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MattHughesRocks
10-03-2009, 02:41 AM
Oct. 1) -- Doctors who let a 26-year-old woman die after she swallowed antifreeze acted within the law, a coroner has ruled.
Kerrie Wooltorton, of Norwich in eastern England, is believed to be the first person to use a living will to commit suicide, The Guardian newspaper reported Thursday.
She wrote the document on Sept. 15, 2007, three days before she poisoned herself. She called an ambulance, which took her to Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital. There, she gave doctors a letter addressed to "To whom this may concern."


Kerrie Wooltorton, 26, died after drinking antifreeze. She had left written instructions that doctors should not try to save her.


"If I come into hospital regarding an overdose or any attempt of my life, I would like for NO life saving treatment to be given," she wrote in the letter, which Sky News printed on its Web site.
"I am aware that you may think that because I called the ambulance I therefore want treatment, THIS IS NOT THE CASE! I do however want to be comfortable as nobody wants to die alone and scared and without going into details there are loads of reasons I do not want to die at home which I realize you will not understand and I apologise for this," she wrote. Wooltorton had been depressed over her inability to have a child, an inquest into her death heard. Doctors said they feared they would be charged with assault if they treated her because she had made her wishes clear, The Telegraph reported.
"It is a double-bind for doctors. She was very clear in her wishes. To have forced treatment on her would have been unlawful," hospital spokesman Andrew Stronach said, according to the Norwich Evening News.
Her family has said doctors should have tried to save her, despite her written instructions. But the doctors said Wooltorton was considered mentally competent to decide on treatment -- or refuse it.
"Please be assured that I am 100% aware of the consequences of this and the probable outcome of drinking antifreeze, eg death in 95-99% of cases and if I survive then kidney failure, I understand and accept them and will take 100% responsibility for this," she wrote.
Greater Norfolk Coroner William Armstrong said Monday that the hospital could not be blamed for Wooltorton's death. "She had capacity to consent to treatment which, it is more likely than not, would have prevented her death," he said. "She refused such treatment in full knowledge of the consequences and died as a result."
Living wills are commonly associated with people who are terminally ill and wish to refuse treatment, or people who would not want to be kept alive if they were mentally incapacitated in some sort of accident. In England, living wills were introduced under the 2005 Mental Capacity Act.
The ProLife Alliance called for a change in the law.
"A lot of people who attempt to commit suicide are thankful they have been revived the next day," said the group's chairwoman, Dominica Roberts.

http://news.aol.com/article/coroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie/697884?icid=webmail|wbml-aol|dl2|link1|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle% 2Fcoroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie%2F697884

que
10-03-2009, 05:26 AM
what a coward. she wanted to kill herself but wanted doctors to ease her pain while she died? she should have just shot herself in the head if she wanted to die with ease. the doctors should have kicked her out of the hospital onto the street.

Buzzard
10-03-2009, 05:47 AM
what a coward. she wanted to kill herself but wanted doctors to ease her pain while she died? she should have just shot herself in the head if she wanted to die with ease. the doctors should have kicked her out of the hospital onto the street.

Wow, you are so full of compassion. I'm impressed. I think it takes a lot of courage to try to end your life.

Shooting yourself in the head isn't a sure fire way to do it either. If the gun kicks you may miss a lethal shot. I saw this on the TV show Intervention where a guy was strung out on Meth and wanted to end it all. He wound up shooting himself in the mouth and blinding himself in one eye. He has since recovered and building his life back up.

MattHughesRocks
10-03-2009, 05:54 AM
Anti Freez is cheaper I'd guess...sounds really painful and miserable though :unsure-1:

what a coward. she wanted to kill herself but wanted doctors to ease her pain while she died? she should have just shot herself in the head if she wanted to die with ease. the doctors should have kicked her out of the hospital onto the street.

MattHughesRocks
10-03-2009, 05:55 AM
I agree with you? :scared0015: It's her life, if she doesnt want it she doesnt want it.Sounds like she thought it through long enough...


Wow, you are so full of compassion. I'm impressed. I think it takes a lot of courage to try to end your life.

Shooting yourself in the head isn't a sure fire way to do it either. If the gun kicks you may miss a lethal shot. I saw this on the TV show Intervention where a guy was strung out on Meth and wanted to end it all. He wound up shooting himself in the mouth and blinding himself in one eye. He has since recovered and building his life back up.

Bonnie
10-03-2009, 06:49 AM
Why should he necessarily have to feel compassion for someone who deliberately took her life in such a manner as to make others a party to it by tying their hands to aid her? They should have gone ahead and treated her and if she survived forced her into psychiatric care. And before anyone takes exception to the word "force", that's what she did. She forced others to stand by and do nothing, oh but she wanted to be comfortable and not die alone. :blink:

Give me a break! She's going to call an ambulance... Maybe that ambulance she called could have been on another call to save someone who wanted to live!

As to it taking courage to kill herself, wow, I'm going to have to give that one some thought. Maybe next week, I'll ask some of the people I'll be sitting with while we're hooked up to our IV lines getting chemo. Hell, maybe we should be courageous like her and just sneak some anti-freeze in our lines. :wink:

Buzzard
10-03-2009, 07:49 AM
Why should he necessarily have to feel compassion for someone who deliberately took her life and in such a manner as to make others a party to it by tying their hands to aid her? They should have gone ahead and treated her and if she survived forced her into psychiatric care. And before anyone takes exception to the word "force", that's what she did. She forced others to stand by and do nothing, oh but she wanted to be comfortable and not die alone. :blink:

I really don't want to die alone either. A compassionate person would see to it that their final hours are peaceful ones. I think the compassionate person is someone to look up to.

Give me a break! She's going to call an ambulance... Maybe that ambulance she called could have been on another call to save someone who wanted to live!

As to it taking courage to kill herself, wow, I'm going to have to give that one some thought. Maybe next week, I'll ask some of the people I'll be sitting with while we're hooked up to our IV lines getting chemo. Hell, maybe we should be courageous like her and just sneak some anti-freeze in our lines. :wink:

If you decide to do that and wish for someone to be there to help ease your suffering, give me a ring, I'd be honored to be of service and would do my best to make your last moments as pain free and dignified as I possibly could. Heck, I'd even try to talk you out of it.


com⋅pas⋅sion
  /kəmˈpæʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhm-pash-uhn] Show IPA

–noun
1. a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

If someone feels so messed up in life where they are at a point where they feel nothing is left for them, I feel compassion and empathy. I have a friend who recently tried to end his life. I too felt compassion and empathy for him. Another co-worker of mine killed himself. He felt his life was so far messed up that he chose to end it rather than suffer anymore. I felt compassion for him too.

Maybe I just have a good heart and hope for the best in people and truly wish I could be of help to those suffering. You see, not all agnostics are evil treacherous people, not that I say you feel that way. I would expect compassion from religious folks, but in much of my dealings with them I find little to none. Maybe that's partially why I shun religion as I don't want to end up like many I see who have no compassion or empathy towards folks which need a shoulder to lean on. Luckily I still know religious folks who I do look up to in ways who generally do possess a great attitude and I strive to learn from the examples which they set.

TexasRN
10-03-2009, 01:23 PM
I may have a different view of death than some others but that does not make me a less compassionate person than another. I had a cousin who killed herself. Blew her face off with a gun. On purpose. Her family remains devastated by this to this day. That happened when we were 15 so it was many, many years ago but we all still miss Julie and talk about her at reunions. I do feel extreme sadness for her that her life was so bad in her eyes that she could no longer live it. I really do. BUT, her family has never recovered fully. Her brothers who were in the house and were EMTs couldn't save her. They had to quit being EMTs because of it. PTSD on something like that's a b**ch. I see the impact it has on the ones left behind who tried everything to help her. Yes, she was horribly depressed and it was an illness she could not shake. She was very sick from it (mentally) so I am not angry at her personally. The situation itself makes me angry.

In this particular case I feel bad for the healthcare workers who had to stand by and go against everything in their nature so this woman could die. It sucks to know that you could save someone but aren't being allowed to. Every death makes you reflect on what you could have done differently that would have made a difference. You question your actions and try to think of what would have brought them back. Standing by to let someone die is just not who we are. It causes trauma to us to do it. If you want to die, fine. But causing harm to others when you do it is not fair.

To address the right to die issue and a person's right to choose to withhold treatment at the end of life is different to me. That has to do with terminal illness. I will sit there and hold your hand and cry with your family if need be. I've done that more than a few times. I've watched couples deliver a baby that had issues that were incompatible with life so they chose to hold and comfor their baby while he/she passed. Those moments are so precious and so hard.

Hopefully this makes sense. Probably it is just a rambling bunch of nonsense to ya'll but things like this strike a chord in me.


~Amy

adamt
10-03-2009, 01:45 PM
I think it takes a lot of courage to try to end your life.




WOW!!!!

Self murder is THE most selfish and cowardly thing a person could do!!! It is the epitomy of cowardness and lack of courage.

Courage would be facing your problems and living on for others and not yourself. I think Amy's post would be a pretty good point of view on that.


I think she should be tried for murder. Her own murder.

TexasRN
10-03-2009, 01:55 PM
WOW!!!!

Self murder is THE most selfish and cowardly thing a person could do!!! It is the epitomy of cowardness and lack of courage.

Courage would be facing your problems and living on for others and not yourself. I think Amy's post would be a pretty good point of view on that.


I think she should be tried for murder. Her own murder.


Yes. I stopped short of saying that I feel suicide is cowardly and selfish. But I do feel that way. I assume the young woman in the story was married since it says she was depressed over her inability to have a baby. Really? This is a wound that her husband will carry forever. And I am not sure someone who is that mentally unstable should be having children. Ooooh, wow I'm a horrible person for thinking that, huh?

~Amy

MattHughesRocks
10-03-2009, 02:11 PM
So, one day if your ever mentally ill enough to kill yourself let us know if you still feel the same way.Oh wait....never been that low before? Then how would you know?

WOW!!!!

Self murder is THE most selfish and cowardly thing a person could do!!! It is the epitomy of cowardness and lack of courage.

Courage would be facing your problems and living on for others and not yourself. I think Amy's post would be a pretty good point of view on that.


I think she should be tried for murder. Her own murder.

Bonnie
10-03-2009, 03:23 PM
Like Michelle said, she obviously thought this out down to the last detail. Maybe that's what struck me wrong, in this case. Some people, a lot of people, are like Amy's cousin who suffer from a debilitating type of depression that they cannot overcome and they end up taking their life.

This woman in the story may have been depressed at not being able to have a child, but she seemed to have her mental facalities enough to know she didn't want to die at home, she didn't want to die alone, to call an ambulance, have her living will in hand and to ask for something for pain so she could be comfortable while she carried out her deathwish.

Like Amy, in this case, my compassion is for those medical personnel whose hands were legally tied and for any family/friends she left behind to deal with her choices.

que
10-03-2009, 03:24 PM
Wow, you are so full of compassion. I'm impressed. I think it takes a lot of courage to try to end your life.



committing suicide is the cowards way out. it takes alot of courage to LIVE life.

Primadawn
10-03-2009, 03:36 PM
Here's my issue. In my opinion, if your depression is severe enough that you want to kill yourself, then you have an extremely debilitating mental illness.

If you have severe mental illness, a living will that you wrote while in that state would not be valid, would it?

Bonnie
10-03-2009, 03:44 PM
That's a good ?. Just going by what we were told in this story regarding this particular woman, I don't think that type of depression was the case here especially given how much thought and planning she gave to everything.

adamt
10-03-2009, 03:45 PM
So, one day if your ever mentally ill enough to kill yourself let us know if you still feel the same way.Oh wait....never been that low before? Then how would you know?

wow i have always respected your arguments and attitude before. I would really urge you to rethink your post. though i am sure you have experience(s) that have given you strong convictions as well.




ASSUME=makes an ASS out of U and ME

you assume i have never contemplated suicide. you have no idea how close or not i have come to killing myself or what circumstances were in that case. I think suicide is a temptation satan uses to knock off some good christians or potentially good christians anyways, i don't consider it "mentally ill" or "depressed" -thats a copout.

maybe you are the one that needs to reflect on your own post. Though i won't assume you haven't been tried with the temptation as well. We both know dead people are the only ones that have actually committed suicide so who can say for sure.


so yeah i'll let you know......



I still feel the same way


I hope this doesn't come across as prideful and condescending as it is just the opposite. It should sound humiliated and ashamed.

though to be fair we can't control all of our circumstances or emotions.... we CAN control our reactions to them and actions in general..... thus my view........

Self murder is COWARDLY, SELFISH, AND IMMORAL

TexasRN
10-03-2009, 03:50 PM
That's a good ?. Just going by what we were told in this story regarding this particular woman, I don't think that type of depression was the case here especially given how much thought and planning she gave to everything.


It is a huge ethical problem for medical personnel. You cannot make binding legal decisions in an altered mental state but the medical personnel could be sued for assault and battery by her later if they went against her wishes and saved her. And the scary thing is that she'd win.


~Amy

logrus
10-03-2009, 06:35 PM
If she wanted to take her own life then that's fine by me since I am a believer in the Harikiri ritual or Seppuku, but don't waste the time of a paramedic or a doctor who could be trying to save the life of someone who wants to live.

Anyways copying and pasting a definition of a word just makes you look stupid, it's just as bad as copying and pasting something from Wiki.

Buzzard
10-03-2009, 09:20 PM
If she wanted to take her own life then that's fine by me since I am a believer in the Harikiri ritual or Seppuku, but don't waste the time of a paramedic or a doctor who could be trying to save the life of someone who wants to live.

Anyways copying and pasting a definition of a word just makes you look stupid, it's just as bad as copying and pasting something from Wiki.

C'mon, I put the definition there so you wouldn't have to look it up. We all know you have trouble with the big words.:wink:

That's a joke, get it?

logrus
10-03-2009, 10:27 PM
C'mon, I put the definition there so you wouldn't have to look it up. We all know you have trouble with the big words.:wink:

That's a joke, get it?

Hang on I have to go google "joke" :tongue0011:

flo
10-03-2009, 11:03 PM
I may have a different view of death than some others but that does not make me a less compassionate person than another. I had a cousin who killed herself. Blew her face off with a gun. On purpose. Her family remains devastated by this to this day. That happened when we were 15 so it was many, many years ago but we all still miss Julie and talk about her at reunions. I do feel extreme sadness for her that her life was so bad in her eyes that she could no longer live it. I really do. BUT, her family has never recovered fully. Her brothers who were in the house and were EMTs couldn't save her. They had to quit being EMTs because of it. PTSD on something like that's a b**ch. I see the impact it has on the ones left behind who tried everything to help her. Yes, she was horribly depressed and it was an illness she could not shake. She was very sick from it (mentally) so I am not angry at her personally. The situation itself makes me angry.

In this particular case I feel bad for the healthcare workers who had to stand by and go against everything in their nature so this woman could die. It sucks to know that you could save someone but aren't being allowed to. Every death makes you reflect on what you could have done differently that would have made a difference. You question your actions and try to think of what would have brought them back. Standing by to let someone die is just not who we are. It causes trauma to us to do it. If you want to die, fine. But causing harm to others when you do it is not fair.

To address the right to die issue and a person's right to choose to withhold treatment at the end of life is different to me. That has to do with terminal illness. I will sit there and hold your hand and cry with your family if need be. I've done that more than a few times. I've watched couples deliver a baby that had issues that were incompatible with life so they chose to hold and comfor their baby while he/she passed. Those moments are so precious and so hard.

Hopefully this makes sense. Probably it is just a rambling bunch of nonsense to ya'll but things like this strike a chord in me.


~Amy

Thank you for sharing that, I'm so sorry for your family.
I personally feel that suicide is the ultimate cowardly and self-absorbed act. We all go through pain at some time, emotional and or physical. The true act of bravery is in hanging in there and working through it, thinking of your loved ones and not just yourself, getting help, reaching out.

Buzzard
10-04-2009, 03:12 AM
Thank you for sharing that, I'm so sorry for your family.
I personally feel that suicide is the ultimate cowardly and self-absorbed act. We all go through pain at some time, emotional and or physical. The true act of bravery is in hanging in there and working through it, thinking of your loved ones and not just yourself, getting help, reaching out.

I go to sleep each night thinking I will wake up the next day. Nothing brave about that. I go on day to day with my life taking each day as it comes, sometimes facing a challenge or two and luckily none of them being life threatening. One thing is that I know I am not brave enough to put a loaded gun in my mouth and pull the trigger, nor am I brave enough to hang myself, OD on drugs, step in front of a moving train or any of the other ways in which I could kill myself.

To say that someone is a coward to take their own life I think is completely false. Sure it affects the ones left behind, as I have direct experience with that, but that again is one of the challenges that I have had to face and am lucky enough to have pulled through. Living life is easy, taking your own life requires balls of steel in my opinion. Do I look up to people who attempt to take their own life? No. Do I regret the choices which led those to attempt to take their own life? You bet I do. I also feel compassion for those who think that things are so bad for them that they feel ending their life is the only option left.

WOW!!!!

Self murder is THE most selfish and cowardly thing a person could do!!! It is the epitomy of cowardness and lack of courage.

I agree it is selfish. I don't think it is cowardly. Are you brave enough to put a loaded gun in your mouth and pull the trigger knowing that you will die? I seriously hope not and I do doubt that you would be brave enough to do it. Don't be stupid you probably think. We're talking bravery and cowardice here. I sincerely hope that you would take the cowards way out and not pull the trigger.

Courage would be facing your problems and living on for others and not yourself. I think Amy's post would be a pretty good point of view on that.

Facing each day is easy. All one has to do in continue to live. Facing death and following through knowing that your life is about to end isn't cowardly at all.

I think she should be tried for murder. Her own murder.

If you are for the death penalty, why shouldn't she be allowed to take her own life? Stupid question you ask? Just wondering why she shouldn't be able to when you favor a policy where an innocent could be put to death.

committing suicide is the cowards way out. it takes alot of courage to LIVE life.

As I have said before, getting up each morning and living through each day doesn't take courage. It may take courage to face certain situations which you would face in a day to day basis. Yes it is selfish and causes others to run through a gamut of emotions which they wouldn't have to deal with if the person chose life, but the decision to end your own life takes a big amount of courage. If it didn't, we would probably see many many more instances of suicide than we now do.

wow i have always respected your arguments and attitude before. I would really urge you to rethink your post. though i am sure you have experience(s) that have given you strong convictions as well.




ASSUME=makes an ASS out of U and ME

Is that really what assume means?:wink:

you assume i have never contemplated suicide. you have no idea how close or not i have come to killing myself or what circumstances were in that case. I think suicide is a temptation satan uses to knock off some good christians or potentially good christians anyways, i don't consider it "mentally ill" or "depressed" -thats a copout.

I take it that you don't know much about mental illness. Have you ever dealt with people that suffer from mental illness or extreme depression? What's a cop-out is labeling something a cop-out when one hasn't experienced or been involved in certain types of mental illness or extreme cases of depression. Until you've walked in their shoes, you can't possibly know what it is like. If you have contemplated suicide before but didn't go through with it, I'm am glad that you took the cowards way out. I say that with complete happiness because you are still alive today. I don't mean that as a put down or an insult. I wish my one friend who committed suicide would have taken the cowards way out. If he did, he would still be alive today.

maybe you are the one that needs to reflect on your own post. Though i won't assume you haven't been tried with the temptation as well. We both know dead people are the only ones that have actually committed suicide so who can say for sure.

Of course dead people are the ones who have committed suicide. The ones that didn't complete it only attempted to commit suicide.

Self murder is COWARDLY, SELFISH, AND IMMORAL

Why shouldn't one be able to take their own life? Are you for allowing to take the life of someone who wants to live but against someone taking their own life if they don't? If you're able to, please explain it without bringing God into it as I don't believe in that and that kind of reasoning will do nothing to persuade me. If you can offer other valid reasons, I will be more open and apt to seriously consider what you have to say on the matter.

To the religious folks. If one were to attempt suicide and ask for forgiveness after the attempt and is "saved" but still dies, what does your religion say about that?

flo
10-04-2009, 04:24 AM
To say that someone is a coward to take their own life I think is completely false.
Well, we just have to agree to disagree then. I didn't say I don't have compassion for people in so much pain they decide to end it all, indeed I do. But just consider for a moment that someone in that much pain would be far braver to face it and try to work through another day, another hour, eh?

Chuck
10-04-2009, 04:25 AM
I go to sleep each night thinking I will wake up the next day. Nothing brave about that.

One thing is that I know I am not brave enough to put a loaded gun in my mouth and pull the trigger, nor am I brave enough to hang myself, OD on drugs, step in front of a moving train or any of the other ways in which I could kill myself.

To say that someone is a coward to take their own life I think is completely false.

As I have said before, getting up each morning and living through each day doesn't take courage.

...but the decision to end your own life takes a big amount of courage.

I can't help but think you're joking. You can't possibly believe this can you??? :scared0015: This reads more like an antagonist who just wants to try and defend a completely illogical point of view for the joy of being disruptive. Or maybe you are more of an "authority" on mental illness then I'm aware :wink:

And since you like definitions.... you should look up a few words...

Main Entry: cour·age
Pronunciation: \ˈkər-ij, ˈkə-rij\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English corage, from Anglo-French curage, from quer, coer heart, from Latin cor — more at heart
Date: 14th century

: mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty

que
10-04-2009, 04:34 AM
As I have said before, getting up each morning and living through each day doesn't take courage.

i mean no offense, but that is the dumbest thing i have read in a long time.

we are talking about people who commit suicide here, and you are saying that getting up each morning and living through each day doesn't take courage for them? your damn right it takes courage for them. that's exactly why they DO commit suicide... because they lack the courage to get up every morning and live each day. life is short enough and we will all die soon enough as it is. have the courage to face life instead of run away from it. yes, i have compassion for people who suffer from depression and whatnot, all we are saying is that the act of killing yourself because you can't handle sh*t is cowardly. as i said, suicide is the easy way out. having the balls to stick around and tough it out is what takes courage.

Neezar
10-04-2009, 05:04 AM
Makes you wish that some people were braver.....or more cowardly. Whichever.....:unsure-1:

Buzzard
10-04-2009, 05:50 AM
Well, we just have to agree to disagree then. I didn't say I don't have compassion for people in so much pain they decide to end it all, indeed I do. But just consider for a moment that someone in that much pain would be far braver to face it and try to work through another day, another hour, eh?

I am cool with agreeing to disagree. Heck, if everyone on here agreed with me it would be no fun and I probably wouldn't post as much. It doesn't require much thinking for me to agree with everything. I like the challenge of exploring into the deep recesses of my mind that sometimes don't get poked much.

As I have said before, getting up each morning and living through each day doesn't take courage.

i mean no offense, but that is the dumbest thing i have read in a long time.

Maybe I should have said it doesn't take courage for me.

It takes me absolutely ZERO courage for me to go to sleep each night and wake up and go about my day the next day.


we are talking about people who commit suicide here, and you are saying that getting up each morning and living through each day doesn't take courage for them?

Yet you call them cowards when they are willing to do the ultimate thing taking their life away forever If that doesn't take balls, I don't know what would. Are you brave enough to take your own life? You may say you're not stupid enough, which would have merit, but I also doubt that you would be brave enough to stick a loaded gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. That would take balls of steel again. Having no desire to face another day does not mean that someone is a coward. I just dislike using that derogatory term on someone who is in such a state of emotional turmoil and pain, along with perhaps mental illness. While I don't condone it, taking your own life again takes balls of steel.

your damn right it takes courage for them. that's exactly why they DO commit suicide... because they lack the courage to get up every morning and live each day.

And you know this because????

Have you ever thought that maybe they just don't want to live anymore, that they're done with it.

life is short enough and we will all die soon enough as it is. have the courage to face life instead of run away from it.

What if one is bored with life and gets no pleasure from it anymore? What if the pain is so great and nothing can offer relief, do you think the person should just suffer needlessly and not be allowed to die with dignity? Have you ever held the hand of someone who is dying and in such intense pain and asks you to pull the plug so they can finally rest in peace? Have you ever felt so helpless because you couldn't do that for them?


yes, i have compassion for people who suffer from depression and whatnot, all we are saying is that the act of killing yourself because you can't handle sh*t is cowardly.Maybe you should learn how to empathize. Sure doesn't sound like you have compassion when you say someone is a coward and can't handle sh*t.

as i said, suicide is the easy way out. having the balls to stick around and tough it out is what takes courage.

If it is such an easy way out, why aren't the suicide numbers reaching astronomical proportions? Were the jumpers on 9/11 cowards when they jumped to their deaths rather than burn inside a blazing inferno? My respects to all those who lost lives or loved ones in that attack. I mean no disrespect in my question, and apologize in advance if some take it the wrong way.

My favorite quote about suicide is this. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Unfortunately some folks aren't in the right mental frame of mind to understand this. If you wish to be cool and call folks in suicidal situations cowardly and unable to handle sh*t, feel free if that's what makes you feel good. It sure doesn't reflect you in a positive light IMO.


I can't help but think you're joking. You can't possibly believe this can you??? :scared0015: This reads more like an antagonist who just wants to try and defend a completely illogical point of view for the joy of being disruptive.

I do actually. The reasons being that getting up each day isn't much of a challenge because I enjoy life and the things I do with it. All I need to do to see the next day is to wake up and occupy the time until I repeat the cycle. Sure there are things in each day that may challenge me and need me to show courage in order to face the problem at hand, but it's not much of a challenge and takes no courage on my part to go to sleep and wake up the next morning. I look forward to it.

What would truly scare me is to take my own life. I don't have the courage or bravery needed for me to challenge death by attempting to commit suicide. Knowing that my life would end when I enjoy it so much shows that I am a coward or not stupid when it comes to taking my own life. I am quite comfortable in that fact.

Or maybe you are more of an "authority" on mental illness then I'm aware :wink:

People say I'm crazy doing what I'm doing.
Well they give me all kinds of warnings to save me from ruin.
When I say that I'm o.k. well they look at me kind of strange.
Surely you're not happy now you no longer play the game.

Thank you John Lennon for the above lyrics.

And since you like definitions.... you should look up a few words...

I enjoyed your definitions. Perhaps courage wasn't the word I should have used.

Thanks for the interesting debate here. I hope no offense is taken as none is meant. I just don't like derogatory labels placed upon folks who are so deep in a rut that the labels are like pieces of poop being thrown down at them during their struggle to get back up. A friend of mine was fortunate enough to have survived his suicide attempt. He by no means is a coward in any way, (except maybe for spiders on him that he doesn't know about).:frantics: It hits home a bit for me when I hear folks speaking of him in these derogatory ways and I apologize for my defensive attitude.

Bonnie
10-04-2009, 05:51 AM
I can't help but think you're joking. You can't possibly believe this can you??? :scared0015: This reads more like an antagonist who just wants to try and defend a completely illogical point of view for the joy of being disruptive. Or maybe you are more of an "authority" on mental illness then I'm aware :wink:

:Whistle:

rockdawg21
10-04-2009, 01:42 PM
Suicide is a very selfish act.

TexasRN
10-04-2009, 02:08 PM
I think that saying those of us who believe suicide is cowardly and selfish are less compassionate is a bunch of bullhockey. We are just as compassionate as anyone else here. We just feel compassion for those left behind hurting because their loved one offed him/herself. None of us deny that the person who commits suicide is in a horribly bad place with a mental illness of depression. We are not saying he/she does not deserve sympathy for their plight. However, we are saying that just giving up and ending it all is not the way to go. That's exactly what it is, giving up. Throwing in the towel and just quitting is not brave or courageous.

And those jumpers on 9/11 did not commit suicide in my eyes. They were being murdered and chose to die their own way instead of burning to death. Having the plug pulled when you are dying or in a vegetative state is not suicide. It is dying with dignity. Taking pills, hanging yourself, shooting yourself, slitting your writsts....those are suicide. Just my opinion on that matter.

The only time I think suicide is brave is if your child is dying and needs a transplant to live, something that you have to harvest from a dead body. You know you're a match but cannot live without said organ. So you kill yourself after signing your donor card so that your child may have your organ. That takes courage.


~Amy

adamt
10-04-2009, 02:12 PM
who benefits the most from a suicide?


who benefits the least from a suicide?


therefore is it selfish?

adamt
10-04-2009, 02:16 PM
. One thing is that I know I am not brave enough to put a loaded gun in my mouth and pull the trigger, nor am I brave enough to hang myself, OD on drugs, step in front of a moving train or any of the other ways in which I could kill myself.








So killing is courageous


according to this logic curt cobain, chris farley, charles manson and jefferey dahmer were some of the nations most courageuos patriots

adamt
10-04-2009, 02:21 PM
I

And those jumpers on 9/11 did not commit suicide in my eyes. They were being murdered and chose to die their own way instead of burning to death. Having the plug pulled when you are dying or in a vegetative state is not suicide. It is dying with dignity. Taking pills, hanging yourself, shooting yourself, slitting your writsts....those are suicide. Just my opinion on that matter.




~Amy

well i think those jumpers knew they had better odds of living if the jumped. they were taking their best option, even if the odds were a million to one. staying in the burning building was a billion to one they would live.

TexasRN
10-04-2009, 02:29 PM
well i think those jumpers knew they had better odds of living if the jumped. they were taking their best option, even if the odds were a million to one. staying in the burning building was a billion to one they would live.

Either way, still not "suicide" in my eyes. Even if it was blind panic and they jumped without thinking it through it was not "suicide" to me.


~Amy

flo
10-04-2009, 07:01 PM
And those jumpers on 9/11 did not commit suicide in my eyes. They were being murdered and chose to die their own way instead of burning to death. Having the plug pulled when you are dying or in a vegetative state is not suicide. It is dying with dignity. Taking pills, hanging yourself, shooting yourself, slitting your writsts....those are suicide. Just my opinion on that matter.

I hadn't thought of the 9/11 jumpers...I totally agree with you. I think those images will be with me forever.

J.B.
10-04-2009, 07:13 PM
So killing is courageous


according to this logic curt cobain, chris farley, charles manson and jefferey dahmer were some of the nations most courageuos patriots


Just to be clear, Kurt Cobain is the only one of these people to commit suicide, and Charles Manson never technically killed anybody. Just sayin.

J.B.
10-04-2009, 07:15 PM
well i think those jumpers knew they had better odds of living if the jumped. they were taking their best option, even if the odds were a million to one. staying in the burning building was a billion to one they would live.

I don't think their odds were better by any means, but either way they were most likely going to die.

Bonnie
10-04-2009, 07:17 PM
Either way, still not "suicide" in my eyes. Even if it was blind panic and they jumped without thinking it through it was not "suicide" to me.


~Amy

You're right, Amy, that was not suicide, it was murder. If they hadn't jumped, they would have been burned to death or gone down with the buildings. The only choice they had was the way they were going to die. That was courage. The people who fought back on that plane most probably knew they were going to die. That was courage.

God Bless them! :cry:

Bonnie
10-04-2009, 07:24 PM
I don't think their odds were better by any means, but either way they were most likely going to die.

I agree. We have to remember these people were trapped, they couldn't go down, going up wasn't going to help them and ultimately the buildings came down.

J.B.
10-04-2009, 07:28 PM
I agree. We have to remember these people were trapped, they couldn't go down, going up wasn't going to help them and ultimately the buildings came down.

Right, but I'm just saying that there was NO way they were going to survive jumping short of divine intervention. None of us were there, but I am thinking that there was likely to be SOME way that a person could have escaped or survived. It don't matter now, what's done is done, but I don't fault the people who jumped in any way.

Buzzard's belief that it takes courage to commit suicide is nonsense. Let's turn that back around, away from the jumpers and ask him this question...Was it courageous of the hijackers of 9/11 to kill themselves the way they did? If your answer is yes, then you are a terrorist and should be water-boarded.

Bonnie
10-04-2009, 07:37 PM
Just to be clear, Kurt Cobain is the only one of these people to commit suicide, and Charles Manson never technically killed anybody. Just sayin.

Charles Manson may not have actually "technically" killed those people, but their blood is still on his hands and he is a murderer. I think the same way about those who hire others to kill for them. They may not pull the trigger, wield the knife, etc... but they are still murderers. You see prosecuters frequently making deals with the gun for hire to get to the "mastermind".

Bonnie
10-04-2009, 07:50 PM
Right, but I'm just saying that there was NO way they were going to survive jumping short of divine intervention. None of us were there, but I am thinking that there was likely to be SOME way that a person could have escaped or survived. It don't matter now, what's done is done, but I don't fault the people who jumped in any way.

Buzzard's belief that it takes courage to commit suicide is nonsense. Let's turn that back around, away from the jumpers and ask him this question...Was it courageous of the hijackers of 9/11 to kill themselves the way they did? If your answer is yes, then you are a terrorist and should be water-boarded.

Totally agree with everything you've said except, I don't necessarily think those trapped above the floors where the planes hit could have found a way out and survived. Remember, all those firemen were going up to try to get to them when the buildings collapsed.

As for those murdering bastards, they were cowards! I've always thought that. Same for those who strap a bomb on themselves or at least used to, now they're using women and children. They are nothing but cowards.

J.B.
10-04-2009, 08:12 PM
Charles Manson may not have actually "technically" killed those people, but their blood is still on his hands and he is a murderer. He's no different than those people who hire to kill someone. They may not pull the trigger, wield the knife, etc... but they are still murderers. You see prosecuters frequently making deals with the gun for hire to get to the "mastermind".

I think Manson is no doubt a deranged individual who has a warped world view, and he was directly involved which makes him guilty in my opinion. Believe me, I was not trying to suggest that Charles Manson is an innocent man, but rather that he was not the man who did any direct killing in the murders. I think the Manson scenario is different than a typical murder for hire, and it is an intricate case with a lot of facts to sift through when formulating an opinion on exactly what happened and why it happened.

My personal opinion is that all of those dirty hippies were crazy and whacked out of their brains on multiple drugs, making it hard for me to even label Manson as any sort of "mastermind" in the first place. In fact, the guy who actually had had a hand in killing each of the 8 victims was Charles Tex Watson and we know now that he was high on Meth, something Manson was adamantly opposed to. I believe they all acted together knowingly and the media has in some ways scapegoated Manson into being their "leader" because he is clearly a bit deranged while not putting the same amount of blame and attention on the others. Just my thoughts on the subject.

J.B.
10-04-2009, 08:19 PM
Totally agree with everything you've said except, I don't necessarily think those trapped above the floors where the planes hit could have found a way out and survived. Remember, all those firemen were going up to try to get to them when the buildings collapsed.

As for those murdering bastards, they were cowards! I've always thought that. Same for those who strap a bomb on themselves or at least used to, now they're using women and children. They are nothing but cowards.

I understand what you are saying, and I know it seems like a long shot, but I am just thinking that it's more likely to have found a way down, or to even survive the building collapsing, then to jump straight down.

I remember watching a documentary that had footage from inside the main entrance while people were being evacuated and fireman were coming in and you would hear these loud bangs that sound little explosions with enough force to actually shake the surrounding earth. It was the sound of those bodies hitting the ground. That's a tough way to go IMO.

Although, it's really not worth speculating on, either way it was a no win situation. All those people were murdered and the savages who did it are rotting in hell.

Bonnie
10-04-2009, 08:49 PM
I think Manson is no doubt a deranged individual who has a warped world view, and he was directly involved which makes him guilty in my opinion. Believe me, I was not trying to suggest that Charles Manson is an innocent man, but rather that he was not the man who did any direct killing in the murders. I think the Manson scenario is different than a typical murder for hire, and it is an intricate case with a lot of facts to sift through when formulating an opinion on exactly what happened and why it happened.

My personal opinion is that all of those dirty hippies were crazy and whacked out of their brains on multiple drugs, making it hard for me to even label Manson as any sort of "mastermind" in the first place. In fact, the guy who actually had had a hand in killing each of the 8 victims was Charles Tex Watson and we know now that he was high on Meth, something Manson was adamantly opposed to. I believe they all acted together knowingly and the media has in some ways scapegoated Manson into being their "leader" because he is clearly a bit deranged while not putting the same amount of blame and attention on the others. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Oh, I think they are all equally culpable. Charles Manson was more of a svengali to these people. Kind of like Jim Jones except Jones, I think, was even more crazy than Manson. The Manson thing was like a "perfect storm" where you had Manson looking to do something "big", you had people like Tex Watson on drugs, and these women looking for "something" and thought they had found it in Manson.

The "mastermind" wasn't really for Manson but those these days who plot to murder their ex's or others but want someone else to do their dirty work. :wink:

J.B.
10-04-2009, 09:07 PM
Oh, I think they are all equally culpable. Charles Manson was more of a svengali to these people. Kind of like Jim Jones except Jones, I think, was even more crazy than Manson. The Manson thing was like a "perfect storm" where you had Manson looking to do something "big", you had people like Tex Watson on drugs, and these women looking for "something" and thought they had found it in Manson.

The "mastermind" wasn't really for Manson but those these days who plot to murder their ex's or others but want someone else to do their dirty work. :wink:

To go back to something you said earlier about prosecutors giving deals to the trigger-men if they help them prosecute the mastermind...

I'm not sure how much I like the idea of them doing that. I mean maybe if they are just giving them something minor in return, like an extra blanket in prison, or a an extra roll of toilet paper, but when they start giving out reduced sentences or even immunity to people who commit serious crimes I am not a fan of that. I think that it undermines the system, but I can also understand there may be some situations where it is acceptable. Speaking of all types of crime, that is, not just murder.

Bonnie
10-04-2009, 09:38 PM
To go back to something you said earlier about prosecutors giving deals to the trigger-men if they help them prosecute the mastermind...

I'm not sure how much I like the idea of them doing that. I mean maybe if they are just giving them something minor in return, like an extra blanket in prison, or a an extra roll of toilet paper, but when they start giving out reduced sentences or even immunity to people who commit serious crimes I am not a fan of that. I think that it undermines the system, but I can also understand there may be some situations where it is acceptable. Speaking of all types of crime, that is, not just murder.

I know, makes you sick! :angry: But, they do it, like you said some even get off just on probation.

Just saw a case on the ID (Investigation Discovery) channel where this man hired people to kill his ex so he could get custody of the children. She wasn't killed but she was paralyzed from the neck down so basically her life was shattered anyway. They found the shooter and others who were involved in setting up the hit for this guy, but they wanted him, the mastermind, behind it all. So they made a deal with the shooter and he basically got off with just probation; they finally got her ex.

A case here in Texas and Florida you might remember. The Texas millionaire who wanted his ex-wife murdered, for pure vengence. Well, he got his golfing buddy to find someone, etc... She was the mother who was killed in front of her babies in Florida (it was all over the news when it happened). Well they managed to trace the shooter who had run to Mexico and then eventually got the golfing buddy in San Antonio but they knew the ex-husband was the mastermind. It took a few years, I think, but they eventually got him tracing calls he had made to a bounty hunter down in Florida. Also, sadly, he used his own children in finding out where they lived. The daughter of course did not realize what a monster he was and that he was plotting to kill their mother. :sad: The good thing in this case even though deals were made everybody ended up in prison.

flo
10-04-2009, 10:37 PM
Bonnie, do you mean the Alan Blackthorne case? I remember that really well because the guy was so cold and smooth and he almost got away with it. He is one evil guy.

Buzzard
10-04-2009, 10:47 PM
Suicide is a very selfish act.

Yes it is. I never said it wasn't.

I think that saying those of us who believe suicide is cowardly and selfish are less compassionate is a bunch of bullhockey.

I never said those saying it was selfish were not compassionate. It is a selfish act.

We are just as compassionate as anyone else here. We just feel compassion for those left behind hurting because their loved one offed him/herself. None of us deny that the person who commits suicide is in a horribly bad place with a mental illness of depression. We are not saying he/she does not deserve sympathy for their plight. However, we are saying that just giving up and ending it all is not the way to go.

If you were in such debilitating pain with no chance of relief, required assistance with every aspect of your life, from feeding to cleaning up after using the bedpan with no hope of recovery, why would you say someone is cowardly because they wish for their pain and misery to end? Why should they stick around for your selfish reasons? Does it make you feel better seeing someone broken down to the lowest level possible while you sit smugly in you chair hovering over them offering nothing that will give them relief?

That's exactly what it is, giving up. Throwing in the towel and just quitting is not brave or courageous.

Neither is sticking around in unbearable pain and suffering just to appease you. No one has answered this yet so I'll ask again. Are any of you brave enough to put a loaded gun in your mouth with the safety off and pull the trigger knowing your life will end at that moment? If you can't understand how that takes bravery, then I'm talking to a brick wall. I know so many people who acknowledge that it does take a whole lot of guts to jump into a certain situation knowing you will die from it. Are the brave soldiers who unselfishly jump on a live grenade cowards because they chose to end their life so others could live? Hell no! While their intentions could be to save the others, they still committed suicide. There bravery is beyond comparison. No offense meant in comparing our brave men and women in our armed forces to those others who have committed suicide for their own selfish reasons.

And those jumpers on 9/11 did not commit suicide in my eyes. They were being murdered and chose to die their own way instead of burning to death. Having the plug pulled when you are dying or in a vegetative state is not suicide. It is dying with dignity. Taking pills, hanging yourself, shooting yourself, slitting your writsts....those are suicide. Just my opinion on that matter.

Well, they did commit suicide. How do they know that maybe God was just about to rescue them if they had only waited one more minute? Dying with dignity, suicide, it all ends up from the choice of the patient willing to die from their on means.

And those jumpers on 9/11 did not commit suicide in my eyes. They were being murdered and chose to die their own way instead of burning to death. Having the plug pulled when you are dying or in a vegetative state is not suicide. It is dying with dignity. Taking pills, hanging yourself, shooting yourself, slitting your writsts....those are suicide. Just my opinion on that matter.

The only time I think suicide is brave is if your child is dying and needs a transplant to live, something that you have to harvest from a dead body. You know you're a match but cannot live without said organ. So you kill yourself after signing your donor card so that your child may have your organ. That takes courage.

Yes, that takes courage too. I believe it takes courage for anyone to take their life. I do think that their are some exceptions to this though. I don't think it takes courage for a bank robber who is about to get caught and not want to face the consequences to take his own life. There he is running away from the prospect of punishment and takes his life to escape it. I could probably come up with a few more instances but hopefully you will be able to glean the meaning from just this one.


Oh so it is only a brave act in your scenario, but doesn't take any bravery in any other scenario? Doesn't the act of taking your own life itself show some bravery in itself? If it was such an easy way out, why doesn't everyone do it? I would surmise that most who do it have a little bit of misfires going on in their heads. Maybe that's why it is easier for them to do it and doesn't require much bravery in order to end it all. I'm ok with this. Thought the desire to override ones self-preservation mode sure doesn't seem like an easy thing to do.
~Amy

who benefits the most from a suicide?

It depends. Could be the family of the one who committed suicide if he/she was an abuser. Could be someone who owed money to the person who committed suicide because then their debt would be clear. Many people could benefit from it.

who benefits the least from a suicide?

That too could have many answers if one chose to think about it.


therefore is it selfish?

I never said it wasn't.

So killing is courageousYour lack of logic and wrong information presented makes it so I can't really respond to your statement.


according to this logic curt cobain, chris farley, charles manson and jefferey dahmer were some of the nations most courageuos patriots

As pointed out by JB, only Cobain committed suicide. I have no idea where how you snatched the word patriot and included it in this talk.

Again, thanks for keeping it interesting and mostly civil. I have no problems with differing opinions, I just like knowing how you get to those opinions.

Spiritwalker
10-04-2009, 11:27 PM
I had much to say on this.. after reading what I was about to post... I had to delete...

I tasted the barrel of my gun.. I was a squeeze away from killing myself...

now 20 years later.. I can NOT BELIEVE how STUPID I was.. Time does not heal all wounds.. but time does make the pain less.

unless you have some incurable illness.. no excuse.. and new cures and treatments are found all the time..

I had a friend who killed herself... I loved her madly.. she was a coward. She was selfish.

At the very least... think about those who love you..

Buzzard
10-04-2009, 11:32 PM
I had much to say on this.. after reading what I was about to post... I had to delete...

I tasted the barrel of my gun.. I was a squeeze away from killing myself...

now 20 years later.. I can NOT BELIEVE how STUPID I was.. Time does not heal all wounds.. but time does make the pain less.

unless you have some incurable illness.. no excuse.. and new cures and treatments are found all the time..

I had a friend who killed herself... I loved her madly.. she was a coward. She was selfish.

At the very least... think about those who love you..

Glad you're still with us. I'll agree with the selfish part. I hope one day you will be able to put it completely past you.

Spiritwalker
10-04-2009, 11:48 PM
Glad you're still with us. I'll agree with the selfish part. I hope one day you will be able to put it completely past you.

Nothing is completely in the past. It was actually a defining moment in my life. I was well on my way to being a waste of space.

Thank you.

Bonnie
10-05-2009, 12:19 AM
Bonnie, do you mean the Alan Blackthorne case? I remember that really well because the guy was so cold and smooth and he almost got away with it. He is one evil guy.

Yes. I couldn't think of his name, but I can see his face in my mind's eye so clearly. Definitely one cold soul and evil!

flo
10-05-2009, 04:24 AM
I had much to say on this.. after reading what I was about to post... I had to delete...

I tasted the barrel of my gun.. I was a squeeze away from killing myself...

now 20 years later.. I can NOT BELIEVE how STUPID I was.. Time does not heal all wounds.. but time does make the pain less.

unless you have some incurable illness.. no excuse.. and new cures and treatments are found all the time..

I had a friend who killed herself... I loved her madly.. she was a coward. She was selfish.

At the very least... think about those who love you..

Your post moved me, I'm so glad you didn't go through with it and can share what you felt - IOW, I'm glad you're here.

Neezar
10-06-2009, 03:48 AM
Oct. 1) -- Doctors who let a 26-year-old woman die after she swallowed antifreeze acted within the law, a coroner has ruled.
Kerrie Wooltorton, of Norwich in eastern England, is believed to be the first person to use a living will to commit suicide, The Guardian newspaper reported Thursday.
She wrote the document on Sept. 15, 2007, three days before she poisoned herself. She called an ambulance, which took her to Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital. There, she gave doctors a letter addressed to "To whom this may concern."


Kerrie Wooltorton, 26, died after drinking antifreeze. She had left written instructions that doctors should not try to save her.


"If I come into hospital regarding an overdose or any attempt of my life, I would like for NO life saving treatment to be given," she wrote in the letter, which Sky News printed on its Web site.
"I am aware that you may think that because I called the ambulance I therefore want treatment, THIS IS NOT THE CASE! I do however want to be comfortable as nobody wants to die alone and scared and without going into details there are loads of reasons I do not want to die at home which I realize you will not understand and I apologise for this," she wrote. Wooltorton had been depressed over her inability to have a child, an inquest into her death heard. Doctors said they feared they would be charged with assault if they treated her because she had made her wishes clear, The Telegraph reported.
"It is a double-bind for doctors. She was very clear in her wishes. To have forced treatment on her would have been unlawful," hospital spokesman Andrew Stronach said, according to the Norwich Evening News.
Her family has said doctors should have tried to save her, despite her written instructions. But the doctors said Wooltorton was considered mentally competent to decide on treatment -- or refuse it.
"Please be assured that I am 100% aware of the consequences of this and the probable outcome of drinking antifreeze, eg death in 95-99% of cases and if I survive then kidney failure, I understand and accept them and will take 100% responsibility for this," she wrote.
Greater Norfolk Coroner William Armstrong said Monday that the hospital could not be blamed for Wooltorton's death. "She had capacity to consent to treatment which, it is more likely than not, would have prevented her death," he said. "She refused such treatment in full knowledge of the consequences and died as a result."
Living wills are commonly associated with people who are terminally ill and wish to refuse treatment, or people who would not want to be kept alive if they were mentally incapacitated in some sort of accident. In England, living wills were introduced under the 2005 Mental Capacity Act.
The ProLife Alliance called for a change in the law.
"A lot of people who attempt to commit suicide are thankful they have been revived the next day," said the group's chairwoman, Dominica Roberts.

http://news.aol.com/article/coroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie/697884?icid=webmail|wbml-aol|dl2|link1|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle% 2Fcoroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie%2F697884

What if her husband forced her to write this letter? :huh: This is murder people! Not suicide.

:ashamed: Sorry, I love CSI.


But seriously, how can these doctors say that she was mentally competent when she wrote this letter? Where I come from, being suicidal automatically gets you declared incompetent. :unsure-1:

MattHughesRocks
10-06-2009, 03:53 AM
I forgot about this thread. I posted then I runned :laugh:

I'm not going to read the whole thing because I've lost interest:laugh: but when your done, your done and I say go for it if that what's you want to do.People shouldn't be so selfish to want someone else to stick around just for them.:rolleyes: