it's fine as long as they're not a Senior Pastor. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable attending a church with a woman as a Senior Pastor but I'm not at a place that I could call it a sin or inappropriate. I just don't think there is enough conclusive Scripture to prove that point.



It's not about sin brother it's about context. If you're going to use 1Tim to support your belief regarding women in ministry than we have to consider ALL of 1Tim and not just that one verse.

So do you and your household follow the other things I listed?:huh:

Chuck I can get more scripture. I would not attend a church that Had a woman pastor. If you would fine I dont care. You can call me out on sin if you want but I dont think you are perfect.

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:00 AM
I killed a coyote with a sledge hammer

:huh: seriously ... :huh: did you get it on video?

Mac
01-11-2010, 03:01 AM
:huh: seriously ... :huh: did you get it on video?

lol , i sent you the video . must not have gotten it.

Bonnie
01-11-2010, 03:01 AM
I killed a coyote with a sledge hammer

Thanks for not posting any pictures.....this time. :laugh:

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:03 AM
Chuck I can get more scripture. I would not attend a church that Had a woman pastor. If you would fine I dont care. You can call me out on sin if you want but I dont think you are perfect.

He's not calling you out on sin ... those passages are instruction on modesty .. not law on specific actions. Those were illustrations of the time.

:rolleyes: didnt we already have a 2000 hit thread on this? :huh:

Mark
01-11-2010, 03:04 AM
ohhhhhh dirty ...... :w00t: (even though Biblical sabbath is Saturday) still .... dirty .. :mischievous: :mischievous:

well since you are being so open and honest ... I did braid my hair today. :cry:

Sunday is the day I try observe the sabbath.

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:06 AM
Sunday is the day I try observe the sabbath.

Good on yea buddy. I've been breaking that one since forever. Rest is not something I do very well ... but then I get to melt down mode and understand why God put it in there. :laugh:

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:10 AM
lol , i sent you the video . must not have gotten it.

nope .. but I have noticed that the 3 other times someone sent me vids on my iphone they ALWAY arrived the next day. I bet I get it tomorrow sometime. :laugh:

Chuck
01-11-2010, 03:12 AM
Chuck I can get more scripture. I would not attend a church that Had a woman pastor. If you would fine I dont care. You can call me out on sin if you want but I dont think you are perfect.

Brother I'm not calling you out on anything... I was just asking you a question..

In Paul's letter to Timothy he stated many things... I was simply asking you if you believed and followed all of what was in that letter or just the part about women being in positions of authority?

No judgment, no calling you out.... just a question. :wink:

MattHughesRocks
01-11-2010, 03:14 AM
Yes but you know how men are.They have to drag everything out forever :blink:

He's not calling you out on sin ... those passages are instruction on modesty .. not law on specific actions. Those were illustrations of the time.

:rolleyes: didnt we already have a 2000 hit thread on this? :huh:

Chuck
01-11-2010, 03:16 AM
Yes but you know how men are.They have to drag everything out forever :blink:

Why don't you go be silent and submissive somewhere????


Now go make me a samich!!!

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:16 AM
Yes but you know how men are.They have to drag everything out forever :blink:

No men talk about it until its resolved ... women talk about it for a week than bring it back up three years later when they want to manipulate a situation or justify an irrational action they just did ....

go braid your hair ...

MattHughesRocks
01-11-2010, 03:35 AM
I like how the men get so offended when they are wrong and don't want to admit it:laugh:

And for the record, I've never met a man that can submit me Chuck :wink:

Why don't you go be silent and submissive somewhere????


Now go make me a samich!!!

MattHughesRocks
01-11-2010, 03:36 AM
Ooooh...and here we go again...see what I mean? :blink:

:laugh:

Now go out and buy me a present :rolleyes:

No men talk about it until its resolved ... women talk about it for a week than bring it back up three years later when they want to manipulate a situation or justify an irrational action they just did ....

go braid your hair ...

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:38 AM
Ooooh...and here we go again...see what I mean? :blink:

:laugh:

Now go out and buy me a present :rolleyes:

ok

Bonnie
01-11-2010, 03:39 AM
No men talk about it until its resolved ... women talk about it for a week than bring it back up three years later when they want to manipulate a situation or justify an irrational action they just did ....

go braid your hair ...

:laugh: That's why we'd make good generals. We're good at strategy and long-range thinkers. We save our amno 'cause we know you guys are going to provide us with a perfect opening to use it.....again. :laugh:

Btw, our actions are always "rational" to us. :tongue0011:

que
01-11-2010, 03:43 AM
i like my women like i like my coffee brewer

hot and in the kitchen

MattHughesRocks
01-11-2010, 03:43 AM
I heart Boomer! :laugh:

ok

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:56 AM
i like my women like i like my coffee brewer

hot and in the kitchen

:laugh: :laugh:

I like mine like butter!! Soft and delicious!!

MattHughesRocks
01-11-2010, 03:58 AM
Ok so this thread went from the toilet to the sewer real quick :laugh:

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:59 AM
Ok so this thread went from the toilet to the sewer real quick :laugh:

So stop posting in it ...

MattHughesRocks
01-11-2010, 04:11 AM
Go to bed.

So stop posting in it ...

que
01-11-2010, 05:57 AM
:laugh: :laugh:

I like mine like butter!! Soft and delicious!!

good one boom *high five*

Vizion
01-11-2010, 11:59 AM
Hey!

:sign0006:

:sign0094:

Go and take your silliness to another thread! :laugh:

Llamafighter
01-11-2010, 12:37 PM
I killed a coyote with a sledge hammer

Thanks Mac, I just effing spit coffee out...:laugh:

Tyburn
01-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Yes but you know how men are.They have to drag everything out forever :blink:

Shhhh your supposed to be submissive :angry:

:laugh: YEAH RIGHT :laugh:

adamt
01-11-2010, 02:15 PM
I will start with today, I didnt observe the sabboth. I went outside and moved some tractors to get ready to move grain out.

so anywhere in the new testament tell us to observe the sabbath? not being judgemental towards you, just posing a question,


i try to be a christian everyday, not just sunday....

and while i don't believe saturday is the sabbath, i do "start my day" in the evening, as in sabbath starts like 6:00 saturday night..... God always said stuff like, "the evenuing and the morning were the first day"

So I start my day by devotions, but I start my day at 6 or 8 at night then i sleep...

all the ten commandments were reiterated in the NT but the sabbath one...

Mark
01-11-2010, 02:38 PM
All anybody has given in this thread is opinions... either a personal opinion or their opinion of how a scripture should be interpreted.

Either way it's an opinion.
Genesis 3:16 (NASB)
16 To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

1 Corinthians 11:3 (NASB)
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Ephesians 5:22–33 (NASB)
22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

1 Corinthians 11:8–9 (NASB)
8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.

1 Timothy 3:2 (NASB)
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1 Timothy 3:4–5 (NASB)
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

1 Timothy 3:8 (NASB)
8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

Titus 1:5–6 (NASB)
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

Titus 1:9 (NASB)
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

I hope this helps with your opinion. If you reply would you have some scripture. Thanks.:wink:

NateR
01-11-2010, 03:02 PM
so anywhere in the new testament tell us to observe the sabbath?

Was there anything in the New Testament that said it was okay to ignore the Bible?

Remember that when Jesus walked the earth there was no New Testament written. It wasn't until decades after Jesus' Resurrection that the NT books started to be written down. So EVERY reference in the New Testament about following Scripture and the Bible being "god-breathed" is a reference to the Old Testament and only the Old Testament.

We apply it to the New Testament today, but that's not what the NT writers were talking about. They were strictly referring to the Old Testament.

And the Sabbath is from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown in ancient Israel. Sabbath is simply Hebrew for "seven" and the seventh day of the week for Jews started on Friday night and ended on Saturday morning.

If you choose to observe it from Saturday to Sunday, that is fine. However, the fact that the "Biblical Sabbath" is from Friday to Saturday is not just a matter of opinion.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 03:09 PM
Genesis 3:16 (NASB)
16 To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

1 Corinthians 11:3 (NASB)
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Ephesians 5:22–33 (NASB)
22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

1 Corinthians 11:8–9 (NASB)
8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.

1 Timothy 3:2 (NASB)
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1 Timothy 3:4–5 (NASB)
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

1 Timothy 3:8 (NASB)
8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

Titus 1:5–6 (NASB)
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

Titus 1:9 (NASB)
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

I hope this helps with your opinion. If you reply would you have some scripture. Thanks.:wink:

Well it certainly strengthens one of my opinions but that's another story all together..

Prov 10:19 When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise. :wink:

Boomer
01-11-2010, 03:18 PM
Well it certainly strengthens one of my opinions but that's another story all together..

Prov 10:19 When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise. :wink:

You seriously think that Proverbs 10:19 applies here or are you just being an ass? That is talking about the words of men Chuck. Marks post was 98% quotes from the Bible.

The implication of his opinion on this being "sinful" because he listed the references in the Bible he used to form his belief shows Spiritual immaturity on your part. Not his.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 03:24 PM
You seriously think that Proverbs 10:19 applies here or are you just being an ass? That is talking about the words of men Chuck. Marks post was 98% quotes from the Bible.

The implication of his opinion on this being "sinful" because he listed the references in the Bible he used to form his belief shows Spiritual immaturity on your part. Not his.

Is Mark completely unable to speak for himself???? :huh:

There is NO implication on Mark at all Matt...

The verse in proverbs simply says the more you talk the more likely you are to sin... it wasn't directed at Mark, it was directed at me. Rather than post a long, wordy reply I simply chose to say virtually nothing. 1 sentence and a scripture...

Relax, quit jumping to conclusions... maybe ask for clarification???:)

NateR
01-11-2010, 03:25 PM
You seriously think that Proverbs 10:19 applies here or are you just being an ass? That is talking about the words of men Chuck. Marks post was 98% quotes from the Bible.

The implication of his opinion on this being "sinful" because he listed the references in the Bible he used to form his belief shows Spiritual immaturity on your part. Not his.

Sounds to me like Chuck just ran out of anything intelligent to contribute to this thread; so he's grasping for straws and trying to save face by passing judgment Mark.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 03:27 PM
Sounds to me like Chuck just ran out of anything intelligent to contribute to this thread; so he's grasping for straws and trying to save face by passing judgment Mark.

Ridiculous.

Grow up Nate. I never passed judgment on anyone and you know it. The cavalry has arrived to save the day for Mark just like always but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Why don't you think before you post?

NateR
01-11-2010, 03:37 PM
Ridiculous.

Grow up Nate. I never passed judgment on anyone and you know it. The cavalry has arrived to save the day for Mark just like always but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Why don't you think before you post?

Yeah, I didn't think that you were referring to yourself with that scripture quote; but now that I think about it, it totally fits... for both of us. :)

Sorry about that.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 03:44 PM
Yeah, I didn't think that you were referring to yourself with that scripture quote; but now that I think about it, it totally fits... for both of us. :)

Sorry about that.

Well don't be all nice to me NOW!!! Ya got me all fired up!!! :D :D

And remember I sent the PM you just received BEFORE you typed this! :Whistle:

Llamafighter
01-11-2010, 04:05 PM
No men talk about it until its resolved ... women talk about it for a week than bring it back up three years later when they want to manipulate a situation or justify an irrational action they just did ....

go braid your hair ...

YES!
are you sure you're not married?

Llamafighter
01-11-2010, 09:39 PM
question (100% serious): If a woman can be chosen by God to carry his son into the world and give birth to him, then how could a woman be denied the ability to bring his words and teachings into the world?

if this has been touched on early I apologize. it was a lot of pages to go back over:)

Tyburn
01-11-2010, 09:51 PM
question (100% serious): If a woman can be chosen by God to carry his son into the world and give birth to him, then how could a woman be denied the ability to bring his words and teachings into the world?

if this has been touched on early I apologize. it was a lot of pages to go back over:)

Her Role was Submissive to GOD as the personification of the Male in that instance.

"let it be for me as you have said"

What I cant fathom, is why it would be alright for Women to child rear young males, to teach them to speak, to read, to write, to teach them right and wrong, to discipline them...to basically raise a family, possibly completely of men....

...but then once they come of age...not to be allowed to teach them...isnt the damage already done by then??

Why also is it allright for Women to teach other Women...if they cant be trusted to teach the men, why is it alright for them to spread whatever contrary teaching the church tries to keep away from the adult population...to the women...should it not be that strictly ONLY men should teach...and that Women must not be allowed to teach the young...nor to teach other women.

Thats why this whole thing doesnt make any sense. Well...actually, I suspect we are missing a cultural norm of the time which would help us see WHY this is being said and help us understand the reasoning behind it....GOD usually has good logical and obvious reasoning...it should be obvious why its not good for Women to teach Men 13+ but its okay for them to teach Men 13-

Also...its the picky choosey aspect of this with the dominant males on this forum that just strikes me as being daft...Yeah they apply it to a male dominanted Church which is in dire need of PASTORAL Care which they cant give...Pastral Care is best coming from a Women...its a Femanine Quality...Remarks towards me in this thread should already show you that its beyond certain Males to be able to give the pastoral support even in a debate....They cant show understanding for anyone elses views, they have an aggrivated way of trying to express their views, which they can only seem to do by demeaning those who speak differently..but they are too frightened to actually apply enmass their interpretation to anything but what suites them.

Thats why debates like this get nowhere.

Chuck
01-11-2010, 10:31 PM
I suspect we are missing a cultural norm of the time which would help us see WHY this is being said and help us understand the reasoning behind it....GOD usually has good logical and obvious reasoning...

Excellent point Dave.

Mark
01-11-2010, 11:22 PM
Also...its the picky choosey aspect of this with the dominant males on this forum that just strikes me as being daft...Yeah they apply it to a male dominanted Church which is in dire need of PASTORAL Care which they cant give...Pastral Care is best coming from a Women...its a Femanine Quality...Remarks towards me in this thread should already show you that its beyond certain Males to be able to give the pastoral support even in a debate....They cant show understanding for anyone elses views, they have an aggrivated way of trying to express their views, which they can only seem to do by demeaning those who speak differently..but they are too frightened to actually apply enmass their interpretation to anything but what suites them.

Thats why debates like this get nowhere.

Dave I dont think we will ever agree on this. I think Church should be lead by strong Christian men not strong Christian women. Are there any women in leadership at the Church you attend?

NateR
01-11-2010, 11:24 PM
question (100% serious): If a woman can be chosen by God to carry his son into the world and give birth to him, then how could a woman be denied the ability to bring his words and teachings into the world?

The answer is easy, they are not.

All we are arguing about is women in positions of leadership in the church, not women in ministry. Two different things.

For instance, I might say that I have no problem with women serving in the military, HOWEVER I do not agree that they should be able to attain high levels of leadership. For instance, a female sergeant running a supply office is a very different thing from a female officer commanding a special forces unit in a combat zone. I would support the former, but not the latter.

Women have a very important role to perform in the Church; but not as pastors.

Mark
01-11-2010, 11:32 PM
The answer is easy, they are not.

All we are arguing about is women in positions of leadership in the church, not women in ministry. Two different things.

For instance, I might say that I have no problem with women serving in the military, HOWEVER I do not agree that they should be able to attain high levels of leadership. For instance, a female sergeant running a supply office is a very different thing from a female officer commanding a special forces unit in a combat zone. I would support the former, but not the latter.

Women have a very important role to perform in the Church; but not as pastors.

Its not like we think they are good just for reproduction only.

Tyburn
01-12-2010, 12:01 AM
Are there any women in leadership at the Church you attend?

Nope. There are no Women Ministers at ChristChurch on The Stray. :laugh:

There were no Women in Saint Georges Church Lincoln where I was Brought up. There was a Woman as the Methodist Chaplain at Univeristy, but thats slightly different from running a church. There is a Woman at my Fathers Church but I dont know her.

Saint Paul's Cathedral Lay Community however was founded by a Woman Priest who was the person who appointed me into the Community. By the time I had finished there were Two Women as Minor Canons, and One as a Full Canon on Chapter, and one as a Lay Canon, who wasnt ordained but could somehow still preach. :blink: out of Eleven Clergy, Four were Women :)


Do you think that men are capable of giving the pastoral care needed in leading a church though?

Llamafighter
01-12-2010, 12:03 AM
The answer is easy, they are not.

All we are arguing about is women in positions of leadership in the church, not women in ministry. Two different things.

For instance, I might say that I have no problem with women serving in the military, HOWEVER I do not agree that they should be able to attain high levels of leadership. For instance, a female sergeant running a supply office is a very different thing from a female officer commanding a special forces unit in a combat zone. I would support the former, but not the latter.

Women have a very important role to perform in the Church; but not as pastors.
I understand. Thanks for clarifying.

Its not like we think they are good just for reproduction only.
Not what I thought you meant.

Tyburn
01-12-2010, 12:05 AM
The answer is easy, they are not.

All we are arguing about is women in positions of leadership in the church, not women in ministry. Two different things.

For instance, I might say that I have no problem with women serving in the military, HOWEVER I do not agree that they should be able to attain high levels of leadership. For instance, a female sergeant running a supply office is a very different thing from a female officer commanding a special forces unit in a combat zone. I would support the former, but not the latter.

Women have a very important role to perform in the Church; but not as pastors.

In other words. So long as they arent important. This is about Status isnt it. Even in the Military, its about Status....you claim that they are just different...but then why are you demeaning them to things of lesser importance, lower status.

Why should a woman be content to run a supply office? Why should she aspire to greater things? Thats not Different from a combat commander, its LESSER.

Different can mean Equal...so you tell me an EQUAL role she could be. I bet you cant.

What "important role" do Women have to perform in the church...making up numbers doesnt count as an important role Rosario :laugh:

MattHughesRocks
01-12-2010, 01:46 AM
Yeah, there's cooking and cleaning to :)

Its not like we think they are good just for reproduction only.

Neezar
01-12-2010, 03:52 AM
Her Role was Submissive to GOD as the personification of the Male in that instance.

"let it be for me as you have said"

What I cant fathom, is why it would be alright for Women to child rear young males, to teach them to speak, to read, to write, to teach them right and wrong, to discipline them...to basically raise a family, possibly completely of men....

...but then once they come of age...not to be allowed to teach them...isnt the damage already done by then??

Why also is it allright for Women to teach other Women...if they cant be trusted to teach the men, why is it alright for them to spread whatever contrary teaching the church tries to keep away from the adult population...to the women...should it not be that strictly ONLY men should teach...and that Women must not be allowed to teach the young...nor to teach other women.

Thats why this whole thing doesnt make any sense. Well...actually, I suspect we are missing a cultural norm of the time which would help us see WHY this is being said and help us understand the reasoning behind it....GOD usually has good logical and obvious reasoning...it should be obvious why its not good for Women to teach Men 13+ but its okay for them to teach Men 13-

Thats why debates like this get nowhere.

I think you are missing the point, Dave. It is not about the "damage already done". The women aren't doing damage when they teach. It is not about whether or not they can be trusted to teach. Or whether they are teaching contrary things to the church. It IS all about status. It is the natural order of things. It is already in our culture. A woman can't teach a man how to be a man. She may instruct him on what she believes to be the right thing but.... well, don't most learn better by example. Frankly, I wouldn't want a woman teaching my husband or boys how to be a Godly man.



In other words. So long as they arent important. This is about Status isnt it. Even in the Military, its about Status....you claim that they are just different...but then why are you demeaning them to things of lesser importance, lower status.

Why should a woman be content to run a supply office? Why should she aspire to greater things? Thats not Different from a combat commander, its LESSER.

Different can mean Equal...so you tell me an EQUAL role she could be. I bet you cant.

What "important role" do Women have to perform in the church...making up numbers doesnt count as an important role Rosario :laugh:

As I said, Dave. It IS all about status and the natural order of things. And you are the one declaring that role as lesser or demeaning. That doesn't mean that others believe that.

Boomer
01-12-2010, 02:17 PM
Is Mark completely unable to speak for himself???? :huh:

Yea he is able to speak for himself. But if you want a private conversation with him, do it in a PM and not an open post. This seems to be a pattern with you that whenever someone else comments on something you and Mark discuss openly you like to make yourself a victim being "picked on" for not agreeing with Mark Hughes. I guess you are the only one here who has the balls to do that and need to trumpet that every chance you get.

There is NO implication on Mark at all Matt...

You quote a page of scripture and reply with one scripture talking about many words hiding sin and can't see how that can be construed as an implication??? If you wanted it to be about you, don’t quote someone else and put a one liner without an explaination. You quoted him, so your one liner was addressing him.

The verse in proverbs simply says the more you talk the more likely you are to sin... it wasn't directed at Mark, it was directed at me. Rather than post a long, wordy reply I simply chose to say virtually nothing. 1 sentence and a scripture...

Relax, quit jumping to conclusions... maybe ask for clarification???:)

It's what I did. You could have responded .. "No I wasn't being an ass. I meant that at me not at Mark." And it would have been done with. You're the one who seems to be seeing layers of meaning behind something and jumping to conclusions.

NateR
01-12-2010, 03:01 PM
In other words. So long as they arent important. This is about Status isnt it. Even in the Military, its about Status....you claim that they are just different...but then why are you demeaning them to things of lesser importance, lower status.

Why should a woman be content to run a supply office? Why should she aspire to greater things? Thats not Different from a combat commander, its LESSER.

Different can mean Equal...so you tell me an EQUAL role she could be. I bet you cant.

What "important role" do Women have to perform in the church...making up numbers doesnt count as an important role Rosario :laugh:

It's not about status, it's about the hierarchy that GOD established in the Bible. If you don't like it, then complain to GOD, not to me.

Any man or woman who is only concerned with "importance" and "status," should NEVER be allowed into a position of leadership in the Church. Never. Satan craves those things and you don't want to put Satan in charge of your congregation, do you?

Chuck
01-12-2010, 03:49 PM
It's what I did.
Not quite... :wink:

Do you seriously think that's what you did or are you just being a douchbag? (Sound like clarification to you?)


You could have responded .. "No I wasn't being an ass. I meant that at me not at Mark." And it would have been done with.

I did exactly that. Almost word for word.
There is NO implication on Mark at all Matt...

The verse in proverbs simply says the more you talk the more likely you are to sin... it wasn't directed at Mark, it was directed at me.


You're the one who seems to be seeing layers of meaning behind something and jumping to conclusions.

Funny I thought you were the one who jumped to the conclusion I was talking about Mark? Weren't you the one who saw some "layers of meaning" behind my post that revealed my "Spiritual maturity" (Nice judgment by the way :wink:)

The irony here is almost too much to handle! :laugh:


The only "victim" mentality here is yours and everybody who portrays Mark that way when anybody questions him. No believer will ever grow if they're coddled and protected all the time. We all need to be challenged in our faith. We need to have our beliefs and theological positions held to the flames to make sure our doctrine is sound. Keep people from that, even those you care about, and you're only hurting them.

Tyburn
01-12-2010, 04:36 PM
I think you are missing the point, Dave. It is not about the "damage already done". The women aren't doing damage when they teach. It is not about whether or not they can be trusted to teach. Or whether they are teaching contrary things to the church. It IS all about status. It is the natural order of things. It is already in our culture. A woman can't teach a man how to be a man. She may instruct him on what she believes to be the right thing but.... well, don't most learn better by example. Frankly, I wouldn't want a woman teaching my husband or boys how to be a Godly man.





As I said, Dave. It IS all about status and the natural order of things. And you are the one declaring that role as lesser or demeaning. That doesn't mean that others believe that.

You know what I think. I think its because Women can do Mens roles, but Men cant do Womens roles. Therefore you must dissallow Women the option of doing Mens roles...because if you allow it, and too many take up the offer, the Men will be unable to fill the void

The Void which is not important...but is essential. Those are two different things you'll note. The void of hands on nurturing, the void of administration within the household, the void of pastoral care...which the Men (Vocals of this Forum certainly...) just cant do. It is a shyte job...but someone has to do it...and as the men are not actually able to on the whole...then the women must. Part of the problem in a Spiritual sense is that all the women will spend forever picking up the mess the Men have created, as they go through smashing people down with strong and manly rebukes, with upsetting people left, right and centre

...and here is something else. Calling yourself a Servant doesnt make you one if you Lead. Adam was the head of the House that fell...that is why HE Leads and She Serves...and let me remind some of the Mighty Men...better you serve then you lead in the Kingdom of GOD

Chuck
01-12-2010, 07:26 PM
He's not calling you out on sin ... those passages are instruction on modesty .. not law on specific actions. Those were illustrations of the time.

:rolleyes: didnt we already have a 2000 hit thread on this? :huh:

Agreed. But if those 3 verses were specific to that time... couldn't the next 3 dealing with women also be specific to that time?

How do you discern within the same letter.. to the same person.. during the same period in history... which things are meant for today and which are meant for all time?? :huh:

Tyburn
01-12-2010, 07:39 PM
Agreed. But if those 3 verses were specific to that time... couldn't the next 3 dealing with women also be specific to that time?

How do you discern within the same letter.. to the same person.. during the same period in history... which things are meant for today and which are meant for all time?? :huh:

The Gift of Discernment of Spirits :huh: Not gonna argue, having met the man, I'm prepared to entertain the idea that Boomer may very well be blessed with that gift.

That doesnt mean I will always think he's right though :laugh:

Chuck
01-12-2010, 08:19 PM
The Gift of Discernment of Spirits :huh: Not gonna argue, having met the man, I'm prepared to entertain the idea that Boomer may very well be blessed with that gift.

That doesnt mean I will always think he's right though :laugh:

Having met Boomer myself I would agree with his gifts wholeheartedly.... :happydancing:

But that wouldn't be the proper use of a spiritual gift :wink: I don't think (could be wrong) the purpose of our spiritual gifts is to determine doctrine. :)

Tyburn
01-12-2010, 08:35 PM
Having met Boomer myself I would agree with his gifts wholeheartedly.... :happydancing:

But that wouldn't be the proper use of a spiritual gift :wink: I don't think (could be wrong) the purpose of our spiritual gifts is to determine doctrine. :)

Probably not a doctrine like this, and probably not because Boomer isnt in a position to actually install doctrine. But supposing for example Boomer was a member of the Council of Bishops at Lambeth that have to vote about the denominations view on such an issue?

But as far as this debate on this forum...nah...Its just his opinion I'll wager :laugh:

Boomer
01-12-2010, 09:42 PM
Not quite... :wink:

Do you seriously think that's what you did or are you just being a douchbag? (Sound like clarification to you?)
yes



I did exactly that. Almost word for word.
except for the blah blah about mark replying himself because you have been charged with his spiritual growth and think it weak to have anyone else answer and me jumping to conclusions.




Funny I thought you were the one who jumped to the conclusion I was talking about Mark? Weren't you the one who saw some "layers of meaning" behind my post that revealed my "Spiritual maturity" (Nice judgment by the way :wink:) thanks ... arn't we here to grow???

The irony here is almost too much to handle! :laugh: almost .. thank God its just barely containable.


The only "victim" mentality here is yours and everybody who portrays Mark that way when anybody questions him. No believer will ever grow if they're coddled and protected all the time. We all need to be challenged in our faith. We need to have our beliefs and theological positions held to the flames to make sure our doctrine is sound. Keep people from that, even those you care about, and you're only hurting them.
:laugh: the first part makes no sense what so ever and the second is just about as generic a statement as they come. I'd glad you think of me as a coddler. I'll have to work on that. The issue I had was you using a single scripture to imply what Mark just wrote had sin behind it because he used many words. You said that it wasn't intended to be that ... ok. But then you created the issue of "mark replying himself" and jumping to conclusions. You were vague in your use of that scripture and you quoted someone else. That implies you were addressing what was quoted with that scripture. If your intent was really just to "help" and this was nothing about yourself then you would have seen how what you posted could have been seen in a way that could do more harm than good. But since you are just "encouraging growth" no one should say anything. If someone should say something, than we are packing around someone weak. :rolleyes: I find it interesting that you think a friend (regardless of who it is) saying something in defense of another friend is considered weakness. I think God gives us friends so we don't have to stand alone. But, I'm done with this.

Mark
01-13-2010, 01:06 AM
You know what I think. I think its because Women can do Mens roles, but Men cant do Womens roles. Therefore you must dissallow Women the option of doing Mens roles...because if you allow it, and too many take up the offer, the Men will be unable to fill the void

The Void which is not important...but is essential. Those are two different things you'll note. The void of hands on nurturing, the void of administration within the household, the void of pastoral care...which the Men (Vocals of this Forum certainly...) just cant do. It is a shyte job...but someone has to do it...and as the men are not actually able to on the whole...then the women must. Part of the problem in a Spiritual sense is that all the women will spend forever picking up the mess the Men have created, as they go through smashing people down with strong and manly rebukes, with upsetting people left, right and centre

...and here is something else. Calling yourself a Servant doesnt make you one if you Lead. Adam was the head of the House that fell...that is why HE Leads and She Serves...and let me remind some of the Mighty Men...better you serve then you lead in the Kingdom of GOD

OK I dont know what to say.??... I think I hear the cuckoo clock going off.

Mark
01-13-2010, 01:08 AM
douchbag? .

We use this word in the Christian section?

MattHughesRocks
01-13-2010, 01:18 AM
:laugh:

Ooops, I forgot, this is the serious section :mellow:


OK I dont know what to say.??... I think I hear the cuckoo clock going off.

Chuck
01-13-2010, 02:11 AM
:laugh: the first part makes no sense what so ever and the second is just about as generic a statement as they come. I'd glad you think of me as a coddler. I'll have to work on that. The issue I had was you using a single scripture to imply what Mark just wrote had sin behind it because he used many words. You said that it wasn't intended to be that ... ok. But then you created the issue of "mark replying himself" and jumping to conclusions. You were vague in your use of that scripture and you quoted someone else. That implies you were addressing what was quoted with that scripture. If your intent was really just to "help" and this was nothing about yourself then you would have seen how what you posted could have been seen in a way that could do more harm than good. But since you are just "encouraging growth" no one should say anything. If someone should say something, than we are packing around someone weak. :rolleyes: I find it interesting that you think a friend (regardless of who it is) saying something in defense of another friend is considered weakness. I think God gives us friends so we don't have to stand alone. But, I'm done with this.

:wink:

Chuck
01-13-2010, 02:12 AM
We use this word in the Christian section?

I was just seeking clarification. :wink:

Neezar
01-13-2010, 03:13 AM
You know what I think. I think its because Women can do Mens roles, but Men cant do Womens roles. Therefore you must dissallow Women the option of doing Mens roles...because if you allow it, and too many take up the offer, the Men will be unable to fill the void

The Void which is not important...but is essential. (:jumping0001:)
:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Those are two different things you'll note. The void of hands on nurturing, the void of administration within the household, the void of pastoral care...which the Men (Vocals of this Forum certainly...) just cant do. It is a shyte job...but someone has to do it...and as the men are not actually able to on the whole...then the women must.

Exactly!!! Now you are getting it! The women have the women's role which you describe above as what it means to you (nuturing, pastoral care, etc). However, on the same note you have the men and their role which the women can't do. You say yes they can but I will ignore that because they only give it their best shot which a man could also do in a woman's role. You create that void when women try to do a man's job and ignore theirs. You get the beautiful balance when you have the blessing of both: man and woman in their intended roles. :)

Part of the problem in a Spiritual sense is that all the women will spend forever picking up the mess the Men have created, as they go through smashing people down with strong and manly rebukes, with upsetting people left, right and centre

No, they don't pick up the mess. They compliment the men to make a perfect balance. Your comments about the men making a mess by being manly well....that is a matter of opinion and something to be discussed in another thread. :unsure-1: lol

...and here is something else. Calling yourself a Servant doesnt make you one if you Lead. Adam was the head of the House that fell...that is why HE Leads and She Serves...and let me remind some of the Mighty Men...better you serve then you lead in the Kingdom of GOD

They both serve GOD. The man serves by leading as God intended and the woman serves by doing it better and looking like she is serving the man.

MattHughesRocks
01-13-2010, 03:32 AM
:rolleyes:

They both serve GOD. The man serves by leading as God intended and the woman serves by doing it better and looking like she is serving the man.

Neezar
01-13-2010, 03:49 AM
:ashamed: Oops! Freudian slip.



:laugh:

Tyburn
01-13-2010, 12:16 PM
OK I dont know what to say.??... I think I hear the cuckoo clock going off.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Jonlion
01-13-2010, 09:54 PM
Ya'll probably all know this but the sabbath was created for us not God.

I think the Lord in his mercy understands that we need just one day to just be. To take one day to rest amongst the hectic tumult of our lives and to be and to reflect and to turn our hearts to the Lord.

Why because he knows it is healthy for our souls because he always knows whats best. I mean, the Lord didn't need a day to rest, so it is there for us.

So to me, I don't think it is entirely important what exact day you observe the sabbath but that you ensure that one day of the week is set aside to rest, could be Monday, Tuesday or sunday., just ensure its one day!

Jonlion
01-13-2010, 10:07 PM
With regards to the main arguement. I agree that men should only reallly be the lead pastors. It is best for men to disciple other men and women likewise.

What I would say is that its great quoting all your bible references about women being submissive to men and subject to our rule.

"in the lord woman in not indpendent of man nor man of woman, for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman" 1 Corinthians 11:11

"Husbands love your wives as christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" Ephesians 5:25

I agree with most what most of ya'll are saying but wanted to chuck these up, not too say anyone doesn't do this but its a good reminder.