PDA

View Full Version : The fact that he's being sued over this angers me!


KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-11-2009, 01:45 AM
Monday, February 9, 2009
16 illegals sue Arizona rancher
Jerry Seper (Contact)
An Arizona man who has waged a 10-year campaign to stop a flood of illegal immigrants from crossing his property is being sued by 16 Mexican nationals who accuse him of conspiring to violate their civil rights when he stopped them at gunpoint on his ranch on the U.S.-Mexico border.

Roger Barnett, 64, began rounding up illegal immigrants in 1998 and turning them over to the U.S. Border Patrol, he said, after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home.

His Cross Rail Ranch near Douglas, Ariz., is known by federal and county law enforcement authorities as "the avenue of choice" for immigrants seeking to enter the United States illegally.

Trial continues Monday in the federal lawsuit, which seeks $32 million in actual and punitive damages for civil rights violations, the infliction of emotional distress and other crimes. Also named are Mr. Barnett's wife, Barbara, his brother, Donald, and Larry Dever, sheriff in Cochise County, Ariz., where the Barnetts live. The civil trial is expected to continue until Friday.

The lawsuit is based on a March 7, 2004, incident in a dry wash on the 22,000-acre ranch, when he approached a group of illegal immigrants while carrying a gun and accompanied by a large dog.

Attorneys for the immigrants - five women and 11 men who were trying to cross illegally into the United States - have accused Mr. Barnett of holding the group captive at gunpoint, threatening to turn his dog loose on them and saying he would shoot anyone who tried to escape.

The immigrants are represented at trial by the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), which also charged that Sheriff Dever did nothing to prevent Mr. Barnett from holding their clients at "gunpoint, yelling obscenities at them and kicking one of the women."

In the lawsuit, MALDEF said Mr. Barnett approached the group as the immigrants moved through his property, and that he was carrying a pistol and threatening them in English and Spanish. At one point, it said, Mr. Barnett's dog barked at several of the women and he yelled at them in Spanish, "My dog is hungry and he's hungry for buttocks."

The lawsuit said he then called his wife and two Border Patrol agents arrived at the site. It also said Mr. Barnett acknowledged that he had turned over 12,000 illegal immigrants to the Border Patrol since 1998.

In March, U.S. District Judge John Roll rejected a motion by Mr. Barnett to have the charges dropped, ruling there was sufficient evidence to allow the matter to be presented to a jury. Mr. Barnett's attorney, David Hardy, had argued that illegal immigrants did not have the same rights as U.S. citizens.

Mr. Barnett told The Washington Times in a 2002 interview that he began rounding up illegal immigrants after they started to vandalize his property, northeast of Douglas along Arizona Highway 80. He said the immigrants tore up water pumps, killed calves, destroyed fences and gates, stole trucks and broke into his home.

Some of his cattle died from ingesting the plastic bottles left behind by the immigrants, he said, adding that he installed a faucet on an 8,000-gallon water tank so the immigrants would stop damaging the tank to get water.

Mr. Barnett said some of the ranch´s established immigrant trails were littered with trash 10 inches deep, including human waste, used toilet paper, soiled diapers, cigarette packs, clothes, backpacks, empty 1-gallon water bottles, chewing-gum wrappers and aluminum foil - which supposedly is used to pack the drugs the immigrant smugglers give their "clients" to keep them running.

He said he carried a pistol during his searches for the immigrants and had a rifle in his truck "for protection" against immigrant and drug smugglers, who often are armed.

A former Cochise County sheriff´s deputy who later was successful in the towing and propane business, Mr. Barnett spent $30,000 on electronic sensors, which he has hidden along established trails on his ranch. He searches the ranch for illegal immigrants in a pickup truck, dressed in a green shirt and camouflage hat, with his handgun and rifle, high-powered binoculars and a walkie-talkie.

His sprawling ranch became an illegal-immigration highway when the Border Patrol diverted its attention to several border towns in an effort to take control of the established ports of entry. That effort moved the illegal immigrants to the remote areas of the border, including the Cross Rail Ranch.

"This is my land. I´m the victim here," Mr. Barnett said. "When someone´s home and loved ones are in jeopardy and the government seemingly can´t do anything about it, I feel justified in taking matters into my own hands. And I always watch my back."

NateR
02-11-2009, 01:51 AM
Yeah, this is ridiculous. They were entering the country ILLEGALLY and TRESPASSING on this man's land. This Arizona man is a victim, not a criminal.

This kind of thing really angers me as well.

Bonnie
02-11-2009, 01:59 AM
Well, I'd like to say I think the United States government and justice system will come out on the side of the American, but sadly, after what has happened to those two border patrol guards (yeah, I know, their sentences were "commuted" by Bush--pathetic and disgraceful!!!) I don't hold out much hope for that rancher. :angry:

Deerstabber
02-11-2009, 02:01 AM
What the hell is this country coming too. I think there lucky he wasn't using them for target practice.

NateR
02-11-2009, 02:10 AM
If this Arizona landowner loses this case, then I guess we'll need to redefine burglary to mean "when a greedy homeowner refuses to share his wealth with you."

rearnakedchoke
02-11-2009, 02:16 AM
There are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there, so this isn't surprising .... the problem isn't the immigrants entering illegally, it is the people that are giving them the jobs in the first place .... this landowner, win or lose this suit should file a lawsuit against the people that are giving these people jobs

Bonnie
02-11-2009, 02:19 AM
Yeah, this is ridiculous. They were entering the country ILLEGALLY and TRESPASSING on this man's land. This Arizona man is a victim, not a criminal.

This kind of thing really angers me as well.

Nathan, do you know they (I don't know if it was the state of Texas or the U.S. gov't) actually gave that illegal drug runner a "pass" to go back and forth from Mexico into the U.S. while they sent those two TX border patrol agents to prison. I still don't understand why the TX Attorney General (I think it was him) pursued those agents the way he did when they were doing their job. Sometimes I can't help but think that something fishy is up with our government and these southern states not seeming to "want" to protect our borders against these illegals and drug criminals. I love my country, but the decisions that are being made regarding our citizens is outrageous!

Llamafighter
02-11-2009, 02:21 AM
Next time he'll have to get all "Young Guns" and regulate em!
This case should be laughed out of court and the prosecuter disbarred

J.B.
02-11-2009, 02:27 AM
I think the argument of "civil rights violations" is just ridiculous. They are trespassing and he has the right to protect his land.

However, the other reports on this story have been that this guy has been accused in the past of assaulting people he was detaining, and supposedly he is a raging racist. Now, being a racist is not illegal, and of course he can and should protect his land, but kicking a woman while she is on the ground is just ridiculous.

He should have just called the border patrol and let them handle it. I know the BP is understaffed, and I have been all over those dense southern regions of Arizona, and it's a tough area to monitor. BUT..he is actually pretty stupid to be out there trying to detain these people all by himself considering how many VERY dangerous people are crossing over all the time.

Spiritwalker
02-11-2009, 02:38 AM
Yeah, this is ridiculous. They were entering the country ILLEGALLY and TRESPASSING on this man's land. This Arizona man is a victim, not a criminal.

This kind of thing really angers me as well.


I don't call him "victim", I call him admirable. Hopefully a jury of his peers will nullify.

Unless he actually hurt them.. and even then.. I am not sure I would be too concerned.

Llamafighter
02-11-2009, 03:01 AM
"This is my land. I´m the victim here," Mr. Barnett said. "When someone´s home and loved ones are in jeopardy and the government seemingly can´t do anything about it, I feel justified in taking matters into my own hands. And I always watch my back."


That wins the case for this rancher, in my book!

atomdanger
02-11-2009, 03:20 AM
WTF


Somebody please slap me and remind me what country we live in.

Chuck
02-11-2009, 03:27 AM
It just baffles me that any "rights" at all are extended to people in this country illegally. That's a serious WTF???

I think the rights we have in this counrty should be reserved for it's citizens and those here legally.

But what do I know??

Josh
02-11-2009, 04:56 AM
I think the argument of "civil rights violations" is just ridiculous. They are trespassing and he has the right to protect his land.

However, the other reports on this story have been that this guy has been accused in the past of assaulting people he was detaining, and supposedly he is a raging racist. Now, being a racist is not illegal, and of course he can and should protect his land, but kicking a woman while she is on the ground is just ridiculous.
He should have just called the border patrol and let them handle it. I know the BP is understaffed, and I have been all over those dense southern regions of Arizona, and it's a tough area to monitor. BUT..he is actually pretty stupid to be out there trying to detain these people all by himself considering how many VERY dangerous people are crossing over all the time.
Racism is stupid but it doesn't make what he did any worse. I am of the opinion that if he kicked a woman than he should be kicked by a horse until he dies but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to detain people. It's his property after all.

Moose
02-11-2009, 05:29 AM
You can be sued for anything at anytime. Do I think that illegal immigrants should be able to sue a man who didn't physically harm them while they were breaking the law on his property? No. Not at all. Luckily, he lives in a red state, and they have a much better record for protecting homeowners and property holders rights.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
02-11-2009, 05:45 AM
Of course their gonna play the race card! It has a history of being a very powerful card to use!

County Mike
02-11-2009, 11:35 AM
I don't blame him for taking matters into his own hands. The illegal immigrants aren't just crossing his property. They're damaging, stealing and even killing his livestock. He should just start picking them off with a rifle and feed his pigs. Dead people don't sue you.

Deerstabber
02-11-2009, 12:37 PM
County Mike I totally agree! I wonder if he needs any help.
As for kicking the women, more power to him she got outta line kick her, she shouldn't be there in the first place.

rearnakedchoke
02-11-2009, 02:58 PM
If this guy did indeed hurt some of the people he was holding until the authorities arrived he should not only be sued but criminally charged ... don't know about US laws, but if he can't prove that he was in danger when they were under his watch (un-armed) then these people are going to win this lawsuit ...

yes, i know they are breaking the law .. but if i catch someone trying to rob a store and have him under control while i am waiting for the police, and i decide to try out my armbar on the guy and break his arm, you can be sure that i am gonna get charged if i can't prove i was doing it in self-defence

rockdawg21
02-11-2009, 03:14 PM
Kinda reminds me of the injustice given to the border patrol agents, Jose Compean and Ignacio Ramos.

For those who don't know, about the story, Compean was patrolling a section of border with another agent (Ignacio Ramos) when they spotted a man crossing the border. They stopped him in a van containing 743 pounds of marijuana, but he ran. Compean said he thought the suspect had a gun and was going to shoot him so he fired at him first. His shot missed but his partner, hearing gunfire, fired in order to defend Compean and hit the suspect in the buttocks. They lost sight of the man but said they saw him on the Mexican side of the border. They did not believe he had been injured so they did not report the incident.

The two officers were arrested after the drug smuggler, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, filed a complaint against them. After a two-week jury trial, Compean was found guilty on 11 counts, including discharging a firearm during the commission of a violent crime, which by itself carries a federally mandated 10-year minimum sentence. Without that charge, both agents involved would have received far shorter sentences. Instead, Compean was sentenced to 12 years in prison, and his partner, Ignacio Ramos, was sentenced to 11 years in prison. Aldrete Davila was granted immunity to testify against the two agents and received six border crossing visas to come to the United States and testify (you can be sure he did some drug deals with those Visas).

Anyways, these officers were finally commuted by Bush on January 19, 2009 after serving nearly 4 years in prison for defending our nation's borders from drug smugglers.

F'ing bs, I hope this guy gets his justice from those border jumpers!

Crisco
02-11-2009, 03:17 PM
County Mike I totally agree! I wonder if he needs any help.
As for kicking the women, more power to him she got outta line kick her, she shouldn't be there in the first place.

Someone should have tried harder with you.

You don't hit women. Period.

rockdawg21
02-11-2009, 03:19 PM
Someone should have tried harder with you.

You don't hit women. Period.
So if a woman punched you multiple times and wanted to enter a man's world, you would just let her continue punching you? If she wants to enter a man's world, she'll get dealt with like a man. :punch:

NateR
02-11-2009, 03:22 PM
If this guy did indeed hurt some of the people he was holding until the authorities arrived he should not only be sued but criminally charged ... don't know about US laws, but if he can't prove that he was in danger when they were under his watch (un-armed) then these people are going to win this lawsuit ...

yes, i know they are breaking the law .. but if i catch someone trying to rob a store and have him under control while i am waiting for the police, and i decide to try out my armbar on the guy and break his arm, you can be sure that i am gonna get charged if i can't prove i was doing it in self-defence

I have no problem believing that these Mexicans are just liars who will say whatever it takes to win their case. They're already entering a country illegally, trespassing, destroying someone else's property and breaking & entering; it's not much of a stretch to believe that they are capable of lying as well.

This never should have gone to trial to begin with, it's total BS.

Also, your example doesn't apply, because this guy is protecting his own land, not someone else's commercial property. It's a completely different scenario.

NateR
02-11-2009, 03:26 PM
Someone should have tried harder with you.

You don't hit women. Period.

So, you're telling me that if some drugged out, crazy woman is holding your family at gunpoint and you have the chance to take her down with a baseball bat, that you wouldn't do it?

Crisco
02-11-2009, 03:28 PM
So if a woman punched you multiple times and wanted to enter a man's world, you would just let her continue punching you? If she wants to enter a man's world, she'll get dealt with like a man. :punch:

She's laying on the floor and he allegedly kicked her. I don't see a woman doing much damage to you while laying on the floor.

If a woman was punching me I would subdue and hold her in place until she settled. I've never met a woman that could seriously hurt me by hitting me and I've met some tough chicks.

Punching or kicking a woman is wrong ESPECIALLY if on the ground. He can do whatever he wants they trespassed on his land and he should be in his rights to do what he wishes. I personally feel kicking a woman while she is down is wrong.

I commend him for his efforts but if I ever met the man and he bragged about kicking a downed woman I'd have to call him out and give him a little justice of my own.

Crisco
02-11-2009, 03:30 PM
So, you're telling me that if some drugged out, crazy woman is holding your family at gunpoint and you have the chance to take her down with a baseball bat, that you wouldn't do it?

Your using totally different circumstances then what we are discussing. Guns and knives are a different story. She isn't playing fair at that point.

On the same token if some mexican was crossing your land and you caught the chick and decided you were going to kick her while she lays at your feet scared of your gun for making you go through the trouble your just fine with that?

NateR
02-11-2009, 03:30 PM
including discharging a firearm during the commission of a violent crime, which by itself carries a federally mandated 10-year minimum sentence.

That's ridiculous, the fact that they are law enforcement officials should have rendered them immune from that stupid law.

rearnakedchoke
02-11-2009, 03:32 PM
I don't think it matters if he is protecting his land ... if they can show that he was not in physical danger and he still harmed these people, then he could be found guilty ... so if someone breaks into my house and i disarm them and are holding them hostage .. while the police are on the way, i decide to start laying a beating on them, well i think i can be charged with assault

NateR
02-11-2009, 03:33 PM
Your using totally different circumstances then what we are discussing. Guns and knives are a different story. She isn't playing fair at that point.

On the same token if some mexican was crossing your land and you caught the chick and decided you were going to kick her for making you go through the trouble your just fine with that?

No, you said "You don't hit women. Period." which is pretty much an absolute according to your words. So I simply came up with a scenario that would force you to rethink your comments.

Either the "You don't hit women. Period." statement is true and you would allow your family to be gunned down while you stuck to your principles. Or the statement is false.

With the way your phrased it, there is no middle ground.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 03:34 PM
I have no problem believing that these Mexicans are just liars who will say whatever it takes to win their case. They're already entering a country illegally, trespassing, destroying someone else's property and breaking & entering; it's not much of a stretch to believe that they are capable of lying as well.

This never should have gone to trial to begin with, it's total BS.

Also, your example doesn't apply, because this guy is protecting his own land, not someone else's commercial property. It's a completely different scenario.


Sure, they could be lying, but you don't know that.

I think RNC's point was that IF this guy is assaulting people after he detains them he should be charged. I agree with him.

It seems the popular idea floating around this thread is that the guy has this divine right to just start shooting people because they crossed onto his land. I don't think I need to explain how retarded that is. If he feels threatened, that is completely different, but just because these people are illegal immigrants does not mean they should be used as target practice. They are human beings.

The truth is, this guy should not be out there policing the area by himself to begin with. I know it's his land, but that is just DUMB, he's lucky he ain't dead by now.

NateR
02-11-2009, 03:39 PM
i decide to start laying a beating on them, well i think i can be charged with assault

Is that what happened in this situation?

J.B.
02-11-2009, 03:40 PM
Is that what happened in this situation?

according to some

Crisco
02-11-2009, 03:43 PM
No, you said "You don't hit women. Period." which is pretty much an absolute according to your words. So I simply came up with a scenario that would force you to rethink your comments.

Either the "You don't hit women. Period." statement is true and you would allow your family to be gunned down while you stuck to your principles. Or the statement is false.

With the way your phrased it, there is no middle ground.

I'll rephrase for you Nate if your in the nitpicking mood lol.

"You don't hit women who are not armed, hopped up on drugs or hurting your family in some way. Period."

NateR
02-11-2009, 03:48 PM
Sure, they could be lying, but you don't know that.

I think RNC's point was that IF this guy is assaulting people after he detains them he should be charged. I agree with him.

It seems the popular idea floating around this thread is that the guy has this divine right to just start shooting people because they crossed onto his land. I don't think I need to explain how retarded that is. If he feels threatened, that is completely different, but just because these people are illegal immigrants does not mean they should be used as target practice. They are human beings.

The truth is, this guy should not be out there policing the area by himself to begin with. I know it's his land, but that is just DUMB, he's lucky he ain't dead by now.

Have you ever lived in the desert areas near the Mexican border? Waiting for law enforcement is simply not an option most of the time. Even if the cops or border patrol were to leave instantly after receiving the call and drive 70 MPH to get to your location, many times it would still take them over an hour to arrive. Near the border areas, things are just to spread out and the BP is too severely undermanned; so people are forced to take matters into their own hands.

Now, I will agree, if he is maliciously abusing "prisoners" who are cooperating with him, then that would be assault. However, I wouldn't trust the word of the Mexicans and if he felt that he needed to use force to subdue them, then he's completely within his rights to do so.

NateR
02-11-2009, 03:51 PM
I'll rephrase for you Nate if your in the nitpicking mood lol.

"You don't hit women who are not armed, hopped up on drugs or hurting your family in some way. Period."

Thanks. :laugh:

It's just that whole mentality really irks me. My dad served in Vietnam and he will tell you that a woman (or a child) with a machine gun is just as deadly as any man. Usually a guy who hesitates to gun them down because of some silly "you never hit women" mentality, wouldn't live long enough to regret it. And his hesitation would likely cost several of his fellow soldiers their lives.

Crisco
02-11-2009, 03:53 PM
Thanks. :laugh:

It's just that whole mentality really irks me. My dad served in Vietnam and he will tell you that a woman (or a child) with a machine gun is just as deadly as any man. Usually a guy who hesitates to gun them down because of some silly "you never hit women" mentality, wouldn't live long enough to regret it. And his hesitation would likely cost several of his fellow soldiers their lives.

Except for extreme cases though there sohuld really never be any reason to hit a woman...

War and battle and extreme cases of trying to kill you are the exception but simply hitting a woman because she pisses you off is extremely over the line and shameful.

I was brought up that way and so will my kids.

NateR
02-11-2009, 04:03 PM
Except for extreme cases though there sohuld really never be any reason to hit a woman...


What if she's just being really mouthy? :Whistle:

JK :laugh: Actually I would agree with that statement.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 04:04 PM
Have you ever lived in the desert areas near the Mexican border? Waiting for law enforcement is simply not an option most of the time. Even if the cops or border patrol were to leave instantly after receiving the call and drive 70 MPH to get to your location, many times it would still take them over an hour to arrive. Near the border areas, things are just to spread out and the BP is too severely undermanned; so people are forced to take matters into their own hands.

Now, I will agree, if he is maliciously abusing "prisoners" who are cooperating with him, then that would be assault. However, I wouldn't trust the word of the Mexicans and if he felt that he needed to use force to subdue them, then he's completely within his rights to do so.

Yes Nate, actually I have. More specifically the Arizona/Mexican border area. So I am not just talking out of my ass.

That don't mean he should be out there BY HIMSELF. Also, YES waiting for law enforcement IS an option. The BP has all sorts of ways of catching these people even if it is not right at very minute you see them on your property and they do it all the time. They know those areas better than anybody and YES, the area is vast and hard to cover, but if they have intel on a group of illegals backpacking through the desert they can actually track them very easily. I just think you are more apt to believe this guy because of the political nature of this story. I am sorry, but with all the reports about how long he has been doing this, I smell vigilante cowboy.

I agree 100% with protecting your home and land, and even using force if need be, BUT in this case we simply do not know all the facts so making a judgment one way or another is just silly. If this guy was assaulting people who cooperated, he should be charged with assault, but these accusations of "civil rights violations" are ridiculous.

NateR
02-11-2009, 04:09 PM
I smell vigilante cowboy.

So, you're saying there's something wrong with that? :blink:

:tongue0011:

I just don't like the idea of the rights of American landowners being infringed upon by ILLEGAL immigrants.

VCURamFan
02-11-2009, 04:13 PM
I just don't like the idea of the rights of American landowners being infringed upon by ILLEGAL immigrants.Sig worthy.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 04:16 PM
So, you're saying there's something wrong with that? :blink:

:tongue0011:

I just don't like the idea of the rights of American landowners being infringed upon by ILLEGAL immigrants.

Not when it's a LARGE group, i.e. The Minutemen. :wink:

With more people comes more checks and balances, and more accountability. Just because these people are ILLEGAL does not make them less than human. It's not right to assault them and torment them just because they are trespassing. Also, from a safety standpoint, it's just dumb of the guy to be out there by himself, not to mention he leaves himself open to these kind of accusations with it basically being his word against theirs.

My biggest problem with this guy is all the reports of how long he has been doing this, and how many people have accused him in the past. Also, like I said before, there are a lot of reports that he a raging racist. It's not illegal to be a racist, nor do I even know if it's true that he is, but I think it's a tidbit of info that is worth noting at this point.

VCURamFan
02-11-2009, 04:20 PM
Not when it's a LARGE group, i.e. The Minutemen. :wink:

With more people comes more checks and balances, and more accountability. Just because these people are ILLEGAL does not make them less than human. It's not right to assault them and torment them just because they are trespassing. Also, from a safety standpoint, it's just dumb of the guy to be out there by himself, not to mention he leaves himself open to these kind of accusations with it basically being his word against theirs.

My biggest problem with this guy is all the reports of how long he has been doing this, and how many people have accused him in the past. Also, like I said before, there are a lot of reports that he a raging racist. It's not illegal to be a racist, nor do I even know if it's true that he is, but I think it's a tidbit of info that is worth noting at this point.I agree that being illegal doesn't make them less human, but I do believe that it makes them ineligible for rights as American citizens. If it's a question in the American legal system between a legal citizen & an illegal immigrant, I had hoped the government would lean towards protecting its citizens, not wasting its money on criminals from another country.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 04:47 PM
I agree that being illegal doesn't make them less human, but I do believe that it makes them ineligible for rights as American citizens. If it's a question in the American legal system between a legal citizen & an illegal immigrant, I had hoped the government would lean towards protecting its citizens, not wasting its money on criminals from another country.


I never said that they should get the same rights we do as per the United States Constitution. I just said that he should not be beating and tormenting them. That is bigger than the US Constitution, that is the inherit value of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

County Mike
02-11-2009, 04:47 PM
Tell the illegals that if they want to avoid this in the future, STAY IN MEXICO!

rearnakedchoke
02-11-2009, 05:05 PM
Is that what happened in this situation?

dunno .. but i did say in my original post that if it can be proven or deemed that he used excessive or unreasonable force on these people, then he should be charged .. i have no problem with him holding them there at gunpoint even if it wasn't on his property .. but if he decided to "teach 'em a lesson" by hurting them, then i have no sympathy for him

rearnakedchoke
02-11-2009, 05:11 PM
Tell the illegals that if they want to avoid this in the future, STAY IN MEXICO!

That is the problem though .. you have people being offered cash for jobs by American citizens .. more cash they can make in Mexico, so the risk of getting caught is worth the reward .. if America wants to solve the problem, they need to be more strict on the people that are offering the work .

J.B.
02-11-2009, 05:15 PM
That is the problem though .. you have people being offered cash for jobs by American citizens .. more cash they can make in Mexico, so the risk of getting caught is worth the reward .. if America wants to solve the problem, they need to be more strict on the people that are offering the work .

Agreed, although we have been cracking down more on people who hire illegals.

The reason they come here is not just money. It's because Mexico SUCKS. The Mexican government is one of the most corrupt in the world and in general Mexico is just a violent place. Anybody with a brain would rather be here than in Mexico.

Bonnie
02-11-2009, 05:57 PM
Kinda reminds me of the injustice given to the border patrol agents, Jose Compean and Ignacio Ramos.

For those who don't know, about the story, Compean was patrolling a section of border with another agent (Ignacio Ramos) when they spotted a man crossing the border. They stopped him in a van containing 743 pounds of marijuana, but he ran. Compean said he thought the suspect had a gun and was going to shoot him so he fired at him first. His shot missed but his partner, hearing gunfire, fired in order to defend Compean and hit the suspect in the buttocks. They lost sight of the man but said they saw him on the Mexican side of the border. They did not believe he had been injured so they did not report the incident.

The two officers were arrested after the drug smuggler, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, filed a complaint against them. After a two-week jury trial, Compean was found guilty on 11 counts, including discharging a firearm during the commission of a violent crime, which by itself carries a federally mandated 10-year minimum sentence. Without that charge, both agents involved would have received far shorter sentences. Instead, Compean was sentenced to 12 years in prison, and his partner, Ignacio Ramos, was sentenced to 11 years in prison. Aldrete Davila was granted immunity to testify against the two agents and received six border crossing visas to come to the United States and testify (you can be sure he did some drug deals with those Visas).

Anyways, these officers were finally commuted by Bush on January 19, 2009 after serving nearly 4 years in prison for defending our nation's borders from drug smugglers.

F'ing bs, I hope this guy gets his justice from those border jumpers!

That's right, "commuted", so that they will be forever labeled "felons". Makes me sick! They give that SOB a pass to cross back and forth over the border and crucify the two men who were doing their jobs. And from what I heard on the news recently, that piece of **** illegal drug runner was caught again running drugs. Why doesn't our government just stop "pretending" it's doing anything to protect our borders from illegals/criminals. Don't even have any border patrol agents. Who would want to be one anyway after what happened to Compean and Ramos.

That rancher will be lucky if he doesn't end up in jail and his ranch turned over to the illegal bastards suing him. :angry:

rockdawg21
02-11-2009, 06:04 PM
She's laying on the floor and he allegedly kicked her. I don't see a woman doing much damage to you while laying on the floor.

If a woman was punching me I would subdue and hold her in place until she settled. I've never met a woman that could seriously hurt me by hitting me and I've met some tough chicks.

Punching or kicking a woman is wrong ESPECIALLY if on the ground. He can do whatever he wants they trespassed on his land and he should be in his rights to do what he wishes. I personally feel kicking a woman while she is down is wrong.

I commend him for his efforts but if I ever met the man and he bragged about kicking a downed woman I'd have to call him out and give him a little justice of my own.
Well, I didn't know anything about him kicking her on the ground. Your point was you should never punch a woman under any circumstances. I just presented you with a circumstance to see what you'd say. I say KO her if she wants to enter a man's world. Of course, I was a wrestler so I'd probably just do the same as you, take her down and subdue her in hopes she would calm down.

County Mike
02-11-2009, 06:06 PM
OK, maybe I can understand them wanting to cross into America.

However, they have no excuse for vandalizing, stealing or killing livestock. The guy even put a spigot on his water tower so they could get water WITHOUT damaging the tank. Sounds to me like this guy has done everything he can and his patience has worn out.

If you don't want the property owner to hold you at gunpoint and give you a kick or three, then cross his land peacefully without damaging/stealing anything. I still say he should go free. If it was my land, I might have eventually become violent against the trespassers as well.

County Mike
02-11-2009, 06:08 PM
Well, I didn't know anything about him kicking her on the ground. Your point was you should never punch a woman under any circumstances. I just presented you with a circumstance to see what you'd say. I say KO her if she wants to enter a man's world. Of course, I was a wrestler so I'd probably just do the same as you, take her down and subdue her in hopes she would calm down.

Easier said than done. He had to maintain his position of holding the others at gunpoint. The only way to subdue an unruly person without taking focus off the others is a good kick. She should be thankful he didn't just shoot her. Again, if they don't want to get kicked/held, cross peacefully or choose a different route.

NateR
02-11-2009, 06:10 PM
That's right, "commuted", so that they will be forever labeled "felons". Makes me sick! They give that SOB a pass to cross back and forth over the border and crucify the two men who were doing their jobs. And from what I heard on the news recently, that piece of **** illegal drug runner was caught again running drugs. Why doesn't our government just stop "pretending" it's doing anything to protect our borders from illegals/criminals. Don't even have any border patrol agents. Who would want to be one anyway after what happened to Compean and Ramos.

That rancher will be lucky if he doesn't end up in jail and his ranch turned over to the illegal bastards suing him. :angry:

I agree 100%. I didn't really know the details of the Border Patrol agents' case, but that sounds like total garbage that they were actually found guilty. I would guess the only mistake they really made was not reporting the incident; but that's nothing that should get them ten years in prison.

This whole situation with illegal immigrants was one of the main reasons that I wanted to get away from the Mexican border. I'm not claiming that illegal immigrants are subhuman, they still deserve basic human rights and dignity. HOWEVER, stuff like welfare, unemployment benefits, driver's licenses, public schools, health care, etc. are NOT basic human rights. They are privileges of American citizenship and paid for by American taxpayers. No person should be allowed to enter this country illegally and take advantage of any of these programs without paying the taxes that fund them. Period. End of discussion.

Finally, this case should not be tried in an American court. These people should be deported and, if they have a complaint, they can use their own justice system.

rockdawg21
02-11-2009, 06:12 PM
I'd have to be honest though. If I were in the same situation as those in Mexico, I'd jump the border too. There's just way too many opportunities here for illegals in the U.S. They know it, and it's easy to take advantage of the situation since our hippie government thinks illegals should have more rights than its' own citizens.

Anybody here ever been to a third-world country, inside their homes? Most families struggle just to get 1 meal a day. It's easy for us to talk like they should stay there. However, they shouldn't be littering, killing cattle, etc. when they cross.

NateR
02-11-2009, 06:20 PM
I'd have to be honest though. If I were in the same situation as those in Mexico, I'd jump the border too. There's just way too many opportunities here for illegals in the U.S. They know it, and it's easy to take advantage of the situation since our hippie government thinks illegals should have more rights than its' own citizens.

Anybody here ever been to a third-world country, inside their homes? Most families struggle just to get 1 meal a day. It's easy for us to talk like they should stay there. However, they shouldn't be littering, killing cattle, etc. when they cross.

I've been to Mexico and seen the living conditions and the last thing I want is for that to happen to America. If we don't protect our borders, they're in great danger of dragging us down to that same level.

We can help them from here, but until they can get a less corrupt government, there's very little we can really do without hurting our own nation's welfare in the process.

rockdawg21
02-11-2009, 06:37 PM
I've been to Mexico and seen the living conditions and the last thing I want is for that to happen to America. If we don't protect our borders, they're in great danger of dragging us down to that same level.

We can help them from here, but until they can get a less corrupt government, there's very little we can really do without hurting our own nation's welfare in the process.
I agree, I'm just saying if I lived like that and knew I could make a better life for myself and my family by sneaking across a pitifully guarded border, I'd do it too.

Bonnie
02-11-2009, 06:42 PM
Easier said than done. He had to maintain his position of holding the others at gunpoint. The only way to subdue an unruly person without taking focus off the others is a good kick. She should be thankful he didn't just shoot her. Again, if they don't want to get kicked/held, cross peacefully or choose a different route.

Exactly, Mike, just what I was thinking. We don't know that she wasn't trying to distract the rancher so the men could overpower him. People, with all due respect, stop being so NAIVE!

I UNDERSTAND why they want to come here, and yes, the Americans over here who are contributing to this problem because they want cheap labor and are enticing them with jobs, etc... We can sympathize with their plight in their country, but, like OUR forefathers fought for their new homeland against England, the Mexican people need to fight their corrupt and unjust government and the drug criminals running the whole show. I don't blame these poor people for wanting a better life, but that doesn't mean I'm not angered that they are over here illegally, benefiting from our resources and basically being accommodated from our classrooms with bi-lingual teachers to our medical offices and so on all while not being a legal citizen. And now our own government is sending American citizens to prison and handing out border passes to known illegal drug criminals and allowing illegals to sue an American citizen who simply wants them to stay off HIS land. AMAZING!

rockdawg21
02-11-2009, 06:45 PM
Easier said than done. He had to maintain his position of holding the others at gunpoint. The only way to subdue an unruly person without taking focus off the others is a good kick. She should be thankful he didn't just shoot her. Again, if they don't want to get kicked/held, cross peacefully or choose a different route.
Ok, I went back and re-read it. Yeah, giving the situation, I'd say a kick was probably fair. Besides, if you don't speak Spanish, you'd definitely be wondering what they're talking about!

NateR
02-11-2009, 06:55 PM
Ok, I went back and re-read it. Yeah, giving the situation, I'd say a kick was probably fair. Besides, if you don't speak Spanish, you'd definitely be wondering what they're talking about!

I'd say that between the choice of a kick or a bullet, she's lucky she got what she did. :laugh:

J.B.
02-11-2009, 07:14 PM
Kicking a woman while she is down is just pathetic, period.

Being a landowner in that area comes with many downfalls. Illegals crossing over is just ONE of those problems. I can understand his plight, and how tough it can be to deal with, but I still do not condone him kicking a woman while she is down. Furthermore, as I have said numerous times, he should NOT be out there trying to police these people BY HIMSELF.

What would he do if came up on a group of smugglers packing AK-47's? Because that is VERY common in that area. There is a war going on between the cartel families in Mexico right now and the fighting has made it's way to our side of the border a lot in the last 5 years. Not long ago I remember reading about Mexican officials finding 5 severed heads in the middle of the road in a border town, I think it was Nogales if I am not mistaken. These are not people to trifle with, especially if you are an old man all by yourself.

My point is, this guy has every right to protect his family, his home, and his land. However being a vigilante cowboy and trying to round up groups of people all by himself is a recipe for disaster. Not only are his emotions probably way too high to handle the situation fairly, but he leaves himself open to these kind of accusations with the current political environment we live in.

The only reason we are even hearing about this is because the immigration issue is such a hot button topic that there are tons of lawyers looking to make a name for themselves by representing these Illegal Aliens pro-bono.

County Mike
02-11-2009, 07:33 PM
I wish I could get put on the jury.

I'm guessing he's trying to police the border himself because the authorities aren't doing much about it. It sounds like he has no other choice. Either he lets them trash his property or he goes out there and does something about it.

http://l.yimg.com/img.movies.yahoo.com/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/gran_torino/grantorino_bigposter.jpg
Stay off his lawn.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 07:49 PM
I wish I could get put on the jury.

I'm guessing he's trying to police the border himself because the authorities aren't doing much about it. It sounds like he has no other choice. Either he lets them trash his property or he goes out there and does something about it.

http://l.yimg.com/img.movies.yahoo.com/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/gran_torino/grantorino_bigposter.jpg
Stay off his lawn.

As great of a movie as Gran Torino is, I still wouldnt recommend Dirty Harry go out running through the desert waiting for punks to make his day.

I also would not assume that the authorities are not doing much about it, because they are doing all that they can. The BP is way understaffed considering the magnitude of the problem and the density of the region.

Like I said, I understand his plight, and it sucks. BUT, it's not like he is the ONLY land owner who has these problems, and he is not the first one to detain a group of illegals either. Many people deal with this all the time and they don't take the same action.

Lets keep in mind, I am not even saying that he DID or IS any of the things we have read in the reports. He could have been completely justified in what he did, we really don't know at this time.

Bonnie
02-11-2009, 07:51 PM
What is happening to that rancher is pathetic!

What happened to those two border patrol agents was beyond pathetic!

What is happening to our country is dishearteningly PATHETIC!

NateR
02-11-2009, 07:52 PM
Kicking a woman while she is down is just pathetic, period.

Well, he's an American citizen so he's innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, unless these illegals can prove that it happened, then it's a lie. They're already breaking several laws just by being on his property, thus they have no credibility. So taking them on their word is just naive.

However, even if true, while it might be distasteful and dishonorable, it hardly makes this man a criminal. Compared to what these people are doing to his property, it's irrelevant and really just distracts from the greater crime being committed here.

rockdawg21
02-11-2009, 08:01 PM
Well, he's an American citizen so he's innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, unless these illegals can prove that it happened, then it's a lie. They're already breaking several laws just by being on his property, thus they have no credibility. So taking them on their word is just naive.

However, even if true, while it might be distasteful and dishonorable, it hardly makes this man a criminal. Compared to what these people are doing to his property, it's irrelevant and really just distracts from the greater crime being committed here.
:sign0011:

Spiritwalker
02-11-2009, 08:03 PM
I don't think it matters if he is protecting his land ... if they can show that he was not in physical danger and he still harmed these people, then he could be found guilty ... so if someone breaks into my house and i disarm them and are holding them hostage .. while the police are on the way, i decide to start laying a beating on them, well i think i can be charged with assault


Agreed, but dead men tell no lies...

Someone were to break into my home.. it's over for them. I don't care if I shoot through my TV that he and his buddy are carrying out the door.

Spiritwalker
02-11-2009, 08:05 PM
Well, he's an American citizen so he's innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, unless these illegals can prove that it happened, then it's a lie. They're already breaking several laws just by being on his property, thus they have no credibility. So taking them on their word is just naive.

However, even if true, while it might be distasteful and dishonorable, it hardly makes this man a criminal. Compared to what these people are doing to his property, it's irrelevant and really just distracts from the greater crime being committed here.



see.. see... SEE!!!!!!!

That's why I want to have Nate's love child!!!!!!!!!!:frantics:

Nate for Obama Replacement!!!

Moose
02-11-2009, 08:22 PM
Well, he's an American citizen so he's innocent until proven guilty.

In criminal law. In civil law, there's a preponderance of evidence.

NateR
02-11-2009, 08:28 PM
see.. see... SEE!!!!!!!

That's why I want to have Nate's love child!!!!!!!!!!:frantics:

Nate for Obama Replacement!!!

:unsure-1:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I actually wouldn't want Obama's job. I would prefer that it go to someone like Mike Huckabee or even Ron Paul. Heck, I even think Rush Limbaugh would make a better President than Obama, at least then we'd see the answer to the question "Is it humanly possible for Liberals to hate anyone more than George W. Bush?" :laugh:

NateR
02-11-2009, 08:30 PM
In criminal law. In civil law, there's a preponderance of evidence.

Assault and battery is not a criminal offense?

Moose
02-11-2009, 08:46 PM
Assault and battery is not a criminal offense?

No, it is. But we're talking damages and torts here, the worst thing that could happen in getting sued is losing money. That's why it's a civil case and not a criminal, no matter what, the man won't be serving jail time.

Criminal Justice:

A&B>arrested by the police>hearing>trial>jail

Civil Justice (and what happened in this case):

A&B> man not arrested>no trial>plaintiff files charges>trial>monetary damages paid

Does that make sense?

NateR
02-11-2009, 08:52 PM
No, it is. But we're talking damages and torts here, the worst thing that could happen in getting sued is losing money. That's why it's a civil case and not a criminal, no matter what, the man won't be serving jail time.

Criminal Justice:

A&B>arrested by the police>hearing>trial>jail

Civil Justice (and what happened in this case):

A&B> man not arrested>no trial>plaintiff files charges>trial>monetary damages paid

Does that make sense?

Yes, thanks. The only time I've ever really researched assault and battery charges was when I was in the military, which of course treats stuff like this a little differently than the civilian world.

That actually just highlights even further my point that the kicking charge is just an unnecessary distraction from the greater crime being committed.

Moose
02-11-2009, 08:58 PM
That actually just highlights even further my point that the kicking charge is just an unnecessary distraction from the greater crime being committed.
I'd agree. The man could/should sue the government for not protecting his land from foreign invaders.

Oh, and it's a lot easier to be found negligent and "guilty" in a civil case.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 09:48 PM
Well, he's an American citizen so he's innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, unless these illegals can prove that it happened, then it's a lie. They're already breaking several laws just by being on his property, thus they have no credibility. So taking them on their word is just naive.

However, even if true, while it might be distasteful and dishonorable, it hardly makes this man a criminal. Compared to what these people are doing to his property, it's irrelevant and really just distracts from the greater crime being committed here.

Listen to yourself...

You are going off on a soapbox because I said it's wrong to kick a woman just because this guy is an American citizen and these people are not. Then, you are suggesting I am naive for believing it could be true. WTF?

First of all, I am NOT taking ANYBODYS word. Read through my statements, I have said more than once that we DO NOT KNOW what happened. That also means YOU don't know that this group of Illegals did ANYTHING to his property. Just because OTHER groups of Illegals have messed up his property, does not mean THIS group did.

Bottom line, it IS wrong to kick a woman while she is on the ground. If you wanna make an argument to defend that action, go right ahead, but I disagree and so do most men. You seem to be giving this guy the benefit of the doubt just because he is an American Citizen. I am simply saying lets look at all facts before we make a judgment.

Oh, and LOL at Moose calling these people "foreign invaders". I am a pretty conservative guy, and I agree with people protecting their land, home, and family, but I just don't subscribe to this idea that it's okay to treat people looking for a better life as less than human. The idea that kicking a woman while she is on the ground is LESS of a crime than basically cutting through somebody's yard is just plain nonsense. Oh, and DONT SAY they were doing more than cutting through his property, because you don't know that right now.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 09:52 PM
That's why I want to have Nate's love child!!!!!!!!!!:frantics:


Wow...it all makes sense now. :wink:

NateR
02-11-2009, 10:24 PM
You seem to be giving this guy the benefit of the doubt just because he is an American Citizen.

Exactly, and that's wrong because.... ?

J.B.
02-11-2009, 10:32 PM
Exactly, and that's wrong because.... ?

Because American citizens commit crimes, lie, cheat, and steal just like all people do. You know that.

Really Nate...In over 2 years of being one of the more outspoken members of this forum I can count on one hand the amount of times I have disagreed with you. This happens to be one of them.

I have only said we should reserve judgment until all the facts come out. I know you are intelligent, and you fully understand the point I have been trying to make, so I am not going to keep beating a dead horse (or keep kicking an illegal, whichever you prefer). Just know that I respect you and your view on this, but I disagree with some of the things you have said.

Bonnie
02-11-2009, 10:50 PM
JB, you keep saying to let's wait and see what the "facts" are but it seems like you and a couple others have already made up your minds that he kicked a woman. I think all Nathan is saying is that the real crime here is they are crossing the border illegally onto this man's property. You seem to be making light of it by calling it "oh, they were just cutting across his yard". Apparently, a lot of them have been "cutting across his yard" for a long time. :wink:

NateR
02-11-2009, 10:54 PM
Because American citizens commit crimes, lie, cheat, and steal just like all people do. You know that.

Really Nate...In over 2 years of being one of the more outspoken members of this forum I can count on one hand the amount of times I have disagreed with you. This happens to be one of them.

I have only said we should reserve judgment until all the facts come out. I know you are intelligent, and you fully understand the point I have been trying to make, so I am not going to keep beating a dead horse (or keep kicking an illegal, whichever you prefer). Just know that I respect you and your view on this, but I disagree with some of the things you have said.

Given what's been said, if all the charges are true on both sides, then I still don't believe the Arizona land owner did anything wrong.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 11:00 PM
JB, you keep saying to let's wait and see what the "facts" are but it seems like you and a couple others have already made up your minds that he kicked a woman. I think all Nathan is saying is that the real crime here is they are crossing the border illegally onto this man's property. You seem to be making light of it by calling it "oh, they were just cutting across his yard". Apparently, a lot of them have been "cutting across his yard" for a long time. :wink:

No.

If you read what I have said throughout the thread you will see that I have said numerous times that I do NOT know what happened. The point I am making is that kicking a woman is NOT cool, period.

I am making light of nothing, but you should understand that essentially all we know about the situation is that there were people on his property. Of course crossing the border illegally is a big problem, but lets be realistic, this is happening ALL THE TIME.

Most of the Illegals in this country are here because of overstayed visas that our country gave out. It's OUR countrys fault for not securing the border properly, nobody can argue that.

Anybody on this forum who has heard me speak my views on immigration knows that I am not condoning illegal immigration. I am merely saying that we should have ALL the facts before nominating this guy as citizen of the year.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 11:04 PM
Given what's been said, if all the charges are true on both sides, then I still don't believe the Arizona land owner did anything wrong.

With all due respect, you are basing that on the report in the beginning of this thread. This same story has been on all the major news networks, and I have heard other reports of the situation.

If this guy is some raging racist out looking for vigilante justice then I won't shed a tear for him if he gets prosecuted, or more realistically shot in the head by a group of drug smugglers while trying to be a modern day Wyatt Earp. Fair enough?

That being said, I repeat WE DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS.

Bonnie
02-11-2009, 11:13 PM
I'm a woman JB so I couldn't agree with you more: it's not cool to kick a woman, hit a woman or abuse a woman. But, like, Nate and Mike have alluded to their are times when it's necessary to take certain actions against a person, even a woman.

I agree with you we don't know what happened there, if she was kicked and if so, why. You said it, it's dangerous along the border states and that rancher as well as others owning property along the border know it, hence, their guns.

I don't know what it's going to take for our government to finally take serious action regarding our borders, but until they do, incidents like this one are bound to continue to happen.

J.B.
02-11-2009, 11:20 PM
I don't know what it's going to take for our government to finally take serious action regarding our borders, but until they do, incidents like this one are bound to continue to happen.


I couldn't agree more, and that may be the biggest tragedy of this entire situation.

Spiritwalker
02-11-2009, 11:26 PM
With all due respect, you are basing that on the report in the beginning of this thread. This same story has been on all the major news networks, and I have heard other reports of the situation.

If this guy is some raging racist out looking for vigilante justice then I won't shed a tear for him if he gets prosecuted, or more realistically shot in the head by a group of drug smugglers while trying to be a modern day Wyatt Earp. Fair enough?

That being said, I repeat WE DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS.

ok, we don't know the facts..

but for discussions sake..

What if the guy IS a raging racist... hwat if he has a KKK/swastika/picture of Martin Luther King dead on his front door/the US flag hanging up side dow.. and a rebel flag above..

He is out on his own property.. finds people there that shouldn't be there, in the same area that people have done damage to his property.. he just happens to have his gun and dogs and a tank with him..

he yells and threatens and does all around "mean" things.. those things keep the people there until the police arrive....

Is that wrong?

in a word..

"No F'ing way~!!"


hell being illegals, they are lucky he didn't kill them.. no one knew where they were.. so maybe those people should be thanking him for not blowing their heads off.....

(which BTW.. would have been a tad excessive)

Shouldn't be in the country.. held against their will until the cops show.. Give the guy a freaking medal!

And when they get back to Mexico.. they will tell their friends..

"Don't go near that gringos hasenda!! He is muyo loco in the cabasa!!"

J.B.
02-11-2009, 11:49 PM
ok, we don't know the facts..

but for discussions sake..

What if the guy IS a raging racist... hwat if he has a KKK/swastika/picture of Martin Luther King dead on his front door/the US flag hanging up side dow.. and a rebel flag above..

He is out on his own property.. finds people there that shouldn't be there, in the same area that people have done damage to his property.. he just happens to have his gun and dogs and a tank with him..

he yells and threatens and does all around "mean" things.. those things keep the people there until the police arrive....

Is that wrong?

in a word..

"No F'ing way~!!"


hell being illegals, they are lucky he didn't kill them.. no one knew where they were.. so maybe those people should be thanking him for not blowing their heads off.....

(which BTW.. would have been a tad excessive)

Shouldn't be in the country.. held against their will until the cops show.. Give the guy a freaking medal!

And when they get back to Mexico.. they will tell their friends..

"Don't go near that gringos hasenda!! He is muyo loco in the cabasa!!"

If you had bothered to read any of my previous responses, you would see that I have said I that being a racist is not illegal, and he has every right to protect his family, land , and property.

You, like others in this thread, have just jumped on the "it don't matter because they are illegal" bandwagon. Seriously, "thanking him for not blowing their heads off"? You can't be serious?

I also think many of you people are forgetting that when you own multiple acres of land, in this case probably hundreds of acres (though I am not sure), it's not like all the people crossing onto his land are FOR SURE coming anywhere near his home. So, in all likely-hood, this guy is out policing his land watching for them. Which again, is NOT illegal, but I do think it is VERY VERY STUPID. When I lived in the desert, I learned to shake my shoes out for scorpions and spiders in the first week. This guy has been around the border for a long time, I just think he would have found a better way to quell the number of illegals using his land by now, because the reports I have heard is that this is not the first time he has been in hot water over this stuff.

Lots of other people live in that region and experience the same problems without ever having to take action themselves, or let alone threaten Mexicans with a dog and kick a woman while she is down. Now, as I have said over and over, we DO NOT KNOW ALL THE FACTS YET, so I reserve my final judgment until then.

PS- Now I see that you said blowing their heads off would be excessive, but why did you hide it in white text? You and moose...with the white friggin text...WTF?

Hughes_GOAT
02-11-2009, 11:56 PM
he'll lose. there are many cases like this involving illegals and some sort of "rights" violation(s).

is it wrong to think we should take every illegal that is caught, behead them, put their stump on 6 foot wooden stake and line them up all along the places where illegals cross?

timmyja
02-12-2009, 12:22 AM
[QUOTE=KENTUCKYREDBONE]Monday, February 9, 2009

Attorneys for the immigrants - five women and 11 men who were trying to cross illegally into the United States - have accused Mr. Barnett of holding the group captive at gunpoint, threatening to turn his dog loose on them and saying he would shoot anyone who tried to escape.

What are the odds that any of them could speak a lick of English? How would they know if he was threatening them or not? Not trying to be rude, or offensive, but the only time I've ever seen a mexican turn into a scholar of the English language is when they think they are being shorted on money :unsure-1:

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 12:29 AM
If you had bothered to read any of my previous responses, you would see that I have said I that being a racist is not illegal, and he has every right to protect his family, land , and property.

You, like others in this thread, have just jumped on the "it don't matter because they are illegal" bandwagon. Seriously, "thanking him for not blowing their heads off"? You can't be serious?


I am VERY serious. It doesn't matter if they are legal or not..

If this guy has had the same crap happen to him over and over again.. and the authorities can't/won't help.. he has to help himself.. and that he was so restrained.. speaks volumes to me.

Did he kick some woman?? Probably.. was it more like.. a shove in the buttocks?? more likely.. where they where they shouldn't be? Yep.. where they speaking nothing but kind words to the guy that was hold them?? Probably not..

WE DON'T KNOW THE FACTS.. everyone is screaming... well guess what facts we do know...

in the country illegally
no cops around..
a private citizen holds them until the cops get there..
illegals are claiming the citizen violated his civil rights

one of those "facts" truly isn't surprising


I also think many of you people are forgetting that when you own multiple acres of land, in this case probably hundreds of acres (though I am not sure), it's not like all the people crossing onto his land are FOR SURE coming anywhere near his home. So, in all likely-hood, this guy is out policing his land watching for them.

trespassing is trespassing..

Which again, is NOT illegal, but I do think it is VERY VERY STUPID.

Funny you should put it that way... See my upcoming post.. The Mouse Trap.


I don't think it's stupid at all.. but very commendable. Maybe the Boarder Patrol should deputize citizens living on/around the boarder... if they are qualified..of course...

When I lived in the desert, I learned to shake my shoes out for scorpions and spiders in the first week. This guy has been around the border for a long time, I just think he would have found a better way to quell the number of illegals using his land by now, because the reports I have heard is that this is not the first time he has been in hot water over this stuff.

well shoot... (no don't say that)... maybe dis dumb ol redneck just ain't got no better sense that to come up with a better plan...

And again.. what you call "hot water".. I call "Good Freaking Job!!"

Lots of other people live in that region and experience the same problems without ever having to take action themselves

But if they did.. maybe some will think twice...


or let alone threaten Mexicans with a dog and kick a woman while she is down. Now, as I have said over and over, we DO NOT KNOW ALL THE FACTS YET, so I reserve my final judgment until then.


well.. you know.. one man.. against two or three of dem dare spics... he has to be as threatening as possible. You know if it where whites or blacks.. he would be serving them coffee and doughnuts.

It's just like the cops do.. they threaten to release the dogs.. they "man handle" I hope that took pictures of the wounds.. that way if he was abusing them.. they have proof..


PS - Sure seems that you have made some judgments..


PS- Now I see that you said blowing their heads off would be excessive, but why did you hide it in white text? You and moose...with the white friggin text...WTF?

If I told you.. I would have to treat you like an illegal squatting on my front yard.

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 12:31 AM
[QUOTE=KENTUCKYREDBONE]Monday, February 9, 2009

Attorneys for the immigrants - five women and 11 men who were trying to cross illegally into the United States - have accused Mr. Barnett of holding the group captive at gunpoint, threatening to turn his dog loose on them and saying he would shoot anyone who tried to escape.

What are the odds that any of them could speak a lick of English? How would they know if he was threatening them or not? Not trying to be rude, or offensive, but the only time I've ever seen a mexican turn into a scholar of the English language is when they think they are being shorted on money :unsure-1:


Mr. Barnett is fluent in English and Unamercian apparently

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 12:33 AM
he'll lose. there are many cases like this involving illegals and some sort of "rights" violation(s).

is it wrong to think we should take every illegal that is caught, behead them, put their stump on 6 foot wooden stake and line them up all along the places where illegals cross?


Not wrong to think it.. IMO.. but wrong to do it...

It would be an EXCELLENT deterrent though.

J.B.
02-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Spirit, I am sorry, but you are just way too off the meter to even merit a point by point response.

Just like in the debate about other pro-sports versus MMA, you refuse to acknowledge points that I have made and go off the meter with ridiculous comments that make little sense. Half the crap you said I already addressed in previous posts in this thread. If you had bothered to read what I have already said, you would know that.

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 01:29 AM
Given what's been said, if all the charges are true on both sides, then I still don't believe the Arizona land owner did anything wrong.


!WOOT!

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 01:51 AM
Spirit, I am sorry, but you are just way too off the meter to even merit a point by point response.

Just like in the debate about other pro-sports versus MMA, you refuse to acknowledge points that I have made and go off the meter with ridiculous comments that make little sense. Half the crap you said I already addressed in previous posts in this thread. If you had bothered to read what I have already said, you would know that.


Maybe you should consider that your posts on various subjects get responses in kind?

All you have said is "we don't know the facts.. he shouldn't mistreat anyone.. is he qualified.. maybe he is ragin.. "

In fact.. let's take a look at what you have said..

He should have just called the border patrol and let them handle it. I know the BP is understaffed, and I have been all over those dense southern regions of Arizona, and it's a tough area to monitor. BUT..he is actually pretty stupid to be out there trying to detain these people all by himself considering how many VERY dangerous people are crossing over all the time. and you said The truth is, this guy should not be out there policing the area by himself to begin with. I know it's his land, but that is just DUMB, he's lucky he ain't dead by now.

Should have called BP.. well it's a big boarder.. and there is no reason that he should have to sit in his freaking home and let people get into the country illegally.

He is stupid to be doing this??? Seems to be doing a good job.. And sometimes SOMEONE needs to take a stand.. why not him?? See Thread The Mousetrap

You also said..UT in this case we simply do not know all the facts so making a judgment one way or another is just silly. If this guy was assaulting people who cooperated, he should be charged with assault, but these accusations of "civil rights violations" are ridiculous.

so we are silly for making judgments...?? and just what are you doing?

Just because these people are ILLEGAL does not make them less than human.

No one has said otherwise.. yer talking out your ass to hear yourself speak..

It's not right to assault them and torment them just because they are trespassing. Also, from a safety standpoint, it's just dumb of the guy to be out there by himself, not to mention he leaves himself open to these kind of accusations with it basically being his word against theirs.

Repeat yourself often?

My biggest problem with this guy is all the reports of how long he has been doing this, and how many people have accused him in the past.

yeah.. funny that.. he has been doing this for HOW long now.. ? and the BP still don't patrol his area .. go figure that he is still doing it... He makes me proud to be an American.. you make me understand liberals more and more with every post..

I just said that he should not be beating and tormenting them. That is bigger than the US Constitution, that is the inherit value of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

An accusation of them being beaten.. doesn't make it fact.. and at the same time.. your argument is similar to prosecuting a jay walker after he is struck by a drunk driver..

but I still do not condone him kicking a woman while she is down. Furthermore, as I have said numerous times, he should NOT be out there trying to police these people BY HIMSELF.

It's an accusation.. at best at this time.. and if I were caught and had a chanve to make some $$ cause the US legal system is screwed and this guy seems to have some $$..

As for a 3-peat about doing this by himself.. I don't see you stepping up and trying to get the job... So lay off the guy doing what other people don't want to do.. and still needs to be done.

However being a vigilante cowboy and trying to round up groups of people all by himself is a recipe for disaster. Not only are his emotions probably way too high to handle the situation fairly, but he leaves himself open to these kind of accusations with the current political environment we live in.

Seeing as how he didn't kill them.. just held them.. I would disagree

we really don't know at this time.

But we DO know that he shouldn't be doing it? There is a word for people like you.. several actually

You seem to be giving this guy the benefit of the doubt just because he is an American Citizen.

Sure seems to have earned it.. Man that is one of the worst things you could have actually said.. I am very dismayed..

I am a pretty conservative guy


??????? LOL

The idea that kicking a woman while she is on the ground is LESS of a crime than basically cutting through somebody's yard is just plain nonsense. Oh, and DONT SAY they were doing more than cutting through his property, because you don't know that right now.

You assume that this illegal was kicked.. but not that they were damaging his property.. You sir.. are a mess.

Most of the Illegals in this country are here because of overstayed visas that our country gave out. It's OUR countrys fault for not securing the border properly, nobody can argue that.

so NOW.. it's OUR fault.. ???Dude.. have been to other countries.. I have worked in other countries.. I knew when my visas expired.. it's also OUR fault for not securing our boarders??? I hope you get the Liberal Operational System Expert Retention post you so deserve.. other wise known as....

Anybody on this forum who has heard me speak my views on immigration knows that I am not condoning illegal immigration. I am merely saying that we should have ALL the facts before nominating this guy as citizen of the year.

4-peat.. yet you assume this guy is some vigilante.


With all due respect, you are basing that on the report in the beginning of this thread. This same story has been on all the major news networks, and I have heard other reports of the situation.

ohh.. sooo now YOU have the "insdier knowledge"..


If this guy is some raging racist out looking for vigilante justice then I won't shed a tear for him if he gets prosecuted, or more realistically shot in the head by a group of drug smugglers while trying to be a modern day Wyatt Earp. Fair enough?

So now you are on record as saying you won't shed a tear..for a guy being shot by while stopping trespassers on his land while being in the country illeaglly.

That being said, I repeat WE DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS.

but you judge.. yet again.. 5- peat..

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 01:55 AM
So about reading your posts....

-Be careful what you ask for...

Josh
02-12-2009, 04:31 AM
Wow this thread has exploded since I read it last. I agree with Crisco that there are almost no circumstances when it would be OK to hit a woman. A person that would do that has no respect for themselves or anyone else. If a woman is hitting you can't you just leave? As for the borders I agree we should do all that we can but I think the battle is already lost. In a time when many of us would prefer John McCain to the guy who became president we are in a pretty bad state of affairs. I respect the few politicians like Tom Tancredo and Sam Brownback who were strong on borders before it was trendy to be so. I don't see anyone like that ever becoming president though. The other day I was behind a guy who had the American flag upside down on his car and a bunch of Native Pride stickers and I couldn't help but think that he will probably never be asked about it. That is just the time we live in.

J.B.
02-12-2009, 04:56 AM
Spirit, I have no interest in discussing anything with you. You don't have the ability to look at the bigger points people make and rationally respond to them. You pick apart every post line by line in order to make it easier to put your own spin on what people are saying. Just because I said we don't know all the facts yet, does not mean I cannot make some of my own observations.You LOL at the thought that I may actually be conservative, but anybody who has read a damn thing I have posted around here in the last two years knows where I stand politically.

Obviously you are incapable of having an open discussion without getting nasty and trying to attack me, just like in the sports section. So :censored: you.

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 11:18 AM
Spirit, I have no interest in discussing anything with you. You don't have the ability to look at the bigger points people make and rationally respond to them. You pick apart every post line by line in order to make it easier to put your own spin on what people are saying. Just because I said we don't know all the facts yet, does not mean I cannot make some of my own observations.You LOL at the thought that I may actually be conservative, but anybody who has read a damn thing I have posted around here in the last two years knows where I stand politically.

I "pick apart your posts" so I do miss anything. You have a lot to say, and given that you and I disagree on a topic, I would like to ensure that all of the specifics are hit on. And you may claim to be a conservative, but it sure doesn't come across that way. Actually claiming that it's the US's fault for not securing our boarders (huh), but then find fault in a guy that is doing what amounts to a citizens arrest.. makes no sense.. then you bring up expired visas (where did that come from) and try to say iti's Amercias fault that they are still here.


Obviously you are incapable of having an open discussion without getting nasty and trying to attack me, just like in the sports section. So :censored: you.


If you feel that I am obviously incapable of having an open discussion, maybe YOU haven't been reading MY posts.. I haven't attacked you, just your stance. You claim many times that we don't know facts, yet turn around and make judgements on the facts that are known. Seems weird to me..

I have plenty of discussions that are open and friendly, and others that take pokes at others.. but in this thread

County Mike
02-12-2009, 12:34 PM
I'm still on the landowners side. Don't know why he kicked the woman, or if he even did, but he has a right to protect his property. Throw out the illegals and let this man get back to work.

Bonnie
02-12-2009, 12:45 PM
I'm still on the landowners side. Don't know why he kicked the woman, or if he even did, but he has a right to protect his property. Throw out the illegals and let this man get back to work.

Me too! :)

Deerstabber
02-12-2009, 01:15 PM
For some reason reading this entire thread brought this old patch to mind:

rearnakedchoke
02-12-2009, 01:23 PM
I'm still on the landowners side. Don't know why he kicked the woman, or if he even did, but he has a right to protect his property. Throw out the illegals and let this man get back to work.

I don't think I am on anyways side .. just want to see the right thing done .. if he did the things he said they did, well they should get the money (is $32 million too much?)

but if he did nothing wrong and just held them until the border police got there, well should have it thrown out .. we shall see ..

Neezar
02-12-2009, 01:30 PM
There are 3 to 5 teenage boys who come from the neighborhood behind us and run through my backyard over to our neighborhood (I have a fence, they jump it). I don't know if they have friends over here or are up to no-good. They always seem to be running. Maybe I should corner them with my gun and dog until the police get here to check them out.

Crisco
02-12-2009, 01:35 PM
I don't think I am on anyways side .. just want to see the right thing done .. if he did the things he said they did, well they should get the money (is $32 million too much?)

but if he did nothing wrong and just held them until the border police got there, well should have it thrown out .. we shall see ..

Are you serious that should get the money? **** them!

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 01:52 PM
There are 3 to 5 teenage boys who come from the neighborhood behind us and run through my backyard over to our neighborhood (I have a fence, they jump it). I don't know if they have friends over here or are up to no-good. They always seem to be running. Maybe I should corner them with my gun and dog until the police get here to check them out.


In your fenced in yard.. not a horrible idea, but since there are more cops than boarder patrol, maybe you should call the cops and they can patrol your area a little more often.

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 01:54 PM
Are you serious that should get the money? **** them!


Agreed!

What about the "human rights" of his that were violated.. hell .. he missed Friends reruns to patrol his own land.

rearnakedchoke
02-12-2009, 01:56 PM
Are you serious that should get the money? **** them!

Yup and he should take to heart the American pastime (now Mexican) and file a lawsuit against the people who are hiring these illegals and he should sue for $64 million .. that way he gets a nice profit .. ahhh .. Only in America .. and Mexico .. LOL

Neezar
02-12-2009, 02:18 PM
In your fenced in yard.. not a horrible idea, but since there are more cops than boarder patrol, maybe you should call the cops and they can patrol your area a little more often.

I live in the outskirts of a county and very close to the stateline. It is an hour and a half round trip for the police. Our county went from 12,000 arrests in one year to 25,000 this past year with only a few deputies hired. They don't patrol anywhere anymore because they are literally going from one call to the next, eating in their cars, and stopping only to piss. They could care less about the teenagers running through my yard and I don't blame them when they are busy with more legitimate crimes.

And as far as the 'not a horrible idea', pulling a gun on teenagers is not a horrible idea? :huh: God help your children if Karma ever focuses on you. Oh wait, let me guess. Your children would never cut across someone else's yard. And if they did then they would deserve to be held at gunpoint.

Neezar
02-12-2009, 02:22 PM
OK, maybe I can understand them wanting to cross into America.

However, they have no excuse for vandalizing, stealing or killing livestock. The guy even put a spigot on his water tower so they could get water WITHOUT damaging the tank. Sounds to me like this guy has done everything he can and his patience has worn out.

If you don't want the property owner to hold you at gunpoint and give you a kick or three, then cross his land peacefully without damaging/stealing anything. I still say he should go free. If it was my land, I might have eventually become violent against the trespassers as well.

I totally agree with this! I just wanted to point that out in case someone got the wrong idea where I stand on this with my yard-running teenager issue. :laugh:

I agree with this. However, I will say that taking this before a judge may not be a bad idea because anything can get out of hand and go too far. Maybe this is what it will take to get the American some help with his property issues.

Spiritwalker
02-12-2009, 02:26 PM
And as far as the 'not a horrible idea', pulling a gun on teenagers is not a horrible idea? :huh: God help your children if Karma ever focuses on you. Oh wait, let me guess. Your children would never cut across someone else's yard. And if they did then they would deserve to be held at gunpoint.


No actually they wouldn't. maybe a front yard, heading to a friends house or something like that.

But jumping a fence.. they are asking for troubles.

I live in the outskirts of a county and very close to the stateline. It is an hour and a half round trip for the police. Our county went from 12,000 arrests in one year to 25,000 this past year with only a few deputies hired. They don't patrol anywhere anymore because they are literally going from one call to the next, eating in their cars, and stopping only to piss. They could care less about the teenagers running through my yard and I don't blame them when they are busy with more legitimate crimes.

Agreed, maybe you should just talk to them, to get them to stay out of your yard. Better than staying in your home and not doing anything. If it's a nusiance and your having a problem with it, do something.. sounds like your in the right about it being your area, they shouldn't be there.. If the cops are over worked, vote for more cops, complain to the department.. do something.. sitting back and doing nothing equates to submission.

NateR
02-12-2009, 02:31 PM
God help your children if Karma ever focuses on you.

Fortunately, as Christians, we know that Karma doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

Besides, there's nothing wrong with using a bit of force to teach kids some respect, it's biblical:
2 Kings 2:23-25
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

Neezar
02-12-2009, 02:44 PM
Fortunately, as Christians, we know that Karma doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

Besides, there's nothing wrong with using a bit of force to teach kids some respect, it's biblical:
2 Kings 2:23-25

No, I don't know that. I use the term Karma because most people understand what that means. I think God uses what we term as Karma all the time to teach us lessons. :laugh:

And maybe I will ask the Lord to throw a curse on them but I won't be pulling a gun on them. That isn't the best of neighborhoods back there and I won't risk starting a war over it. They can keep running through my yard as long as they aren't messing with anything. And I will keep hoping that hubby doesn't catch them. :frantics:


p.s. There is a path that they usually take. I thought about taking my dog & letting him poop in that area everyday and leaving it there. :laugh:

Neezar
02-12-2009, 02:46 PM
And someone on here deserves the Doesn't Include Couth & Kindliness into their posts award.

:laugh:

Get it? lol.

NateR
02-12-2009, 02:54 PM
No, I don't know that. I use the term Karma because most people understand what that means. I think God uses what we term as Karma all the time to teach us lessons. :laugh:

Well, Karma is a non-Christian concept based on Eastern religions. It's actually a cleverly disguised form of "works based" salvation that is incompatible with the Biblical concept of salvation. Not to mention that it takes justice out of GOD's hands and puts it into our own.

There are plenty of passages in the Bible about GOD allowing evil men to flourish on the Earth in order to accomplish His will and that contradicts any concept of Karma.

Karma is basically about getting what we deserve based on our actions. However, the Bible is clear that if we were all to get what we really deserve, then GOD would have melted the earth down to a ball of molten lava thousands of years ago.

It's only out of GOD's infinite mercy and grace that we're even allowed to live at all. Our "good works" are still filthy in GOD's eyes.

Neezar
02-12-2009, 02:59 PM
Well, Karma is a non-Christian concept based on Eastern religions. It's actually a cleverly disguised form of "works based" salvation that is incompatible with the Biblical concept of salvation. Not to mention that it takes justice out of GOD's hands and puts it into our own.

There are plenty of passages in the Bible about GOD allowing evil men to flourish on the Earth in order to accomplish His will and that contradicts any concept of Karma.

Karma is basically about getting what we deserve based on our actions. However, the Bible is clear that if we were all to get what we really deserve, then GOD would have melted the earth down to a ball of molten lava thousands of years ago.

It's only out of GOD's infinite mercy and grace that we're even allowed to live at all. Our "good works" are still filthy in GOD's eyes.

So, do you think that God never intervenes in our lives? Good or bad?

rearnakedchoke
02-12-2009, 03:18 PM
Well, Karma is a non-Christian concept based on Eastern religions. It's actually a cleverly disguised form of "works based" salvation that is incompatible with the Biblical concept of salvation. Not to mention that it takes justice out of GOD's hands and puts it into our own.

There are plenty of passages in the Bible about GOD allowing evil men to flourish on the Earth in order to accomplish His will and that contradicts any concept of Karma.

Karma is basically about getting what we deserve based on our actions. However, the Bible is clear that if we were all to get what we really deserve, then GOD would have melted the earth down to a ball of molten lava thousands of years ago.

It's only out of GOD's infinite mercy and grace that we're even allowed to live at all. Our "good works" are still filthy in GOD's eyes.
Well, I can't speak for Neezar, but she is probably referring to the western interpretation of karma and not the literal definition from the eastern religions you talk about .. most people when they refer to karma are talking about getting what you give whether good or bad .. and as i have stated in the past, i am not a biblical expert, but are there not passages in the bible that talk about getting back seven fold what you give (can't remember good or bad) and i think that is what neezar was trying to say when referring to karma (again, not speaking on their behalf) .. sure karma is not the best word ...

NateR
02-12-2009, 03:21 PM
So, do you think that God never intervenes in our lives? Good or bad?

Of course He does, which is why Karma can't exist. The concept of Karma creates a 'tit-for-tat' situation that really doesn't exist in the Bible. It's based on the idea of an impersonal god who doesn't care about justice, but only cares about equilibrium. Karma says that as long as you do good things and be a good person, then the universe will reward you with happiness, peace and prosperity. Ultimately, you'll get only what you deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

GOD tells us that we can't do enough good works to earn His favor and that "good people" simply don't exist. Only GOD is good, and every person on the earth is deserving of death from before the moment of conception. So, it's impossible for GOD to give us what we truly deserve without just killing us all off.

The Bible also tells us that, as a result of being obedient to Him, we can expect to receive hatred, persecution, pain and death from this world. And, until Christ returns, "peace on earth" is only another one of Satan's lies... as is Karma.

Moose
02-12-2009, 04:14 PM
Many Buddhists see kharma as a temporal thing, meaning, it's almost like sleeping in the bed you made, good or bad. I like that.

Neezar
02-12-2009, 04:14 PM
Of course He does, which is why Karma can't exist. The concept of Karma creates a 'tit-for-tat' situation that really doesn't exist in the Bible. It's based on the idea of an impersonal god who doesn't care about justice, but only cares about equilibrium. Karma says that as long as you do good things and be a good person, then the universe will reward you with happiness, peace and prosperity. Ultimately, you'll get only what you deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

*Note: I thought Karma (in this context) was that you do good things here and it determines what kind of things you get in the afterlife (or how you are reincarnated, lol) :huh:

GOD tells us that we can't do enough good works to earn His favor and that "good people" simply don't exist. Only GOD is good, and every person on the earth is deserving of death from before the moment of conception. So, it's impossible for GOD to give us what we truly deserve without just killing us all off.

The Bible also tells us that, as a result of being obedient to Him, we can expect to receive hatred, persecution, pain and death from this world. And, until Christ returns, "peace on earth" is only another one of Satan's lies... as is Karma.

That is not my general perception of what Karma means.

In the sense of Karma = what goes around, comes around; you reap what you sow; things will come back and bite you in the ass :laugh: in that context I believe in karma and that God may have something to do with that at times. I think He does not so pleasant things to us sometimes (or allows it to happen) to teach us a lesson.

J.B.
02-12-2009, 04:18 PM
I "pick apart your posts" so I do miss anything. You have a lot to say, and given that you and I disagree on a topic, I would like to ensure that all of the specifics are hit on. And you may claim to be a conservative, but it sure doesn't come across that way. Actually claiming that it's the US's fault for not securing our boarders (huh), but then find fault in a guy that is doing what amounts to a citizens arrest.. makes no sense.. then you bring up expired visas (where did that come from) and try to say iti's Amercias fault that they are still here.




If you feel that I am obviously incapable of having an open discussion, maybe YOU haven't been reading MY posts.. I haven't attacked you, just your stance. You claim many times that we don't know facts, yet turn around and make judgements on the facts that are known. Seems weird to me..


Sorry Spirit, but when you pick apart my posts line by line you always seem to miss the bigger points I am making, just like in the sports section. You seem to be so focused on just finding a counter argument to anything I say that it makes it next to impossible to rationally discuss anything with you. If I keep responding to each of your posts, I just end up typing the same crap I have already said. You may not intend to act this way, but you come off to me as just looking to argue anything I say. In the Sports section, as soon as I challenged your opinion you started bashing the Cardinals, as if to make it personal. In my opinion, you are just trying to grill me because of the argument we had in the Sports Section.

If you cannot comprehend that a person can speculate on a news report without actually make a final judgment, then I can't help you. If you cannot understand that the problem with illegal immigration is a problem that America helped create, then I can't help you. If you don't think I am a conservative, I really don't care. The reason I said it was because MOST people around this forum that have discussed anything with me know where I stand in my beliefs, on everything from social issues to fiscal responsibility. Not to mention, most liberals don't stick around here very long, only a few have stuck around in the last couple years. You cant go back and read my posts from the old forum, but if you could I think you find that the answer is pretty cut and dry as far as where I stand.

The problem here is not me speculating on what may or may not have happened, it's that too many people around here blindly want to assume that this guy is 100% in the right just because he is an American, and I am getting verbally stoned for even suggesting otherwise. It's seems no matter how many times I repeat myself, somebody wants to spin it into me being a liberal moonbat, but I will say it again. I have NO issue with the man protecting his land, home, and family! I will repeat, I have NO issue with the man protecting his land, home, and family.

All I said was that there were other reports that claimed other circumstances surrounded this case. As for me saying he is stupid to be out there policing his land all by himself, IT IS. Anybody who thinks it safe for him to be out there alone don't know **** about that area of the country. While you were busy tyring to mock me as if you were talking like a drunken redneck, you still missed the point that was being made.

I have plenty of discussions that are open and friendly, and others that take pokes at others.. but in this thread


Sure, everybody is open and friendly until they respond to something they disagree with. It's then that we see the true measure of a persons ability to be rational and fair. You condescend way too much, and take way too many little shots for me to debate you without making it personal. So, if you would tone down your rhetoric a little bit, and be a little more respectful, I would love to have some lively discussions with you. I think you would find we probably agree on a lot more than you would think.

NateR
02-12-2009, 04:59 PM
That is not my general perception of what Karma means.

In the sense of Karma = what goes around, comes around; you reap what you sow; things will come back and bite you in the ass :laugh: in that context I believe in karma and that God may have something to do with that at times. I think He does not so pleasant things to us sometimes (or allows it to happen) to teach us a lesson.

Then how do you reconcile that with the story of Job? Who did nothing wrong, but GOD allowed Satan to kill off his children, his livestock and destroy his property and health just to make a point.

Another example, what about Jesus? What exactly did He do to deserve being crucified? Nothing, of course.

What exactly did we do to deserve GOD's mercy? Again, nothing.

Don't confuse consequences of our actions with the religious belief of Karma. They're not the same.

Neezar
02-12-2009, 05:10 PM
Then how do you reconcile that with the story of Job? Who did nothing wrong, but GOD allowed Satan to kill off his children, his livestock and destroy his property and health just to make a point.

Another example, what about Jesus? What exactly did He do to deserve being crucified? Nothing, of course.

What exactly did we do to deserve GOD's mercy? Again, nothing.

Don't confuse consequences of our actions with the religious belief of Karma. They're not the same.

Like I stated before, I am not using karma in the context of a religious belief. And I said that I believe that God uses that tactic (i.e. karma, going around and coming around thing) sometimes. I never said that I thought he was limited to only it. :laugh:

I totally get what you are saying though and could have used a better choice of words or word in this case. But that word explained what I meant in less words. I'm lazy. So, spank me. :laugh:

Neezar
02-12-2009, 05:20 PM
Oh, and I definitely believe in people creating a good karma or bad karma around themselves. (another context of karma) lol

Informal - A distinctive aura, atmosphere, or feeling: There's bad karma around her.


Now, excuse me, I am going to work on my karma.
:laugh:

Bonnie
02-12-2009, 07:38 PM
Well, I do believe that we reap what we sow in this life. I think I understand what Denise was saying when she used "karma". I think it's about how we "think" and "act" (or react) towards others. For example, being positive instead of negative, or smiling and being upbeat instead of down-in-the-mouth all the time. I realize that just because you're a good person it doesn't mean bad things won't happen to you. But, I do think if you're not living right that at some point it will catch up to you.

This thread is obviously :rolleyes: a "hot topic" button, but we can agree to disagree and move on...to the next "one"! :tongue0011: :laugh:

Neezar
02-12-2009, 08:02 PM
Well, I do believe that we reap what we sow in this life. I think I understand what Denise was saying when she used "karma". I think it's about how we "think" and "act" (or react) towards others. For example, being positive instead of negative, or smiling and being upbeat instead of down-in-the-mouth all the time. I realize that just because you're a good person it doesn't mean bad things won't happen to you. But, I do think if you're not living right that at some point it will catch up to you.

This thread is obviously :rolleyes: a "hot topic" button, but we can agree to disagree and move on...to the next "one"! :tongue0011: :laugh:

You have some good karma there, Bonnie. :laugh:

Bonnie
02-12-2009, 08:10 PM
You have some good karma there, Bonnie. :laugh:

Yours must have rubbed off on me. :wink:

Hughes_GOAT
02-12-2009, 10:08 PM
There are plenty of passages in the Bible about GOD allowing evil men to flourish on the Earth in order to accomplish His will and that contradicts any concept of Karma.



so that explains it :laugh:

Tyburn
02-12-2009, 10:29 PM
There is no such thing as "Karma" its a psedo-religious thing...and actually it stems from angelology about "lords of Karma" supposedly the Angels involved in dealing with "karma"

its all bollox

Karma isnt Christian anyrate, its used in Polythestic Religions almost in place of a single god...because they have to many small ones...sometimes Karma is personified in other religions, like the Bible Personifies Wisdom

Then Karma is known as "Fortune" or "Fate" or "Providence"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWdIpFBGENQ

Primadawn
02-12-2009, 11:10 PM
To interject a little humor: I have an old friend from college that nicknamed me "Karma". When I asked why, he said "Because Karma's a b!tch and so are you!" :laugh:





:ninja: He was right!:ninja:

Neezar
02-13-2009, 03:17 AM
There is no such thing as "Karma".......



its all bollox



Well, that has never stopped you before. :ninja:





:laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
02-13-2009, 03:21 AM
Karma Karma Karma Chameleon, you come and go, you come and go.

Primadawn
02-13-2009, 03:34 AM
Karma Karma Karma Chameleon, you come and go, you come and go.


I now.....officially.....love you...:laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
02-13-2009, 03:41 AM
I now.....officially.....love you...:laugh:

:scared0015: :laugh:

Spiritwalker
02-13-2009, 04:32 AM
Karma Karma Karma Chameleon, you come and go, you come and go.


LOLOLOL... that rocks!

Primadawn
02-13-2009, 04:44 AM
:scared0015: :laugh:

Do you really want to hurt meeeee...

Hughes_GOAT
02-13-2009, 04:58 AM
Do you really want to hurt meeeee...

Touché :wink:

Moose
02-13-2009, 05:03 AM
LOLOLOL... that rocks!

Be careful with what you're saying is awesome. You already admitted to being a girl drink drunk.

Tyburn
02-13-2009, 12:23 PM
Touché :wink:
:laugh: your siggie is funny :laugh:

Spiritwalker
02-13-2009, 04:46 PM
Be careful with what you're saying is awesome. You already admitted to being a girl drink drunk.


no no no.. I couldn't have more than two before I have a diabetic coma.

I am a crown and coke guy mostly, but Yeager for shots and Long Island Iced Teas as my favorite drink.

J.B.
02-13-2009, 05:01 PM
no no no.. I couldn't have more than two before I have a diabetic coma.

I am a crown and coke guy mostly, but Yeager for shots and Long Island Iced Teas as my favorite drink.

what is Yeager? :laugh:

Spiritwalker
02-13-2009, 05:15 PM
what is Yeager? :laugh:

Yeagermister tastes like liquid licorice or Robitussin.. depending on who you talk to.

VCURamFan
02-13-2009, 06:45 PM
Yeagermister tastes like liquid licorice or Robitussin.. depending on who you talk to.Haha, it's "Jagermeister". It's German for "Master Hunter".

J.B.
02-13-2009, 07:34 PM
Yeagermister tastes like liquid licorice or Robitussin.. depending on who you talk to.


I know, I was just bustin your chops.

I love Jager! :)

County Mike
02-13-2009, 08:35 PM
Like, Chuck Yeager?

or

Jaromir Jagr?

Yeager bombs!

VCURamFan
02-13-2009, 08:37 PM
Like, Chuck Yeager?

or

Jaromir Jagr?

Yeager bombs!I got a new hair cut: I'm gettin' laid.

All my buddies, they got new hair cuts: they're gettin' laid!

J.B.
02-13-2009, 10:10 PM
I got a new hair cut: I'm gettin' laid.

All my buddies, they got new hair cuts: they're gettin' laid!

JAGER BOMB! :laugh:

County Mike
02-14-2009, 02:31 AM
JAGER BOMB! :laugh:

I bathe in that sh**. That video is hilarious.

Hughes_GOAT
02-14-2009, 03:30 AM
:laugh: your siggie is funny :laugh:

the pic or the quote?