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KENTUCKYREDBONE
11-22-2009, 07:41 AM
If we can trust Military tribunals to give some terrorist a fair Trial why do we need to give that khalid sheikh mohamed I think his name is a civilian trial?

NateR
11-22-2009, 05:17 PM
If we can trust Military tribunals to give some terrorist a fair Trial why do we need to give that khalid sheikh mohamed I think his name is a civilian trial?

Because, according to Liberals, if you attack and kill American soldiers, then you get a military tribunal; but if you attack and kill American civilians, then you are entitled to all the rights and privileges of an American citizen. :blink:

Anybody else wonder why I consider Liberals to be the stupidest people in the world?

Tyburn
11-27-2009, 08:32 PM
Because, according to Liberals, if you attack and kill American soldiers, then you get a military tribunal; but if you attack and kill American civilians, then you are entitled to all the rights and privileges of an American citizen. :blink:

Anybody else wonder why I consider Liberals to be the stupidest people in the world?

Thats because the Military is the Military, and the Citizenry is the Citizenry.

You shouldnt be trialing one by the other I dont think. The Military Hearings are, after all, Disciplinaries of an Employer...I bet they are even subject to Employment Law....Why would you trial someone who isnt in the Military by a Military Disciplinary??? :mellow: that doesnt make much sense does it?

mindue...I'm not sure they have rights if they are already convicted...and if they arent convicted, you have to prove the guilty to get a conviction.

Spiritwalker
11-27-2009, 11:23 PM
Because, according to Liberals, if you attack and kill American soldiers, then you get a military tribunal; but if you attack and kill American civilians, then you are entitled to all the rights and privileges of an American citizen. :blink:

Anybody else wonder why I consider Liberals to be the stupidest people in the world?

See I can "almost" understand this..

Speaking of

With the exception of the Pentagon ( the White House wasn't attacked.. but seems HIGHLY likely).. The targets from Sept 11 were not military..

Now if the people that are to be put on trial were survivors of the plane that hit the Pentagon.. then I would be all for a military trail...

But as it stands.. I do think that any trail should be a civillian trail. But I do have a problem with giving these goofballs a national medium to spread there ideals. Maybe a DA with a quick objection to get the guy shut up.. or maybe a "white noise" generator to be played when ever they go off on a tangent..

I like the idea of a military trial due to the swiftness and "non-public" format..

I like a civilian trial because the vast majority of people killed were not military and to be honest.. I am kinda wondering what they will say.

But that is where I am different than many...when some worthless piece of trash wants to expound their hate and rage, I want to hear what they have to say..

Like the cro-mag KKK losers.. or the homophobes... or even the anti tax idiots...When one of those people start "going off", I will stand and listen....if only for the reason to know your enemy.. it's easier to defeat them if you can grasp their way of thinking.

Tyburn
11-27-2009, 11:30 PM
if only for the reason to know your enemy.. it's easier to defeat them if you can grasp their way of thinking.

I've said that before....but its far easier for those with their own preconceived ideals to keep them. its got a lot to do with desensatization. Alot of people dont want to in any way make the enemy a human, it makes them harder to kill for a lot of people

que
11-28-2009, 02:09 AM
Anybody else wonder why I consider Liberals to be the stupidest people in the world?

because you're a conservative? :laugh:

atomdanger
11-28-2009, 08:56 AM
Because, according to Liberals, if you attack and kill American soldiers, then you get a military tribunal; but if you attack and kill American civilians, then you are entitled to all the rights and privileges of an American citizen. :blink:

Anybody else wonder why I consider Liberals to be the stupidest people in the world?

If you're not a US citizen why on earth do you get the same rights as one?
I don't get it.

Buzzard
11-28-2009, 10:32 AM
If you're not a US citizen why on earth do you get the same rights as one?
I don't get it.

Some interesting arguments about this are here.

http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Do_terror_suspects_deserve_the_same_rights_as_Amer ican_citizens

Tyburn
11-28-2009, 12:31 PM
because you're a conservative? :laugh:

:laugh:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
11-28-2009, 01:47 PM
I hope that they don't have to expose any Military secrets in the Trial! The Military Tribunal has different rules and I can't remember us giving our enemy access to Civilian courts before! Also Civilian Lawyers when defending Trash will sometimes turn the trial into a big circus! So I think use a Military Tribunal to determine Guilt or innocence then pump them dry of any useful info they may have. Then you can hang them!

Tyburn
11-28-2009, 03:30 PM
I hope that they don't have to expose any Military secrets in the Trial! The Military Tribunal has different rules and I can't remember us giving our enemy access to Civilian courts before! Also Civilian Lawyers when defending Trash will sometimes turn the trial into a big circus! So I think use a Military Tribunal to determine Guilt or innocence then pump them dry of any useful info they may have. Then you can hang them!

That is a major problem with trials involving prisoners of war, or terrorists. You could conduct a closed Trial of course I suppose..

Yes, definately hang them after guilt is determined. You should set up your own Tyburn on the National Mall. There is More then enough Room there :w00t: Its a Stones Throw from the Supreme Court, A stones throw from the Pentagon, so it wouldnt matter which kind of trial you ran. Its also in the Shadow of the Capitol Building, so the Government could arrange themselves on the balconies and steps outside to watch the Spectical. You wouldnt have much of a parade...but thats okay...these are criminals you dont want to give too much time to escape. If they threaten the citizenry it should be a public execution because it is every citizen who has in effect been wronged. You have BIG news channels, there is more then enough room for a press section, you can use the carpark above constipation Hall for that. They can park there with their satalite dishes, and then lift Helicopters off from there, for a perfect view over the Dome to Nu Tyburn LOL. Put people from the Federal Triangle into the Elipse and set up a large Screen against the Washington Monument, and even The President could watch from the White House Balcony...plus...dont mean to be funny...but IF there is an escape attempt then at least some of your civil service are not all on the Mall...and yet they are still close enough to be able to see with minimal technology. Finish it off with a nice Fireworks display launched from the pool infront of Lincoln....or maybe from Arlington Cemetary and you'd have a fantastic day.

J.B.
11-28-2009, 08:12 PM
Why should somebody like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed even get a trial?

The only reason we didn't clip him right when we found him is because he looks like the Dunkin Donuts guy and we figured if we hooked up some car batteries to his nipples he might give up the booty on his jihadist buddies.

As for the Ft. Hood nutjob. They should have just finished him off on the spot. It's not like he was of any use to us. Now our military has to waste resources on a scumbag that is probably gonna get the death penalty anyway.

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 10:25 AM
Why should somebody like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed even get a trial?

The only reason we didn't clip him right when we found him is because he looks like the Dunkin Donuts guy and we figured if we hooked up some car batteries to his nipples he might give up the booty on his jihadist buddies.

As for the Ft. Hood nutjob. They should have just finished him off on the spot. It's not like he was of any use to us. Now our military has to waste resources on a scumbag that is probably gonna get the death penalty anyway.


Because everyone deserves a Trial. Even Saddam had a Trial. Your whole Civilization is based on innocent til proven guilty. If they were caught in the act, it shouldnt be difficult to prove their guilt should it. Its important because it makes it official and its part of the process they must face for having done their wrongs.

That was half the whoha over the Americans storing people supposed to be terrorists in Guantanamo Bay...firstly...ask your self why they werent stored in America (answer...because you cant detain people for longer then a certain length without trail in America) Secondly...its a path to corruption. You and me both know that those at Guantanamo almost certainly are guilty...but having the option as a Government to hold people before guilt has been asscertained...well...its naughty...supposing they just dont like you but you've done nothing wrong....they could say you have, stuff you in there...and never need to worry..we all know that too much power to governments lead to corruption...whilst the barrel is pointed away from you, you dont care...but as soon as the Government turn it and point it at you...you'd suddenly revert back to what an evil government you have.

People need to be more objective about this subject. this isnt just about terrorists...its about your government...any government...watch that you dont lose some of your rights in a VERY silent manner....

Think about it...this could be the answer to all your governments prayers. No need to disarm the public, when you can lock them away forerver without trial. Its high time some of you Americans woke up...and saw what could..and would in the future have happened.

Getting rid of Guantanamo is Barack Obamas ONLY success in his whole Presidency of any value, particularly to his own people...Democrat, liberal, or not...he said the Government cant have that power...take your blinkers off and aggree with him...because he's right...no government should have the power to detain indefinately without trial. you know it, I know it...dont be afraid to say it. :)

J.B.
11-29-2009, 11:49 AM
Because everyone deserves a Trial. Even Saddam had a Trial. Your whole Civilization is based on innocent til proven guilty. If they were caught in the act, it shouldnt be difficult to prove their guilt should it. Its important because it makes it official and its part of the process they must face for having done their wrongs.

That was half the whoha over the Americans storing people supposed to be terrorists in Guantanamo Bay...firstly...ask your self why they werent stored in America (answer...because you cant detain people for longer then a certain length without trail in America) Secondly...its a path to corruption. You and me both know that those at Guantanamo almost certainly are guilty...but having the option as a Government to hold people before guilt has been asscertained...well...its naughty...supposing they just dont like you but you've done nothing wrong....they could say you have, stuff you in there...and never need to worry..we all know that too much power to governments lead to corruption...whilst the barrel is pointed away from you, you dont care...but as soon as the Government turn it and point it at you...you'd suddenly revert back to what an evil government you have.

People need to be more objective about this subject. this isnt just about terrorists...its about your government...any government...watch that you dont lose some of your rights in a VERY silent manner....

Think about it...this could be the answer to all your governments prayers. No need to disarm the public, when you can lock them away forerver without trial. Its high time some of you Americans woke up...and saw what could..and would in the future have happened.

Getting rid of Guantanamo is Barack Obamas ONLY success in his whole Presidency of any value, particularly to his own people...Democrat, liberal, or not...he said the Government cant have that power...take your blinkers off and aggree with him...because he's right...no government should have the power to detain indefinately without trial. you know it, I know it...dont be afraid to say it. :)

See, I don't really agree. I guess that in some respects, I just don't think some people deserve it. I'm not gonna really debate my point much further than that, because just while I know that I believe my point is right, does not mean that it is a realistic approach.

Kinda like your view on payouts in MMA. I see where your heart is, but I know, and we all know it's unrealistic.

See, we both taught each other something! :laugh:

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 11:56 AM
See, I don't really agree. I guess that in some respects, I just don't think some people deserve it. I'm not gonna really debate my point much further than that, because just while I know that I believe my point is right, does not mean that it is a realistic approach.

Kinda like your view on payouts in MMA. I see where your heart is, but I know, and we all know it's unrealistic.


oh its realistic...you just have to decide if your prepared to give the government that much power.

My pay scale is also realistic...infact you wouldnt notice the difference with my pay scale from the UFCs ordinary running...whereas if you gave your goverment that power...well one day it might be unwittingly you sitting in the chair after no trial because they thought you didnt deserve it...catch my drift :wink:

J.B.
11-29-2009, 12:38 PM
oh its realistic...you just have to decide if your prepared to give the government that much power.

My pay scale is also realistic...infact you wouldnt notice the difference with my pay scale from the UFCs ordinary running...whereas if you gave your goverment that power...well one day it might be unwittingly you sitting in the chair after no trial because they thought you didnt deserve it...catch my drift :wink:

Well, the government already does have that power. I mean, they could have just killed both Kalid Sheik Mohammed and the Ft. Hood guy, and it would have been completely justified and nobody would have given a crap. Heck, the Ft Hood guy SHOULD have died for as many times as he was shot. Those two deserve to die, and everybody knows it. I realize WHY we need the system, but it don't mean that I need to think that ALL men deserve to be treated equally. Some people don't deserve the same justice.

Again, no. Your pay scale wouldn't work because fighters who draw more DEMAND more. Big name guys would LOL at that idea. Not to mention that getting the bigger purse is also part of the mental game, and a lot of fighters demand it out of respect. They are not going out there to do some ordinary job. They are competitors AND entertainers (which you have said yourself when criticizing Anderson Silva). As competitors, they are in a dangerous environment where they could be seriously injured for the rest of their life. EVERY dollar counts to a fighter. As entertainers, they deserve to be compensated for what they deliver in terms of entertainment. You cannot make an argument that would hold water to support giving a guy like Shane Carwin MORE money than Brock Lesnar at this point in time. In the fight game, and in any sport, you gotta pay your dues and prove yourself, then you get the big money and fame.

Buzzard
11-29-2009, 01:03 PM
Because everyone deserves a Trial. Even Saddam had a Trial. Your whole Civilization is based on innocent til proven guilty. If they were caught in the act, it shouldnt be difficult to prove their guilt should it. Its important because it makes it official and its part of the process they must face for having done their wrongs.

That was half the whoha over the Americans storing people supposed to be terrorists in Guantanamo Bay...firstly...ask your self why they werent stored in America (answer...because you cant detain people for longer then a certain length without trail in America) Secondly...its a path to corruption. You and me both know that those at Guantanamo almost certainly are guilty...but having the option as a Government to hold people before guilt has been asscertained...well...its naughty...supposing they just dont like you but you've done nothing wrong....they could say you have, stuff you in there...and never need to worry..we all know that too much power to governments lead to corruption...whilst the barrel is pointed away from you, you dont care...but as soon as the Government turn it and point it at you...you'd suddenly revert back to what an evil government you have.

People need to be more objective about this subject. this isnt just about terrorists...its about your government...any government...watch that you dont lose some of your rights in a VERY silent manner....

Think about it...this could be the answer to all your governments prayers. No need to disarm the public, when you can lock them away forerver without trial. Its high time some of you Americans woke up...and saw what could..and would in the future have happened.

Getting rid of Guantanamo is Barack Obamas ONLY success in his whole Presidency of any value, particularly to his own people...Democrat, liberal, or not...he said the Government cant have that power...take your blinkers off and aggree with him...because he's right...no government should have the power to detain indefinately without trial. you know it, I know it...dont be afraid to say it. :)

While I may strongly disagree with you on many things, I agree with you on most of the points you make here.

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Well, the government already does have that power. I mean, they could have just killed both Kalid Sheik Mohammed and the Ft. Hood guy, and it would have been completely justified and nobody would have given a crap. Heck, the Ft Hood guy SHOULD have died for as many times as he was shot. Those two deserve to die, and everybody knows it. I realize WHY we need the system, but it don't mean that I need to think that ALL men deserve to be treated equally. Some people don't deserve the same justice.

Again, no. Your pay scale wouldn't work because fighters who draw more DEMAND more. Big name guys would LOL at that idea. Not to mention that getting the bigger purse is also part of the mental game, and a lot of fighters demand it out of respect. They are not going out there to do some ordinary job. They are competitors AND entertainers (which you have said yourself when criticizing Anderson Silva). As competitors, they are in a dangerous environment where they could be seriously injured for the rest of their life. EVERY dollar counts to a fighter. As entertainers, they deserve to be compensated for what they deliver in terms of entertainment. You cannot make an argument that would hold water to support giving a guy like Shane Carwin MORE money than Brock Lesnar at this point in time. In the fight game, and in any sport, you gotta pay your dues and prove yourself, then you get the big money and fame.


Again...beggers cant be choosers. There is nothing stopping them going for high winnings...but if they dont win, if they cant back up their ego, then they cant have the money...and what if they cant...what are they gonna do? go work for some second rate insitution that pays anything for a single fight, then collapses?

Brock Lesnar has nothing to fear...unless he CANT beat Shane Carwin...its called put your money where your mouth is.

You pay your dues by winning J.B its not rocket science...if you win you may have winnings...but if you lose after asking for big winnings...you get half and your opponent gets what you felt you deserved for winning.

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 02:24 PM
While I may strongly disagree with you on many things, I agree with you on most of the points you make here.

:laugh: thanks :ashamed:

Neezar
11-29-2009, 02:48 PM
Because everyone deserves a Trial. Even Saddam had a Trial. Your whole Civilization is based on innocent til proven guilty.

That was half the whoha over the Americans storing people supposed to be terrorists in Guantanamo Bay...firstly...ask your self why they werent stored in America (answer...because you cant detain people for longer then a certain length without trail in America) Secondly...its a path to corruption. You and me both know that those at Guantanamo almost certainly are guilty...but having the option as a Government to hold people before guilt has been asscertained...well...its naughty.......


People need to be more objective about this subject. this isnt just about terrorists...its about your government...any government...watch that you dont lose some of your rights in a VERY silent manner....

Getting rid of Guantanamo is Barack Obamas ONLY success in his whole Presidency of any value, particularly to his own people...Democrat, liberal, or not...he said the Government cant have that power...take your blinkers off and aggree with him...because he's right...no government should have the power to detain indefinately without trial. you know it, I know it...dont be afraid to say it. :)

Dave, do you know that your government does this also? :huh:

:laugh:

Not only do you guys hold suspected terrorist without a trial (or you certainly have been known to) but you guys don't even have to charge them with a crime for the first 28 days that they are being held.

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 02:53 PM
Dave, do you know that your government does this also? :huh:

:laugh:

Not only do you guys hold suspected terrorist without a trial (or you certainly have been known to) but you guys don't even have to charge them with a crime for the first 28 days that they are being held.

We can hold them without charge for 90 days now. BUT we can never hold them without Trial, come what may, after 90 days they either get trial or freedom.

Thats not right either...but at least we cant hold them indefinately without Trial, like America could with Guantanamo.

Neezar
11-29-2009, 02:59 PM
We can hold them without charge for 90 days now. BUT we can never hold them without Trial, come what may, after 90 days they either get trial or freedom.

Thats not right either...but at least we cant hold them indefinately without Trial, like America could with Guantanamo.

Tony Blair was under pressure last night over controversial laws allowing the detention without trial of 14 foreign terrorist suspects who have been held for up to two years in "Britain's Guantanamo Bay".

Human rights groups and MPs condemned sweeping powers in the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act as an affront to the rule of law. Under the emergency legislation, passed after the 11 September attacks on the United States, foreign nationals suspected of terrorist activity can be held indefinitely as an alternative to deportation (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x377398#) if they face torture or death in their own countries.

Fourteen suspects are being held at a total cost of up to 750,000 under the anti-terrorism legislation. Seven of the detainees are thought to be held at Belmarsh top-security jail in south-east London, where it costs 36,000 a year to hold each prisoner, and fiveat Woodhill prison in Milton Keynes, where holding each prisoner costs 31,000 a year.

The human rights group Liberty yesterday led calls for the Act's repeal....<more>



Just say it is for their own good and 'Ta da' you got yourself a prisoner indefinitely.

ps I know this is an older article but trust me, it is still happening.

pss Another question, do you not think that your government has sent people to us at Guantanamo Bay? Let us do the dirty work so you can criticize us. lol

J.B.
11-29-2009, 03:15 PM
Again...beggers cant be choosers. There is nothing stopping them going for high winnings...but if they dont win, if they cant back up their ego, then they cant have the money...and what if they cant...what are they gonna do? go work for some second rate insitution that pays anything for a single fight, then collapses?

Brock Lesnar has nothing to fear...unless he CANT beat Shane Carwin...its called put your money where your mouth is.

You pay your dues by winning J.B its not rocket science...if you win you may have winnings...but if you lose after asking for big winnings...you get half and your opponent gets what you felt you deserved for winning.

No, Dave, it's not rocket science...but you are missing the point as to how this actually works, and why it should work that way.

Let's just take this conversation back to the UFC thread, lol

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 03:17 PM
No, Dave, it's not rocket science...but you are missing the point as to how this actually works, and why it should work that way.

Let's just take this conversation back to the UFC thread, lol

im playing this through email reminders...not completely sure which thread ive said what in. :unsure-1::laugh:

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 03:25 PM
Just say it is for their own good and 'Ta da' you got yourself a prisoner indefinitely.

ps I know this is an older article but trust me, it is still happening.

pss Another question, do you not think that your government has sent people to us at Guantanamo Bay? Let us do the dirty work so you can criticize us. lol

Our Government did YOUR bidding through out the whole collection of prisoners to do with the War on Terror

In essence...Tony Blair was just implementing a form of Americanism into England, thats what his whole last term was about. Becoming the US Governor of England...which is what he was from 2002 onwards.

The thing is...it was the Americans ideal, everything was their idea...thats what the Enqiriy into Iraq is basically saying. The Government were forced into a U-Tern as soon as Tony met George...a short private meeting nearly a year before the invasion...and then...we were a mere extention of whatever Government Civil Service department of yours controls Foreign Policy

:laugh:

Neezar
11-29-2009, 03:27 PM
Our Government did YOUR bidding through out the whole collection of prisoners to do with the War on Terror



Of course. Blame the evil Americans! :laugh:

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 03:39 PM
Of course. Blame the evil Americans! :laugh:

:laugh: I couldnt think of what else to say :ashamed:

J.B.
11-29-2009, 10:37 PM
Of course. Blame the evil Americans! :laugh:

Damn, your good at exposing him, and getting him to stop dead in his tracks...

I'm starting to think he has a crush on you....:wink:

:)

Tyburn
11-29-2009, 11:06 PM
Damn, your good at exposing him, and getting him to stop dead in his tracks...

I'm starting to think he has a crush on you....:wink:

:)

No woman has ever exposed me :blink:

:laugh::laugh:

...and its Sugarplum I love, not Denise...Sugarplum will be my Wife...one day :)