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Mark
01-03-2010, 02:46 AM
Can I Lose My Salvation after I was saved?

que
01-03-2010, 02:55 AM
if it was possible to lose one's salvation then no human being would ever go to heaven. we are all sinful, evil and not worthy of Jesus Christ or his Holy Kingdom.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Tyburn
01-03-2010, 02:55 AM
Can I Lose My Salvation after I was saved?

No.

Unless you commit the unforgiveable sin...but just what that is, is not easy to define, possibly suicide, possibly not, probably not something you can actually do IF you are propally saved.

But not all people who claim to be Saved are in the first place. You do actually need to be Saved in the first place...again not easy to proove or define

:ninja:

(sorry was that a bit Rambling for you :unsure-1:)

Mark
01-03-2010, 03:07 AM
if it was possible to lose one's salvation then no human being would ever go to heaven. we are all sinful, evil and not worthy of Jesus Christ or his Holy Kingdom.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Good point but I think believes is the key word.

Mark
01-03-2010, 03:09 AM
No.

Unless you commit the unforgiveable sin...but just what that is, is not easy to define, possibly suicide, possibly not, probably not something you can actually do IF you are propally saved.

But not all people who claim to be Saved are in the first place. You do actually need to be Saved in the first place...again not easy to proove or define

:ninja:

(sorry was that a bit Rambling for you :unsure-1:)

So your answer is yes?

MattHughesRocks
01-03-2010, 03:51 AM
Which was what I was going to say.The only way to lose it is if you don't believe anymore but I can't imagine what happens to someone who goes from a believer to a nonbeliever.Are there any new nonbelievers here that can explain?:laugh:
That and living a sinful life makes me wonder if someone was a believer in the first place.I think they are called "hopers" :laugh: Hopers don't go to heaven :unsure-1:



Good point but I think believes is the key word.

Tyburn
01-03-2010, 04:24 AM
So your answer is yes?

No.

My Answer is No.

:laugh:

adamt
01-03-2010, 04:50 AM
Can I Lose My Salvation after I was saved?

yeah, if it was up to you, then you probably could. However it isn't up to you. It is up to God. When you accept His Son as your Savior, then it is not you grasping on to Him, it is Him grasping on to you. So yes you probably could, and will, let go at times, but rest assured He will never let go.
It is all about perspective. You ain't got any leverage in the deal, it would be God doing the "losing" or letting go, and He won't do that.

Short answer= NO!!!!!

Mark
01-03-2010, 05:11 AM
yeah, if it was up to you, then you probably could. However it isn't up to you. It is up to God. When you accept His Son as your Savior, then it is not you grasping on to Him, it is Him grasping on to you. So yes you probably could, and will, let go at times, but rest assured He will never let go.
It is all about perspective. You ain't got any leverage in the deal, it would be God doing the "losing" or letting go, and He won't do that.

Short answer= NO!!!!!

What about this?

2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."

Bonnie
01-03-2010, 05:37 AM
No.

Unless you commit the unforgiveable sin...but just what that is, is not easy to define, possibly suicide, possibly not, probably not something you can actually do IF you are propally saved.

But not all people who claim to be Saved are in the first place. You do actually need to be Saved in the first place...again not easy to proove or define

:ninja:

(sorry was that a bit Rambling for you :unsure-1:)

So there might be people that think they are saved, but when Jesus comes will find out that they aren't. Is that what you are saying, Dave. :unsure-1:

I read a story once, fictional, but I thought it had a good moral to it: This woman and her husband were landowners and had seasonal migrant workers who worked for them. She thought of herself as a wonderful giving person who was kind and generous to these migrants. She thought for sure she would be at the front of the line when Jesus came. But in the story, she is shocked to find herself at the end of the line behind those same migrant workers. :wink:

NateR
01-03-2010, 06:02 AM
No.

Unless you commit the unforgiveable sin...but just what that is, is not easy to define, possibly suicide, possibly not, probably not something you can actually do IF you are propally saved.

But not all people who claim to be Saved are in the first place. You do actually need to be Saved in the first place...again not easy to proove or define

:ninja:

(sorry was that a bit Rambling for you :unsure-1:)

Once you are saved, then you are incapable of committing the unpardonable sin. So, no, you can never lose your salvation. Ever.

The way I've always understood it is, if there is nothing good enough we can do to earn our salvation, then there can be nothing bad enough that we can do to lose our salvation. It's just simple logic.

NateR
01-03-2010, 06:06 AM
What about this?

2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."

I believe that passage is referring to the Israelites, not necessarily Gentile believers (which would be you and I).

Mark
01-03-2010, 06:17 AM
Once you are saved, then you are incapable of committing the unpardonable sin. So, no, you can never lose your salvation. Ever.

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."


But it doesn't say, "No one can leave my hand."

Bonnie
01-03-2010, 06:21 AM
Mark quoted Timonthy 2:12 from his bible with "disown" which implies having known/believed in God and then turning away from Him. In my NKJ it uses the words "deny" implying (to me) that you do not believe in the first place.

Is this what makes you ask, Mark, about "losing salvation"? Where it says, "disown"? :unsure-1:

Mark
01-03-2010, 06:23 AM
I believe that passage is referring to the Israelites, not necessarily Gentile believers (which would be you and I).

Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Does this mean that if I dont stand firm to the end I will not be saved.

NateR
01-03-2010, 06:27 AM
John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."


But it doesn't say, "No one can leave my hand."

The Bible gives us an example of this in 1 Kings 11: 1-13:
1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.

9 The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD's command. 11 So the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. 12 Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen."

So, this brings up the question: Is Solomon currently in Heaven or Hell?

If he went to Hell, then that means that we have 3 books of the Bible (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon) that were written by a man who is sitting in Hell at this very moment. Now, if there was ever any justification for removing a book from the Bible, then I believe that would be it.

NateR
01-03-2010, 06:32 AM
Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Does this mean that if I dont stand firm to the end I will not be saved.

I don't think the word "saved" in that verse is referring to salvation through Jesus Christ, I think it is referring to preservation from harm, which is pretty clear in verse 23 and just the overall context of the paragraph. So, that passage is talking about worldly persecutions and enduring them until Christ's Second Coming.

Mark
01-03-2010, 06:37 AM
Is this what makes you ask, Mark, about "losing salvation"? Where it says, "disown"? :unsure-1:

I always thought "once saved always saved". But now I am starting the think different.
Does it make cense to you that Hitler is in Heaven if he was saved at a early age?

Belief is a function of the will. No one can force a person to believe. He or she must choose to believe. Can also choose to stop believing?

Mark
01-03-2010, 06:45 AM
The Bible gives us an example of this in 1 Kings 11: 1-13:


So, this brings up the question: Is Solomon currently in Heaven or Hell?

If he went to Hell, then that means that we have 3 books of the Bible (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon) that were written by a man who is sitting in Hell at this very moment. Now, if there was ever any justification for removing a book from the Bible, then I believe that would be it.

I dont know where Solomon is do you?
I do know when One of the 12 apostles is. Where is Judas at? Was he not one of the 12 apostles?

Mark
01-03-2010, 06:48 AM
Explain this one Nate
John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned."

NateR
01-03-2010, 06:57 AM
I always thought "once saved always saved". But now I am starting the think different.
Does it make cense to you that Hitler is in Heaven if he was saved at a early age?

Belief is a function of the will. No one can force a person to believe. He or she must choose to believe. Can also choose to stop believing?

Hitler's actions later in life would be good evidence that he was never a believer. Everything from his hatred of the Jews to the dabbling in the occult. If he had been saved early in life, then GOD would never have allowed him to backslide that far, He would have taken Hitler's life if necessary.

I dont know where Solomon is do you?
I do know when One of the 12 apostles is. Where is Judas at? Was he not one of the 12 apostles?

Obviously Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him before He even chose him. So, Judas is an example of someone who was never a true believer to begin with.

Explain this one Nate
John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned."

You have to keep this passage in the context of who Jesus was talking to. Here he was talking to Israelites, those who believed that they would inherit the kingdom of GOD by simply be born as Jews. So, again, this is referring to those who were never true believers to begin with.

Remember when we were talking about the parable of the sower? According to that passage, two out of every three professing Christians are false believers. And that is going to continue to be a problem in the Church until Christ returns.

Maglorius
01-03-2010, 07:06 AM
I always thought "once saved always saved". But now I am starting the think different.
Does it make cense to you that Hitler is in Heaven if he was saved at a early age?

Belief is a function of the will. No one can force a person to believe. He or she must choose to believe. Can also choose to stop believing?

No it doesn't and I don't believe he is in heaven. If he were truly saved at an early age would he have committed all those atrocities. I don't think so.

Jonah 2:9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you;what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the LORD!"

The gift of salvation is not ours to take or to give back. Even when a person chooses to believe, that ability to believe comes not from within ourselves but from the holy spirit enabling us to choose/accept Jesus. You can't lose something you never had.

I find it very hard to fathom someone that was saved ie new heart, new mind and than later in life decide to throw it away. If it is true that a person can lose Gods Salvation than we are also saying that Gods grace is sufficient for some and insufficient for others. In that his grace is enough to carry some to the end and not enough to carry others.

Mark
01-03-2010, 07:07 AM
Hitler
If he had been saved early in life, then GOD would never have allowed him to backslide that far, He would have taken Hitler's life if necessary.

How do you know that? You dont. Is this Dave or Nate that im talking to?

Obviously Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him before He even chose him. So, Judas is an example of someone who was never a true believer to begin with.

How do you know that? Give me some Bible Nate not just rambling.


You have to keep this passage in the context of who Jesus was talking to. Here he was talking to Israelites, those who believed that they would inherit the kingdom of GOD by simply be born as Jews. So, again, this is referring to those who were never true believers to begin with.

ok

Remember when we were talking about the parable of the sower? According to that passage, two out of every three professing Christians are false believers. And that is going to continue to be a problem in the Church until Christ returns.


Thats not what im talkn about.

NateR
01-03-2010, 07:22 AM
How do you know that? You dont. Is this Dave or Nate that im talking to?

Matthew 7: 18-20:
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

How do you know that? Give me some Bible Nate not just rambling.

Jesus predicted Judas' betrayal in Matthew 26:21-25. We can only assume that He had to have known about the coming betrayal long before that; since He was GOD and it was a part of the plan all along.

Thats not what im talkn about.

Well, it is related, because you have to ask yourself if a certain person lost their salvation or if they were just never truly saved to begin with.

Mark
01-03-2010, 07:28 AM
Matthew 7: 18-20:
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

2 PETER 2 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

NateR
01-03-2010, 07:37 AM
2 PETER 2 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

That passage is referring to the deception of false teachers and that entire chapter is about false doctrines. A false teacher would be someone who has an intellectual understanding of the Gospel, but hasn't taken it into his heart, thus they are ripe for corruption, perversion and heresy.

So, again, a false believer from the start and not someone who was saved and lost their salvation.

Chris F
01-03-2010, 08:31 AM
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven


Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved


Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away


Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing. 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

adamt
01-03-2010, 01:13 PM
So you believe in a salvation based on works?


And if you don't do the right works you are no longer saved?

And theoretically someone could get saved and unsaved millions of times while they are living, Right?

Are you thinking of going off the deep end into sin? If not what does it matter? If you theroetically could lose your salvation, it would only be by denying Christ, and if you don't want to do that then no need to worry about it and it is nothing but a tool the devil is using to divide us, and prevent us from doing something more worthwhile.



And what happens at salvation? We are regenerated and adopted and justified and forgiven, right?

So then at this "unsalvation" or desalvation", does all that reverse? Does God "indian give" his forgiveness, and put us back up for adoption, like some cosmic custody battle?

Tyburn
01-03-2010, 02:21 PM
So there might be people that think they are saved, but when Jesus comes will find out that they aren't. Is that what you are saying, Dave. :unsure-1:


YES exactly Bonnie.

The issue is not really can we looose our salvation, the issue is, are we sure we are saved in the first place....because we might think we are, and we might not be...but that doesnt mean Salvation can be lost...it means we never had nowt to looose in the first place :ninja:

Tyburn
01-03-2010, 02:31 PM
I always thought "once saved always saved". But now I am starting the think different.
Does it make cense to you that Hitler is in Heaven if he was saved at a early age?

Belief is a function of the will. No one can force a person to believe. He or she must choose to believe. Can also choose to stop believing?

What about the Tyrant who has a death bed conversion?

its a case of black and white, Mark...noone, niether Adolf, Nor You, Nor I is good enough for Heaven...we all deserve the same fate no matter what we do, because we are incapable of being perfect.

I dont think Hitler was ever saved in the first place, if you read some of the book he wrote in his young age...like everything, he just used religion as an excuse to gain a bit of support whilst manipulating his way to absolute power...in a similar way he did exactly the same to the Communists who supported him.

He turned on both of them...before his becoming Chancellor, the Roman Church had to smuggle in documents to be read in church from Pius 11th who was one of the people who saw through Adolfs disguise reasonably early on....and as for the Communists that provided the SA...well once he came to power, they were a threat that he quickly removed.

He was no more a socialist then he was a Roman Catholic (besides...I thought you didnt even consider Roman Catholics Christian...in which case what difference to you does it make if Adolf was Roman Catholic...as a heretical movement that apparently worships Mary, surely you wouldnt consider him a Christian anyway...which goes back to my point about thinking you are a Christian when you are not, which you havent addressed)

Tyburn
01-03-2010, 02:43 PM
I dont know where Solomon is do you?
I do know when One of the 12 apostles is. Where is Judas at? Was he not one of the 12 apostles?

I've got a question for you Mark concerning Judas.

Why do you think Judas committed Suicide, and what do you think that shows he thought about what he had done?


As we are on Apostles...his replacement isnt a true apostle either. The Church was told to wait before replacing Judas very early in the book of Acts, but they did not listen to GOD...the replacement for Judas should have been Saint Paul...but they didnt wait as GOD instructed.

Let us just look at who Saint Paul was before his Conversion...since the rest of them were humble labourers, Saint Paul was not. Paul held Roman Citizenship, he traveled around, he had an amount of wealth the others never had...

...oh...and he was responsible for killing the first Christian Martyer

You really think the person who got Stephen Killed...a multiple Murderer...now rests in Heaven.

Your problem, if I may be so blunt...is you only see this from the Temporal perspective. (your use of Adolf Hitler and his sin for example, as if anything he did should relate at all to a Salvation.) Sin is not seen in degrees by GOD, if you are not perfect and Holy, you deserve to die...regardless of how many Jews you have murdered. Salvation is not based on the person, its based on GOD

One of the psalms even talks about trying to run from GOD and finding that GOD is in the depths, and in the Heights and everywhere. You cant accidently fall from Grace...because you are already Fallen...you can either be left to rot, or you can be lifted. He's not some stupid yoyo that lifts you up and then drops you based on what you do This isnt about you. And taking silly scriptural sentances out of context, when Nathan, time and time again shows you what they are meant in terms of the context, doesnt help proove anything.

but at least you have Pastor Chris on your side :laugh:

warriorlion
01-03-2010, 06:48 PM
[QUOTE=Tyburn;90804].
...oh...and he was responsible for killing the first Christian Martyer
QUOTE]

actually I think you will find he stood to one side as stephen was stoned. the bible doesnt show that he was responcible for it. only that the garments were laid at his feet as the people stoned Stephen.

Acts 7
58Then(DL) they cast him out of the city and(DM) stoned him. And(DN) the witnesses laid down their garments(DO) at the feet of a young man named Saul.


So to say he was responsible for it is overstating.

Chris F
01-03-2010, 06:53 PM
I've got a question for you Mark concerning Judas.

Why do you think Judas committed Suicide, and what do you think that shows he thought about what he had done?


As we are on Apostles...his replacement isnt a true apostle either. The Church was told to wait before replacing Judas very early in the book of Acts, but they did not listen to GOD...the replacement for Judas should have been Saint Paul...but they didnt wait as GOD instructed.

Let us just look at who Saint Paul was before his Conversion...since the rest of them were humble labourers, Saint Paul was not. Paul held Roman Citizenship, he traveled around, he had an amount of wealth the others never had...

...oh...and he was responsible for killing the first Christian Martyer

You really think the person who got Stephen Killed...a multiple Murderer...now rests in Heaven.

Your problem, if I may be so blunt...is you only see this from the Temporal perspective. (your use of Adolf Hitler and his sin for example, as if anything he did should relate at all to a Salvation.) Sin is not seen in degrees by GOD, if you are not perfect and Holy, you deserve to die...regardless of how many Jews you have murdered. Salvation is not based on the person, its based on GOD

One of the psalms even talks about trying to run from GOD and finding that GOD is in the depths, and in the Heights and everywhere. You cant accidently fall from Grace...because you are already Fallen...you can either be left to rot, or you can be lifted. He's not some stupid yoyo that lifts you up and then drops you based on what you do This isnt about you. And taking silly scriptural sentances out of context, when Nathan, time and time again shows you what they are meant in terms of the context, doesnt help proove anything.

but at least you have Pastor Chris on your side :laugh:

I did not say a thing. All I did was quote scripture. So if the scripture I quoted proves Mark is right then it is the scripture that is on his side. No one on here is Good enough for Heaven. NateR is completely right when he says most of the time the people were not saved ot start with. However Mark is also right in that one can choose to walk away from their salvation. They did not loose it they forfeited which is simply telling the Holy Spirit I want no part of you and thus blaspheme Him and Christ redemptive work. It has nothing ot do with salvation by works. James is clear that those who are really saved will have Works. Jesus was real clear that those who are saved will have fruits. Peter, Paul and John are clear that those who are saved will live according to His commandments and be holy and righteous. Jesus was very Clear that we must be perfect! This is only possible in living your life In Christ. One cannot have one foot in salvation and the other in sin. So my side is you all are right to one degree or another.

Tyburn
01-03-2010, 07:14 PM
[QUOTE=Tyburn;90804].
...oh...and he was responsible for killing the first Christian Martyer
QUOTE]

actually I think you will find he stood to one side as stephen was stoned. the bible doesnt show that he was responcible for it. only that the garments were laid at his feet as the people stoned Stephen.

Acts 7
58Then(DL) they cast him out of the city and(DM) stoned him. And(DN) the witnesses laid down their garments(DO) at the feet of a young man named Saul.


So to say he was responsible for it is overstating.

Its not an overstatement at all.

They didnt lay the garments at Sauls feet because he was the first person they came across :rolleyes: That action tells alot about who the people believed they were doing it for. The spoils from Stephen were handed over to a Christian Persecutor, and a trained pharasee himself I believe.

Someone who we later see if extremely deviceive. Later in Acts in order to avoid issues, he pulls on his Roman Heratage to save him. He also knows enough of the law to get the denominations of the Temple to argue amoungst themselves. thereby giving him the opening he needs to avoid problems.

You can be reasonably sure that Stephen being killed was Saint Paul's fault

Jonlion
01-03-2010, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE=NateR;90774]Hitler's actions later in life would be good evidence that he was never a believer. Everything from his hatred of the Jews to the dabbling in the occult. If he had been saved early in life, then GOD would never have allowed him to backslide that far, He would have taken Hitler's life if necessary.QUOTE]

I completely agree with you here and although difficult it gives me comfort to know that in suffering or poverty then actually the Lord is showing me love and being merciful.

Jonlion
01-03-2010, 07:33 PM
I did not say a thing. All I did was quote scripture. So if the scripture I quoted proves Mark is right then it is the scripture that is on his side. No one on here is Good enough for Heaven. NateR is completely right when he says most of the time the people were not saved ot start with. However Mark is also right in that one can choose to walk away from their salvation. They did not loose it they forfeited which is simply telling the Holy Spirit I want no part of you and thus blaspheme Him and Christ redemptive work. It has nothing ot do with salvation by works. James is clear that those who are really saved will have Works. Jesus was real clear that those who are saved will have fruits. Peter, Paul and John are clear that those who are saved will live according to His commandments and be holy and righteous. Jesus was very Clear that we must be perfect! This is only possible in living your life In Christ. One cannot have one foot in salvation and the other in sin. So my side is you all are right to one degree or another.

Do you believe in progressive sanctification?

Once saved, does one immediately drop all sin and become instantly perfect?

I completely agree that one will bear fruit but that takes time, right? I believe that Jesus accepts nothing but perfection so the path to him is relentless and hard but he demands nothing less becoming as such a "little christ", righteous in him. However that does not happen in one evening of being saved?????????

Also, when you say produce good fruit

And when you that do you mean fruit as in wealth? Health? good house? well travelled? big landowner? prosperity?

If one is wholly in Holiness, what happens, all good things happen? What is the fruit you attest to?

Jonlion
01-03-2010, 07:44 PM
Luke 13:24-27 (New International Version)

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

Let me tell you, no other passage feels me with such fear.

As for the rest of arguement, I am afraid I'll have to read God's word some more.

Bonnie
01-03-2010, 07:53 PM
Do you believe in progressive sanctification?

Once saved, does one immediately drop all sin and become instantly perfect?

I completely agree that one will bear fruit but that takes time, right? I believe that Jesus accepts nothing but perfection so the path to him is relentless and hard but he demands nothing less becoming as such a "little christ", righteous in him. However that does not happen in one evening of being saved?????????

Also, when you say produce good fruit

And when you that do you mean fruit as in wealth? Health? good house? well travelled? big landowner? prosperity?

If one is wholly in Holiness, what happens, all good things happen? What is the fruit you attest to?

I think this is THE question. Do not Christians still stumble, still sin? :huh: Isn't that why Jesus died for us, because we are sinners, so that we could be forgiven for our sins and have salvation.

I think from the passages Mark quoted and I've read, "bearing fruit" means living your life in Christ, following his commandments, spreading the word of Jesus. I don't think they are speaking of earthly possessions or wealth.

Jonlion
01-03-2010, 08:10 PM
I think this is THE question. Do not Christians still stumble, still sin? :huh: Isn't that why Jesus died for us, because we are sinners, so that we could be forgiven for our sins and have salvation.

I think from the passages Mark quoted and I've read, "bearing fruit" means living your life in Christ, following his commandments, spreading the word of Jesus. I don't think they are speaking of earthly possessions or wealth.

I hope that is what they attest to.

As John the Baptist was one of the greatest people who ever lived and come to a grisly end.

I am very much against anything that promotes the "prosperity gospel"!

Mark
01-03-2010, 08:25 PM
So you believe in a salvation based on works?
No, I want good fruit though and a relationship with Jesus.

And if you don't do the right works you are no longer saved?
I think If you dont have a relationship with Jesus...possibly loose your salvation.

And theoretically someone could get saved and unsaved millions of times while they are living, Right?
I dont think so.


Are you thinking of going off the deep end into sin? If not what does it matter? If you theroetically could lose your salvation, it would only be by denying Christ, and if you don't want to do that then no need to worry about it and it is nothing but a tool the devil is using to divide us, and prevent us from doing something more worthwhile.
Is it terrible to think that he would want a relationship long term?
What does it mater? Only possibly my salvation?

And what happens at salvation? We are regenerated and adopted and justified and forgiven, right?
We are judged.
So then at this "unsalvation" or desalvation", does all that reverse? Does God "indian give" his forgiveness, and put us back up for adoption, like some cosmic custody battle?

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
If my name is in the book of life im going to heaven right? Why does he say blot out in the book of life?

adamt
01-03-2010, 09:03 PM
leave it to mark to stir up all the deep stuff.... :)

too deep for me really...

and i hope you took my post as rhetorical, because i certainly don't think you believe what i "accused" you of... completely rhetorical



before i elaborate on your post, do you have a position on being at fellowship with the Holy Spirit or being filled with the Spirit, or walking in the Spirit?

Of course it isn't like I am an authority on it, just friendly dialogue, iron sharpens iron.

I remember when i was about 12 or 13 and i had an experience i almost thought was a salvation experience, but it couldn't have been because I accepted and sacrifice my life to Christ when i was 7. I remember thinking maybe I wasn't saved when i thought i was, but have now come to the conclusion that that experience was a reassurance of salvation, which just shows a healthy relationship with Christ. I know that that experience was a huge growing point in my walk with Christ.
And I have had several other experiences since then that also marked large growing points in my walk with Christ. Not so much lately since I have matured more and more, but I do remember them, and occasionally I have these moments or reassurance that are nice to have, but I don't at all believe them to be getting saved again.

Also...

If you can lose your salvation, does He erase your name from the Book of Life? And what if you get saved again? Does it keep getting erased and put back? And does He remember the sins He forgot at your point of salvation? Does He dredge them up from the depths of the sea just to list them in your account to hold you accountable for them on the day of Judgement?

Play The Man
01-03-2010, 11:27 PM
Mark, I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere on here that you attend a Presbyterian church. If so, you should consult the Westminster Shorter & Larger Catechism and the Confession of Faith to help you answer these questions. These issues have been wrestled (:wrestler: pun intended) with by Godly men in the past.

Here is a link to the Westminster Larger Catechism: http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/larger1.html

Here are some of the questions and answers that are pertinent to what you have been asking. In a more detailed copy of the catechism, it will give all the scripture references backing up how it assembled the answer to the question.

Question 77: Wherein do justification and sanctification differ?

Answer: Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification, yet they differ, in that God in justification imputes the righteousness of Christ;in sanctification his Spirit infuses grace, and enables to the exercise thereof; in the former, sin is pardoned; in the other, it is subdued:the one does equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation; the other is neither equal in all, nor in this life perfect in any, but growing up to perfection.


Question 78: Whence arises the imperfection of sanctification in believers?

Answer: The imperfection of sanctification in believers arises from the remnants of sin abiding in every part of them, and the perpetual lustings of the flesh against the spirit; whereby they are often foiled with temptations, and fall into many sins, are hindered in all their spiritual services, and their best works are imperfect and defiled in the sight of God.


Question 79: May not true believers, by reason of their imperfections, and the many temptations and sins they are overtaken with, fall away from the state of grace ?

Answer: True believers, by reason of the unchangeable love of God, and his decree and covenant to give them perseverance, their inseparable union with Christ, his continual intercession for them, and the Spirit and seed of God abiding in them, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.


Question 80: Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

Answer: Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God's promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.


Question 81: Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?

Answer: Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.

Jonlion
01-03-2010, 11:39 PM
Mark, I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere on here that you attend a Presbyterian church. If so, you should consult the Westminster Shorter & Larger Catechism and the Confession of Faith to help you answer these questions. These issues have been wrestled (:wrestler: pun intended) with by Godly men in the past.

Here is a link to the Westminster Larger Catechism: http://http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/larger1.html

Here are some of the questions and answers that are pertinent to what you have been asking. In a more detailed copy of the catechism, it will give all the scripture references backing up how it assembled the answer to the question.



Great link to the questions, thank you!

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 12:19 AM
Mark, I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere on here that you attend a Presbyterian church. If so, you should consult the Westminster Shorter & Larger Catechism and the Confession of Faith to help you answer these questions. These issues have been wrestled (:wrestler: pun intended) with by Godly men in the past.

Here is a link to the Westminster Larger Catechism: http://http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/larger1.html

Here are some of the questions and answers that are pertinent to what you have been asking. In a more detailed copy of the catechism, it will give all the scripture references backing up how it assembled the answer to the question.



Well Played Mr Man! :happydancing:

Bonnie
01-04-2010, 12:25 AM
The link isn't working for me. :wink:

Thanks for posting some of the ?s and answers. :)

Okay, I googled and got it.

NateR
01-04-2010, 12:40 AM
The link isn't working for me. :wink:

The link should be working now. It just had one too many http's in it.

Mark
01-04-2010, 12:41 AM
If you can lose your salvation, does He erase your name from the Book of Life? And what if you get saved again? Does it keep getting erased and put back? And does He remember the sins He forgot at your point of salvation? Does He dredge them up from the depths of the sea just to list them in your account to hold you accountable for them on the day of Judgement?

I dont know, I dont have the answers, it is something that im thinking about.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 12:50 AM
It just had one too many http's in it.

:laugh:

Bonnie
01-04-2010, 12:52 AM
The link should be working now. It just had one too many http's in it.

Thanks, Nate. :)

NateR
01-04-2010, 01:03 AM
Also...

If you can lose your salvation, does He erase your name from the Book of Life? And what if you get saved again? Does it keep getting erased and put back? And does He remember the sins He forgot at your point of salvation? Does He dredge them up from the depths of the sea just to list them in your account to hold you accountable for them on the day of Judgement?

Well according to Hebrews 6:4-6....

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

...if you can lose your salvation and you do lose it, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it back. That's it. You're damed for all eternity. If that's the case, then it would be better to never get saved, because at least then you would have a chance at salvation.

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 01:22 AM
For those interested, there is a reasonably priced copy ($12) of The Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms at the following link. It is a beautiful little hardcover, cloth book. It contains the proof texts and a scripture index. It is compact, 5 inches x 7.5 inches x 1 inch so it could fit in a large coat pocket.

http://www.cepbookstore.com/p-3478-westminster-cof-cat-cloth.aspx

adamt
01-04-2010, 01:24 AM
I dont know, I dont have the answers, it is something that im thinking about.

that's the best news i could have heard.

No doubt if you are in fact a christian, the Holy Spirit will lead you right, provided you are remotely submitted to Him, but the great thing is, once you get it sorted out in your head and heart(spirit) you will be that much stronger, this is one of those things, IMO that really make you mature.... how else would you mature... The Lord knows I have to endure it constantly.... And I don't think it is a process that goes in a particular order, I think it's more like Boy Scout badges, you just get them in whatever order works best for your particular case, meaning I might have some badges that you don't and you might have some badges I don't, It doesn't mean that much if I said I have this badge, it isn't prideful of me to say that, because that isn't me claiming I am more mature than you, just that happens to be a badge that God has given me.... And I kinda think it is, cause I think I have been right where you are.... and I have NO DOUBT youll get it figured out and be all the wiser.... somebody could be almost to an eagle scout, and have all the badges except one, and then you could have this little cub scout with the very badge he needs... does that make sense?

I hope I didn't ramble too much, but certainly didn't want to appear like I think I am better than anybody, just that I have posed and pondered the exact same questions the exact same way.... I just wanted to pose some questions that hopefully would help you to think about it and to help you think about it from the right angle...

one last humble thought.... read the whole chapter of whatever verse you ponder on.... I think that is the bare minimum the Holy Spirit needs to really impart what He means to you.

adamt
01-04-2010, 01:25 AM
Well according to Hebrews 6:4-6....

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

...if you can lose your salvation and you do lose it, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it back. That's it. You're damed for all eternity. If that's the case, then it would be better to never get saved, because at least then you would have a chance at salvation.



of course my question was just to induce thinking, but that was something I had never pondered.

Very interesting... and from the looks of it I agree

Mark
01-04-2010, 02:28 AM
Mark, I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere on here that you attend a Presbyterian church. If so, you should consult the Westminster Shorter & Larger Catechism and the Confession of Faith to help you answer these questions. These issues have been wrestled (:wrestler: pun intended) with by Godly men in the past.

Here is a link to the Westminster Larger Catechism: http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/larger1.html

Here are some of the questions and answers that are pertinent to what you have been asking. In a more detailed copy of the catechism, it will give all the scripture references backing up how it assembled the answer to the question.



I go the the Presbyterian church and am a member. I dont believe in all that they do, women elders, infant baptism and some other things. This is the best church for my family in the area and I like it. So I am more interested in what the Bible says. Just like the Catholic beliefs I think are way off in my oppinion.

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 02:34 AM
I go the the Presbyterian church and am a member. I dont believe in all that they do, women elders, infant baptism and some other things. This is the best church for my family in the area and I like it. So I am more interested in what the Bible says. Just like the Catholic beliefs I think are way off in my oppinion.

It must be a PCUSA Church, rather than PCA or OPC. I understand your predicament. Perhaps take a look at the Westminster Catechism and Confession responses to these questions. In the footnotes, they refer you to the Scripture that they use to answer the questions. Those Scriptures could help you work through the issues.

Mark
01-04-2010, 02:57 AM
It must be a PCUSA Church, rather than PCA or OPC. I understand your predicament. Perhaps take a look at the Westminster Catechism and Confession responses to these questions. In the footnotes, they refer you to the Scripture that they use to answer the questions. Those Scriptures could help you work through the issues.

Question 166: Unto whom is Baptism to be administered?

Answer: Baptism is not to be administered to any that are out of the visible church, and so strangers from the covenant of promise, till they profess their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, but infants descending from parents, either both, or but one of them, professing faith in Christ, and obedience to him, are in that respect within the covenant, and to be baptized.

I dont believe in infant baptism. 1 Peter3 20-22 And it could lead to a false sense of security in my opinion. Does it give scripture for this somewhere?
Do they give scripture for this?

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 03:41 AM
Mark, here is a different link that has the Catechism and Confession with the Scripture references: http://www.opc.org/confessions.html

This is a link to the question you were just asking about: http://opc.org/documents/LCLayout2.pdf

I cut and pasted the footnotes. I put the bold function on anything that mentions children.

z. Acts 2:38–39, 41. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receivethe gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all
that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.… Then they that gladly
received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about
three thousand souls. Acts 8:12, 36, 38. But when they believed Philip preaching
the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were
baptized, both men and women.… And as they went on their way, they came unto a
certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be
baptized?… And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both
into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. Acts 16:15. And
when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged
me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained
us.
a. Col. 2:11–12. … in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision
made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision
of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through
the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Acts 2:38–
39. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name
of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as
many as the Lord our God shall call. Rom. 4:11–12. And he received the sign of
circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:
that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not
circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: and the father of
circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the
steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
1 Cor. 7:14. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving
wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are
they holy. Luke 18:15–16. And they brought unto him also infants, that he would
touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them
unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of
such is the kingdom of God. See Gen. 17:7–9; Gal. 3:9–14; Rom. 11:16.


I don't have any theological training. I don't want to tell you anything that is wrong. Double-check everything I say. I think the crux of the matter is the phrase, "and her household" or "and to your children". Baptists don't believe that this addresses infant baptism. Presbyterians believe it does. Presbyterians believe baptism is a sacrament (see Q. 162) - a sign and seal. Baptism in infants, they believe, is analogous to circumcision in Jewish male infants; it is a sign and seal of the Covenant between God and believers.

It sounds like you might be a Reformed Baptist attending a Presbyterian Church. You might want to look over the 1689 London Baptist Confession http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html. It is similar to the Westminster except for infant baptism.

Mark
01-04-2010, 03:53 AM
It sounds like you might be a Reformed Baptist attending a Presbyterian Church. You might want to look over the 1689 London Baptist Confession http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html. It is similar to the Westminster except for infant baptism.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I think you are right with that.

Matts#1Fan...Dr.Tonya
01-04-2010, 04:06 AM
We attend a Baptist Church....I am a "Once Saved...Always Saved!" girl

That is what I have been raised and that is what the Bible teaches!

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:45 AM
Do you believe in progressive sanctification?I believe scripture teaches it is a process. Thus why it says those who endure till the end

Once saved, does one immediately drop all sin and become instantly perfect?I wiush it was that easy. John chapters 2 and 3 prove sthis is not the case. We have to work at it

I completely agree that one will bear fruit but that takes time, right? I believe that Jesus accepts nothing but perfection so the path to him is relentless and hard but he demands nothing less becoming as such a "little christ", righteous in him. However that does not happen in one evening of being saved?????????Glad that is the case. I know I persoanlly have not arrived yet

Also, when you say produce good fruitJesus explains himself what he means. The fruit is proof ones has trully accpeted redemption by the way they walk. However we know via Peter's denial that even good fruits can bruise

And when you that do you mean fruit as in wealth? Health? good house? well travelled? big landowner? prosperity?NOt at all. I hate the greed gospel it is a cancer on the body of Christ

If one is wholly in Holiness, what happens, all good things happen? What is the fruit you attest to?

Holiness is descripbed by all the biblical writers in the New Testament. Todays bible teacher try to make it like we do not have to live right or obey God's commands if we said a little prayers as a child. hope this explained it better if not let me know.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:48 AM
Mark, I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere on here that you attend a Presbyterian church. If so, you should consult the Westminster Shorter & Larger Catechism and the Confession of Faith to help you answer these questions. These issues have been wrestled (:wrestler: pun intended) with by Godly men in the past.

Here is a link to the Westminster Larger Catechism: http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/larger1.html

Here are some of the questions and answers that are pertinent to what you have been asking. In a more detailed copy of the catechism, it will give all the scripture references backing up how it assembled the answer to the question.



Those are dogmas and were created by man. They cherry pick scriptures to justify their beliefs. EVERY denomination does it.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:50 AM
Well according to Hebrews 6:4-6....

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

...if you can lose your salvation and you do lose it, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it back. That's it. You're damed for all eternity. If that's the case, then it would be better to never get saved, because at least then you would have a chance at salvation.

Exactly. This is the whole reason Satan plants seeds of doubts in true believers minds

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:54 AM
We attend a Baptist Church....I am a "Once Saved...Always Saved!" girl

That is what I have been raised and that is what the Bible teaches!

Then you should have all the verses to prove that, This is Marks Dilemma and be able to thump your chest and be proud about your Baptist denomination does not help Mark. If you truly believe that then you should be able to provide book chapter and verse.

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 07:59 AM
They cherry pick scriptures to justify their beliefs.



Kind of like . . . YOU.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 08:01 AM
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours

I Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


I Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


I Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

II Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain

II Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (KJV)

I Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. (NIV)

I Timothy 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.(NASB).

I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Chris F
01-04-2010, 08:03 AM
Kind of like . . . YOU.

If you say so. I think you miss the point but no sense majoring on the minors when Jesus himself could stand with a neon sign telling you different you'd still follow your personal dog as over his Words. Rather then citing men of Theology how about some bible?

cheachea
01-04-2010, 12:36 PM
Isn't it awesome how the Bible kind of teaches both the responsibility of man and the sovereignty of God. It's like it encourages and assures us of our salvation and in the same sense warns us in the same way to repent of our sins. I think God knew that when The Holy Spirit moved in the writers so we couldn't pigeon hold the Lord. It's almost like you have to balance it out and not get to extreme to the point where you are afraid that you have lost your salvation after thinking a bad thought, but at the same time you are not out doing what ever you want thinking I'm saved I'll just ask for forgiveness later.
Ultimately I'm going to put my whole trust in the blood of Jesus Christ for my salvation and not in my fleshly attempts to live a holy life. I've found that the The Holy Spirit is the only One who can empower me to live the life God wants me to.

County Mike
01-04-2010, 01:24 PM
In my opinion, believing in Christ isn't good enough. You have to put in an honest effort to live a good and holy life. If you believe in God but continue to do things you know are wrong, you don't have a place in Heaven reserved.

cheachea
01-04-2010, 01:48 PM
I guess the best way to put it is you live a good life because you are saved and are thankful for what Christ has done for you on the cross.
You do the right thing because you are saved not to get saved.

Neezar
01-04-2010, 02:23 PM
So you believe in a salvation based on works?

No, but I believe that judgment will be based on works? Do you believe that we will be judged?

When God gives us a commandment do you consider that a work if we obey?



And if you don't do the right works you are no longer saved?

What do you mean by the 'right works'? Is there a list somewhere that can tell us the right ones and the wrong ones?
(ps I believe there is, it is in the bible.)

And theoretically someone could get saved and unsaved millions of times while they are living, Right? Not, IMO.

Are you thinking of going off the deep end into sin? If not what does it matter?

If you believe that God will judge you when you stand before Him based on the list of works he has commanded you then it matters big time.

If you theroetically could lose your salvation, it would only be by denying Christ, and if you don't want to do that then no need to worry about it and it is nothing but a tool the devil is using to divide us, and prevent us from doing something more worthwhile.



And what happens at salvation? We are regenerated and adopted and justified and forgiven, right?

So then at this "unsalvation" or desalvation", does all that reverse? Does God "indian give" his forgiveness, and put us back up for adoption, like some cosmic custody battle?

Do you believe that everyone will have the same fate in Heaven?

DonnaMaria
01-04-2010, 03:28 PM
found this. thought it was interesting.

from this website

http://www.carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/can-believer-lose-his-salvation


Can the believer lose his salvation?

This question often comes up in discussions among Christians and there is a healthy debate on whether or not it is possible to lose your salvation. The question and the answer are important because they can affect your relationship with God. For example, if someone believes that he can lose his salvation then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can't be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12). The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7).

Fortunately whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn't dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.

The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).

There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4-6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27-28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38-39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God, only in our uninspired misunderstanding.

It is my opinion, and I stress opinion, that it is not possible to lose one's salvation. I base this on scriptures that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish. If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective, that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6). However, 1 John 2:19 says in dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us," (NASB). I see this verse saying two things: First, that if it appears that false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, they will remain in the faith.

Nevertheless, there are different positions on this issue. One position states that it is possible to lose your salvation, but only if you want to. In other words, having been set free from sin, the person is then able by an act of will to deny the Lord and desire not to be a part of Him any longer.

Another position states that it is possible to lose your salvation if you sin too much. Then you need to go and confess your sin and get saved again. This has obvious problems because it could lead to someone trusting in his works and God's grace to be saved.

Another position states that it is not possible at all to lose your salvation, that because Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) you cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do, then also, losing it can't occur because of anything you do.

Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.

Miss Foxy
01-04-2010, 04:36 PM
In my opinion, believing in Christ isn't good enough. You have to put in an honest effort to live a good and holy life. If you believe in God but continue to do things you know are wrong, you don't have a place in Heaven reserved.

I sincerely agree with you.. People can rant and rave all day about being saved, quoting scripture, and pointing fingers at how holy they are...Fact is actions speak much louder than words.....

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 05:47 PM
I sincerely agree with you.. People can rant and rave all day about being saved, quoting scripture, and pointing fingers at how holy they are...Fact is actions speak much louder than words.....

Fact is miss Foxy...it doesnt matter what "actions" you do. You dont seem to understand that GOD requires perfection...and all your actions simply wont be enough. You cant earn you way to heaven. WADR, your not good enough, and you never will be. All fall short.

...and as for Words...perhaps you forget yourself on what power Words have...How did GOD create the Universe...did he Act or Speak...care to answer that question?

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 05:49 PM
Kind of like . . . YOU.

:laugh: EXACTLY :laugh:

eric84
01-04-2010, 06:10 PM
Fact is miss Foxy...it doesnt matter what "actions" you do. You dont seem to understand that GOD requires perfection...and all your actions simply wont be enough. You cant earn you way to heaven. WADR, your not good enough, and you never will be. All fall short.

...and as for Words...perhaps you forget yourself on what power Words have...How did GOD create the Universe...did he Act or Speak...care to answer that question?

Is not speaking an action? But we are also comparing a perfect God to very imperfect humans. God's words have a lot more "force" behind them than ours. I don't believe works can get you to Heaven, I believe by showing God your faith by your works you can qualify for salvation through Jesus's sacrifice for us. Jesus built the bridge to get to Heaven, but he isn't going to force us across :).

NateR
01-04-2010, 06:30 PM
I believe by showing God your faith by your works you can qualify for salvation through Jesus's sacrifice for us.

So exactly what works are required to "qualify for salvation" and how do you know when you are qualified enough to ask for salvation?

Mark
01-04-2010, 06:31 PM
Fact is miss Foxy...it doesnt matter what "actions" you do. You dont seem to understand that GOD requires perfection...and all your actions simply wont be enough. You cant earn you way to heaven. WADR, your not good enough, and you never will be. All fall short.

...and as for Words...perhaps you forget yourself on what power Words have...How did GOD create the Universe...did he Act or Speak...care to answer that question?

Once again I think you are wrong. It does matter what actions you do on the day of judgement.
GOD requires perfection is true but all you have to do is ask for forgiveness. Then your sin is forgiven and forgotten. No one is perfect Dave!
What do you mean by, your actions simply wont be enough, and you never will be. All fall short.???? We are talking about heaven or getting to heaven.

Read the Bible and you could answer it yourself.
Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

County Mike
01-04-2010, 06:49 PM
Fact is miss Foxy...it doesnt matter what "actions" you do. You dont seem to understand that GOD requires perfection...and all your actions simply wont be enough. You cant earn you way to heaven. WADR, your not good enough, and you never will be. All fall short.

...and as for Words...perhaps you forget yourself on what power Words have...How did GOD create the Universe...did he Act or Speak...care to answer that question?

Sorry Dave. I disagree with you almost completely on this subject.
I don't think you can coldly murder someone, then just "ask for fogiveness" and get into heaven. I think you can EARN your way into heaven by being a good person, doing good deeds and putting your best, honest effort into being a Christian. Simply asking for forgiveness on your deathbed doesn't cut it in my opinion. Spreading the gospel is a good deed, but I don't think it's the only way to get in.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 06:50 PM
Is not speaking an action? But we are also comparing a perfect God to very imperfect humans. God's words have a lot more "force" behind them than ours. I don't believe works can get you to Heaven, I believe by showing God your faith by your works you can qualify for salvation through Jesus's sacrifice for us. Jesus built the bridge to get to Heaven, but he isn't going to force us across :).

I dont believe you can "Qualify" for Heaven by doing anything. You can "choose" to go to heaven anytime you wish. By accepting Christ.

Consider

The Lord redeems the life of his servants;
none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned Says Pslam thirty four :ninja:

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 06:54 PM
Sorry Dave. I disagree with you almost completely on this subject.
I don't think you can coldly murder someone, then just "ask for fogiveness" and get into heaven. I think you can EARN your way into heaven by being a good person, doing good deeds and putting your best, honest effort into being a Christian. Simply asking for forgiveness on your deathbed doesn't cut it in my opinion. Spreading the gospel is a good deed, but I don't think it's the only way to get in.

Do you not believe GOD forgives?

Do you really think any action you do can possibly "Earn" you anything.

The only thing you deserve is Death...that is what it is to be Fallen. That is all your works can ammount to.

If you truely become a Christian, even after doing horrible things like murder, or whatever, then GOD will not abandon you...because he wont abandon himself, and his Spirit dwells inside you when you are a Christian.

I can get deeply theological about this if you wish, and show you how Logically, this is not about you at all, its about GOD.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 06:57 PM
Once again I think you are wrong. It does matter what actions you do on the day of judgement.
GOD requires perfection is true but all you have to do is ask for forgiveness. Then your sin is forgiven and forgotten. No one is perfect Dave!
What do you mean by, your actions simply wont be enough, and you never will be. All fall short.???? We are talking about heaven or getting to heaven.
.
I mean exactly what I say.

GOD requires perfection. You are not perfect...Ergo Salvation cant be based on works, UNLESS noone is saved.

Thats just very simple logic. IF you can get to heaven by doing a work, you dont need Christ do you.

Consider

The king is not saved by his great army;
a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.
17 The war horse is a false hope for salvation,
and by its great might it cannot rescue. The words of Psalm 33

Mark
01-04-2010, 07:01 PM
Sorry Dave. I disagree with you almost completely on this subject.

:laugh:EXACTLY:laugh:

cheachea
01-04-2010, 07:01 PM
Sorry Dave. I disagree with you almost completely on this subject.
I don't think you can coldly murder someone, then just "ask for fogiveness" and get into heaven. I think you can EARN your way into heaven by being a good person, doing good deeds and putting your best, honest effort into being a Christian. Simply asking for forgiveness on your deathbed doesn't cut it in my opinion. Spreading the gospel is a good deed, but I don't think it's the only way to get in.


The thief on the cross next to Jesus didn't live a good life when Jesus siad today you will be with Me in paradise . The thief was dying on a cross.

NateR
01-04-2010, 07:04 PM
Sorry Dave. I disagree with you almost completely on this subject.
I don't think you can coldly murder someone, then just "ask for fogiveness" and get into heaven. I think you can EARN your way into heaven by being a good person, doing good deeds and putting your best, honest effort into being a Christian. Simply asking for forgiveness on your deathbed doesn't cut it in my opinion. Spreading the gospel is a good deed, but I don't think it's the only way to get in.

Well, that would contradict the Old Testament examples of righteous men:

• Abraham married his half-sister and committed adultery with Hagar.
• Moses committed murder.
• Jacob was a con man who deliberately deceived both his father and twin brother.
• King David committed both adultery and murder.
• King Solomon was guilty of idolatry and adultery (considering that he had 700 wives and 300 concubines).

The fact that these are still considered righteous men in the Bible is evidence of the depth of GOD's forgiveness.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:05 PM
Isn't it awesome how the Bible kind of teaches both the responsibility of man and the sovereignty of God. It's like it encourages and assures us of our salvation and in the same sense warns us in the same way to repent of our sins. I think God knew that when The Holy Spirit moved in the writers so we couldn't pigeon hold the Lord. It's almost like you have to balance it out and not get to extreme to the point where you are afraid that you have lost your salvation after thinking a bad thought, but at the same time you are not out doing what ever you want thinking I'm saved I'll just ask for forgiveness later.
Ultimately I'm going to put my whole trust in the blood of Jesus Christ for my salvation and not in my fleshly attempts to live a holy life. I've found that the The Holy Spirit is the only One who can empower me to live the life God wants me to.

Excelent observations!

NateR
01-04-2010, 07:05 PM
:laugh:EXACTLY:laugh:

I think Dave has it right, it's just that his presentation sucks. :laugh:

Mark
01-04-2010, 07:06 PM
I mean exactly what I say.

GOD requires perfection. You are not perfect...Ergo Salvation cant be based on works, UNLESS noone is saved.

Thats just very simple logic. IF you can get to heaven by doing a work, you dont need Christ do you.

God wants a relationship, did you know that? Reading the Bible, praying and sometimes going to a quiet place so you can hear him talk to you. sometimes you amaze me...really.

Mark
01-04-2010, 07:09 PM
I think Dave has it right, it's just that his presentation sucks. :laugh:

If God requires perfection who is going to heaven?

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 07:09 PM
:laugh:EXACTLY:laugh:

:angry:

cheachea
01-04-2010, 07:09 PM
We must remember that are own rightousness is filthy rags to God. Isaiah 64:6

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:11 PM
So exactly what works are required to "qualify for salvation" and how do you know when you are qualified enough to ask for salvation?

I do not think that is what Eric is saying here. I think he is just stating what James said and what Paul assumed. Salvation will produce works of faith. No works then chance are no salvation and thus nothing more then a flase convert.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 07:12 PM
God wants a relationship, did you know that? Reading the Bible, praying and sometimes going to a quiet place so you can hear him talk to you. sometimes you amaze me...really.

Of Course GOD wants a relationship. What has that got to do with Works??

Tell me...is it your works that are your Salvation, or your GOD which is your Salvation?

Consider

Blessed be the Lord,
who daily bears us up;
God is our salvation. Selah
20 Our God is a God of salvation,
and to God, the Lord, belong deliverances from death. the words of Psalm 68 :ninja:

NateR
01-04-2010, 07:13 PM
If God requires perfection who is going to heaven?

Nobody, which is why we need Jesus to get us there.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 07:13 PM
I think Dave has it right, it's just that his presentation sucks. :laugh:

Noone is perfect :unsure-1:

:laugh:

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 07:14 PM
Nobody, which is why we need Jesus.

:laugh: EXACTLY :laugh:

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 07:15 PM
If God requires perfection who is going to heaven?

You are. You believe in Christ. Through your justification his righteousness is imputed to you.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:17 PM
If God requires perfection who is going to heaven?

Yes he requires perfection thus why Jesus is the only way to heaven. In Him we are perfect. He paid the fine. So it is our faith in him that saves us. And he told us how to be saved as instructed by John. If you love me then you will keep my commandments. So those are requirement per se, but I think that is a rabbit trail form your original question about keeping ones salvation.

billwilliams70
01-04-2010, 07:17 PM
Once you are saved, then you are incapable of committing the unpardonable sin. So, no, you can never lose your salvation. Ever.

The way I've always understood it is, if there is nothing good enough we can do to earn our salvation, then there can be nothing bad enough that we can do to lose our salvation. It's just simple logic.
I think that Nate said it best with this post right here.

We have to keep Mark's original question in mind when answering and posting.

Mark never said anything (unless it came later and I missed it) about not getting into heaven. He asked about losing our salvation.
If God requires perfection who is going to heaven?
Nobody, which is why we need Jesus to get us there.
Another good one from Nate. Mark asked the question about going to heaven this time, but it was a direct connection to God's required perfection, not our salvation.....which isn't tied together. We don't become perfect upon salvation and we don't need to be perfect to gain salvation....we simply need to have faith in God.


Later.

NateR
01-04-2010, 07:20 PM
We must remember that are own rightousness is filthy rags to God. Isaiah 64:6

That's a great verse to combat self-righteousness. Just think of the most caring, generous, and giving person that you personally know; then realize that, without Christ, that person's life is as disgusting and repulsive to GOD as a feces-soaked rag would be to us.

Mark
01-04-2010, 07:22 PM
Yes he requires perfection thus why Jesus is the only way to heaven. In Him we are perfect. He paid the fine. So it is our faith in him that saves us. And he told us how to be saved as instructed by John. If you love me then you will keep my commandments. So those are requirement per se, but I think that is a rabbit trail form your original question about keeping ones salvation.

Thank you for answering.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:23 PM
That's a great verse to combat self-righteousness. Just think of the most caring, generous, and giving person that you personally know; then realize that, without Christ, that person's life is as disgusting and repulsive to GOD as a feces-soaked rag would be to us.

When I am out street witnessing I use this verse when they say I am a good person so God won't send me to hell

billwilliams70
01-04-2010, 07:27 PM
We must remember that are own rightousness is filthy rags to God. Isaiah 64:6

That's a great verse to combat self-righteousness. Just think of the most caring, generous, and giving person that you personally know; then realize that, without Christ, that person's life is as disgusting and repulsive to GOD as a feces-soaked rag would be to us.

When I am out street witnessing I use this verse when they say I am a good person so God won't send me to hell
This thread of conversation is some of the best stuff said in this whole thread.

I like the "good people" theory, but it's scary to think that it's something that they actually believe.

Later.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:30 PM
here is a link to a Q&A page for a pastor friend of mine from youtube whom I have had many hours of constructive debate with. He is a Calvinist so he is once saved always saved. But he is a very well spoken man who is respectful and well read. This link might help. He will I am sure be happy to respond personally as well by E mail. Many of these Q&A's were birthed by our debates.

http://www.salvationbygrace.org/default.aspx?ct=sub/qa

Mark
01-04-2010, 07:31 PM
Of Course GOD wants a relationship. What has that got to do with Works??
Matt. 7: 17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Tell me...is it your works that are your Salvation, or your GOD which is your Salvation?
Im not a works get you to heaven guy, but I do want good fruit. Do you?

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:33 PM
This thread of conversation is some of the best stuff said in this whole thread.

I like the "good people" theory, but it's scary to think that it's something that they actually believe.

Later.

I think you would like the show The Way of the Master. Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort go to public streets and share Jesus and the usually ask people do you consider yourself to be a good person. Then show them by God's standards none of us are. Then they take them through the 10 commandments and many are surprised they have not kept any of them.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:34 PM
Matt. 7: 17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.



Im not a work get you to heaven guy, but I do want good fruit. Do you?

Suddenly I want to go eat some pineapple :)

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 07:38 PM
Matt. 7: 17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.



Im not a work get you to heaven guy, but I do want good fruit. Do you?

Mark, go back two verses earlier. It begins in verse 15, "Beware of false prophets . . ." Scripture here is condemning false prophets who sow false doctrine.

I will let Tyburn speak for himself, but I don't think he is promoting Antinomianism

billwilliams70
01-04-2010, 07:39 PM
Matt. 7: 17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Im not a works get you to heaven guy, but I do want good fruit. Do you?
Good points sir.

You are not correlating your good works with a heavenly reward, you are simply being a "good tree" bearing good fruit. Well put.

Later.

billwilliams70
01-04-2010, 07:41 PM
I think you would like the show The Way of the Master. Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort go to public streets and share Jesus and the usually ask people do you consider yourself to be a good person. Then show them by God's standards none of us are. Then they take them through the 10 commandments and many are surprised they have not kept any of them.
Sounds cool, I'll check it out.
Suddenly I want to go eat some pineapple :)
I want some pomegranate, yum.

Later.

NateR
01-04-2010, 07:42 PM
Im not a works get you to heaven guy, but I do want good fruit. Do you?

The source of our good works is in our desire to please GOD because we love Him, not because we think we are earning "brownie points" to get us into Heaven. So, you have the right idea. Our lives as Christians should be all about producing good spiritual fruits.

In Psychology this would be known as intrinsic motivation, in other words, doing something because you want to; as opposed to extrinsic motivation, doing something because you fear punishment or expect reward.

Mark
01-04-2010, 07:42 PM
Mark, go back two verses earlier. It begins in verse 15, "Beware of false prophets . . ." Scripture here is condemning false prophets who sow false doctrine.

I will let Tyburn speak for himself, but I don't think he is promoting Antinomianism

I think you are right about the bad fruit. What is the good fruit it is talking about?

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:43 PM
Mark, go back two verses earlier. It begins in verse 15, "Beware of false prophets . . ." Scripture here is condemning false prophets who sow false doctrine.

I will let Tyburn speak for himself, but I don't think he is promoting Antinomianism

Good points these verses in their proper context are speaking to false prophets and we should judge their fruits that come from their ministry. But we must not forget that Peter teaches the priesthood of ALL believers 1 Peter 2:9 and thus all believers fruits must be judged.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 07:44 PM
Sounds cool, I'll check it out.

I want some pomegranate, yum.

Later.

No joke that sounds even better. To expensive for me though

eric84
01-04-2010, 07:49 PM
So exactly what works are required to "qualify for salvation" and how do you know when you are qualified enough to ask for salvation?

Matt 7:21- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


As far as when you know you qualify, I think that's between a person and God. Of course God is the one who determines, but if you want to know your standing with Him, why not ask Him.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 07:51 PM
Im not a works get you to heaven guy, but I do want good fruit. Do you?

Sure. But fruits have nothing to do with Salvation. Nothing to do with how you get to heaven, nothing to do with loosing salvation, which is imposible once gained.

Fruits are about Christian living AFTER Salvation...now if you want to move on and talk to me about that then fair enough...but I thought we were talking about actions/works and their relationship to salvation.

Miss Foxy
01-04-2010, 07:51 PM
I give in to sin, because I like to practice what I preach....:Whistle: And I am just trying to lighten things up so don't get all huffy and puffy people...

Mark
01-04-2010, 07:55 PM
loosing salvation, which is imposible once gained.

this is just your opinion!

NateR
01-04-2010, 07:59 PM
Matt 7:21- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


As far as when you know you qualify, I think that's between a person and God. Of course God is the one who determines, but if you want to know your standing with Him, why not ask Him.

I already know my standing.:) I'm just asking you to clarify your theology.

County Mike
01-04-2010, 08:11 PM
Well, that would contradict the Old Testament examples of righteous men:

• Abraham married his half-sister and committed adultery with Hagar.
• Moses committed murder.
• Jacob was a con man who deliberately deceived both his father and twin brother.
• King David committed both adultery and murder.
• King Solomon was guilty of idolatry and adultery (considering that he had 700 wives and 300 concubines).

The fact that these are still considered righteous men in the Bible is evidence of the depth of GOD's forgiveness.

I didn't mean to imply that a man who has sinned could not get into heaven. I just don't think the safeguard plan of "I'll do what I want now and repent on my deathbed" is good enough. If a man truely repents and then goes on to live a Christian life, I think he'd be OK.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 08:18 PM
this is just your opinion!

Oh...okay Mark...then explain...if you get your Salvation...and then you looose it...tell me what do you do to get it back again??

Do you have a second conversion Experience???

Do you have to do some work???

Make your mind up on what your actually talking about...because first you sound like your advocating a works based theology...then you say you dont believe works get you into heaven...then suddenly, your back with how you can loose salvation again

not to mention...somewhere in all that you had an offshoot that noone got about a relationship filled with fruit. :blink:

You bounce all over the subject like a Rubber Ball. Which makes it bloody impossible to reply to you :angry::laugh:

NateR
01-04-2010, 08:25 PM
I just don't think the safeguard plan of "I'll do what I want now and repent on my deathbed" is good enough.

This is just my personal opinion, but I honestly don't believe that GOD would give a person with that attitude a chance at a deathbed confession. Although, I did actually know a guy in college who believed that way. The funny (or not-so-funny) thing about it was that he rode a motorcycle everywhere he went. Offhand, I can think of several ways that a motorcyclist could die before he even had enough time to realize that he was in danger, much less having the time to confess his sins and accept Christ. It's a very dangerous and foolish theology to have.

Chris F
01-04-2010, 08:27 PM
Oh...okay Mark...then explain...if you get your Salvation...and then you looose it...tell me what do you do to get it back again??

Do you have a second conversion Experience???

Do you have to do some work???

Make your mind up on what your actually talking about...because first you sound like your advocating a works based theology...then you say you dont believe works get you into heaven...then suddenly, your back with how you can loose salvation again

not to mention...somewhere in all that you had an offshoot that noone got about a relationship filled with fruit. :blink:

You bounce all over the subject like a Rubber Ball. Which makes it bloody impossible to reply to you :angry::laugh:

You did it now Mark. Prepare to be Vloged by Dave now. :)

Preach
01-04-2010, 08:32 PM
Yes it is my belief that one can. In most text we can read where Jesus says Depart for I never knew you but in one scripture he simply says Depart I know you not.
This is the parable of the 10 Virgins 5 foolish and 5 wise. All had lamps but only 5 had oil. But I will say I feel that it would take alot to turn from God. But it is my belief that one can and that is a scary place. I am including the scriptures in my post please share with me your take!
Matthew Chapter 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. gone out: or, going out9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

CAVEMAN
01-04-2010, 08:52 PM
I do not believe you can lose your salvation AND I also believe that Scripture teaches this truth. If you are truly saved, GOD will see to it that you are sealed till the day of redemption. Faith is the confident conviction that GOD is who HE says HE is and that HE will do what HE says he will do.

Phillipians 1: 6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 1: 13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

There are 2 things GOD cannot do: LIE and SIN! So if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then you are saying that GOD lied in these verses of Holy Scripture.

Miss Foxy
01-04-2010, 08:54 PM
Oh...okay Mark...then explain...if you get your Salvation...and then you looose it...tell me what do you do to get it back again??

Do you have a second conversion Experience???

Do you have to do some work???

Make your mind up on what your actually talking about...because first you sound like your advocating a works based theology...then you say you dont believe works get you into heaven...then suddenly, your back with how you can loose salvation again

not to mention...somewhere in all that you had an offshoot that noone got about a relationship filled with fruit. :blink:

You bounce all over the subject like a Rubber Ball. Which makes it bloody impossible to reply to you :angry::laugh:

Mark is gonna get you in your sleep.. Be careful to not close your eyes Dave..:scared0011: lol!!

billwilliams70
01-04-2010, 08:58 PM
The underlying question seems to be how do we gain our salvation?

If it's through faith and faith alone, then one can lose their faith.....so does that mean one can lose their salvation as a result of losing their faith?

Later.

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 09:09 PM
You did it now Mark. Prepare to be Vloged by Dave now. :)

:laugh: Its too late...ive already done my blog this week :sad:

Tyburn
01-04-2010, 09:10 PM
Mark is gonna get you in your sleep.. Be careful to not close your eyes Dave..:scared0011: lol!!

:ninja: Tar and Feathers Miss Foxy...Tar and Feathers.... :mellow:

and famous last words :unsure:

:laugh:

CAVEMAN
01-04-2010, 09:26 PM
The underlying question seems to be how do we gain our salvation?

If it's through faith and faith alone, then one can lose their faith.....so does that mean one can lose their salvation as a result of losing their faith?

Later.

If one has true faith, GOD will not let them fall away. Just as an earthly father corrects his children, so will our Heavenly Father correct us!

Bonnie
01-04-2010, 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamt
Also...

If you can lose your salvation, does He erase your name from the Book of Life? And what if you get saved again? Does it keep getting erased and put back? And does He remember the sins He forgot at your point of salvation? Does He dredge them up from the depths of the sea just to list them in your account to hold you accountable for them on the day of Judgement?


Well according to Hebrews 6:4-6....

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

...if you can lose your salvation and you do lose it, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it back. That's it. You're damed for all eternity. If that's the case, then it would be better to never get saved, because at least then you would have a chance at salvation.

Nate, I took you to answer Mark's original ? about "losing salvation" as, "NO, you cannot lose your salvation."

But, then you posted the above from Hebrews in response to adamt and that quote and what you say, "if you can lose....and do lose it...." seemed to contradict your earlier answer. It confused me... Could you explain?

billwilliams70
01-04-2010, 09:42 PM
If one has true faith, GOD will not let them fall away. Just as an earthly father corrects his children, so will our Heavenly Father correct us!
Very true.

Later.

Bonnie
01-04-2010, 09:59 PM
If one has true faith, GOD will not let them fall away. Just as an earthly father corrects his children, so will our Heavenly Father correct us!


I think this too. I don't think you can lose your salvation if you are a true believer. I think that the scripture Mark quoted from Matthew (below) speaks to this. I think it is referring to the true believer and the false believer:


Originally posted by Mark
Matt. 7: 17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

NateR
01-04-2010, 10:16 PM
Nate, I took you to answer Mark's original ? about "losing salvation" as, "NO, you cannot lose your salvation."

But, then you posted the above from Hebrews in response to adamt and that quote and what you say, "if you can lose....and do lose it...." seemed to contradict your earlier answer. It confused me... Could you explain?

Well, the second post you quoted was more of a hypothetical. Basically, I was making the point that IF you can lose your salvation, then the Bible is very clear that you are never going to get it back. I think the author of Hebrews is saying, in a round about kind of way, that you can't lose your salvation (as evidenced by the conclusion of Hebrews chapter 6). Because if you can, then it's impossible to get it back. Thus you are worse off than you were before accepting Christ and that just doesn't fit within the character of GOD.

Neezar
01-04-2010, 10:17 PM
I think this too. I don't think you can lose your salvation if you are a true believer. I think that the scripture Mark quoted from Matthew (below) speaks to this. I think it is referring to the true believer and the false believer:

Originally posted by Mark
Matt. 7: 17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


So you don't believe that anyone who has ever been a believer can bring forth evil? That a good tree can not become corrupt? :unsure-1:

What about a preacher who goes off and kills his family? Does this mean he never truly believed in God? Or must the killing have been a good fruit? :unsure-1:


I believe that people can lose faith, Be a believing Christian and choose to walk in the dark, or be raised a believer of Christ and then decide there is no God and deny Him.

Neezar
01-04-2010, 10:18 PM
If one has true faith, GOD will not let them fall away. Just as an earthly father corrects his children, so will our Heavenly Father correct us!

So once you are saved then God removes your free will?

Jonlion
01-04-2010, 10:27 PM
Holiness is descripbed by all the biblical writers in the New Testament. Todays bible teacher try to make it like we do not have to live right or obey God's commands if we said a little prayers as a child. hope this explained it better if not let me know.

Thanks for the reply Chris, I just wanted to see exactly what you were saying about good fruit! I think it can be easily miscontrude!

But thanks brother

Preach
01-04-2010, 10:41 PM
So once you are saved then God removes your free will?

Good point D

Jonlion
01-04-2010, 10:43 PM
We must remember that there is nothing we can do or give to God that he wants or needs because it is all his!

And once we grant that concept that we are nothing without him then we can produce the "good fruit".

We will all sin, we will all falter and the wonderful uplifting thing is that we have Jesus who has already paid for all of our sins. It is why Paul is such an amazing man, this abhorrent murderer and persecutor, pride filled and arrogant who commits horrible sins stands out as one of the most devout men of god. Who even in all his excellent works asked to be crucified upside down because he was not worthy of christs death!

For me, I believe that if we repent with a contrite heart at any point we shall be saved. Furthermore, and it takes time, the more we press into the lord, the more we love Jesus, the less we will sin, the more good fruit we shall produce.

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 10:52 PM
We must remember that there is nothing we can do or give to God that he wants or needs because it is all his!

And once we grant that concept that we are nothing without him then we can produce the "good fruit".

We will all sin, we will all falter and the wonderful uplifting thing is that we have Jesus who has already paid for all of our sins. It is why Paul is such an amazing man, this abhorrent murderer and persecutor, pride filled and arrogant who commits horrible sins stands out as one of the most devout men of god. Who even in all his excellent works asked to be crucified upside down because he was not worthy of christs death!

For me, I believe that if we repent with a contrite heart at any point we shall be saved. Furthermore, and it takes time, the more we press into the lord, the more we love Jesus, the less we will sin, the more good fruit we shall produce.

Excellent point.

As a small point of correction, reportedly it was Peter who requested to be crucified upside-down. Paul was a Roman citizen and was likely beheaded as a method of execution.

Jonlion
01-04-2010, 11:06 PM
Excellent point.

As a small point of correction, reportedly it was Peter who requested to be crucified upside-down. Paul was a Roman citizen and was likely beheaded as a method of execution.

just testing ya'll!!!!!

Humbly stand corrected, been getting my wires crossed!

Llamafighter
01-04-2010, 11:19 PM
I thought the parable about the Prodigal Son was all about this very subject. I'm sort of depending on this being the case.

Bonnie
01-04-2010, 11:29 PM
So you don't believe that anyone who has ever been a believer can bring forth evil? That a good tree can not become corrupt? :unsure-1

What about a preacher who goes off and kills his family? Does this mean he never truly believed in God? Or must the killing have been a good fruit? :unsure-1:


I believe that people can lose faith, Be a believing Christian and choose to walk in the dark, or be raised a believer of Christ and then decide there is no God and deny Him.

Well, I did pose the ? in an earlier post, "Can a Christian stumble or still sin?"

Maybe the answer is, "yes" to "can" because of that "free will" God gives us. But will a person who is a Christian walking in Christ "choose" to sin (his will) or choose God's will. God gives us the free will to choose in everything we do, but He wants us to choose Him in all things, right(?).

God already knows what is in each of our hearts. If we are true or false, produce good fruit or bad fruit. Can a good person kill? Yes. Can a man who was raised to believe in God and His commandments commit adultery? Yes. Nathan's earlier post about Solomon and Paul and Moses committing acts of murder, adultery, idolatry...speaks to this.

I think maybe your ?s speak to a person/people who present themselves as saved and doing good works (the preacher), but were never saved in the first place. Like when Mark mentioned Hitler...

I don't think you can lose your salvation. But, I'm just a flawed imperfect human, what do I know. :wink: I guess we will all find out at the same time when Jesus comes. :)

Bonnie
01-04-2010, 11:40 PM
So once you are saved then God removes your free will?

Maybe it's not about God removing it so much as in choosing to be saved, you are giving up your will and choosing God's will.

Play The Man
01-04-2010, 11:42 PM
I think you are right about the bad fruit. What is the good fruit it is talking about?

I would say true doctrine which leads to fruits of repentance in the hearers of the true doctrine.

I think that all Christians should practice good deeds. I am just trying to stress that the good deeds are an effect of something that Christ did for you; the good deeds are not a cause of your salvation.

ianfer
01-04-2010, 11:48 PM
Whether or not we can lose our salvation is only understood if we understand the process of our salvation. Out of the process of salvation (Romans 8:29, ) we can break down our spiritual relationship with God and discern this.

Foreknowledge  Predestination  Calling  Justification  Glorification

There are two possible points of reasoning to support the idea that you cannot lose your salvation. First is drawn from the first three (Foreknowing, Predestination, and Calling) the Second is drawn from the Justification and the process therein (Justification, Regeneration, and Sanctification)

First – Foreknowing, Predestination, and Calling

The idea that we could lose our salvation was completely lost on Reformers such as Calvin and even could be seen as early from what I know of as Augustine who, though he started off as a synergist, eventually became a monergist (God is solely responsible for the salvation of sinners).

The Fifth Point against Arminianism from Calvinists is the Perseverance of All Saints for good reason, it flows organically from the first 4 points.

People who are Reformed (maybe you can find some interviews with them or sermons by them)Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, John Piper, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, and Tim Keller.

This would be a huge topic to go into and would probably not be the best way to talk to someone about eternal security, but it does work.

Second – Justification, Regeneration, and Sanctification

The idea here is that once you are justified (declared not guilty of sin before God) your soul immediately goes through Regeneration (made into a new creation) and you start the process of Sanctification (conforming your mind to Jesus). Once you are a Regenerated you cannot become “unsaved” just like you cannot become unborn once you have been born.

Justification – Rom. 3:21-22, 4:4-6, 5:12-21, 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor 5:21; Phil. 3:8-9, 1 Pet. 2:24, 3:18

Regeneration –
Since the heart is the seat and center of our identity, which expresses itself in word and deed, regeneration at the heart is a fundamental change in our nature as seen with Jer 24: 7, 31:31-33, 32:39-40; Ezek 11:19-20, Ezek 36:26-27
and in the new Testament regeneration is described as being born again with John 1:13, 1 Pet 1:3, 1 Pet, 1:23, 1 John 5:1 as well as other descriptions in 2 Pet 1:4, 2 Cor 5:17, Eph. 2:15, 4:24, Eph 2:5, Col 2:13, Eph 2:10.
This Regeneration is done because as a gift of grace as described in Titus 3:5

What Regeneration does in our life-
-- New Creation with a new mind – 2 Corinthians 5:17, Gal 6:15, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, Romans 7:4-6.
-- New Creation produces good fruit – Matthew 7:15-20, James 2:14-26

So, becoming saved regenerates the soul and then produces good works.

What if someone does not produce good works after they claim to be saved?
1. We cannot pass final judgment on if they are saved because we cannot know someone else’s heart. (Matthew 7:1 , 1 Samuel 16:7)

2. It could be that they are saved and we cannot see their fruits of the spirit. Maybe they were going to kill someone but thought that it would not please God so they go out to the bar and maybe end up getting drunk…we look at them and say “oh they are not saved because they are getting drunk, but maybe they are a new Christian and are just trying to not kill someone” hehe, maybe you get what im trying to say…you just cant say with ultimate certainty that someone else is not saved and you cannot tell with ultimate certainty how the holy spirit is working in their life if they are saved.

3. It could be that they were never saved. People put up good masks and act like they are saved and know how to “walk the walk” so maybe they are just pretending. Think about 1 John 2:19

Saying that someone could be un-born after he was born, is ridiculous. Saying that someone could be deformed back into their old life after being regenerated is silly. The very act of being saved transforms a person in such a way that it transforms their very heart which will slowly work at sanctifying the person. Like I said, if the person does not seem to be changing in the fruit they are producing, maybe the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in their life is subtle and is working out very slowly but who are you to condemn them?----or maybe they were never a Christian.


Links of awesomeness-
http://www.carm.org/apologetics/apologetics-dialogues/can-you-lose-your-salvation

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

Chris F
01-05-2010, 12:29 AM
Whether or not we can lose our salvation is only understood if we understand the process of our salvation. Out of the process of salvation (Romans 8:29, ) we can break down our spiritual relationship with God and discern this.

Foreknowledge  Predestination  Calling  Justification  Glorification

There are two possible points of reasoning to support the idea that you cannot lose your salvation. First is drawn from the first three (Foreknowing, Predestination, and Calling) the Second is drawn from the Justification and the process therein (Justification, Regeneration, and Sanctification)

First – Foreknowing, Predestination, and Calling

The idea that we could lose our salvation was completely lost on Reformers such as Calvin and even could be seen as early from what I know of as Augustine who, though he started off as a synergist, eventually became a monergist (God is solely responsible for the salvation of sinners).

The Fifth Point against Arminianism from Calvinists is the Perseverance of All Saints for good reason, it flows organically from the first 4 points.

People who are Reformed (maybe you can find some interviews with them or sermons by them)Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, John Piper, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, and Tim Keller.

This would be a huge topic to go into and would probably not be the best way to talk to someone about eternal security, but it does work.

Second – Justification, Regeneration, and Sanctification

The idea here is that once you are justified (declared not guilty of sin before God) your soul immediately goes through Regeneration (made into a new creation) and you start the process of Sanctification (conforming your mind to Jesus). Once you are a Regenerated you cannot become “unsaved” just like you cannot become unborn once you have been born.

Justification – Rom. 3:21-22, 4:4-6, 5:12-21, 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor 5:21; Phil. 3:8-9, 1 Pet. 2:24, 3:18

Regeneration –
Since the heart is the seat and center of our identity, which expresses itself in word and deed, regeneration at the heart is a fundamental change in our nature as seen with Jer 24: 7, 31:31-33, 32:39-40; Ezek 11:19-20, Ezek 36:26-27
and in the new Testament regeneration is described as being born again with John 1:13, 1 Pet 1:3, 1 Pet, 1:23, 1 John 5:1 as well as other descriptions in 2 Pet 1:4, 2 Cor 5:17, Eph. 2:15, 4:24, Eph 2:5, Col 2:13, Eph 2:10.
This Regeneration is done because as a gift of grace as described in Titus 3:5

What Regeneration does in our life-
-- New Creation with a new mind – 2 Corinthians 5:17, Gal 6:15, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, Romans 7:4-6.
-- New Creation produces good fruit – Matthew 7:15-20, James 2:14-26

So, becoming saved regenerates the soul and then produces good works.

What if someone does not produce good works after they claim to be saved?
1. We cannot pass final judgment on if they are saved because we cannot know someone else’s heart. (Matthew 7:1 , 1 Samuel 16:7)

2. It could be that they are saved and we cannot see their fruits of the spirit. Maybe they were going to kill someone but thought that it would not please God so they go out to the bar and maybe end up getting drunk…we look at them and say “oh they are not saved because they are getting drunk, but maybe they are a new Christian and are just trying to not kill someone” hehe, maybe you get what im trying to say…you just cant say with ultimate certainty that someone else is not saved and you cannot tell with ultimate certainty how the holy spirit is working in their life if they are saved.

3. It could be that they were never saved. People put up good masks and act like they are saved and know how to “walk the walk” so maybe they are just pretending. Think about 1 John 2:19

Saying that someone could be un-born after he was born, is ridiculous. Saying that someone could be deformed back into their old life after being regenerated is silly. The very act of being saved transforms a person in such a way that it transforms their very heart which will slowly work at sanctifying the person. Like I said, if the person does not seem to be changing in the fruit they are producing, maybe the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in their life is subtle and is working out very slowly but who are you to condemn them?----or maybe they were never a Christian.


Links of awesomeness-
http://www.carm.org/apologetics/apologetics-dialogues/can-you-lose-your-salvation

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

Very well said. However this entire line of thinking requires a preconceived belief in Calvinism. Theology is a slippery slope. I think the best thing we can do is live every second like it is our last and be prepared to meet or savior and not worry about toeing the proverbial line or worry if we were somehow predestined (which God is sovereign so I agree we are). Plain and simple I think we can all agree we should live like we are followers and our fruits should prove it.

Bonnie
01-05-2010, 12:38 AM
I've always wondered how predestination and free will fit together in our lives? :unsure-1:

que
01-05-2010, 12:56 AM
i have not seen one quote from the bible where it says someone can lose their salvation. i'm sure if someone looked hard enough and tried hard enough they can find some abstract verse and try to twist it to imply something like that, but you can do that with just about any subject if you try.

can someone please find me a direct quote where it the bible says a man can lose his salvation in Jesus Christ?

and no more of this "well it is my belief that.." let's see a real quote and verse number

Chris F
01-05-2010, 01:02 AM
i have not seen one quote from the bible where it says someone can lose their salvation. i'm sure if someone looked hard enough and tried hard enough they can find some abstract verse and try to twist it to imply something like that, but you can do that with just about any subject if you try.

can someone please find me a direct quote where it the bible says a man can lose his salvation in Jesus Christ?

and no more of this "well it is my belief that.." let's see a real quote and verse number

I quoted 2 pages worth and I got a lot more and Mark quotes some as well. SO either you are not reading or you just missed them

Neezar
01-05-2010, 01:09 AM
I quoted 2 pages worth and I got a lot more and Mark quotes some as well. SO either you are not reading or you just missed them

I didn't check them all out but I will. I was raised believing that you can lose your salvation. I'm not sure if I could change my mind. But it is an interesting subject.

Chris F
01-05-2010, 01:15 AM
I didn't check them all out but I will. I was raised believing that you can lose your salvation. I'm not sure if I could change my mind. But it is an interesting subject.

As I said earlier not sure loose is the best term. I do not htink you can "loose" it. I do think however you can choose to walk away. I.e. the prodigal Son parable

Neezar
01-05-2010, 01:15 AM
We must remember that there is nothing we can do or give to God that he wants or needs because it is all his!



I hope you are referring to material things here. As in God wants nothing material from us. Because I believe that God wants a LOT from us.

Boomer
01-05-2010, 01:23 AM
Can I Lose My Salvation after I was saved?

No .....

Chris F
01-05-2010, 01:46 AM
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If(In Greek Grammar this implies it is possible) they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (loose faith "loose" salvation)
I Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

I Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

II Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

II Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

II Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
.

I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 1:13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

In Context of the entirety of scripture we read this from the OT

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

NateR
01-05-2010, 02:12 AM
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If(In Greek Grammar this implies it is possible) they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

It's interesting that you would quote this chapter as proof that you can lose your salvation; but seem to ignore the consequences described in the verse.

With this in mind, I've been meaning to ask you about this comment from a couple of pages back:

When I am out street witnessing I use this verse when they say I am a good person so God won't send me to hell

Do you really believe that GOD would send you to Hell for something as trivial as accepting a false compliment? If you can really lose your salvation over such a minor sin and you're never getting it back, according to Hebrews 6:4-6, then that would make salvation into more of a cosmic practical joke than a demonstration of GOD's infinite mercy.

Chris F
01-05-2010, 02:15 AM
It's interesting that you would quote this chapter as proof that you can lose your salvation; but seem to ignore the consequences described in the verse.

With this in mind, I've been meaning to ask you about this comment from a couple of pages back:



Do you really believe that GOD would send you to Hell for something as trivial as accepting a false compliment? If you can really lose your salvation over such a minor sin and you're never getting it back, according to Hebrews 6:4-6, then that would make salvation into more of a cosmic practical joke than a demonstration of GOD's infinite mercy.

Nate I quoted the verse to show the Greek implies it is possible. Nothing more then that. I think you are reading more into it then need be.

NateR
01-05-2010, 02:34 AM
If God requires perfection...

I'm a little late, but here is the verse:

Matthew 5:48:
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The only way into Heaven is perfection.

...who is going to heaven?

The disciples wondered the same thing:

Mark 10:26-27:
The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Which is exactly why we need Jesus.

ianfer
01-05-2010, 03:35 AM
ya, sorry that my post was really long. my post was in two parts,

part two was to arminians (assuming that a person chooses to be saved) -- my point was this.

After justification the soul (or heart) undergoes a fundamental change. That is why the Bible uses terms like born again and new creation.

John 1:13, 1 Pet 1:3, 1 Pet, 1:23, 1 John 5:1 as well as other descriptions in 2 Pet 1:4, 2 Cor 5:17, Eph. 2:15, 4:24, Eph 2:5, Col 2:13, Eph 2:10
2 Corinthians 5:17, Gal 6:15, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, Romans 7:4-6.

a person can never go back on this process just as a butterfly can never go back to be a caterpillar.

if a person seems to have gone back to their old life or have not changed it is either...1, the H.S. is moving in subtle ways, which we cannot condemn them because God can only see their heart (1 Sam 16:7)or 2. they were never saved (1 John 2:19).

for more bible references refer to previous

Chris F
01-05-2010, 03:40 AM
ya, sorry that my post was really long. my post was in two parts,

part two was to arminians (assuming that a person chooses to be saved) -- my point was this.

After justification the soul (or heart) undergoes a fundamental change. That is why the Bible uses terms like born again and new creation.

John 1:13, 1 Pet 1:3, 1 Pet, 1:23, 1 John 5:1 as well as other descriptions in 2 Pet 1:4, 2 Cor 5:17, Eph. 2:15, 4:24, Eph 2:5, Col 2:13, Eph 2:10
2 Corinthians 5:17, Gal 6:15, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, Romans 7:4-6.

a person can never go back on this process just as a butterfly can never go back to be a caterpillar.

if a person seems to have gone back to their old life or have not changed it is either...1, the H.S. is moving in subtle ways, which we cannot condemn them because God can only see their heart (1 Sam 16:7)or 2. they were never saved (1 John 2:19).

for more bible references refer to previous
See like the trinity I think people will always scratch their heads on this. I agree with what you said here and I think at the core we all agree on the same thing. God is God we are not and Jesus is the only way.

ianfer
01-05-2010, 03:46 AM
i dont have time to look up all these verses =( but revelation 3:5 interested me.

but that verse says that the person had overcome and will be dressed in white, his name is in the book of life where it will never be blotted out. i dont get how it is saying that people do get blotted out. it seems like it is being read into it.

Llamafighter
01-05-2010, 03:48 AM
No .....

motor mouth...:laugh:

que
01-05-2010, 03:49 AM
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

well that settles it, we are ALL going to hell and we have all lost our salvation because we have all surely sinned against God.

this is old news man. you cannot seriously believe everything in the old testament still applies. do you also honestly believe that anyone who touches a woman on their period will be unclean, and anything she touches will be unclean? do you also still believe that any creature that crawls on the ground or squats on its belly is detestable and should not be eaten for it is unclean also? if you have ever eaten chicken then you and i are going to hell, according to your failed logic.

Chris F
01-05-2010, 03:55 AM
well that settles it, we are ALL going to hell and we have all lost our salvation because we have all surely sinned against God.

this is old news man. you cannot seriously believe everything in the old testament still applies. do you also honestly believe that anyone who touches a woman on their period will be unclean, and anything she touches will be unclean? do you also still believe that any creature that crawls on the ground or squats on its belly is detestable and should not be eaten for it is unclean also? if you have ever eaten chicken then you and i are going to hell, according to your failed logic.

I think you have a reading problem. Did you not read the context from the New Testament. Also FYI the OT is just as much applicable to our salvation as the NT is. If you think different then you call Jesus and Paul a liar since they quoted it all the time. I think you are so eager to uphold your man made theology that you have shut your eyes to God's own word. Yes w/o Jesus we are all going to Hell. This is why we must forfeit our will and serve in His will. You cannot be a willful sinner and do that. :)

Chris F
01-05-2010, 03:59 AM
well that settles it, we are ALL going to hell and we have all lost our salvation because we have all surely sinned against God.

this is old news man. you cannot seriously believe everything in the old testament still applies. do you also honestly believe that anyone who touches a woman on their period will be unclean, and anything she touches will be unclean? do you also still believe that any creature that crawls on the ground or squats on its belly is detestable and should not be eaten for it is unclean also? if you have ever eaten chicken then you and i are going to hell, according to your failed logic.

BTW the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Chrsit and his work on the cross so yes you can eat shellfish and pork. That is a tired arguement and since you brought up logic what you did is called a strawman and it is a fallacy. Please try to be more civil and try using scripture. That is after all what you demanded is it not?

que
01-05-2010, 04:09 AM
I think you have a reading problem.

i'm sorry but personal insults on my reading skills won't win you any points on an internet debate buddy. thats the oldest attack in the book - someone disagrees with you, go after their "reading skills" not going there, especially with you.


Also FYI the OT is just as much applicable to our salvation as the NT is.


um, some of it is, but alot of it isn't. thus i beg you to answer my two previous questions again. go back and read my questions, then come back and answer them.




I think you are so eager to uphold your man made theology that you have shut your eyes to God's own word.

don't put words into my mouth.

man made theology? don't be silly. you are not even making sense, dude. you are retarded.

Mark
01-05-2010, 04:17 AM
dude. you are retarded.

Lets not start name calling. We all know that he is not retarded, he can operate a computer.

Chris F
01-05-2010, 05:05 AM
Lets not start name calling. We all know that he is not retarded, he can operate a computer.

:laugh: not very well however.:laugh:

Jonlion
01-05-2010, 11:49 AM
I hope you are referring to material things here. As in God wants nothing material from us. Because I believe that God wants a LOT from us.

Yes I mean material things!!!!!

In that nothing we can create or make as splendid as it may be is nothing because it is all his.

adamt
01-05-2010, 01:24 PM
mark i need a recap....

what exactly are we debating right now? Where are you at? I know what the debate started as, but where is it now? TMI to process for me.


if you lose your sunglasses, but find out that they were on top of your head the whole time, were they really lost?

and rhetorically speaking.....

can you lose something you never had?

adamt
01-05-2010, 01:30 PM
okay if He gives you spiritual life then takes it away is He then giving you spirital death? or spiritually killing you?


Do you have to recieve believers baptism every time you get saved?

If He cleanses you when you are saved, does he decleanse you or dirty you when you are desaved.

And if you are saved again, is it fair to say you are saved, i think you should have to refer to yourself as "resaved".

Llamafighter
01-05-2010, 01:30 PM
Lets not start name calling. We all know that he is not retarded, he can operate a computer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D910-SMbQ0&NR=1

adamt
01-05-2010, 01:34 PM
The underlying question seems to be how do we gain our salvation?

If it's through faith and faith alone, then one can lose their faith.....so does that mean one can lose their salvation as a result of losing their faith?

Later.

actually it is by grace and you would have to lose grace to lose salvation, which makes the question, will God renigh His grace?

adamt
01-05-2010, 01:38 PM
I've always wondered how predestination and free will fit together in our lives? :unsure-1:

easy, we are predestined to be saved and have the free will to change your destiny.... to deny your destiny...


so

FULFILL YOUR DESTINY.............GET SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh:

Neezar
01-05-2010, 02:09 PM
okay if He gives you spiritual life then takes it away is He then giving you spirital death? or spiritually killing you?


Do you have to recieve believers baptism every time you get saved?

If He cleanses you when you are saved, does he decleanse you or dirty you when you are desaved.

And if you are saved again, is it fair to say you are saved, i think you should have to refer to yourself as "resaved".

Or how about "I am a three time born again Christian." :laugh:

adamt
01-05-2010, 03:38 PM
Or how about "I am a three time born again Christian." :laugh:

:laugh:thats pretty good

CAVEMAN
01-05-2010, 04:42 PM
So once you are saved then God removes your free will?

By no means! Once you are saved, you are a child of GOD. Now growing up, my parents gave me plenty of free will, however, they also expected me to obey their rules. GOD deals with us the same way. He still gives us free will, but GOD expects his children to obey. And if we don't, he will take us to the "woodshed", so to speak, for correction. And in some cases, if we do not heed his correction, he will take us home. I believe it was Adrian Rogers who used this analogy:

A parent takes his child to a friends birthday party. During the party, the child starts acting up. The child messed up the cake by sticking his fingers in the icing. The child would not share toys with the other kids. The child opened his friends birthday gifts. The child would push and smack other kids at the party. Despite multiple corrections from the parent, the child kept acting up. Finally the parent said to the child, "Come on, I'm taking you home. I will not have you stay here and ruin my good name!"

GOD will do the same to his children if they continue to ignore his corrections.

Neezar
01-05-2010, 04:46 PM
By no means! Once you are saved, you are a child of GOD. Now growing up, my parents gave me plenty of free will, however, they also expected me to obey their rules. GOD deals with us the same way. He still gives us free will, but GOD expects his children to obey. And if we don't, he will take us to the "woodshed", so to speak, for correction. And in some cases, if we do not heed his correction, he will take us home. I believe it was Adrian Rogers who used this analogy:

A parent takes his child to a friends birthday party. During the party, the child starts acting up. The child messed up the cake by sticking his fingers in the icing. The child would not share toys with the other kids. The child opened his friends birthday gifts. The child would push and smack other kids at the party. Despite multiple corrections from the parent, the child kept acting up. Finally the parent said to the child, "Come on, I'm taking you home. I will not have you stay here and ruin my good name!"

GOD will do the same to his children if they continue to ignore his corrections.

So, if you act bad enough you will get your heavenly rewards early? :unsure-1:

Spiritwalker
01-05-2010, 04:57 PM
WoW!!!!! I really do like this analogy.....


By no means! Once you are saved, you are a child of GOD. Now growing up, my parents gave me plenty of free will, however, they also expected me to obey their rules. GOD deals with us the same way. He still gives us free will, but GOD expects his children to obey. And if we don't, he will take us to the "woodshed", so to speak, for correction. And in some cases, if we do not heed his correction, he will take us home. I believe it was Adrian Rogers who used this analogy:

A parent takes his child to a friends birthday party. During the party, the child starts acting up. The child messed up the cake by sticking his fingers in the icing. The child would not share toys with the other kids. The child opened his friends birthday gifts. The child would push and smack other kids at the party. Despite multiple corrections from the parent, the child kept acting up. Finally the parent said to the child, "Come on, I'm taking you home. I will not have you stay here and ruin my good name!"

GOD will do the same to his children if they continue to ignore his corrections.

Spiritwalker
01-05-2010, 05:06 PM
OK.. I don't normally post here.. but I do read a lot here....

And as I was re-re-reading this thread.. I remembered a movie.. and in some areas it applies.. some it doesn't.

Constantine

John Constantine, killed himself, saw hell, and came back. For the reast of his life is dispatches demons to "earn his way into heaven" upon his death.


Now what I wonder.. is this.

If Constantine followed the word of God and was a beliver.. but committed a sin in killing himself.. and was "dammed" upon his death.. but came back..

Going by the film.. Did he lose his salvation?

And is this the case in real world senerios... The "clinicly dead" that have come back.. Where they dead.. and if they did "see hell.. or the light".. do they have a chance to balance the scales again?

And yes I know it's a movie.. but it does make for an interesting discussion.

CAVEMAN
01-05-2010, 05:10 PM
I just have to give my 2 cents here on the prodigal son. I cannot believe anyone would use this parable as evidence that a person can lose their salvation. The prodigal son is a perfect example of a Christian who turned his back on GOD for worldly lusts and pleasures. THAT does not mean he was no longer saved. Look where his sin took him before he returned home and repented. I believe that parable was an example of GODS correction in the believers life. Once we are saved, we still have the old flesh and we are still capable of sinning. But GOD will correct us via trials and tribulations. That is how we grow!

If one can lose their salvation because of backsliding into sin, I pose you with this:

I once heard a preacher say that if there is ever a moment in your life where you loved GOD more than you do right now, you are backsliden! Now I don't know about you, but I have to ask GOD everyday to help me love him, somedays that love is strong, other days it is not. Have I lost my salvation? If you struggle with this same problem have you lost your salvation?

I think if we are all honest with ourselves, there is not a person on this forum or on the world wide web who can say they do not struggle with this! Did JESUS die in vain because we all struggle with loving HIM and keeping his commandments. This is something we all struggle with everyday. Does that mean that none of us are saved? Who could be saved?

CAVEMAN
01-05-2010, 05:28 PM
So, if you act bad enough you will get your heavenly rewards early? :unsure-1:

Even though this child was continually acting bad, it did not change the fact that he was still the child of that parent. And that parent still took the child home. But do you think there were rewards waiting for him or her when they got home? Yes, there will be heavenly rewards based on our works, not our salvation.

CAVEMAN
01-05-2010, 05:41 PM
Again, if one believes that they can lose their salvation, then they need to explain away these verses:

Phillipians 1: 6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 1: 13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

billwilliams70
01-05-2010, 06:06 PM
Way to go Mark, you've certainly opened up a can of worms with this debate. :D

What I think is funny, and a bit alarming.....is that we all believe the same thing. There is one God and only one way to get to the Father. Jesus Christ died for our sins and through His grace we are given salvation......but we cannot agree (and sometimes the arguments get out of hand) on this subject. Even if it's backed (by numerous posters) with scirpture.

:frantics:

Later.

billwilliams70
01-05-2010, 06:08 PM
.....fairly interesting too.

Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

The rest is here. (http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html)

Take note of the following scriptures near the end.

Romans 8:38-39
John 10:28-29
Jude 24-25

Later.

Chris F
01-05-2010, 06:09 PM
i dont have time to look up all these verses =( but revelation 3:5 interested me.

but that verse says that the person had overcome and will be dressed in white, his name is in the book of life where it will never be blotted out. i dont get how it is saying that people do get blotted out. it seems like it is being read into it.

If it were not possible why would the holy spirit bother saying this? Nothing be read just the grammar showing it is possible. The consensus for the other view is that it is impossible.

Chris F
01-05-2010, 06:11 PM
okay if He gives you spiritual life then takes it away is He then giving you spirital death? or spiritually killing you?


Do you have to recieve believers baptism every time you get saved?

If He cleanses you when you are saved, does he decleanse you or dirty you when you are desaved.

And if you are saved again, is it fair to say you are saved, i think you should have to refer to yourself as "resaved".

Does he take it or do we walk away? DId the father kick out the prodigal or did he leave and then come back at which time the father ran to take Him back?

Chris F
01-05-2010, 06:23 PM
I just have to give my 2 cents here on the prodigal son. I cannot believe anyone would use this parable as evidence that a person can lose their salvation. The prodigal son is a perfect example of a Christian who turned his back on GOD for worldly lusts and pleasures. THAT does not mean he was no longer saved. Look where his sin took him before he returned home and repented. I believe that parable was an example of GODS correction in the believers life. Once we are saved, we still have the old flesh and we are still capable of sinning. But GOD will correct us via trials and tribulations. That is how we grow!

If one can lose their salvation because of backsliding into sin, I pose you with this:

I once heard a preacher say that if there is ever a moment in your life where you loved GOD more than you do right now, you are backsliden! Now I don't know about you, but I have to ask GOD everyday to help me love him, somedays that love is strong, other days it is not. Have I lost my salvation? If you struggle with this same problem have you lost your salvation?

I think if we are all honest with ourselves, there is not a person on this forum or on the world wide web who can say they do not struggle with this! Did JESUS die in vain because we all struggle with loving HIM and keeping his commandments. This is something we all struggle with everyday. Does that mean that none of us are saved? Who could be saved?

I think everyone here is stuck on the Word "loose". Who lost the son? The father. SO that means the son left and the father did not initiate the event. The entire line of parables was about finding what was lost. In all 3 stories the owners had possession did they not (Shepherd, women, and Father) All three initiated the finding did they not? The entire purpose of the prodigal son parable was to show the pharisees that they need to repent even though they thought they were saved. The slammin blow was the other son who represented the pharisees and his religious attitude. Jesus was showing them they need to repent. Just like us we need to repent (1 JOhn 1:9). So by reason of proper context the Prodigal Son is indeed all about the loss of something and the return to grace.

Simply sinning does not cause a loss in salvation if it did we all miss the mark. Paul discusses this deeply in Romans 7. However Paul also is very clear that the true believer will not let sin have dominion over them. SO if you are living in willful sin you are not saved and most believe you were never really saved to start with and this is how the rabbit trail started about how to get saved. So if you were having sex outside of marriage and continued to do it even after you claimed you were saved you are not. No believer will willfully sin. Romans 6-8 address this topic the best.

Chris F
01-05-2010, 06:27 PM
Again, if one believes that they can lose their salvation, then they need to explain away these verses:

Phillipians 1: 6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 1: 13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

These prove Gods will keep his word. However it is a two way street. God does not hold a gun to your head to keep you in his will. If we were mere will-less beings then Adam and Eve would have never fell from grace because God would have kept them from walking in their sin and Cain would not have killed his brother etc etc. We were created with a will. We do nto loose it we simply set it aside to live in His will and not ours

Chris F
01-05-2010, 06:32 PM
.....fairly interesting too.

Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

The rest is here. (http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html)

Take note of the following scriptures near the end.

Romans 8:38-39
John 10:28-29
Jude 24-25

Later.

Nice post. I agree that terms need to be defined. This is why I think we agree more then disagree. Loose is still a bad example. Can you loose what you never really had..... Also the bible is very clear we can walk away. God does nto take away his love in fact as the prodigal son parable shows he is always looking for us and celebrates when we return.

adamt
01-05-2010, 08:46 PM
Does he take it or do we walk away? DId the father kick out the prodigal or did he leave and then come back at which time the father ran to take Him back?

you're gonna have to start another thread with that....

we aren't talking about whether or not a believer can renege his salvation, that is a willful choice, mark posed the question, specifically "lose" his salvation.....

can't go changing his question 200 posts into the debate....

adamt
01-05-2010, 08:52 PM
if you can lose salvation via works then that is to say you gained it via works,


yall need to get over yourselves, you're not important or competent enough to save or unsave/desave/kill yourself eternally....

Chris F
01-06-2010, 07:35 AM
you're gonna have to start another thread with that....

we aren't talking about whether or not a believer can renege his salvation, that is a willful choice, mark posed the question, specifically "lose" his salvation.....

can't go changing his question 200 posts into the debate....

This has been a part of the discussion from very close to the start. Mark himself even made the point. So I think the question is valid.

ianfer
01-06-2010, 06:22 PM
In the beginning of Hebrews Paul talks about how salvation is authored by Jesus (2:10), how Jesus is the one who makes men holy (2:11), and how Jesus is the one who destroys the devil and frees people from sin (2:14-15). (not at all works based)

I know people have been quoting Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14 for evidence of losing your salvation but these statements seem to be talking about what Christians do that testify if they are saved, fruits of salvation don't make you saved. That is why Hebrews talks so much in the first two chapters about salvation being from God.

Plus, 12 and 14 warn about being like their forefather in the desert who...lost their salvation because of how they acted? no, in 4:2 it says they never believed in the first place.

All of these "if" verses -which there are many- dont necessarily point to losing your salvation, but testify as the fruit of their salvation

exodus 32:33 does seem to point in your direction though, so ill have to think about this one =p what is the book that is being talked about here? was it different in the old covenant than in the new? how? ill have to study it, but it is a really good verse

ianfer
01-06-2010, 07:07 PM
about the books of God.
Rev. 3:5 is definitely talking about the book of life, but im still not convinced that God talking about never blotting out someone's name from the book of life means that he can/or will blot out someone else's name. maybe it is just encouragement? it is definitely one of the reasons that the letters were written to the churches of revelation. i still think it seems like an assumption.

Exodus 32:33- kinda makes you wonder if maybe God was not talking about the Book of Life here, since it does not say Book of Life. here is my reasoning why it is not the Book of Life

In Hebrews 4:2 it talks about their forefathers in the desert never having faith in God-- they had the message but not the faith. So if they never had faith they were never in the Book of Life, right? so how could God blot out people from the Book of Life if they were never in it? and since it does not say "book of life" i am guessing it is another book of God

=D

eric84
01-06-2010, 09:08 PM
In the beginning of Hebrews Paul talks about how salvation is authored by Jesus (2:10), how Jesus is the one who makes men holy (2:11), and how Jesus is the one who destroys the devil and frees people from sin (2:14-15). (not at all works based)

I know people have been quoting Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14 for evidence of losing your salvation but these statements seem to be talking about what Christians do that testify if they are saved, fruits of salvation don't make you saved. That is why Hebrews talks so much in the first two chapters about salvation being from God.

Plus, 12 and 14 warn about being like their forefather in the desert who...lost their salvation because of how they acted? no, in 4:2 it says they never believed in the first place.

All of these "if" verses -which there are many- dont necessarily point to losing your salvation, but testify as the fruit of their salvation

exodus 32:33 does seem to point in your direction though, so ill have to think about this one =p what is the book that is being talked about here? was it different in the old covenant than in the new? how? ill have to study it, but it is a really good verse

So does Jesus save every single person regardless of what anyone does? I don't think anyone here doubts that Jesus is the author of our salvation, but the underlying question for Mark's original question might be, is there anything we do that effects us receiving salvation or not? If there is(which I believe), then it's possible we can ruin our salvation the same way. If there is nothing we can do to change salvation or not, then that would imply that everyone regardless of what they have ever done is saved, and nothing can ever change that.

I don't believe there is ANYTHING we can do to gain our salvation without Jesus, it's just not possible for us. But that doesn't mean we all get a free ride, at least in my beliefs.

Chris F
01-07-2010, 07:40 AM
In the beginning of Hebrews Paul talks about how salvation is authored by Jesus (2:10), how Jesus is the one who makes men holy (2:11), and how Jesus is the one who destroys the devil and frees people from sin (2:14-15). (not at all works based)

I know people have been quoting Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14 for evidence of losing your salvation but these statements seem to be talking about what Christians do that testify if they are saved, fruits of salvation don't make you saved. That is why Hebrews talks so much in the first two chapters about salvation being from God.

Plus, 12 and 14 warn about being like their forefather in the desert who...lost their salvation because of how they acted? no, in 4:2 it says they never believed in the first place.

All of these "if" verses -which there are many- dont necessarily point to losing your salvation, but testify as the fruit of their salvation

exodus 32:33 does seem to point in your direction though, so ill have to think about this one =p what is the book that is being talked about here? was it different in the old covenant than in the new? how? ill have to study it, but it is a really good verse

That contradicts the Greek Grammar.

CAVEMAN
01-07-2010, 04:22 PM
I think everyone here is stuck on the Word "loose". Who lost the son? The father. SO that means the son left and the father did not initiate the event. The entire line of parables was about finding what was lost. In all 3 stories the owners had possession did they not (Shepherd, women, and Father) All three initiated the finding did they not? The entire purpose of the prodigal son parable was to show the pharisees that they need to repent even though they thought they were saved. The slammin blow was the other son who represented the pharisees and his religious attitude. Jesus was showing them they need to repent. Just like us we need to repent (1 JOhn 1:9). So by reason of proper context the Prodigal Son is indeed all about the loss of something and the return to grace.

Simply sinning does not cause a loss in salvation if it did we all miss the mark. Paul discusses this deeply in Romans 7. However Paul also is very clear that the true believer will not let sin have dominion over them. SO if you are living in willful sin you are not saved and most believe you were never really saved to start with and this is how the rabbit trail started about how to get saved. So if you were having sex outside of marriage and continued to do it even after you claimed you were saved you are not. No believer will willfully sin. Romans 6-8 address this topic the best.

The son was lost! AND when he was lost he was still a son to the father!

If works cannot produce salvation, works cannot make you lose your salvation. If someone is a true believer, they will not continually walk in sin. THEY WILL STRUGGLE with sin, but they will not continually practice sin. GOD will bring circumstances into their life that will bring about repentance, just like in the parable of the prodigal son.

Galatians 5: 16-23 is good place to start:

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The 2nd part of verse 21 says "that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD." New King James translates it as practice such things, which means to continually do over and over. I agree with you that those who claim they are saved and practice those things mentioned in verses 19-21, are clearly not saved. Now, all Christians are capable of commiting those sins mentioned in those verses, but if they truly are saved, they will not continually practice them. GOD will bring them to repentance.
King David is a perfect example of someone that was truly saved yet fell way in sin for a time. The Bible tells us he was a man after GODS own heart. Why was he a man after GODS own heart? Because David weeped over his sin and repented. In Psalm 51, David asks GOD to Make him hear joy and gladness;that the bones which GOD had broken would rejoice. GOD broke David. GOD does the same in the true believers life. Also in Psalm 51, David asks GOD to Restore unto him THE JOY OF GOD'S SALVATION; and uphold him with HIS free spirit. David did not ask GOD to restore salvation, but the joy of salvation. David was clearly under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Someone who is not saved would of never cared to repent. Once saved always saved.

CAVEMAN
01-07-2010, 04:28 PM
These prove Gods will keep his word. However it is a two way street. God does not hold a gun to your head to keep you in his will. If we were mere will-less beings then Adam and Eve would have never fell from grace because God would have kept them from walking in their sin and Cain would not have killed his brother etc etc. We were created with a will. We do nto loose it we simply set it aside to live in His will and not ours

Ephesians 1: 13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What GOD has sealed, we cannot unseal!

Chris F
01-07-2010, 06:26 PM
The son was lost! AND when he was lost he was still a son to the father!

If works cannot produce salvation, works cannot make you lose your salvation. If someone is a true believer, they will not continually walk in sin. THEY WILL STRUGGLE with sin, but they will not continually practice sin. GOD will bring circumstances into their life that will bring about repentance, just like in the parable of the prodigal son.

Galatians 5: 16-23 is good place to start:

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The 2nd part of verse 21 says "that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD." New King James translates it as practice such things, which means to continually do over and over. I agree with you that those who claim they are saved and practice those things mentioned in verses 19-21, are clearly not saved. Now, all Christians are capable of commiting those sins mentioned in those verses, but if they truly are saved, they will not continually practice them. GOD will bring them to repentance.
King David is a perfect example of someone that was truly saved yet fell way in sin for a time. The Bible tells us he was a man after GODS own heart. Why was he a man after GODS own heart? Because David weeped over his sin and repented. In Psalm 51, David asks GOD to Make him hear joy and gladness;that the bones which GOD had broken would rejoice. GOD broke David. GOD does the same in the true believers life. Also in Psalm 51, David asks GOD to Restore unto him THE JOY OF GOD'S SALVATION; and uphold him with HIS free spirit. David did not ask GOD to restore salvation, but the joy of salvation. David was clearly under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Someone who is not saved would of never cared to repent. Once saved always saved.

You need to read A Tale of Two sons by John Macarthur. Or a book on history and customs. The Lost son by definition was no longer a son. When the father allowed the son to leave it was as good as saying this son of mine is dead to me. The OT did not allow and neither did Mid East social norms for a second born son to demand an inheritance from their father while alive. When you read that or catch up on the background then we can talk. If the son had died in the far away place he would have perished outside the family. You are reading the bible with your preconceived opinions and 21st century mindset. You must keep Jesus' audience as the focus of the story not you.

Tyburn
01-07-2010, 06:33 PM
You need to read A Tale of Two sons by John Macarthur. Or a book on history and customs. The Lost son by definition was no longer a son. When the father allowed the son to leave it was as good as saying this son of mine is dead to me. The OT did not allow and neither did Mid East social norms for a second born son to demand an inheritance from their father while alive. When you read that or catch up on the background then we can talk. If the son had died in the far away place he would have perished outside the family. You are reading the bible with your preconceived opinions and 21st century mindset. You must keep Jesus' audience as the focus of the story not you.

Pastor Chris

consider this a YES/NO answer.

Is their anything a created human being can do to looose his salvation assuming he is saved to begin with.


Think VERY carefully before you answer. I dont want you to reply with Scripture, I dont want to hear exceptions.

A simple Yes or No.

Chris F
01-07-2010, 06:34 PM
Ephesians 1: 13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What GOD has sealed, we cannot unseal!

The rest of scripture contradict this. God is not a schizophrenic. Why then did Jesus say do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit? That is what seals us. When we stop having faith we blaspheme the Holy Spirit. God's grace does not change. If it was unconditional then Adam and Eve would have never failed. Free will cannot be removed from the equation. God is loving not a puppet master. All the verses you used in the previous post are great examples of free will battling grace. Pauls speaks of this a lot in Romans 7. The bottom line is when we are truly saved we would not want to walk away because we have tasted grace. We know when we fail we have 1 John 1:9. However some do decide they do not want forgiveness and walk away and fro them there is no longer a sacrifice for them. We will have to just agree to disagree. In my 12 years as a minister and 25 years as a Christian I have battled this very subject in my heart. Today I know God's Grace is sufficient and that he will never leave me nor forsake me. So I know I must submit my will to his will and live according to his precepts and not my sinful desires.

Chris F
01-07-2010, 06:35 PM
Pastor Chris

consider this a YES/NO answer.

Is their anything a created human being can do to looose his salvation assuming he is saved to begin with.


Think VERY carefully before you answer. I dont want you to reply with Scripture, I dont want to hear exceptions.

A simple Yes or No.

NO

Tyburn
01-07-2010, 06:37 PM
The rest of scripture contradict this. God is not a schizophrenic. Why then did Jesus say do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit? That is what seals us. When we stop having faith we blaspheme the Holy Spirit. God's grace does not change. If it was unconditional then Adam and Eve would have never failed. Free will cannot be removed from the equation. God is loving not a puppet master. All the verses you used in the previous post are great examples of free will battling grace. Pauls speaks of this a lot in Romans 7. The bottom line is when we are truly saved we would not want to walk away because we have tasted grace. We know when we fail we have 1 John 1:9. However some do decide they do not want forgiveness and walk away and fro them there is no longer a sacrifice for them. We will have to just agree to disagree. In my 12 years as a minister and 25 years as a Christian I have battled this very subject in my heart. Today I know God's Grace is sufficient and that he will never leave me nor forsake me. So I know I must submit my will to his will and live according to his precepts and not my sinful desires.

Pastor Chris

Consider this a YES/NO question

Is it possible for the Word of GOD to contradict itself?
Think VERY carefully before you answer. I dont want you to reply with Scripture, I dont want to hear exceptions.

A simple Yes or No.

Tyburn
01-07-2010, 06:38 PM
NO

Do you therefore believe Once Saved Always Saved ?

Chris F
01-07-2010, 06:39 PM
Do you therefore believe Once Saved Always Saved ?

NO

CAVEMAN
01-07-2010, 07:03 PM
You need to read A Tale of Two sons by John Macarthur. Or a book on history and customs. The Lost son by definition was no longer a son. When the father allowed the son to leave it was as good as saying this son of mine is dead to me. The OT did not allow and neither did Mid East social norms for a second born son to demand an inheritance from their father while alive. When you read that or catch up on the background then we can talk. If the son had died in the far away place he would have perished outside the family. You are reading the bible with your preconceived opinions and 21st century mindset. You must keep Jesus' audience as the focus of the story not you.

John Macarthur is also a Calvinist! Don't get me wrong, I like John Macarthur, and on essentials of the faith, he is spot on, but I disagree with him on some non-essentials. The Bible is clear, you cannot lose your salvation.

John 10: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Notice in 1 John 2: 19 it says ." THEY WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE CONTINUED" if they were really Christians to begin with.

You think I have a 21st Century mind set and I think your reading something that is not there. I have given you plenty of scripture to back up my claim of once saved always saved. So I guess we just disagree on this one!:)

CAVEMAN
01-07-2010, 07:11 PM
The rest of scripture contradict this. God is not a schizophrenic. Why then did Jesus say do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit? That is what seals us. When we stop having faith we blaspheme the Holy Spirit. God's grace does not change. If it was unconditional then Adam and Eve would have never failed. Free will cannot be removed from the equation. God is loving not a puppet master. All the verses you used in the previous post are great examples of free will battling grace. Pauls speaks of this a lot in Romans 7. The bottom line is when we are truly saved we would not want to walk away because we have tasted grace. We know when we fail we have 1 John 1:9. However some do decide they do not want forgiveness and walk away and fro them there is no longer a sacrifice for them. We will have to just agree to disagree. In my 12 years as a minister and 25 years as a Christian I have battled this very subject in my heart. Today I know God's Grace is sufficient and that he will never leave me nor forsake me. So I know I must submit my will to his will and live according to his precepts and not my sinful desires.

Exactly! People who do walk away were never saved in the first place. Hence 1 John 2: 19

Tyburn
01-07-2010, 07:31 PM
NO

So then you believe that GOD withdraw his Salvation from people. For you have confirmed that you believe Salvation can be Lost...and yet you also confirm that there is nothing a created being can do to loose salvation.

Ergo, the only logical explaination is that GOD takes salvation away from some people.

Tell me.

Is GOD unchanging?

Can GOD break his promises?

CAVEMAN
01-07-2010, 07:33 PM
The rest of scripture contradict this. God is not a schizophrenic. Why then did Jesus say do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit? That is what seals us. When we stop having faith we blaspheme the Holy Spirit. God's grace does not change. If it was unconditional then Adam and Eve would have never failed. Free will cannot be removed from the equation. God is loving not a puppet master. All the verses you used in the previous post are great examples of free will battling grace. Pauls speaks of this a lot in Romans 7. The bottom line is when we are truly saved we would not want to walk away because we have tasted grace. We know when we fail we have 1 John 1:9. However some do decide they do not want forgiveness and walk away and fro them there is no longer a sacrifice for them. We will have to just agree to disagree. In my 12 years as a minister and 25 years as a Christian I have battled this very subject in my heart. Today I know God's Grace is sufficient and that he will never leave me nor forsake me. So I know I must submit my will to his will and live according to his precepts and not my sinful desires.

Wrong! The word seal is used at least three different ways in the New Testament. In Matthew 27:66, the tomb of Jesus was secured by sealing it and putting guards around it. In Revelation 20:3 God throws Satan into a pit and seals it over so he can't escape. So one meaning is locking something up, closing it in.
Another is found in Romans 4:11 where Abraham's circumcision is called the sign and seal of the righteousness he had by faith. And in 1 Corinthians 9:2 Paul says that his converts are the seal of his apostleship. So a second meaning of sealing is giving a sign of authenticity.
A third meaning is found in Revelation 7:3 where the seal of God is put on the forehead of God's servants to protect them from the wrath coming upon the world.

So what did Paul mean in Ephesians 1:13 when he said that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit? No matter which of these meanings you use the basic truth is the same.

If the Spirit seals shut, the point must be that he seals in faith and seals out unbelief and apostasy.
If the Spirit seals us as a sign of authenticity, then HE is that sign and it is the Spirit's work in our life which is GOD'S trademark. Our eternal sonship is real and authentic if we have the Spirit. HE is the sign of divine reality in our lives.
Or if the Spirit marks us with GOD'S seal, HE protects us from evil forces which won't dare to enter a person bearing the mark of GOD'S own possession.

Chris F
01-08-2010, 05:34 AM
John Macarthur is also a Calvinist! Don't get me wrong, I like John Macarthur, and on essentials of the faith, he is spot on, but I disagree with him on some non-essentials. The Bible is clear, you cannot lose your salvation.

John 10: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Notice in 1 John 2: 19 it says ." THEY WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE CONTINUED" if they were really Christians to begin with.

You think I have a 21st Century mind set and I think your reading something that is not there. I have given you plenty of scripture to back up my claim of once saved always saved. So I guess we just disagree on this one!:)

All the scripture you provided is yet but a fourth of what I already posted so you will need to post a lot more. What you quoted is true about loss of salvation. But since I agree with you one cannot loose it then you really and not proving a thing. What you are burdened to prove is one cannot walk away from it.

Chris F
01-08-2010, 05:35 AM
Wrong! The word seal is used at least three different ways in the New Testament. In Matthew 27:66, the tomb of Jesus was secured by sealing it and putting guards around it. In Revelation 20:3 God throws Satan into a pit and seals it over so he can't escape. So one meaning is locking something up, closing it in.
Another is found in Romans 4:11 where Abraham's circumcision is called the sign and seal of the righteousness he had by faith. And in 1 Corinthians 9:2 Paul says that his converts are the seal of his apostleship. So a second meaning of sealing is giving a sign of authenticity.
A third meaning is found in Revelation 7:3 where the seal of God is put on the forehead of God's servants to protect them from the wrath coming upon the world.

So what did Paul mean in Ephesians 1:13 when he said that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit? No matter which of these meanings you use the basic truth is the same.

If the Spirit seals shut, the point must be that he seals in faith and seals out unbelief and apostasy.
If the Spirit seals us as a sign of authenticity, then HE is that sign and it is the Spirit's work in our life which is GOD'S trademark. Our eternal sonship is real and authentic if we have the Spirit. HE is the sign of divine reality in our lives.
Or if the Spirit marks us with GOD'S seal, HE protects us from evil forces which won't dare to enter a person bearing the mark of GOD'S own possession.

You are free to your tradition sir but the hermeneutics of it does nto agree with you.

Jonlion
01-08-2010, 07:25 AM
I won't add to any of the scripture for the momennt but rather ask what we feel in our selves on the matter.

I have been giving this some thought and I for now consider myself saved although I am still fearful that the door may not be big enough or that God calls me a stranger. I think this fear is healthy.

But I was trying to see how this applies to my life. Now I constantly mess up and sin, however.................

I used to have a lot of sex outside of the covenent. Since being saved I no longer do this. Now, I still think or am tempted by this sin but I resist. However it may be that I one day fall into this tempetation.

Yet because I know what I know, because I know the Lord disaproves of this, I can never do it freely for as long as I live. I will always feel the shame, the sin and want to repent.

Does that make sense? NOw that I know what the Lord requires of me I can never enjoy this kind of Sex. It is tarnished forever even if i indulge it for 5 mins, it will never be guilt free anymore.

Hopefully soonishh I can be married to a wonderful Christian girl and I can live as best the Lord commands.

But what I feel that I have settled in my mind is that once saved, you always will be. And people who err so badly never quite had it in the first place.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
01-08-2010, 08:59 AM
I do not believe in the once saved always saved! If you go twenty years on fire for God and doing his work you can still go and ruin it for yourself! That don't mean you have to and that don't mean you can't come back to god cause he is a forgiving God. But just because somebody does Gods work don't mean they can go out and willfully sin and still be saved! God gives YOU the choice as to weather or not you want to accept and or keep the Salvation he offers you! So while we cannot earn it on our own which is why we can ask for forgiveness God does expect us to try and follow his rules if we want to remain saved!

adamt
01-08-2010, 12:30 PM
I do not believe in the once saved always saved! If you go twenty years on fire for God and doing his work you can still go and ruin it for yourself! That don't mean you have to and that don't mean you can't come back to god cause he is a forgiving God. But just because somebody does Gods work don't mean they can go out and willfully sin and still be saved! God gives YOU the choice as to weather or not you want to accept and or keep the Salvation he offers you! So while we cannot earn it on our own which is why we can ask for forgiveness God does expect us to try and follow his rules if we want to remain saved!



so saved by grace.... kept by works????








i prefer to believe in, "never really saved to begin with"

CAVEMAN
01-08-2010, 02:15 PM
so saved by grace.... kept by works????








i prefer to believe in, "never really saved to begin with"

Exactly!:applause:

CAVEMAN
01-08-2010, 02:22 PM
You are free to your tradition sir but the hermeneutics of it does nto agree with you.

Are you saying that the Spirit begins the work of salvation in us and that we work it out and complete it by remaining faithful? That IS what you are saying, that we get saved and keep it by the effort of our works, right?

Isn't FAITH a fruit of the Spirit? How can you have FAITH with out the Spirit?

Chuck
01-08-2010, 05:55 PM
Exactly!:applause:

Explain.... :huh:

CAVEMAN
01-08-2010, 06:01 PM
Explain.... :huh:

Do you mean to explain that I do not believe one can lose their salvation?:huh:

Neezar
01-08-2010, 06:03 PM
Do you mean to explain that I do not believe one can lose their salvation?:huh:

Again? :laugh:

CAVEMAN
01-08-2010, 06:06 PM
Again? :laugh:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: I have made myself clear in the last several posts, right?

Neezar
01-08-2010, 06:09 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: I have made myself clear in the last several posts, right?

I have a sneaky suspicion that you do not believe that someone can lose their salvation.

ps And maybe that you don't need to keep it up to date with works. That is just a hunch though. lol

Chuck
01-08-2010, 06:16 PM
so saved by grace.... kept by works????








i prefer to believe in, "never really saved to begin with"

Do you mean to explain that I do not believe one can lose their salvation?:huh:

I wasn't sure if you were agreeing to the "saved by grace, kept by works" part or the assumption that somebody who walks away from their salvation and sins was never saved to begin with?

Or both!! :D

CAVEMAN
01-08-2010, 06:19 PM
I wasn't sure if you were agreeing to the "saved by grace, kept by works" part or the assumption that somebody who walks away from their salvation and sins was never saved to begin with?

Or both!! :D

I'm definitely a once saved always saved kind of guy!:happydancing:

CAVEMAN
01-08-2010, 06:20 PM
I have a sneaky suspicion that you do not believe that someone can lose their salvation.

ps And maybe that you don't need to keep it up to date with works. That is just a hunch though. lol

Oh good, because I was not sure I got my point across!:huh::blink::laugh:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
01-08-2010, 08:51 PM
so saved by grace.... kept by works????








i prefer to believe in, "never really saved to begin with"

Gods grace allows you to be saved! You are however suppose to try and live right! Let me try to draw a verbal picture! Say someone spends years living for God to the best of their ability but get desperate one day and gives into temptation and robs a bank! By their WORKS they have lost their salvation! They have backslid! So in away you may say that you loose salvation through works! You loose it through willful sin and disobedience to God! God offers it but if you push it away he ain't gonna force it on you. Plus why should he allow Folks to live in a deliberate sinful manner and still reap the rewards? Folks must be careful that they don't think we can live contrary to Gods law without paying a price! Their is a reason the Old Timers told Folks to stay on the straight and narrow!

Maglorius
01-08-2010, 10:01 PM
Gods grace allows you to be saved! You are however suppose to try and live right! Let me try to draw a verbal picture! Say someone spends years living for God to the best of their ability but get desperate one day and gives into temptation and robs a bank! By their WORKS they have lost their salvation! They have backslid! So in away you may say that you loose salvation through works! You loose it through willful sin and disobedience to God! God offers it but if you push it away he ain't gonna force it on you. Plus why should he allow Folks to live in a deliberate sinful manner and still reap the rewards? Folks must be careful that they don't think we can live contrary to Gods law without paying a price! Their is a reason the Old Timers told Folks to stay on the straight and narrow!

Well than, when David suddenly gave into temptation, he not only committed adultery but also murder. So by his actions did he loose his salvation and was he unsaved until the prophet Nathan came along and told him about his sin and when David repented, did he regain his salvation upon his repentance?

I have a problem with the idea that Gods will, will submit to our will.

Tyburn
01-08-2010, 10:37 PM
Say someone spends years living for God to the best of their ability but get desperate one day and gives into temptation and robs a bank! By their WORKS they have lost their salvation! They have backslid! So in away you may say that you loose salvation through works! You loose it through willful sin and disobedience to God! God offers it but if you push it away he ain't gonna force it on you. Plus why should he allow Folks to live in a deliberate sinful manner and still reap the rewards?

Really...?? No you dont lose your salvation for disobedience. There is a price to pay for sinning...but that is not to do with Salvation in the case of a Christian. You might encure GODs wrath or discipline.

If what you said was the case then what about King Solomon...or Moses? are they in Hell now for their mistakes...when they are still used as upright examples in Scripture??

its extremely simple...once you've accepted Christ...you cant just expell His Spirit from dwelling in your body. He wont leave. You cant force him to...and you cant change your mind. Once you have committed to Christ then your fate is as sealed as if you had rejected him.

Living sinfully after that has to do with your journey to being Christ Like...thats pretty much up to your relationship with GOD. But doing wrong wont cost you your Salvation.

You cant lose it, just like you cant earn it. It is given by GOD and you either except it, or you dont...The Almighty is not some yoyo...There is only so far a True Christian can slip because of what is dwelling inside them

Chances are...if you've ever seen someone backslide to the point where they have been purely evil...then they never were saved in the first place.

NateR
01-08-2010, 11:16 PM
Gods grace allows you to be saved! You are however suppose to try and live right! Let me try to draw a verbal picture! Say someone spends years living for God to the best of their ability but get desperate one day and gives into temptation and robs a bank! By their WORKS they have lost their salvation! They have backslid! So in away you may say that you loose salvation through works! You loose it through willful sin and disobedience to God! God offers it but if you push it away he ain't gonna force it on you. Plus why should he allow Folks to live in a deliberate sinful manner and still reap the rewards? Folks must be careful that they don't think we can live contrary to Gods law without paying a price! Their is a reason the Old Timers told Folks to stay on the straight and narrow!

That's not true. Because Hebrews chapter 6 is pretty clear that IF it was possible for anyone to lose their salvation, then they are NEVER getting it back.

So, that means that Moses was hellbound from the moment he killed that Egyptian all the way up until he led the Jews out of slavery in Egypt. David slept with Bathsheba, so David must be in Hell right now. Even though there are prophecies talking about David returning to rule in Israel.

Abraham lied about his marriage to his wife, so I guess he lost his salvation, which would mean that GOD built the entire nation of Israel out of a man who is in Hell this very minute.

Forgive me for saying this, but your theology is absolutely ridiculous and is completely out of character for GOD. I don't know which god you are following but it is clearly not the GOD of the Bible.

Tyburn
01-08-2010, 11:19 PM
So, that means that Moses was hellbound from the moment he killed that Egyptian all the way up until he led the Jews out of slavery in Egypt..

No, actually I think Moses had a great sin then that. What was it that he did that made GOD dissallow him from entering the promised land. He was allowed to watch them all go in, but had to die outside or something :unsure-1:

NateR
01-08-2010, 11:59 PM
No, actually I think Moses had a great sin then that. What was it that he did that made GOD dissallow him from entering the promised land. He was allowed to watch them all go in, but had to die outside or something :unsure-1:

Deuteronomy 32:48-52:
48 On that same day the LORD told Moses, 49 "Go up into the Abarim Range to Mount Nebo in Moab, across from Jericho, and view Canaan, the land I am giving the Israelites as their own possession. 50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people. 51 This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. 52 Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel."

Sounds pretty severe right? However, read the closing remarks after Moses' death in the last paragraph of the Torah:

Deuteronomy 34: 9-12:
10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 11 who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

Yep, sounds like GOD took away his salvation and sent him to Hell to me. :rolleyes:

Tyburn
01-09-2010, 12:13 AM
Yep, sounds like GOD took away his salvation and sent him to Hell to me. :rolleyes:

I never said he did....I just remember that as being a particular sin for him :mellow:

NateR
01-09-2010, 01:18 AM
I never said he did....I just remember that as being a particular sin for him :mellow:

I know you didn't, I was just explaining the logical, Biblical conclusion that one must reach if you believe we can lose our salvation.

Chris F
01-09-2010, 08:07 AM
Are you saying that the Spirit begins the work of salvation in us and that we work it out and complete it by remaining faithful? That IS what you are saying, that we get saved and keep it by the effort of our works, right?

Isn't FAITH a fruit of the Spirit? How can you have FAITH with out the Spirit?

No I am not saying that at all. Our faith produces works according to James. It is not what keeps us saved. NOthing we can do will ever be good enough. What I am saying is that once we have became saved God is faithful to see us through and keep us in His grace. That does nto mean I can choose to forfeit my grace and no fault to God's and walk away Just as Satan did and just as the prodigal did. The problem here is you are reading scripture with through the lens of your personal theology and not according to its cultural and historical context.

I happen to agree with everyone that most who claim to be saved and walk away or continue in sin were not saved to start with. But it is not impossible for one to give up grace. No one has as of yet provided a single verse saying it is impossible. All that has been quoted is proof God does not remove it from us which is true. I gave 4 pages worth of scritpure showing that it is possible. This is why i think it is best just to agree to disagree

KENTUCKYREDBONE
01-09-2010, 10:30 AM
That's not true. Because Hebrews chapter 6 is pretty clear that IF it was possible for anyone to lose their salvation, then they are NEVER getting it back.

So, that means that Moses was hellbound from the moment he killed that Egyptian all the way up until he led the Jews out of slavery in Egypt. David slept with Bathsheba, so David must be in Hell right now. Even though there are prophecies talking about David returning to rule in Israel.

Abraham lied about his marriage to his wife, so I guess he lost his salvation, which would mean that GOD built the entire nation of Israel out of a man who is in Hell this very minute.

Forgive me for saying this, but your theology is absolutely ridiculous and is completely out of character for GOD. I don't know which god you are following but it is clearly not the GOD of the Bible.

I follow the God of the King James Bible! And no my Theology is NOT ridiculous! Just because it don't agree with you on everything don't make it ridiculous! I have NEVER used them kind of personal attacks on this board but I will say you are NOT showing Christ in a good light with such crazy unfounded attacks! Now on to the topic! Just where in the Bible does it say we can keep living in willful sin and still be saved? It does say we have an advocate with the father if we slip! (I'm paraphrasing some here) But it does not say we can suddenly stop living for God and still not pay the price! As for David in the Bible if he hadn't of repented and made things right with God he would have been lost! I really have issues with the once saved always saved thought because many will use that as an excuse to live riotously and ignore Gods law! Now I ain't saying that's what you do but some will! Now on a final note I would suggest you either
A-Really learn how to present your view in a Christlike manner without insulting those who disagree! OR
B-Shut down this sub forum and not talk about Bible until you can do so in a Godly manner!

Now I know you have the Authority to do as you see fit on this board but in this case I believe you are in need of being rebuked by a Brother in Christ! If you really sincerely pray about it I think you will see I am correct about the manner in which things should be discussed!

Tyburn
01-09-2010, 12:28 PM
I know you didn't, I was just explaining the logical, Biblical conclusion that one must reach if you believe we can lose our salvation.

ah yes...for the benefit of the...less...enlightened :laugh:

Tyburn
01-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Now on a final note I would suggest you either
A-Really learn how to present your view in a Christlike manner without insulting those who disagree! OR
B-Shut down this sub forum and not talk about Bible until you can do so in a Godly manner!


Thank you, we have moderators that will decide what is and is not approriate. If you dont like what you find here, then dont post here, but this is not a democrasy...and you are not speaking the truth in scripture are you!

You claim that works can separate you from GOD after Salvation...and worse that you can re-get your Salvation. Now, even if you want to discount Once Saved Always Saved...you still have to note from the Hebrews Text, that you cant regain Salvation if its possible to lose it.

So may I make a suggestion to you? Rather then getting all hot and flustered, as is your tendancy on alot of issues over this board...perhaps you concentrate on the matter at hand.

I would like to see the defence of your theology against the Hebrews text please. That way we can soon see who is correct in this matter. :)

KENTUCKYREDBONE
01-09-2010, 03:12 PM
Thank you, we have moderators that will decide what is and is not approriate.


So you think I should just be a yes man and say a mod does no wrong even when I see it? No thanks!
If you dont like what you find here, then dont post here, but this is not a democrasy...and you are not speaking the truth in scripture are you!


Actually I am convinced that I am speaking truth in scripture and speaking it in a very humble way! I have not insulted anyone I have not put down anyone and anybody that has read my post fully should not think I have! Let me give you an example. You are Catholic I believe and I am not! However dispite that I have NEVER put down Catholics nor will I insult you for being one. On matters of scripture I sometimes post my views on what the Bible says and means but I have never put anyone on this board down for what they believe! I have NEVER told anyone that what they believe is redictules!


So may I make a suggestion to you? Rather then getting all hot and flustered, as is your tendancy on alot of issues over this board...perhaps you concentrate on the matter at hand.


I believe I have been very nice and polite! In fact I'm probably one of the politest ones on this board! I actually have avioded topics in the past becuase I was trying to aviod such contetion! I am also giveing real thought to avioding this partictuler sub forum cuase of so many Folks that get all upset and crazy when I don't agree with them! I also find myself rewording alot of things in this section so as to not be so blunt in order to aviod insulting others!

Chuck
01-09-2010, 03:22 PM
Thank you, we have moderators that will decide what is and is not approriate. If you dont like what you find here, then dont post here, but this is not a democrasy...and you are not speaking the truth in scripture are you!

Ahhhhhh... the ever present but often subdued mantra of the forums... :laugh:

Relax Dave and quit being ridiculous... if somebody if offended by something posted on the board they have a right to respond to it...

Kentucky was completely respectful to Nate in his response and I doubt Nate will have a problem with it... no need to take out the 'ol moderator stick. Deciding what is inappropriate and sharing an opinion about it are two different things brother...

Preach
01-09-2010, 04:36 PM
Explain Judas

wpnsman2000
01-09-2010, 04:40 PM
Once Saved, Always saved...

NateR
01-09-2010, 05:44 PM
I follow the God of the King James Bible!

Well, therein lies the root of the problem. It's not a good idea to base any of your theology off of a translation of the Bible. Particularly not an English translation, because English is such an imprecise and crude language in comparison to ancient Greek and Hebrew.

Even as English translation go, the KJV is not the best. There are numerous mistranslations and inaccuracies that are not hard to find at all.

This however, is a completely separate discussion and I'm a little perplexed by this strange cult that seems to be rising up around the King James Bible in recent years, as if it's the only true and acceptable version of the Bible. It's obviously a backlash to many modern, heretical paraphrases of the Bible (it would be wrong to refer to them as translations) like The Message. However, this seems to be more about people clinging to their traditions than seeking Truth.

Now don't get me wrong, the KJV is a good translation, but it is NOT a divinely inspired translation. GOD didn't show up in 1611 and say, "Well that Bible that I had Moses, David, Solomon, John, Matthew, Paul, etc. write was nice for the time, but I have some adjustments I want you to make."

No translation gets the title of divinely inspired when it comes to the Bible. The believe that GOD inspired certain men to write down His Words ONLY applies to the texts in their original forms, not translation and particularly not English translations.

Seriously translating the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Torah into English is like trying to install Windows XP onto your Gameboy. A LOT of information is going to be lost. For instance, ancient Hebrew assigns numerical values to each letter and those numerical values carry their own meaning. English letters have no numerical values, so when you translate Hebrew into English, you've already lost up to 50% of your text.

And no my Theology is NOT ridiculous! Just because it don't agree with you on everything don't make it ridiculous! I have NEVER used them kind of personal attacks on this board but I will say you are NOT showing Christ in a good light with such crazy unfounded attacks! Now on to the topic! Just where in the Bible does it say we can keep living in willful sin and still be saved? It does say we have an advocate with the father if we slip! (I'm paraphrasing some here) But it does not say we can suddenly stop living for God and still not pay the price! As for David in the Bible if he hadn't of repented and made things right with God he would have been lost! I really have issues with the once saved always saved thought because many will use that as an excuse to live riotously and ignore Gods law! Now I ain't saying that's what you do but some will! Now on a final note I would suggest you either
A-Really learn how to present your view in a Christlike manner without insulting those who disagree! OR
B-Shut down this sub forum and not talk about Bible until you can do so in a Godly manner!

Now I know you have the Authority to do as you see fit on this board but in this case I believe you are in need of being rebuked by a Brother in Christ! If you really sincerely pray about it I think you will see I am correct about the manner in which things should be discussed!

Attacking the argument and attacking the person are two completely different things. You probably need to grow a thicker skin and not take things so personally. That's all that needs to be said about that.

The "verbal picture" that you tried to draw was ridiculous and if that is how your theology works, then it is ridiculous as well. No offense intended, but maybe you need to:
1. Come up with some better ways to illustrate what you believe.
2. Seriously examine what you believe and see if it is truly in the Bible (I would highly recommend that you make an attempt to study the original manuscripts in their original languages and not just stick to the KJV) or if you are just following traditions instead of Truth.

Explain Judas

Judas would definitely fall into the "never truly saved" category.

Chuck
01-09-2010, 06:04 PM
I would highly recommend that you make an attempt to study the original manuscripts in their original languages and not just stick to the KJV) or if you are just following traditions instead of Truth.

Obviously good advice but how do we really do that Nate? If we don't have comprehension of the original language or access to the original manuscripts then at some point we're forced to accept what somebody else says they mean.

Right? :blink:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
01-09-2010, 06:25 PM
On a few things we may just have to agree to disagree! The main most important and hopefully final request I am making of you concerning this subject is please,please do not think of it as an excuse to ignore Gods instruction thinking you will always be saved no matter what! I am not accusing you of saying that but it is something to consider!

Now onto what translation I prefer. Unless I actually learn Hebrew and can know I am studying the original writings I'll probably stick with the KJV. Now while I can't explain everything I am pretty confident that its an accurate translation. Most other versions I have read some in tried to completely change the Bible into something totally different!

wpnsman2000
01-09-2010, 07:36 PM
On a few things we may just have to agree to disagree! The main most important and hopefully final request I am making of you concerning this subject is please,please do not think of it as an excuse to ignore Gods instruction thinking you will always be saved no matter what! I am not accusing you of saying that but it is something to consider!

Now onto what translation I prefer. Unless I actually learn Hebrew and can know I am studying the original writings I'll probably stick with the KJV. Now while I can't explain everything I am pretty confident that its an accurate translation. Most other versions I have read some in tried to completely change the Bible into something totally different!


True, you cannot just get saved and turn away from it and expect to go to heaven. You have to pursue being as God wants you to be. We all sin no matter what...but what we pursue in our hearts is what is important. If we are trying to do right that is one thing but if you just keep sinning and don't care that is another thing. As in the words of the late and great Dr. Adrian Rogers...When you are saved, you are made perfect forever. For by one offering He "Jesus" hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)
When Jesus died on the cross, He saved you forever. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sin forever. If you ever lost your salvation, in order for you to be saved again, Jesus would have to die again. By one offering He has perfected forever those who were sanctified.

NateR
01-09-2010, 09:35 PM
Obviously good advice but how do we really do that Nate? If we don't have comprehension of the original language or access to the original manuscripts then at some point we're forced to accept what somebody else says they mean.

Right? :blink:

Well, there are plenty of study tools out there to help, so you don't need to be an expert on Hebrew or Greek. My recommendation would be to have more than one translation of the Bible and a concordance, so you can compare the versions and do words studies.

I frequently use:
New King James (this is my main Bible)
King James
New American Standard
Hollman Christian Standard
The NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/home.php) (a translators' Bible)
The Complete Jewish Bible (a Messianic Jewish translation of the OT and NT)
A Hebrew Tanakh based on the Masoretic Text (Old Testament only, of course)
NIV (online only, I don't own a printed copy)
Strong's Concordance
The Jewish New Testament Commentary (gives excellent Jewish perspectives on the New Testament)
Zondervan Handbook to the Bible

Now I don't check all of this stuff for every single verse. Most of the time, just reading my NKJV is enough for me. However, in order to understand specific passages more deeply or to help sort out confusing passages, it helps to be able to check it against different translations.

Again, the Divinely-Inspired nature of the Bible does NOT apply to translations of the Bible. It's referring to the original Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts for the Old Testament (Tanakh), and the original Greek manuscripts for the New Testament. The Bible is perfect, translations rarely are, especially not English translations because of the imprecise and crude nature of our language.

On a few things we may just have to agree to disagree! The main most important and hopefully final request I am making of you concerning this subject is please,please do not think of it as an excuse to ignore Gods instruction thinking you will always be saved no matter what! I am not accusing you of saying that but it is something to consider!

Nobody here is claiming that is the case. The book of James is very clear that our works are the outward evidence of our faith. If someone wanted to live the lifestyle you describe, then I would argue that they were never truly saved to begin with.

Now onto what translation I prefer. Unless I actually learn Hebrew and can know I am studying the original writings I'll probably stick with the KJV. Now while I can't explain everything I am pretty confident that its an accurate translation. Most other versions I have read some in tried to completely change the Bible into something totally different!

You are going to have to give some specific examples here. Which versions are you referring to? What passages do you believe have been changed? And why do you believe that the KJV translation is the most accurate in each instance?

NateR
01-09-2010, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure if anyone listens to Hank Hanegraaff, "The Bible Answer Man," on the radio, but I tend to agree with him most of the time. So, I decided to check to see what his website says about this topic:

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/can-a-christian-lose-their-salvation

Can a Christian Lose their Salvation? Christians and the Assurance of Salvation

Introduction
Can you lose your salvation? Now that's an important question. Can I be sure that I'm really saved?

Can You Lose Your Salvation- Backsliding
Most Christians have probably had moments of doubt about their salvation. After all, we've all entertained thoughts and have committed acts that we knew were displeasing to God. We've all experienced that sense of remorse and sometimes questioned the reality of our salvation afterwards. Backsliding can no doubt cause such feelings to arise, and should hopefully move us to repentance (1 John 1:9).

Can You Lose Your Salvation- The Believer's Eternal Security
However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the Gospel of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.

Can You Lose Your Salvation- The Holy Spirit
Furthermore, in such passages as 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13, the apostle Paul indicated that the Holy Spirit acts as the very seal of God's ownership of the believer; He serves as the guarantee of our inheritance to come - namely, eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13). In describing our inheritance the apostle Peter used some very powerful words - words like "imperishable," "undefiled," and "unfading" (1 Pet. 1:5). With these words He underscored the everlasting assurance believers have with respect to God's gift of salvation.

Can You Lose Your Salvation- Abandoning the Faith
Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start. You see, while "once saved, always saved" is true from God's perspective, man only looks at the outward appearance and thus cannot always accurately assess who is really saved in the first place. The question therefore is not whether someone lost their salvation, but whether they had ever had it at all. As Romans chapter eight says, "there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (v. 38-29). He is the very source of our salvation.

And remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time.

Now, I'm not claiming that, since Hank Hanegraaff said it, then it must be the truth. However, I just thought it was a very clear concise answer, that I just happen to agree with.

Maglorius
01-09-2010, 09:48 PM
Thank You NateR, I listen to Hank as well and tend to agree with most of what he says. That is a great response.

Chris F
01-10-2010, 08:27 AM
I'm not sure if anyone listens to Hank Hanegraaff, "The Bible Answer Man," on the radio, but I tend to agree with him most of the time. So, I decided to check to see what his website says about this topic:

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/can-a-christian-lose-their-salvation



Now, I'm not claiming that, since Hank Hanegraaff said it, then it must be the truth. However, I just thought it was a very clear concise answer, that I just happen to agree with.

Again the debate is not so much loose. Where is your proof one cannot walk away? Not Hanks theology but Book chapter and verse.

Jonlion
01-11-2010, 09:10 PM
Again the debate is not so much loose. Where is your proof one cannot walk away? Not Hanks theology but Book chapter and verse.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28).

Sounds emphatic to me.

If someone is saved, and truly believes then how can they ever turn away from the Lord.

However I listened to a sermon the other day about "divine tension" and this may well be another instance of that. There are some things we can never understand but this tension allows us to discuss and press into the Lord. Which is brilliant as long as we don't get to heated on it.

warriorlion
01-11-2010, 11:40 PM
I think this is really a moot point, this entire arguement. Surely that fact that Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commands, clears this issue up.

If you truely love God, then turning from Him and living in sin is not something that will sit well with you. And the Holy Spirit will bring conviction. Yeah people make mistakes and slip up, we are all sinners saved by grace.

I walked away from a Godly lifestyle about 10 years ago, and never once did I feel like I was doing right, I had tha conviction of the Holy Spirit on my life the whole time. Do I think that if God had called me home then I would have been going to hell. I dont know. Is that really important for my salvation???

As Christians if we truely love God and are obeying His commands then why does it matter if we are once saved always saved???

What right do you think you have to know the answer, are any one of us just and righteous alone, no. its only of those mysteries that frankly you will never know the answer to and you will just have to wait till you get to heaven and hope that God will explain it, the same with things like predestination. Its not important to your Salvation.

The bootom line, are you saved and are the fruits of your life showing that. If they are not, then get on your knees and seek after God's face right now. Arguing about if you always have salvation no matter what will not change a thing if you have not got a personal relationship wth the Father through Christ. end of story.