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Play The Man
11-08-2009, 09:53 PM
http://www.ligonier.org/tabletalk/2009/11/1205_The_Gospel_Is_for_the_Broken

The Gospel Is for the Broken
by Rod Rosenbladt
In this article I want to address a particular problem: What we might do as Christians with those who see themselves as “alumni” of the Christian faith. By that I mean those who once professed that Christ shed His blood, freely justified them before God, forgave their sin, gave them eternal life — but now they don’t believe it.

Given my limited space, I can only deal with today’s “sad ones,” the “having-given-up-on-it-all” ones. (In the full address of which this article is a condensed version, I also talk a little about the gospel of Christ for today’s “mad ones,” the angry ones.)

For some reasons that I think are fairly specifiable, more people than we would like to think leave “Bible-believing” Christianity. Some are sad about it. Some are mad about it. In our day, there are so many of these people that it is hard not to come into contact with them. Many of these people were broken by the church. I know that sounds harsh. As Christians, it’s upsetting to hear words like that. But for many people, this is how they really see what has taken place in their lives.

By the “sad alumni” of the Christian faith, I mean the hundreds whose acquaintance with the Christian church was often one in which they were helped to move from unbelief (or from rank moralism) into professing faith in Jesus Christ. They heard the preaching of God’s law and then heard the announcement of Christ’s work on their behalf on the cross — Jesus as the God-man who met the Law’s demands for them and died for their sin, died to save them, died to give them eternal life. And they came to believe that the cross of Christ was their salvation.

But something happened after that, something that broke them. And, in many cases, I think what happened is nameable. It has to do with what our first president at Christ College Irvine called “law-gospel-law.” It’s that third point that, if executed badly, results in a lot of the “sad alumni” of Christianity. If Reformation folk execute this badly, the sensitive Christian believer can be driven to a slavery as bad as any slavery done by any totalitarian dictator. If the Ten Commandments were not impossible enough, the preaching of Christian behavior, of Christian ethics, of Christian living, can drive a professing Christian into despairing unbelief. Not happy unbelief — tragic, despairing, sad unbelief.

In the beginning, it seemed that now that we had been justified by the death of Christ, we were equipped to obey verses like “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). Or in 1 John 3:9: “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning.” Or Paul in Philippians 4:13: “I can do all things through him who strengthens me.” And then, the unexpected. Sin continued to be a part of our lives; it stubbornly would not allow us to eliminate it the way we expected. Continuing sin on our part seems to be evidence that we aren’t really believers at all. We start to imagine that we need to be “born again again.”

When the major stress in pulpit and curriculum shifts from “Christ outside of me, dying for me” to “Christ inside of me, improving me,” the upshot is always the same: many broken, sad ex-Christians who despair of being able to live the Christian life as the Bible describes it. So they do what is really a sane thing to do — they leave. The way it looks to them is that “the message of Christianity has broken them on the rack.” To put it bluntly, it feels better to have some earthly happiness as a pagan and then be damned than it feels to be trying every day as a Christian to do something that is one continuous failure — and then be damned anyway.

The key question here is a very basic one: Can the cross and blood of Christ save a Christian (failing as he is in living the Christian life) or not? Most of us would say, I hope, that the shed blood of Christ is sufficient to save a sinner all by itself. So far, so good.

But is the blood of Christ enough — all by itself — to save a still-sinful-Christian? Or isn’t it? Is what Luther said about the Christian being simul justus et peccator biblical or not? Can Christ’s righteousness imputed save a still-sinful Christian? And can it save him all by itself? Or not? I think the way we answer this question determines whether we have anything at all to say to the “sad alumni” of Christianity.

Has the Law done its killing work on these “sad ones?” Boy, has it ever. They need more of the Law like they need a hole in the head. For them, the gospel often got lost in a whole bunch of “Christian-life preaching.” And it “did them in.” So they left. And down deep there is a sadness in such people that defies description.

C.F.W. Walther said that as soon as the Law has done its crushing work, the gospel is to be instantly preached or said to such a man or woman. What the “sad alumni” need to hear (perhaps for the first time) is that Christian failures are going to walk into heaven, be welcomed into heaven, leap into heaven like a calf leaping out of its stall, laughing and laughing as if it’s all too good to be true. It isn’t just that we failures will get in. It’s that we will get in like that. “You mean it was just Jesus’ death for me, that’s why I’m here?” But, of course. That’s the point isn’t it? As a believer in Jesus you won’t be condemned! No believer in Jesus will be. Not a single one!

Maglorius
11-08-2009, 10:57 PM
That's a great article, and it is so true. We preach to the lost and rejoice in someone coming to Jesus, but than the ball gets dropped. What gets preached is keep your nose clean and you'll be blessed. Unfortunately what happens is when someone becomes a new believer they think that all there past problems, sin etc will be done with. For a while they ride the wave of being a new follower in Christ and they come down off the wave and hit the ground hard. Their past problems emerge their ugly heads again and usually a lot worse and stronger. The problem here lies in the church not preaching that life as a Christian will get harder not easier and to expect your sins and temptations to intensify a hundred fold.:punch: Very few preachers that I have herd ever say that when you accept Christ the devil will pursue you relentlessly and your flesh will rise against you at every opportunity. Becoming a Christ follower doesn't mean these things go away, but that we have the Holy Spirit to help battle against them. I had a friend of mine say once that if you are a Christ follower and there isn't something in your life that you struggle with and battle against than something is wrong.

Crisco
11-09-2009, 04:19 PM
The problem with this article is there is actually scripture to the contrary.. I don't care to look for it but it was posted by Chris F.

It gets rather confusing... Are we saved or are we not.. I hope I am but sometimes I'm not so sure... I'm a horrible sinner but it hurts deep down every time I do it..

Believing in Christ saves you but are you saved if that belief doesn't stop you from your misdeeds...

It does get discouraging and I get deeply disappointed in myself and feel ashamed sometimes when I pray...

I dunno. Just ranting.

Maglorius
11-09-2009, 05:08 PM
Yes we are saved and both you and I are horrible sinners, and if it does make you hurt when you do sin, I would say that is a good indication that you are saved. If you didn't care, than I would be worried. I just want to say and encourage you to keep going to Jesus and keep praying to him and that the shame you feel is not coming from God but from satan. When we come to believe in the saving grace of Jesus doesn't mean all our past sins disappear. It is a process, our sanctification in Christ is a process, we just have to continue to repent and humble ourselves before God and those sins that are so prevalent will begin to fade. When I am really struggling with sin I always turn to Romans 7. This is a great reading on Paul's struggles and how we are to view the reality of sin. This is one of my passages of scripture that I go to for encouragement and I will pass it on to all here.

Philippians 4:4-7
4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Crisco
11-09-2009, 05:20 PM
Yes we are saved and both you and I are horrible sinners, and if it does make you hurt when you do sin, I would say that is a good indication that you are saved. If you didn't care, than I would be worried. I just want to say and encourage you to keep going to Jesus and keep praying to him and that the shame you feel is not coming from God but from satan. When we come to believe in the saving grace of Jesus doesn't mean all our past sins disappear. It is a process, our sanctification in Christ is a process, we just have to continue to repent and humble ourselves before God and those sins that are so prevalent will begin to fade. When I am really struggling with sin I always turn to Romans 7. This is a great reading on Paul's struggles and how we are to view the reality of sin. This is one of my passages of scripture that I go to for encouragement and I will pass it on to all here.

Philippians 4:4-7
4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Thanks brother :)

Play The Man
11-09-2009, 07:19 PM
The problem with this article is there is actually scripture to the contrary.. I don't care to look for it but it was posted by Chris F.


Perhaps you are referring to the verses that are in the article above - paragraph 6, just before the bolded portion?

Crisco
11-09-2009, 10:37 PM
Perhaps you are referring to the verses that are in the article above - paragraph 6, just before the bolded portion?

More a long the lines of becoming a new creature when saved. There is plenty of scripture to the contrary of that aswell.


I'll hold fast to my faith in God. I'll do my best to live by his commandments and hope and pray for the rest. It's all we can really do ya know?

Chris F
11-09-2009, 11:12 PM
The problem with this article is there is actually scripture to the contrary.. I don't care to look for it but it was posted by Chris F.

It gets rather confusing... Are we saved or are we not.. I hope I am but sometimes I'm not so sure... I'm a horrible sinner but it hurts deep down every time I do it..

Believing in Christ saves you but are you saved if that belief doesn't stop you from your misdeeds...

It does get discouraging and I get deeply disappointed in myself and feel ashamed sometimes when I pray...

I dunno. Just ranting.

The best way to assure you are saved without a single doubt is 1 John chapters 2 and 3. If the Holy Spirit led you to repentance and you forsook your old man to follow the Lordship of Jesus Christ then you can rest assure in your salvation. Just pray the God reveals anything in your life that may be a hindrance and turn it over to him and I bet you will know for sure then. We all commit sin everyday, the difference is do we repent which is to say turn from and stop doing it. Misdeeds will happen in a fallen world. We just have to refrain from thumbing them in God's face if you know what I mean.

Remind me what I said and I may remember which scripture I posted.

Chris F
11-09-2009, 11:16 PM
More a long the lines of becoming a new creature when saved. There is plenty of scripture to the contrary of that aswell.


I'll hold fast to my faith in God. I'll do my best to live by his commandments and hope and pray for the rest. It's all we can really do ya know?

KJV Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 2:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Are these the ones you were refering to?

Crisco
11-11-2009, 08:39 PM
KJV Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 2:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Are these the ones you were refering to?

Yes

Tyburn
11-15-2009, 09:57 PM
The problem with this article is there is actually scripture to the contrary.. I don't care to look for it but it was posted by Chris F.

It gets rather confusing... Are we saved or are we not.. I hope I am but sometimes I'm not so sure... I'm a horrible sinner but it hurts deep down every time I do it..

Believing in Christ saves you but are you saved if that belief doesn't stop you from your misdeeds...

It does get discouraging and I get deeply disappointed in myself and feel ashamed sometimes when I pray...

I dunno. Just ranting.

:angry: never mind what Chris F posts, thankfully, for his sake, Salvation isnt based on works. Neither is it possible for someone who has become a Christian to suddenly lose his salvation...GOD doesnt change his mind, niether does GOD break his promises. You arent going to suddenly stop doing all your misdeeds because your a Christian, and you know that Crisco, everyone falls short of perfection...including Chris F, who had better believe his theology is mistaken or else he by his past actions on this forum alone, might have lost it :rolleyes:

Rev
11-15-2009, 10:58 PM
:rolleyes:Oh Lord! here we go again.

Tyburn
11-15-2009, 11:36 PM
:rolleyes:Oh Lord!.

:ninja: No, Just his Humble Servant :laugh:

Chris F
11-16-2009, 10:52 PM
:angry: never mind what Chris F posts, thankfully, for his sake, Salvation isnt based on works. Neither is it possible for someone who has become a Christian to suddenly lose his salvation...GOD doesnt change his mind, niether does GOD break his promises. You arent going to suddenly stop doing all your misdeeds because your a Christian, and you know that Crisco, everyone falls short of perfection...including Chris F, who had better believe his theology is mistaken or else he by his past actions on this forum alone, might have lost it :rolleyes:

Dave you are clueless my man. You have no idea what I believe because your head is so far.... never mind I promised Mark I'd play nice. But what you said is not what I teach at all. If you have scripture to back yours up here would be a great place to post it in context of course. :)

Tyburn
11-17-2009, 12:30 AM
Dave you are clueless my man. You have no idea what I believe because your head is so far.... never mind I promised Mark I'd play nice. But what you said is not what I teach at all. If you have scripture to back yours up here would be a great place to post it in context of course. :)

I know exactly what I believe Chris, as for Scripture to back it up? look at the Gospels, or look in the psalms. The Gospels say if you repent you are saved, and the psalms say there is no spliting up a man from GOD...you know if I go up to the heavens there you are, if I go to the depths, your there aswell, sorta thing.

Tell me the verse that says you can lose your Salvation. Apart from the unforgivable sin, and I might believe you and apologise..until then dont expect a change of heart. When I see other forum patrons hurt through what you've said, or worse, questioning themselves because you have spoken an unGODly herasy, then it bothers me. I want to say...well pretty much exactly what I said. Dont let Pastor Chris convince you his umpopular and minoirity view is anything but a false interpretation of Scripture.

Chris F
11-17-2009, 10:07 PM
I know exactly what I believe Chris, as for Scripture to back it up? look at the Gospels, or look in the psalms. The Gospels say if you repent you are saved, and the psalms say there is no spliting up a man from GOD...you know if I go up to the heavens there you are, if I go to the depths, your there aswell, sorta thing.

Tell me the verse that says you can lose your Salvation. Apart from the unforgivable sin, and I might believe you and apologise..until then dont expect a change of heart. When I see other forum patrons hurt through what you've said, or worse, questioning themselves because you have spoken an unGODly herasy, then it bothers me. I want to say...well pretty much exactly what I said. Dont let Pastor Chris convince you his umpopular and minoirity view is anything but a false interpretation of Scripture.

See dave there lies your ignorance. You assume I believe you can loose your salvation. I do not believe that at all. Bible says nothing can separate you from God's love. What I do believe is that there are a lot of people who think they are saved because they said some little prayer or got baptized. That simply is not true. The epistles of John and peter both say that. Once a person has been chosen by God and they have accepted the leading of the Holy Spirit they are eternally saved. However the bible is clear that one who is trully saved will not want to willfully commit sin. This is why Jesus talks about removing certain churches candlesticks and that ones name will be blotted out from the book of life. Those called by God and saved by grace through the cross by faith have nothing to worry about. But those who think because they confessed when they were 8 and now live like the devil are the ones who need to worry. One who willfully walks in sin(in the flesh) is not saved Romans 6-8. John says those people were never really one of us meaning they never were saved to start with. SO one cannot loose what they never had. Get the fact about my beliefs before you condem me and bash me. Just because I do not swallow your liberal theology does not make me a false teacher. You will need to provide book chapter and verse with specifics to prove me wrong Dave. Just as the thread says the gospel is for the broken not those who think they had anything to do with their salvation. That is not brokenness that is pride.

So you said I teach and unGodly heresy. Prove it or repent for your false witness.

Tyburn
11-18-2009, 12:36 AM
What I do believe is that there are a lot of people who think they are saved because they said some little prayer or got baptized. That simply is not true.

However the bible is clear that one who is trully saved will not want to willfully commit sin.

Well I aggree with you on that BUT, you have certainly advocated SWAL before, I know...because you were about the ONLY person in past discussions to bring it up.

...oh and btw, not wanting to willfully commit sin...does not equate to sin free. I'd thank you kindly if you didnt put THAT into peoples heads. :ninja:

Chris F
11-18-2009, 12:50 AM
Well I aggree with you on that BUT, you have certainly advocated SWAL before, I know...because you were about the ONLY person in past discussions to bring it up.

...oh and btw, not wanting to willfully commit sin...does not equate to sin free. I'd thank you kindly if you didnt put THAT into peoples heads. :ninja:

This has been my belief fow awhile; so I am not sure what you are talking about advocating SWAL. I have in the past played for a lack of better terms devils advocate to see where people really stand, but what I just posted has been my beliefs for a long time now. Salvation cannot be lost by those who do not have it.

As for your last comment of course we cannot be sin free. John said the person who thinks they have no sin is a liar. But willful sinning isto continue the same sin even if you repented of it. If you were for say a compulsive liar and got saved, well you would not continue to lie and would come clean for past lies. Not everyone struggles with the same sin issues. Or if you are having sex outside of marriage and get saved you will not keep living with the person and having sex if you were really saved. That is what is meant by willful sinning.

Tyburn
11-18-2009, 12:58 AM
I have in the past played for a lack of better terms devils advocate to see where people really stand, but what I just posted has been my beliefs for a long time now. .


Oh right...so now you say you dont believe it and were just being difficult.

Giving into temptation once or twice isnt the same as willfully sinning. You dont automatically never do a sin again that you've already repented for. Thats what I mean. your so tightly sprung I wonder if you ever quit your legalism. Real life isnt a simple matter of repenting and then never sinning again...and if you make out that it is, you cause damage to those who dont want to sin...but occasionally slip up...and then condemn themselves for it.

Chris F
11-18-2009, 02:30 AM
Oh right...so now you say you dont believe it and were just being difficult.

Giving into temptation once or twice isnt the same as willfully sinning. You dont automatically never do a sin again that you've already repented for. Thats what I mean. your so tightly sprung I wonder if you ever quit your legalism. Real life isnt a simple matter of repenting and then never sinning again...and if you make out that it is, you cause damage to those who dont want to sin...but occasionally slip up...and then condemn themselves for it.

By your logic you are saying God's saving power is not more powerful then the desire to sin. It is no wonder you have so many struggles. It is black and white. You either are saved or you are not. When one is saved they will go out of their way to avoid sin not embrace it in the name of grace. Your theology does not line up with scripture. Show me book chapter and verse that says a believer will still want to commit sin. Romans says the exact opposite as does 1 and 2 John.

Play The Man
11-18-2009, 07:11 AM
By your logic you are saying God's saving power is not more powerful then the desire to sin. It is no wonder you have so many struggles. It is black and white. You either are saved or you are not. When one is saved they will go out of their way to avoid sin not embrace it in the name of grace. Your theology does not line up with scripture. Show me book chapter and verse that says a believer will still want to commit sin. Romans says the exact opposite as does 1 and 2 John.

7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 7. It sounds as if Tyburn has struggles, just like Paul, who wrote, "Wretched man that I am!" and "For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."

Tyburn
11-18-2009, 01:03 PM
By your logic you are saying God's saving power is not more powerful then the desire to sin. It is no wonder you have so many struggles. It is black and white.

No. by my logic I am saying we live in a fallen world, and from our point of view, sin can EASILY diminish the power of GOD in our lives. again, trying to avoid sin doesnt always mean you never make a mistake.

As for my Struggles...perhaps your not praying enough for me Pastor Chris...rather then respond to this. Why dont you spend the moment you would writing rage and condemnation down, to actually pray for me instead.

Better still...why dont you do that in response to every post where what you actually just want to say to people is "your wrong" ALL you do on this forum is be mean and hurtful to people. THAT is a sin...why dont you simply STOP IT. Why dont you stop telling Mothers they make bad parents? why dont you stop playing "devils advocate" to always get a reaction, you dont like it when its done to you...so much for treating others as you want to be treated...another sin you just cant stop doing...Does that mean your not a Christian?

No...it means your a fallen Human being, who probably means well, but who stumbles time and time again over the same sin. If its as black and white as you make out, then you must be one of the most UNchristian people on here...and I anit the only one that feels that way, people have you on ignore more then you think.

Its time you quit the legalizm and the condemnation, and the hollier then thou attitude, and started bearing Christian Fruit instead.

Tyburn
11-18-2009, 01:09 PM
Romans 7. It sounds as if Tyburn has struggles, just like Paul, who wrote, "Wretched man that I am!" and "For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."

Thank you. :) EXACTLY my point
.

Chris F
11-19-2009, 05:19 AM
Romans 7. It sounds as if Tyburn has struggles, just like Paul, who wrote, "Wretched man that I am!" and "For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."

That chapter deals with the sin nature the desire to commit sin. We all struggle with that not the willful act in doing it. Paul did not go out and seek to commit the same sin over and over. You found nothing more then an out of context proof text. We all struggle like Paul with the sin nature.

Chris F
11-19-2009, 05:22 AM
No. by my logic I am saying we live in a fallen world, and from our point of view, sin can EASILY diminish the power of GOD in our lives. again, trying to avoid sin doesnt always mean you never make a mistake.

As for my Struggles...perhaps your not praying enough for me Pastor Chris...rather then respond to this. Why dont you spend the moment you would writing rage and condemnation down, to actually pray for me instead.

Better still...why dont you do that in response to every post where what you actually just want to say to people is "your wrong" ALL you do on this forum is be mean and hurtful to people. THAT is a sin...why dont you simply STOP IT. Why dont you stop telling Mothers they make bad parents? why dont you stop playing "devils advocate" to always get a reaction, you dont like it when its done to you...so much for treating others as you want to be treated...another sin you just cant stop doing...Does that mean your not a Christian?

No...it means your a fallen Human being, who probably means well, but who stumbles time and time again over the same sin. If its as black and white as you make out, then you must be one of the most UNchristian people on here...and I anit the only one that feels that way, people have you on ignore more then you think.

Its time you quit the legalizm and the condemnation, and the hollier then thou attitude, and started bearing Christian Fruit instead.

Dave I do pray for you and all those I comment with on here. The problem is your liberal world view and you think Jesus is some cosmic hippy with peace love and groovy colors. But the fact is he said Be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect. Everything else is just an excuse.

Tyburn
11-19-2009, 12:59 PM
Dave I do pray for you and all those I comment with on here. The problem is your liberal world view and you think Jesus is some cosmic hippy with peace love and groovy colors. But the fact is he said Be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect. Everything else is just an excuse.
Be Holy Because I am Holy

okay Chris...why are you not Holy?

We've already shown scripture in perfect context that says that just because you are a Christian does not mean you will stop sinning, even though you try.

Its over Chris. Its people like you that give Christianity a bad name. Your like some nasty modern day Christian Pharasee.

Obviously you are not praying hard enough Chris. I'm still in exactly the same situational crisis ive been in for years. One of the two of you has to be lacking in some way, and I'm guessing its not Jesus.

VCURamFan
11-19-2009, 07:23 PM
Be Holy Because I am Holy

okay Chris...why are you not Holy?

We've already shown scripture in perfect context that says that just because you are a Christian does not mean you will stop sinning, even though you try.

Its over Chris. Its people like you that give Christianity a bad name. Your like some nasty modern day Christian Pharasee.

Obviously you are not praying hard enough Chris. I'm still in exactly the same situational crisis ive been in for years. One of the two of you has to be lacking in some way, and I'm guessing its not Jesus.
Just to make a quick insertion here, Dave: Holy does not mean "sinless" or "Perfect" or "blameless". Holy simply means "set apart for God". As soon as you profess faith in Christ, you are, by definition, set apart for God & therefore are holy. Chris would be and moron if he tried to claim he is sinless or perfect, but just as much a fool if he didn't think he was holy.

Tyburn
11-19-2009, 07:41 PM
Just to make a quick insertion here, Dave: Holy does not mean "sinless" or "Perfect" or "blameless". Holy simply means "set apart for God". As soon as you profess faith in Christ, you are, by definition, set apart for God & therefore are holy. Chris would be and moron if he tried to claim he is sinless or perfect, but just as much a fool if he didn't think he was holy.

No it doesnt in the context given. That phrase is found time and time again during the issuing of the Old Testament Law. GOD is showing the Isrealities the Law of Perfection which they cant actually stick to. GOD is making a very similar point in demonstrating the gulf between them and himself...after all, he isnt "set apart" for himself is he :laugh:

No this is not a verb, a doing word, or a state of being, though no doubt you can apply that meaning in certain circumstances, this is adjective. Its being used to describe perfection in the context I gave.

We cant be perfect, we fall short whether Christian and saved, or not. Chris rattling on about "wilfully sinning" is arbitary

Chris F
11-21-2009, 02:58 AM
No it doesnt in the context given. That phrase is found time and time again during the issuing of the Old Testament Law. GOD is showing the Isrealities the Law of Perfection which they cant actually stick to. GOD is making a very similar point in demonstrating the gulf between them and himself...after all, he isnt "set apart" for himself is he :laugh:

No this is not a verb, a doing word, or a state of being, though no doubt you can apply that meaning in certain circumstances, this is adjective. Its being used to describe perfection in the context I gave.

We cant be perfect, we fall short whether Christian and saved, or not. Chris rattling on about "wilfully sinning" is arbitary

Dave maybe when you stop living for yourself and submit to God fully you will get out of your crisis. You have what the bible call the appearence of faith by deny the power thereof. Ramfan is right and you are not even quoteing the same verse any how. Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. The word Perfect (teleioi) in Greek comes from teloj, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. It was written in Greek Dave not English.

Tyburn
11-21-2009, 12:19 PM
Dave maybe when you stop living for yourself and submit to God fully you will get out of your crisis. You have what the bible call the appearence of faith by deny the power thereof. Ramfan is right and you are not even quoteing the same verse any how. Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. The word Perfect (teleioi) in Greek comes from teloj, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. It was written in Greek Dave not English.

My Quote came from the Old Testament Pastor Chris, the Old Testament was NOT written in Greek :rolleyes:

Maybe if you actually stopped posting and started Praying, I would be healed already :angry: I dont deny any power that GOD has...what I deny, is that that power can suddenly tranform an individual full of sin whilst on Earth. Sometimes it can, most of the time it does not.

Chris F
11-21-2009, 05:04 PM
My Quote came from the Old Testament Pastor Chris, the Old Testament was NOT written in Greek :rolleyes:

Maybe if you actually stopped posting and started Praying, I would be healed already :angry: I dont deny any power that GOD has...what I deny, is that that power can suddenly tranform an individual full of sin whilst on Earth. Sometimes it can, most of the time it does not.

Then why on earth did you say I was wrong if you were not even talking about the same thing. Dave you are a riot man. We can all pray till we are blue in the face but ultimately it is up to you not us. God will not bring you the peace you desire if you are not willing to give it ALL to him. You have to do more then worship him with your mouth. You want healing you need to fast and pray yourself until you get your break through.

Tyburn
11-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Then why on earth did you say I was wrong if you were not even talking about the same thing. Dave you are a riot man. We can all pray till we are blue in the face but ultimately it is up to you not us. God will not bring you the peace you desire if you are not willing to give it ALL to him. You have to do more then worship him with your mouth. You want healing you need to fast and pray yourself until you get your break through.

I didnt say you were wrong...I said that VCURamFans application of that particular meaning was missplaced to the old testament quote.

Dont you believe in the power of GOD through prayer Chris?? now look whose diminishing GODs power :blink:

I wonder what you think you could possible teach me about submission. :mellow: As for Fasting, I used to do that regularly at Saint Paul's Cathedral, it didnt work then, why should it work now :huh:...and I do pray myself, ceaslessly infact.

You mentioned the word "you/your" more then 12 times applicable to me. Im not sure its become apparent how I view myself, or why I view myself as I do. But I'll say its got more to do with Him then it has to do with me. I dont want "peace" from Him...I already have that....What I want is not to be offensive to Him :sad:

Chris F
11-21-2009, 06:11 PM
I didnt say you were wrong...I said that VCURamFans application of that particular meaning was missplaced to the old testament quote.

Dont you believe in the power of GOD through prayer Chris?? now look whose diminishing GODs power :blink:Yeah I do but I also know God will not force a person to change either

I wonder what you think you could possible teach me about submission. :mellow: As for Fasting, I used to do that regularly at Saint Paul's Cathedral, it didnt work then, why should it work now :huh:...and I do pray myself, ceaslessly infact. Well Jesus Commands us to fast so there is your problem you are in disobedience and thus the reason you can;t find peace.

You mentioned the word "you/your" more then 12 times applicable to me. Im not sure its become apparent how I view myself, or why I view myself as I do. But I'll say its got more to do with Him then it has to do with me. I dont want "peace" from Him...I already have that....What I want is not to be offensive to Him :sad:That is a good goal but if you want to be less offensive turn all your life over to him this includes your thought and deeds. Basically we all need to not play church but be the church

Comments in red above

Tyburn
11-21-2009, 06:23 PM
Comments in red above

So Jesus refuses to heal me because I dont fast :huh:

:laugh:

Now i've heard everything :rolleyes:

Has it ever occured to you that he doesnt want to heal me :huh: Perhaps I can be of more use to him exactly the way I am. :)

Chris F
11-21-2009, 06:39 PM
So Jesus refuses to heal me because I dont fast :huh:I did nto say that. I said your disobidence is holding you back. You can't possibly expect God to reward the rebellious do you?

:laugh:

Now i've heard everything :rolleyes:

Has it ever occured to you that he doesnt want to heal me :huh: Perhaps I can be of more use to him exactly the way I am. :) Yeah I can believe that, God used a donkey so he can use a rebellious Brit. :) or an argumentative American :laugh:

Fasting is commanded so if it is not part of your Christina walk you are keeping yourself from a lot of things Dave. The flesh must be brought under submission and this is exactly why people struggle heavily with the sin nature. Paul said he beat his body into submission daily. So instead of being snide search it out in scripture and try it with an obedient heart instead of a mere routine of life. Going through the motions never does anyone any good.

Tyburn
11-21-2009, 06:55 PM
Fasting is commanded so if it is not part of your Christina walk you are keeping yourself from a lot of things Dave. The flesh must be brought under submission and this is exactly why people struggle heavily with the sin nature. Paul said he beat his body into submission daily. So instead of being snide search it out in scripture and try it with an obedient heart instead of a mere routine of life. Going through the motions never does anyone any good.

Sooo your suggesting flaggilation aswell :huh: I admit I have never tried that, and its generally frowned upon now...although in times past it was a practised ritual by many. :unsure:

I'm not really rebellious at all. :)

Chris F
11-21-2009, 07:15 PM
Sooo your suggesting flaggilation aswell :huh: I admit I have never tried that, and its generally frowned upon now...although in times past it was a practised ritual by many. :unsure:

I'm not really rebellious at all. :)



Fasting is commanded in scripture flagellation is not. Apples and oranges Dave. Ritual can never be good in a relationship. To many Christinas and churches simply rely on their liturgy to satisfy an obligation they feel they have. God does not want your liturgy or obligation he wants your very being.

For the sake of arguement watch this and tell me what you would do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeu4lSMwCoc

We will never really know until it happens for real but if all you have is ritual then none of us would make the right choice.

Chris F
11-24-2009, 05:35 AM
Here is scripture to back my comment up Dave adn Play the man

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Play The Man
06-26-2010, 07:48 AM
http://www.newreformationpress.com/blog/nrp-freebies/the-gospel-for-those-broken-by-the-church/

This is a link to a talk entitled: "The Gospel For Those Broken By The Church". It is now free. It is directed at those people who have left the church because they are either "sad" or "mad" about their experience in church. Worth a listen, especially for those who have given up on Christianity because of a bad experience.

Tyburn
06-26-2010, 12:21 PM
Fasting is commanded in scripture flagellation is not. Apples and oranges Dave. Ritual can never be good in a relationship. To many Christinas and churches simply rely on their liturgy to satisfy an obligation they feel they have. God does not want your liturgy or obligation he wants your very being.

For the sake of arguement watch this and tell me what you would do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeu4lSMwCoc

We will never really know until it happens for real but if all you have is ritual then none of us would make the right choice.

Thats Bollox. You CHOOSE first Duty and then comes Love of that Duty...you dont simply just love, if you did with emotion it would soon fade. We are at War, sometimes when one doesnt want to get out of bed and go to Church, or want to be arsed reading a scripture...you have to force yourself to do it. That is called Duty, Duty is made up of Rituals and Cycles that ensure everything that needs to get done, does so. If you decided and dedicate yourself, your duty will become a labour of Love also. But Duty underlines the times when you dont feel like loving.

And so Ritual and Duty, and a labour of Love actually do help a relationship

I'll give you an Example. Every Monday when she is not working, I meet my Mother for a coffee. We meet at the same place, at the same time, go to the same teashop and drink the same drink. That is a ritual and it has enhanced our relationship by giving us time each week just to talk.

Once a month I meet my Father and we travel to a different pub (niether of us drink, so we just order two cokes and two bags of crisps :laugh: ) when we got to our year, My Father was so chuffed he said we should celebrate and we went out of a meal. (my relationship with him has not always been easy)

Here is a third Ritual...Every lunch time I come home from work and turn on the computer, and the first thing I do is listen to the Bible study of the day. If I find important information I write it down, if I find quotes I like I copy them to a word file.

Rituals, are simply scheduals, they are good because they make sure that everything that really should get done, needs to get done. Other wise the danger is you only do what you like and want...and not anything else...and that CAN be damaging to relationships. :)

But I'm still not interested in flaggilation, I promise :laugh:

donaldbreland
06-26-2010, 05:23 PM
The best way to assure you are saved without a single doubt is 1 John chapters 2 and 3. If the Holy Spirit led you to repentance and you forsook your old man to follow the Lordship of Jesus Christ then you can rest assure in your salvation. Just pray the God reveals anything in your life that may be a hindrance and turn it over to him and I bet you will know for sure then. We all commit sin everyday, the difference is do we repent which is to say turn from and stop doing it. Misdeeds will happen in a fallen world. We just have to refrain from thumbing them in God's face if you know what I mean.

Remind me what I said and I may remember which scripture I posted.

Chris you know I agree with your views a lot but help me if I am wrong on this. Paul was considered a good Christian right? Yet he never confessed his sins to Jesus. Not once can you show me this in the bible. In Acts chapters 6-8 it speaks of how he was convicted of accessory to murder and then in Chapter 9 he got saved. He never confessed his sins. So in Romans chapter 10 vs 8-9 It speaks this.

8But what does it say? "(K)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

donaldbreland
06-26-2010, 05:36 PM
Then why on earth did you say I was wrong if you were not even talking about the same thing. Dave you are a riot man. We can all pray till we are blue in the face but ultimately it is up to you not us. God will not bring you the peace you desire if you are not willing to give it ALL to him. You have to do more then worship him with your mouth. You want healing you need to fast and pray yourself until you get your break through.

Chris this is another wrong. You do not have to work for Gods love. Fasting isn't for Gods benefit but for your benefit. You do need to fast but it isn't because you want God to love you more. In fact God can't love you any more than he loves you now. You do these things for the love of God not because you want something. You do these things because you want to prove your love to God. You want to let him know that no matter what happens on this earth you will obey his Word. Too many people on here are going back to legalism Jesus died on the cross because NO MAN could ever live by the Law of Moses and make into Heaven. People assume that the law of Moses was only based about the 10 commandments but there were tons of laws in the Old Testament. If you want to live by these that's fine but you're setting yourself of for Failure. You just need to Obey Jesus and if you feel guilty about something then don;t do it. It's that simple. Guilt is Gods word or feeling for No.
Just like when you give to someone. If you're doing it out of guilt then don;t give. Do it out of Love. So if you Love doing wrong or whatever then you know that it's the Devil telling you to do it and not God. So guess what just don't do it. It's really that easy.