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Mark
10-20-2009, 03:49 AM
What do you think?

MattHughesRocks
10-20-2009, 03:58 AM
And off we go...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e292/skysrock/Smileys/smiley2eatingpopcorn.gif

NateR
10-20-2009, 03:58 AM
What do you think?

With his stand on abortion, I would be inclined to say "no way."

Mac
10-20-2009, 04:11 AM
You tell me .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0NiEWifVt8


And no , i truly dont believe he is.

donaldbreland
10-20-2009, 05:09 AM
There is no way he could rightfully be even considered a christian. What is a Christian?
Here is the definition:
Chris·tian (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Thats what the online dictionary says.

This is what I believe Christian means:
I believe being a Christian means more than going to church and saying amen. Being a Christian means loving your neighbor or enemy if you know them or not. Being a Christian means remembering what Jesus did for us and to forever remember his life long plan and following it and adding it into our daily lives. Being a Christian means if you see someone in need give it to them no matter what and trust in the Lord and believe God will not let you suffer from doing without what you gave. Being a Christian means to put your life on the line for your brothers and sisters and I mean earthly brothers and sisters. being a Christian mean giving your life solely to God and worshipping him when you have other things to do. Make time for our creator and thank him every day and night and sing to him before you go to bed. let him know you love him. Being a Christian means doing all of this and expect nothing in return because nothing is owed to you. God says he will take care of you but you have to do what's right and put your trust in him.

Sorry for going there. Now back on the subject. There is no way he can be by going to a church like he went to for 20 years. God isn't racist. He loves us and wants us to do whats right. Obama is filled with greed and is taking our Country into a hole that we as believers of God know that God is going to bring us out of. If Obama was a Christian his first thing he would've done is bring God back into our schools. WE NEED GOD IN OUR SCHOOLS NOW!!!!!!!!! We need to bring God back into our lives.

VCURamFan
10-20-2009, 05:12 AM
No, I don't think so. If the only church he's attended for 20+yrs is Rev. Wright's, I don't know where he could have heard the Gospel.

adamt
10-20-2009, 12:59 PM
when he refers to the quran as the "holy quran" then no, absolutely not a christian...


oh and saying his mother is in heaven because she was a good, decent person, just not a believer, really tells you he doesn't know much about christianity

adamt
10-20-2009, 01:12 PM
With his stand on abortion, I would be inclined to say "no way."

come on now nate..... that's above his pay grade.........

Vizion
10-20-2009, 02:10 PM
NO WAY

rearnakedchoke
10-20-2009, 02:33 PM
I would think he is ... but i am not one to judge .. i leave that to the Almighty ...

CAVEMAN
10-20-2009, 03:01 PM
I would say the man certainly does not bare the fruits of the Spirit. Has he ever said he was a Christian?

Crisco
10-20-2009, 04:22 PM
Anyone who shows such reverance for islam doesnt make a good case at being Christian.

The short answer is no. He is not.

Vizion
10-20-2009, 05:52 PM
I would think he is ... but i am not one to judge .. i leave that to the Almighty ... I think the Almighty made it quite clear when he inspired these verse, do you agree?

1 John 3:24b-4:6

And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater that he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

rearnakedchoke
10-20-2009, 06:45 PM
I think the Almighty made it quite clear when he inspired these verse, do you agree?

1 John 3:24b-4:6

And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater that he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


But doesn't in Luke 6:35 or so tell us not to judge? but i always get told i am reading it wrong, so i guess that will happen here ... is it not the Almighty who will judge in the end? you can change the thread of this title to any politician or celebrity and there can be great debate .. not everyone is going to have the same thoughts, but that is why i don't bother judging ..

Maglorius
10-20-2009, 06:49 PM
I just heard the speech he gave to the Gay community and by his comments he is definitely not a Christ follower. James White did a little rebuttle to his speech you can watch on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Azd9DByT5w

Crisco
10-20-2009, 07:33 PM
But doesn't in Luke 6:35 or so tell us not to judge? but i always get told i am reading it wrong, so i guess that will happen here ... is it not the Almighty who will judge in the end? you can change the thread of this title to any politician or celebrity and there can be great debate .. not everyone is going to have the same thoughts, but that is why i don't bother judging ..

Of course it is God who will be the final judge.

No one here is trying to take the place of God. If you look at his actions and his beliefs they are often in conflict with the Christian faith.

He may be Christian along the catholic way of thinking or perhaps he is an agnostic with a Christian background.

OBama strikes me as someone who believes in God but is not sure how or why. He was brought up both Muslim and Christian and then indoctrinated into the Liberal movement.

So If I had to guess he is very much confused.

NateR
10-20-2009, 07:37 PM
But doesn't in Luke 6:35 or so tell us not to judge? but i always get told i am reading it wrong, so i guess that will happen here ... is it not the Almighty who will judge in the end? you can change the thread of this title to any politician or celebrity and there can be great debate .. not everyone is going to have the same thoughts, but that is why i don't bother judging ..

Well, if Obama wasn't claiming to be a Christian then we wouldn't be able to judge him. However, since he does state that he is a Christian, then we (as fellow Christians) are required to test the fruits of his faith to determine if he really is a brother in Christ or a deceiver.

So, if Obama doesn't want Christians judging him, then he needs to stop claiming to be a Christian.

rockdawg21
10-20-2009, 08:03 PM
He's a Liberal correct? No, he's not a Christian. :laugh:

Shoots like a girl
10-20-2009, 08:14 PM
We can state what we think all day long, but heres what I know.....

Barak Obama not only supports pro-choice but upholds the killing of babies who survive abortion. I cant imagine a man of God leaving God out of the miracle of creation. Everything in my soul tells me that this man is NOT a christian, I believe that he only to claims to be so when he feels it nessesary. I dont feel that christian is something you are, rather something you live.

As you are watching this video keep in mind that this is our commander in chief and our Noble Peace Prize Winner. :sad:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYRpIf2F9NA

Tyburn
10-20-2009, 10:29 PM
What do you think?

If he is, he will be increadibly low church, and extremely liberal. He certainly isnt part of the Christian Right Wing which has dominated Washington since "the New America for the 21st Century" lobbiest moved into the White House.

He's not a Neo-Conservative. Plenty of Liberal Christians are what you would call pro-choice. That doesnt mean they always support abortion, it means they believe the Mother has to make her own choice and live by the consequences...and yes there are some Liberals who more or less accept homosexuals. They claim to be, and are largely excepted as part of the Established Church...I wouldnt like to comment on the Salvation of those though

I think however, that if he isnt Christian, then he definately isnt Islamic as some people have tried to make out. :laugh: He appears to be at heart a negotiator, and he certainly blames the actions of the Christian Right for damaging United States Foreign Relations with just about everyone apart from The United Kingdom :laugh: This makes it look like he is comprimising on his own faith...but you have to remember, that alot of the Christians on this board, and certainly the former political administration were about Extreme as Christians come outside of a warzone (and they were like that along time before they went to war, before anyone wants to talk about 9/11 they ought to research what the people were writing YEARS before that) So what you have is two opposite polls on the Christian Section, an The Extreme Right, and the Extreme Liberal.

Crisco
10-20-2009, 10:41 PM
If he is, he will be increadibly low church, and extremely liberal. He certainly isnt part of the Christian Right Wing which has dominated Washington since "the New America for the 21st Century" lobbiest moved into the White House.

He's not a Neo-Conservative. Plenty of Liberal Christians are what you would call pro-choice. That doesnt mean they always support abortion, it means they believe the Mother has to make her own choice and live by the consequences...and yes there are some Liberals who more or less accept homosexuals. They claim to be, and are largely excepted as part of the Established Church...I wouldnt like to comment on the Salvation of those though

I think however, that if he isnt Christian, then he definately isnt Islamic as some people have tried to make out. :laugh: He appears to be at heart a negotiator, and he certainly blames the actions of the Christian Right for damaging United States Foreign Relations with just about everyone apart from The United Kingdom :laugh: This makes it look like he is comprimising on his own faith...but you have to remember, that alot of the Christians on this board, and certainly the former political administration were about Extreme as Christians come outside of a warzone (and they were like that along time before they went to war, before anyone wants to talk about 9/11 they ought to research what the people were writing YEARS before that) So what you have is two opposite polls on the Christian Section, an The Extreme Right, and the Extreme Liberal.

Seems like you rambled a bit in that post Dave. I'm not sure you can be extremely liberal and be Christian. It doesn't work like that.

Obama is not a muslime for sure because he is pro-choice. A muslim would never support abortion. Killing their daughter after they are born for showing her ankle is a different story though.

Crisco
10-20-2009, 10:42 PM
as play the man put it Obama would be Moralistic, Therapeutic Deist

Jonlion
10-20-2009, 11:45 PM
I just heard the speech he gave to the Gay community and by his comments he is definitely not a Christ follower. James White did a little rebuttle to his speech you can watch on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Azd9DByT5w

Listened to half of that James White thing, quite good.

I have to say, I don't think Obama means a word of what he says, to him, its pandering to a certain crowd. Which is really sad. I'm sure Obama would be just as happy if his daughter was gay over straight.

The thing is we cannot hate on homosexuals, it is a sin as much as my pride is a sin, as much as idolatry. So there sin is equal to any of ours. It is our role to try and show them to come to the lord.

Tyburn
10-21-2009, 12:05 AM
Seems like you rambled a bit in that post Dave. I'm not sure you can be extremely liberal and be Christian. It doesn't work like that.

Obama is not a muslime for sure because he is pro-choice. A muslim would never support abortion. Killing their daughter after they are born for showing her ankle is a different story though.

Well I am...I didnt ramble at all...I was asked a question and I answered. The reason Obama doesnt look like a Christian is because of the distance between him and the Christian Right....you understand what that is dont you?...you understand that most of the Christian World is not as...extreme...that doesnt automatically mean they are heathen...but then alot of people on here will dissagree because they are akin to the Christian Right themselves

Obama is appologising because he thinks the Right overstept its mark in foreign policy, not because he doesnt believe in GOD possibly. The idea of the Right wing is that they usually impose their beliefs whatever they are...it can get dangerous. Now. I personally dont think the United States did over step the mark...which probably shows that Obama is even more liberal then I :laugh:

Right...as in Nationalistic. Despite not having church and state connected, the writings of the New America for the twentyfirst century are as much religious as they are political...that is a part of what and who they are, they are Christians, and you either believe the same as them...or you are against them. In many ways, your country HAS just seen a huge flash back in Administration certainly.

Dont mess with Condi Rice, or she will...evangelize you :ninja: :laugh:

Obama simply isnt that hardcore...it doesnt mean he's not a christian, your ideal of a Christian if its in line with the last Republican Administration is Extremist Christianity...now I happen to believe its very admirable...but it is not akin to the majority of practising Christians...thats just...fact...thats WHY America is the last vestege of Christianity.

Now the argument really should be,....do you NEED a Christian Right President...because....No Barack Obama is not Christian Right...not nearly. I'm torn as to whether I aggree with that. The Christian in me says yes...the European in me says...get the wrong man and you have instant dictatorship...think if Chris F became President... :laugh: or MacT....do you remember him :huh: Imagine them forming a cabinate :unsure:

Crisco
10-21-2009, 12:27 AM
Well I am...I didnt ramble at all...I was asked a question and I answered. The reason Obama doesnt look like a Christian is because of the distance between him and the Christian Right....you understand what that is dont you?...you understand that most of the Christian World is not as...extreme...that doesnt automatically mean they are heathen...but then alot of people on here will dissagree because they are akin to the Christian Right themselves

Obama is appologising because he thinks the Right overstept its mark in foreign policy, not because he doesnt believe in GOD possibly. The idea of the Right wing is that they usually impose their beliefs whatever they are...it can get dangerous. Now. I personally dont think the United States did over step the mark...which probably shows that Obama is even more liberal then I :laugh:

Right...as in Nationalistic. Despite not having church and state connected, the writings of the New America for the twentyfirst century are as much religious as they are political...that is a part of what and who they are, they are Christians, and you either believe the same as them...or you are against them. In many ways, your country HAS just seen a huge flash back in Administration certainly.

Dont mess with Condi Rice, or she will...evangelize you :ninja: :laugh:

Obama simply isnt that hardcore...it doesnt mean he's not a christian, your ideal of a Christian if its in line with the last Republican Administration is Extremist Christianity...now I happen to believe its very admirable...but it is not akin to the majority of practising Christians...thats just...fact...thats WHY America is the last vestege of Christianity.

Now the argument really should be,....do you NEED a Christian Right President...because....No Barack Obama is not Christian Right...not nearly. I'm torn as to whether I aggree with that. The Christian in me says yes...the European in me says...get the wrong man and you have instant dictatorship...think if Chris F became President... :laugh: or MacT....do you remember him :huh: Imagine them forming a cabinate :unsure:

If you don't attempt to follow the bible and put Christ above all things then how are you a Christian is what I'm trying to say Dave.

I don't need a right wing Christian president infact I don't think religion should play a large role in politics except for being aware of the dangers of allowing Islam to take a foothold.

If Obama didn't profess to being a Christian I wouldn't care whether he was or not. He should call himself agnostic.

Tyburn
10-21-2009, 12:37 AM
If you don't attempt to follow the bible and put Christ above all things then how are you a Christian is what I'm trying to say Dave.

I don't need a right wing Christian president infact I don't think religion should play a large role in politics except for being aware of the dangers of allowing Islam to take a foothold.

If Obama didn't profess to being a Christian I wouldn't care whether he was or not. He should call himself agnostic.

Has any US President ever been anything but Christian? I mean...said they were anything but Christian?

Obama loves words...perhaps it was nothing more then a tick box on the road to being ellected?

I dont know if he's Christian or not, I dont think we should judge him to harshly, because IF he is a Christian, then he is certainly at the Liberal end of the spectrum...thats the only point I was trying to make

sorry :unsure-1:

Vizion
10-21-2009, 12:48 AM
I dont know if he's Christian or not, I dont think we should judge him to harshly, because IF he is a Christian, then he is certainly at the Liberal end of the spectrum...thats the only point I was trying to make

sorry :unsure-1: Liberal end? It's pretty black and white yes? Does a man who supports the MURDER of innocent babies (see: Obama's opposition to the Partial Birth Abortion Ban) reflect the spirit of Christ?

Chuck
10-21-2009, 12:57 AM
Well, if Obama wasn't claiming to be a Christian then we wouldn't be able to judge him. However, since he does state that he is a Christian, then we (as fellow Christians) are required to test the fruits of his faith to determine if he really is a brother in Christ or a deceiver.

So, if Obama doesn't want Christians judging him, then he needs to stop claiming to be a Christian.

I don't think that is accurate interpretation of scripture Nate. In fact I think that statement actually contradicts scripture.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For [the LORD] does not [see] as man sees; [fn] for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Accepting Christ is a decision within ones heart that truly only God can see. I think we can look at his fruit and gauge how effective his walk is but not the presence or absence of one. An apple tree that isn't producing fruit is still an apple tree. Perhaps a sick apple tree or an ineffective apple tree but it's still an apple tree.

I believe the scripture that encourages us to "test the spirits" is speaking to prophets and teachers. It's purpose is to enable us to discern a false prophet but I don't believe we're to carry that over to a regular believers walk with Christ. Obama isn't presenting doctrine or theology in the name of Christ. His actions aren't very Christlike at times but neither are mine.

I borrowed this from another website but I feel it's relevant here....

I used to tell my children that there could be a man seen praying in a church but within he is NOT praying but railing against God. Then there could be a man lying in the gutter drunk but calling out to his Father in heaven to forgive him. There might be a woman who is heard cussing now and then but inwardly she cringes each time and begs forgiveness as she battles to be the person she longs to be. And yet there is another woman who speaks kindly to others while inside she is hurling insults at them.

I'm wondering how you would be able to discern the difference between a "bad" Christian and a deceiver?

I don't think it's wrong for people to state an opinion (I don't think Obama is a Christian) but I do disagree when people state it as fact (Obama is not a Christian).

And this certainly isn't about Obama... I don't know if the man is saved or not.. if he IS a believer I think he has a lot to repent of but possibly no more then some Christians on this board, myself included.

What are your thoughts?

bradwright
10-21-2009, 01:12 AM
did he say he is a Christian ?
if he did maybe he doesn't understand the meaning of the word or he just doesn't take it literally....maybe he is more like me and believes in God but isn't a true Christian...i didn't realize the word had such a singular meaning before i became a member of this forum....and although i kinda like him if i had to judge him on the criteria that has been set forth in this forum then i would have to say no...he is not a Christian,but you know what ? after being on these forums for a while i have come to realize i may not be a Christian either so i'm okay with the fact that he may not be as well.

que
10-21-2009, 01:14 AM
if he believes that the lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for his sins then yes he is a christian. but no one knows if he truly believes that except for him and God

so basically, i dunno

Black Mamba
10-21-2009, 02:10 AM
if he believes that the lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for his sins then yes he is a christian. but no one knows if he truly believes that except for him and God

so basically, i dunno

Exactly my thoughts.

I don't think it's anyone's place except God to judge a person's faith. Some of us are closer to God then others. Some of us are still working on putting God in the driver seat. Some of us need more work than others. If indeed, Obama is a Christian, then as my name implies, "God is my judge." Ultimately, he'll have to answer to God for his actions.

Mark
10-21-2009, 02:26 AM
Exactly my thoughts.

I don't think it's anyone's place except God to judge a person's faith. Some of us are closer to God then others. Some of us are still working on putting God in the driver seat. Some of us need more work than others. If indeed, Obama is a Christian, then as my name implies, "God is my judge." Ultimately, he'll have to answer to God for his actions.

I do think that if you say you are a christian than you put yourself at a higher standard.

Chuck
10-21-2009, 02:32 AM
I do think that if you say you are a christian than you put yourself at a higher standard.

What do you mean brother?

Mark
10-21-2009, 02:34 AM
Exactly my thoughts.

I don't think it's anyone's place except God to judge a person's faith. Some of us are closer to God then others. Some of us are still working on putting God in the driver seat. Some of us need more work than others. If indeed, Obama is a Christian, then as my name implies, "God is my judge." Ultimately, he'll have to answer to God for his actions.

If we are to follow God's commands such as:
"... you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you" (1 Cor. 5:11-13);
"Test everything. Hold on to the good" (1 Thess. 5:21);
"Hate what is evil; cling to what is good" (Rom. 12:9) and
"...watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them" (Rom. 16:17),
then the question isn't "Should we judge?" but "What do we judge?"

Mark
10-21-2009, 02:36 AM
What do you mean brother?

You are telling everyone you want to be more like jesus. Yes we all sin, but you are trying not to.

NateR
10-21-2009, 02:39 AM
then the question isn't "Should we judge?" but "What do we judge?"

I would say that any Christian politician who can successfully separate his Christian morals and beliefs from his political career is probably NOT a true Christian.

Eric4
10-21-2009, 02:47 AM
I would say that any Christian politician who can successfully separate his Christian morals and beliefs from his political career is probably NOT a true Christian.

Is this why every time I go to the Voter's Booth I think I don't want to vote for anyone? :unsure:

Our government is so messed up we end up choosing the lesser of two evils and the people we wish would lead us are unwilling to be associated or involved in the garbage! :angry:

Chuck
10-21-2009, 02:50 AM
You are telling everyone you want to be more like jesus. Yes we all sin, but you are trying not to.

Gotcha!

J.B.
10-21-2009, 03:34 AM
I would say that any Christian politician who can successfully separate his Christian morals and beliefs from his political career is probably NOT a true Christian.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/f/f9/FactCat.png

donaldbreland
10-21-2009, 03:39 AM
If I went to his church (rev wrights) for 20 years then there is no way in heck he can or anyone in that church be a Christian. He may call himself a Christian but I too can call myself what I want to be called. God is not a religion. God is love.
Christianity isn't a Religion, it is a lifestyle, So live it.
I have not the right to judge him but I believe there is no way he could be a Christian. In fact the only true Presidential candidate we had in this past election was Mike Huckabee. I only know what I read about Obama and the people he has put in Office are corrupt people who want to make our country like China. That I am scared for. Did you hear what the White House Communications Director Anita Dunn said. She said she looks up to gen mao of china. WOW. Here is the source. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiBDpL2dExY. I Love God and accept him. I believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin. I also believe he resurrected and will again return to save us again. He put us on this earth to take care of it. He gives us the chance to make the right choice. You know how I know this. Because you actually know what your doing the minute before you do wrong. So make a dang better choice and stop worrying about the democrats or the Republicans or if he is a liberal or a conservative, because we can all call ourselves what we want to be called. Live and lead by example and make others see what your doing is good without asking or looking for praise. Do it because you love your enemies and your neighbors. Do it because your American.

NateR
10-21-2009, 04:07 AM
Did you hear what the White House Communications Director Anita Dunn said. She said she looks up to gen mao of china. WOW. Here is the source. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiBDpL2dExY.

This is just more evidence of the disgusting moral relativism of Liberal Democrats today.

donaldbreland
10-21-2009, 04:07 AM
This is an article I found:
Here is the source:
http://mwindulambewe.blogspot.com/2009/05/is-obama-christian_18.html

18
May
Is Obama A Christian?
Mwindula Mbewe

You have to grant it to him, Obama is a most excellent orator. To put it in the words of a former pastor, now lecturer and faculty member of a seminary on the Copperbelt, "You can't just help but like the guy." It is very true, I heard a speech by him were he speaks to graduates at a University in Arizona, USA. I got really inspired. He was basically encouraging the "graduating class of 09" to seek to serve others in all their future endeavors, rather than themselves. He didn't quote a single verse in the bible and yet I walked away feeling like I had heard a moving sermon!



Anyway, great oration doesn't get you a spot in the Lambs book of life, so, is this man actually a Christian? My interest in discovering his state before God was inspired by a comment I got on an article I wrote about Obama, about 24 hours before his inauguration. It was a negative article. I wasn't necessarily shooting the man down, I was simply appealing to anyone who would read, especially Christians, not to envy Obama because of his achievement because firstly, what good is it for a man to gain the whole world but in the end, to lose his soul. Secondly, I sought to encourage believers to admire men who achieve much for God's kingdom rather than those who achieve much in this mortal world. That makes those men who have given their lives to serving God, the ones who must be admired and envied above all others because it is that kind of achievement that will count on the last day. You can read that article by clicking here, and you can read the comment that inspired this article below that article.



Now then, is Obama a Christian? In this article I present to you nothing but actual quotes from Obama himself and leave it to you to decide. Each quotation has a link to its source indicated against the quote by a number in brackets. At the bottom you will find against the number the name of the source, simply click on the numbers to view the desired source. The quotes are taken from either videos of Obama or transcripts of interviews.





THE EVIDENCE FOR


Obama has publicly said that he is, infact, a Christian. He has been called a Muslim but says that while he respects Islam, he is not a Muslim (by the way, I do not respect Islam). Obama on being a Christian:


"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful. I didn't 'fall out in church' as they say, but there was a very strong awakening in me of the importance of these issues in my life. I didn't want to walk alone on this journey. Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals."(1)




Obama believes that America's greatest moral failure has been a failure to follow the fact that whatever is done for the least, is done for Jesus Christ as found in Matthew 25:40, he says:



"I think America’s greatest moral failure in my lifetime has been that we still don’t abide by that basic precept in Matthew that whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me, and that notion of — that basic principle applies to poverty. It applies to racism and sexism. It applies to, you know, not having — not thinking about providing ladders of opportunity for people to get into the middle class. There’s a pervasive sense, I think, that this country, as wealthy and powerful as we are, still don’t spend enough time thinking about the least of us."(2)




Obama says he became a Christian in 1985 when...well, why don't I just use his own words, here is President Obama's testimony:



"...So one Sunday, I put on one of the few clean jackets I had, and went over to Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street on the South Side of Chicago. And I heard Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright deliver a sermon called "The Audacity of Hope." And during the course of that sermon, he introduced me to someone named Jesus Christ. I learned that my sins could be redeemed. I learned that those things I was too weak to accomplish myself, He would accomplish with me if I placed my trust in Him. And in time, I came to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death, but rather as an active, palpable agent in the world and in my own life. It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church, as folks sometimes do. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. The skeptical bent of my mind didn't suddenly vanish. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth and carrying out His works..."(3)




Here are a few comments by people who've read this account. By the way, you can click on the link (number) above to read the full testimony.


"For Obama to stand up and talk about how Jesus changed his life, my friends that takes guts. You may disagree with everything he’s about, you may disagree with his policy goals but as Christians, shouldn’t we like it when someone talks about Christ being the missing ingredient in his life?"
-A Mr. David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network



"I found this statement breathtaking and refreshing in its straightforwardness."
-A Mr. D. Pulliam






THE EVIDENCE AGAINST


Obama is pretty sure that his mother, who died a non-believer, is in heaven. He says his late mother was the kindest, most descent and generous person he ever knew. While she was not "A believer like I am", he says, "I'm sure she is in heaven".(4)



Obama, in response to those who thought that America's public policy should be guided by the bible, said:



*"Which passages of scripture, should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus which suggests that slavery is ok?... Or, we could go with Deuteronomy which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the sermon on the mount, a passage that is so radical, that its doubtful that our own defence department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, lets read our bibles now. [Some] folks havn't been reading their bible."(5)




Obama feels that the standard of the bible, and of God therefore, cannot be used to govern a nation because not everyone in America, for example, is a believer. It is on that premise that he is pro-choice (supports making abortion legal) rather than pro-life (those who want to make abortion illegal). Although, he does clarify his position saying that while he is pro-choice, he is not pro-abortion(6). Neither is he a supporter of homosexuality although he feels that homosexuals are born with their sexual orientation and that they too, like heterosexuals, have rights and should therefore be free to live normal lives(7).



Obama feels that while he is a believer, he should not superimpose his beliefs on non-believers(8). Also, he does not seem to believe in the inerrancy of scripture as he is quoted saying, that some evangelicals believe in the inerrancy of scripture, in a sorta negative tone and context(8).



Link (8) is a video, on youtube, with whose uploader's words I will end this article with, he writes:



"I usually don't upload other videos and post them (thanks YOISM.org), but
this video was too good to pass up. It reinforces why I love this candidate. Finally someone eloquent who really gets it!!! He admits some of the inanities in the bible and the illogic. He admits that faith is illogical and imperfect. He lays out why religion should stay out of government. He's for civil unions and not marriage, but... eh... criticizing that is like not driving the Lamborghini because it only gets 9 miles per gallon. It's my assertion that Obama is either a closet atheist only in religion for political reasons (Yeah hypocritical, the Lamborghini doesn't have any cup holders either) or he's one of the last and most sane Christian I could ever hope to meet. Enjoy. "



If Obama is a true believer, the words of this guy I've just quoted would cripple him. Its one thing for people to be unable to tell whether you are a believer or not but it is quite another for people to reject your faith because of what you, yourself, are saying about it.



Is Obama a Christian, you have the necessary information now-you decide. I rarely get any comments at all, but if you read this, do weigh the evidence for and the evidence against and based on them leave me a comment specifying whether or not you think Obama is saved.

donaldbreland
10-21-2009, 04:18 AM
Please take time and read this as well.

http://www.thirty-thousand.org/pages/Saddleback_16AUG2008.htm#wise

donaldbreland
10-21-2009, 04:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Kh-xzerjE&feature=related

NateR
10-21-2009, 04:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Kh-xzerjE&feature=related

I don't really see any way that this man could be a Christian.

donaldbreland
10-21-2009, 04:52 AM
My grandma used to say the proof is in the pudding. Well the ingredient left out in his pudding is Christianity.

Obama states this:

Obama says he became a Christian in 1985 when...well, why don't I just use his own words, here is President Obama's testimony:



"...So one Sunday, I put on one of the few clean jackets I had, and went over to Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street on the South Side of Chicago. And I heard Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright deliver a sermon called "The Audacity of Hope." And during the course of that sermon, he introduced me to someone named Jesus Christ. I learned that my sins could be redeemed. I learned that those things I was too weak to accomplish myself, He would accomplish with me if I placed my trust in Him. And in time, I came to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death, but rather as an active, palpable agent in the world and in my own life. It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church, as folks sometimes do. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. The skeptical bent of my mind didn't suddenly vanish. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth and carrying out His works..."(3)

Now his same preacher that gave that sermon says this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNTGRL0OJWQ&feature=related

There is the proof. Obama is a Racist.

Conrad
10-21-2009, 09:25 AM
But doesn't in Luke 6:35 or so tell us not to judge? but i always get told i am reading it wrong, so i guess that will happen here ... is it not the Almighty who will judge in the end? you can change the thread of this title to any politician or celebrity and there can be great debate .. not everyone is going to have the same thoughts, but that is why i don't bother judging ..

Good evening,

I rolled back to see this quote because the Judge passage is so often misunderstood. Caveman's comment with 1st John was great, as was another that escapes me. Others have said good things, but they escape me at the moment.

Emperor Crisco already noted that no one is trying to replace God here. That is the crux of the passage RNC cited. I'm not picking on you, RNC, but this is often left out of the discussion on that passage. The judging Jesus is talking about in the "Judge not lest ye be judged," quote is a condemnation judgment pronounced on others, as shown in the standard Jewish emphasis-by-repetition. The next sentence in the same verse is parallel, condemn not, etc. That means that one would be assuming God's place in that final judgment. However, God has told us what the standards and evidences are with the expectations to use that information. Also important...let's not remove the context. regardless of the spacing in one's bible, the thoughts flow logically. V37 on judging is on the heels of v36 about showing mercy. It is not merciful to leave a non-believer in his delusion. That's not mercy to let others fall into hell. We are to be merciful, understanding, in handling the error of non-belief in the-one-true-God-who-made-the-heavens-and-the-earth with others--not with the condemning attitude. We do have the information that all are condemned w/out Jesus and why.

Not-judging does not mean that we cannot USE judgment, that is, our evaluative capacity. In fact, we are supposed to. While elsewhere it says that the world will know believers by their love for one another (right on), we should also look at Matt 7 for how believers will recognize one another, by their fruit. Someone already mentioned fruit. So, biblically speaking, what is Obama's fruit? Does his output glorify God? The rest of the thread is full of examples of his regular, consistent fruits, which do not point to nor glorify God. As above, the proof is in the pudding, and that's biblical! Also, you can't get elected in this country without the lip service of claiming to be a Christian.

Now, while RNC asked a harmless question about this verse, elsewhere, the pattern out there is non-believers (regardless of their faith claims) abusing this particular verse to silence the Gospel or just justify sin. (That's no accusation towards RNC.) We can't let those who are opposed to God (and elevate man/self over God) tell us what to think about God.

Thanks for your time.

Tyburn
10-21-2009, 12:49 PM
I do think that if you say you are a christian than you put yourself at a higher standard.

No. By GODs Standard we are all held to EXACTLY the same level, its Perfection and we ALL fail.

The only difference is some of us will be granted a Royal Pardon, and some of us will not. We should focus MORE on Evangelism then judging each other, and we must remember, that no matter how WE judge, GOD judges us ALL christian or not....Just because you havent announced you want to try and live up to expectations, doesnt mean you should be let off the hook, and just because you announce you want to try and live up to expectations, but fail, doesnt mean you are worse then someone who never tried.

...we dont know if he's trying or not. Just because you dont see fruit, doesnt always mean its a case of mutton dressed as lamb...for all you know he might be going through a testing time...GOD maybe forcing growth upon him...and that doesnt usually mean the Christian looks fantastic UNTIL he has learned his lesson, whatever that maybe.

What exactly made you ask the question Mark?

Vizion
10-21-2009, 02:02 PM
I would say that any Christian politician who can successfully separate his Christian morals and beliefs from his political career is probably NOT a true Christian. QFT - we need me like YOU to run for office Nate.

J.B.
10-21-2009, 02:06 PM
No. By GODs Standard we are all held to EXACTLY the same level, its Perfection and we ALL fail.

The only difference is some of us will be granted a Royal Pardon, and some of us will not. We should focus MORE on Evangelism then judging each other, and we must remember, that no matter how WE judge, GOD judges us ALL christian or not....Just because you havent announced you want to try and live up to expectations, doesnt mean you should be let off the hook, and just because you announce you want to try and live up to expectations, but fail, doesnt mean you are worse then someone who never tried.

...we dont know if he's trying or not. Just because you dont see fruit, doesnt always mean its a case of mutton dressed as lamb...for all you know he might be going through a testing time...GOD maybe forcing growth upon him...and that doesnt usually mean the Christian looks fantastic UNTIL he has learned his lesson, whatever that maybe.

What exactly made you ask the question Mark?

I agree with you on this to some degree Dave. It's not always easy to judge a person's conviction or faith, some things are complicated. Ultimately it will only be God's judgment that matters.

Still, I think Mark poses a valid question, and I think it's fair for people to discuss it considering he is the President of the United States. He is a very powerful person in our society, and if he says he is a Christian, then I think it is fair for people to take a strong look at it and decide for themselves. Credibility (or the unrealistic expectation of it, lulz) is extremely important in the political realm, and making a person seem hypocritical for saying one thing and then doing another is a primary weapon in undermining said credibility (which they never had in the first place).

Personally, I am not sure what to say about Obama's faith, or lack thereof. I question a lot of his views, and I think a lot of it may just a be a political front to play up to the left, but I also don't agree with checking your morality at the door when entering politics. I'm not going to say he is NOT a Christian, but I will say I have some strong concerns about his views.

I also think that actions speak louder than words, and this....
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/f/f8/Obamahitscat.jpg/227px-Obamahitscat.jpg

is not a very Christian thing to do. :angry:

adamt
10-21-2009, 02:08 PM
No. By GODs Standard we are all held to EXACTLY the same level, its Perfection and we ALL fail.

The only difference is some of us will be granted a Royal Pardon, and some of us will not.

then it's not exactly the same is it..... if there is a difference it can't be the same


anyways.... if we were on the same level we would all be judged at the same court hearing, but I won't be at the great white throne... just the bema seat

two different standards......

Neezar
10-21-2009, 02:18 PM
then it's not exactly the same is it..... if there is a difference it can't be the same


....

It can in Dave's posts. Whole cultures have changed during Dave's posts. :laugh:

Neezar
10-21-2009, 02:19 PM
I agree with you on this to some degree Dave. It's not always easy to judge a person's conviction or faith, some things are complicated. Ultimately it will only be God's judgment that matters.

Still, I think Mark poses a valid question, and I think it's fair for people to discuss it considering he is the President of the United States. He is a very powerful person in our society, and if he says he is a Christian, then I think it is fair for people to take a strong look at it and decide for themselves. Credibility (or the unrealistic expectation of it, lulz) is extremely important in the political realm, and making a person seem hypocritical for saying one thing and then doing another is a primary weapon in undermining said credibility (which they never had in the first place).

Personally, I am not sure what to say about Obama's faith, or lack thereof. I question a lot of his views, and I think a lot of it may just a be a political front to play up to the left, but I also don't agree with checking your morality at the door when entering politics. I'm not going to say he is NOT a Christian, but I will say I have some strong concerns about his views.

I also think that actions speak louder than words, and this....
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/f/f8/Obamahitscat.jpg/227px-Obamahitscat.jpg

is not a very Christian thing to do. :angry:

Awesome post, all of it! :laugh:

adamt
10-21-2009, 03:41 PM
But doesn't in Luke 6:35 or so tell us not to judge? but i always get told i am reading it wrong, so i guess that will happen here ... is it not the Almighty who will judge in the end? you can change the thread of this title to any politician or celebrity and there can be great debate .. not everyone is going to have the same thoughts, but that is why i don't bother judging ..


keep reading that passage......
43"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

we're not judging.... we're recognizing. if I could send him to hell then i'd be "judging", because judging implies a judgment, no one here is capable of inflicting a judgement.

Maglorius
10-21-2009, 07:14 PM
I would agree with those here that believe as christians we can and are to judge those that claim to be our christian brothers but don't hold to the truths of the bible. How can one say he/she is a believer in Jesus yet not hold to the truths not only taught by Jesus but what the rest of scripture teaches. You cannot seperate the red letters from the bible and hold to them and at the same time disregard the rest of scripture as many do.

My personal example with judging a man as to his true nature comes from my experience with a minister in a United Church( that should give it all away). It was at my wife's grandfathers funeral and she read the passages from John 14:1-14. Well right after she got done reading the passage he came up and started ripping the passage apart. He began to tell everyone there that this is one nut that evangelicals have not been able to crack yet. That all you have to do is replace Jesus with love. So - Love is the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through love. When I heard this I honestly wanted to punch him in the throat. This man who claims to know God would twist Gods word and lie to everyone at the funeral. Most of whom did not know Jesus and now were further than ever. I openly rebuke this man and say without a doubt he is not christian but a wolf in sheeps clothing. You know what you do with wolves, you shoot them. I prefer a 25-06.

So as to Obama he claims to know Christ, but by his words and actions he completely disregards the teachings of scripture. The world twists the idea of love as acceptance and tolerance, but that is not true love at all.

Tyburn
10-21-2009, 09:27 PM
then it's not exactly the same is it..... if there is a difference it can't be the same


anyways.... if we were on the same level we would all be judged at the same court hearing, but I won't be at the great white throne... just the bema seat

two different standards......

it is the same, because the Royal Pardon isnt dependant on our works. In terms of true judgement, we just all fail, its a simple as that, and those of us saved, arent so because of our higher and less sinful standards.

so the only standard that matters is GODS...and Christian or not, we dont pass the test.

Tyburn
10-21-2009, 09:28 PM
It can in Dave's posts. Whole cultures have changed during Dave's posts. :laugh:

:angry: how would you know...you never even read my posts :cry:

:laugh:

Tyburn
10-21-2009, 09:29 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/f/f8/Obamahitscat.jpg/227px-Obamahitscat.jpg

is not a very Christian thing to do. :angry:

I dont know what just made me laugh more...this or, your avatar :laugh:

J.B.
10-21-2009, 10:03 PM
I dont know what just made me laugh more...this or, your avatar :laugh:

my avatar is Awesome, literally...thats his name

when I asked Awesome if he thought Obama was a Christian he simply replied...
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/3/31/Awesome_worried.jpg




but since this is an Obama thread I think Awesome needs some more flare...how bout this?

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/e/ec/Obamaawesome.gif

rearnakedchoke
10-21-2009, 10:21 PM
Good evening,

I rolled back to see this quote because the Judge passage is so often misunderstood. Caveman's comment with 1st John was great, as was another that escapes me. Others have said good things, but they escape me at the moment.

Emperor Crisco already noted that no one is trying to replace God here. That is the crux of the passage RNC cited. I'm not picking on you, RNC, but this is often left out of the discussion on that passage. The judging Jesus is talking about in the "Judge not lest ye be judged," quote is a condemnation judgment pronounced on others, as shown in the standard Jewish emphasis-by-repetition. The next sentence in the same verse is parallel, condemn not, etc. That means that one would be assuming God's place in that final judgment. However, God has told us what the standards and evidences are with the expectations to use that information. Also important...let's not remove the context. regardless of the spacing in one's bible, the thoughts flow logically. V37 on judging is on the heels of v36 about showing mercy. It is not merciful to leave a non-believer in his delusion. That's not mercy to let others fall into hell. We are to be merciful, understanding, in handling the error of non-belief in the-one-true-God-who-made-the-heavens-and-the-earth with others--not with the condemning attitude. We do have the information that all are condemned w/out Jesus and why.

Not-judging does not mean that we cannot USE judgment, that is, our evaluative capacity. In fact, we are supposed to. While elsewhere it says that the world will know believers by their love for one another (right on), we should also look at Matt 7 for how believers will recognize one another, by their fruit. Someone already mentioned fruit. So, biblically speaking, what is Obama's fruit? Does his output glorify God? The rest of the thread is full of examples of his regular, consistent fruits, which do not point to nor glorify God. As above, the proof is in the pudding, and that's biblical! Also, you can't get elected in this country without the lip service of claiming to be a Christian.

Now, while RNC asked a harmless question about this verse, elsewhere, the pattern out there is non-believers (regardless of their faith claims) abusing this particular verse to silence the Gospel or just justify sin. (That's no accusation towards RNC.) We can't let those who are opposed to God (and elevate man/self over God) tell us what to think about God.

Thanks for your time.

don't worry about it ... one thing i love about this place is the great debates, but what i like even better is the learning .. so keep it coming ... i never try to make myself out to be an expert, so any clarification i get is priceless ... i never feel picked on (unless it is about who i root for in the mma/ufc sections of here) and i have never felt any malice in the responses that I have gotten in the Christianity forum, so keep it coming ..

Chuck
10-21-2009, 10:30 PM
Well I'm guessing y'all either don't find me that interesting or just don't like what I have so say on this topic but I'm going to repeat what I said earlier... :D

Salvation is a matter of the heart and no man can see or judge another mans heart. God and God alone has that right and that ability. We can be fruit inspectors if you will but the presence or absence of Obama's fruit is not an evidence of his relationship with Christ. It's evidence of his level of commitment perhaps, his effectiveness or level of devotion to Christ but not the presence of a relationship with Christ. That's something only Obama and Christ know.

Is the "sin" of being pro choice or any of the other "evidence" some of you have presented somehow great then the sin in your own life?

The Bible teaches us that there is nobody righteous and that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

The sin you see in Obama is no greater then the sin in all of our lives. Is the person that struggles with an addiction a Christian? A thief? A robber? God forbid a rapist? Murderer? If we're not saved by our works then we can't have our salvation judged by them either.

For those of you that are convinced he's not a Christian I wonder how much time in earnest prayer you spend for his Salvation? :huh:

Tyburn
10-21-2009, 10:45 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/e/ec/Obamaawesome.gif


:laugh: now thats change we can believe in :laugh:

Mark
10-22-2009, 05:41 AM
it is the same, because the Royal Pardon isnt dependant on our works.

I think you are wrong. Our works is the only thing we are taking to heaven.

Rev. 20: 12 and 13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

donaldbreland
10-22-2009, 05:42 AM
If Obama is a Christian then why does he do what the Bible tells us not to do.
In Revelation 22: 18-21 this is what it says.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

This video is proof to me he is not a Christian. Although I am not God. Even Ray Charles could have see that Obama isn't a Christian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Kh-xzerjE&feature=related
A true Christian never says what he said in that speech. God doesn't see color.
Please tell me what you guys think? Don't deny what he says.

NateR
10-22-2009, 05:46 AM
For me the real evidence that Obama is not a Christian was during his acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention. He took verses out of the Bible that were about the hope that we have in Jesus Christ and used them to refer to himself. No true Christian would ever put themselves in the place of Christ.

donaldbreland
10-22-2009, 05:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jovq9j8cJSc&feature=fvw

donaldbreland
10-22-2009, 06:00 AM
Obama speaks of his Muslim Faith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18VOGykrgHo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C39Ln3ZKa9k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M&feature=related

I guess that says it all folks.

NateR
10-22-2009, 06:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jovq9j8cJSc&feature=fvw

Wow, that video just pisses me off. I'm starting to think that anyone who actually voted for Barack Obama needs to have their American citizenship revoked.

Chuck
10-22-2009, 06:24 AM
If Obama is a Christian then why does he do what the Bible tells us not to do.

My friend I'm not sure what world you live in but in the real world we ALL do what the Bible tell us not to do. It's called sin. And we're all full of it.

Why is Obama's salvation or lack of so important to you?

Are you a Christian?

Chuck
10-22-2009, 06:28 AM
Obama speaks of his Muslim Faith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18VOGykrgHo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C39Ln3ZKa9k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M&feature=related

I guess that says it all folks.

It says nothing and does nothing....

Three separate video's of the exact same slip of the tongue somehow proves something?

donaldbreland
10-22-2009, 06:35 AM
I was talking about how Obama took verses out of our Bible and discredited them in our Country. I am a Christian. I do not call myself anything other than that. I do my job to live by the Bible. However I am very new as I was Born Again on August 13th 2009. I do understand that we are full of sin but I believe we are not to just sit here and live our life like we can sin all we want because Jesus died on a cross to forgive us of our sins. We as Christians are to live life the best we can and by doing so we have try not and sin so much. Since I have became a Born Again Christian I have done my best to work on things about myself to make me a better person. This topic was about if he is a Christian. He stated that he was (Obama that is) and I showed proof that he wasn't. I speak only from sources. I will not speak on something I'm not sure of. Except the Bible because I am new. I will speak about and ask questions to people who know. Chuck I look up to you for your advice but quit defending a man who is of the same faith we are at war with. It is important in so many ways because look at what are country is about to face.

donaldbreland
10-22-2009, 06:37 AM
I would never slip up and say that I am Muslim if I know I am a Christian. That's almost like me slipping up and saying I'm a black man when I'm white. Dude he said it. LOOK AT HIS NAME. When have you ever heard a Christian Named Barrack Hussein Obama. Come on.

Jonlion
10-22-2009, 06:57 AM
I would never slip up and say that I am Muslim if I know I am a Christian. That's almost like me slipping up and saying I'm a black man when I'm white. Dude he said it. LOOK AT HIS NAME. When have you ever heard a Christian Named Barrack Hussein Obama. Come on.

I know of a Christian called Afshin Ziafat, and he is someone with an islamic name but who is a Christian.

Jonlion
10-22-2009, 06:58 AM
And the dude is awesome!

http://www.afshinziafat.com/about.php

Chuck
10-22-2009, 07:08 AM
I was talking about how Obama took verses out of our Bible and discredited them in our Country. I am a Christian. I do not call myself anything other than that. I do my job to live by the Bible. However I am very new as I was Born Again on August 13th 2009.
Praise God brother that's awesome!!!

I do understand that we are full of sin but I believe we are not to just sit here and live our life like we can sin all we want because Jesus died on a cross to forgive us of our sins. We as Christians are to live life the best we can and by doing so we have try not and sin so much.
I understand what you're saying here Donald but you're really missing the point.. We don't know Obama's heart. Maybe what we see IS him doing the best job he can? The same grace and compassion that Christ extended to you on August 13 you are called to extended to Obama.

Since I have became a Born Again Christian I have done my best to work on things about myself to make me a better person. This topic was about if he is a Christian. He stated that he was (Obama that is) and I showed proof that he wasn't.
Brother I love ya but you've done no such thing. You can't. The Bible is crystal clear on this issue. No man knows the condition of another mans heart. Only Christ has that right and only Christ has that ability. The very act of becoming a Christian is an act of faith... not an act of proof. How can you prove or disprove faith? We have the ability to judge the product of ones faith (fruit) but we can't discern the absence or presence of it. Think of faith like you would desire or commitment. Have you ever seen a fat person in a gym? You can look at them and judge how effective their exercise routine is (our walk with Christ), we can judge the results of their workout (fruit) but we can't see their heart. We don't know their level of commitment and we truly can't judge that based on what we see. I recently ran/walked a 5K. First off I am NOT a runner. I'm an eater :D It truly took all I had in me to finish that race. I thought I was going to meet Jesus that day I hurt so bad. Here is my point. If you take me and compare me to the winner you can tell a lot of things... you can tell who trained harder, you can tell who eats better and you could probably tell who knows the most about running. But you can't tell who tried harder. You can't tell who was more committed. You could definitely make some assumptions based on what you see, but you couldn't state it as fact. Because the contents of a man's heart can't be seen, measured or judged by another man.

I speak only from sources. I will not speak on something I'm not sure of.
I can absolutely promise you that you are NOT sure of the condition of Obama's heart or his salvation.

Except the Bible because I am new. I will speak about and ask questions to people who know. Chuck I look up to you for your advice
I appreciate that Donald but if you look to me for advice then I encourage you to take a step back and consider the advice I'm trying to give you brother.:)

but quit defending a man who is of the same faith we are at war with.
I'm not defending Obama trust me. I can't stand the man. I think he's the most inexperienced and unqualified President in my lifetime and possibly ever. I'm extremely nervous about the country my 4 children are going to be growing up in especially when you look at Obama's position on Israel. It's YOU I'm concerned about Donald. Every believer on this board has been where you are right now. I look at your posts and see the passion you have for our country, the love you have for your children and the same fear for their future I have for mine. But don't go down the path of questioning another persons faith especially one who has professed to be a Christian. It's not your job, duty or responsibility. At this new stage in your faith pour your passion and your fervor into YOUR faith. Pour it into God's word. Pour it into prayer, including prayer for our President. We can all agree he needs it. Either for Salvation as some of you believe or maybe just for true and complete surrender to Christ. Either way he needs it.

It is important in so many ways because look at what are country is about to face.

Donald my responses are above. I enjoy our dialogue my friend but it's 2am in Florida and I need some sleep!! Until we chat again!!

Chuck
10-22-2009, 07:15 AM
I would never slip up and say that I am Muslim if I know I am a Christian. That's almost like me slipping up and saying I'm a black man when I'm white. Dude he said it. LOOK AT HIS NAME. When have you ever heard a Christian Named Barrack Hussein Obama. Come on.

In the verbage of the mighty Facebook.......

Dislike. :sad:

donaldbreland
10-22-2009, 08:18 AM
Sometimes Chuck I get a little bent out of shape. I guess that comes from years of not knowing how to place my anger properly. I agree with you and will say I am wrong about not knowing his heart. Matter of fact my Bible tells me to forgive and I am with you on I believe God is doing this. I believe God wants to see how much we actually do trust and Obey his decision ( Gods that is). I admire your thought and your words and will do my best to quit ranting on Obama and instead start praying for him to do the right thing. God Bless you brother. Thanks

Tyburn
10-22-2009, 12:54 PM
I think you are wrong. Our works is the only thing we are taking to heaven.

Rev. 20: 12 and 13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

It mentions "Books" which I presume are the lists of works, and the Book of Life. The Heathen are judged by their Works...but My name isnt in any of those books. My name is in The Book of Life. We may still have to face what we did in terms of works...but our works, or lack thereof wont condemn us to Hell.

"We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" Thats a quote from one of Peters Books...either that or The book of Job, I forget which one LOL. Its often used as part of the Christian Funeral Sentances.

So what your quote does above, simply says, in short, judge those people who are not contained in the book of Life. If you are a Christian your name will be in the Book of Life, its a big list containing the names of those who have entered into a personal relationship with GOD by their own free will and have claimed their free gift of salvation.

Incidently...Works without Faith is shyte...plenty of Heathen do better works then many Christians...it wont save them. Face it Mark, going to Heaven has nothing to do with works at all :)

Tyburn
10-22-2009, 01:08 PM
:) and here are those Funerial Sentances in action :w00t: they are an amalgamation of scripture, plus a verse from the Book of Common Prayer...I dont see no mention of works. :ninja:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKNmlXXvl0c

I want them sung at mine :ashamed:

The close is also a passage from Revelations which clearly show Christians are not condemned regardless of works. Works are about Earth. They are possibly about earning rewards in Heaven if thats what motivates you. But I personally have no desperate need to be rewarded at all in Heaven, just being their with GOD is quite sufficient for me...and besides...you dont know what works equate to what crowns GOD may give you in the Spiritual Realm. So I think that we must be VERY careful when we assume holding a Christian to a higher Standard then anyone else....nevermind that the Standards are just figments of OUR opinion. GOD has told you his Standard...You really going to judge Obama on that?? Perfection? No, I think not Mark, I think not

"I heard a voice from Heaven, saying unto me, write, from henceforth, blessed are they which die in The Lord, even so saith the Spirit, for they rest from their labours"

Neezar
10-22-2009, 02:51 PM
It mentions "Books" which I presume are the lists of works, and the Book of Life. The Heathen are judged by their Works...but My name isnt in any of those books. My name is in The Book of Life. We may still have to face what we did in terms of works...but our works, or lack thereof wont condemn us to Hell.


Why would the heathen be judged? Are they going to burn a little? Or burn a lot based on their works? :huh:


:laugh: Sorry. But I do want to know what you believe on that, Dave.

Mark
10-22-2009, 02:52 PM
It mentions "Books" which I presume are the lists of works, and the Book of Life. The Heathen are judged by their Works...but My name isnt in any of those books. My name is in The Book of Life. We may still have to face what we did in terms of works...but our works, or lack thereof wont condemn us to Hell.

"We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" Thats a quote from one of Peters Books...either that or The book of Job, I forget which one LOL. Its often used as part of the Christian Funeral Sentances.

So what your quote does above, simply says, in short, judge those people who are not contained in the book of Life. If you are a Christian your name will be in the Book of Life, its a big list containing the names of those who have entered into a personal relationship with GOD by their own free will and have claimed their free gift of salvation.

Incidently...Works without Faith is shyte...plenty of Heathen do better works then many Christians...it wont save them. Face it Mark, going to Heaven has nothing to do with works at all :)


Dave, I usually don't respond to you because you get so off topic with your rambling. Works have nothing to do with going to heaven. They are how you are judged.
We will take our works with us to heaven when we go. And we will leave a legacy here on earth when we go.

Every christian bears fruit, how much is up to you. Are you telling us you have no good deeds? No fruit? Do you even care about fruit?

Mark
10-22-2009, 02:59 PM
:)
So I think that we must be VERY careful when we assume holding a Christian to a higher Standard then anyone else.

A christian is at a higher standard.
Romans 13:13 - "Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don’t participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy." (NLT)

Ephesians 5:8 - "For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light!" (NLT)

Mark
10-22-2009, 03:16 PM
:)

But I personally have no desperate need to be rewarded at all in Heaven, just being their with GOD is quite sufficient for me...and besides...you dont know what works equate to what crowns GOD may give you in the Spiritual Realm.
Luke 6
A Tree and Its Fruit
43"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
The Wise and Foolish Builders
46"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

Dave do you read the Bible? Do you go to church?

NateR
10-22-2009, 03:23 PM
A christian is at a higher standard.

Yep, just like you would hold your children to a higher standard of behavior when out in public. If you're at Wal-Mart and see some random kid running around, raising a ruckus, then you're not going to intervene because the child doesn't belong to you. However, if it was one of your boys, then you would quickly intervene and put a stop to it.

Just the same, we are GOD's children, after we come to faith in Christ, so He holds us to a higher standard because we are representing Him on this earth.

Dave you need to read Matthew 25: 14-30:
The Parable of the Talents

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15 To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17 So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18 But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19 "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

21 "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

22 "The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

24 "Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

26 "His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 " 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Conrad
10-22-2009, 06:44 PM
More ammo to back up the "taking our works to heaven" and our eternal legacy chatter...

As we scan through more of Paul's writings, look for issues of judgment and "suffering loss," cf. 1Cor3:12ff, it speaks of suffering loss at the believers' judgement--a loss of reward. "Reward" is another good word to do a study on. This is at Judgment seat--a judgment for believers in heaven and not unbelievers who are already condemned to hell. What you'll find is that salvation is not what is meant by reward. Reward is for how a believer (already saved) lives his life. The "loss," then, is a loss of reward, and not off salvation. Ok, grab your concordance and start your searches. I hope this was written to encourage ppl to look things up instead of proof-texting y'all. Anyway, this is some more detail behind how one "takes works to heaven." :)


Wow, that video just pisses me off. I'm starting to think that anyone who actually voted for Barack Obama needs to have their American citizenship revoked.

No offense to Nate, but some people here, not just Nate, are the last people to whom I thought this SPP information would be news--the 1st video link that Donald posted. That vid is a recomp of older stuff, of course. It also leaves out mention of the Trilateral Commission (named for the future interrelations of the APU, NAU, and EU) and the Bildergurg group (which is a Federal Crime for us and especially elected officials to attend).

I hope that's not too harsh, but so many Christians directly disobey the command give three times in Mark 13. In fact, most even turn it on it's head. They respond to eschatology with, "well, we'll know neither the hour nor the day," as a means of justifying why they don't pay attention to these things or think about them. Were we obeying Mark 13, this would all be the old news that it is--sorry to let my frustration show.

Thanks for posting that vid, Donald. I guess we should ask folks to read Mark 13 and watch the "Obama Deception" film, which can be found in full length on-line. Perhaps then we'll understand. There's also a new assemblage coming out called "Fall of the Republic." I believe "Endgame" and "Terror Storm 2nd Ed." would round out the set, all from the same producer. Production value aside, he makes Mike Moore look like an amateur idiot.

LM

P.S. Getting personal--Dave, I'm not interested in your comments on the above unless you're reading the scripture suggested to you, Matt 25, etc, and focused on that stuff first. you've got plenty to work on with what's already cited for you. Don't change the subject on those who posted to you like the homeless dudes from the mission do to try and justify themselves before God. Yeah, I know I'm being direct and blunt. Anything else would be unloving, so deal.

Chuck
10-23-2009, 12:19 AM
More ammo to back up the "taking our works to heaven" and our eternal legacy chatter...

As we scan through more of Paul's writings, look for issues of judgement and "suffering loss," cf. 1Cor3:12ff, it speaks of suffering loss at the believers' judgement--a loss of reward. "Reward" is another good word to do a study on. This is at the Great White Throne of Judgement--for believers in heaven and not unbelievers who are already condemned to hell. What you'll find is that salvation is not what is meant by reward. Reward is for how a believer (already saved) lives his life. The "loss," then, is a loss of reward, and not off salvation. Ok, grab your concordance and start your searches. I hope this was written to encourage ppl to look things up instead of proof-texting y'all. Anyway, this is some more detail behind how one "takes works to heaven." :)


Conrad either you are confusing the Judgment Seat/Beema Seat with the Great White Throne or I am completely misunderstanding you. :wink:

que
10-23-2009, 02:15 AM
the last time i checked this thread it was about obama being a christian or not. i guess since no one has been able to figure that out, the topic has changed to whether our works make us a better christian in heaven

to get back on topic, all i know is, anyone who believes that jesus christ died on the cross for our sins is just as much a christian as you or i and is going to heaven.

Mark
10-23-2009, 02:19 AM
the last time i checked this thread it was about obama being a christian or not. i guess since no one has been able to figure that out, the topic has changed to whether our works make us a better christian in heaven

to get back on topic, all i know is, anyone who believes that jesus christ died on the cross for our sins is just as much a christian as you or i and is going to heaven.


So is Obama a christian?

que
10-23-2009, 02:22 AM
So is Obama a christian?


i already told my answer to that question, here it is

if he believes that the lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for his sins then yes he is a christian. but no one knows if he truly believes that except for him and God

so basically, i dunno

but anyways, i have no idea if he is or not. i don't want to speculate on it, but if i had to guess... there is a part of me that thinks he is not. but like i said only him and God truly knows if he truly believes

his morals are not very christianlike at all.. but i can't call him a non-christian because of that, because who is to say someone with hardcore liberal views can't be a christian? it's not our morals that make us christian or not (we all have bad morals somwhere) it's about if we truly believe.

adamt
10-23-2009, 02:27 AM
christian = son of or servant of Christ

Obama= NOT a son of or servant of Christ

adamt
10-23-2009, 02:32 AM
So is Obama a christian?

multiple choice



a. hell.....yes
b. HELL NO!!

donaldbreland
10-23-2009, 02:33 AM
Que, Just because you believe that Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins doesn't mean your going to go to heaven. You have to live life as a Christian. You have to do more than just believe it, you have to live it. I still stand by my words that he is not. That is my opinion and it is based upon videos I've watched and things I heard this man speak. I mean his own church doesn't really think they are Christians. I can't remember which video it was in I posted but in one video it has Rev Wright talking about it.

adamt
10-23-2009, 02:39 AM
Que, Just because you believe that Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins doesn't mean your going to go to heaven. You have to live life as a Christian. You have to do more than just believe it, you have to live it. .


WOW BUDDY..... you are way, way, way off

you just defined "works as salvation"


All you have to do is repent and believe!!!! "living it" means you are doing something worth saving.... earning your way... you have to do nothing more than believe. Period.

whether you believe that or not will show in your life, but if it does or not makes no difference in your eternal security

Mark
10-23-2009, 02:40 AM
Que, Just because you believe that Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins doesn't mean your going to go to heaven. You have to live life as a Christian. You have to do more than just believe it, you have to live it.

I think some people are mistaken, They think they are christians but are not. So the good works is one way to see if they are or not.

NateR
10-23-2009, 02:42 AM
to get back on topic, all i know is, anyone who believes that jesus christ died on the cross for our sins is just as much a christian as you or i and is going to heaven.

Well, Satan and all of his demons believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and there is no doubt in their minds that Jesus is the true Son of GOD. So, are they Christians and are they going to Heaven?

Mark
10-23-2009, 02:44 AM
WOW BUDDY..... you are way, way, way off

you just defined "works as salvation"


All you have to do is repent and believe!!!! "living it" means you are doing something worth saving.... earning your way... you have to do nothing more than believe. Period.

whether you believe that or not will show in your life, but if it does or not makes no difference in your eternal security

I agree.

donaldbreland
10-23-2009, 02:57 AM
What I mean by what I said was that you have to believe but you also have to live your life by the bible as closely as you can. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross to forgive us of our sins but I also believe that he intended us to try and live a bit better as well. I believe I am not supposed to kill someone or still from people. I do not believe we are supposed to go out and do wrong and then repent our sins then go out and do the same things again. I know we are not perfect and I do not try to imply that I am. I am no where near perfect and I do understand that you have to believe in what the Bible says. Please don't take too much offense to me. I am very young in being a Born Again Christian on August 13, 2009. I need help sometimes understanding what I read. I might read a passage tonight and take it way out of context and then a week later and read it again and say WoW. I was completely wrong. I am not hear on this forum to really say much about Obama. My two things that brought me to this page was the great debates about Christ and Matt Hughes being someone I look up to. I know i have faults and sometimes I let my mouth overload my butt. But being a Christian I thought you were supposed to help each other out and not down them when they are wrong. I ask for help on here and read some great replies from Chuck, Nater, Mark and a few others. Again I will say please forgive me if you guys take offence to my posts. I am not trying to do my best to live my life as a Christian. I'm going to do my best. Not because I need to, but because I am a son of God and a brother to Jesus. It's the least I can do to show Jesus thank you for dieing on the cross to forgive me of my sins.

adamt
10-23-2009, 03:00 AM
when Christ talked about fruits... which I posted on page 2 and mark posted on page 3... it meant two things..... christians bear good fruit..... BUT christians (good trees) also DO NOT bear bad fruit....

Obama reeks of rotten figs

NateR
10-23-2009, 03:04 AM
What I mean by what I said was that you have to believe but you also have to live your life by the bible as closely as you can. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross to forgive us of our sins but I also believe that he intended us to try and live a bit better as well. I believe I am not supposed to kill someone or still from people. I do not believe we are supposed to go out and do wrong and then repent our sins then go out and do the same things again. I know we are not perfect and I do not try to imply that I am. I am no where near perfect and I do understand that you have to believe in what the Bible says. Please don't take too much offense to me. I am very young in being a Born Again Christian on August 13, 2009. I need help sometimes understanding what I read. I might read a passage tonight and take it way out of context and then a week later and read it again and say WoW. I was completely wrong. I am not hear on this forum to really say much about Obama. My two things that brought me to this page was the great debates about Christ and Matt Hughes being someone I look up to. I know i have faults and sometimes I let my mouth overload my butt. But being a Christian I thought you were supposed to help each other out and not down them when they are wrong. I ask for help on here and read some great replies from Chuck, Nater, Mark and a few others. Again I will say please forgive me if you guys take offence to my posts. I am not trying to do my best to live my life as a Christian. I'm going to do my best. Not because I need to, but because I am a son of God and a brother to Jesus. It's the least I can do to show Jesus thank you for dieing on the cross to forgive me of my sins.

James is an excellent book to read to illustrate what I think you are trying to say.

James 2:14-26:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Another way to explain it would be to compare it to parenting. If a parent claims to love their child, but neglects them, forgets to feed them, doesn't give them clean clothes and doesn't make sure that they are being educated; then would you really believe that parent's claim to love their child? It's their love for their child that compels the parent to take care of that child. In the same way, our faith in GOD compels us to do good works.

adamt
10-23-2009, 03:08 AM
What I mean by what I said was that you have to believe but you also have to live your life by the bible as closely as you can. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross to forgive us of our sins but I also believe that he intended us to try and live a bit better as well. I believe I am not supposed to kill someone or still from people. I do not believe we are supposed to go out and do wrong and then repent our sins then go out and do the same things again. I know we are not perfect and I do not try to imply that I am. I am no where near perfect and I do understand that you have to believe in what the Bible says. Please don't take too much offense to me. I am very young in being a Born Again Christian on August 13, 2009. I need help sometimes understanding what I read. I might read a passage tonight and take it way out of context and then a week later and read it again and say WoW. I was completely wrong. I am not hear on this forum to really say much about Obama. My two things that brought me to this page was the great debates about Christ and Matt Hughes being someone I look up to. I know i have faults and sometimes I let my mouth overload my butt. But being a Christian I thought you were supposed to help each other out and not down them when they are wrong. I ask for help on here and read some great replies from Chuck, Nater, Mark and a few others. Again I will say please forgive me if you guys take offence to my posts. I am not trying to do my best to live my life as a Christian. I'm going to do my best. Not because I need to, but because I am a son of God and a brother to Jesus. It's the least I can do to show Jesus thank you for dieing on the cross to forgive me of my sins.


well.... who's offended????

" I need help sometimes understanding what I read."

you got "admonished".... take it or leave it... nothing personal.... I am not offended... i hope you aren't

If you need it sugar coated.... I can do that... but it doesn't seem you need it sugar coated and can take it like a man...it seems you genuinely want to learn....

and I know what you are trying to say..... sometimes it don't come out like you want it to....

adamt
10-23-2009, 03:15 AM
In the same way, our faith in GOD compels us to do good works.


i think this is the key here....

if you don't know better you could easily say paul and james contradict each other.

that passage in james has given more than a few theologians a fit....

donaldbreland
10-23-2009, 03:24 AM
Again I say thanks for all the help.

Chuck
10-23-2009, 03:48 AM
christian = son of or servant of Christ

Obama= NOT a son of or servant of Christ

You have neither the authority or the ability to make this claim brother...... :wink:

Neezar
10-23-2009, 03:51 AM
You have neither the authority or the ability to make this claim brother...... :wink:

I think we all realize that he is stating that from his point of view, i.e. his opinion. I don't think anyone believes that he is trying to pass God's judgment.

:laugh:

Chuck
10-23-2009, 03:56 AM
I think we all realize that he is stating that from his point of view, i.e. his opinion. I don't think anyone believes that he is trying to pass God's judgment.

:laugh:

I know. :wink:

Perhaps I'm just a little touchy after weeks of seeing the body of Christ torn down on here via the last thread?

I just hate to see us jump from judging each other based on drinking/not drinking straight to questioning/judging someones salvation...

I enjoy a good debate or discussion as much as the next person but think we've had enough of that recently in the C-Section..... can't we just share some prayer requests or praise reports for a day or two? Group hug maybe? Share a Slurpee and a Snickers?

:D

Neezar
10-23-2009, 03:57 AM
I know. :wink:

Perhaps I'm just a little touchy after weeks of seeing the body of Christ torn down on here via the last thread?

I just hate to see us jump from judging each other based on drinking/not drinking straight to questioning/judging someones salvation...

I enjoy a good debate or discussion as much as the next person but think we've had enough of that recently in the C-Section..... can't we just share some prayer requests or praise reports for a day or two? Group hug maybe? Share a Slurpee and a Snickers?

:D

Um, okay. :unsure-1: So.....where do you want to go fight at? Which section?


lol

Chuck
10-23-2009, 03:59 AM
Um, okay. :unsure-1: So.....where do you want to go fight at? Which section?


lol

Bitch.

























:D

donaldbreland
10-23-2009, 04:28 AM
Really it doesn't matter if he is Christian or not. He will not be our President after 2012.

I have to ask one question? Do you just have to believe in Christ or do you have to live your life the best you can in the eyes of God?

donaldbreland
10-23-2009, 04:45 AM
Really it doesn't matter if he is Christian or not. He will not be our President after 2012.

Do you just have to believe in Christ or do you have to live your life the best you can in the eyes of God?

I believe in what I read. I just don't listen to a preacher and say that's what I believe. I take my on time and read different scriptures of his sermon. I always take a notebook and right down scriptures so I can study them through the week. Like I said sometimes I just plain out get the message wrong but I believe that's the devil trying to change my way of thinking so that I do not get what that passage says. I will beat the devil through scripture and I look back at Matthew ch 4 vs 1-11. In that message it speaks of how Jesus defeated the devil with scripture. I never knew that I could do that. Life and death is in the power of the tongue. This is really new to me. I have always believed that there was a God in heaven but I never had a relationship with him. Not because he wasn't there. It was because I was ignorant and still I some what am when it comes to the Bible but I'm learning.
I used to look to my dad for answers about the Bible. Man he knew that book from beginning to the end. He was all I had to talk to about the Bible because of how educated he was of it. He passed away on July 24th 2008 in Albany Georgia. I asked to have the sinners prayer prayed for me at his funeral. Now I look for the answers to my questions and have no one who is knowledgeable and thats why I look to this forum. I look to you guys because your real. I like that this forum is filled with people from all walks of life. I look up to you because I know I'm going to struggle a bit but I feel like this is a good place to talk about Christ just a little bit more through my day. I mean look at what he has done for us. I am thankful for everything he did and continues to do for my family. Again I thank each and everyone of you who put up with me and my rants lol. Thanks so much

Conrad
10-23-2009, 04:47 AM
Conrad either you are confusing the Judgment Seat/Beema Seat with the Great White Throne or I am completely misunderstanding you. :wink:

YES...whoops, thank you.

I was thinking about something is Revelation when I typed that and switched the two (2Cor5). Nice catch. I'll go back and fix it.

I saw this just as I was logging out from work over 3+1/2 hours ago. There have been a lot of posts! Time to catch up. Thanks again.

Conrad
10-23-2009, 05:51 AM
Really it doesn't matter if he is Christian or not. He will not be our President after 2012.

Do you just have to believe in Christ or do you have to live your life the best you can in the eyes of God?

I believe in what I read. I just don't listen to a preacher and say that's what I believe. I take my on time and read different scriptures of his sermon. I always take a notebook and right down scriptures so I can study them through the week. Like I said sometimes I just plain out get the message wrong but I believe that's the devil trying to change my way of thinking so that I do not get what that passage says. I will beat the devil through scripture and I look back at Matthew ch 4 vs 1-11. In that message it speaks of how Jesus defeated the devil with scripture. I never knew that I could do that. Life and death is in the power of the tongue. This is really new to me. I have always believed that there was a God in heaven but I never had a relationship with him. Not because he wasn't there. It was because I was ignorant and still I some what am when it comes to the Bible but I'm learning.
I used to look to my dad for answers about the Bible. Man he knew that book from beginning to the end. He was all I had to talk to about the Bible because of how educated he was of it. He passed away on July 24th 2008 in Albany Georgia. I asked to have the sinners prayer prayed for me at his funeral. Now I look for the answers to my questions and have no one who is knowledgeable and thats why I look to this forum. I look to you guys because your real. I like that this forum is filled with people from all walks of life. I look up to you because I know I'm going to struggle a bit but I feel like this is a good place to talk about Christ just a little bit more through my day. I mean look at what he has done for us. I am thankful for everything he did and continues to do for my family. Again I thank each and everyone of you who put up with me and my rants lol. Thanks so much


1) if we're a country after 2010.
2) THat's a good question. You have to believe in and "on" Christ, relying on him alone for the forgiveness of your sins, thus your relationship with the Father. What we see is that you will grow (stay in the Bible as daily as you can) away from unGodly ways towards a character that reflects God/Christ. This can take time, while we must never use that need for time as an excuse to pursue sin. Mostly, your attitude will change, towards God's word, His people, and sin. Read 1st John and there are some traits in there (I'm told 5 but I remember only 3) that are useful to examine yourself to see if you are actually saved.

3) I'm sorry for the loss of your dad, especially as he was such a resource and external compass for you. You've said a few thing that we can help with. First, having others pray "the sinner's prayer" doesn't save a person. Anyone can recite a prayer, but not repent for another person. That's illogical. You'd have to pray it yourself, and then only if you actually are repentant. The sinner's prayer doesn't save us even when we say it. Even if you "mean it." Understand that it's Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that saves us--under God's will.

What I think I see here is that it can be hard to put things into words, especially if you're not used to the jargon, the subject, and the specificity. That is, we get really specific about these theological explanations. One loose phrasing or assumed implication can raise eyebrows. For good familiarity with the basics of the faith, in specifics, and good ways to explain it, I usually recommend these:

-Paul Washer's "shocking" youth message. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll post it on my site. His site is http://HeartCryMissionary.com, but I think that sermon is not on there. HE gets so emotional in it that to unbelievers, he totally looks foolish. He's also mistaken about the "not invited back" logic, because some people abuse that, but that's another topic.

- From Way of the Master / http://livingwaters.com , please check out the "Hell's Best Kept Secret" and "True & False Conversion." I believe that these two, one-hour lectures help people to understand more specifically AND explain things better. It takes only one slip of the tongue/mouse for everyone to get excited or mad.

Rather than another debate about questioning one's faith, I hope this will help you communicate as it has me and others.

donaldbreland
10-23-2009, 06:41 AM
Thanks Conrad.
I understand that just saying the sinners prayer doesn't make me saved. I was lost in a emotional down when my father passed away and I actually believe I did it more for him at the time of me doing so. After he died on July 24th 2008 I wanted to better my life and was really searching for answers. I started then reading the Bible but soon fell victim to the devil by straying away and only reading once every couple months. I felt bad and dirty and as successful as I have been in business I didn't have anything. I mean I had a house, a family, a car and all that but I was missing something. I was scared to death that even if I died and I believed in God and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior I would still go to hell because I wasn't living my life for God. It was on June 6th 2009 My wife brought a book to me called " A Purpose Driven Life" by Rick warren that I decided to actually read it. This book is a 40 day book and my wife and I sat down every night and read it like we were supposed to. after reading this book every day I felt hungry for more. So after reading the book each night my wife and I would grab the bible and read a couple verses and then discuss them. After the forty days were up I didn't want to give up so we kept reading the bible but we would read about an hour a night. I didn't understand what I was reading a lot of the times but it wasn't until I read Matthew that I was really understanding my true purpose in life and how I could defeat the wicked temptations of the devil.
For those of you that don't know me I am trying to go pro in professional bass fishing. I received a phone call from a Preacher friend who use to fish in my Bass Club 4 years prior. We haven't spoke in 4 years and one day he wants to go fishing. I ended up going with him and I know I asked a ton of questions. He answered them and I just felt great. A week later I receive a phone call at 5:30 in the morning from the preacher asking me if I can go fishing. I am a married man so I had to ask my wife and as serious as I am about fishing I never just leave on the last minute like that. It takes at least
30 minutes for me to get my stuff together and thats doing it fast. He wanted me to be there by 6:00 am and the lake was 45 minutes away. I had 5 minutes to grab my stuff and go. On the way down to the lake I just get this weird feeling like I needed something in my life. I was missing something. I mean I believed in God. I was accepting God. I was happy with my family but yet I was scared. To be honest I couldn't tell you what it was. I get to the lake at about 6:18 am. I was speeding the whole way there. I get there and the feeling just grew. I really didn't want to talk about it but Iknew something big was about to happen in my life.
I was on the water fishing and having a great day when the Preacher and I got on the conversation about being saved. Now my answer to that question was I said the sinners prayer so I think I am. He told me of another co preacher at his church that was fishing on the water as well. He said that there was plenty of water there and am I ready to commit my life to God. The number one biggest question I have ever had to face in my entire life I answered in 5 seconds. I said I am. At 11:00 am we met up with the other preacher and decided to call it quits on fishing. At 11:30 am on August 13, 2009 in Eutawville South Carolina at Bells Marina on Santee Cooper. I gave my life to God. I got baptized. I am 29 years old and I want to give my life to God. I want to live my life for God and I want to do whats right for God. I said before on the way fishing I had this weird feeling. After getting Baptized the feeling was completely Gone. I had a new feeling. A great feeling. A feeling like I was fresh, like I was a clean person. I was soaking wet and went and ate with the preachers. It was an amazing time and it was amazing how the last couple weeks went leading up to that point. I am very young in reading the Bible but I know that I did this for one reason. I wanted to do it for God. Not for my family, not for my career, not for anything other than the fact that I wanted to know that if I died. That I knew where I would go.
I agree with a lot of guys on here but one thing I don't believe in yet is that all you have to do is believe. I believe you have to really do your best to worship God. Like I said before. I am new and maybe I'm wrong but I will read and learn all I can because in the end I am now putting God first in my life.

Conrad
10-23-2009, 06:48 AM
I left something out form above.

Repentance(s) and good works are the natural outgrowth of genuine faith.

Insert that somewhere in #2

donaldbreland
10-23-2009, 06:53 AM
A preacher I was listening to the other day said lead by example. I want to live my life doing the best I can and be being the best person I can be. I'm just so excited to know that I am learning about God.

Jonlion
10-23-2009, 07:06 AM
In the end, does it really matter?

As far as I can see at the moment, and please correct me if I am wrong but there is nothing about Christianity that seeks to rule and run government.

I'm talking bibically here. I used to be very anxious and concerned at Englannd turning into a islamic state. Yet that really isn't important, not only am i commanded to show love to anyone of my enemies, whoever they may be but I have trust in the Lord now that this is all known to him and follows how he so desires it.

When I think of our early christian brothers and the persecution they faced and in that the community and steadfast faith they forged together then I meet current issues with a lot less anger.

Who cares about America, who cares about England, we are nothing!!!!!!!!!!!

The kingdom of God is all that matters and I long for its arrival

God Bless

Jonlion
10-23-2009, 07:09 AM
Back to topic!

I think Obama is whatever faith gets him the best image and voters. Simple as that.

I sincerely hope that he is saved and spreads the Gospel via the good works that he does.

Tyburn
10-23-2009, 12:22 PM
Why would the heathen be judged? Are they going to burn a little? Or burn a lot based on their works? :huh:


:laugh: Sorry. But I do want to know what you believe on that, Dave.

Its not a case of them being punished more, I think its more a case of GOD going through step by step every single fault, and re-addressing it in order for Justice to be done. They need to know why they are going to Hell and what they did wrong.

Tyburn
10-23-2009, 12:29 PM
Dave, I usually don't respond to you because you get so off topic with your rambling. Works have nothing to do with going to heaven. They are how you are judged.
We will take our works with us to heaven when we go. And we will leave a legacy here on earth when we go.

Every christian bears fruit, how much is up to you. Are you telling us you have no good deeds? No fruit? Do you even care about fruit?

Sure I care about fruit. I think that works are a possible way to monitor someones faith, but I think its more about holding your Christian friends to account...and less about trying to find out if someone you actually dont know is a Christian or not. You are not just judged on your works...and Christians maybe judged but they are not senatanced, even a poor in spirit Christian...you are also judged on how you judge others...

We dont take anything to heaven. There might be records of our works, but to say "we will take our works with us to heaven" is foolish. We dont take anything with us, it doesnt matter what treasure you store up on earth, you cant take it to heaven with you...and as for a legacy...thats left behind for other people...it bears no reflection on you once you have died.

Whereas I wonder if the purpose of this thread is just to cast more doubt about Obama, rather then anything else. Isnt it more just asking if people think he's a liar at claiming to be a Christian??

Chuck
10-23-2009, 12:30 PM
YES...whoops, thank you.

I was thinking about something is Revelation when I typed that and switched the two (2Cor5). Nice catch. I'll go back and fix it.

I saw this just as I was logging out from work over 3+1/2 hours ago. There have been a lot of posts! Time to catch up. Thanks again.

Whew! :D

That saves me a whole lot of typing brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh::laugh:

Tyburn
10-23-2009, 12:31 PM
A christian is at a higher standard.
Romans 13:13 - "Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don’t participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy." (NLT)

Ephesians 5:8 - "For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light!" (NLT)

Yeah...and in the Old Testament it says

"Be Holy, for I am Holy"

are you Holy Mark??

:huh:

rearnakedchoke
10-23-2009, 02:52 PM
after reading what everyone had to say, i am sticking with my original thought of YES, obama is a Christian ... Chuck is right, we truly don't know and never will know his heart ...

Neezar
10-23-2009, 02:58 PM
after reading what everyone had to say, i am sticking with my original thought of YES, obama is a Christian ... Chuck is right, we truly don't know and never will know his heart ...

Excuse me but how is stating that he 'IS' any different than stating that he 'ISN'T'? If you don't know then you don't know. If we shouldn't be speculating then we shouldn't be speculating either way. Don't you agree?

Neezar
10-23-2009, 02:59 PM
btw, I have not nor would I ever claim to know if he was a Christian or not. However, I can say without a doubt that I would not look to him for spiritual guidance. lol

rearnakedchoke
10-23-2009, 03:03 PM
Excuse me but how is stating that he 'IS' any different than stating that he 'ISN'T'? If you don't know then you don't know. If we shouldn't be speculating then we shouldn't be speculating either way. Don't you agree?

no .. i meant that you people don't know his heart .. i do .. i have special powers you know ... LOL

I stand corrected, yes .. no one can say whether or not he is a Christian, that is for him and God to figure out ..

Neezar
10-23-2009, 03:04 PM
no .. i meant that you people don't know his heart .. i do .. i have special powers you know ... LOL

I stand corrected, yes .. no one can say whether or not he is a Christian, that is for him and God to figure out ..

:angry:



:laugh:

Vizion
10-23-2009, 03:08 PM
no .. i meant that you people don't know his heart .. i do .. i have special powers you know ... LOL

I stand corrected, yes .. no one can say whether or not he is a Christian, that is for him and God to figure out .. Yea, you probably think him and God are equals :rolleyes:

Neezar
10-23-2009, 03:11 PM
Yea, you probably think him and God are equals :rolleyes:

:mellow: Wow.

rearnakedchoke
10-23-2009, 05:21 PM
Yea, you probably think him and God are equals :rolleyes:

ummm ... ahhhh ... i don't know what i am allowed to say ... LOL

NateR
10-23-2009, 05:33 PM
ummm ... ahhhh ... i don't know what i am allowed to say ... LOL

As long as it isn't blasphemous, then you're fine.

rearnakedchoke
10-23-2009, 05:40 PM
As long as it isn't blasphemous, then you're fine.

come on, what's a little blasphemy gonna do? LOL .. gotcha ...

adamt
10-23-2009, 07:02 PM
after reading what everyone had to say, i am sticking with my original thought of YES, obama is a Christian ... Chuck is right, we truly don't know and never will know his heart ...



i'll be glad to judge him. I'm ready to be judged with the same measure that I judge him with.

Not only is he not a christian he is an anti christ.... not THE Anti Christ, but A anti-christ. He's a false prophet, sent to judge america for their pathetic display of morals..... or lack thereof.




People need to read the passage they love to quote without finishing....


Five verses later Jesus says, "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine" (Matthew 7:6). This command assumes the exercise of spiritual discernment. A few verses later Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets...You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15,16,20). Again Jesus demands spiritual discernment. In Jesus' view it is not "judging" to conclude that someone is a false prophet. OBAMA IS A FALSE PROPHET
Is it then , our duty as christians to keep such discerning conclusions to ourselves in order to avoid "judging"? Emphatically not! Matthew 7:1 does not teach that it is sinful to confront and, if necessary, publicly expose evil. If this were so, how could Jesus say, "And if you brother sins, go and reprove him...?" How could Jesus go on to say, "And if he refuses to listen...tell it to the church"? (Matthew 18:15,17). How could Jesus' apostle, Paul, say, "Do you not judge those who are within the church?...Remove the wicked man from among yourselves" (1 Corinthians 5:12,13).

Matthew 7:1 does not forbid us either to form or express our opinions about such hypocrites. Jesus expressed such an opinion in this very passage. In Matthew 7:5 He said, "You hypocrite." John the Baptist expressed his opinion of the Pharisees publicly to their faces, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matthew 3:7). We must do the same. Jesus in this very chapter (Matthew 7:15,16,20) commanded, "Beware of false prophets...you will know them by their fruits."

It's time for Christians to stop being bound by such false interpretation and to start dealing with sin. "Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive with them" (Proverbs 28:4)

So what does Matthew 7:1 mean? In this context, Jesus is forbidding forming or expressing conclusions about others by those who won't see or deal with their own sins. Matthew 7:3-5 says, "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?...You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

If, on the basis of Matthew 7:1, you refuse to form and express (when necessary) moral opinions, you are confessing your refusal to see and deal with your own sins. The refusal to exercise moral discernment is a confession of moral bankruptcy! May God embolden you to stop tolerating sin in yourself and others, to your hurt and to theirs!




I plagiarised quite a bit of this, because it was written better than I could write it, and it said what I wanted to.

I have also removed the logs from my eyes so I don't mind removing the forests from barack.

Chuck
10-23-2009, 07:33 PM
i'll be glad to judge him. I'm ready to be judged with the same measure that I judge him with.

Not only is he not a christian he is an anti christ.... not THE Anti Christ, but A anti-christ. He's a false prophet, sent to judge america for their pathetic display of morals..... or lack thereof.




People need to read the passage they love to quote without finishing....


Five verses later Jesus says, "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine" (Matthew 7:6). This command assumes the exercise of spiritual discernment. A few verses later Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets...You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15,16,20). Again Jesus demands spiritual discernment. In Jesus' view it is not "judging" to conclude that someone is a false prophet. OBAMA IS A FALSE PROPHET
Is it then , our duty as christians to keep such discerning conclusions to ourselves in order to avoid "judging"? Emphatically not! Matthew 7:1 does not teach that it is sinful to confront and, if necessary, publicly expose evil. If this were so, how could Jesus say, "And if you brother sins, go and reprove him...?" How could Jesus go on to say, "And if he refuses to listen...tell it to the church"? (Matthew 18:15,17). How could Jesus' apostle, Paul, say, "Do you not judge those who are within the church?...Remove the wicked man from among yourselves" (1 Corinthians 5:12,13).

Matthew 7:1 does not forbid us either to form or express our opinions about such hypocrites. Jesus expressed such an opinion in this very passage. In Matthew 7:5 He said, "You hypocrite." John the Baptist expressed his opinion of the Pharisees publicly to their faces, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matthew 3:7). We must do the same. Jesus in this very chapter (Matthew 7:15,16,20) commanded, "Beware of false prophets...you will know them by their fruits."

It's time for Christians to stop being bound by such false interpretation and to start dealing with sin. "Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive with them" (Proverbs 28:4)

So what does Matthew 7:1 mean? In this context, Jesus is forbidding forming or expressing conclusions about others by those who won't see or deal with their own sins. Matthew 7:3-5 says, "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?...You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

If, on the basis of Matthew 7:1, you refuse to form and express (when necessary) moral opinions, you are confessing your refusal to see and deal with your own sins. The refusal to exercise moral discernment is a confession of moral bankruptcy! May God embolden you to stop tolerating sin in yourself and others, to your hurt and to theirs!




I plagiarised quite a bit of this, because it was written better than I could write it, and it said what I wanted to.

I have also removed the logs from my eyes so I don't mind removing the forests from barack.

Bro I love ya but this just isn't accurate at all. The last thing I would want to do (besides visiting an angry proctologist with fat fingers) is sound like ChrisF BUT we have to keep scripture in context.

Obama is not a false prophet. Not even close. When you look at any scripture including the one's quoted we have to remember:
Who wrote it.
Who were they writing to.
When they wrote it.
The culture of the people being written to.

All scripture has 1 interpretation but multiple applications. Obama isn't a prophet and doesn't really fit any of the Biblical examples or definitions of one especially not the one's being spoken about here.

A false prophet in today's times would be someone like David Koresh (sp?) or Joseph Smith (sorry Eric). Obama has said repeatedly that he has accepted Christ and we don't have the ability to discern otherwise. It might make our hatred or dislike of him feel more justified if we believe he's not our Brother in Christ but that's not something we can say.

The only thing anybody on this board has pointed to in an attempt to discredit his proclaimed relationship with Christ are his actions or stances on political issues that they believe contradict Scripture. But are your actions or my actions that contradict Scripture any different? Do they somehow negate my relationship with Christ? Yours?

adamt
10-23-2009, 08:03 PM
Bro I love ya but this just isn't accurate at all. The last thing I would want to do (besides visiting an angry proctologist with fat fingers) is sound like ChrisF BUT we have to keep scripture in context.

Obama is not a false prophet. Not even close. When you look at any scripture including the one's quoted we have to remember:
Who wrote it. God, through Christ's mouth through matthew's penWho were they writing to. Followers of Christ
When they wrote it. after Jesus said it
The culture of the people being written to. NOPE, that is nonsense hermeneutics, that people have made of and is totally irrelevant, culture is no excuse

All scripture has 1 interpretation but multiple applications. multiple apps maybe but not different, just many ways to apply it Obama isn't a prophet and doesn't really fit any of the Biblical examples or definitions of one especially not the one's being spoken about here.

A false prophet in today's times would be someone like David Koresh (sp?) or Joseph Smith (sorry Eric). yeah they are spewing wrong scripture, but so is obamaObama has said repeatedly that he has accepted Christ a sign of anti christs and false prophetsand we don't have the ability to discern otherwiseYES WE DO read the scripture, we know them by their fruits. It might make our hatred or dislike of him feel more justified i don't really hate him, i hope he changes things,,,, but i think the way he is gonna change things is to bring about judgement on america. which i am all for, lets deal with some judgment if it means we'll get right with Godif we believe he's not our Brother in Christ but that's not something we can say.yes it is, read the scripture

The only thing anybody on this board has pointed to in an attempt to discredit his proclaimed relationship with Christ are his actions or stances on political issues that they believe contradict Scripture. But are your actions or my actions that contradict Scripture any different? Do they somehow negate my relationship with Christ? Yours?

okay, you got me a little bit here......:punch: :laugh: because you get into the heart issue of it, the why he does it..... i'm gonna have to ponder this one.... because i do believe he knows what he is doing, not that he is just an immature christian that doesn't know better, or his spirit is willing but his flesh is weak. chuck can use that excuse..... adamt can use that excuse.... i don't think chuck or adamt would make the mistakes he has though, i think he chooses to do what he does, knowing it ain't right, or in fact not knowing it ain't right, because he ain't a christian....




Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him"
(Deuteronomy 18:22).


If he is going to speak scripture, as far as I am concerned he is speaking for God, a prophet by definition, does not tell the future but speaks for God, we don't need prophets now, we have the Word and the Spirit, and in a way we are all prophets because we all quote the Word.... thus speak for God.

Barack doesn't bear good fruit when he is "speaking the truth through scripture" therefore he is a wolf in sheep's clothing..... a false prophet.
http://brotherbobsblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/barak-obama-quotes-bible-sort-of.html
http://www.speroforum.com/a/18134/Obama-quotes-Muslim-holy-scripture

http://voiceofthesheep.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/when-the-unregenerate-attempt-to-quote-scripture/

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/08/26/obama-invokes-bible-in-nola/

Chuck
10-23-2009, 08:25 PM
okay, you got me a little bit here......:punch: :laugh: because you get into the heart issue of it, the why he does it..... i'm gonna have to ponder this one.... because i do believe he knows what he is doing, not that he is just an immature christian that doesn't know better, or his spirit is willing but his flesh is weak. chuck can use that excuse..... adamt can use that excuse.... i don't think chuck or adamt would make the mistakes he has though, i think he chooses to do what he does, knowing it ain't right, or in fact not knowing it ain't right, because he ain't a christian....




Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him"
(Deuteronomy 18:22).


If he is going to speak scripture, as far as I am concerned he is speaking for God, a prophet by definition, does not tell the future but speaks for God, we don't need prophets now, we have the Word and the Spirit, and in a way we are all prophets because we all quote the Word.... thus speak for God.

Barack doesn't bear good fruit when he is "speaking the truth through scripture" therefore he is a wolf in sheep's clothing..... a false prophet.
http://brotherbobsblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/barak-obama-quotes-bible-sort-of.html
http://www.speroforum.com/a/18134/Obama-quotes-Muslim-holy-scripture

http://voiceofthesheep.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/when-the-unregenerate-attempt-to-quote-scripture/

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/08/26/obama-invokes-bible-in-nola/

Brother your so off base here.... at very best you've posted links referencing a misquoting of scripture... hardly the same thing as a false prophet.

If this topic is even worth debating we should probably agree on some definitions....

What do you think a false prophet is according to the Bible?

atomdanger
10-23-2009, 11:39 PM
This might make a few people mad,
but I have met a LOT of "christians" in my day who do not live like one.

NateR
10-24-2009, 12:38 AM
This might make a few people mad,
but I have met a LOT of "christians" in my day who do not live like one.

We've all had the same experiences and the Bible is pretty clear that this will continue to be a problem until Christ returns to separate the sheep from the goats.

Mark
10-24-2009, 12:43 AM
We dont take anything to heaven. There might be records of our works, but to say "we will take our works with us to heaven" is foolish. We dont take anything with us, it doesnt matter what treasure you store up on earth, you cant take it to heaven with you...and as for a legacy...thats left behind for other people...it bears no reflection on you once you have died.


Thats what I think, we take our works with us and leave a legacy on earth.
If you think I am wrong than start reading the Bible and going to church.

Mark
10-24-2009, 01:02 AM
Yeah...and in the Old Testament it says

"Be Holy, for I am Holy"

are you Holy Mark??

:huh:

Where did this come from? No rambling just off topic. Im not perfect, I read the Bible ,go to church, try to put god first, love my family and try to lead a christian life. If you think I can do a better job than tell me. Beware tell me and I will tell you. So Im ready for your reply, and some good advice.

Mark
10-24-2009, 01:04 AM
we have to keep scripture in context.

Chris F is back under Chuck's account!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris F
10-24-2009, 01:34 AM
Chris F is back under Chuck's account!!!!!!!!!!!!!

keep me out of this :) Unless you are willing to hear the truth unedited. :wink:
You are welcome as long as you play by the rules.

adamt
10-24-2009, 01:43 AM
If he is going to speak scripture, as far as I am concerned he is speaking for God, a prophet by definition, does not tell the future but speaks for God, we don't need prophets now, we have the Word and the Spirit, and in a way we are all prophets because we all quote the Word.... thus speak for God.

Barack doesn't bear good fruit when he is "speaking the truth through scripture" therefore he is a wolf in sheep's clothing..... a false prophet.

i think i already defined it......

we have the bible now, we don't need prophets


but


if you are to claim to quote scripture (God's Word) you are claiming to speak the word of God..... prophets speak the word of God.....that's what a prophet does..... so in a way when you quote scripture you are prophesying..... not telling the future but speaking for God.... people don't really know what prophesying is....

barack purposefully twists God's Word to his own choosing, know full well people think he is quoting God accurately..... he quotes false scripture

adamt
10-24-2009, 01:45 AM
Brother your so off base here.... at very best you've posted links referencing a misquoting of scripture... hardly the same thing as a false prophet.




when you are the president of the united states and you quote scripture,,, you better get it right

Do you think he just misquoted scripture or he does it on purpose?

Chuck
10-24-2009, 03:32 AM
when you are the president of the united states and you quote scripture,,, you better get it right

Do you think he just misquoted scripture or he does it on purpose?

I think he's ignorant. I don't think it's intentional but I wouldn't put it past him. My point is only that even if it WAS intentional I don't know that it would fill the true definition of a false prophet.

Plenty of Christians intentionally twist scripture to fit their own selfish desires or agenda. And there are times where I've seen scripture twisted in an attempt to be good. When I was in high school and unsaved a pastors daughter named Anna passed me a note in class that had this scripture:

Above all, my brothers, do not swear--not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned. James 5:12

She did this because I had a really foul mouth in high school. Now this scripture has nothing to do with profanity so at best she misquoted or misapplied scripture at worst it was intentional. I don't think that makes her a false prophet.

So my take on Obama is simply this....

I can't stand him. :huh: I think he is going to do incredible damage to our country. I'm scared for our future when you look at his attitude towards Israel. I think he is the most unqualified President in my life time. I didn't vote for him and will be amazed if he makes it 4 years without being impeached. I think his policies are a joke and he's a socialist.

BUT.... I can't state for fact if he's a believer or not. Nobody can. That's the only point I've been trying to make. I look at his choices, his policies and how he lives his life and I highly doubt he is a believer. But his heart and relationship with Christ are unknown to me. So I won't say he is or isn't a Christian because I can't.

I will say that if he IS a Christian he is more a "cultural" Christian then anything, a trait extremely common in the African American community. IF he is a believer he needs to repent of some of his choices and learn to be a Christian first and a politician second.

My take anyway. :D

donaldbreland
10-24-2009, 04:19 AM
great post Chuck

KENTUCKYREDBONE
10-24-2009, 10:19 AM
What I mean by what I said was that you have to believe but you also have to live your life by the bible as closely as you can. I believe that Jesus died on the Cross to forgive us of our sins but I also believe that he intended us to try and live a bit better as well. I believe I am not supposed to kill someone or still from people. I do not believe we are supposed to go out and do wrong and then repent our sins then go out and do the same things again. I know we are not perfect and I do not try to imply that I am. I am no where near perfect and I do understand that you have to believe in what the Bible says. Please don't take too much offense to me. I am very young in being a Born Again Christian on August 13, 2009. I need help sometimes understanding what I read. I might read a passage tonight and take it way out of context and then a week later and read it again and say WoW. I was completely wrong. I am not hear on this forum to really say much about Obama. My two things that brought me to this page was the great debates about Christ and Matt Hughes being someone I look up to. I know i have faults and sometimes I let my mouth overload my butt. But being a Christian I thought you were supposed to help each other out and not down them when they are wrong. I ask for help on here and read some great replies from Chuck, Nater, Mark and a few others. Again I will say please forgive me if you guys take offence to my posts. I am not trying to do my best to live my life as a Christian. I'm going to do my best. Not because I need to, but because I am a son of God and a brother to Jesus. It's the least I can do to show Jesus thank you for dieing on the cross to forgive me of my sins.

I think you got the right ideal in that after Salvation you try and sin no more! If we do slip we have an advocate with the Father! In other words if we do slip we repent and try to not sin again. We do not go out and deliberately sin like killing Babies for example, then repent and repeat the same sin over and over thinking it don't matter as long as we repent. Now you may sometimes be weak but you try. To truly repent you not only get forgiveness from God but you make a true legitimate effort to go and sin no more! As for Obama I cannot claim to really know his heart! I got my suspicions but I ain't God! I can however say that he does not follow Gods word or he wouldn't condone and defend such things as killing unborn Children,Killing abortion survivors and the ACT of Homosexuality!

Tyburn
10-24-2009, 12:13 PM
Thats what I think, we take our works with us and leave a legacy on earth.
If you think I am wrong than start reading the Bible and going to church.

Explain EXACTLY what you mean by taking your works with you??

I mean...do you mean physically?? or just that your works count for something?? If its the latter then I'd kinda aggree though its very vauge and I could think of better and more clear ways of saying what you wanted...if its the former then I dissagree...I dont know how you could physically take half your works with you...how do you physically take a good deed to heaven??once the deed is done, its not like you get a token you can hand in at Judgement is it :laugh:

FYI I do read my Bible (though I should read it more then I do, Granted) and I do go to church, I spent the whole of Easter-Tide 2007 showcasing on this forum, visiting all the local churches to discover which one to attend. :)

Tyburn
10-24-2009, 12:18 PM
Where did this come from? No rambling just off topic. Im not perfect, I read the Bible ,go to church, try to put god first, love my family and try to lead a christian life. If you think I can do a better job than tell me. Beware tell me and I will tell you. So Im ready for your reply, and some good advice.

:ninja: dont get defensive Mark. :ninja:

The point is that here you are judging Obama, someone, I presume you've never met :huh: holding him to some high Standard, which whilst noble, is actually pointless to GOD, since he desires Perfection.

You admit you are not perfect, and surely you must dislike it when you hear people on forums speaking about how your brother should have done this, or not done that, or whatever, just because he is a Christian. They deliberatley LOOK for things to bring him down on. Well, in a similar vein, dont go expecting perfection from Obama even if he is a Christian. Its easy to go looking at what Obama has done in an attempt to paint him as some terrible Christian. Words taken out of context, videos taken out of context. Its just not a nice thing to do. We dont like it when its done to Matt...so why should we do it to someone else whose in the limelight all the time.

If Obama says he is a Christian, then at worst he's a liar, and GOD will sort him out at the appropriate time, I just dont think he needs a The Republican Christian Right to go out of their way to try and show he's not. You dont know whats in his heart, and you never did answer my question as to why you raised the topic if not just to try and show him up. I think thats unfair and unbecoming if you dont mind me saying so :)

YOUR Standards...even Biblical Standards are UNATTAINABLE, that why we need GODs help.

adamt
10-24-2009, 12:37 PM
I think he's ignorant. I don't think it's intentional but I wouldn't put it past him. My point is only that even if it WAS intentional I don't know that it would fill the true definition of a false prophet.

Plenty of Christians intentionally twist scripture to fit their own selfish desires or agenda. And there are times where I've seen scripture twisted in an attempt to be good. When I was in high school and unsaved a pastors daughter named Anna passed me a note in class that had this scripture:



She did this because I had a really foul mouth in high school. Now this scripture has nothing to do with profanity so at best she misquoted or misapplied scripture at worst it was intentional. I don't think that makes her a false prophet.

So my take on Obama is simply this....

I can't stand him. :huh: I think he is going to do incredible damage to our country. I'm scared for our future when you look at his attitude towards Israel. I think he is the most unqualified President in my life time. I didn't vote for him and will be amazed if he makes it 4 years without being impeached. I think his policies are a joke and he's a socialist.

BUT.... I can't state for fact if he's a believer or not. Nobody can. That's the only point I've been trying to make. I look at his choices, his policies and how he lives his life and I highly doubt he is a believer. But his heart and relationship with Christ are unknown to me. So I won't say he is or isn't a Christian because I can't.

I will say that if he IS a Christian he is more a "cultural" Christian then anything, a trait extremely common in the African American community. IF he is a believer he needs to repent of some of his choices and learn to be a Christian first and a politician second.

My take anyway. :D


sounds good to me

it's all just semantics and truth be told we aren't disagreeing by much, you have a pretty good take on obama

and yes ALOT of scripture gets misquoted

Rev 3:20 is not an evangelistic verse yet gets used that way all the time.... drives me nuts :)

Mark
10-24-2009, 01:55 PM
Explain EXACTLY what you mean by taking your works with you??

its not like you get a token you can hand in at Judgement is it :laugh:


Rev. 20: 12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Mark
10-24-2009, 02:16 PM
The point is that here you are judging Obama, someone, I presume you've never met :huh: holding him to some high Standard, which whilst noble, is actually pointless to GOD, since he desires Perfection.

Why do you say that you are a christian and do the things he does? abbortion, support gay marriage, The LGBT rights and not recognizing the national day of prayer. why why why that is why I asked.
Your right I dont know whats in his heart, but I do know what he does. And I think that shows whats in his heart.

rearnakedchoke
10-24-2009, 02:16 PM
keep me out of this :) Unless you are willing to hear the truth unedited. :wink:
You are welcome as long as you play by the rules.

Come on, I am sure you can add something to this conversation ... we want to hear what you have to say on the topic ...

Tyburn
10-24-2009, 03:39 PM
Rev. 20: 12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

that just says everyone is judged. It implies you might be compensated for good works...but not that you "take your works" with you to heaven!

Besides...thats mainly a worry for the non-christians, because YOU will NOT be judged according to your works...for if you were judged on that alone, then EVERYONE would end up in Hell because we are incapable of being perfect.

We are pardoned of our Sins Mark, we are not sentanced by the Law for them anymore, but the heathen still are. Judgement for the Christian might carry shame, but it doesnt carry condemnation.

or...do you actually believe that only Christians who have done enough gooed works get to heaven?? surely you dont believe that :huh:

Tyburn
10-24-2009, 03:49 PM
Why do you say that you are a christian and do the things he does? abbortion, support gay marriage, The LGBT rights and not recognizing the national day of prayer. why why why that is why I asked.
Your right I dont know whats in his heart, but I do know what he does. And I think that shows whats in his heart.

Thank you, that makes more sense. Do you believe a Christian President should impose Christianity upon the Citizenry? Is that constitutional? I mean, how can you claim to allow freedom of faith, and then impose Christian Feasts and special recognition for them?

After you answer those Questions, I shall give you my answer...it might suprise you (unless you read the argument I had with Spiritwalker recently) :laugh:

Vizion
10-24-2009, 04:31 PM
ummm ... ahhhh ... i don't know what i am allowed to say ... LOL
Sorry man, that was a low blow :sad:

adamt
10-24-2009, 06:36 PM
Why do you say that you are a christian and do the things he does? abbortion, support gay marriage, The LGBT rights and not recognizing the national day of prayer. why why why that is why I asked.
Your right I dont know whats in his heart, but I do know what he does. And I think that shows whats in his heart.



Amen !!! Preach it brother!!!

That sums it up--- now you can pass the plate and we can all go home and take a nap

adamt
10-24-2009, 06:45 PM
Thank you, that makes more sense. Do you believe a Christian President should impose Christianity upon the Citizenry? Is that constitutional? I mean, how can you claim to allow freedom of faith, and then impose Christian Feasts and special recognition for them?

After you answer those Questions, I shall give you my answer...it might suprise you (unless you read the argument I had with Spiritwalker recently) :laugh:

The united states IS a christian nation...

Should an atheistic or paganistic president impose those on america?

There is no such thing as seperation of church and state..... you are imposing morals or lack thereof one way or another.... and barack is imposing a lack of morals.... an anti-christian religion if you will....

imposing christian feasts? We have a whole month devoted to black people, we even have a special day for their hero, mlk, jr.---- who was a womanizing adulterer, i don't think holidays are holydays anymore....

I think the president should impose his values on the country. The problem with barack is, he is so busy trying to be everything to everyone. He's a "christian" when it suits him--- quoting the Bible, and he's a muslim when it suits him--- quoting the quran.... he can even be an atheist and talk about seperating faith when it suits him.....

I just as soon he impose his values on us and let God do some judging..... who knows maybe that's what H1N1 is.... I wouldn't mind God stepping in and kicking some evil arse. Abortionists, sodomites (sorry dave, nothing personal), slluggards, adulterers, fornicators, etc...

donaldbreland
10-24-2009, 10:21 PM
Good post ADMT except fo rthe fact about the H1N1 thing. I do think you were joking about that but God is not the one who kills. The wicked one does that. God is full of love and wouldn't do that.

Crisco
10-24-2009, 10:29 PM
Good post ADMT except fo rthe fact about the H1N1 thing. I do think you were joking about that but God is not the one who kills. The wicked one does that. God is full of love and wouldn't do that.

Read your old testament brother.


God has smited MANY

Mark
10-25-2009, 12:01 AM
that just says everyone is judged. It implies you might be compensated for good works...but not that you "take your works" with you to heaven!

Besides...thats mainly a worry for the non-christians, because YOU will NOT be judged according to your works...for if you were judged on that alone, then EVERYONE would end up in Hell because we are incapable of being perfect.


Again I think you are wrong.I believe That you will be judged according to your works. For you crowns that you will get in heaven. This is for the believer not the non-believer, I don't think a non-believer will get judged

Philip. 4: 1
1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.
James 1: 12
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev. 2: 10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
1 Pet. 5: 4
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

This is why I don't believe non-believers will be judged.
Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I hope this makes sence, be waiting for your reply.

Mark
10-25-2009, 12:04 AM
Thank you, that makes more sense. Do you believe a Christian President should impose Christianity upon the Citizenry? Is that constitutional? I mean, how can you claim to allow freedom of faith, and then impose Christian Feasts and special recognition for them?

I think a christian president should act like a christian. Have christian values.

NateR
10-25-2009, 12:15 AM
Thank you, that makes more sense. Do you believe a Christian President should impose Christianity upon the Citizenry? Is that constitutional? I mean, how can you claim to allow freedom of faith, and then impose Christian Feasts and special recognition for them?

After you answer those Questions, I shall give you my answer...it might suprise you (unless you read the argument I had with Spiritwalker recently) :laugh:

The problem is that America was founded upon the Christian faith and it is integrated into every level of our government. However, Obama has been systematically dismantling any ties to Christianity in this country. A Christian President shouldn't force Christianity upon the population, however, he shouldn't be trying to eliminate it's influence either.

NateR
10-25-2009, 12:22 AM
I think a christian president should act like a christian. Have christian values.

Just the fact that Obama is Pro-Choice is the greatest argument against his "Christian values."

Back in the days of Nazi Germany, the crematoriums in the Concentration Camps would close on Sundays to allow the German guards and operators to attend church services. So they would go to church on Sunday morning, then be right back on Monday cremating thousands of Jewish people every week. Those Germans would have called themselves Christians, but wouldn't it be pretty easy to see that they most definitely were not?

donaldbreland
10-25-2009, 01:13 AM
So what your saying Crisco is that God kills people today. I think the wicked one is the one who kills. I don't think for one minute God would take someones life out of anger.

donaldbreland
10-25-2009, 01:22 AM
Isaiah 54:8
8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
God does not like sin, He loves the sinner but not the act. He hates sin so much he cannot stand to look at it , so in a little wrath He hides his face from you when you sin, meaning He gives you up to what you have chosen. God does not force, that is Satan's government of sin. He forces people not God.

Lamentations3:22
22It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Amazing, it is by His mercies we are still a life. Why someone who would die for you would want to kill you? He loves you so much

text in the Bible contradict themselves.
1 Chronicles 10: 13-14
13So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse
This verse clearly shows that God killed Saul but look at how he really died in 1 Chron 10:4 -6
4Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
5And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died.
6So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together.
Saul clearly killed himself not God. This is known as the language problem. God's wrath=terrible separation

Malachi 3:6
6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God never changes. For him to be a horrible God in the Old and a sweet One in the New means He would have had to change and he clearly says here he does not change so He has always been merciful.

donaldbreland
10-25-2009, 01:23 AM
For you who think God kills you really need to sit back and ask yourself if you are a Christian. He does not Kill people. Our God is a graceful God.

donaldbreland
10-25-2009, 01:31 AM
I understand that is says how God flooded the earth and killed people but that is different than whats going on today. Please tell me where it states that God is a killer?

Tyburn
10-25-2009, 01:36 AM
The problem is that America was founded upon the Christian faith and it is integrated into every level of our government. However, Obama has been systematically dismantling any ties to Christianity in this country. A Christian President shouldn't force Christianity upon the population, however, he shouldn't be trying to eliminate it's influence either.

Thats true, if its true he's doing that and not just your perception, then yes.

Tyburn
10-25-2009, 01:39 AM
Again I think you are wrong.I believe That you will be judged according to your works. For you crowns that you will get in heaven. This is for the believer not the non-believer, I don't think a non-believer will get judged

Philip. 4: 1
1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.
James 1: 12
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev. 2: 10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
1 Pet. 5: 4
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

This is why I don't believe non-believers will be judged.
Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I hope this makes sence, be waiting for your reply.


what happens to the Heathen if they dont go through Judgement?? I thought Judgement was for everyone...but that for the Christian the Judgement doesnt translate to a sentance, whereas for the heathen it does.

I see...so what you really mean is your works translate to rewards in heaven. Wish you'd just said that Mark :laugh: I aggree with that :)

Tyburn
10-25-2009, 01:50 AM
I think a christian president should act like a christian. Have christian values.

:)

I think that to be a President of the United States, its AS important to be a Christian as it is to be a Citizen, because the founders of your Nation based it on Christianity.

The United States is not about Freedom to express any Faith you want. Its about Freedom between Denominations of Christianity that in other countries (like mine) went through a phase of killing you depending on which denomination you were part of because you worshipped differently. Freedom of Religion is correctly interpreted only as, Freedom of denominational membership of the Christian Church. Freedom under GOD, therefore is more to do with casting your burden onto GOD and getting a lighter yolk, its NOT the freedom to do whatever you want.

Most Americans would dissagree with that, but they are applying an extremely liberal interpretation to the values of the Founders, early Presidents, at least up as far as the culmination of the Civil War would seemingly have aggreed.

So America, you see, was conceived as being perfectly ballenced, and the problems are those checks and ballences have gone astray and the people dont wish to acknowledge what their forefathers thought, they would rather spout a revisionist secular history, then admit what is written in stone on your buildings and monuments.

America is not a real Republic, its a Monarchy with Jesus as the King, and under him the Government rule as a Democratic Republic. But they have forgotten who their King is :sad:

I believe this was by design. I believe strongly that in order to preserve Christianity through the years of Secularism, modernism brought on by The Philosophical Enlightenment, the fall of Rome, the Reformational persecutions, GOD needed a new beacon, and he inspired your forefathers in a similar way to Moses, and they set up the perfectly ballences Society. That at least functioned between the The War of Independance and The American Civil War...beyond that I dont have enough knowledge to tell you when Standards started to Slip...but they didnt slip til AFTER Lincoln

The idea of separation of Church and State was to stop one denomination from gaining power, it was never considered that this would be a battle between different Faiths. With the Assumption that all would obviously be Christian, because all were obviously American, what it stopped was a Roman Catholic becoming President and executing all the Anglicans, or Vice Versa. Because obviously people like to claim that the dis-establishement of the Church means that the forefathers never wanted a Christian Influence in politics...and thats bollox...they just didnt want ONE Denomination to impose its will. They wanted TRUE Christianity, The WHOLE Church, All Denominations, and that Freedom to be part of the System.

adamt
10-25-2009, 02:19 AM
For you who think God kills you really need to sit back and ask yourself if you are a Christian. He does not Kill people. Our God is a graceful God.

I understand that is says how God flooded the earth and killed people but that is different than whats going on today. Please tell me where it states that God is a killer?

So what your saying Crisco is that God kills people today. I think the wicked one is the one who kills. I don't think for one minute God would take someones life out of anger.

Isaiah 54:8
8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
God does not like sin, He loves the sinner but not the act. He hates sin so much he cannot stand to look at it , so in a little wrath He hides his face from you when you sin, meaning He gives you up to what you have chosen. God does not force, that is Satan's government of sin. He forces people not God.

Lamentations3:22
22It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Amazing, it is by His mercies we are still a life. Why someone who would die for you would want to kill you? He loves you so much

text in the Bible contradict themselves.
1 Chronicles 10: 13-14
13So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse
This verse clearly shows that God killed Saul but look at how he really died in 1 Chron 10:4 -6
4Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
5And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died.
6So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together.
Saul clearly killed himself not God. This is known as the language problem. God's wrath=terrible separation

Malachi 3:6
6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God never changes. For him to be a horrible God in the Old and a sweet One in the New means He would have had to change and he clearly says here he does not change so He has always been merciful.




okay #1 are you serious, or are you just joking with us?

#2 if you tell me you are serious. and if you can convince me you're not trolling, and you're seriously a young christian that is open to "disipleship", i'll discuss this with you and point out to you how terribly misinformed you are.... understandbly and commonly made mistake... yet terribly wrong

NateR
10-25-2009, 02:27 AM
For you who think God kills you really need to sit back and ask yourself if you are a Christian. He does not Kill people. Our God is a graceful God.

I understand that is says how God flooded the earth and killed people but that is different than whats going on today. Please tell me where it states that God is a killer?

Read Revelation 19:11-21, it describes the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and it's pretty much going to be a bloodbath, with Jesus slaughtering EVERYONE who stands against Israel. In fact, Jesus will kill so many people on His return, that all the birds of the Earth will be fat with the flesh of the dead (v. 21). This is the Battle of Armageddon which will institute the 1000 Year Reign of Jesus Christ. However Armageddon will pale in comparison to the number of people that GOD will kill in the Battle of Gog and Magog (which takes place after the 1000 Year Reign).

Those are New Testament verses, there is plenty in the Old Testament about GOD killing people or ordering His People to kill people.

Genesis 38:7-10:
7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD, and the LORD killed him. 8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also.

Tyburn
10-25-2009, 02:30 AM
However Armageddon will pale in comparison to the number of people that GOD will kill in the Battle of Gog and Magog (which takes place after the 1000 Year Reign).



I thought those two battles were the other way round. Armageddon is the last battle...isnt it AFTER the Millenial Reign :huh:

NateR
10-25-2009, 02:33 AM
I thought those two battles were the other way round. Armageddon is the last battle...isnt it AFTER the Millenial Reign :huh:

Nope, because Armageddon takes place in Revelation chapter 19 and the 1000 Year Reign takes place in chapter 20. :)

Tyburn
10-25-2009, 02:35 AM
Nope, because Armageddon takes place in Revelation chapter 19 and the 1000 Year Reign takes place in chapter 20. :)

:blink: ohh...is the battle of G and M fought AT Armageddon though? I mean the place??

donaldbreland
10-25-2009, 04:52 AM
No I'm not trolling and I believe what I read. I will read what information nate has given me. I am young at Christianity. If I get something wrong I will learn from what I read. I bet the first time you guys started reading you didn't know it all. To say that our God created a flu to kill people is so not the truth. I appreciate people giving me information. I will read everything you tell me to read. But saying our God is killer is wrong. He may kill people at Armageddon but this is not Armageddon. Again I am not trolling. I am learning and sometimes you have to make mistakes to learn.

NateR
10-25-2009, 06:27 AM
:blink: ohh...is the battle of G and M fought AT Armageddon though? I mean the place??

I've always understood that Gog and Magog would be fought in Jerusalem.

Tyburn
10-25-2009, 07:08 AM
I've always understood that Gog and Magog would be fought in Jerusalem.

Armageddon is a Valley of waste, just outside of Jerusalem. Are we sure these are two different Battles fought at the same place, or the same battle? The Battle of Armageddon, is actually the battle AT Armageddon, which is right outside of Jerusalem, its some kinda large Valley, I think to the North of the city but I cant remember, I know you can stand on some famous hill, and look one way upon the city, and the next way into some vast valley full of pretty much nothing.

I've never heard that there would be a battle before the Millenial Reign. I thought Jesus would return and be instituted without any battle as he would be instantly recognised by all. I thought that his very arrival would spell imediate incarceration of his enemies, until he voluntarily releases them after Judgement which I presume is done during the Millenial Reign.

Then I believe that the forces which he has let go mount an attack on Jerusalem in order to capture the city I presume, and are met by GOD outside the city boundaries in the wasteland known as Armageddon, during which Evil is finnally defeated.

I then thought Hell itself was distroyed in the lake of fire, and that was the end of History in Creation. I assumed G and M were just names of people or empires which formed the forces of darkness AT Armageddon...I never thought there was two battles, and if I did, I never thought there was one Prior to the Millenial Reign

NateR
10-25-2009, 05:17 PM
Armageddon is a Valley of waste, just outside of Jerusalem. Are we sure these are two different Battles fought at the same place, or the same battle? The Battle of Armageddon, is actually the battle AT Armageddon, which is right outside of Jerusalem, its some kinda large Valley, I think to the North of the city but I cant remember, I know you can stand on some famous hill, and look one way upon the city, and the next way into some vast valley full of pretty much nothing.

I've never heard that there would be a battle before the Millenial Reign. I thought Jesus would return and be instituted without any battle as he would be instantly recognised by all. I thought that his very arrival would spell imediate incarceration of his enemies, until he voluntarily releases them after Judgement which I presume is done during the Millenial Reign.

Then I believe that the forces which he has let go mount an attack on Jerusalem in order to capture the city I presume, and are met by GOD outside the city boundaries in the wasteland known as Armageddon, during which Evil is finnally defeated.

I then thought Hell itself was distroyed in the lake of fire, and that was the end of History in Creation. I assumed G and M were just names of people or empires which formed the forces of darkness AT Armageddon...I never thought there was two battles, and if I did, I never thought there was one Prior to the Millenial Reign

Actually your geography is way off. Armageddon is simply a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase Har Meggido, meaning the "mountain of Meggido." Meggido is 40-50 miles to the north of Jerusalem:
http://www.mapquest.com/mq/4-CfLRegki

Tyburn
10-25-2009, 08:36 PM
Actually your geography is way off. Armageddon is simply a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase Har Meggido, meaning the "mountain of Meggido." Meggido is 40-50 miles to the north of Jerusalem:
http://www.mapquest.com/mq/4-CfLRegki

:blink: no Armageddon is not a mountain, its a valley, it was sometimes thought to be the Valley where Ezekiel sees the dry bones...I'm sure thats supposed to be the same valley, and I'm sure its outside Jerusalem...I remember seeing it on The GOD channel once :laugh: this lady was sat near a hill and pointed one way to Jerusalem and one way to Armageddon.

I'll do some research when I get back from dinner. :)

Conrad
10-26-2009, 08:05 AM
I've always understood that Gog and Magog would be fought in Jerusalem.

Thanks Nate for the clarity on Har Megiddo...saved me some typing. :)


Gog and Magog, I thought, were north of Israel, extending from roughly Assyria, maybe to Persia, to the Moscow area and as far west as western Ukraine. The point of Gog/Magog gathering in battle in Ezekiel 38 appears to be that the whole world is against Israel in the scene, rather than between G&M. What am I missing

Side note:
There are some interpretations of mat-Gog meaning "land of Gog" or "prince of Gog" (these are mutually exclusive). I have a footnote that says "The gloss Magog may be an Akkadian expression, mat-Gog, 'the land of Gog.'" This footnote doesn't fit their own translation in the text which says "land of Magog" and would render that redundant. :wacko: Weren't many lands named after a forefather? A quick search in e-sword and there's often a name in a genealogy to match lands named later.


Regarding a Valley, DAve might be thinking of the Valley of Hammon-gog, Ezekiel 39.

Tyburn
10-26-2009, 01:15 PM
:sad: Now you've all confused me.

I was taught that there is ONE Battle AFTER the Millenial Reign. That it happens in a Valley right outside of Jerusalem, and that its the same Valley where Ezekiel saw the dry bones.


Now you give me Magiddo, which IS a Mountain at one end of a VERY big Valley, but Jerusalem isnt at the other end of it, at least not Directly. This Valley is called Jezreel...I think it would be too liberal an interpretation to claim thats directly outside Jerusalem...it depends where you think the Valley ends...yes it can be connected by a network of Valleys.

Then you tell me about Hamon-gog...well you'd have a hard time seeing Jerusalem from the middle of Assyria wouldnt you! That Valley is another Jezreel sized Valley...but its even further away from Jerusalem and in the opposite direction.

So now I dont know anymore :unsure-1:

Chuck
10-27-2009, 02:48 AM
The Kidron Valley is where the battle will take place. I believe that's what you're trying to think of...

It's my understanding that there will be only 1 battle after the millennial reign. Most scholars believe it will be the battle of Gog and Magog but some do hold to the opinion that Gog and Magog is first and the battle of Armageddon is after the reign. I don't hold to that theory.

donaldbreland
10-27-2009, 03:36 AM
Something Interesting i found.


Revelation 16 : 1,2, 12-21 [KJ21]


1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

2 And the first went and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men who had the mark of the beast and upon them that worshiped his image.

...

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.


13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


14 For they are the spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world to gather them for the battle of that great Day of God Almighty.


15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."


16 And he gathered them together at a place called in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon.


17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of Heaven from the throne, saying, "IT IS DONE!"


18 And there were voices and thunders and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so great.


19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and great Babylon came to remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.


20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

donaldbreland
10-27-2009, 03:37 AM
http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/armaggedon.html

Neezar
10-27-2009, 03:39 AM
So did we ever figure out if Obama is a Christian? :unsure-1:


:laugh:

donaldbreland
10-27-2009, 03:50 AM
The final confrontation

The Bible tells us there will be any number of battles which will take place during the Tribulation Period, including God's destruction of the Antichrist's seat of global governmental power (Babylon the Great), but the final conclusive battle is the one most of us think of when we speak of Armageddon.

Although many people envision the armies of man destroying one another in nuclear warfare when Armageddon is mentioned, that isn't the description the Bible gives us concerning what is going to take place, as I stated earlier. Although nuclear weapons assuredly will have been used by the armies of the world leading up to the event, the Battle of Armageddon will be not be a battle between the forces of mankind against one another, but the armies of earth against the returning Christ!

In preparation for Christ's return, God will lead the armies of the earth to the Middle East where they will surround Jerusalem. The forces of the Antichrist will be there, as well as the armies of the kings of the east - a group of nations which will have crossed a dried-up Euphrates River (Revelation 16:12) marching toward Jerusalem.

Revelation 16:16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

By the time these forces are gathered, the Antichrist will be close to achieving his goal of committing genocide against the Jewish people, having killed 2/3 of them. In their moment of desperation, the Jewish nation will cry out to the Lord Jesus Christ and He will hear them! The Battle of Armageddon will then begin in earnest!

Zechariah 13:8-9: "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God"

Visualize this as you read on! Burn it into your memory!

Upon hearing the cry of His people, the Lord will gather the armies of Heaven - the saints of God who accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior prior to the Rapture of the Church. These saints - even YOU if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior - will accompany Christ when He makes His triumphant ride to earth to take the planet away from those who have nearly destroyed it.

At the time of Christ's return at the Battle of Armageddon, the Bible tells us the world - likely as a result of nuclear warfare (nuclear winter), volcanic eruptions, and objects striking the earth from space - will be enveloped in darkness.

Matthew 24:29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Suddenly, as the survivors of the seven-year Tribulation Period are huddled in darkness wondering what is going to come next, a burst of energy like a bolt of lightning will envelope the world in light.

As unrepentant mankind looks up, the nations will see the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens and begin to wail because they will know they have waited too long to accept Him and their fate is sealed. It is within that period of time Jesus Christ, whose countenance will be shining like the sun, will appear in the skies dressed for battle!

Matthew 24:27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 19:11-13: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Upon the Lord's feet touching the earth in Jerusalem, His power will be so immense the Mount of Olives will melt like wax beneath His feet and split right down the middle! Jesus Christ has returned!

Zechariah 14:4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Squaring off against the armies of the Antichrist upon His return, Jesus will destroy them all, not with swords, rockets, tanks, or aircraft, but with the sword that proceeds out of His mouth - the Word of God. For all it's hype, the battle of Armageddon will be over in an instant! The Antichrist's attempt to stand against Christ will amount to nothing! Jesus will speak and it will be GAME OVER for the Antichrist.

In the aftermath of the Lord's victory, He will seize the Antichrist and his False Prophet, cast them into Hell, and set up His Millennial Kingdom upon the earth where Christ will reign from Jerusalem for a period of 1,000 years prior to the beginning of Christ's eternal reign.

Are we close to Armageddon?

As you have just read, the event that will begin the Tribulation Period leading up to the Battle of Armageddon will be a peace plan seven years in length between Israel and her enemies. As I'm sure you're aware, all the world's leaders are currently striving to get such a plan in place.

Soon, I believe, a leader from the European Union will come forward with this plan and the clock will begin counting down the final seven years of history prior to the return of Christ and the establishment of His Kingdom on earth.

If you're reading this and you're a Christian, there is more reason to believe the Rapture of the Church may be coming in the near future to remove you and the rest of the Church from the earth in preparation for God to administer His wrath against a world that has rejected Him than at any previous time in recorded history. As such, we need to be reaching out to the lost, trying to lead them to the only hope of salvation for mankind - a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. While our safety as a Church is assured in the Scriptures, there are many who are going to find themselves left behind if we don't act now so it's imperative we lead as many as we can to Christ while we're still here to do so.

If you're reading this having never accepted Christ, you need to do so at once! Only those who've accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be spared the horrors of the Tribulation Period when He comes for His Church so you'd be wise to be ready to go! Want to know how you can accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? Click HERE.

donaldbreland
10-27-2009, 04:07 AM
Boy I am confused lol. I started fully reading the Bible this year and I went from reading Genesis to talking about Revelation.

To who ever I said that God doesn't Kill I think I took that way out on context. I was thinking that you were saying he Killed in a bad way. Now I believe I see what your saying. The way I take it is God kills evil. I don't think he would Kill a good person. That would support my case that he wouldn't create a Flu to kill people because kids have died from it. I do however think the devil would do something like that. I know I am new to this but I want to thank everyone for all the great information. You all are making me a better Christian. pretty soon I will be worthy of debating the Bible with y'all. Thanks everyone. Keep the information coming.

Chuck I have to say I do not know what your talking about with that one valley. Is that even a Christian belief? Just asking.

Chuck
10-27-2009, 04:26 AM
Boy I am confused lol. I started fully reading the Bible this year and I went from reading Genesis to talking about Revelation.

To who ever I said that God doesn't Kill I think I took that way out on context. I was thinking that you were saying he Killed in a bad way. Now I believe I see what your saying. The way I take it is God kills evil. I don't think he would Kill a good person. That would support my case that he wouldn't create a Flu to kill people because kids have died from it. I do however think the devil would do something like that. I know I am new to this but I want to thank everyone for all the great information. You all are making me a better Christian. pretty soon I will be worthy of debating the Bible with y'all. Thanks everyone. Keep the information coming.

Chuck I have to say I do not know what your talking about with that one valley. Is that even a Christian belief? Just asking.

LOL... It's in your Bible :wink: Research it yourself... you might find it interesting.

Vizion
10-27-2009, 12:10 PM
So did we ever figure out if Obama is a Christian? :unsure-1: (Sigh) don't you ever pay any attention to GOD?

1 John 3:24-4:6

And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater that he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Clearly Obama is not Christian. His actions speak louder than his words, but even his own words have condemned him. Saying you are a Christian means nothing. Following Christ by dying to yourself, taking up the cross and repentence of your sin marks you saved. Obama is a socialist, a heretic and a blasphemer. Pretty sure he's not Christian...am I false to say this?

Chuck
10-27-2009, 11:03 PM
(Sigh) don't you ever pay any attention to GOD?

1 John 3:24-4:6

And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater that he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Clearly Obama is not Christian. His actions speak louder than his words, but even his own words have condemned him. Saying you are a Christian means nothing. Following Christ by dying to yourself, taking up the cross and repentence of your sin marks you saved. Obama is a socialist, a heretic and a blasphemer. Pretty sure he's not Christian...am I false to say this?

Yes actually you are. :sad:

And taking Scripture out of context too. :sad:

Tyburn
10-28-2009, 01:07 AM
The Kidron Valley is where the battle will take place. I believe that's what you're trying to think of...

It's my understanding that there will be only 1 battle after the millennial reign. Most scholars believe it will be the battle of Gog and Magog but some do hold to the opinion that Gog and Magog is first and the battle of Armageddon is after the reign. I don't hold to that theory.

:) thank you chuck...but Kidron doesnt ring a bell either :blink:

Tyburn
10-28-2009, 01:08 AM
So did we ever figure out if Obama is a Christian? :unsure-1:


:laugh:

I think Mark gave up on responding to me.

What can I say...I have invincible Stamina in the online world :laugh:

Mark
10-28-2009, 02:44 AM
(Sigh) don't you ever pay any attention to GOD?

1 John 3:24-4:6

And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater that he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Clearly Obama is not Christian. His actions speak louder than his words, but even his own words have condemned him. Saying you are a Christian means nothing. Following Christ by dying to yourself, taking up the cross and repentence of your sin marks you saved. Obama is a socialist, a heretic and a blasphemer. Pretty sure he's not Christian...am I false to say this?

This is what I believe.

NateR
10-28-2009, 02:44 AM
I think Mark gave up on responding to me.

What can I say...I have invincible Stamina in the online world :laugh:

Translation: I have no life.

:tongue0011:

Vizion
10-28-2009, 01:18 PM
Yes actually you are. :sad:

And taking Scripture out of context too. :sad: No I'm not. You must be reading it wrong....again Chuck.
:blink:

Explain your position.

Chuck
10-28-2009, 05:01 PM
No I'm not. You must be reading it wrong....again Chuck.
:blink:

Explain your position.

Wrong because it dosen't justify your feelings for Obama??? :huh:

Read the passage in the original context. Jesus is teaching how to discern a false prophet... Nate can address this point better then I can but there had been many, many false prophets who came before Christ claiming to be the messiah to the Jews.... this scripture has nothing to do with discerning the salvation of someone who professes Christ.

The scripture is for discerning a false prophet, someone like Jim Jones or David Koresh...

IF we are saved by faith and grace... tell me how do you measure those? Can you see God's grace? A man's faith? His heart? When you start looking to a man's actions to discern his faith you're coming dangerously close to a works based salvation and that's not at all the message of Christ.

Our works/actions determine our reward at the Bema seat, not our presence or absence from the Great White Throne.

All anybody on this thread has done is looked at Obama's actions and decided to judge his salvation based on them. That's awfully close to heresy.

Your sin. My sin. ALL of our sins are just as reprehensible to Christ as Obama's. You simply can't look at a persons actions and decide if they are or are not a Christian. We have not the right or the ability to do that and you will not find any scripture to justify that. Stop looking at Obama's actions through your eyes and try to look at them through the eyes of Christ. When you do that you will realize that our actions are no different to Christ then Obama's.

The Bible is crystal clear on a few points....

We're all sinners.
All sin is equal in the sight of the Lord
Nobody is righteous.
We're saved by faith & grace. OUR faith, HIS grace.
Salvation AND forgiveness is available to everyone.
Salvation is found in the heart of a man.
NOBODY but God knows a man's heart.

donaldbreland
10-28-2009, 11:51 PM
One way we can tell if someone is not a Christian is by someone saying it out of their own mouth. I showed a video of Obama saying his Muslim faith. Now I did do what you said to Chuck by praying for Obama every night. I have a 6 year old son that can't stand Obama because of what he hears in school. He formed his own opinion of him because me my wife and I never speak politics around our kids. What we have now done is added a prayer to God about Obama in my kids prayers. Just because it's the right thing to do.

I showed a video and you shot them down Chuck. Can you show me evidence that Obama is a Christian? actions speak louder than words man. By the way Chuck thanks so much for all your help on Revelation and thanks to you Nate as well.

Tyburn
10-28-2009, 11:51 PM
Translation: I have no life.

:tongue0011:

:angry:

I do have a life.

Its called....































posting here :unsure-1:

:laugh:

Mark
10-29-2009, 04:20 AM
The Bible is crystal clear on a few points....

We're all sinners.
All sin is equal in the sight of the Lord
Nobody is righteous.
We're saved by faith & grace. OUR faith, HIS grace.
Salvation AND forgiveness is available to everyone.
Salvation is found in the heart of a man.
NOBODY but God knows a man's heart.

Could you give me some Bible verses for sin is equal?

Mark
10-29-2009, 04:36 AM
Chuck did you vote for Obama?

MattHughesRocks
10-29-2009, 04:43 AM
Me to. I need proof :unsure-1:

Could you give me some Bible verses for sin is equal?

NateR
10-29-2009, 04:57 AM
I don't think there is anything in the Bible that states all sins are equal. Our status as sinners is the same no matter who we are, because none of us is capable of doing enough good works to earn our salvation. However, I think the various punishments prescribed for different crimes in the Old Testament is the best evidence that all sins are not equal in the eyes of GOD.

Mark
10-29-2009, 04:59 AM
I don't think there is anything in the Bible that states all sins are equal. Our status as sinners is the same no matter who we are, because none of us is capable of doing enough good works to earn our salvation. However, I think the various punishments prescribed for different crimes in the Old Testament is the best evidence that all sins are not equal in the eyes of GOD.

I was asking Chuck since it is crystal clear.

Chuck
10-29-2009, 05:15 AM
Chuck did you vote for Obama?


So my take on Obama is simply this....

I can't stand him. :huh: I think he is going to do incredible damage to our country. I'm scared for our future when you look at his attitude towards Israel. I think he is the most unqualified President in my life time. I didn't vote for him and will be amazed if he makes it 4 years without being impeached. I think his policies are a joke and he's a socialist.

BUT.... I can't state for fact if he's a believer or not. Nobody can. That's the only point I've been trying to make. I look at his choices, his policies and how he lives his life and I highly doubt he is a believer. But his heart and relationship with Christ are unknown to me. So I won't say he is or isn't a Christian because I can't.

I will say that if he IS a Christian he is more a "cultural" Christian then anything, a trait extremely common in the African American community. IF he is a believer he needs to repent of some of his choices and learn to be a Christian first and a politician second.

My take anyway. :D

You do read the posts in the thread don't you Mark?? :D

A little emphasis added so you don't miss it this time... :tongue0011:

Chuck
10-29-2009, 05:17 AM
I was asking Chuck since it is crystal clear.

:stirthepot:

:Whistle:

Mark
10-29-2009, 05:17 AM
Now answer the real question.

Crisco
10-29-2009, 05:30 AM
I think it could be argued that the different physical punishments in the bible mean our sins on Earth are not equal.

If all sin is forgivable through repenting then in theory it could be said they are all equal.

NateR
10-29-2009, 05:31 AM
John 19:11 - Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given to you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Clearly Jesus taught that there are different degrees of sin.

Chuck
10-29-2009, 05:37 AM
Me to. I need proof :unsure-1:

Careful with the need for proof... we walk by faith and not by sight remember?

But I'll be happy to answer you as opposed to Mark since he's just bored and looking to stir up a fight tonight.... :D

Their is not a Scripture that specifically says all sins are equal in the Bible but we can reach that conclusion by looking more at who God is then what sin is...

Imagine a wall painted so white that it hurts your eyes to look at it.... that would be Christ. Holiness beyond description. Sinless. Perfect. Blameless. Now imagine taking a paint brush and flicking black paint on it....

stealing... rape.... murder.... lying.... lust... each speck of paint is a different sin... some specks larger then others.... but which one is more black?? :huh:

Each sin, when compared against the righteousness of Christ is equal. No one speck of paint is any more black then the other. When we focus on the sin we overlook the Savior. We can't look at wrath equaling murder and think "That's not fair!" When we do that we're saying God just isn't that holy... He just isn't that righteous.. but HE IS!

Now the specks differ in size (punishment) or shape (severity) but in comparison to the righteousness of Christ.. they are all equal. Make sense Michelle?

1 John 3:15 (New International Version)

15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

This is one of many scriptures that compares 2 things that have different consequences and penalties in OUR eyes but God makes them equal in HIS eyes.

I borrowed this from a different website...

All sin, no matter how “small,” is against an infinite and eternal God, and is therefore worthy of an infinite and eternal penalty. Further, there is no sin too “big” that God cannot forgive it. Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2). Jesus died for all of our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21). Are all sins equal to God? Yes and no. In severity? No. In penalty? Yes. In forgivability? Yes.

I hope this helps answer your question Michelle... :wink:

Chuck
10-29-2009, 05:47 AM
John 19:11 - Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given to you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Clearly Jesus taught that there are different degrees of sin.

Where did He teach that and what does this have to do with Obama being a Christian?

Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Which degree is lust and which degree is adultery? They seem pretty equal to me in this passage. :huh:

NateR
10-29-2009, 05:54 AM
Where did He teach that and what does this have to do with Obama being a Christian?

This is what's known as an "off topic discussion." :wink:

Which degree is lust and which degree is adultery? They seem pretty equal to me in this passage. :huh:

That passage was more about self-righteousness than degrees of sin. If you look at a woman and lust after her then, yes, you have committed a sin, but it's not the same sin as adultery. Primarily because the consequences are very different. You can't get a woman pregnant with your eyeballs, thus you can't say that the degrees of the sin are the same. Do you really believe Jesus was saying that if you look at a woman and are attracted to her, then you might as well have sex with her because you're already sinning by lusting after her?

MattHughesRocks
10-29-2009, 06:05 AM
Thanks Chuck :rolleyes: I was totally off before :unsure-1:

Faith...yes...I'm a horrible Christian :ninja:

Careful with the need for proof... we walk by faith and not by sight remember?

But I'll be happy to answer you as opposed to Mark since he's just bored and looking to stir up a fight tonight.... :D

Their is not a Scripture that specifically says all sins are equal in the Bible but we can reach that conclusion by looking more at who God is then what sin is...

Imagine a wall painted so white that it hurts your eyes to look at it.... that would be Christ. Holiness beyond description. Sinless. Perfect. Blameless. Now imagine taking a paint brush and flicking black paint on it....

stealing... rape.... murder.... lying.... lust... each speck of paint is a different sin... some specks larger then others.... but which one is more black?? :huh:

Each sin, when compared against the righteousness of Christ is equal. No one speck of paint is any more black then the other. When we focus on the sin we overlook the Savior. We can't look at wrath equaling murder and think "That's not fair!" When we do that we're saying God just isn't that holy... He just isn't that righteous.. but HE IS!

Now the specks differ in size (punishment) or shape (severity) but in comparison to the righteousness of Christ.. they are all equal. Make sense Michelle?



This is one of many scriptures that compares 2 things that have different consequences and penalties in OUR eyes but God makes them equal in HIS eyes.

I borrowed this from a different website...



I hope this helps answer your question Michelle... :wink:

Chuck
10-29-2009, 06:12 AM
This is what's known as an "off topic discussion." :wink:

:laugh::laugh: Touche'

That passage was more about self-righteousness than degrees of sin.
Agreed. :wink: But it's 1am and I'm tired.. it was the first one that came to me...

If you look at a woman and lust after her then, yes, you have committed a sin, but it's not the same sin as adultery.
Again I agree. It's not the same sin.. but it's an equal sin to Christ.

Primarily because the consequences are very different. You can't get a woman pregnant with your eyeballs,
Don't tell that to CountyMike!!!

thus you can't say that the degrees of the sin are the same.
Where does the Bible teach us which one is more sinful??

Do you really believe Jesus was saying that if you look at a woman and are attracted to her, then you might as well have sex with her because you're already sinning by lusting after her?
Nope. But in all honest there are times I wish that's exactly what He meant!!! :D


You and I are probably more in agreement then disagreement. I think it's about perspective...

This is a weak analogy I'm admitting that ahead of time... but I just went to the kitchen to grab a glass of milk. (OK.. truth be told the house is asleep and I drank from the jug but don't tell Jen!!!!) Anyway... I digress.....

Take a gallon of milk (adultery) and a shot glass of milk (lust) and compare them. Are they equal? Of course they aren't! Or are they?

If the question is...

Which one is more milk? They are equal. They are both 100% milk.
Which one is more liquid? They are equal. They are both 100% liquid.
Which one is colder? With some assumptions based on mass.. they are equal.

One is larger. One has more mass. One will fill you up more. But they are equal. They are also different. It depends on perspective.

When viewed from the perspective of Christ against His righteousness... all sin is equal.

When viewed from our eyes and factoring the consequences and penalties... all sin is not equal.

My .02 worth anyway... :cool:

Conrad
10-29-2009, 07:42 AM
So did we ever figure out if Obama is a Christian? :unsure-1:


:laugh:

Shhhh...

Not now Neez, I'm catching up on the thread. I've not been here for days and can't believe this thread is still going. Popcorn?

Part of the out-of-context argument that came up looks like the issue of using how to evaluate a prophet for how to evaluate a non-prophet leader. He's a political leader, so do the same criteria apply? Perhaps, but it's debatable. I know people have applied that to teachers before, who are also not prophets, as well as to see if one is a believer, but for self examination. So, is the false-prophet test applicable to regular believers? More importantly, why or why not?

side note: sorry if we all got the valley wrong. We're just trying to help. Besides, it's your memory, Dave. :tongue0011:

Conrad
10-29-2009, 08:01 AM
This is what's known as an "off topic discussion." :wink:



That passage was more about self-righteousness than degrees of sin. If you look at a woman and lust after her then, yes, you have committed a sin, but it's not the same sin as adultery. Primarily because the consequences are very different. You can't get a woman pregnant with your eyeballs, thus you can't say that the degrees of the sin are the same. Do you really believe Jesus was saying that if you look at a woman and are attracted to her, then you might as well have sex with her because you're already sinning by lusting after her?

Are you sure that it's not the same as adultery? Granted, I can't get her pregnant with my eyeballs, but the heart issues is what's at stake in this discussion. Look at Jesus' words again:

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

It says that he has already committed adultery, albeit in heart, but still committed. In other words, regardless of physicality, this is adultery. In application, should we care, then, about supposed (in-)equalities? What should we tell County Mike?


Shifting back to the other...

I think the equality of sin idea/issue could start in Romans 3 or Galatians:Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

The popular verse is 23, but the application here is from that the law brings the knowledge of sin, and all are guilty (whether they acknowledge it or not). In essence, what the law brings us to (see Gal) is that all sin separates us from God (Gal, that we need a saviour, so law brings us to Christ). Now, including a passage that escapes me at the moment, we move to this idea... In the sense of being condemned, the law shows us that all sin is equal in its effect of separating us from God for condemnation. This is not a comparison for severity in other senses, such as killing progress in the believer's walk, severity of disruption of the believer's fellowship with God, nor how God assigned the varied punishments/sacrifices in the Mosaic law. I think that's where the "all sin is equal" bit comes from, that all sin separates us from God, and doesn't apply elsewhere. Sorry if the writing's poor; I'm starting to get drowsy & still haven't PM'd boomer.

I hope that helps.















BTW, Obama's a sinner.
He also doesn't like criticism (insecurities?)
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/obama_trying_to_suppress_free_speech_of_critics/
There are other stories, but they're harder to find up front with "critic" bringing up healthcare articles. So, I wonder if Mark will get arrested for starting this thread.

Goodnight. :sleep:

Tyburn
10-29-2009, 01:40 PM
Could you give me some Bible verses for sin is equal?

The Wages of Sin is Death.

Any Sin. All sin. All punishable by the same thing according to GOD, because he demands Perfection.

Tyburn
10-29-2009, 01:42 PM
John 19:11 - Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given to you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Clearly Jesus taught that there are different degrees of sin.

thats greater as in "he has more sin" not "the sin he has is worse sin" :rolleyes:

Tyburn
10-29-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't think there is anything in the Bible that states all sins are equal. Our status as sinners is the same no matter who we are, because none of us is capable of doing enough good works to earn our salvation. However, I think the various punishments prescribed for different crimes in the Old Testament is the best evidence that all sins are not equal in the eyes of GOD.

thats more about atonement under the law, then it is about sin being unequal. Ultimately the Law demands death for EVERY sin.

But we're not talking about the same "death" here. I am talking about the Death that comes with the Condemnation of Judgement...I'm not talking about Mortal death...what requires mortal death and what doesnt, is unimportant when you think that all sin requires Eternal Death...that is why All Sin is Equal...it ultimately all equals Eternal Death.

Vizion
10-29-2009, 02:03 PM
Stop looking at Obama's actions through your eyes and try to look at them through the eyes of Christ. Uh, seeing him through holy descernment isn't looking at him through the eyes of Christ?

Don't deny the gifts we have man. If a man commits evil, he is not apparently evil? We have to judge people based on their actions. If someone came up to you and asked "Is Obama a Christian?" and you said "I don't know, maybe" do you believe that shows a proper witness? "That's not for me to judge" is no better. Elijah was pretty sure that the prophets of Baal weren't believers in the God of Israel. He made apologies in condeming them.

Obamas action indicate he isn't saved. A saved man would never do the things he has done. No way, no how. That is why I say to test the spirits. Model after the verse, even if it was referring to false prophets.

NateR
10-29-2009, 05:40 PM
thats greater as in "he has more sin" not "the sin he has is worse sin" :rolleyes:

Well, you might have a point IF the reference to sin in that passage was plural, but it's not. Jesus seems to be referring to a singular act in this statement. What makes you think otherwise?

NateR
10-29-2009, 06:01 PM
On the topic of spiritual discernment:

Acts 16: 16-18
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

What's interesting about this passage is that nothing this demon-possessed girl said was a lie. Paul and Silas were servants of GOD and they were telling people how to be saved. However, despite her message, Paul was still able to discern that she wasn't a follower of GOD. The simple fact that everyone in this town knew exactly who this woman was meant that her associating herself with Paul did nothing but compromise his preaching of the Gospel. This is an example of Satan deceiving people with the truth and a great example of spiritual discernment on Paul's part.

Chuck
10-29-2009, 08:47 PM
Uh, seeing him through holy discernment isn't looking at him through the eyes of Christ?
Is that what you call it??? :mellow: How do you think we look through the eyes of Christ? How do you think Christ sees us? I think he see's us in the same way a father looks upon his children. With love. Mercy. Compassion. I mean that's how he looked upon you when he forgave you of your sins isn't it???

Don't deny the gifts we have man. If a man commits evil, he is not apparently evil? We have to judge people based on their actions.
Which gifts? The gift of judgment and condemnation? :tongue0011: Did you stop sinning when you became saved? I'm not sure what your Bible says but mine says:
Romans 3:23 (New International Version)
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Can you really determine our salvation by our actions????

If someone came up to you and asked "Is Obama a Christian?" and you said "I don't know, maybe" do you believe that shows a proper witness? "That's not for me to judge" is no better.
I think it would be a much better answer then presenting a works/actions based theology which is what you're implying. It presents a wonderful opportunity to discuss mans fallen nature and our need for salvation. The Salvation that's available to all man not just the "good" ones.

Elijah was pretty sure that the prophets of Baal weren't believers in the God of Israel. He made apologies in condeming them.
Bro seriously? You stretched that so far I'm going to start calling you Plastic Man! Confessed and admitted prophets of a false God preaching a theology and belief completely contradictory to the Gospel of Jesus Christ compared to an admitted follower of Christ who sins? Who makes choices you don't agree with? HUH????

Obamas action indicate he isn't saved. A saved man would never do the things he has done. No way, no how.
What "things" would a saved man do??? Would a "saved" man deny Christ 3 times like Peter? Would a "saved" man commit adultery and murder like David? Should I go on??

That is why I say to test the spirits. Model after the verse, even if it was referring to false prophets.
So..... even if you're taking the Scripture completely out of context then Oh well??? You'll just do it any way? Am I misunderstanding you?

Chuck
10-29-2009, 08:48 PM
On the topic of spiritual discernment:

Acts 16: 16-18
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

What's interesting about this passage is that nothing this demon-possessed girl said was a lie. Paul and Silas were servants of GOD and they were telling people how to be saved. However, despite her message, Paul was still able to discern that she wasn't a follower of GOD. The simple fact that everyone in this town knew exactly who this woman was meant that her associating herself with Paul did nothing but compromise his preaching of the Gospel. This is an example of Satan deceiving people with the truth and a great example of spiritual discernment on Paul's part.

Excellent example of how even a sick Doctor can still practice medicine...

NateR
10-29-2009, 09:19 PM
Excellent example of how even a sick Doctor can still practice medicine...

So, are you actually claiming that a demon-possessed woman can be an effective minister of the Gospel? :blink: Seriously? :huh:

Chuck
10-29-2009, 09:26 PM
So, are you actually claiming that a demon-possessed woman can be an effective minister of the Gospel? :blink: Seriously? :huh:

Where the heck did you get all of that???

How about.... a broken clock is right twice a day? How's that? Is that better or am I now claiming the clock is a minister of the gospel??? :D

I was just saying that sometimes God's truth can come from unlikely sources. So no Nathan, I wasn't claiming that would make her an effective minister of the Gospel. But in that particular scenario she was an accurate minister of the Gospel. :wink:

NateR
10-29-2009, 09:29 PM
Where the heck did you get all of that???

How about.... a broken clock is right twice a day? How's that? Is that better or am I now claiming the clock is a minister of the gospel??? :D

I was just saying that sometimes God's truth can come from unlikely sources. So no Nathan, I wasn't claiming that would make her an effective minister of the Gospel. But in that particular scenario she was an accurate minister of the Gospel. :wink:

But you're missing the point. Her accuracy was meaningless and only served the purpose of compromising Paul's credibility. Why else do you think that he commanded the demon to come out of that woman?

Chris F
10-29-2009, 10:35 PM
All sin is equal in the eyes of God the only difference is the factor for punishment. The whole reaping and sowing thing. There is only one unforgivable sin; all can be forgiven when one truly repents which means to turn from and not do it again. So you all are right they are equal but they are not If the bible had a list of levels of sin then man would use it to justify their unrighteous behavior, sounds familar I am sure. God draws no lines because if he did we as humans would toe it. The fact is God has laws in which we are to obey and follow to help live a holy life. Some choose other paths, but only the straight and narrow lead to Christ. Hopefully this will not be edited in any way so you can see my point without censorship.

Tyburn
10-29-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, you might have a point IF the reference to sin in that passage was plural, but it's not. Jesus seems to be referring to a singular act in this statement. What makes you think otherwise?

Because Jesus seems to use the word Greater, to mean MORE OF rather then BIGGER. It could be a translational blip I suppose. I've always thought that the passage meant that the other guy was more responsible for what happened in terms of blame placing.

but its a mute point anyway, as all sin equates to eternal death. Even if Jesus meant More in terms of duplicity and seriousness of sin, the end result would be the same for all parties involved.

Being barred from Heaven and facing Eternal Separation from GOD because he is Holy, and they have fallen short of His Perfection.

The ideal that Sins carry different ratings, some worse then others, is thus also completely mute. Even if they did carry different ratings...the point is all the crimes are punishable by EXACTLY the same thing.

The Law requires Eternal Death for Sin. Jesus, is effectively still paying the price for sins not yet committed, and sins that already have been, because not only was He perfect...he is also Eternal. His Death was Eternal to Hell, his Ressurection was Eternal to Heaven, and it works both ways in chronology, working in both realms.

This is the Core of the Crucifixitional Message, and the Power of the Ressurection....sadly it allows Christians to now focus on the man-employed degrees of sin, where half the sin isnt classed as sin at all, and the rest of the sin is somehow more sinful then the latter...and it doesnt matter in the slightest...for a Christian will be purified by the indwelling of the Spirit upon Mortal Death...and the Heathen will discover what I've told you...that no matter how great or little, how innocent or serious...their sins will prevent them from Entering into the full presence of GOD upon their deaths.

Tyburn
10-29-2009, 11:03 PM
On the topic of spiritual discernment:

Acts 16: 16-18
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

What's interesting about this passage is that nothing this demon-possessed girl said was a lie. Paul and Silas were servants of GOD and they were telling people how to be saved. However, despite her message, Paul was still able to discern that she wasn't a follower of GOD. The simple fact that everyone in this town knew exactly who this woman was meant that her associating herself with Paul did nothing but compromise his preaching of the Gospel. This is an example of Satan deceiving people with the truth and a great example of spiritual discernment on Paul's part.

Agreed. Although it wasnt much of a discernment if she was KNOWN for Fortune Telling. Because the Old Testament clearly goes against the allowance of Mediumship...even in the case of Christians trying to contact dead Christians...didnt it happen with one of the Prophets, that someone tried to get in contact with him after his death? was it Samuel...I cant remember...but anyway...clearly it was known that Mediumship could be true, and clearly it was known that Mediumship wasnt allowed, and clearly it was known that the devils recongised Christ, and whenever they did, Christ told them to Shut up. So if the Medium was known...then I fail to see the intricate Discernment...and feel he shouldnt have waited many days before casting the demon out of her. :unsure-1:

Incidently...if you think about it though, this Woman was earning a trade through Mediumship for someone else, without the demon...she presumably lost her trade...what would have happened to a slave who suddenly stopped bringing in money for her masters :ninja:

donaldbreland
10-29-2009, 11:13 PM
Mike Huckabee 2012

Chris F
10-29-2009, 11:32 PM
In reference to the discussion between Dave and NateR I find it interesting that you both would make such an argument using this particular reference. The word greater here is being used as a comparative in the Greek so Jesus is really refering to the fact that Caiaphas committed the greater sin then Pilate. His sin being unbelief in his as savior which boils down to the unpardonable sin. If you do nto believe Jesus is Savior then there is no chance for you and Caiaphas committed this sin. It in this verse has no bearing on numerical sins. It is simply Jesus comparing Pilate with him who turned him over the Jewish leadership. That is all. The real textual evidence for sin was already listed above and the bottom line is there are no levels or else we'd argue wiht each other that our sin is not as bad the others which we do anyways.

Mark
10-29-2009, 11:34 PM
Could you give me some Bible verses for sin is equal?

All sin is equal in the eyes of God the only difference is the factor for punishment. The whole reaping and sowing thing. There is only one unforgivable sin; all can be forgiven when one truly repents which means to turn from and not do it again. So you all are right they are equal but they are not If the bible had a list of levels of sin then man would use it to justify their unrighteous behavior, sounds familar I am sure. God draws no lines because if he did we as humans would toe it. The fact is God has laws in which we are to obey and follow to help live a holy life. Some choose other paths, but only the straight and narrow lead to Christ. Hopefully this will not be edited in any way so you can see my point without censorship.

Could you give me the Bible verse.

donaldbreland
10-29-2009, 11:41 PM
Ok I am probably the newest on here to Christianity and I know I don't know it all about the Bible. I am a sinner and that I understand but I have been reading and reading and have sit here and thought about things that at times have been quite scary. I think this discussion has in a sort fallin off the topic a whole bunch. The truth is that Chuck is never going to get Nate to always see his point and Tyburn is never going to get me to always see his point and vise versa. The reason I think that is because God made us all different for a reason and the only way we can truly understand the Bible ourselves is to sit down and read it. At this point I have come to believe God is making us interpret the Bible differently because again we are all put on this earth for a certain task. My task may be totally different from Chucks or Nates but in the end we are all Christians on here.
I personally think that Jesus died for all our sins from everything that happened in the old testament and he died to forgive us for what we on earth were going to do. I don't think if I look at another woman and lust for her that it is equal to raping or murdering a kid. If you think that then you have serious problems and something your reading is being misinterpreted in your head and I think that's the devil.

The whole reason we are here is because Mark asked a simple questions about if Obama is a Christian. He may believe in God but he also may believe in ala or the God of teh seas or the God of the Lands or whatever but that does not make him a Christian. Our God is a jealous God and he is the only one and if you believe that and believe that Jesus died on the Cross to forgive us our sins and three days later was resirected then you are a Christian.
Obama is not a Christian and he said so him self. His own preacher said God D America. His church is full of marxist and his people he brought in the whitehouse are Marxist. I showed a video that he stated he was a Muslim. Now show me one that states he is a Christian.

Obama took words out of the bible and pretty much questioned them. He acted like he didn't believe in what the scripture said. I even showed a vidoe of that too. He is the last three verses in the Bible please tell me how Obama is a man of Christ.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

bradwright
10-29-2009, 11:43 PM
All sin is equal in the eyes of God the only difference is the factor for punishment. The whole reaping and sowing thing. There is only one unforgivable sin; all can be forgiven when one truly repents which means to turn from and not do it again. So you all are right they are equal but they are not If the bible had a list of levels of sin then man would use it to justify their unrighteous behavior, sounds familar I am sure. God draws no lines because if he did we as humans would toe it. The fact is God has laws in which we are to obey and follow to help live a holy life. Some choose other paths, but only the straight and narrow lead to Christ. Hopefully this will not be edited in any way so you can see my point without censorship.

two questions... i know some of you might laugh a bit at me for asking this but i would like to know what the unforgivable sin is ?

and are you trying to say that if God forgives you for your sins that you are saved unless you commit those same sins again ?

Chuck
10-29-2009, 11:46 PM
But you're missing the point. Her accuracy was meaningless and only served the purpose of compromising Paul's credibility. Why else do you think that he commanded the demon to come out of that woman?

I'll see what you're saying now... :wink:

I didn't see that the first time I read it.

Vizion
10-30-2009, 12:02 AM
Chuck, don't lose your weiner over this, man, I can't take the drama :laugh: Seriously I am too busy to reply to each and every point, so I'll just pick a few.

Confessed and admitted prophets of a false God preaching a theology and belief completely contradictory to the Gospel of Jesus Christ compared to an admitted follower of Christ who sins? Who makes choices you don't agree with? Obama is just a better politican than were the prophets of Baal. Instead of admitting he's anti-Christian, he just pretends he's one us...a serpent within the field.

What "things" would a saved man do??? Would a "saved" man deny Christ 3 times like Peter? Would a "saved" man commit adultery and murder like David? Should I go on?? You're comparing apples and oranges here Chuck. Peter and David both had a confessed and proven devotion to God. Obama has words, but actions that contradict his words. He is also a lying politician, unlike Peter or David, who supports evil in its most vile form.

If a seeker came up to you and asked if Obama was a Christian, and you said "maybe", but then that seeker was then mislead into thinking that Obama's Christianity was real, wouldn't that be a poor witness?

Tyburn
10-30-2009, 12:03 AM
In reference to the discussion between Dave and NateR I find it interesting that you both would make such an argument using this particular reference. The word greater here is being used as a comparative in the Greek so Jesus is really refering to the fact that Caiaphas committed the greater sin then Pilate. His sin being unbelief in his as savior which boils down to the unpardonable sin. If you do nto believe Jesus is Savior then there is no chance for you and Caiaphas committed this sin. It in this verse has no bearing on numerical sins. It is simply Jesus comparing Pilate with him who turned him over the Jewish leadership. That is all. The real textual evidence for sin was already listed above and the bottom line is there are no levels or else we'd argue wiht each other that our sin is not as bad the others which we do anyways.

The Unforgiveable Sin is Suicide, thats Blasphemy against the Spirit because you are distroying the Temple in which the Spirit has come to dwell, you are throwing GODs gift of life back in his face....and you have no time in which to repent before you die.

...Yes it looks like Christians can perform that action, that its not limited to the Heathen...who dont have the Holy Spirit indwelling, although they still are throwing away the gift of Life.

...at least...thats what I thought :unsure-1:

NateR
10-30-2009, 12:06 AM
The Unforgiveable Sin is Suicide, thats Blasphemy against the Spirit because you are distroying the Temple in which the Spirit has come to dwell, you are throwing GODs gift of life back in his face....and you have no time in which to repent before you die.

...Yes it looks like Christians can perform that action, that its not limited to the Heathen...who dont have the Holy Spirit indwelling, although they still are throwing away the gift of Life.

...at least...thats what I thought :unsure-1:

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that even suggests that suicide is the unforgivable sin.

Tyburn
10-30-2009, 12:06 AM
Could you give me the Bible verse.

are you ignoring me :angry:

Didnt I already give you the verse for that.

"the wages of sin is death" :huh: Romans 6.23 :laugh:

and im back in the game :tongue0011:

Tyburn
10-30-2009, 12:08 AM
There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that even suggests that suicide is the unforgivable sin.

what would you call giving GOD the ultimate finger :huh:

how could you hurt him the most...is that not the most blasphemous thing you can do :huh:

Is there something MORE blasphemous?

Chris F
10-30-2009, 12:11 AM
Could you give me the Bible verse.

Mark as I said there is no verse saying sins are equal or that htere are levels. God would not do that or else we'd make comparisons. As for the result of our sins the verse on sowing in reaping is what I was refering to. However as Dave said the punishment is the same either way and that is spiritual death. A liar will suffer the same fate as a murderer. So if you need a reference for that then 1 Corinthians 6 is your place

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

This is also scripture proof that just because drinking is not a sin that we should do it either but that was another thread.

Tyburn
10-30-2009, 12:12 AM
Mark as I said there is no verse saying sins are equal or that htere are levels. God would not do that or else we'd make comparisons. As for the result of our sins the verse on sowing in reaping is what I was refering to. However as Dave said the punishment is the same either way and that is spiritual death. A liar will suffer the same fate as a murderer. So if you need a reference for that then 1 Corinthians 6 is your place

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

This is also scripture proof that just because drinking is not a sin that we should do it either but that was another thread.

:angry::angry:

Ive just given Mark, the verse...again :rolleyes:

Chris F
10-30-2009, 12:19 AM
two questions... i know some of you might laugh a bit at me for asking this but i would like to know what the unforgivable sin is ?

and are you trying to say that if God forgives you for your sins that you are saved unless you commit those same sins again ?

Not at all brad. This is a very honest question. My understanding of scripture ( meaning as I Chris F interprets it from the Greek, so I will not die for this belief) repentance strictly means a turning away. So just saying I am sorry does not cut it. This is why 1 John 1:5-2:2 uses the terms it does.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

KJV 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So confession must bring action. If I hit you in the head with a hammer and say I am sorry then do it again do you think I was truly sorry in the first place? You'd probably hit me back with something bigger then a hammer.

So repentance is saying I am sorry and making an effort not to do it again because you know it grieves God. If we keep doing it then it means sin control us and that we are walking according to the flesh and not the spirit. Which the bible says is wrong.

Chris F
10-30-2009, 12:22 AM
The Unforgiveable Sin is Suicide, thats Blasphemy against the Spirit because you are distroying the Temple in which the Spirit has come to dwell, you are throwing GODs gift of life back in his face....and you have no time in which to repent before you die.

...Yes it looks like Christians can perform that action, that its not limited to the Heathen...who dont have the Holy Spirit indwelling, although they still are throwing away the gift of Life.

...at least...thats what I thought :unsure-1:

Suicide is the murder of self and since you cannot repent because you'd be dead it is very much an unpardonable sin. But I think it is more then just that. The Holy Spirit is the convicting agent in salvation. SO when it convicts and one refuses to accept the gift of eternal life they have blasphemed the holy spirit and there is no salvation for that person.

rearnakedchoke
10-30-2009, 12:27 AM
Suicide is the murder of self and since you cannot repent because you'd be dead it is very much an unpardonable sin. But I think it is more then just that. The Holy Spirit is the convicting agent in salvation. SO when it convicts and one refuses to accept the gift of eternal life they have blasphemed the holy spirit and there is no salvation for that person.

Just a question, because i don't know, but can we not repent after we are dead?

Chris F
10-30-2009, 12:42 AM
Just a question, because i don't know, but can we not repent after we are dead?

Not in most Christian faiths. I know some cults like the Mormons baptize for the dead but as far as I know one cannot do anything after death and by then it is too late. I think Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a great example. The rich man wanted to warn those living of the hell he was in and showed remorse but it was too late.

Tyburn
10-30-2009, 02:15 AM
Just a question, because i don't know, but can we not repent after we are dead?

No. When you die, you go right for Judgement, and its too late to be sorry then. Although, you can repent AS you are dying I suppose, there are deathbed conversions and the likes.

There are some fringe groups like the Unitarian Sect that believes in Universalism, which means that after Judgement, you are given the choice, and faced with the truth, noone would deny, and thus all are then forgiven...but that cant be true, or else, what would be the point in any of this life? I mean...if you can just say sorry AFTER Death...there is no point in living a life before it is there?

Tyburn
10-30-2009, 02:17 AM
Not in most Christian faiths. I know some cults like the Mormons baptize for the dead but as far as I know one cannot do anything after death and by then it is too late. I think Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a great example. The rich man wanted to warn those living of the hell he was in and showed remorse but it was too late.

:laugh: I love the way he said that even if the man could warn them...they wouldnt believe him :laugh:

Rev
10-30-2009, 03:29 PM
Oh Lord!:rolleyes:
I have been gone for a while and while I really want to put a dog in this hunt, I think I had better stay out.
But I will say, for everyone to read the word!!!!!!!!!!




Oh yeah, how many times did Jesus die?
Ok, just checking?

Mark
10-30-2009, 05:57 PM
are you ignoring me :angry:

Didnt I already give you the verse for that.

"the wages of sin is death" :huh: Romans 6.23 :laugh:

and im back in the game :tongue0011:

Where does this say that sin is equal?