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atomdanger
12-26-2009, 11:42 PM
http://www.jesuswasnotajew.com/

So, I was listening to some of this audio,
is there ANY logic or truth to what this guy is saying?

Or any truth behind the "articles", some of you know 100x what I do about the bible so I figured I would ask.

Chris F
12-27-2009, 12:20 AM
His remarks do not lie up with scripture. Jesus was indeed a Jew and we as gentiles are adopted into the plan. I think this pastor can not differentiate between the laws of Moses and those of God. Was Jesus a Pharisee no way, but a true Jew absolutely. The book of Matthew is a false book if he is not.

Jonlion
12-27-2009, 05:51 PM
No offense but website seems disgustingly anti-semetic and so i have not bothered to listen as im sure the Pastor is trying to make some sort of "white, americanised/europeanised Jesus" because it is more palatable to his prejudices.

Lets be real, the entire Bible is pretty good evidennce to say that Jesus is a Jew.

They were/are God's chosenn people but by his grace we are now included in his glorious plan which he had all along.

atomdanger
12-27-2009, 06:15 PM
thank you

Chris F
12-27-2009, 07:24 PM
No offense but website seems disgustingly anti-semetic and so i have not bothered to listen as im sure the Pastor is trying to make some sort of "white, americanised/europeanised Jesus" because it is more palatable to his prejudices.

Lets be real, the entire Bible is pretty good evidennce to say that Jesus is a Jew.

They were/are God's chosenn people but by his grace we are now included in his glorious plan which he had all along.

It was not so much of that he was pushing as he was push another Hersey known as Replacement theology. And truth be told it is very prevalent in most every major denomination weather it be SBC, AOG, or Presbyterian etc. While not official many adherents have bought into this lie because like you said it is more palatable to their egos of they are the real chosen of God.

Play The Man
12-28-2009, 02:16 AM
It was not so much of that he was pushing as he was push another Hersey known as Replacement theology. And truth be told it is very prevalent in most every major denomination weather it be SBC, AOG, or Presbyterian etc. While not official many adherents have bought into this lie because like you said it is more palatable to their egos of they are the real chosen of God.

Who is guilty of this "heresy"?

NateR
12-28-2009, 03:16 AM
Who is guilty of this "heresy"?

Any church claiming that, because of their rejection of Jesus, the Jews have essentially been disowned by GOD and any promises made to Israel in the Old Testament are now revoked and only apply to the Christian church. In essence, they believe that the Church has replaced the Nation of Israel as GOD's Chosen People.

That's pure heresy, because if it were true then GOD would be a liar and the entire Bible would be a fraud. Thus, it's impossible to be a Christian and adhere to this theology (outside of pure ignorance, that is).

Replacement Theology also lies at the roots of the Muslim religion as well. They believe that the Jews got it wrong, so GOD replaced them with the Christians; but the Christians screwed it up just as badly, thus GOD needed to replace the Christians with Muslims.

Play The Man
12-28-2009, 03:42 AM
Any church claiming that, because of their rejection of Jesus, the Jews have essentially been disowned by GOD and any promises made to Israel in the Old Testament are now revoked and only apply to the Christian church. In essence, they believe that the Church has replaced the Nation of Israel as GOD's Chosen People.

That's pure heresy, because if it were true then GOD would be a liar and the entire Bible would be a fraud. Thus, it's impossible to be a Christian and adhere to this theology (outside of pure ignorance, that is).

Replacement Theology also lies at the roots of the Muslim religion as well. They believe that the Jews got it wrong, so GOD replaced them with the Christians; but the Christians screwed it up just as badly, thus GOD needed to replace the Christians with Muslims.

I think there are two issues here. I looked at the link that Atom posted and it seemed "looney-tune". I didn't bother to listen to the audio after I saw posts which seemed to indicate holocaust-denial and blaming the 9/11 attacks on Jewish people. I didn't want to waste my time. If this is replacement theology, then I agree.

Sometimes believers in Dispensationalism accuse believers in Covenant theology and/or Amillennialism of "Replacement theology". If that is the case, then I would disagree with the charge of heresy for that position.

Jonlion
12-28-2009, 03:38 PM
It was not so much of that he was pushing as he was push another Hersey known as Replacement theology. And truth be told it is very prevalent in most every major denomination weather it be SBC, AOG, or Presbyterian etc. While not official many adherents have bought into this lie because like you said it is more palatable to their egos of they are the real chosen of God.

I am still trying to understand the place of christians and Jews and what happens at the end of days.
I have my study book on the Revalation, so hopefully I can understand a little better.

The twelve tribes are mentioned in John's revelation and I want to know what is going to happen.

Chris F
12-28-2009, 07:31 PM
I am still trying to understand the place of christians and Jews and what happens at the end of days.
I have my study book on the Revalation, so hopefully I can understand a little better.

The twelve tribes are mentioned in John's revelation and I want to know what is going to happen.

Bottom line the guy was a looney toon who had some major issues. The best place to search for answers about this is Paul's writings and the 2 books by Peter. They as well as the book of acts do a great Job putting the Jew gentile discussion in context. The end days debate is best summed up in that scripture says they will recognize whom they had pierce. Meaning the Jews who are true will also bow to Christ as Messiah. Great study either way and I am sure you will enjoy it.

Chris F
12-28-2009, 07:32 PM
I think there are two issues here. I looked at the link that Atom posted and it seemed "looney-tune". I didn't bother to listen to the audio after I saw posts which seemed to indicate holocaust-denial and blaming the 9/11 attacks on Jewish people. I didn't want to waste my time. If this is replacement theology, then I agree.

Sometimes believers in Dispensational eschatology accuse believers in Covenant theology and/or Amillennialism of "Replacement theology". If that is the case, then I would disagree with the charge of heresy for that position.

Could you explain what you mean by this a little more so I undertsand your point without assumption. I think I have the gist but do not want to misrepresent your views.

I will say this Replacement Theology has nothing to do with eschatology it is purely based on God's plans for the Jews and the church. Some falsely attribute the church as God's new chosen people and this is what makes it wrong. This would mean as Nate has said the Bible is a great big lie. The subject you are speaking of is another theological debate all together.

Play The Man
12-29-2009, 12:15 AM
Could you explain what you mean by this a little more so I undertsand your point without assumption. I think I have the gist but do not want to misrepresent your views.

I will say this Replacement Theology has nothing to do with eschatology it is purely based on God's plans for the Jews and the church. Some falsely attribute the church as God's new chosen people and this is what makes it wrong. This would mean as Nate has said the Bible is a great big lie. The subject you are speaking of is another theological debate all together.

http://http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/the-latest-post/2008/6/9/does-your-church-teach-replacement-theology.html


According to a recent email from the "Jerusalem Prayer Team," here are the questions to ask so as to determine whether or not your church teaches "replacement theology." (h.t. Rich Barcellos).

_______________________________________________

Why the Church Should Support Israel

Many Christians ask me, “How do I know if my church is a Bible-believing church that doesn't teach replacement theology, progressive dispensationalism or supersessionism?”

Ask yourself some questions:

1.Does my church pray for the Jewish people, the peace of Jerusalem, and Israel?
2.Does my church give offerings of compassion to comfort them?
3.Does my church preach on Israel and its Biblical significance?
4.Does my church take tours of Israel?
5.Is there an Israeli flag in my church?
6.Does my church teach on the significance of Church’s Jewish roots?
7.Does my church have a Night to Honor Israel or Jerusalem Prayer Summit annually?
8.Does my church ever preach against replacement theology, progressive dispensationaism, or supersessionism?
If the answer to these questions is “No,” then you may be a member of a church that refuses to believe the Bible, and rejects God’s Eternal promises to the House of Israel. If your church seems powerless, and appears not to be blessed by God, perhaps this is the reason.

___________________________________

These eight questions are taken from Mike Evan's book Why Christians Should Support Israel.

Hmmm . . . How does Christ Reformed stack up in light of these eight questions?


1). In one sense, we pray for the Jewish people every Lord's Day in our pastoral prayer. "We pray first for your benediction on your holy Gospel, that it may be faithfully proclaimed and the world filled with the knowledge of your truth. To that end, please send workers into your field to plant, water, and harvest a people for your name. But frustrate the work of those who would sow weeds of heresy and discord. Pull down all of the strongholds of Satan in this world and establish your kingdom throughout the earth. Please give fatherly attention to your servants who suffer persecution for the sake of the Gospel and strengthen them in mind and body by your Spirit through the means of grace. "

We also pray this collect every Good Friday: "MERCIFUL God, who has made all people, and hates nothing that you have made, nor do you desires the death of a sinner, but rather that they should be converted and live; Have mercy upon all who know you not as you are revealed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and have mercy upon your ancient people Israel. Take from them all ignorance, hardness of heart, and contempt of your Word; and so bring them home, blessed Lord, to your fold, that they may be made one flock with us under one shepherd, Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, world without end. Amen. "

2). Not sure what that means . . . I hope we'd be compassionate to all people . . . I take Paul's words to heart in Romans 10:1; 11:17, 28.


3). Yes, we teach and preach about Israel's significance. We talk about Jesus Christ--who is the true Israel--every Sunday.

4). No tours of Israel. I've been to Israel and would love to go again, but no, we don't take tours to Israel.

5). Sorry, there are no flags in our sanctuary--no Israeli flag, no American flag, no Christian flag.


6). Yes, we teach about the church's Jewish roots and we show how all the Old Testament types and shadows are fulfilled in Christ.

7). Nope--no nights devoted to praying for the Jerusalem Prayer Summit. But, see number one above. We do pray together for the conversion of Israel at least once a year (every Good Friday).

8). Do we teach against replacement theology? I'll have to think about this one (smile) . . .

So, are we teaching "replacement theology"?


Absolutely not! We don't teach "replacement theology" because we don't believe the church "replaces" Israel (but that's another story for another time).

OK . . . so how does your church stack up? Do you go to one of those "powerless" churches that isn't blessed by God because it doesn't agree with Mike Evans and the Jerusalem Prayer Team?


I found this post via google search. It should give you the gist of what I am talking about.

Chris F
12-29-2009, 12:18 AM
http://http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/the-latest-post/2008/6/9/does-your-church-teach-replacement-theology.html



I found this post via google search. It should give you the gist of what I am talking about.

I think we are on the same page based on this. I would run from any church that taught replacement theology. Sadly there are some out there in every denomination.

Play The Man
12-29-2009, 12:21 AM
http://http://ateam.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/2/12/3520704.html


3) Since you brought it up, I'm always baffled when the "replacement theology" charge is made against covenant theology. We hold that God has always had one way of saving his people, yet dispensationalists believe God has had at least two different plans for redemption. Doesn't that make dispensationalism the real "replacement theology"?
I too am baffled by the charge, because I don’t know of any current amillennial writers who speak of the church as “replacing Israel.” As you point out, God will save his elect. There is only one gospel throughout both testaments--Romans 4 comes to mind here.

In the Old Testament, the elect (those who are truly members of the covenant of grace–who believed the promise as did Abraham) were almost exclusively Israelites. But you also have people like Melchizadek, who is a type of Christ, and to whom Abraham pays tithes. When Jonah preaches in Nineveh, we read that many repented (Jonah 3:6-10). When Israel entered Canaan, the Gibeonites tricked Joshua so as to be included in the covenant with YHWH (Joshua 9). Presumably there were elect believers in Nineveh and among the Gibeonites, who were outside the boundary of national Israel and who somehow believed YHWH would save them from their sins. It is important to notice that as the gospel spreads from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8), the focus dramatically shifts to elect Gentiles coming to faith. That said, I do believe that in Romans 9-11, Paul teaches that immediately before the end of the age vast numbers of ethnic Jews will come to faith in Christ and join Christ’s church.

When Jesus began his messianic ministry, he started with twelve disciples and a few additional followers. By the time of his death and resurrection, there are still relatively few believers in Israel outside the apostolic circle (Nicodemus, comes to mind). After Pentecost, thousands more come to faith–primarily Jews initially, but then we see an increasing number of Gentiles embracing Israel’s Messiah. So, it is not as though the church “replaces” Israel. Rather, Christ is the true Israel, and when he comes, he adds a gazillion Gentiles (who are elect) to his church. To speak of amillennialism as though we reject Israel on some sort of racial basis–thereby opening the door to anti-Semitism–is a sad case of a straw-man argument. A while back, I responded to a recent lecture given by John MacArthur on this very subject. Your readers might find it helpful. http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/a-reply-to-john-macarthur/

And yes, you are absolutely right. It is ironic that the dispensationalists divide what Christ has joined together (Ephesians 2:11-22) by emphasizing different redemptive programs for Jew and Gentile. This “replaces” the one gospel which has one purpose (to make Jew and Gentile one), with one gospel with two purposes (one for Jew and one for Gentile). Ironically, this separates the very people (Jew and Gentile) Christ came to join together into one body.



The results of another Google search. This is what I was referring to earlier.

Chris F
12-29-2009, 02:37 AM
http://http://ateam.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/2/12/3520704.html




The results of another Google search. This is what I was referring to earlier.

Maybe the laity thinks like this but most theologians do not compare replacement theology with dispensationalism. They are not comparable in this basis ideas. I think some one is trying to force a personal theology onto the subject.

For the record since it was brought up I am not a dispensationalist so my opinions just may well be skewed by that fact.

Mark
12-29-2009, 02:42 AM
Chris what do you think of this? Do you do this? Thought of doing this?




1.Does my church pray for the Jewish people, the peace of Jerusalem, and Israel?
2.Does my church give offerings of compassion to comfort them?
3.Does my church preach on Israel and its Biblical significance?
4.Does my church take tours of Israel?
5.Is there an Israeli flag in my church?
6.Does my church teach on the significance of Church’s Jewish roots?
7.Does my church have a Night to Honor Israel or Jerusalem Prayer Summit annually?
8.Does my church ever preach against replacement theology, progressive dispensationaism, or supersessionism?
If the answer to these questions is “No,” then you may be a member of a church that refuses to believe the Bible, and rejects God’s Eternal promises to the House of Israel. If your church seems powerless, and appears not to be blessed by God, perhaps this is the reason.

Chris F
12-29-2009, 05:02 AM
Chris what do you think of this? Do you do this? Thought of doing this?




1.Does my church pray for the Jewish people, the peace of Jerusalem, and Israel? Yes as scripture says we should
2.Does my church give offerings of compassion to comfort them? Not sure what my church does on this issue. When I was a pastor the answer was yes
3.Does my church preach on Israel and its Biblical significance?Myself, yes. Not sure again on my current church not there enough to know. Usually at work
4.Does my church take tours of Israel? Not sure but one does not need to go there in my opinion to experience it
5.Is there an Israeli flag in my church? No and my personal feelings are there should be no flags in the church itself. But that is my personal feelings
6.Does my church teach on the significance of Church’s Jewish roots? Yes and so do I. One cannot understand scripture without knowing the roots
7.Does my church have a Night to Honor Israel or Jerusalem Prayer Summit annually? Yes
8.Does my church ever preach against replacement theology, progressive dispensationaism, or supersessionism? Not sure but I did and still do
If the answer to these questions is “No,” then you may be a member of a church that refuses to believe the Bible, and rejects God’s Eternal promises to the House of Israel. If your church seems powerless, and appears not to be blessed by God, perhaps this is the reason.

Paul said for the Jew first and many other places it is clear that the Jewish people and their heritage is not changed only lost till they accept Christ as Messiah which is what Matthew was written to help. These are my beliefs and I believe they are confirmed in scripture. The church never replaces the Hebrew nation as His chosen people we are graphed in and adopted in.