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Mark
12-23-2009, 02:58 AM
Believers, nonbelievers or both?

Chuck
12-23-2009, 03:06 AM
Believers, nonbelievers or both?

Excellent question but I think you need to define "church" for us before we could get too deep into the question.

Do you mean church as in the brick and mortar building that we go to 1 or 2 times a week to worship?

Church can also be defined as a gathering together of believers. If a group of believers to together at your farm for some fellowship or study it could be called "church" but it would have a different purpose or goal than a stand alone house of worship we all gather at weekly.


So what exactly do you mean by Church brother??

Boomer
12-23-2009, 03:08 AM
We don't go to church, we are the church. God's body of believers with Christ as the head.

Our acts of worship build community which stregthens each others faith to go out into the world to function as Christians at whatever God has put before us.

Mark
12-23-2009, 03:14 AM
Excellent question but I think you need to define "church" for us before we could get too deep into the question.

Do you mean church as in the brick and mortar building that we go to 1 or 2 times a week to worship?

Church can also be defined as a gathering together of believers. If a group of believers to together at your farm for some fellowship or study it could be called "church" but it would have a different purpose or goal than a stand alone house of worship we all gather at weekly.


So what exactly do you mean by Church brother??

Sunday morning.

Mark
12-23-2009, 03:15 AM
We don't go to church, we are the church. God's body of believers with Christ as the head.

Our acts of worship build community which stregthens each others faith to go out into the world to function as Christians at whatever God has put before us.

So you think believers?

Boomer
12-23-2009, 03:22 AM
So you think believers?

Yes ... I do. The Bible says that He gave us the five fold ministers for the equipping of the saints. thats where we get equipped. :wink: (not JUST Sunday mornings)

Mark
12-23-2009, 03:28 AM
Yes ... I do. The Bible says that He gave us the five fold ministers for the equipping of the saints. thats where we get equipped. :wink: (not JUST Sunday mornings)

If a non believer comes to church is that OK?
Can a non believer become a member of the church?

MattHughesRocks
12-23-2009, 03:33 AM
If someone really didn't believe I doubt they would be going into a church in the first place.

Boomer
12-23-2009, 03:34 AM
If a non believer comes to church is that OK?
Can a non believer become a member of the church?

Yea, it's ok for someone who does not believe in Christ to come to a Sunday service. The sense of community and God's presents has turned many a folk to him.

No .... the term in itself is contradictory. Again since we do not go to church, but are the church ... all of our members as Christ body believe and belong to Him. If you do not believe, you cannot belong.

NateR
12-23-2009, 03:36 AM
The word "church" in the Bible is actually the Greek word ekklesia, which means "congregation" or "assembly." So it's a reference to GOD's people, those who dedicate their lives to following Him. The actually physical location of the church is irrelevant.

So, with that understanding, I would say that the "church" is for believers to learn about GOD, to be accountable to each other, and to grow together in Christ.

Now you can bring a non-believer to a church meeting but they will never be a part of the church unless they accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't false believers inside the church. According to the parable of the sower (Matthew 13), 2 out of every 3 church members are false believers. That means that over 66% of the church is going to Hell (some would say that number is overly optimistic). This is why GOD will bring His judgement down upon the church first, then the unbelievers.

This also helps to explain why so many church members today seem to be intent on steering their congregations down a liberal path with no concern about what GOD's Word actually says.

Silverback
12-23-2009, 03:38 AM
Believers, nonbelievers or both?

If I had to answer that question I would say both. I am a believer, but would that be the reason a nonbeliever should be welcome, to become a believer, to learn about God and make the leap from NB to believer. As Boomer points out,"to stregthens each others faith to go out into the world to function as Christians at whatever God has put before us.

Chris F
12-23-2009, 03:46 AM
I think Boomer said it best. This is why it baffles me that people think inviting one to church is how they get saved. Sadly we've dumbed church down to make it more consumer friendly for the unbelievers. It is a place to be equipped for the ministry which is our daily lives.

que
12-23-2009, 04:03 AM
since church is a manmade institution i think it is up to us to decide. i don't think there is one set of universal rules on this because each church is different, and there are so so many different churches. it should be left up to the pastor and elders

but as we all know when Jesus gave his sermons on top the hills during his time on earth to teach about God he did it for everyone, believers and nonbelievers alike.

NateR
12-23-2009, 04:50 AM
since church is a manmade institution i think it is up to us to decide. i don't think there is one set of universal rules on this because each church is different, and there are so so many different churches. it should be left up to the pastor and elders

but as we all know when Jesus gave his sermons on top the hills during his time on earth to teach about God he did it for everyone, believers and nonbelievers alike.

Actually, Jesus' messages were primarily directed at the Israelites. The very people who worshipped in the Temple and had studied the Torah their entire lives.

The same terms "congregation" and "assembly" were used in the Old Testament to describe the people of Israel. So, you could actually say that Jesus was speaking to the "church" of Israel first and foremost, when He talked. I think Paul understood this when he stated that the Gospel was for the "Jew first."

There is no linguistic distinction in the Bible between the "church" and the nation of Israel. The word "church" was added into the Bible, centuries after it was originally written, to create an artificial, man-made barrier between Jews and Christians. That was never GOD's intention.

Jonlion
12-23-2009, 05:58 AM
Well church in the way we see it (services on sunday etc), should be welcome to everyone, believers and non believers.

The moment you exclude people from coming in, then you become isolated, out of touch, aloof, arrogant and most sadly Prideful.

That is not what the Gospel teaches us. The door is open to all, whatever leaning they may be because we want to show them the Gospel, we want them to believe in our saviour.

It is my firm belief that the church, and we as a christian body have a duty to immerse ourselves in society and try to build up, and show in our example God working in our lives and how it is the most joyous place to be.

Non-believers won't be members until they become believers.

I am going to try and get the scripture from the OT that tells us that really whilst the way we live our lives sets us apart, we become wholly involved in trying to build up the City, places that we live in. Like the exiled Jews in Bablyon were.

I shall try to find this part for you guys

Tyburn
12-23-2009, 11:54 AM
Believers, nonbelievers or both?

Both. :)

non rambling enough for ya :laugh:

Llamafighter
12-23-2009, 12:16 PM
Both. :)

non rambling enough for ya :laugh:

:scared0011::scared0011:

I agree with you, Dave:wink:

to me, it would be like only letting people fluent in Spanish, take a class in Spanish language. by attending, they are only going to learn more. Those who are already fluent will only strengthen their skills, and will also be able to guid their brothers and sister, and those who have never spoken a word of Spanish will only gain knowledge.

rearnakedchoke
12-23-2009, 01:46 PM
so there are non-believers and believers, but what about believers, who think they are believers, but don't live like believers, so in essence, they are non-believers?

NateR
12-23-2009, 02:06 PM
so there are non-believers and believers, but what about believers, who think they are believers, but don't live like believers, so in essence, they are non-believers?

Well, those would most likely be non-believers or false believers. Remember the passage about GOD separating the sheep from the goats? (Matthew 25:31-46) Well the false believers in the church are the goats that those verses are talking about and they will be separated from the true believers and cast into Hell.

Llamafighter
12-23-2009, 02:12 PM
so there are non-believers and believers, but what about believers, who think they are believers, but don't live like believers, so in essence, they are non-believers?

Do they believe that they are believers or do they without question believe in Christ? I think that is the difference.

Chris F
12-23-2009, 06:27 PM
Actually, Jesus' messages were primarily directed at the Israelites. The very people who worshipped in the Temple and had studied the Torah their entire lives.

The same terms "congregation" and "assembly" were used in the Old Testament to describe the people of Israel. So, you could actually say that Jesus was speaking to the "church" of Israel first and foremost, when He talked. I think Paul understood this when he stated that the Gospel was for the "Jew first."

There is no linguistic distinction in the Bible between the "church" and the nation of Israel. The word "church" was added into the Bible, centuries after it was originally written, to create an artificial, man-made barrier between Jews and Christians. That was never GOD's intention.

Excelent points. The gentiles were adopted and graphed into the fold and never replaces the jews.

Chris F
12-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Do they believe that they are believers or do they without question believe in Christ? I think that is the difference.

Even the devil and all the demons believe in Christ so that is not all that is needed for salvation. I think this modern day error has alot of people trapped with a false sense of secruity.

Llamafighter
12-23-2009, 08:20 PM
Even the devil and all the demons believe in Christ so that is not all that is needed for salvation. I think this modern day error has alot of people trapped with a false sense of secruity.

I actually have no sense of security. that's the goal for me.

Tyburn
12-23-2009, 08:34 PM
Even the devil and all the demons believe in Christ so that is not all that is needed for salvation. I think this modern day error has alot of people trapped with a false sense of secruity.

Belief IS enough.

BUT....you do have to be Human.

Angelic Belief is not enough...the Offer of Salvation isnt made for Demons anymore then its made for goldfish...whether they believe or not.


Secondly. They dont believe, they acknowledge. There is a slight difference. They dont believe that Christ died to save them...they simply acknowledge who Christ is...well thats not even enough for a Human...almost ever Athiest knows who Christ is...that doesnt mean they believe in him. Acknowledging is NOT the same as having Faith.

Jonlion
12-23-2009, 09:19 PM
It always intrigues me in the Gospels that Demons instantly regonise Jesus as sovereign, they fear him, they fear his coming. And they do exactly as he commands, whereas we seemingly ignore, disobey or just fail.

What do people think about the Legion's that beg to be put in the Pigs?

We done this in bible study a few weeks ago and wasn't one hundred percent on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NateR
12-23-2009, 09:21 PM
Belief IS enough.

Read the book of James and then tell me if you still think that.

surveyorshawn
12-23-2009, 10:06 PM
The word "church" in the Bible is actually the Greek word ekklesia, which means "congregation" or "assembly." So it's a reference to GOD's people, those who dedicate their lives to following Him. The actually physical location of the church is irrelevant.

So, with that understanding, I would say that the "church" is for believers to learn about GOD, to be accountable to each other, and to grow together in Christ.

Now you can bring a non-believer to a church meeting but they will never be a part of the church unless they accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't false believers inside the church. According to the parable of the sower (Matthew 13), 2 out of every 3 church members are false believers. That means that over 66% of the church is going to Hell (some would say that number is overly optimistic). This is why GOD will bring His judgement down upon the church first, then the unbelievers.

This also helps to explain why so many church members today seem to be intent on steering their congregations down a liberal path with no concern about what GOD's Word actually says.

Back in the 80's or 90's, Billy Graham did some studies that put the number of truly saved people in any given church on any given Sunday at around 25% or 30%, or so he was quoted in several sermons I've heard

Tyburn
12-23-2009, 10:08 PM
Read the book of James and then tell me if you still think that.

I still belief that. Salvation isnt about works of faith, although those are probably proof that one has faith. Salvation is a free gift and all you need to do is accept that free gift.

Salvation is a gift of grace, there isnt any work you have to achieve in order to obtain it, there is also no work you can do, bar the unforgivable sin, to looose the gift either. Its only offered to restore mankinds position in eden, ergo its not open to Angelic Host of any sort whatsoever.

Now the process of faith and a christ centred life AFTER conversion...well thats different...but thats about building on the cornerstone...its not about the cornerstone itself. Before you have works of faith, you have to have the faith in the first place.

Now...if...say...you already have a faith...like, for example, the Jews..then its slightly easier to jump right to works stemming from faith because the only thing you have to tweak is a bit of theology.

Saint Paul writes to the Heathen...but I suspect James was writing to the Messianic Jews...that might account for the differences in emphasis. Jews just need to repent and be saved, just change their theology. They already believe in GOD...they just need a deeper level of Revelation

Well half the people that Saint Paul wrote to...never had that belief in the first place. Try and think of it like this. Saint Paul teaches the begginners class on Salvation, the actually concepts of Faith to those that knew nothing. Saint James is writting the advanced class, for those who already have faith, how then it might be used, those he wrote to already understood more then the heathen.

Maglorius
12-23-2009, 10:16 PM
The church can be broken down into five groups. The church can be believers in a specific building, believers in a city/town, believers in a state/province, believers in a country and believers in the world. They are all under the same devine authority.

Church is for believers to come together to be equipped, edified, taught and encouraged to take the word to the world. Church is also for non believers because it is where they will hear the word preached(hopefully) because Faith comes from hearing and through hearing the word of the Lord.

Church membership is only for believers and should be a covenant membership. Unfortunately most church's only ask you to show up to a membership class and your in.

A good book I just recently read that talks about this very thing is Vintage Church by Mark Driscoll and Gerry Brashears. There is not a detail about the church they did not miss.

Tyburn
12-23-2009, 10:21 PM
Unfortunately most church's only ask you to show up to a membership class and your in.

.


The Brethren Dont

My Mother was originally Brethren you know.

bradwright
12-24-2009, 12:13 AM
as i do not go to a brick and mortar church i consider this site that is provided by Matt to be my church...this is where i come to learn more about God and i do so by reading posts from the members of this forum (and every once in a while i will ask a few questions ).... i know this may sound stupid to some of you but am i wrong ?:unsure-1:

Chuck
12-24-2009, 12:59 AM
as i do not go to a brick and mortar church i consider this site that is provided by Matt to be my church...this is where i come to learn more about God and i do so by reading posts from the members of this forum (and every once in a while i will ask a few questions ).... i know this may sound stupid to some of you but am i wrong ?:unsure-1:

I don't think that's wrong brother but you have better options available to you. :wink:

Coming here to learn is cool but don't build your relationship with Christ based off of anything you read here. Your faith, your foundation.. the rock that you stand on in your time of need has to be based on Christ and what God's word says. All you will find here is other people's (some wonderful, very bright people) interpretations of scripture. But you can't stand on our faith... you need to make sure you're building your own. :laugh:

I would also encourage you to find a local church to worship at. There really is no substitute for fellowship with other believers.

Come to Florida bro!!! Worship with me!!!

MattHughesRocks
12-24-2009, 04:26 AM
bradwright listen to Chuck :wink:

bradwright
12-24-2009, 02:03 PM
I don't think that's wrong brother but you have better options available to you. :wink:

Coming here to learn is cool but don't build your relationship with Christ based off of anything you read here. Your faith, your foundation.. the rock that you stand on in your time of need has to be based on Christ and what God's word says. All you will find here is other people's (some wonderful, very bright people) interpretations of scripture. But you can't stand on our faith... you need to make sure you're building your own. :laugh:

I would also encourage you to find a local church to worship at. There really is no substitute for fellowship with other believers.

Come to Florida bro!!! Worship with me!!!

well Chuck i have had a relationship with God for most of my life but i have always struggled with organized religion and although i have attended church numerous times over the years i find after a while that a lot of people that I have come in contact with who claim to be Christians simply just are not and thats what keeps me away.

this site however allows me see a lot of different points of view on many subjects pertaining to God and i find most of the discussions very interesting and it helps me better understand my own relationship with God.:)
that Chuck is why i consider this place to be my church so to speak...its where i come to be with other people that are believers that discuss God openly.

and thanks for the invitation but i will have to respectfully decline,you see Florida is just way to hot for me...after all i am from Canada.:wink:

Jonlion
12-27-2009, 04:55 PM
The church can be broken down into five groups. The church can be believers in a specific building, believers in a city/town, believers in a state/province, believers in a country and believers in the world. They are all under the same devine authority.

Church is for believers to come together to be equipped, edified, taught and encouraged to take the word to the world. Church is also for non believers because it is where they will hear the word preached(hopefully) because Faith comes from hearing and through hearing the word of the Lord.

Church membership is only for believers and should be a covenant membership. Unfortunately most church's only ask you to show up to a membership class and your in.

A good book I just recently read that talks about this very thing is Vintage Church by Mark Driscoll and Gerry Brashears. There is not a detail about the church they did not miss.

Driscoll is a wonderful man of God, Ill try to look into this book