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KENTUCKYREDBONE
09-29-2009, 05:17 AM
Wine is a mocker,strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

From my King James Bible!

Just something to consider!

NateR
09-29-2009, 05:32 AM
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Proverbs 31:6-7 (KJV)

:)

Llamafighter
09-29-2009, 01:39 PM
Proverbs 31:6-7 (KJV)

:)

now THAT'S a verse:)

Chris F
09-29-2009, 05:10 PM
Drinking is never prohibited in scripture only drunkenness. However Paul warns us not to do anything that may cause one to stumble. So a faithful Christian would not choose to drink, less he cause one to stumble. It is that everything is lawful but not everything is right thing. Grace is not a ticket to push the line.

NateR
09-29-2009, 06:21 PM
So a faithful Christian would not choose to drink, less he cause one to stumble. It is that everything is lawful but not everything is right thing. Grace is not a ticket to push the line.

Well, I would disagree with that because wasn't it Jesus who turned water into wine? And not just any old wine, but really good wine according to the wedding guests.

Paul very clearly tells us to be sensitive to the conscience of others, however, he was talking specifically about what was perceived as idolatry since the controversy was over meat sacrificed to idols. A very different situation from simply drinking alcohol. What if you are with a group of Christians who have no problem with drinking alcohol in moderation? I don't believe it would be a sin to drink at all. If there is no one there who is "weak" in their faith (Paul's word, not mine), then there is no harm in having a drink.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not a big alcohol drinker at all (I could probably count on one hand the number of beers I've had in the last 6 months); but I was raised in a fiercely non-alcoholic, Baptist family and many of the arguments against it have always seemed a little weak to me.

County Mike
09-29-2009, 06:41 PM
"Eat, Drink and be Merry."

I don't know who said it, but it works for me.

NateR
09-29-2009, 08:15 PM
"Eat, Drink and be Merry."

I don't know who said it, but it works for me.

Ecclesiastes 8:15
So I commended enjoyment, because a man has nothing better under the sun than to eat, drink, and be merry; for this will remain with him in his labor all the days of his life which God gives him under the sun.

:cool:

Boomer
09-30-2009, 02:10 AM
Ecclesiastes

My fav book in the Bible ..... :)

Mark
09-30-2009, 02:12 AM
Well, I would disagree with that because wasn't it Jesus who turned water into wine? And not just any old wine, but really good wine according to the wedding guests.

And this was after they drank all the wine they had.

Boomer
09-30-2009, 02:15 AM
Jesus did say that we (the church) would do greater things than He did in his name. I've been working on changing a pot of water into Jack Daniels for years. I'm not there yet .. but one day ....

VCURamFan
09-30-2009, 02:31 AM
Jesus did say that we (the church) would do greater things than He did in his name. I've been working on changing a pot of water into Jack Daniels for years. I'm not there yet .. but one day ....
Speaking of JD, brother, you & I still need to share a glass or two once you get back!

Play The Man
09-30-2009, 03:12 AM
I like this quote by Luther concerning wine:

Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women? The sun, the moon, and the stars have been worshiped. Shall we then pluck them out of the sky?

…see how much he [God] has been able to accomplish through me, though I did no more than pray and preach. The Word did it all. Had I wished I might have started a conflagration at Worms. But while I sat still and drank beer with Philip and Amsdorf, God dealt the papacy a mighty blow.

Below is a picture of a Lutheran Advent Calendar: http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/the-latest-post/2006/12/13/lutheran-advent-calendar.html

http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/storage/Lu.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1166045634625

Chris F
09-30-2009, 07:22 AM
Well, I would disagree with that because wasn't it Jesus who turned water into wine? And not just any old wine, but really good wine according to the wedding guests.

Paul very clearly tells us to be sensitive to the conscience of others, however, he was talking specifically about what was perceived as idolatry since the controversy was over meat sacrificed to idols. A very different situation from simply drinking alcohol. What if you are with a group of Christians who have no problem with drinking alcohol in moderation? I don't believe it would be a sin to drink at all. If there is no one there who is "weak" in their faith (Paul's word, not mine), then there is no harm in having a drink.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not a big alcohol drinker at all (I could probably count on one hand the number of beers I've had in the last 6 months); but I was raised in a fiercely non-alcoholic, Baptist family and many of the arguments against it have always seemed a little weak to me.

This just shows a lack of hermeneutics that I typically accuse you of.

1. Yes he turned water into wine. However wine had 2 stages. 1- New wine which was the first press and not yet fermented and it was considered the better wine to drink. 2- The fermented wine that would if drunk in excess cause one to become intoxicated. So Jesus made New wine. A simple word study and a better understanding of the time would have helped you better understand that section of scripture

2. Your logic to Paul's message is contradicting to his teaching but I know you are as hard headed as I am so telling you won't do any good.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
09-30-2009, 07:54 AM
I don't believe Jesus made ACOLICE WINE,but none Alcohol also don't believe Jesus meant for us to become intoxicated so why drink an intoxicating thing? With all the non intoxicating drinks available why drink alcohol except to get drunk? I ain't trying to accuse nobody of anything but I am trying to get Folks to consider that maybe alcohol is not a good thing to consume. I also want to clarify that I ain't talking about taking Medicine for legit purposes! I'll try to back my position better sometime when I got more time! If anybody wants to meantime they may consider studying the following!
Ephesians ch. 5 Verse 18
Proverbs ch. 4 Verses 11-17
Proverbs ch.23 Verses 29-32

All mine come from the KJV!
Not trying to down anybody,just I personally cannot have a discussion on Bible except for it being KJV. For some reason I don't feel right using any other version of the Bible!

CAVEMAN
09-30-2009, 03:33 PM
I'm always torn on this one because of this verse:

“Abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Thessalonians 5:22). Is alcohol, which induces drunkeness, an appearance of evil?

I do drink a beer from time to time, but it is rare! This issue is always one I have struggled with......

VCURamFan
09-30-2009, 05:04 PM
I'm always torn on this one because of this verse:

“Abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Thessalonians 5:22). Is alcohol, which induces drunkeness, an appearance of evil?

I do drink a beer from time to time, but it is rare! This issue is always one I have struggled with......
I think it comes down to your audience. I mean, when I'm around my mom's side of the family (who are all Baptist), I don't drink or talk about drinking because I don't want to give the appearance of evil. However, when I got over my brother or sister's place & they offer me a beer with dinner, I gladly accept.

NateR
09-30-2009, 05:42 PM
The alcohol=evil is more of a cultural thing. There are parts of Europe where it's not considered contrary to Christianity at all.

Crisco
09-30-2009, 06:16 PM
It's considered food in some parts of europe

NateR
09-30-2009, 06:20 PM
It's considered food in some parts of europe

Yep, beer was invented by Catholic monks as a form of liquid food. The alcohol content was necessary to preserve it, since refrigeration didn't exist in those days.

VCURamFan
09-30-2009, 06:21 PM
Yep, beer was invented by Catholic monks as a form of liquid food. The alcohol content was necessary to preserve it, since refrigeration didn't exist in those days.
See, I had heard that the monks didn't want to drink wine as they felt the Bible forbade it, so instead they invented beer so they could still get sloshed!!:laugh:

Crisco
09-30-2009, 06:46 PM
See, I had heard that the monks didn't want to drink wine as they felt the Bible forbade it, so instead they invented beer so they could still get sloshed!!:laugh:

Well that just don't make sense.

Chuck
09-30-2009, 07:26 PM
I'm always torn on this one because of this verse:

“Abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Thessalonians 5:22). Is alcohol, which induces drunkeness, an appearance of evil?

I do drink a beer from time to time, but it is rare! This issue is always one I have struggled with......

Perhaps your answer lies in the fact that you're struggling with it??

Chuck
09-30-2009, 07:27 PM
The alcohol=evil is more of a cultural thing. There are parts of Europe where it's not considered contrary to Christianity at all.

The same could be said for nudity/topless beaches. :wink:

County Mike
09-30-2009, 07:29 PM
The same could be said for nudity/topless beaches. :wink:

and there's absolutely nothing wrong with those.

Crisco
09-30-2009, 07:59 PM
and there's absolutely nothing wrong with those.

Those places are lke 80 % old fat dudes.

Llamafighter
09-30-2009, 08:00 PM
The same could be said for nudity/topless beaches. :wink:

:blink: I always go topless at the beach and have never heard two words about it.

unless you count "hey" and "Sexyama"

NateR
09-30-2009, 08:04 PM
Those places are lke 80 % old fat dudes.

I went to a beach when I was in Germany and I believe ALL of their beaches are "clothing optional." About 99% of those people had no business being naked out in public.:scared0015:

CAVEMAN
09-30-2009, 08:04 PM
Perhaps your answer lies in the fact that you're struggling with it??

Exactly!

County Mike
09-30-2009, 08:04 PM
Those places are lke 80 % old fat dudes.

You saw me there?

Crisco
09-30-2009, 08:21 PM
You saw me there?

Your like aged beef bro. No homo.

Mark
10-01-2009, 02:30 AM
This just shows a lack of hermeneutics that I typically accuse you of.

1. Yes he turned water into wine. However wine had 2 stages. 1- New wine which was the first press and not yet fermented and it was considered the better wine to drink. 2- The fermented wine that would if drunk in excess cause one to become intoxicated. So Jesus made New wine. A simple word study and a better understanding of the time would have helped you better understand that section of scripture.

The fact is he made wine. He turned water into wine how do you know if it was 1st or 2nd stage?

Chris F
10-01-2009, 03:38 AM
The fact is he made wine. He turned water into wine how do you know if it was 1st or 2nd stage?

Simple the fact they said the best for last which New Wine was considered the finer drink. SO we know for a fact by the customs and mannerisms of the time. Also the Greek gives us a great deal more insight. This is why I push proper hermeneutics and why one cannot trust their English understanding alone.

NateR
10-01-2009, 04:12 PM
Simple the fact they said the best for last which New Wine was considered the finer drink. SO we know for a fact by the customs and mannerisms of the time. Also the Greek gives us a great deal more insight. This is why I push proper hermeneutics and why one cannot trust their English understanding alone.

You might have to explain it in more detail that that, because your interpretation makes no sense. Exactly why are we to believe that this was new wine, when nothing in the text implies the word "new"?

In the context of the verse, the guests seem to be surprised that the best wine would be saved for last. So wouldn't that imply that the custom was to serve the best wine first?

John 2:9-10 (emphasis added):
They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

So you've got it backwards. They didn't intentionally save the best for last because the "best wine" didn't exist when they were planning the wedding. Also, the quality of the wine doesn't imply that it is alcoholic/non-alcoholic. There are wine enthusiasts who can tell you that there is good alcoholic wine and bad alcoholic wine. I'm not one of those people with a refined enough palate to tell the difference, but I know it is possible.

Also in all the different translations, translator notes, and commentaries that I read, there is no indication that this is "new wine" or non-alcoholic. Sounds to me like the twisting of scripture to fit a false theology.

Anyways, I'm not trying to justify my vices here, because I rarely drink alcohol and I know for a fact that Mark isn't trying to justify his vices because I have never seen him so much as touch a drop of alcohol in the three years that we have been friends.

The Bible clearly describes this as wine, so if you want us to believe that it is referring to something other than wine, then we need some evidence and not just your word to go on.

Boomer
10-01-2009, 04:52 PM
Simple the fact they said the best for last which New Wine was considered the finer drink. SO we know for a fact by the customs and mannerisms of the time. Also the Greek gives us a great deal more insight. This is why I push proper hermeneutics and why one cannot trust their English understanding alone.

:laugh: "proper" hermeneutics. :laugh:

Not uncommon for people’s understanding of such scriptures to be influenced by what they want it to say ... especially those drawn to legalism for control.

I know alot of the OT references that people with your understanding hold to. It has some merit. Then you have scriptures like:

Isaiah
25:6
On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines.

Since Jesus quoted Isaiah more than any other OT book. I think he had read this over quite a few times, but more importantly it represents the idea of what was considered the "best" wine hundreds of years before Christ did his first miracle. And in all the cultural studies I have done .. "New" wine was considered better in certain circumstances or rituals .. but not at a wedding party. It's a stretch to say that you "know" it was not fermented. You may not want it to be .. but you don't know. Especially considering all the uses for wine in Israel during that time and times past. :laugh:

Maglorius
10-01-2009, 05:13 PM
This is the question I have? In using proper hermeneutics, and that scripture interprets scripture, am I able to come to the conclusion that the water that Jesus turned into wine is non alcoholic, and that this is the new wine that comes from the 1 stage of wine making. I don't see the bible teaching us this.

Now I have been the drunkard. For alot of my life I lived as a drunkard and know what the bible refers to as what being a drunkard is. There is a difference in having a glass or two of wine during supper or a beer or two watching a UFC with a few buds. Than there is going to a bar and drinking a few hundred dollars worth of booze. I know the difference because I am living that difference now.

To kentuckredbone, you posted that you only read the KJV and cannot discuss anything other than it being KJV. That is ridiculous and you are doing yourself a disservice in not reading other translations. To me that is like saying, I only talk to people that go to a presbyterian church because that is the only church that really knows God.

County Mike
10-01-2009, 05:20 PM
The problem with the Bible is that it's too easy for someone to interpret it in a way that fits their own agenda. In many cases, it has been translated and re-written too many times to honestly KNOW what the original intention was.

VCURamFan
10-01-2009, 05:30 PM
This is the question I have? In using proper hermeneutics, and that scripture interprets scripture, am I able to come to the conclusion that the water that Jesus turned into wine is non alcoholic, and that this is the new wine that comes from the 1 stage of wine making. I don't see the bible teaching us this.

Now I have been the drunkard. For alot of my life I lived as a drunkard and know what the bible refers to as what being a drunkard is. There is a difference in having a glass or two of wine during supper or a beer or two watching a UFC with a few buds. Than there is going to a bar and drinking a few hundred dollars worth of booze. I know the difference because I am living that difference now.

To kentuckredbone, you posted that you only read the KJV and cannot discuss anything other than it being KJV. That is ridiculous and you are doing yourself a disservice in not reading other translations. To me that is like saying, I only talk to people that go to a presbyterian church because that is the only church that really knows God.
AMEN, BROTHER! I could not have said it any better myself.

(although we both know that the Frozen Chosen are God's favorites, right?:laugh:)

Boomer
10-01-2009, 05:34 PM
The problem with the Bible is that it's too easy for someone to interpret it in a way that fits their own agenda. In many cases, it has been translated and re-written too many times to honestly KNOW what the original intention was.

Indeed Mike. It happened to Israel in the anticipation of the Christ and it happens now. Its why we have so many denominational fragments. But Christ made it easy for us. He said to fulfill all of Gods intents ... We have to love God and love people. Later scripture also says you show your love for God by obeying Him. So, all we can do in this fallen state is try to understand Him and his ways.

Its not really a problem with the Bible. Its the problem with man.

County Mike
10-01-2009, 05:39 PM
Indeed Mike. It happened to Israel in the anticipation of the Christ and it happens now. Its why we have so many denominational fragments. But Christ made it easy for us. He said to fulfill all of Gods intents ... We have to love God and love people. Later scripture also says you show your love for God by obeying Him. So, all we can do in this fallen state is try to understand Him and his ways.

Its not really a problem with the Bible. Its the problem with man.

True. But since we don't have access to the original parchments or a mastery of the language and time, we have to accept what men have writting/interpreted. To avoid too much confusion, I try to skip the details. I prefer to live a good life by being kind to others and do as little harm as possible. Hopefully when my time comes, God will have mercy on me for my efforts, even if they were knowingly done in ignorance.

As for drinking wine or other alcoholic beverages, I believe that if drinking it does no harm then it's OK. However, if you're someone who struggles with anger and violence when drunk, then alcohol should be avoided because drinking it knowingly puts you into a bad state where you may do bad things. If you just get happy, have a good time and go to sleep, drink up.

Boomer
10-01-2009, 05:44 PM
True. But since we don't have access to the original parchments or a mastery of the language and time, we have to accept what men have writting/interpreted. To avoid too much confusion, I try to skip the details. I prefer to live a good life by being kind to others and do as little harm as possible. Hopefully when my time comes, God will have mercy on me for my efforts, even if they were knowingly done in ignorance.

As for drinking wine or other alcoholic beverages, I believe that if drinking it does no harm then it's OK. However, if you're someone who struggles with anger and violence when drunk, then alcohol should be avoided because drinking it knowingly puts you into a bad state where you may do bad things. If you just get happy, have a good time and go to sleep, drink up.

The discovery of the dead sea scrolls gave us access to the original parchments and the translations were very accruate over the ages. Taking the Bible out of the religious context .. it is one of the most well perserved and accurate reflections of ancient cultures we have.

God also made mercy easy. Its not based on any merits .. but on Grace through accepting Jesus Christ.

ianfer
10-01-2009, 06:56 PM
proverbs 20:1 is something to consider! i agree with you there! the warning in the verse is true. i have the translation from NIV; "wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise" ("led astray" is also translated into "deceived" or even "intoxicated" by NASB tranlation but i dont know how they mean this word (buzzed? trashed? any alcohol in your system?), but lets stick to lead astray or deceived =)

so, wouldnt this verse be saying "whoever is led astray by alcohol is not wise"
we must consider how we let alcohol influence our lives. im sure we all know of times/people who turned a blind eye on their own excessive drinking or missuse of the drink. does this verse outlaw the drink? i dont believe so, but it is a true warning that it is not wise to carelessly consume without thought and be decieved about how good your judgement will then be and be lead astray.

you can see this throughout the Bible. for example in proverbs 9 'wisdom' herself sets her table with food and wine, inviting us to "eat my food and drink my wine" (v. 5). and in proverbs, God warns more about ill-use of alcohol when he warns kings not to drink so much that they may be led astray into unjust rulings, oppressing people, and forgetting the laws of the land.(31:4-5)

alcohol seems to be a great gift by God but God also warns us that unwise use of it can lead to being led astray and even oppressing people. i agree, redbone, we should consider the warning! =D

NateR
10-01-2009, 09:39 PM
The discovery of the dead sea scrolls gave us access to the original parchments and the translations were very accruate over the ages. Taking the Bible out of the religious context .. it is one of the most well perserved and accurate reflections of ancient cultures we have.

God also made mercy easy. Its not based on any merits .. but on Grace through accepting Jesus Christ.

Exactly, another great way to test the accuracy of the Christian Bible is to read the Jewish Bible. The Jewish Bible is the Christian Old Testament. The rift between Christians and Jews began in 70 AD, so there was essentially no "cross-pollinization" of theology after that. What's interesting is that current translations of the Christian Old Testament match up almost word for word with current translations of the Hebrew Bible (the only difference is the order in which the books are placed - but they both use the exact same books). If it were true that Christians had spent 2000 years rewriting and revising the Bible, then the two texts would not be similar at all; but they are nearly identical.

Mark
10-01-2009, 09:48 PM
This just shows a lack of hermeneutics that I typically accuse you of.

Simple the fact they said the best for last which New Wine was considered the finer drink. SO we know for a fact by the customs and mannerisms of the time.

I really don't like how you talk to people on here. Are you always this pushy?

Play The Man
10-02-2009, 02:36 AM
alcohol seems to be a great gift by God but God also warns us that unwise use of it can lead to being led astray and even oppressing people. i agree, redbone, we should consider the warning! =D

I follow the advice of George Herbert in "The Church-Porch" and stop my drinking at two drinks:

Drink not the third glasse, which thou canst not tame,

When once it is within thee; but before

Mayst rule it, as thou list; and poure the shame,

Which it would poure on thee, upon the floore.

It is most just to throw that on the ground,

Which would throw me there, if I keep the round.

NateR
10-02-2009, 02:55 AM
All mine come from the KJV!
Not trying to down anybody,just I personally cannot have a discussion on Bible except for it being KJV. For some reason I don't feel right using any other version of the Bible!

Well, the problem with the King James version is that it's not a pure translation of the original manuscripts. It's simply an English translation of the Latin translation of the Greek manuscripts. So it is twice removed from the original texts. Three times removed if you are talking about the Old Testament, which was originally written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek.

Whenever we talk about the inerrancy and divine inspiration of scripture, we are talking about the Bible in it's original form, written in it's original languages. We are not talking about English translations of the Bible, which are not necessarily inerrant or divinely inspired. So, to treat the KJV version of the Bible like it's the only true version of the Bible is actually closer to heresy than anything else. You are basically saying that GOD inspired the writers of the Bible, then realized that He made some mistakes 1600 years after Christ was born, so He divinely inspired the King James translators to revise the Bible and make a few changes. That's not the truth and it's just not good theology.

Play The Man
10-02-2009, 03:18 AM
This just shows a lack of hermeneutics that I typically accuse you of.

1. Yes he turned water into wine. However wine had 2 stages. 1- New wine which was the first press and not yet fermented and it was considered the better wine to drink. 2- The fermented wine that would if drunk in excess cause one to become intoxicated. So Jesus made New wine. A simple word study and a better understanding of the time would have helped you better understand that section of scripture

2. Your logic to Paul's message is contradicting to his teaching but I know you are as hard headed as I am so telling you won't do any good.

In Matthew 11:19, Jesus said,
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

Why would the Pharisees make such an accusation, if Jesus was essentially drinking Welch's grape juice? Wouldn't the accusation only be meaningful if he was drinking alcohol?

KENTUCKYREDBONE
10-02-2009, 08:43 AM
Well, the problem with the King James version is that it's not a pure translation of the original manuscripts. It's simply an English translation of the Latin translation of the Greek manuscripts. So it is twice removed from the original texts. Three times removed if you are talking about the Old Testament, which was originally written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek.

Whenever we talk about the inerrancy and divine inspiration of scripture, we are talking about the Bible in it's original form, written in it's original languages. We are not talking about English translations of the Bible, which are not necessarily inerrant or divinely inspired. So, to treat the KJV version of the Bible like it's the only true version of the Bible is actually closer to heresy than anything else. You are basically saying that GOD inspired the writers of the Bible, then realized that He made some mistakes 1600 years after Christ was born, so He divinely inspired the King James translators to revise the Bible and make a few changes. That's not the truth and it's just not good theology.


Unless someday I learn for certain sure that I am wrong I am going to stick with the KJV for my translation! Now if I could read the original documents myself and know they were the original I could go from their. But at this point in time I'm sticking with the KJV as the best Translation!

Now onto the original topic! Are there any reason to drink an Alcoholic drink other than for the intoxicating effect of it? Everybody I have seen drink does it to get drunk! They may not think they are but intoxicated they most definitely were.

County Mike
10-02-2009, 11:17 AM
Now onto the original topic! Are there any reason to drink an Alcoholic drink other than for the intoxicating effect of it? Everybody I have seen drink does it to get drunk! They may not think they are but intoxicated they most definitely were.

Sometimes, it helps me sleep. I don't use it for that very often, but every once in a while it will be late, I'm wound up and have to get up early in the morning. A beer or especially a margarita, helps me fall asleep and get the rest I need.

TexasRN
10-02-2009, 11:41 AM
I like the way wine tastes. I don't drink it to get drunk. I like mixed drinks as well. I have been drunk in the past but don't like the feeling. I just like to feel relaxed and will occasionally have a drink or 2. I average less than one a month. I don't see anything wrong with that.


~Amy

Neezar
10-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Now onto the original topic! Are there any reason to drink an Alcoholic drink other than for the intoxicating effect of it? Everybody I have seen drink does it to get drunk! They may not think they are but intoxicated they most definitely were.

Well when and why does the bible (the KJV) tell you that you should drink?

And does getting drunk every now and again mean that you are a drunkard?

Neezar
10-02-2009, 01:50 PM
Indeed Mike. It happened to Israel in the anticipation of the Christ and it happens now. Its why we have so many denominational fragments. But Christ made it easy for us. He said to fulfill all of Gods intents ... We have to love God and love people. Later scripture also says you show your love for God by obeying Him. So, all we can do in this fallen state is try to understand Him and his ways.

Its not really a problem with the Bible. Its the problem with man.

The discovery of the dead sea scrolls gave us access to the original parchments and the translations were very accruate over the ages. Taking the Bible out of the religious context .. it is one of the most well perserved and accurate reflections of ancient cultures we have.

God also made mercy easy. Its not based on any merits .. but on Grace through accepting Jesus Christ.



Matt,

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of everyday's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with a passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints, --- I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life! --- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.

Your friend,

Denise

MattHughesRocks
10-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Wowser :scared0015:


:laugh:

CAVEMAN
10-02-2009, 02:50 PM
Just thought I would share this:

http://biblebrowser.com/proverbs/23-31.htm

Neezar
10-02-2009, 02:54 PM
So people who can't handle their liquor shouldn't drink.


:laugh: But of course, that isn't me.

Llamafighter
10-02-2009, 02:55 PM
So people who can't handle their liquor shouldn't drink.


:laugh: But of course, that isn't me.

I can handle a lot of liquor:cool:

CAVEMAN
10-02-2009, 02:57 PM
So people who can't handle their liquor shouldn't drink.


:laugh: But of course, that isn't me.

That's what I kind of gathered from it to!

Boomer
10-02-2009, 02:57 PM
Matt,

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of everyday's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with a passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints, --- I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life! --- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.

Your friend,

Denise

:) You're high up on my list of favorite folks too D. Thanks.

TexasRN
10-02-2009, 03:49 PM
I can handle a lot of liquor:cool:

Yes, you can.:ninja:


~Amy

Mark
10-02-2009, 10:55 PM
Boomer,

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of everyday's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with a passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints, --- I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life! --- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.

Just something I've wanted to say for a long time.Your friend,


Mark

Boomer
10-02-2009, 10:57 PM
Boomer,

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of everyday's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with a passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints, --- I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life! --- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.

Just something I've wanted to say for a long time.Your friend,


Mark



:laugh: :laugh: homo ...

Neezar
10-02-2009, 11:31 PM
It was better when I did it.




:laugh:

Chris F
10-03-2009, 01:10 AM
You might have to explain it in more detail that that, because your interpretation makes no sense. Exactly why are we to believe that this was new wine, when nothing in the text implies the word "new"?

In the context of the verse, the guests seem to be surprised that the best wine would be saved for last. So wouldn't that imply that the custom was to serve the best wine first? The implication of new comes from an understaning of culture and context

John 2:9-10 (emphasis added):


So you've got it backwards. They didn't intentionally save the best for last because the "best wine" didn't exist when they were planning the wedding. Also, the quality of the wine doesn't imply that it is alcoholic/non-alcoholic. There are wine enthusiasts who can tell you that there is good alcoholic wine and bad alcoholic wine. I'm not one of those people with a refined enough palate to tell the difference, but I know it is possible.If you stop and breathe for a second and then do a simple study on the difference between new wine and wine you will have your evidence and your info. History and customs clearly show us that there were two types of wine and when you know this fact and you read this verse and see the host mention you save the good wine then look and see that era of history considered the new wine to be a better product you can then understand what it being said. It is really simple if you use proper hermeneutic instead reading with rose colored glasses.

Also in all the different translations, translator notes, and commentaries that I read, there is no indication that this is "new wine" or non-alcoholic. Sounds to me like the twisting of scripture to fit a false theology.That's because the grammar reveals that. It was not written in English

Anyways, I'm not trying to justify my vices here, because I rarely drink alcohol and I know for a fact that Mark isn't trying to justify his vices because I have never seen him so much as touch a drop of alcohol in the three years that we have been friends.Never said that nor inferred that. I am just trying to educate you on proper hermeneutics so you can rightly divide the word of truth.

The Bible clearly describes this as wine, so if you want us to believe that it is referring to something other than wine, then we need some evidence and not just your word to go on. Do the study I suggested. Even one of your favorites John Macarthur teaches it this way.

Answers above in red

Chris F
10-03-2009, 01:15 AM
This is the question I have? In using proper hermeneutics, and that scripture interprets scripture, am I able to come to the conclusion that the water that Jesus turned into wine is non alcoholic, and that this is the new wine that comes from the 1 stage of wine making. I don't see the bible teaching us this.

Now I have been the drunkard. For alot of my life I lived as a drunkard and know what the bible refers to as what being a drunkard is. There is a difference in having a glass or two of wine during supper or a beer or two watching a UFC with a few buds. Than there is going to a bar and drinking a few hundred dollars worth of booze. I know the difference because I am living that difference now.

To kentuckredbone, you posted that you only read the KJV and cannot discuss anything other than it being KJV. That is ridiculous and you are doing yourself a disservice in not reading other translations. To me that is like saying, I only talk to people that go to a presbyterian church because that is the only church that really knows God.

Then you have ignored a large chunk of Paul's teaching. We know it is new wine because of what the host said and some simple history. Scripture as I said never condemn drinking nor did I say that. What it does teach us is to not doing anything that may cause anyone to stumble int their walk. So when people simply proof text their verse as boomer did above then they can often justify any sin they want.

Chris F
10-03-2009, 01:18 AM
The discovery of the dead sea scrolls gave us access to the original parchments and the translations were very accruate over the ages. Taking the Bible out of the religious context .. it is one of the most well perserved and accurate reflections of ancient cultures we have.

God also made mercy easy. Its not based on any merits .. but on Grace through accepting Jesus Christ.

Dead sea scrolls were old but not the originals. there are no autograph that have survived. And the last comment is exactly what Paul wanted avoided. He did not want people to use grace as an excuse to commit sin. Read Romans there Boomer.

Chris F
10-03-2009, 01:19 AM
I really don't like how you talk to people on here. Are you always this pushy?

I like to rib NateR that all. As for coming off pushy. Yes when I know I am right. :)

Chris F
10-03-2009, 01:22 AM
In Matthew 11:19, Jesus said,


Why would the Pharisees make such an accusation, if Jesus was essentially drinking Welch's grape juice? Wouldn't the accusation only be meaningful if he was drinking alcohol?

Because you are refering to Matthew and we were discussing John. Apples and grapefruits sir. Since there were no fridges it was impossible not to have wine that was unfermented for very long. Basic science proves this.

Mark
10-03-2009, 01:54 AM
The implication of new comes from an understaning of culture and context

Why does Jesus refer to old wine as better than new wine in Luke 5:39?

"And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' "

Also, the only verse I found that mentions "new wine" is Acts 2:13:

Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”

This verse makes it sound like you can get drunk off of new wine. Am I wrong here?

And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”

In John 2, there is only one word used for wine. Doesn't this word mean the same thing all the way through this passage?

Chris F
10-03-2009, 02:18 AM
Why does Jesus refer to old wine as better than new wine in Luke 5:39?Why do you all not get it. You must look at the context. Here Jesus is talking about the pharisees and their desires for the old ways of Moses. If you truly think Jesus is saying the old wine is better then you do not understand the New covenant at all Mark. In context of Luke Jesus is clearly speaking of the old vs new as it pertains to the pharisees. My guess is all that you did was use a concordance and look up the word and found a proof text. You must keep it in context.



Also, the only verse I found that mentions "new wine" is Acts 2:13: They were mocking them. I guess the bible needs a smiley like this after that verse :laugh: The joke is they were drunk in the morning on wine that is not that strong or not event fermented yet. Thus the reason is was such a mockery of the people in the upper room. Sadly this same sort of persecution and mockery happens to pentecostals today.

This verse makes it sound like you can get drunk off of new wine. Am I wrong here? You missed the joke. They were making fun of them.

In John 2, there is only one word used for wine. Doesn't this word mean the same thing all the way through this passage?

Yes in Greek the word oinos has the same meaning for wine in either stage. There were no fridges. The grape juice would have started fermenting very quick in such a hot area of the world. New wine was the freshest it does not mean it was free from ferment. But since Jesus just made it prior to its serving we can trust it was the freshest possible and the highest quality. Read a book on manners and customs of the bible and look at this process. Was it perfect and was wine free of alchoal. Not likely! The grapes would had most assuredly began to ferment with out fridges. The reason people preach that this wedding miracle was not fermented was because Jesus made it and not man and why would Jesus create something that contains rot? So many many pastors and bible teacher preach this as non fermented new wine. Hope that helps.

Play The Man
10-03-2009, 07:41 AM
Because you are refering to Matthew and we were discussing John. Apples and grapefruits sir. Since there were no fridges it was impossible not to have wine that was unfermented for very long. Basic science proves this.

Chris F, did Jesus drink alcohol?

Jonlion
10-03-2009, 05:17 PM
Unless someday I learn for certain sure that I am wrong I am going to stick with the KJV for my translation! Now if I could read the original documents myself and know they were the original I could go from their. But at this point in time I'm sticking with the KJV as the best Translation!

Now onto the original topic! Are there any reason to drink an Alcoholic drink other than for the intoxicating effect of it? Everybody I have seen drink does it to get drunk! They may not think they are but intoxicated they most definitely were.



The KJV is a translation, therefore why wouldn't you accept the validity of the original as it is what they used to translate from. Its Illogical.

Now back to topic, I have been a drunkard, I still struggle with it but I worked hard all day, its been hot and i walk into a Pub/bar and enjoy a beautiful glass of beer. Its taste is amazing.

I have also ate dinner and enjoyed a glass of wine with it.

On these occasions, I am not drinking to get drunk and did not get intoxicated.

I believe that alcohol is ok to drink, the warning is on drunkenness.

So if you know one beer turns to 6 or a glass of wine turns to 2 bottles, then I think Jesus would expect you to abstain from alcohol. But if you can enjoy it without getting drunk, then its fine.

Chris F
10-03-2009, 05:41 PM
Chris F, did Jesus drink alcohol?

As I said there were no fridges so the wine would have quickly began to ferment and the water was even worse to drink. So I would say yes he may have. However I do not believe he created alcohol. However he very well may have abstained from it and just drank the nasty water. I had to edit this because I wanted to make myself more clearer. So I decided just to post what I was required to sign we I became a minister and I think this excerpt explains why Jesus probably did not drink the wine and why I think no real Christian would want to drink anything.

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4187_abstinence.pdf

Play The Man
10-03-2009, 06:59 PM
As I said there were no fridges so the wine would have quickly began to ferment and the water was even worse to drink. So I would say yes he may have. However I do not believe he created alcohol. However he very well may have abstained from it and just drank the nasty water. I had to edit this because I wanted to make myself more clearer. So I decided just to post what I was required to sign we I became a minister and I think this excerpt explains why Jesus probably did not drink the wine and why I think no real Christian would want to drink anything.

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4187_abstinence.pdf

Thank you

Mark
10-03-2009, 11:35 PM
We know it is new wine because of what the host said and some simple history.

I do not believe he created alcohol.

Why don't we leave it as we don't know if it was alcoholic or not.

adamt
10-04-2009, 12:38 AM
define drunk

adamt
10-04-2009, 12:39 AM
is alcohol damaging to the temple of God we are supposed to be a steward of?

adamt
10-04-2009, 12:56 AM
it is terribly hard to be on the same side as Chris of any debate. Please regard my questions and view as my own and don't group me in with him, I am not at all judgemental on moot issues such as this. I have my views yall have yours, let bygones be bygones. I respect your views.

Having said that. How do you feel about sinning against another christians conscience.

As in ..... if I truly believe it is a sin to drink and you would cause me to stumble were you to justify or do it in front of me.... is it then a sin?

This would be the theology of I corinthians 8, the sensitivity to a lesser brethrens immaturity.

And no I am not offended by you drinking, that was hypothetical. However a child of an abusive alcoholic that is recently converted might not be hypothetical. Or a spouse of someone killed by a drunk driver.

And yes I know this is semantics, but i am just trying to offer civil discussion. Iron sharpens Iron. I only want to have a good christian friendly discussion without the pompous condescension. I appreciate good discussion.

Having said that I will continue.

I cor 10:31: Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God

Can you drink to God's glory? Use His money on alcohol?

I think we agree that being drunk is a sin right?

Is gluttony a sin?

Is smoking a sin?

Is smoking marijuana a sin?

Boomer
10-04-2009, 01:14 AM
define drunk

Oh my gosh I just pissed myself but thank God Im not wearing any pants ...

adamt
10-04-2009, 01:25 AM
Oh my gosh I just pissed myself but thank God Im not wearing any pants ...

interestingly enough i think that right thar is a pretty good definition :laugh::wink:

Boomer
10-04-2009, 01:33 AM
interestingly enough i think that right thar is a pretty good definition :laugh::wink:

:biggrin-1:

Adam you bring up some good questions and honestly as I have said before no one should be turning to the internet for Spiritual guidance. people are at different points in their walk with Christ and we learn and grow in Him Spiritually as we do physcially in stages. You never know how what is being said will effect someone with a new understanding of God or going through a time were it causes more damage than good. Talking about ones understanding of the scripture is fine and there will be different levels of understanding according to where people are at .. but we have a resident expert on all things yashewa that knows all, sees all and we should feel so blessed he has graced our board with his wisdom. Only a real Christan would.

If drinking is a conviction for you sick with it brother. God will bless it. If we ever meet up and I have a Jack and coke in my hands .. just pray me through it and get the next round. :wink:

Play The Man
10-04-2009, 01:45 AM
is alcohol damaging to the temple of God we are supposed to be a steward of?

For me, no. I have a High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol value that is worse than 95%+ percent of the population. The condition puts me at higher risk for heart disease, the most common cause of death in the U.S. In addition to exercising and taking medication, I drink 1-2 drinks of alcohol per day because it has been medically proven to increase HDL cholesterol. This was discussed in detail with my physician. I have not been drunk in 15 years. Alcohol will likely help prolong my life. I agree that alcohol can be incredibly damaging - cirrhosis, DUI accidents, alcoholism, fights, etc.; however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation.

Boomer
10-04-2009, 02:01 AM
For me, no. I have a High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol value that is worse than 95%+ percent of the population. The condition puts me at higher risk for heart disease, the most common cause of death in the U.S. In addition to exercising and taking medication, I drink 1-2 drinks of alcohol per day because it has been medically proven to increase HDL cholesterol. This was discussed in detail with my physician. I have not been drunk in 15 years. Alcohol will likely help prolong my life. I agree that alcohol can be incredibly damaging - cirrhosis, DUI accidents, alcoholism, fights, etc.; however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation.

<breaks out into old Spiritual> <clap clap .. clap> <clap clap .. clap>

Oh my Loooord Lord Lord Looord. Oh my Looord Lord Lord Loord. Pack in the Animals two by two .. the ox the camel and the kangaroo!! Packed in the animals oh so tight .. poor old noah couldn't sleep that night ... ummm hummmmmm .... ummm hummmm

Preach on brotha .. preach on!!!

adamt
10-04-2009, 02:28 AM
:biggrin-1:

Adam you bring up some good questions and honestly as I have said before no one should be turning to the internet for Spiritual guidance. people are at different points in their walk with Christ and we learn and grow in Him Spiritually as we do physcially in stages. You never know how what is being said will effect someone with a new understanding of God or going through a time were it causes more damage than good. Talking about ones understanding of the scripture is fine and there will be different levels of understanding according to where people are at .. but we have a resident expert on all things yashewa that knows all, sees all and we should feel so blessed he has graced our board with his wisdom. Only a real Christan would.

If drinking is a conviction for you sick with it brother. God will bless it. If we ever meet up and I have a Jack and coke in my hands .. just pray me through it and get the next round. :wink:

For me, no. I have a High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol value that is worse than 95%+ percent of the population. The condition puts me at higher risk for heart disease, the most common cause of death in the U.S. In addition to exercising and taking medication, I drink 1-2 drinks of alcohol per day because it has been medically proven to increase HDL cholesterol. This was discussed in detail with my physician. I have not been drunk in 15 years. Alcohol will likely help prolong my life. I agree that alcohol can be incredibly damaging - cirrhosis, DUI accidents, alcoholism, fights, etc.; however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation.


okay now remember..... i am NOT judging you, merely bored on a saturday night :laugh: and playing the antagonist here :tongue0011: nothing personal, i hope to meet ya both some day and shoot a record buck together, you guys rattle and i'll snipe :)

like boomer said.... personal convictions... like eating idol meats... which i have NEVER done... so don't judge me...can't help it----- born a baptist :laugh:



PTM---- i'm fat. my physician said exercise is good. studies show sex is good exercise and stimulates good hormones and neurons... that don't mean i can cheat on my wonderful wife just to get more hanky panky, even if it would slim me down

"however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation" <------ sounds like what an abortionist told me last week

seriously though it don't sound like you're a drunk.... please know I ain't looking down my nose, just talkin'

boomer---- appreciate the points, but you know that coke will kill ya :laugh:

if i get the next round i'll have to get ya a pepsi



i know my arguments could be taken all the way to the extremes. I drink caffeine, which is arguably worse than alcohol right??? trust me i will never be an organic vegan whacko.... i'm just posing questions to induce critical thinking.....

I'm happy to call a truce.... or accept boomers I guess.

Boomer
10-04-2009, 02:40 AM
okay now remember..... i am NOT judging you, merely bored on a saturday night :laugh: and playing the antagonist here :tongue0011: nothing personal, i hope to meet ya both some day and shoot a record buck together, you guys rattle and i'll snipe :)

like boomer said.... personal convictions... like eating idol meats... which i have NEVER done... so don't judge me...can't help it----- born a baptist :laugh:



PTM---- i'm fat. my physician said exercise is good. studies show sex is good exercise and stimulates good hormones and neurons... that don't mean i can cheat on my wonderful wife just to get more hanky panky, even if it would slim me down

No, it means you need to go out. Get a Barry White CD ... some candles and something called peterbutter (its great) and start working those calories off a good healthy way. Get al lthe flavors of peterbutter so she'll keep come'n backfor more!!!!

"however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation" <------ sounds like what an abortionist told me last week

seriously though it don't sound like you're a drunk.... please know I ain't looking down my nose, just talkin'

boomer---- appreciate the points, but you know that coke will kill ya :laugh:

if i get the next round i'll have to get ya a pepsi

pepsi and jack are fine as long as you don't forget the lime. God help you if you forget the lime. <shakes fists>


i know my arguments could be taken all the way to the extremes. I drink caffeine, which is arguably worse than alcohol right??? trust me i will never be an organic vegan whacko.... i'm just posing questions to induce critical thinking.....

I'm happy to call a truce.... or accept boomers I guess.

NO guesses .... just accept boomers ... and send me all your money ... no no .. don't think about it ... just goooo with this accepting Boomers every word .... its what Jesus said to do .. .somewhere I'm sure.... just .. write that check.

Play The Man
10-04-2009, 02:51 AM
okay now remember..... i am NOT judging you, merely bored on a saturday night :laugh: and playing the antagonist here :tongue0011: nothing personal, i hope to meet ya both some day and shoot a record buck together, you guys rattle and i'll snipe :)

like boomer said.... personal convictions... like eating idol meats... which i have NEVER done... so don't judge me...can't help it----- born a baptist :laugh:



PTM---- i'm fat. my physician said exercise is good. studies show sex is good exercise and stimulates good hormones and neurons... that don't mean i can cheat on my wonderful wife just to get more hanky panky, even if it would slim me down

"however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation" <------ sounds like what an abortionist told me last week

seriously though it don't sound like you're a drunk.... please know I ain't looking down my nose, just talkin'

boomer---- appreciate the points, but you know that coke will kill ya :laugh:

if i get the next round i'll have to get ya a pepsi



i know my arguments could be taken all the way to the extremes. I drink caffeine, which is arguably worse than alcohol right??? trust me i will never be an organic vegan whacko.... i'm just posing questions to induce critical thinking.....

I'm happy to call a truce.... or accept boomers I guess.

How about you just have relations more frequently with your own wife?

I don't think it is fair (or beneficial to your argument) to equate drinking one glass of wine with a meal to performing abortions.

Neezar
10-04-2009, 04:54 AM
Boomer! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
10-04-2009, 06:44 AM
For me, no. I have a High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol value that is worse than 95%+ percent of the population. The condition puts me at higher risk for heart disease, the most common cause of death in the U.S. In addition to exercising and taking medication, I drink 1-2 drinks of alcohol per day because it has been medically proven to increase HDL cholesterol. This was discussed in detail with my physician. I have not been drunk in 15 years. Alcohol will likely help prolong my life. I agree that alcohol can be incredibly damaging - cirrhosis, DUI accidents, alcoholism, fights, etc.; however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation.

Is it possible to get those same benefits without Alcohol?

Play The Man
10-04-2009, 07:17 AM
Is it possible to get those same benefits without Alcohol?

I have had improvement using alcohol, medication and exercise; however, even with treatment my numbers don't get to a "normal" level. Hopefully, better medications will come along. I will keep using all three to get values as close to normal as I can get.

Buzzard
10-04-2009, 07:37 AM
I have had improvement using alcohol, medication and exercise; however, even with treatment my numbers don't get to a "normal" level. Hopefully, better medications will come along. I will keep using all three to get values as close to normal as I can get.

Drink Tequila, if that doesn't get you better, maybe the meanness that Tequila causes will scare it out of you. You could also try eating the worm.:scared0015:

cubsfan47
10-04-2009, 01:43 PM
Is it possible to get those same benefits without Alcohol?

I have the same problem with HDL; it's apparently one of those "familial" things. I currently take a "combo" medication and that has helped a lot. I have started on an exercise prugram which includes a lot of cardio. That also helps. Diet hasn't made much difference in my case.

Here's the thing about wine for me: My paternal grandfather brought vines with him from Germany and made his own wine until he was about 85 or so. Grandpa drank wine but wasn't a drunk. He lived to be a 101. My dad lived to be only 91, but he had a high pressure job. He drank, but was never drunk. I cannot ever remember him being so. Anyway my personal experience has convinced me that this come down to a question of moderation. Consuming wine, within certain limits, can be beneficial. My doctor has the same opinion.

I consider wine, sex, and other sorts of pleasure in life to be gifts He gave us. They have a proper use, and it is when that we go outside that we sin.

Thing is, I believe though that proper use varies between people. I can't recall the exact citation, but didn't Paul write about how some people can eat meat but others only vegetables? Which makes the quantity frequency decision much harder.

TexasRN
10-04-2009, 01:49 PM
I'm with cubsfan on this one.


~Amy

adamt
10-04-2009, 02:34 PM
How about you just have relations more frequently with your own wife?

right now we are having complications with a pregnancy, so that would be a good reason but in general it is just a hypothetical....

I don't think it is fair (or beneficial to your argument) to equate drinking one glass of wine with a meal to performing abortions.

i didn't compare alcohol and abortions.... i used the same logic you justified alcohol with to justify abortions..... that same coomparison can be used with doctors recommending both said actions


also know i particularly enjoy "arguing" with you, as i don't think you get personally offended and you are good at civilly and very competently making your point

VCURamFan
10-04-2009, 03:02 PM
I have the same problem with HDL; it's apparently one of those "familial" things. I currently take a "combo" medication and that has helped a lot. I have started on an exercise prugram which includes a lot of cardio. That also helps. Diet hasn't made much difference in my case.

Here's the thing about wine for me: My paternal grandfather brought vines with him from Germany and made his own wine until he was about 85 or so. Grandpa drank wine but wasn't a drunk. He lived to be a 101. My dad lived to be only 91, but he had a high pressure job. He drank, but was never drunk. I cannot ever remember him being so. Anyway my personal experience has convinced me that this come down to a question of moderation. Consuming wine, within certain limits, can be beneficial. My doctor has the same opinion.

I consider wine, sex, and other sorts of pleasure in life to be gifts He gave us. They have a proper use, and it is when that we go outside that we sin.

Thing is, I believe though that proper use varies between people. I can't recall the exact citation, but didn't Paul write about how some people can eat meat but others only vegetables? Which makes the quantity frequency decision much harder.This.

Chris F
10-04-2009, 05:14 PM
Why don't we leave it as we don't know if it was alcoholic or not.

In that section of John Mark we know 100% because from time of dipping to the host mouth there is not way on earth it could have fermented. A science buff can better explain the fermenting process but I know it takes more then minutes.

Chris F
10-04-2009, 05:24 PM
For me, no. I have a High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol value that is worse than 95%+ percent of the population. The condition puts me at higher risk for heart disease, the most common cause of death in the U.S. In addition to exercising and taking medication, I drink 1-2 drinks of alcohol per day because it has been medically proven to increase HDL cholesterol. This was discussed in detail with my physician. I have not been drunk in 15 years. Alcohol will likely help prolong my life. I agree that alcohol can be incredibly damaging - cirrhosis, DUI accidents, alcoholism, fights, etc.; however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation.

The Book of Job says God already knows the very moment we are going to die and that there is nothing you can do to increase your life. So biblically speaking drinking because you believe it will prolong your life is not scriptural at all. We are the "called out ones" if we act just as the world does then how can we call ourselves separate? Paul is very clear in regards to Christina liberty. We are to live righteous and holy lives so that God will be glorified. Be holy even as your father in heaven is Holy. We are called living epistles and people read us to help them come to grace. How you live directly reflects Jesus. When you drink Jesus is drinking in the minds of those who watch you. Not sure how any of us can even desire to justify our actions with Christina liberty. Just because it is okay does not make it right as Paul said. This is one of those issues that have cause rifts in the body for years. So i doubt any of us will change years of disagreement that is for sure. :)

Chris F
10-04-2009, 05:34 PM
I think what it boils down to is not who is right or worng down here, but who is right up there. If you truly believe you can to the line of living like the world and still be saved then have at it. I just pray you are right. An eternity of Hell is a horrible trade off for some alcohol. All I have to go by is the bible and it is clear that just because it is not a sin does not mean we should do it. He told Timothy to drink some to help his medical situation just as Play the Man is claiming. However, we have modern medicine and other options and if what you do can cause anyone to stumble then it is not wise to do it. The scriptures are full of verses show we are to live a righteous life, not to the lie. So I pray if that is what you believe that you are right. Because if you are not are you prepared to die and meet Him to be judges by the standards of the Bible? Any questions for me please just PM and I will be happy to share what I know.

Neezar
10-04-2009, 05:46 PM
I think what it boils down to is not who is right or worng down here, but who is right up there. If you truly believe you can to the line of living like the world and still be saved then have at it. I just pray you are right. An eternity of Hell is a horrible trade off for some alcohol. All I have to go by is the bible and it is clear that just because it is not a sin does not mean we should do it.

He told Timothy to drink some to help his medical situation just as Play the Man is claiming. However, we have modern medicine and other options and if what you do can cause anyone to stumble then it is not wise to do it.

What would ever lead you to believe that a modern medicine wouldn't be worse for you than alcohol? There are No modern medicines without side effects. If it's good enough for Timothy then it's good enough for Play.


The scriptures are full of verses show we are to live a righteous life, not to the lie. So I pray if that is what you believe that you are right. Because if you are not are you prepared to die and meet Him to be judges by the standards of the Bible? Any questions for me please just PM and I will be happy to share what I know.

All I have to go by is the bible and it is clear that just because it is not a sin does not mean we should do it.

if what you do can cause anyone to stumble then it is not wise to do it

Chris, I have seen you cause men to stumble on here just with your words. I hope that Hell won't be a trade off for your temporary entertainment.

Is your being on this forum not being of the world, in it, living like the world or whatever else that wording is you are throwing around?

TexasRN
10-04-2009, 05:50 PM
I think what it boils down to is not who is right or worng down here, but who is right up there. If you truly believe you can to the line of living like the world and still be saved then have at it. I just pray you are right. An eternity of Hell is a horrible trade off for some alcohol. All I have to go by is the bible and it is clear that just because it is not a sin does not mean we should do it. He told Timothy to drink some to help his medical situation just as Play the Man is claiming. However, we have modern medicine and other options and if what you do can cause anyone to stumble then it is not wise to do it. The scriptures are full of verses show we are to live a righteous life, not to the lie. So I pray if that is what you believe that you are right. Because if you are not are you prepared to die and meet Him to be judges by the standards of the Bible? Any questions for me please just PM and I will be happy to share what I know.

Ok, I'm not big on debating in the Christianity section because I am really not good at it. I'm just going to post a few thoughts that your post brings to my mind. It seems to me that you are saying that even though I was saved August of 1997 (sorry, don't have the exact date) I may go to hell anyway because I have an occasional glass of wine or two. That does not fit with what I know of my God. I know I will be judged but um, if drinking is not a sin and I drink and I cause no other person harm when I do drink then how is it I will go to hell for it? I live my life every day doing my very best. Somehow I think God knows that and accepts my best as just that.

My little brother quit going to church because he was told by the "righteous" that no matter what he did he was going to hell. So he decided there was no point to it all. Why try to be good and be saved when you're going to hell anyway for tiny little mistakes? It makes me so very sad that even after all these years he still feels that way because of what some humans told him.


~Amy

Chuck
10-04-2009, 06:08 PM
I think what it boils down to is not who is right or worng down here, but who is right up there. If you truly believe you can to the line of living like the world and still be saved then have at it. I just pray you are right. An eternity of Hell is a horrible trade off for some alcohol. All I have to go by is the bible and it is clear that just because it is not a sin does not mean we should do it. He told Timothy to drink some to help his medical situation just as Play the Man is claiming. However, we have modern medicine and other options and if what you do can cause anyone to stumble then it is not wise to do it. The scriptures are full of verses show we are to live a righteous life, not to the lie. So I pray if that is what you believe that you are right. Because if you are not are you prepared to die and meet Him to be judges by the standards of the Bible? Any questions for me please just PM and I will be happy to share what I know.

Isn't that a contradiction? If you're saying it's not a sin... how could an eternity in Hell even be a factor in this conversation??

Boomer
10-04-2009, 07:28 PM
The Book of Job says God already knows the very moment we are going to die and that there is nothing you can do to increase your life. So biblically speaking drinking because you believe it will prolong your life is not scriptural at all. We are the "called out ones" if we act just as the world does then how can we call ourselves separate? Paul is very clear in regards to Christina liberty. We are to live righteous and holy lives so that God will be glorified. Be holy even as your father in heaven is Holy. We are called living epistles and people read us to help them come to grace. How you live directly reflects Jesus. When you drink Jesus is drinking in the minds of those who watch you. Not sure how any of us can even desire to justify our actions with Christina liberty. Just because it is okay does not make it right as Paul said. This is one of those issues that have cause rifts in the body for years. So i doubt any of us will change years of disagreement that is for sure. :)

The Bible also says a fool can die before his time ... so him not being foolish with regards to his medical condition will prolong his life. Kinda like someone who is fat might die from a heart attack from eating to many cup cakes and foolishly looking away from what it does to his/her body.

And yes .. we should live Holy as Christ as our example ... He (Jesus) did everything that the religious leaders of his day didn't want him to do. Christ's actions were not "Godly" in their eyes and went against their tradition of how to serve God. But Jesus didn't get caught up in the rules of religious tradition that they passed as law to hold onto their own status. They (religious leaders) liked the control it had over people, they liked always being right and looking down on others with "less" understanding then they had ... and when God himself was standing before them .. they killed him for not fitting into their idea of who God was. When I drink, I have no issue with people seeing Jesus drink. I think he did anyway and when he ate with sinners and "unclean" people when he walked the earth, people like you scoffed at him then too.

Play The Man
10-04-2009, 08:25 PM
The Book of Job says God already knows the very moment we are going to die and that there is nothing you can do to increase your life. So biblically speaking drinking because you believe it will prolong your life is not scriptural at all. We are the "called out ones" if we act just as the world does then how can we call ourselves separate? Paul is very clear in regards to Christina liberty. We are to live righteous and holy lives so that God will be glorified. Be holy even as your father in heaven is Holy. We are called living epistles and people read us to help them come to grace. How you live directly reflects Jesus. When you drink Jesus is drinking in the minds of those who watch you. Not sure how any of us can even desire to justify our actions with Christina liberty. Just because it is okay does not make it right as Paul said. This is one of those issues that have cause rifts in the body for years. So i doubt any of us will change years of disagreement that is for sure. :)

God knows when I will die, but I do not. I will use the gifts that are available to me to try to live a long, healthy life.

You are begging the question. As I tried to point out in an earlier post, Jesus did drink. I am not defending drunkenness, I am defending moderate, responsible consumption of alcohol. Jesus drank, but was not a drunkard. The Pharisees accused him of being a drunkard because he was drinking alcohol with sinners.

As for causing people to stumble, please research the prevalence of alcoholism in different religious denominations. While those denominations that prohibit alcohol, have low rates of alcohol consumption, when those members do drink, they exhibit high rates of alcoholism. The finding is robust - it has been described in a number of studies across the past 50 years. Mormons, Methodists, and Pentecostals that drink are much more likely to exhibit pathological behavior such as drunkenness, black outs, etc. I would argue that the stance of those denominations is causing many of its members to stumble.

Play The Man
10-04-2009, 08:32 PM
i didn't compare alcohol and abortions.... i used the same logic you justified alcohol with to justify abortions..... that same coomparison can be used with doctors recommending both said actions


also know i particularly enjoy "arguing" with you, as i don't think you get personally offended and you are good at civilly and very competently making your point

Yes, except one example would be using a good argument and the other would be using sophistry.

Mark
10-04-2009, 08:43 PM
In that section of John Mark we know 100% because from time of dipping to the host mouth there is not way on earth it could have fermented. A science buff can better explain the fermenting process but I know it takes more then minutes.

Ye of little faith. My god could ferment it in a twinkling of an eye! I think you were trying to say no way on earth it could have been fermented
That is truly funny. Ye of little faith.

Mark
10-04-2009, 09:05 PM
there is nothing you can do to increase your life

Ye of little faith, you could pray. Do you ever read the OT?

2 KINGS 20 1-6
"In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the Lord, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’" 2Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3"Remember now, O Lord, I beseech Thee, how I have walked before Thee in truth and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in Thy sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4And it came about before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5"Return and say to Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of your father David, "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6"And I will add fifteen years to your life, and I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake and for My servant David’s sake,"’"

NateR
10-04-2009, 09:10 PM
God knows when I will die, but I do not. I will use the gifts that are available to me to try to live a long, healthy life.

You are begging the question. As I tried to point out in an earlier post, Jesus did drink. I am not defending drunkenness, I am defending moderate, responsible consumption of alcohol. Jesus drank, but was not a drunkard. The Pharisees accused him of being a drunkard because he was drinking alcohol with sinners.

As for causing people to stumble, please research the prevalence of alcoholism in different religious denominations. While those denominations that prohibit alcohol, have low rates of alcohol consumption, when those members do drink, they exhibit high rates of alcoholism. The finding is robust - it has been described in a number of studies across the past 50 years. Mormons, Methodists, and Pentecostals that drink are much more likely to exhibit pathological behavior such as drunkenness, black outs, etc. I would argue that the stance of those denominations is causing many of its members to stumble.

Well, according to Chris F, Paul was being unscriptural when he recommended that Timothy drink wine for his health:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Jonlion
10-04-2009, 10:19 PM
Ok, I'm not big on debating in the Christianity section because I am really not good at it. I'm just going to post a few thoughts that your post brings to my mind. It seems to me that you are saying that even though I was saved August of 1997 (sorry, don't have the exact date) I may go to hell anyway because I have an occasional glass of wine or two. That does not fit with what I know of my God. I know I will be judged but um, if drinking is not a sin and I drink and I cause no other person harm when I do drink then how is it I will go to hell for it? I live my life every day doing my very best. Somehow I think God knows that and accepts my best as just that.

My little brother quit going to church because he was told by the "righteous" that no matter what he did he was going to hell. So he decided there was no point to it all. Why try to be good and be saved when you're going to hell anyway for tiny little mistakes? It makes me so very sad that even after all these years he still feels that way because of what some humans told him.


~Amy

I weep for things such as this, as i feel many people i know in England have been turned away from Christ and the church because of false teaching such as this.

Remember Jesus hung out with drunkards and he rebuked those Pharisee's and Saducee's who were self righteous and filled with pride.


Chris, this analogy of a trade off between alcohol and hell is a ridicalous notion. The warning is of drunkeness, not alcohol in itself.

I have been and still struggle with being a drunkard but i am trying real hard in my pursuit of the lord. And i'll keep marching on with that.

Just be careful brother with what you are saying because i fear you are on a much more dangerous slope than someone who might drink wine with dinner.

Praying for you brother and I'll try to return to this thread with some scripture tomorrow to back up what i am saying but at the moment its llate and im tired.

God Bless

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:26 AM
Ye of little faith, you could pray. Do you ever read the OT?

2 KINGS 20 1-6
"In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the Lord, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’" 2Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3"Remember now, O Lord, I beseech Thee, how I have walked before Thee in truth and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in Thy sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4And it came about before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5"Return and say to Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of your father David, "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6"And I will add fifteen years to your life, and I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake and for My servant David’s sake,"’"

Good point but it was God who increased his life, not the mans exceptional living. Nevertheless a good point. However since God is omniscient I am sure he knew he'd pray and thus knew the day he'd die anyhow so Job's verse is still in point.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:27 AM
Well, according to Chris F, Paul was being unscriptural when he recommended that Timothy drink wine for his health:

1 Timothy 5:23

I already addressed thin in an earlier post. We have modern ,medicine so we do not need to do this now. Context context context!!!!

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:29 AM
Chris, I have seen you cause men to stumble on here just with your words. I hope that Hell won't be a trade off for your temporary entertainment.

Is your being on this forum not being of the world, in it, living like the world or whatever else that wording is you are throwing around?

Men were turned away by Jesus' stern words as well. So I feel very safe in my choices.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:32 AM
Ok, I'm not big on debating in the Christianity section because I am really not good at it. I'm just going to post a few thoughts that your post brings to my mind. It seems to me that you are saying that even though I was saved August of 1997 (sorry, don't have the exact date) I may go to hell anyway because I have an occasional glass of wine or two. That does not fit with what I know of my God. I know I will be judged but um, if drinking is not a sin and I drink and I cause no other person harm when I do drink then how is it I will go to hell for it? I live my life every day doing my very best. Somehow I think God knows that and accepts my best as just that.

My little brother quit going to church because he was told by the "righteous" that no matter what he did he was going to hell. So he decided there was no point to it all. Why try to be good and be saved when you're going to hell anyway for tiny little mistakes? It makes me so very sad that even after all these years he still feels that way because of what some humans told him.


~Amy

I said nothing of the sort. I was simply challenging you to consider your ways as many of the OT and NT prophets. God alone can judge your eternal soul. If you feel 100% positive that it is okay to act like the world by being a social drinker then that is your conviction. But I am saying it just does not seem to line up with the bible says be ye holy even as your father in heaven is holy. That is what I said. I cannot nor would I ever make judgement on anyhting but ones fruits.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:39 AM
Isn't that a contradiction? If you're saying it's not a sin... how could an eternity in Hell even be a factor in this conversation??

Simple chuck. The Bible demands holiness and we are called to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. Drinking is not the sin, the sin lies in refusing to subject ones-self to lordship of Jesus and becoming holy and righteous. If the people around you cannot tell you apart from some one else in the world or how you once were then chances are your conversion may not be secure. Peter says to make every effort to make your calling sure. I think this would count in that case. That is why I challenged people to consider what they are doing and look in the mirror as Jeremiah said.


2 Peter 1:9-15 (King James Version)

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Mark
10-05-2009, 01:41 AM
Good point but it was God who increased his life, not the mans exceptional living. Nevertheless a good point. However since God is omniscient I am sure he knew he'd pray and thus knew the day he'd die anyhow so Job's verse is still in point.

You are wrong again. God knows everything he knows that you would take medicine you your cancer. For once just say that you are wrong, Its not that hard.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:43 AM
God knows when I will die, but I do not. I will use the gifts that are available to me to try to live a long, healthy life.

You are begging the question. As I tried to point out in an earlier post, Jesus did drink. I am not defending drunkenness, I am defending moderate, responsible consumption of alcohol. Jesus drank, but was not a drunkard. The Pharisees accused him of being a drunkard because he was drinking alcohol with sinners.

As for causing people to stumble, please research the prevalence of alcoholism in different religious denominations. While those denominations that prohibit alcohol, have low rates of alcohol consumption, when those members do drink, they exhibit high rates of alcoholism. The finding is robust - it has been described in a number of studies across the past 50 years. Mormons, Methodists, and Pentecostals that drink are much more likely to exhibit pathological behavior such as drunkenness, black outs, etc. I would argue that the stance of those denominations is causing many of its members to stumble.

If that is your conviction I hope you are right. It just does not line up with scripture. How can you think you are holy and blameless when you have perfectly clean drinking water and fridges so you do not need to drink fermented grape juice. I hope you are right for your sake.

NateR
10-05-2009, 01:46 AM
For me, no. I have a High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol value that is worse than 95%+ percent of the population. The condition puts me at higher risk for heart disease, the most common cause of death in the U.S. In addition to exercising and taking medication, I drink 1-2 drinks of alcohol per day because it has been medically proven to increase HDL cholesterol. This was discussed in detail with my physician. I have not been drunk in 15 years. Alcohol will likely help prolong my life. I agree that alcohol can be incredibly damaging - cirrhosis, DUI accidents, alcoholism, fights, etc.; however, it is not wrong in all situations to all people. I wish people would recognize the concepts of Christian liberty, prudence and moderation.

Just on a side note, I've been meaning to ask this, what kind of alcohol do you drink? I grew up in a family with a history of heart disease, so I know about the benefits of wine for your heart. I've been thinking about drinking a small glass of wine per day for health benefits, but really just have no idea what to buy.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:47 AM
You are wrong again. God knows everything he knows that you would take medicine you your cancer. For once just say that you are wrong, Its not that hard.

It is not about me it is the book of Job and I do not believe it is in error. God knows when you will die and living a good life only improves the quality of life and not the quantity. Show me book chapter and verse that says man can add to their life. Matthew says for example worrying will not add one minute to your life so why do it. I think you are just wanting to justify your interpretation with a proof text and are ignoring the entirety of scripture. I will be happy to admit I am wrong when I am shown a book chapter and verse.

Mark
10-05-2009, 01:49 AM
I hope you are right for your sake.

What are you saying chris??? Are you saying that he wont be in heaven?

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:51 AM
Job 14: 5 Since his days are determined,
The (A)number of his months is with You;
And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass.

By the logic you express, you are somehow special and this verse does not apply to you and you can change the limits. So unless you have a book chapter and verse I think maybe you should admit you are wrong.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 01:55 AM
What are you saying chris??? Are you saying that he wont be in heaven?

I can't say that. I am not God. I am simply saying I hope his conviction are good enough to get him in becaus ei know what scripture says and that is not it. Be ye holy even as your father in heaven is holy.

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy 1 peter 1:16

Chris F
10-05-2009, 02:00 AM
Here is a link someone sent me from another denomination. I htink it makes some of the same points that are being discussed here. Take a look.

http://www.thebaptist.org/alcohol.htm

Mark
10-05-2009, 02:09 AM
Job 14: 5 Since his days are determined,
The (A)number of his months is with You;
And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass.

By the logic you express, you are somehow special and this verse does not apply to you and you can change the limits. So unless you have a book chapter and verse I think maybe you should admit you are wrong.

So you are saying praying will not increase your life.

Play The Man
10-05-2009, 02:19 AM
Just on a side note, I've been meaning to ask this, what kind of alcohol do you drink? I grew up in a family with a history of heart disease, so I know about the benefits of wine for your heart. I've been thinking about drinking a small glass of wine per day for health benefits, but really just have no idea what to buy.

For heart disease, red wine probably has the most evidence behind it. Any form of alcohol will raise your HDL (beer, wine, hard liquor). Grape juice and wine have anti-oxidants (e.g. Resveratrol, flavonoids) that have various cardioprotective effects. Up to 2 glasses a day should be safe for most people, but beyond that, the risks begin to outweigh the benefits. I am a cheapskate so I usually get the cheap, "rotgut" red wine in a box at my local grocery store - I think it is Franzia - about $15-$20 for a 5 liter box. I am not a sommelier, so drinking inferior wine for the health benefits doesn't bother me. Otherwise, even if you drank modestly-priced wine ($20 a bottle), it would add up to a good chunk of change over a year.

TexasRN
10-05-2009, 02:22 AM
Nate, you may have to try different kinds of reds because some are very full bodied and dry. You can ask at the liquor store to find which ones are sweeter and you can get some that are fairly inexpensive.


~Amy

Chris F
10-05-2009, 02:22 AM
So you are saying praying will not increase your life.

I am saying the day you kick the bucket will not change no matter what you do here on Earth. I can pray till I am purple in the face it will not change the date on my death if God does not want it to. Prayer and drinking are hardly comparable. What are focus should be on is the quality of life so we can bet a better witness for Him. Why would one want to be saved if we are sickly and defeated? So thus the reason a good diet and fitness plan may certainly improve your quality of life. But how many athletes just kill over? Yet 80 years smokers live to be in their 100's? What about the innocent child who dies in a car wreck yet the drunk driver walk away unharmed? What about those who survive suicide? God alone holds all our lives in His hands.

Mark
10-05-2009, 02:32 AM
I am saying the day you kick the bucket will not change no matter what you do here on Earth.

Im going to go shoot myself and see if you are right....... If I never post again then please ban Chris F for stupitity.......................................

NateR
10-05-2009, 02:34 AM
For heart disease, red wine probably has the most evidence behind it. Any form of alcohol will raise your HDL (beer, wine, hard liquor). Grape juice and wine have anti-oxidants (e.g. Resveratrol, flavonoids) that have various cardioprotective effects. Up to 2 glasses a day should be safe for most people, but beyond that, the risks begin to outweigh the benefits. I am a cheapskate so I usually get the cheap, "rotgut" red wine in a box at my local grocery store - I think it is Franzia - about $15-$20 for a 5 liter box. I am not a sommelier, so drinking inferior wine for the health benefits doesn't bother me. Otherwise, even if you drank modestly-priced wine ($20 a bottle), it would add up to a good chunk of change over a year.

Awesome! Thanks for the info.:cool:

Nate, you may have to try different kinds of reds because some are very full bodied and dry. You can ask at the liquor store to find which ones are sweeter and you can get some that are fairly inexpensive.


~Amy

Well, I'll probably only buy my alcohol at Wal-Mart because I was always taught that it's a sin to go to liquor stores. :wink:

Mark
10-05-2009, 02:35 AM
Why did you get treatment for your cancer?????????????????

TexasRN
10-05-2009, 02:38 AM
Awesome! Thanks for the info.:cool:



Well, I'll probably only buy my alcohol at Wal-Mart because I was always taught that it's a sin to go to liquor stores. :wink:


:laugh::laugh:

Walmart has decent wine. :laugh: I like perusing the labels there. If they are really funny I will buy it to add to my funny label collection. My favorite label so far is Fat Bastard.

~Amy

Boomer
10-05-2009, 02:38 AM
Im going to go shoot myself and see if you are right....... If I never post again then please ban Chris F for stupitity.......................................

Not even funny brotha. I'd be crushed.

Play The Man
10-05-2009, 02:41 AM
Awesome! Thanks for the info.:cool:



Well, I'll probably only buy my alcohol at Wal-Mart because I was always taught that it's a sin to go to liquor stores. :wink:

By the way, the definition of a "glass" of wine in most of the studies is 4 oz. (120 ml.). I wouldn't want anyone to fill up a Ball-Mason jar to the brim and think they they are drinking "one glass" of wine.

Mark
10-05-2009, 02:52 AM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/chrisf.jpg
If you see this man on the street, he's the one that said that I could shoot myself. Very dangerous get away from him, do not talk to him.
The late Mark Hughes

Mac
10-05-2009, 02:59 AM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/chrisf.jpg
If you see this man on the street, he's the one that said that I could shoot myself. Very dangerous get away from him, do not talk to him.
The late Mark Hughes


Im gonna talk to him ,heck im gonna get his autograph!!!!! I thought he was awsome as pvt Pyle in full metal jacket.

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:00 AM
Not even funny brotha. I'd be crushed.


that is where you are wrong friend.... i about spit my non alcoholic but very caffeinated coffee on my keyboard :laugh::laugh::laugh:

TexasRN
10-05-2009, 03:06 AM
that is where you are wrong friend.... i about spit my non alcoholic but very caffeinated coffee on my keyboard :laugh::laugh::laugh:


Spitting is a sin. Good thing you didn't actually do it.


~Amy

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:09 AM
By the way, the definition of a "glass" of wine in most of the studies is 4 oz. (120 ml.). I wouldn't want anyone to fill up a Ball-Mason jar to the brim and think they they are drinking "one glass" of wine.

so nate's cup is too big???? (i should probably rephrase that so boomer and mac don't twist it into something dirty)

37

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:10 AM
Spitting is a sin. Good thing you didn't actually do it.


~Amy



what if i just spit a little tiny loogie????

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:16 AM
Why did you get treatment for your cancer?????????????????

Good to see you lived after the gun shot. :) One day I think you will have the ah ha moment and realize maybe you should have banned yourself for stupidity. I have scripture you have insults and conjuncture. I am sure that is a losing battle in any court. I got treatment for quality of life. I could not breathe and was very sickly. I was prepared to die if that is what God planned.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:20 AM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/chrisf.jpg
If you see this man on the street, he's the one that said that I could shoot myself. Very dangerous get away from him, do not talk to him.
The late Mark Hughes

That is not a current picture. And I think you are committing the very same rude brash behavior you always ridicule me for. So why is your hypocrisy okay? Do the rule change when your brother is the star and thus you are administrator? Book chapter and verse or fess up you are wrong. I visited a teen age boy in the hospital who attempted suicide. He blew the entire front of his face off yet still lived. I do not find your childish post the least bit funny

Mark
10-05-2009, 03:22 AM
I am saying the day you kick the bucket will not change no matter what you do here on Earth.

I got treatment for quality of life. I could not breathe and was very sickly. I was prepared to die if that is what God planned.

You dont make sence. I think you are still sick.

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:27 AM
The Book of Job says God already knows the very moment we are going to die and that there is nothing you can do to increase your life. :)

It is not about me it is the book of Job and I do not believe it is in error. God knows when you will die and living a good life only improves the quality of life and not the quantity. Show me book chapter and verse that says man can add to their life. Matthew says for example worrying will not add one minute to your life so why do it. .

Job 14: 5 Since his days are determined,
The (A)number of his months is with You;
And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass.



I am saying the day you kick the bucket will not change no matter what you do here on Earth. I can pray till I am purple in the face it will not change the date on my death if God does not want it to. .



wow chris you are way way way out on a limb on this one.....

first you are taking job WAY WAY WAY out of context, which is especially hypocritical for you since you are always preaching context. I HATE it when people take old testament passages that are character specific and apply them to their own or other peoples lives. Maybe I'll start claiming the abrahamic covenant as my own....

and your sermon on the mount verse proved nothing except worry won't add time to your life.


just because God knows when you are going to die doesn't mean He decides when you die. And there is a large following of the belief that God knows the ends of every scenario and we pick which scenario by our decisions and actions and the scenario is constantly changing, so at any given time God knows when will die, but that might be different day to day.... I don't buy that belief particularly, but i do think that our actions dictate our death and God is aware of that day, not picking it

Do you believe in free will?

Mark
10-05-2009, 03:27 AM
That is not a current picture. And I think you are committing the very same rude brash behavior you always ridicule me for. So why is your hypocrisy okay? Do the rule change when your brother is the star and thus you are administrator? Book chapter and verse or fess up you are wrong.

All you have to do is get one of the mods to give me a infraction. You can do that.
I thought I just proved you were wrong.

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:29 AM
You dont make sence. I think you are still sick.


wow i am in just the right mood tonight for mark's dry one liners :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Mark
10-05-2009, 03:29 AM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/chrisf.jpg
If you see this man on the street, he's the one that said that I could shoot myself. Very dangerous get away from him, do not talk to him.
The late Mark Hughes

Did I pick a bad picture?

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:30 AM
chris,,,,, i would like to see some good scripture to prove your point though..... seriously......

I will look at it with an open mind..... just keep it in context to the gentiles and in the new testament.....

and i hate reading so just post the passage and not so much commentary for me to ignore.

Play The Man
10-05-2009, 03:32 AM
so nate's cup is too big???? (i should probably rephrase that so boomer and mac don't twist it into something dirty)

37

No, NateR specified that he was going to drink one small glass. It was for the benefit of others reading the post.

NateR
10-05-2009, 03:32 AM
You dont make sence. I think you are still sick.

It does seem a bit hypocritical that a man who used modern medicine to survive cancer would condemn someone for drinking wine for health benefits. But I guess legalism is a funny sin like that.

It's also funny how verses specifically referring to drunkenness would be twisted by modern Pharisees to forbid even one drink of alcohol.

So, if drinking a glass of wine causes someone to lose their salvation, then exactly when does that loss occur? Is it when they touch the glass? Maybe when they put it to their lips? Do they have to actually swallow the wine to become un-saved? Is taking one sip, swishing it around and spitting it out acceptable? Since Chris believes that he could risk his eternal soul over a glass of wine, then wouldn't we all need to know EXACTLY when our salvation is lost?

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:34 AM
wow chris you are way way way out on a limb on this one.....

first you are taking job WAY WAY WAY out of context, which is especially hypocritical for you since you are always preaching context. I HATE it when people take old testament passages that are character specific and apply them to their own or other peoples lives. Maybe I'll start claiming the abrahamic covenant as my own....

and your sermon on the mount verse proved nothing except worry won't add time to your life.


just because God knows when you are going to die doesn't mean He decides when you die. And there is a large following of the belief that God knows the ends of every scenario and we pick which scenario by our decisions and actions and the scenario is constantly changing, so at any given time God knows when will die, but that might be different day to day.... I don't buy that belief particularly, but i do think that our actions dictate our death and God is aware of that day, not picking it

Do you believe in free will?

Sermon on the mount does nothing of the sort. There is no way you can construed that verse to make it say only worry. You are not even in the same zip code grammatically speaking.

Job was in complete context and the entire Bible was written for us in our time as well. It would be extremely ignorant to ignore the OT because it does not fit your personal theology. What I have said here is taught by many many great theologians. Spurgeon, Edwards, Both Wesleys, Calvin, Luther, modern scholars like John Macarthur was the first I heard preach it and I doubted it just as you did till I looked at all the context and the entirety of scripture and frankly I found him to be spot on. So if all these men have said the same thing I seriously doubt w/o book chapter and verse in context I will ever believe them to be off base.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:35 AM
chris,,,,, i would like to see some good scripture to prove your point though..... seriously......

I will look at it with an open mind..... just keep it in context to the gentiles and in the new testament.....

and i hate reading so just post the passage and not so much commentary for me to ignore.

The verses are already in this thread.

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:36 AM
No, NateR specified that he was going to drink one small glass. It was for the benefit of others reading the post.




I was just kidding..... I didn't mean to butt-in ,,,, just joking around.... you earlier post just gave me that dumb mental picture....i just thought i would share...didn't mean to dumb down your serious post:ashamed:

Play The Man
10-05-2009, 03:39 AM
I was just kidding..... I didn't mean to butt-in ,,,, just joking around.... you earlier post just gave me that dumb mental picture....i just thought i would share...didn't mean to dumb down your serious post:ashamed:

I didn't see the little picture with the huge Starbucks mug until after I posted the response. :laugh:

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:41 AM
It does seem a bit hypocritical that a man who used modern medicine to survive cancer would condemn someone for drinking wine for health benefits. But I guess legalism is a funny sin like that.

It's also funny how verses specifically referring to drunkenness would be twisted by modern Pharisees to forbid even one drink of alcohol.

So, if drinking a glass of wine causes someone to lose their salvation, then exactly when does that loss occur? Is it when they touch the glass? Maybe when they put it to their lips? Do they have to actually swallow the wine to become un-saved? Is taking one sip, swishing it around and spitting it out acceptable? Since Chris believes that he could risk his eternal soul over a glass of wine, then wouldn't we all need to know EXACTLY when our salvation is lost?

1. My Cancer was confirmed gone before the chemo. They went ahead with the chemo to shrink the tumor. I laugh at the fact you call me legalistic. I take that as a compliment. If you spoke well of me then I would worry I was doing the wrong thing. Funny thing is you all are the ones using scripture to justify a personal belief that scripture clearly says to abstain from for the Sake of Christ and His Lordship. Good luck wiht that.

2. I guess i need to spell it out for you Nate since you ignored my previous post. The drinking is not the sin. The sin comes when you refuse to crucify the flesh and become of the world instead of submitting to His Lordship. That happens as soon as you do what NateR want instead of what God wants.

Play The Man
10-05-2009, 03:44 AM
I know I don't have any authority on this forum but perhaps I can pretend I am Herb Dean and step in to stop some of the verbal "groin kicks". Maybe, we can all touch gloves and keep the arguments from getting personal?:fight:

adamt
10-05-2009, 03:46 AM
chris i was just starting to think that mark was really zinging you and maybe i should stick up for ya..... but with the haughty tude you throw around it makes that impossible.........

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:46 AM
Did I pick a bad picture?

No not at all it is just not current. Did you read the articles from the newspaper that came from?

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:50 AM
chris i was just starting to think that mark was really zinging you and maybe i should stick up for ya..... but with the haughty tude you throw around it makes that impossible.........

Not trying to be haughty. Just standing up for the truth. No attitude is intended towards anyone. I am just blunt and still learning how to season my comment in a more easier swallowing version. I apologize if you felt I was being haughty towards you. When you said the sermon the mount said only worry I felt I had to nip that error quickly.

NateR
10-05-2009, 03:50 AM
2. I guess i need to spell it out for you Nate since you ignored my previous post. The drinking is not the sin. The sin comes when you refuse to crucify the flesh and become of the world instead of submitting to His Lordship. That happens as soon as you do what NateR want instead of what God wants.

Well, I'm not interested in drinking wine for the pleasure of it and I'm definitely not interested in drunkenness. I'm interested in the proven health benefits of wine. Heart disease runs in my family and I'm not interested in having 2-3 heart attacks a week when I turn 50 (which is what happened to my dad). So, it's a "quality of life" issue. :wink:

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:52 AM
chris i was just starting to think that mark was really zinging you and maybe i should stick up for ya..... but with the haughty tude you throw around it makes that impossible.........

Also Mark's rude remarks about people killing themselves ticked me off because I have made to many visits and did to many funerals for victims of this (suicide) to find such rude remarks the least bit funny and I took my frustration out on your comment and for that I am sorry.

Mark
10-05-2009, 03:53 AM
No not at all it is just not current. Did you read the articles from the newspaper that came from?

No, but I have done some homework on you. I see some of the some problems on here and you have had them for several years. And I am not happy with that.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:53 AM
Well, I'm not interested in drinking wine for the pleasure of it and I'm definitely not interested in drunkenness. I'm interested in the proven health benefits of wine. Heart disease runs in my family and I'm not interested in having 2-3 heart attacks a week when I turn 50 (which is what happened to my dad). So, it's a "quality of life" issue. :wink:

If that is your conviction then good luck with that. God calls us to be Holy and if you truly feel a holy person would drink to help their heart then by all means go ahead.

NateR
10-05-2009, 03:53 AM
No not at all it is just not current. Did you read the articles from the newspaper that came from?

I read them and it was some pretty interesting stuff. You made some good points in the two columns that I read; but I thought that your message was hurt by the condescending tone of the writing.

Do you have a current picture? Do you not want to post it?

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:56 AM
No, but I have done some homework on you. I see some of the some problems on here and you have had them for several years. And I am not happy with that.

I am flattered you would waste so much time on a nobody like me. I can save you some time and give it to you straight from me all you got to do is ask. But I am sure if you did any real digging you will find I rub a lot of people the wrong way. Except doing it with more tact I would not change a thing.

Chuck
10-05-2009, 03:56 AM
Simple chuck.

1) The Bible demands holiness and we are called to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

2) Drinking is not the sin, the sin lies in refusing to subject ones-self to lordship of Jesus and becoming holy and righteous.

3) If the people around you cannot tell you apart from some one else in the world or how you once were then chances are your conversion may not be secure. Peter says to make every effort to make your calling sure. I think this would count in that case. That is why I challenged people to consider what they are doing and look in the mirror as Jeremiah said.


2 Peter 1:9-15 (King James Version)

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

1) I think to say the Bible demands holiness is a bit of a stretch but I'm not going to stake my claim on this issue. We're encouraged to be holy.. Be Holy for I am Holy.. but I don't know that it's something demanded of us. I'm not sure what gospel you were saved into Chris but I don't need to be holy to ensure my salvation. I don't need to be holy to attain eternal life. Salvation is a gift, through God's grace alone. My level of holiness is irrelevant to my salvation.

2) How is doing something that is NOT a sin refusing to subject ones-self to lordship of Jesus and becoming holy and righteous. Chapter and verse please.

3) I love that you posted this because it brings up a very relevant point. Can the people around you Chris including those on this forum tell you apart from the world?? What is the difference between who you once were and who you are now? By your own admission (not my accusation) you are often perceived as rude, arrogant and prideful. Is that holy? Righteous? When we become Christians it's supposed to start a transformation within us. We're supposed to allow the Holy Spirit to begin a changing work in our hearts, our attitudes and our behavior. We're not supposed to take our personality and fit it into Christ we're supposed to let Christ strip us down to nothing and rebuild us in His image. So many times on here you identify with one characteristic of Christ (He offended people) but chose to ignore the rest. It appears to me that you use the Bible and Christianity as an excuse to continue being rude, arrogant and prideful. What about the love? The grace? The compassion? The humility? God didn't give us His Word to condemn, accuse and change others.. it's for US.. It exists so that we can allow ourselves to change. Where is the Christ in YOU brother? Have you allowed the Holy Spirit to change you? To reform you? Has He broken you yet of your pride? Your arrogance?

Thank you for posting this verse!!
2 Peter 1:9-15 (King James Version)

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Have you forgotten that Christ want's you to be transformed from what you WERE to what He desires you to be? He makes the weak strong, the blind to see, the lame to walk. Not the rude to be even ruder or the proud to be more prideful.

My .02 worth :wink:

Play The Man
10-05-2009, 03:58 AM
Chris F, please post again quickly! Your post count is at 666!

Chris F
10-05-2009, 03:58 AM
I read them and it was some pretty interesting stuff. You made some good points in the two columns that I read; but I thought that your message was hurt by the condescending tone of the writing.

Do you have a current picture? Do you not want to post it?

Thanks for the remoarks. I admit my tone was overtly political and should have been more in love for that newspaper. I have got more positive remarks then negatives ones because I have said what everyone really wants to but does not.

I do not have a current picture on this computer. I will see if my wife does. You will need to PM with direction on how to post picture I am not computer savvy on that stuff.

NateR
10-05-2009, 04:00 AM
Chris F, please post again quickly! Your post count is at 666!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Well it's a good thing he didn't get struck by a meteorite before he had a chance to post again.

Mark
10-05-2009, 04:01 AM
I am flattered you would waste so much time on a nobody like me. I can save you some time and give it to you straight from me all you got to do is ask. But I am sure if you did any real digging you will find I rub a lot of people the wrong way. Except doing it with more tact I would not change a thing.

Then change

Mac
10-05-2009, 04:02 AM
You will need to PM with direction on how to post picture I am not computer savvy on that stuff.

The same way you posted your avatar picture.

NateR
10-05-2009, 04:03 AM
Thanks for the remoarks. I admit my tone was overtly political and should have been more in love for that newspaper. I have got more positive remarks then negatives ones because I have said what everyone really wants to but does not.

I do not have a current picture on this computer. I will see if my wife does. You will need to PM with direction on how to post picture I am not computer savvy on that stuff.

It's really easy to upload pictures now that we have the albums feature. So PM me whenever you find a recent photo.

Mark
10-05-2009, 04:05 AM
It's really easy to upload pictures now that we have the albums feature. So PM me whenever you find a recent photo.

How do I get a recent photo on the forum?

Mark
10-05-2009, 04:13 AM
cupcakes

NateR
10-05-2009, 04:20 AM
How do I get a recent photo on the forum?

1. Up near the top of the forums page, you will see a Community link. Click on that and you will see a drop-down menu, then click on Pictures & Albums. This will take you to the Albums page.

2. Click on Create New Album on the far right (directly under the Log Out link).

3. Enter a title and decide if you want it to be a Public or Private album (for the purposes of posting images on the forums, you probably want it to be Public). Click on Submit.

4. This should take you right to your created album. Click on the Upload Pictures link.

5. Click on the Choose File buttons and select up to three images from your computer (they need to be sized properly for the internet, no larger than 800X800 pixels and less than one megabyte (1 MB) in size). Click on Upload Pictures.

6. You will be taken to a page that allows you to set the album cover and write captions for the photos. You don't have to do anything here and can click on Save Changes to move on.

7. You will be taken to your album. To post a photo into a thread, click on the image you want. Scroll down and you will see the caption (if you wrote a caption), the image information, then there will be two boxes titled Picture URL and BB Code. Select the text in the BB Code box, press Ctrl+C to copy the ENTIRE line of code. Then use Ctrl+V to paste it into your post.

It should be as easy as that.:)

NateR
10-05-2009, 04:31 AM
cupcakes

Enchiladas! :w00t:




Wait... we are doing word association, right? :unsure-1: I really hope that's not my new nickname. :irked:

adamt
10-05-2009, 12:44 PM
1. Up near the top of the forums page, you will see a Community link. Click on that and you will see a drop-down menu, then click on Pictures & Albums. This will take you to the Albums page.

2. Click on Create New Album on the far right (directly under the Log Out link).

3. Enter a title and decide if you want it to be a Public or Private album (for the purposes of posting images on the forums, you probably want it to be Public). Click on Submit.

4. This should take you right to your created album. Click on the Upload Pictures link.

5. Click on the Choose File buttons and select up to three images from your computer (they need to be sized properly for the internet, no larger than 800X800 pixels and less than one megabyte (1 MB) in size). Click on Upload Pictures.

6. You will be taken to a page that allows you to set the album cover and write captions for the photos. You don't have to do anything here and can click on Save Changes to move on.

7. You will be taken to your album. To post a photo into a thread, click on the image you want. Scroll down and you will see the caption (if you wrote a caption), the image information, then there will be two boxes titled Picture URL and BB Code. Select the text in the BB Code box, press Ctrl+C to copy the ENTIRE line of code. Then use Ctrl+V to paste it into your post.

It should be as easy as that.:)


someone should sticky this or something somewhere we rednecks can find it next time we need to post pics :laugh:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
10-05-2009, 01:02 PM
After reading and thinking I think I will try to avoid posting more on this particular topic unless I think of something real good to say. For those that are interested in the Health benefits I think you can get the heart healthy stuff from Purple grape Juice without the Alcohol that comes with what we call wine. If I think about it I may research that more! I doubt I will change anybodies mind on this but I do hope Y'All give some serious thought on what I am trying to say. Also please everybody search your heart to make sure that you really do believe that the Bible gives you permission to drink and it ain't a case of you want to believe it. I hope this ain't coming out wrong cause its not meant as an insult to ANYBODY! Now I got to go to bed. Tonight was my first night on 3rd shift and my eyes are tired. I transferred from second to third in order to make a little more money!

adamt
10-05-2009, 01:08 PM
[QUOTE=Chris F;71673]Not trying to be haughty. Just standing up for the truth. [QUOTE]

you see that's the thing.... you believe you are the only one on here who knows the Truth..... and I'm not talking about there being several acceptable versions and interpretations of the Truth... I'm talking about self righteous attitude. There are times we are all saying the same thing and you still have to "stand up" to something, even if there is nothing to stand up too or it is a pointless moot point to argue about.

Why don't we argue about something else pointless like when the sabbath is, or when the day starts.... didn't God say the evening and morning were the first day.... not the morning and evening were the first day....It's a moot point....

I was throwing out some questions earlier to boomer and ptm and stuff but is it worth actually arguing over....... cough syrup has alcohol in it and the best i can tell.... nate and ptm are talking about alcohol as medicine... which i would equate with ibuprofen. Heck ibuprofen might be worse for ya.

I don't drink alcohol but i don't use many pills either. I rarely take medicine. Only when genuinely needed. I understand PTM is just medicating. I certainly don't want to be guilty of legalism and dogmatism. I know i didn't make myself clear but i'm in a hurry this morning... you guys can draw your own conclusions and think out what i said without me spelling it out.


well i could argue a little more but i won't, no point really. :laugh:

Chris F
10-05-2009, 11:47 PM
1) I think to say the Bible demands holiness is a bit of a stretch but I'm not going to stake my claim on this issue. We're encouraged to be holy.. Be Holy for I am Holy.. but I don't know that it's something demanded of us. I'm not sure what gospel you were saved into Chris but I don't need to be holy to ensure my salvation. I don't need to be holy to attain eternal life. Salvation is a gift, through God's grace alone. My level of holiness is irrelevant to my salvation. In the Greek it is written in what is called an imperative which means it is a command. You do not see this in the English version because our language is not inflected.

2) How is doing something that is NOT a sin refusing to subject ones-self to lordship of Jesus and becoming holy and righteous. Chapter and verse please.
I posted many verses already on this. Just go back through the thread. Romans 12:1-2 is probably the best exmaple of being transformed. If you act the same way you are not saved. Also read 1 John chapters 2-4 they are pretty clears as well.

3) I love that you posted this because it brings up a very relevant point. Can the people around you Chris including those on this forum tell you apart from the world?? What is the difference between who you once were and who you are now? By your own admission (not my accusation) you are often perceived as rude, arrogant and prideful. Is that holy? Righteous? When we become Christians it's supposed to start a transformation within us. We're supposed to allow the Holy Spirit to begin a changing work in our hearts, our attitudes and our behavior. We're not supposed to take our personality and fit it into Christ we're supposed to let Christ strip us down to nothing and rebuild us in His image. So many times on here you identify with one characteristic of Christ (He offended people) but chose to ignore the rest. It appears to me that you use the Bible and Christianity as an excuse to continue being rude, arrogant and prideful. What about the love? The grace? The compassion? The humility? God didn't give us His Word to condemn, accuse and change others.. it's for US.. It exists so that we can allow ourselves to change. Where is the Christ in YOU brother? Have you allowed the Holy Spirit to change you? To reform you? Has He broken you yet of your pride? Your arrogance?I am a lot different then I once was. as for people perceptions of me I cannot change how they feel about me or perceive me. They do not know me form Adam over the Internet. Just because I am overtly honest does not make me any less Holy. I have submitted all I am to Him Not just what I think he deserves. If you do anything for your own self that is real pride. I do nothing for myself except eat and sleep. Everything else I am is for Him and His glory. This is why I would not defile His name by drinking when it can cause one to stumble from the truth.

Thank you for posting this verse!!


Have you forgotten that Christ want's you to be transformed from what you WERE to what He desires you to be? He makes the weak strong, the blind to see, the lame to walk. Not the rude to be even ruder or the proud to be more prideful. Exactly This is why one would not need to makes excuses to consume alcohol. A person who is saved would loose all desire to do anything that might defame the name of Christ. And frankly pointing fingers at my personality is not a good argument seeing how the same was placed on Paul. Am I confident and well educated? Very much so, but I do not think I am any better then anyone else. I just think human nature hates the truth and you all are so angry because what I am saying is convicting you and you are trying to reflect blame to make yourselves feel warm and fuzzy.

My .02 worth :wink:

Answers in red.

Chris F
10-05-2009, 11:56 PM
[QUOTE=Chris F;71673]Not trying to be haughty. Just standing up for the truth. [QUOTE]

you see that's the thing.... you believe you are the only one on here who knows the Truth..... and I'm not talking about there being several acceptable versions and interpretations of the Truth... I'm talking about self righteous attitude. There are times we are all saying the same thing and you still have to "stand up" to something, even if there is nothing to stand up too or it is a pointless moot point to argue about.

Why don't we argue about something else pointless like when the sabbath is, or when the day starts.... didn't God say the evening and morning were the first day.... not the morning and evening were the first day....It's a moot point....

I was throwing out some questions earlier to boomer and ptm and stuff but is it worth actually arguing over....... cough syrup has alcohol in it and the best i can tell.... nate and ptm are talking about alcohol as medicine... which i would equate with ibuprofen. Heck ibuprofen might be worse for ya.

I don't drink alcohol but i don't use many pills either. I rarely take medicine. Only when genuinely needed. I understand PTM is just medicating. I certainly don't want to be guilty of legalism and dogmatism. I know i didn't make myself clear but i'm in a hurry this morning... you guys can draw your own conclusions and think out what i said without me spelling it out.


well i could argue a little more but i won't, no point really. :laugh:

There are some things I am not willing to argue over. Such as is tounges for today, laying on hands, the rapture weather it is pre trib, mid or post. Those are not heaven or hell issues. But when it comes to something that may affect ones eternal soul I will not be silent on that and will argue (for a lack of a better term) I think ibuprofen is just as bad as caffeine, and other stuff, but I doubt one will look at you in the check out line and think man that guy claims to be a christian and he is taking aspirin how dare him. But go to Wal Mart and go through the line with a box of wine and it will cause an issue. This was Pauls point period bottom line. Even though it is not wrong do not do it because it is not profitable. Meaning you won't win no one to Jesus that way. I do not think I am the only one on here with the truth. I think plenty know it but do not seem to want to follow it when it comes to their personal sacred cows. Jesus is a 24/7 thing and many seem to uses Jesus as cosmic get out of jail free card instead of as King of King and Lord of Lords.

NateR
10-06-2009, 03:36 AM
There are some things I am not willing to argue over. Such as is tounges for today,... Those are not heaven or hell issues.

So do you not hold to the AOG belief that the first sign of someone truly being saved is speaking in tongues?

Chris F
10-06-2009, 04:14 AM
So do you not hold to the AOG belief that the first sign of someone truly being saved is speaking in tongues?

The AOG does not nor ever has said speaking in tongues is a part of salvation. You are mixing up denominations. That would be Jesus plus something. It is Jesus Chrsit and Him crucified alone.

NateR
10-06-2009, 04:44 AM
The AOG does not nor ever has said speaking in tongues is a part of salvation. You are mixing up denominations. That would be Jesus plus something. It is Jesus Chrsit and Him crucified alone.

Well, the AOG website says that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Fundamental Truth #8):
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm

So, if someone has never spoken in tongues in their life would you say that they aren't saved?

VCURamFan
10-06-2009, 05:00 AM
Well, the AOG website says that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Fundamental Truth #8):
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm

So, if someone has never spoken in tongues in their life would you say that they aren't saved?
Nate, cut it out. Chris is the only one here who speaks Truth, so stop coming at him with these facts.:Whistle:

TENNESSEAN
10-06-2009, 01:41 PM
Bill Cosby once said presentation is everything. You can serve the best steak dinner on a trash can lid and the dinner is no better than a sack of trash.

Chris f no matter how good you think your msg is. It is overpowered by your smug and arrogate attitude.
You have serious presentation issues.

Maglorius
10-06-2009, 04:59 PM
Well, the AOG website says that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Fundamental Truth #8):
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm

So, if someone has never spoken in tongues in their life would you say that they aren't saved?

I've never spoken in tongues and I know I am saved:happydancing:

NateR
10-06-2009, 05:12 PM
I've never spoken in tongues and I know I am saved:happydancing:

Me neither and I have no doubt of my salvation. I'm just wondering, if the AOG church claims that it's evidence of salvation, then why does Chris not consider it a heaven or hell issue? Does he not agree with his own denomination is this belief?

Chris F
10-06-2009, 05:31 PM
Well, the AOG website says that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Fundamental Truth #8):
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm

So, if someone has never spoken in tongues in their life would you say that they aren't saved?

NateR I know you know how to read. It does not say anyhting about it being required for salvation. Show me exactly where in the link it says anyhting of the sort. You are foolishly mistaking Baptism of the Holy Spirit from the infilling of the Holy Spirit. They are different. You really should get the facts before you spout such foolishness. You will need ot cite exactly where it says it is required for salvation if you can't the right thing to do and the man thing to do is admit you were wrong and apologize. Because if you show me where it says it is required for salvation then I will apologize and I admit I am wrong.

Chris F
10-06-2009, 05:33 PM
Me neither and I have no doubt of my salvation. I'm just wondering, if the AOG church claims that it's evidence of salvation, then why does Chris not consider it a heaven or hell issue? Does he not agree with his own denomination is this belief?

Because the AOG does not claim that. You are reading into their beliefs your own interpretation in an effort to smear me. Funny thing about truth is you can't seem to shake it and it will always win out.

adamt
10-06-2009, 06:22 PM
NateR I know you know how to read. It does not say anyhting about it being required for salvation. Show me exactly where in the link it says anyhting of the sort. You are foolishly mistaking Baptism of the Holy Spirit from the infilling of the Holy Spirit. They are different. You really should get the facts before you spout such foolishness. You will need ot cite exactly where it says it is required for salvation if you can't the right thing to do and the man thing to do is admit you were wrong and apologize. Because if you show me where it says it is required for salvation then I will apologize and I admit I am wrong.

have you ever spoke in tongues?



truth 7 says....."WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]"

and truth 8. "The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit"


is this immediately following or is it relative to the person? Like the same second or could it be fifty years?

And i think it is you that have it backwards. At the moment of salvation you are baptised of the spirit by the Spirit.

Depending upon your own personal spiritual maturity you are filled with the Spirit. Depending upon your actions you are walking in the Spirit.

County Mike
10-06-2009, 06:38 PM
I spoke in tongues once.

But I was just kidding.

Chris F
10-06-2009, 06:44 PM
have you ever spoke in tongues?



truth 7 says....."WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]"

and truth 8. "The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit"


is this immediately following or is it relative to the person? Like the same second or could it be fifty years?

And i think it is you that have it backwards. At the moment of salvation you are baptised of the spirit by the Spirit.

Depending upon your own personal spiritual maturity you are filled with the Spirit. Depending upon your actions you are walking in the Spirit.


Yes I have.

Your other comment are very good. The key you pointed out by your quote that destroys NateR argument is that is clearly says FOLLOWING salvation. I do think and my opinion is the person willingness to accept it as a free gift for empowerment. Some it is the same day and time others it can be years. My wife grew up in Church of Christ and was told it was wrong. That stuck for years in her mind. Eventually she wanted it and got it some years later.

You other comment is not supported by scripture. Please cite book chapter and verse that says baptism of the holy spirit was at salvation. If that was the case then why would Jesus tell them to go and tarry in the upper room till he sends the Holy Spirit. Were they not saved until the upper room experience. Also John the Baptist splits the two up as well in his description of the work of Christ. SO unless you have a quote for me, I am pretty positive I do not have in backwards at all and that you are mistaken in your personal opinion.

NateR
10-06-2009, 07:40 PM
NateR I know you know how to read. It does not say anyhting about it being required for salvation. Show me exactly where in the link it says anyhting of the sort. You are foolishly mistaking Baptism of the Holy Spirit from the infilling of the Holy Spirit. They are different. You really should get the facts before you spout such foolishness. You will need ot cite exactly where it says it is required for salvation if you can't the right thing to do and the man thing to do is admit you were wrong and apologize. Because if you show me where it says it is required for salvation then I will apologize and I admit I am wrong.

Stop being so paranoid, I'm not attacking you, I'm just trying to understand your beliefs. Besides, I know you know how to read, so I would hope that you would understand the difference between the words "requirement" and "evidence". I never claimed you believed it was required for salvation.

If Baptism of the Holy Spirit follows salvation, and speaking in tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit; then why is it not logical to assume that speaking in tongues is evidence of salvation (according to the AOG)?

Obviously, from what you are saying, it is not considered evidence of salvation. Thank you for clarifying, however, it sure sounds like that based on the AOG website.

Besides I have known Pentecostals who will claim that if you don't speak in tongues, then your aren't truly saved.

adamt
10-06-2009, 07:49 PM
Yes I have.



You other comment is not supported by scripture. Please cite book chapter and verse that says baptism of the holy spirit was at salvation. If that was the case then why would Jesus tell them to go and tarry in the upper room till he sends the Holy Spirit. Were they not saved until the upper room experience. Also John the Baptist splits the two up as well in his description of the work of Christ. SO unless you have a quote for me, I am pretty positive I do not have in backwards at all and that you are mistaken in your personal opinion.



wow where's your hermenuetics now?

does jesus have to send the Spirit more than once? NO He sent the Spirit and He will be here til the rapture.


did you have an interpretor??

I Corinthians 14:27-28, "If anyone speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, each taking his turn; and let one person interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let the those persons keep silence in the church and speak to themselves and to God".

i cor 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

If every believer has been baptized in the Spirit, then it must happen at the moment you accept Christ and become a Christian.



do you believe baptism of the spirit is instantaneous or gradual?

KENTUCKYREDBONE
10-06-2009, 11:50 PM
I believe that some of the comments in this thread are getting a bit on the rude side! I ain't gonna call out names but Please EVERYBODY think and make sure you ain't being unChristlike!

County Mike
10-07-2009, 01:03 AM
I believe that some of the comments in this thread are getting a bit on the rude side! I ain't gonna call out names but Please EVERYBODY think and make sure you ain't being unChristlike!

Sorry.

Chris F
10-07-2009, 08:44 AM
Stop being so paranoid, I'm not attacking you, I'm just trying to understand your beliefs. Besides, I know you know how to read, so I would hope that you would understand the difference between the words "requirement" and "evidence". I never claimed you believed it was required for salvation.

If Baptism of the Holy Spirit follows salvation, and speaking in tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit; then why is it not logical to assume that speaking in tongues is evidence of salvation (according to the AOG)?

Obviously, from what you are saying, it is not considered evidence of salvation. Thank you for clarifying, however, it sure sounds like that based on the AOG website.

Besides I have known Pentecostals who will claim that if you don't speak in tongues, then your aren't truly saved.

That is not logical at all. It is all based on assumption. That sort of logic would never hold water in a court of law. You committed what is known as a Fallacy of accident. You apply a general rule to your premise but nonetheless the conclusion is still false. You may have a valid argument but it is by no means a true one.

I know some denominations that claim you must as well but that is a false doctrine and that really cheapens grace.

Chris F
10-07-2009, 08:57 AM
wow where's your hermenuetics now?

does jesus have to send the Spirit more than once?He sent it only once. I am not the one who even considered the fact baptism of the holy spirit is the same as the infilling that comes with salvation. You can try all you want to shift the burden, but you made the claim no you need to defend it. NO He sent the Spirit and He will be here til the rapture. I agree but even that is debatable to some denominations


did you have an interpretor??My case yes.

I Corinthians 14:27-28, "If anyone speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, each taking his turn; and let one person interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let the those persons keep silence in the church and speak to themselves and to God". The context of this verse is congregational worship, you are proof texting here.

i cor 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.This refers to the Holy Spirit as baptizer not the baptism of the holy spirit. You interpretation is not possible in the Greek grammar.

If every believer has been baptized in the Spirit, then it must happen at the moment you accept Christ and become a Christian.That is your interpretation and you are free to believe that way. Context context context.The Greek does not say what you are trying to say at all. It is simply saying the holy Spirit is the baptizer which means it is the agent by which we are saved. If the holy spirit is not at work you are not saved. The Baptism of the holy spirit is a separate event. Paul was saved at Damascus but baptized in the holy spirit when he was prayed for later.



do you believe baptism of the spirit is instantaneous or gradual?Not sure what you are asking here. Your questions requires an assumption that I accept your personal interpretation which I do not.
Answers in red

Chuck
10-07-2009, 12:49 PM
Bill Cosby once said presentation is everything. You can serve the best steak dinner on a trash can lid and the dinner is no better than a sack of trash.

Chris f no matter how good you think your msg is. It is overpowered by your smug and arrogate attitude.
You have serious presentation issues.

Well put.:wink:

Neezar
10-07-2009, 03:14 PM
I say we get back to drinking.


:laugh:

Llamafighter
10-07-2009, 03:28 PM
I say we get back to drinking.


:laugh:

Cheers!

Chris F
10-07-2009, 07:15 PM
Well put.:wink:

Well Chuck and T I can't argue with the results. It is not my fault some prefer to be caudled and have their egos stroked. I prefer to deliver the truth and the truth hurts and people are convicted and do not want to hear it. If I saw people not getting saved and coming to Chrsit as often as I do then i might reconsider my methodology. But when you are offering a cold drink of water to a thirsty soul they can really careless what kind of glass it is in.

NateR
10-07-2009, 07:35 PM
That is not logical at all. It is all based on assumption. That sort of logic would never hold water in a court of law. You committed what is known as a Fallacy of accident. You apply a general rule to your premise but nonetheless the conclusion is still false. You may have a valid argument but it is by no means a true one.

I know some denominations that claim you must as well but that is a false doctrine and that really cheapens grace.

Again, I am not trying to argue with you, I am just asking an honest question. I'm starting to suspect that you really do have a persecution complex. :rolleyes:

Anyways, thank you for the clarification. I am glad that you are not one of those people who believes that speaking in tongues is evidence or a requirement of salvation.:)

ianfer
10-07-2009, 07:50 PM
i just want to clarify-

chris f. "But when you are offering a cold drink of water to a thirsty soul they can really careless what kind of glass it is in."

what do you mean by this? it seems like you are saying 'as long as you say something that is true, no one really cares how you say it'

is this what you mean?

Chris F
10-07-2009, 08:28 PM
Again, I am not trying to argue with you, I am just asking an honest question. I'm starting to suspect that you really do have a persecution complex. :rolleyes:

Anyways, thank you for the clarification. I am glad that you are not one of those people who believes that speaking in tongues is evidence or a requirement of salvation.:)

Since you have a history of tearing me down on here it is hard to tell when you are asking a sincere question or trying ot corner me for an attack. You may try prefacing what you say so I have an idea next time. :)

Crisco
10-07-2009, 08:31 PM
Chris how does someone translate speaking in tongues?

By tongues do you mean different languages or that gibberish that people convulse and say?


I'm not a believer in that sense. I don't think the gibberish is biblical and I think those people are just so riled up and have been told time and time again about tongues and then whoops out they come.

When Christ gave the ability to speak in tongue it was used to spread the gospels to those who did not speak the language was it not? So where did the gibberish come from? Book, chapter and verse please anyone.

Chris F
10-07-2009, 08:31 PM
i just want to clarify-

chris f. "But when you are offering a cold drink of water to a thirsty soul they can really careless what kind of glass it is in."

what do you mean by this? it seems like you are saying 'as long as you say something that is true, no one really cares how you say it'

is this what you mean?

What I am saying is I don't believe the methodology is more important than the message. In today's Christianity with the whole purpose driven, willow creek hogwash out there people have became to focused on methods and have lost touch with the message of Jesus and Him crucified. If someone is really thirsty they will not care if it is in a paper cup or a plastic one they simply wnat the drink. A person who finally realizing they are going to hell without Jesus doesn't care if they are told it bluntly or with a spoon full of sugar.

Chris F
10-07-2009, 08:33 PM
Chris how does someone translate speaking in tongues?

By tongues do you mean different languages or that gibberish that people convulse and say?


I'm not a believer in that sense. I don't think the gibberish is biblical and I think those people are just so riled up and have been told time and time again about tongues and then whoops out they come.

When Christ gave the ability to speak in tongue it was used to spread the gospels to those who did not speak the language was it not? So where did the gibberish come from? Book, chapter and verse please anyone.

True glossolalia(speaking in tounges) is a known language that is not learned by the speaker. The gibberish you speak of is not real in my opinion and I believe it to be unbiblical as well. As for the translation or interpretation, the holy spirit also does this for usually another person who has never learned that language either so that all may be edified.

Crisco
10-07-2009, 08:36 PM
True glossolalia(speaking in tounges) is a known language that is not learned by the speaker. The gibberish you speak of is not real in my opinion and I believe it to be unbiblical as well.

Ahh so I was correct in thinking that glossolalia(I've never heard that before I'm going to study more) Is for instance someone who is scottish suddendly being able to speak mongolian as filled with the holy spirit?

ianfer
10-07-2009, 09:47 PM
I agree, Chris F! we should not sacrifice truth for the fear that someone might be offended, but that is not what i asked so ill phrase it again.

you comment "But when you are offering a cold drink of water to a thirsty soul they can really careless (could not care less) what kind of glass it is in.

do you mean that how you tell someone the truth does not matter? as long as it is the truth? (the type of glass being the method of delivering truth)

your first reply, i believe, can be summed up as //i dont believe that how you tell someone is more important than what you tell them about// the whole "glass of water thing" is not about which one is more important, but if people actually care about which cup is used or if wisdom dictates.

you yourself have said "I will admit my brash exterior may have cause some to stumble and for that I have had to repent many of times."

TENNESSEAN
10-07-2009, 11:50 PM
Do any of you Know what the first thing the aog preacher ask god when he got in heaven??

VCURamFan
10-07-2009, 11:58 PM
Do any of you Know what the first thing the aog preacher ask god when he got in heaven??
No, what?

TENNESSEAN
10-08-2009, 12:05 AM
Who let all these baptist in here:laugh:

TENNESSEAN
10-08-2009, 01:28 AM
Sorry, was that to tacky?

Chris F
10-08-2009, 02:07 AM
I agree, Chris F! we should not sacrifice truth for the fear that someone might be offended, but that is not what i asked so ill phrase it again.

you comment "But when you are offering a cold drink of water to a thirsty soul they can really careless (could not care less) what kind of glass it is in.

do you mean that how you tell someone the truth does not matter? as long as it is the truth? (the type of glass being the method of delivering truth)

your first reply, i believe, can be summed up as //i dont believe that how you tell someone is more important than what you tell them about// the whole "glass of water thing" is not about which one is more important, but if people actually care about which cup is used or if wisdom dictates.

you yourself have said "I will admit my brash exterior may have cause some to stumble and for that I have had to repent many of times."

We are commanded to speak the truth in love. Sadly my personal definition of love is not the same as others so there lies the difference of opinion. I see love as you care so much for the person you do not want anything bad to happen to them so you are in their face. However against my definition is that 1 Cor 13 say love is kind and to many I may not come off as kind. So the problem is not so much the delivery but one's interpretation of said delivery. I have toned it down a lot since I first stated ministry and I usually maintain decorum until attacked and then I spout which is also very wrong. Thus the reason for my confession of needing to repent many times. Hope that helps.

Chris F
10-08-2009, 02:12 AM
Sorry, was that to tacky?

My mentor was a SBC Baptist. My favorite preacher Adrian Rogers is a Baptist. So I think you may be stretching it on this one. I accept all who hold to the cardinal doctrines and baptist do hold to the cardinal doctrines, there only problem is they seem to have ripped out the bookof acts from their bible and do not want to accept the great gift of Holy Spirit baptism. But they are still very biblical in the foundational truths

TENNESSEAN
10-08-2009, 03:34 AM
I grew up in a church that was founded on the aog doctrine. Most of my family are still members there. My wife like yours grew up in the church of christ.
I have been following the posts but I'm not one to get in biblical discussions on the net.
This is a subject that brings out the deepest emotions in people. To be successful in a debate with such emotion you need to be looking a person in the face and chose your words wisely otherwise you turn people off and that is harder to overcome than gaining there trust in the first place.

Chuck
10-08-2009, 04:16 AM
We are commanded to speak the truth in love. Sadly my personal definition of love is not the same as others so there lies the difference of opinion. I see love as you care so much for the person you do not want anything bad to happen to them so you are in their face. However against my definition is that 1 Cor 13 say love is kind and to many I may not come off as kind. So the problem is not so much the delivery but one's interpretation of said delivery. I have toned it down a lot since I first stated ministry and I usually maintain decorum until attacked and then I spout which is also very wrong. Thus the reason for my confession of needing to repent many times. Hope that helps.

You know Chris for one brief moment I thought I was seeing a tiny glimmer of hope with you.. perhaps just a SPECK of humility....... but you just couldn't do it could you???

I honestly think you might be deceived to the point that you don't even see your own arrogance.

After everything you type up above including the Bible's definition of love which you clearly admit is different then your own.... it's still not your fault. It's still not you... it's not your pride, arrogance or rudeness. The problem is how the OTHER person interprets YOUR delivery????

I'm begging you brother... book, chapter and verse to justify THAT ridiculous statement. And lets not forget context, context, context....

I want to help you Chris, I really do... so I've found a video on YouTube that I think will help.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8TnhNxKNlU

Just remember.....

YOU ARE GEORGE!!!!!

Chris F
10-08-2009, 04:33 AM
I grew up in a church that was founded on the aog doctrine. Most of my family are still members there. My wife like yours grew up in the church of christ.
I have been following the posts but I'm not one to get in biblical discussions on the net.
This is a subject that brings out the deepest emotions in people. To be successful in a debate with such emotion you need to be looking a person in the face and chose your words wisely otherwise you turn people off and that is harder to overcome than gaining there trust in the first place.

This is very true. I prefer face to face because people can see I m not trying ot be bombastic I am just trying to help. Without body language you are only getting half the message.

Chris F
10-08-2009, 04:38 AM
:laugh:You know Chris for one brief moment I thought I was seeing a tiny glimmer of hope with you.. perhaps just a SPECK of humility....... but you just couldn't do it could you???

I honestly think you might be deceived to the point that you don't even see your own arrogance.

After everything you type up above including the Bible's definition of love which you clearly admit is different then your own.... it's still not your fault. It's still not you... it's not your pride, arrogance or rudeness. The problem is how the OTHER person interprets YOUR delivery????

I'm begging you brother... book, chapter and verse to justify THAT ridiculous statement. And lets not forget context, context, context....

I want to help you Chris, I really do... so I've found a video on YouTube that I think will help.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8TnhNxKNlU

Just remember.....

YOU ARE GEORGE!!!!!

:laugh: I have never been a huge Seinfeld fan. That was funny.

1. I am not deceived. I am positive of what I know is true.

2. Arrogance requires one to feel above everyone else. I do not nor would I ever feel that way. I know a lot about a few subjects but there are many here who are full of wisdom and nuggets of reality. That is what I like about pumbaa so much he was simple yet pointed. There is a huge difference between arrogance and confidence. I know what I know and am 100% sure i know I am right and will not budge. Stubborn yes arrogant never.

Chuck
10-08-2009, 04:47 AM
:laugh:

:laugh: I have never been a huge Seinfeld fan. That was funny.

1. I am not deceived. I am positive of what I know is true.

2. Arrogance requires one to feel above everyone else. I do not nor would I ever feel that way. I know a lot about a few subjects but there are many here who are full of wisdom and nuggets of reality. That is what I like about pumbaa so much he was simple yet pointed. There is a huge difference between arrogance and confidence. I know what I know and am 100% sure i know I am right and will not budge. Stubborn yes arrogant never.

I appreciate your response but I think you may have forgotten to address the point I was trying to make... so I'll post it again for your convenience....

After everything you type up above including the Bible's definition of love which you clearly admit is different then your own.... it's still not your fault. It's still not you... it's not your pride, arrogance or rudeness. The problem is how the OTHER person interprets YOUR delivery????

I'm begging you brother... book, chapter and verse to justify THAT ridiculous statement. And lets not forget context, context, context....


Am I reading your answer correctly in your previous post? Are you saying it's not your delivery... it how the person you're talking to interprets your delivery???

Chris F
10-08-2009, 03:56 PM
I appreciate your response but I think you may have forgotten to address the point I was trying to make... so I'll post it again for your convenience....



Am I reading your answer correctly in your previous post? Are you saying it's not your delivery... it how the person you're talking to interprets your delivery???

There is no book chapter and verse about Chris. I was not around back then. There is however many examples of different styles of delivery to different people. When I talk to people in person I get get a feel for where they are in their walk and how close they might be to accepting the truth. So I rarely if at all come off brash when it is one on one. No on the internet since so many people get bow'd up and defensive I tend to return that back. However even on here i speak to certain people much differently based on who they are and how they present themselves. So in a nutshell I am argumentative towards those who like to argue. If someone comes to me with a rationale civil discourse I will return it the same way. Paul said he become to the people what they were. SO when he was debating philosophers he used wisdom. When he debated religious folk he played the Pharisee card, when dealing wiht Greeks he played that card as well. What never changed was his message of Jesus and Him crucified. So on the internet I tend to be more brash because my experience is that most who get online to discuss these type of things rarely give the respect they demand from others. So if you want book chapter and verse for delivery style that vary based on audience then I suggest a reading of the entire second half of Acts.

Neezar
10-08-2009, 05:09 PM
Proverbs 16


1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

2 All a man's ways seem innocent to him,
but motives are weighed by the LORD.

3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do,
and your plans will succeed.

4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;
through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD,
he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

8 Better a little with righteousness
than much gain with injustice.

9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

10 The lips of a king speak as an oracle,
and his mouth should not betray justice.

11 Honest scales and balances are from the LORD;
all the weights in the bag are of his making.

12 Kings detest wrongdoing,
for a throne is established through righteousness.

13 Kings take pleasure in honest lips;
they value a man who speaks the truth.

14 A king's wrath is a messenger of death,
but a wise man will appease it.

15 When a king's face brightens, it means life;
his favor is like a rain cloud in spring.

16 How much better to get wisdom than gold,
to choose understanding rather than silver!

17 The highway of the upright avoids evil;
he who guards his way guards his life.

18 Pride goes before destruction,
a haughty spirit before a fall.

19 Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed
than to share plunder with the proud.

20 Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers,
and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD.

21 The wise in heart are called discerning,
and pleasant words promote instruction.

22 Understanding is a fountain of life to those who have it,
but folly brings punishment to fools.

23 A wise man's heart guides his mouth,
and his lips promote instruction.

24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb,
sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

25 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+16#) to death.

26 The laborer's appetite works for him;
his hunger drives him on.

27 A scoundrel plots evil,
and his speech is like a scorching fire.

28 A perverse man stirs up dissension,
and a gossip separates close friends.

29 A violent man entices his neighbor
and leads him down a path that is not good.

30 He who winks with his eye is plotting perversity;
he who purses his lips is bent on evil.

31 Gray hair is a crown of splendor;
it is attained by a righteous life.

32 Better a patient man than a warrior,
a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city.
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Neezar
10-08-2009, 05:17 PM
Jeremiah 9:23-24 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Jeremiah%209.23-24)
Thus says the Lord: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practice steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth; for in these things I delight, says the Lord."
What a battle we have on our hands. The enemy of pride comes at us on every front.

We love to be made much of because of how we use our minds—what good grades, smart solutions, clever one-liners, victory in a game of Scrabble.
Or how many degrees we have, or how much more we understand hermeneutics, or how many more people we have brought to Christ.

We love to be made much of because of our bodies—that we can work long and hard, or that we are muscular or shapely, or that we can run fast or lift a heavy weight or run far.
We love to be made much of because of our possessions—that we live in a certain neighborhood, or drive a certain car, or have a certain stereo, or hold a certain portfolio.
But Jeremiah says, Defeat the enemy of pride by making much of God. Glory in this, that you know God. Do you want to boast in intellect? Boast in God's. Do you want to glory in strength and beauty? Glory in God's. Do you want to brag on an estate? Brag on God's.

Chris F
10-08-2009, 05:40 PM
Proverbs 16


1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

2 All a man's ways seem innocent to him,
but motives are weighed by the LORD.

3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do,
and your plans will succeed.

4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;
through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD,
he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

8 Better a little with righteousness
than much gain with injustice.

9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

10 The lips of a king speak as an oracle,
and his mouth should not betray justice.

11 Honest scales and balances are from the LORD;
all the weights in the bag are of his making.

12 Kings detest wrongdoing,
for a throne is established through righteousness.

13 Kings take pleasure in honest lips;
they value a man who speaks the truth.

14 A king's wrath is a messenger of death,
but a wise man will appease it.

15 When a king's face brightens, it means life;
his favor is like a rain cloud in spring.

16 How much better to get wisdom than gold,
to choose understanding rather than silver!

17 The highway of the upright avoids evil;
he who guards his way guards his life.

18 Pride goes before destruction,
a haughty spirit before a fall.

19 Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed
than to share plunder with the proud.

20 Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers,
and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD.

21 The wise in heart are called discerning,
and pleasant words promote instruction.

22 Understanding is a fountain of life to those who have it,
but folly brings punishment to fools.

23 A wise man's heart guides his mouth,
and his lips promote instruction.

24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb,
sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

25 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+16#) to death.

26 The laborer's appetite works for him;
his hunger drives him on.

27 A scoundrel plots evil,
and his speech is like a scorching fire.

28 A perverse man stirs up dissension,
and a gossip separates close friends.

29 A violent man entices his neighbor
and leads him down a path that is not good.

30 He who winks with his eye is plotting perversity;
he who purses his lips is bent on evil.

31 Gray hair is a crown of splendor;
it is attained by a righteous life.

32 Better a patient man than a warrior,
a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city.
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Great verses. However your opinions of me does not make them valid. You do not know me. You are making observations based on post on the internet. You have no ideas as to my intentions. So again perceptions never validate truth. Only truth validates truth. This sort of argument is nothing more then an Ad hominem and thus is a fallacy. Plus much of what you posted on there the same can be said for NateR Mark, Dave and yourself. So careful taking the speck from my eye when you have a plank in your own.

Chris F
10-08-2009, 05:45 PM
Jeremiah 9:23-24 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Jeremiah%209.23-24)
Thus says the Lord: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practice steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth; for in these things I delight, says the Lord."
What a battle we have on our hands. The enemy of pride comes at us on every front.

We love to be made much of because of how we use our minds—what good grades, smart solutions, clever one-liners, victory in a game of Scrabble.
Or how many degrees we have, or how much more we understand hermeneutics, or how many more people we have brought to Christ.

We love to be made much of because of our bodies—that we can work long and hard, or that we are muscular or shapely, or that we can run fast or lift a heavy weight or run far.
We love to be made much of because of our possessions—that we live in a certain neighborhood, or drive a certain car, or have a certain stereo, or hold a certain portfolio.
But Jeremiah says, Defeat the enemy of pride by making much of God. Glory in this, that you know God. Do you want to boast in intellect? Boast in God's. Do you want to glory in strength and beauty? Glory in God's. Do you want to brag on an estate? Brag on God's.

However it also says in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

See how foolish proof texting can be. This is why you must understand hermeneutics or else you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth and none of it is true. You claim I am prideful and arrogant which is an opinion based on reading the internet. I claim no one on here knows me and if they did they would realize how stupid of a thought that is. Just because I refuse to be Gray and lukewarm you think I am somehow arrogant. Well the Book of Revelation is clear on what happens to those who are lukewarm.

Chris F
10-08-2009, 05:57 PM
Back to the original topic. !john 2 is clear we must not act as the world and if we do we cannot claim to be of Christ. So if the beer is that important to you then it is nothing more then an idol and the truth is not in you.

KJV 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

Chuck
10-08-2009, 08:35 PM
There is no book chapter and verse about Chris. I was not around back then. There is however many examples of different styles of delivery to different people. When I talk to people in person I get get a feel for where they are in their walk and how close they might be to accepting the truth. So I rarely if at all come off brash when it is one on one. No on the internet since so many people get bow'd up and defensive I tend to return that back. However even on here i speak to certain people much differently based on who they are and how they present themselves. So in a nutshell I am argumentative towards those who like to argue. If someone comes to me with a rationale civil discourse I will return it the same way. Paul said he become to the people what they were. SO when he was debating philosophers he used wisdom. When he debated religious folk he played the Pharisee card, when dealing wiht Greeks he played that card as well. What never changed was his message of Jesus and Him crucified. So on the internet I tend to be more brash because my experience is that most who get online to discuss these type of things rarely give the respect they demand from others. So if you want book chapter and verse for delivery style that vary based on audience then I suggest a reading of the entire second half of Acts.

You tend to be more brash on the internet because you're a coward who hides behind his keyboard. If you spoke to some of the people on here in person like you do through your computer you'd get your ass kicked. On here you're the Wizard from Wizard of Oz... hiding behind a curtain pulling levers and flipping switches to make yourself look bigger then you are. But I digress.......

You chose not to answer the question again... big surprise...

So when you offend people on here it's their fault not yours....

When people post scripture that clearly shows you are wrong... we're not practicing proper hermeneutics....

You're simply ridiculous Chris... truly. If you don't change your ways people will never see past the Chris in you to find the Christ in you.

Can you please show me where Paul played the stubborn, prideful, unrepentant jackass card??? I must have missed that one somewhere....

You should feel bad for even putting yourself in the same sentence as Paul.

You do play plenty of cards on here though Chris..

The I'm smarter then you card...
The I'm better then you card...
The it's not my fault card....
The hermeneutics card...
The prooftexting card...
The dodging questions asked of you card....
The if my delivery offends you it's your fault card... (a personal favorite)
The I just give whats given to me card (totally contradicts Scripture but hey who cares??)

Chris I am 100% convinced after reading your posts that no matter how many cards you play you're still not playing with a full deck.

Jonlion
10-08-2009, 09:50 PM
Back to the original topic. !john 2 is clear we must not act as the world and if we do we cannot claim to be of Christ. So if the beer is that important to you then it is nothing more then an idol and the truth is not in you.

This is where you have me confused. Whoever said that Beer was ok to be made an idol?

For me, I still maintain that it is a very hard case to prove abstinance of alcohol from the scripture. Drunkenness sure, if one beer leads to seven, then yeah.

But to enjoy a Beer after a long days work or a glass of wine with your dinner. If you can control that and enjoy it then I think that is perfectly fine.

County Mike
10-08-2009, 09:53 PM
But to enjoy a Beer after a long days work or a glass of wine with your dinner. If you can control that and enjoy it then I think that is perfectly fine.

Agreed. If enjoying a beer is a sin, then were does it stop? A piece of cake? A sugary cereal? Raisins on your oatmeal? I don't think you need to skip enjoyment to be a Christian. Even getting drunk isn't a problem to me unless you do harm while drunk. If you just get happy, act friendly and then go to sleep, where's the problem?

Jonlion
10-08-2009, 10:04 PM
Agreed. If enjoying a beer is a sin, then were does it stop? A piece of cake? A sugary cereal? Raisins on your oatmeal? I don't think you need to skip enjoyment to be a Christian. Even getting drunk isn't a problem to me unless you do harm while drunk. If you just get happy, act friendly and then go to sleep, where's the problem?


It is these set of don't's, don;'t drink, don't swear, don't listen to Boyz of Men :laugh:, its this sort of doctrine which turns away so many from the word of God

Chris F
10-08-2009, 11:10 PM
You tend to be more brash on the internet because you're a coward who hides behind his keyboard. If you spoke to some of the people on here in person like you do through your computer you'd get your ass kicked. On here you're the Wizard from Wizard of Oz... hiding behind a curtain pulling levers and flipping switches to make yourself look bigger then you are. But I digress.......If I was spoken to the way some on here have spoke to me I would indeed speak to them in the same way and if they were foolish enough to attempt to harm my persons then if I could not handle it w/ civility I am more then happy to make other arrangements. I do not need the internet to hide. My address is on the internet, if they do not like what they hear they can stop by and I would speak to them in the same way I am spoke to. You respect me I respect you plain and simple. I can really care less if one is a fighter or not, Assault charges are much more damaging then then aggressive posturing hey chuck. :wink: Besides if you are a trained fighter the crime is much worse because in most states hands are considered weapons.

You chose not to answer the question again... big surprise...I did answer your question. I can't help if you can't read. How did I not answer it.

So when you offend people on here it's their fault not yours....I cannot control a persons feelings. If one is offended it is because they choose to. For exmaple I choose to be offended by Mark's comments about suicide. I could have blew it off but I took offense which was my fault.

When people post scripture that clearly shows you are wrong... we're not practicing proper hermeneutics....No one has shown me wrong. They have simply provided proof text which are not in any way proper hermeuntics.

You're simply ridiculous Chris... truly. If you don't change your ways people will never see past the Chris in you to find the Christ in you.Maybe not on here because they hate to be convicted and will never see past their own problems because they will spend to much time worrying about me. I know I have sinful behaviors I have to work on, but I do not hide those. I repent of them daily. Sanctification is a process sir.

Can you please show me where Paul played the stubborn, prideful, unrepentant jackass card??? I must have missed that one somewhere....Ad Hominen foolishness need no response. When you can be civil I will respond

You should feel bad for even putting yourself in the same sentence as Paul.Not at all. I am sorry if the truth hurts your feelings. Go read Acts like I said and the prison epistles shed a lot on Paul as well

You do play plenty of cards on here though Chris..

The I'm smarter then you card...In some subjects, but I ma sure there is always someone who knows more
The I'm better then you card...That is a lie never said it
The it's not my fault card....I can't control peoples perceptions of me, that is their choice to make assumptions without the facts
The hermeneutics card...Every time. It is the only way to rightly divide the Word of Truth
The prooftexting card...If that is the only way one can express themselves I will call it what it is
The dodging questions asked of you card....Never dodge honest questions only asinine one that have no real answer
The if my delivery offends you it's your fault card... (a personal favorite)Again a persons opinion which I can;t control. People were offended by Jesus; delivery as well. I am in good compnay
The I just give whats given to me card (totally contradicts Scripture but hey who cares??)I know it does, but hey I am not perfect and God is still working on me. One day maybe I will learn some tact even when people are as flippant and disillusioned as you are.

Chris I am 100% convinced after reading your posts that no matter how many cards you play you're still not playing with a full deck. Nope I am a few cards short but at least I am in the game and not watching from the sidelines criticizing those who are playing.

Comments in red

Chris F
10-08-2009, 11:13 PM
This is where you have me confused. Whoever said that Beer was ok to be made an idol?

For me, I still maintain that it is a very hard case to prove abstinance of alcohol from the scripture. Drunkenness sure, if one beer leads to seven, then yeah.

But to enjoy a Beer after a long days work or a glass of wine with your dinner. If you can control that and enjoy it then I think that is perfectly fine.

That is between you are your god. The God of the bible prefers you to act holy and righteous. You would feel perfectly fine sit back in church sipping a cool one, while the pastor preaches?

Chris F
10-08-2009, 11:16 PM
It is these set of don't's, don;'t drink, don't swear, don't listen to Boyz of Men :laugh:, its this sort of doctrine which turns away so many from the word of God

It has to do with your level if commitment. If you are lukewarm in your walk (live in the gray) you will be spewed from God's mouth. If you are tepid with God you cannot think you are saved. Revelation is very clear.

Chuck
10-09-2009, 01:23 AM
at least I am in the game and not watching from the sidelines criticizing those who are playing.

Don't flatter yourself even more then you already do Chris. You're not playing the game you're ruining it!

Show us LESS of you and MORE of Him and then you'll be in the game. Until then you're just the angry arrogant kid on the sidelines.

Where is your grace Chris? Where is God's love? Mercy? Jesus didn't offend people Chris, go read your Bible again. His Truth offended people. His message offended people.

Chris YOU offend people. Do ya get it yet George? It's YOU. You're an intelligent guy with a heart for evangelism but few hear you because you're too worried about being right instead of being Righteous.

You're all Lion and no Lamb brother and I thinks its drawing more people away from Christ then to Him. How you are in real life means NOTHING on this board just like who you are on here means NOTHING in real life. You can be humble in real life and still act like an arrogant ass on here. God holds you accountable for the delivery just as much as the message.

There is a sinful way to deliver a Godly message. Just because it's the Truth doesn't mean you can share it in any way you want. There is a wrong way to deliver a right message.

When you offend people YOU need to take ownership of that... it's in your Bible. I'd quote it for you but you'd just accuse me of prooftexting so why bother?

You offend people with your delivery but somehow twist it into to conviction because you feel your message is the Truth.

You used the analogy of a glass of water earlier. You said if a person is thirsty enough they won't care about the glass. Your delivery is like water boarding Chris not a glass.

Here's a newsflash Chris... Jesus cared about the glass. You cling to the few times in the Bible people were offended by the teaching of Christ and completely ignore the multitude of examples where He taught with love, with compassion, with mercy. Why did He use parables? Why didn't He just blurt out the Truth and the "thristy" ones will drink and screw the rest??? Because He cares about the glass Chris. If Jesus didn't care about offending people why did He leave us with instructions on how to deal with offenses?

Mark
10-09-2009, 01:35 AM
You're all Lion and no Lamb brother and I thinks its drawing more people away from Christ then to Him. How you are in real life means NOTHING on this board just like who you are on here means NOTHING in real life.

He's right you should listen to him.

NateR
10-09-2009, 01:47 AM
They have simply provided proof text which are not in any way proper hermeuntics.

Exactly how do you define "proof texting"? Please be as specific as possible. Do you believe it is always a bad thing?

Chris F
10-09-2009, 02:20 AM
Don't flatter yourself even more then you already do Chris. You're not playing the game you're ruining it!

Show us LESS of you and MORE of Him and then you'll be in the game. Until then you're just the angry arrogant kid on the sidelines.

Where is your grace Chris? Where is God's love? Mercy? Jesus didn't offend people Chris, go read your Bible again. His Truth offended people. His message offended people.Go read John Chapter 6. His message turn off a lot of people.

Chris YOU offend people. Do ya get it yet George? It's YOU. You're an intelligent guy with a heart for evangelism but few hear you because you're too worried about being right instead of being Righteous.I am not worried so much about being right as I am about people knowing the truth

You're all Lion and no Lamb brother and I thinks its drawing more people away from Christ then to Him. How you are in real life means NOTHING on this board just like who you are on here means NOTHING in real life. You can be humble in real life and still act like an arrogant ass on here. God holds you accountable for the delivery just as much as the message.I have a different calling then you I guess. But I will not sugar coat truth

There is a sinful way to deliver a Godly message. Just because it's the Truth doesn't mean you can share it in any way you want. There is a wrong way to deliver a right message. So I guess if you were around when Paul and Jesus were preaching you'd probably say the same thing about them

When you offend people YOU need to take ownership of that... it's in your Bible. I'd quote it for you but you'd just accuse me of prooftexting so why bother?Again I cannot control who gets offended. Some prefer the openness others are repulsed by it. I talk to people in a way they seem to operate. If you are civil so will I be civil in response. People often communicate in a way they prefer, In other words they tend to understand better when they are spoke to in a way they communicate themselves. That is not bible that is what is called interpersonal communications. I am sure you have heard of it somewhere along the line.

You offend people with your delivery but somehow twist it into to conviction because you feel your message is the Truth.If it is not truth then prove it

You used the analogy of a glass of water earlier. You said if a person is thirsty enough they won't care about the glass. Your delivery is like water boarding Chris not a glass.Not sure how you draw that conclusion but suit yourself. I still hold to my earlier analogy and I know it to be true from many years of experience. Because in spite of what you may think I am no kid.

Here's a newsflash Chris... Jesus cared about the glass. You cling to the few times in the Bible people were offended by the teaching of Christ and completely ignore the multitude of examples where He taught with love, with compassion, with mercy. Why did He use parables? Why didn't He just blurt out the Truth and the "thristy" ones will drink and screw the rest??? Because He cares about the glass Chris. If Jesus didn't care about offending people why did He leave us with instructions on how to deal with offenses?He said why he spoke in parables. It Was to hide the truth from those not ready. It had noting to do with making the message more palliadable.


Comments in red

Chris F
10-09-2009, 02:24 AM
Exactly how do you define "proof texting"? Please be as specific as possible. Do you believe it is always a bad thing?

proof texting is taking a quote that says what you want it to but is taken clean out of context in by which one makes a point. This is why I tend to try and quote large sections or entire books.

Is it always a bad thing? I can not see when it would be good except for a bit of inspiration or encouragement. Kind of like devotions do.

Mark
10-09-2009, 02:24 AM
Chris how long have you been arguing with people online,newspapers or blogs? How long have they been saying these same things?

bradwright
10-09-2009, 02:36 AM
i wonder if i may interject for a moment ?
i would just like to say that although i have very little to add (actually nothing to add would be more accurate ) to the conversation that a few of you are having i do however find it to be quite entertaining and i would like to take this opportunity to thank you....okay my wife say's my popcorn is ready now so carry on then......thanks again.:)

NateR
10-09-2009, 02:37 AM
proof texting is taking a quote that says what you want it to but is taken clean out of context in by which one makes a point. This is why I tend to try and quote large sections or entire books.

Is it always a bad thing? I can not see when it would be good except for a bit of inspiration or encouragement. Kind of like devotions do.

So wouldn't it only be bad if the plain meaning of the verse was being misrepresented? For instance, if I quote Exodus 20:15, "You shall not steal," to use as an example of how the Bible says it is wrong to steal; then isn't that a proper use of proof text?

There are 484 Old Testament passages cited a total of 695 times in the New Testament. So, isn't the New Testament just a giant proof text of the Old Testament?

Chuck
10-09-2009, 02:42 AM
i wonder if i may interject for a moment ?
i would just like to say that although i have very little to add (actually nothing to add would be more accurate ) to the conversation that a few of you are having i do however find it to be quite entertaining and i would like to take this opportunity to thank you....okay my wife say's my popcorn is ready now so carry on then......thanks again.:)

Spoken like a true Canadian... on the sidelines... watching the world go by... :D

Mark
10-09-2009, 02:44 AM
:rotfl:i wonder if i may interject for a moment ?
i would just like to say that although i have very little to add (actually nothing to add would be more accurate ) to the conversation that a few of you are having i do however find it to be quite entertaining and i would like to take this opportunity to thank you....okay my wife say's my popcorn is ready now so carry on then......thanks again.:)

Chris F doesnt have many friends, you should try to be his friend you have alot in common. He doesnt have much to add either.:laugh:

Chris F
10-09-2009, 02:45 AM
Chris how long have you been arguing with people online,newspapers or blogs? How long have they been saying these same things?

Since about 2004 I suppose. When I started Grad school. They were real big in making you become critical and I guess it took a little to well. In Springfield I recived death threats because of some of the stuff in my letters to the editor and on the blogs. As for saying the same things, well, I have said the same things for years because the turth does not change :wink:.:laugh:

Mark
10-09-2009, 02:48 AM
Since about 2004 I suppose. When I started Grad school. They were real big in making you become critical and I guess it took a little to well. In Springfield I recived death threats because of some of the stuff in my letters to the editor and on the blogs. As for saying the same things, well, I have said the same things for years because the turth does not change :wink:.:laugh:

How long have they been saying the same things? Like how you say it not what you say?

Chris F
10-09-2009, 02:52 AM
So wouldn't it only be bad if the plain meaning of the verse was being misrepresented? For instance, if I quote Exodus 20:15, "You shall not steal," to use as an example of how the Bible says it is wrong to steal; then isn't that a proper use of proof text?

There are 484 Old Testament passages cited a total of 695 times in the New Testament. So, isn't the New Testament just a giant proof text of the Old Testament?

Not at all because as you have said the entirety of scripture backs up your statement. But if you cite a quotation as in the case in this thread, but yet that verse has been changed by New Testament teaching then it is a proof text. For example the judge not lest ye be judged or the one people like ot use about eating shell fish and be disobedient to your parents. If the New Testament teaches a more current theology then you can't simply hold to the OT verse as proof you doctrine is valid. There are many more examples but I am sure you got the point.

As for the NT being a proof text. The NT teachers used the OT as evidence to the messiah-ship of Christ. Most of the OT was just assumed in their teaching this is why Jesus never had to preach against homosexuality because it was already wrong. It was not until Paul started preaching to the gentile Greek that homosexuality had to be preached against.

Chris F
10-09-2009, 02:53 AM
:rotfl:

Chris F doesnt have many friends, you should try to be his friend you have alot in common. He doesnt have much to add either.:laugh:

I have many friends and more then enough to offer that you seem to be obseesed with me now. :)

bradwright
10-09-2009, 02:53 AM
Spoken like a true Canadian... on the sidelines... watching the world go by... :D

well in this recession i cant afford a ticket to the game...but even if i could Bonnie pointed out to me that i lack the proper intelligence for this sort of thing....and sadly..... i concur.:sad:

i better get going before Nate 86s me for interrupting this thread twice now...sorry Nate.:)

Chris F
10-09-2009, 02:56 AM
How long have they been saying the same things? Like how you say it not what you say?

Not sure what you are are setting up here. What do you mean how I say it is not what I mean? I need more to go on. People have misunderstood me for years if that is what you are saying. Because as you should have seen in your cyber stalking of me I do not ever hold to the majority view and what is popular.

Chuck
10-09-2009, 02:56 AM
well in this recession i cant afford a ticket to the game...but even if i could Bonnie pointed out to me that i lack the proper intelligence for this sort of thing....and sadly..... i concur.:sad:

i better get going before Nate 86s me for interrupting this thread twice now...sorry Nate.:)

Since when is intelligence needed to post in this forum???? :D

Mark
10-09-2009, 02:57 AM
I have many friends and more then enough to offer that you seem to be obseesed with me now. :)

I will have to say that my wife is not happy with our long talks at night.

Mark
10-09-2009, 02:57 AM
Since when is intelligence needed to post in this forum???? :D

Chuck is proof.

Chris F
10-09-2009, 02:59 AM
well in this recession i cant afford a ticket to the game...but even if i could Bonnie pointed out to me that i lack the proper intelligence for this sort of thing....and sadly..... i concur.:sad:

i better get going before Nate 86s me for interrupting this thread twice now...sorry Nate.:)

:laugh: Come on in the water is fine. Just jump in. If you have nothing good to say you will fit right in wiht the rest of them. :) Sorry could not resist a counter jab at Mark's earlier ad hominem drivel. I am glad I can entertain a Canadian again.

Chuck
10-09-2009, 03:00 AM
Chuck is proof.

:laugh::laugh: