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Spiritwalker
09-05-2009, 01:09 AM
Life for US soldier's Iraq crimes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8239206.stm


Should have been a firing squad... :angry:

Tyburn
09-11-2009, 12:19 AM
Life for US soldier's Iraq crimes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8239206.stm


Should have been a firing squad... :angry:

Hang Him :ninja:

ERStettin
09-12-2009, 12:05 PM
Looking death in the face 24/7 and dealing with the stress involved in doing so, causes alot of people to break down. Everyone reacts differently. It is a hard, hard life and unless you have lived it, you would never understand it.

I don't know the details and do not condone anything these soldiers did, I am just speaking from experience.

They would all have probably committed suicide if they had gotten away with it. It is a hard thing to recover from.

Making it out of a combat zone after becoming accustomed to it, does not make you a survivor. Suicide in the military is at an alltime high amongst our 'survivors'.

logrus
09-12-2009, 06:22 PM
"The court heard that Green was seen by army mental health professionals after he had talked about a desire to kill Iraqi civilians.

He was sent back to his unit with medication to help him sleep after a nurse concluded he would not act out his thoughts."

I don't know, you'd think something should be done with those people as well,

ERStettin
09-13-2009, 01:24 PM
Yep, I would be pretty confident the command is going to have some people relieved for this. Not just the soldiers command but the medical folks as well.

It is not only sad for the murdered and their familys/friends but also the familys of the soldiers. This does not appear to have been handled correctly. I have confindence that the signs shown by the soldiers leading up to this event were more than enough to act upon.

The bad thing is it took an event like this to wake people up to these types of problems.

Tyburn
09-13-2009, 03:22 PM
Looking death in the face 24/7 and dealing with the stress involved in doing so, causes alot of people to break down. Everyone reacts differently. It is a hard, hard life and unless you have lived it, you would never understand it.

I don't know the details and do not condone anything these soldiers did, I am just speaking from experience.

They would all have probably committed suicide if they had gotten away with it. It is a hard thing to recover from.

Making it out of a combat zone after becoming accustomed to it, does not make you a survivor. Suicide in the military is at an alltime high amongst our 'survivors'.


That is because to become a soldier in the first place you have to be broken from being a normal citizen. Its what Basic Training is all about. Whilst its fine and creates good soldiers out of often unruly teenagers...what you have to remember is a lot of them dont die in the military.

This means at some point they must leave and return to life as a civilian, and NO military on this planet is actually capable of returning these people to who they were BEFORE Basic Training.

Alot have issues to do with anger, to do with managing their own wellbeing, to do with handling money...because the military has always taken care and told them what to do, there has been a j-type structure for everything that simply does not exist outside of the Forces.

many more are traumatized, they have seen dreadful things, they may have done things that once back as a civilian seem hard to understand with. Again the treatment of soldiers AFTER discharge by the armed forces is once again lacking, in ALL countries, the armed services basically only know how to turn someone into a soldier and look after them whilst they are. They dont know how to turn a soldier back into a civilian and how to care for them after that.

Regardless, though, laws are laws. If someone needs treatment, the army, or armed services have to start taking responsibility for these people they are letting back into the civilian population. They need to make sure they get the medical attention they need...and that does not include trying to force them through rehabilitation and then washing their hands of them.

ALL Militaries struggle with this...its not a US issue by any stretch of the imagination. The same is true in Britian, and in all Armed Forces which are properly structured

But then, if you wanted the Military to do that, you'd have to increase the budgit, and it wouldnt be going on defence or weaponary, but actually extra protocol, and a hell of a lot of medical resources and personnel. The Armies would have to start employing people whose specific tasks were the rehabilitation and reintegration of soldiers into society...if you like...an anti-basic training reversal scheme...that would have to be compulsory to everyone, including those who are dishounerably discharged...unless you were going to bung them straight into prison...but even then...what do you do when they have served their sentance and are released...you think the Penal Service is any better at dealing with this then the military?

Its a complete mindset change. The process should be just as tough as Basic...because essentially, you have to break the person everytime you want to re-install.

you break the man to become a soldier...how do you break a soldier to become a man again?

ERStettin
09-13-2009, 05:47 PM
Basic training isn't the problem here. Dealing with the reality of war is.

Basic does nothing more than give you a taste of what is expected of you as a military member.....thus the name, Basic Training. AIT (Advanced Individual Training) and the advance MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) training is where you learn the skills you really need to do your job. After that, you take it with you and fine tune the skills. Leaders that have been in combat environments help you along with your skills and should be there for you in tough times. The leaders of these soldiers failed them.

The real issue here is not basic or the advanced training these soldiers recieved. It is dealing with the realitys of war. The effects of war are different for every individual. These soldiers showed warning signs that were not properly dealt with. It resulted in a horrendous crime.

I believe their professional training had little, if anything, to do with it. If anything, they should have been trained better on how to deal with these stresses or taken out of the AO and given treatment.

I also believe you could not and should never try to take the soldier out of the man in an effort to make them the person they were before they joined. I honestly think it would be next to impossible to accomplish. The military values are good values; honor, integrity, discipline, ect.. Here is a good article for you to read on this. http://www.careertrainer.com/Request.jsp?lView=ViewArticle&Article=OID%3A110326

Why would anyone want to be taught to be undisciplined or a trouble maker, ect., the way you seemed to describe them prior to their military training?

I believe if people in our country possessed more of the same values our military men and women are taught, we would be a better country.

In summary, I believe these soldiers are casualtys of war. It is my opinion their leadership failed them. They didn't recognize and properly diagnose the problem and it ended up getting people killed. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am drawing from my 22 years of Army experience.

Bonnie
09-13-2009, 07:11 PM
Basic training isn't the problem here. Dealing with the reality of war is.

Basic does nothing more than give you a taste of what is expected of you as a military member.....thus the name, Basic Training. AIT (Advanced Individual Training) and the advance MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) training is where you learn the skills you really need to do your job. After that, you take it with you and fine tune the skills. Leaders that have been in combat environments help you along with your skills and should be there for you in tough times. The leaders of these soldiers failed them.

The real issue here is not basic or the advanced training these soldiers recieved. It is dealing with the realitys of war. The effects of war are different for every individual. These soldiers showed warning signs that were not properly dealt with. It resulted in a horrendous crime.

I believe their professional training had little, if anything, to do with it. If anything, they should have been trained better on how to deal with these stresses or taken out of the AO and given treatment.

I also believe you could not and should never try to take the soldier out of the man in an effort to make them the person they were before they joined. I honestly think it would be next to impossible to accomplish. The military values are good values; honor, integrity, discipline, ect.. Here is a good article for you to read on this. http://www.careertrainer.com/Request.jsp?lView=ViewArticle&Article=OID%3A110326

Why would anyone want to be taught to be undisciplined or a trouble maker, ect., the way you seemed to describe them prior to their military training?

I believe if people in our country possessed more of the same values our military men and women are taught, we would be a better country.

In summary, I believe these soldiers are casualtys of war. It is my opinion their leadership failed them. They didn't recognize and properly diagnose the problem and it ended up getting people killed. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am drawing from my 22 years of Army experience.

I agree with this. Like you said 24/7, and then serving multiple tours is a recipe for a lot of things to go wrong inside these soldiers. So many of them are so young dropped in a foreign hostile place always having to be on guard never sure who/what is waiting to strike them. That has to take a toll on a person mentally. I've read where being in that fight/flight mode constantly is dangerous. Suicide is up as well as domestic violence with a lot of these guys coming home. It's scary because from what I've seen the military basically just cuts them loose not helping them through this stuff. They are on their own with little to no help to cope with everything they've been through. I fear what is being unleashed back here in/on society. I fear there are a lot of ticking timebombs walking around out there.

As for these men, Green and the others, they are where they belong. I do hope they are getting psychological help though.

ERStettin
09-13-2009, 08:15 PM
The military is actually getting better at the pre seperation counseling now. It was brought to light soon after we started coming home early in 2004. I believe it has gotten better since that time. We served in a combat zone the first time and were required to see a counselor prior to them letting us take our leave. They check you out and if anything further is required for you, they assist in making sure you recieve it.

I don't think you will ever get any better support from anyone than you would from your family. That is some of the problem too. As good as that support is, if you have a wife/husband that leaves you or a parent/child that dies, ect. while you are deployed, it makes it tougher, obviously. Having strong family ties and support is VERY important for the majority of these guys.

As far as the ticking time bomb comment. I don't know, but I suspect it will be no worse than the Vietnam era. That was a drafted military as well. This is an all volunteer military. It does make a difference in perspective. People want to be here, they were not forced. As such, I think they are more willing or accepting of their jobs and all that it entails.

Bonnie
09-13-2009, 09:18 PM
I didn't mean to sound like everyone coming back from the war are a bunch of loose cannons. Not at all. Everyone is different in how they handle things. The "ticking timebomb" comment was really about these guys' coping skills/abilities--being able to come back home and adjust to life with family, jobs, society, etc... given what they've seen and had to do to survive while doing their job/duty. Having a strong family base, I agree, is important for them, but a lot of people don't have that waiting for them when they get home. I hope you did. :)

Tyburn
09-13-2009, 10:05 PM
Why would anyone want to be taught to be undisciplined or a trouble maker, ect., the way you seemed to describe them prior to their military training?

I believe if people in our country possessed more of the same values our military men and women are taught, we would be a better country.


The point is, they dont.

...and the point is, when you finish with the military that is the world you have to live in.

Yes...some blame can be given on to the leadership...but lets not pretend this soldier is innocent. Murder, you shouldnt need training to tell you not to do it. If you have already confess to wanting to kill, then you cant claim its anything but premeditated...so...forget about claiming diminished responsibility.

The military values might be good...so long as the soldier remember he isnt in the military any more, and can deal with the fact not everyone will hold or act like him. You'd be suprised how many people struggle with readapting back to civilian life...civilian life is NOT military life.

atomdanger
09-13-2009, 10:48 PM
"Green was seen by army mental health professionals after he had talked about a desire to kill Iraqi civilians."

RED FLAG, RED FLAG, RED FLAG.

Not condoning what he did at all, raping a 14 year old should be a death sentence,
but the guy was obviously needing some help.

Why is it we don't seem to take care of our men and women in the military?

atomdanger
09-13-2009, 10:51 PM
The military values are good values; honor, integrity, discipline, ect..



ehhh... I don't know how much I buy that whole deal.
Thank you to the people who serve this country, but do you know how many women are raped while in the military?
Or the number of alcoholics? Or abusive marriages?

I don't think our military does enough for the men and women in service at all,
not mentally speaking.

que
09-14-2009, 03:06 AM
that is some hardcore stuff he did there. i say kill him. no injection please, that is painless. hanging or electric chair i hope

ERStettin
09-14-2009, 08:33 AM
I didn't mean to sound like everyone coming back from the war are a bunch of loose cannons. Not at all. Everyone is different in how they handle things. The "ticking timebomb" comment was really about these guys' coping skills/abilities--being able to come back home and adjust to life with family, jobs, society, etc... given what they've seen and had to do to survive while doing their job/duty. Having a strong family base, I agree, is important for them, but a lot of people don't have that waiting for them when they get home. I hope you did. :)

I understand what you mean, Bonnie. I agree with you. Thanks for the clarification though.

Tyburn,

As far as understanding the transitionn from military to civilian life, I understand it very well. I have only been out 13 months. It takes effort to become a civilian again. I will always miss the military and my new job provides me with a nice 'in between' to allow me the time I need to become a civilian again. However, I will never become the person I was before I came into the Army. That is my point.

As far as these soldiers that committed this crime? They were in country when it happened. That was not a case of them coming home and committing these crimes. To me, it was clearly an incident that was caused by the stressors of war. I am not trying to minimize or condone their actions. They were wrong and will pay dearly for it.

My point is this. I believe their actions were directly related to them being in a combat environment, facing the possiblility of death every day of their exsistence while in country. The vast majority make it, some don't.

When you face it day in and day out and don't have anyone but others who wear the uniform, to trust, you tend to get jaded. EVERYONE starts looking like the enemy. The terrorists are ruthless and have no rules how they fight. You are always looking over your shoulders and it is true, that many of them are blending into the towns and villages that American and allied troops occupy. You don't go anywhere without your weapon, don't look at anything as being safe, any odd sound, jesture, suspicious looks, makes you aware of a potential threat. That is how you live. That is how you have to live to stay alive.

Case in point. There was a lady, with a baby that walked into a market place heavily frequented by American and allied soldiers. She walked into the middle of the market and blew herself and her baby up. Killing and wounding those around her. You are ALWAYS living with this type of thing.

They use common things like clocks, soda cans, ect., as bombs. A normal person wouldn't think twice about seeing something like this. A soldier looks at this and sees a potential threat. We have found these things here on Bagram. No matter how much you screen nationals prior to letting them on base, there always seems to be a couple that make it through and use the information they gather to attack and kill you.

One Afghani that was allowed to work on base, was caught pacing off the distance from the fence line to one of our sleeping tents. They do this to help figure the trajectory on rockets and mortars that can be fired outside the fence and into our area to kill us. Several months ago a soldier was killed by one of these attacks, here on Bagram. His wife was also a military member and had just left their place for the DFAC (Dining Facility) for some dinner. He was the only one left in their hooch and a direct hit from a mortar killed him.

Imagine living like this? Imagine the stresses these soldiers working a gate, have to face on a daily basis when car bombs are so common here. You just never know who is real and who is going to kill you.

It is nothing for the Taliban to cut off a head, disembowel you, ect.. They are not soldiers, they are terrorists. That is how they fight.

This is my point. I believe these soldiers are casualties of this war. As henious as their crimes were, I can understand how it may have happened. I am NOT condoning it. I just understand how they got to that point where they broke and turned on these people.

It is a rare occurence but things like this seem to happen in every war. I remember similar storys from Vietnam. For the number of soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines participating in our wars, it is not a common occurence. However, some break and this is the result. I think I understand how they got to that point.

You seem to have focused on the crime. I am trying to show why it may have happened without sympathizing with it.

Buzzard
09-14-2009, 09:04 AM
Thanks for the insight.

ERStettin
09-14-2009, 09:55 AM
You're welcome.

Here is an article from the Stars and Stripes that was posted on the front page of the paper, yesterday (Monday, 14 September 09). The Stars and Stripes is our newspaper overseas. All military facilities get it. http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=64762

Here is the article on PTSD (Post Traumatice Stress Disorder) in the event the link does not work.

Pentagon is treating troops for PTSD, but experts say measurements are lacking
By Megan McCloskey, Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Monday, September 14, 2009


WASHINGTON — With an estimated 20 percent of U.S. servicemembers returning from war zones suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, a burgeoning suicide rate in the ranks and occasional murder or other extreme outbursts of violence, the Pentagon is scrambling to grapple with the mounting psychological fallout from America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Combat stress clinics have been set up near the front lines. Troops in training are learning how to gird themselves against mental troubles. Officers are required to watch for signs of suicide risks among their subordinates.

But in a vast military organization obsessed with metrics and measuring every aspect of its performance, experts say there is one glaring gap: The Pentagon has no system in place to evaluate whether its downrange crisis interventions are actually working.

At the stress clinics, or "restoration centers" as the military calls them, servicemembers experiencing acute mental trauma can get a few days’ respite away from the war and consult with nurses, psychologists and psychiatrists. The only outcome the Army measures is what percentage of soldiers are able to quickly return to the front lines: 97 percent.

"[Downrange] the mental health professional’s primary mission is to get people back to duty," said Dr. Mardi Horowitz, a psychiatrist and PTSD authority who helped define the disorder in the 1970s. "It’s not an individual’s health."

There are no attempts being made to count the number of soldiers who visit the combat stress clinics or track their long-term mental health — an omission, mental health experts say, that means the military has no way of knowing about subsequent discipline problems, violent behavior or suicide attempts that might be traced back to battlefield stress.

Even at the Defense Center for Excellence in Psychological Health and Traumatic Brain Injury, created in 2007 to spearhead the Pentagon’s mental health efforts, no official in the research, surveillance or program evaluation divisions was able to answer questions posed by Stars and Stripes about the efficacy of downrange mental health interventions.

"None of the folks at [the center] are well-versed enough in this area," said spokeswoman Judith Evans.

Nor are there programs in place to attempt to answer other fundamental questions about the combat stress clinics, such as the proportion of soldiers who seek treatment who are eventually discharged from the military because of mental disabilities.

Such concerns about the perceived stigma of seeking psychological help, as well as widely-held fears among servicemembers that they will suffer adverse career repercussions if they admit to experiencing battlefield mental trauma, remain major obstacles to treatment, military leaders have often acknowledged.

"There are some institutional policies that put a stigma in place that makes it difficult to get care," said Capt. Paul Hammer, director of the Naval Center for Combat and Operational Stress Control.

The workings of the combat stress clinics came under scrutiny in May after a soldier shot up a Baghdad clinic where he had earlier been treated, killing five fellow servicemembers in an incident that ranked as the deadliest instance of soldier-on-soldier violence in the Iraq war.

A detailed Army report about combat mental health issues, sparked by that deadly incident, is currently in the hands of commanders at Multi-National Force Iraq headquarters and is expected to be publicly released soon.

To be sure, the majority of servicemembers who deploy downrange do not suffer severe mental health issues or explode into violence. And Pentagon officials contend that since such a high proportion of troops are able to return to duty soon after visiting combat stress clinics, what goes on at the centers must be working, even if they haven’t measured it.

The goal in theater is "helping people function as best you can to preserve the fighting strength of the force … helping them deal with what they need to deal with," said Hammer.

That warfighting priority is reflected in the fundamental orientation of the Combat and Operational Stress Control program — the military’s formal name for its mental health units, including the stress clinics. It is a commander’s program, in which mental health professionals make recommendations, but "ultimately it’s a leadership decision" whether to send a soldier back to the front, said Lt. Col. Edward Brusher, deputy director of the Army surgeon general’s behavioral health office.

Combat stress reactions are not automatically considered a medical problem. Only when there is a severe diagnosable psychiatric condition — such as PTSD, depression or schizophrenia — does evacuation from the theater become a medical decision. Otherwise, a commander can overrule a recommendation to evacuate, according to Maj. Tim Carroll, the officer in charge of the Army’s mental resiliency training office.

The commander might instead agree that the servicemember "can’t go back out and kick down a door" and but can remain in theater to do administrative functions, he said.

Hammer said that often "what we’re dealing with in theater is symptoms" that many times "don’t fulfill the criteria for PTSD."

Since 2003, more than 4,700 servicemembers have been evacuated from Iraq and Afghanistan because of mental disorders, according to the Defense Department’s Health Affairs Office. One-third of those evacuations were for depression and depressive disorders; only 775 soldiers have been evacuated with a diagnosis of PTSD.

Some experts criticize the military for using criteria that is too strict in diagnosing PTSD.

A 2008 study by the RAND think tank concluded that the military could be underestimating the number of veterans who return with the condition, suggesting that at least one in five soldiers deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan suffers from PTSD.

Civilian psychiatrists who specialize in PTSD said keeping servicemembers in the field who are highly symptomatic of PTSD could put them at risk for being re-traumatized and have significant long-term consequences.

"A great deal has been learned but seems to be forgotten with each war," Horowitz said. "And not because it’s not written down but because of the people involved with remembering."

RAND found in the wide-ranging 2008 study assessing the cognitive needs of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans that quality of care was absent from the discussion within the Department of Defense.

"One criticism we made of DOD is they don’t currently do a lot of self-evaluation within their medical system," said Lisa Jaycox, one of the study’s lead authors.

Yet studying the effects of mental health treatment in a combat zone is difficult, Pentagon officials reply.

"That’s the crux of the problem," said Lt. Col. Paul Bliese, chief of military psychiatry at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research.

With the Army’s other mental health programs, such as mental resiliency training, researchers can design experiments with randomization and control groups that "allow us with precision to identify the effects of what we’re doing," Bliese said. "We don’t have the ability to do that in theater."

The Defense Department does send a Mental Health Assessment Team to both Iraq and Afghanistan every one to two years to assess the overall mental health of servicemembers. The team surveys troops about morale, combat exposure and the accessibility of mental health resources.

But Bliese, who heads the MHAT, said those assessments track broad trends and are more about access to resources, preventative measures and resiliency than evaluating the effectiveness of treatments that individual servicemembers receive.

"A lot of what you do that is effective is difficult to pin down in a data element that you could actually grab," said Hammer.


Adopting a new coping strategy

"Resiliency" is the new buzzword in the realm of military mental health.

The Pentagon’s focus has turned to preventing debilitating combat stress by teaching coping strategies.

"Our attitude has changed significantly," Capt. Paul Hammer, director of the Naval Combat and Operational Control Center, said. "We’re much more aware of how important mental health is for people’s ability to function."

At the start of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, troops received only brief mental health training before combat deployments. Now the concept of resiliency is becoming a regular part of training from day one. Beginning in October, the first week of basic training will include anti-stress programs aimed at building coping skills. Formally called Comprehensive Soldier Fitness, the effort will expand to include all levels of Army education.

Studies suggest that mental toughness can be taught in the classroom. However, these initiatives have largely focused on pre- and post-deployment, teaching resiliency skills first for prevention and then for reintegration.

The Army is adapting the idea of resiliency for downrange, reflecting the changing ways mental health professionals are used in the field.

"The model is not to sit there and wait for people to show up. We’ve moved away from that completely," said Lt. Col. Paul Bliese, chief of military psychiatry at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research. "The behavioral health officer needs to be actively involved in the lives of soldiers in a unit."

Army medics now are trained to spot combat stress and help a soldier cope. Mental health professionals also conduct periodic psychological "debriefings" with a unit — at four and eight months into a deployment, for example — and also do them in response to a critical event. The debriefings last about an hour and allow servicemembers to talk about their reactions to stressors, the goal being to address issues before they can fester. Walter Reed officials recommend the debriefings, but they are not mandatory.

Neezar
09-14-2009, 02:29 PM
ehhh... I don't know how much I buy that whole deal.
Thank you to the people who serve this country, but do you know how many women are raped while in the military?
Or the number of alcoholics? Or abusive marriages?

I don't think our military does enough for the men and women in service at all,
not mentally speaking.

No. Do you know how many?

Do you know how often this happens in the police world? How many cops are like that? How about football players (aggresive sports players)? How about doctors? Judges? Politicians? Or any other person living under constant strain/stress? The military is no more prone to it than anyone else. It just shocks us more when it happens because we have this preconcieved notion of who they should be.

Tyburn
09-14-2009, 03:10 PM
No. Do you know how many?

Do you know how often this happens in the police world? How many cops are like that? How about football players (aggresive sports players)? How about doctors? Judges? Politicians? Or any other person living under constant strain/stress? The military is no more prone to it than anyone else. It just shocks us more when it happens because we have this preconcieved notion of who they should be.

Very true :ninja:

atomdanger
09-14-2009, 08:43 PM
No. Do you know how many?

Do you know how often this happens in the police world? How many cops are like that? How about football players (aggresive sports players)? How about doctors? Judges? Politicians? Or any other person living under constant strain/stress? The military is no more prone to it than anyone else. It just shocks us more when it happens because we have this preconcieved notion of who they should be.


I will bet Dr's judges and politicians are WELL under the numbers for military.
I will bet the military is MUCH more prone to it than other jobs.

"Of the young men in all branches of the military,
32.2 percent engaged in heavy drinking,
compared with 17.8 percent of civilian men."
http://www.enotalone.com/article/11185.html
The National Institutes of Health

32 compared to 17, thats about double, just admitting to being heavy drinkers.
That was one quick google search.
Tomorrow is my day off and I will do a little more research, but my money is on military families having high rates for alcoholism, divorce, etc... More so than Dr's and judges lol

atomdanger
09-14-2009, 08:51 PM
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/divdomviolence/l/aadomviol1.htm
http://www.refusingtokill.net/rape/domesticviolencein%20themilitary.htm
http://www.dvmen.org/dv-35.htm

domestic violence rates seem to be much higher than civilian rates as well.
Again, just quick searches, I will give you much more solid figures when I have time.

I am in no way attacking any military personnel,
I am forever grateful for what these people do for my family and I.
What I am saying is, we obviously aren't taking the steps to take care of them mentally.

Neezar
09-14-2009, 09:06 PM
I will bet Dr's judges and politicians are WELL under the numbers for military.
I will bet the military is MUCH more prone to it than other jobs.

"Of the young men in all branches of the military,
32.2 percent engaged in heavy drinking,
compared with 17.8 percent of civilian men."
http://www.enotalone.com/article/11185.html
The National Institutes of Health

32 compared to 17, thats about double, just admitting to being heavy drinkers.
That was one quick google search.
Tomorrow is my day off and I will do a little more research, but my money is on military families having high rates for alcoholism, divorce, etc... More so than Dr's and judges lol

You are right, the numbers probaly are higher than judges. However, the field of police, medical field, and college civilians? I don't know about that.

Plus, your article also shows that many of those heavy drinkers were heavy drinkers before they joined the military.

Also, the research was done using standardization.

"among young military personnel differs markedly from that of civilians in the same age group, as revealed by standardized comparisons. Standardization is a set of techniques used to remove, as far as possible, the effects of differences in age, gender, or other confounding factors when comparing two populations"

That means that they get to hand pick who they include in the results. They are more than likely trying to be fair, however, their JOB is to prove or disprove information that the media wants to put out there. So they would want numbers to support their declaration.


NIH is the nation's medical research agency - making important medical discoveries that improve health and save lives. The National Institutes of Health (NIH), a part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, is the primary Federal agency for conducting and supporting medical research.

I would like to see who they actually used to get the numbers.

Neezar
09-14-2009, 09:08 PM
This is from a study

According to the study, the highest rates of current illicit drug use were among food service workers (17.4 percent) and construction workers (15.1 percent). The highest rates of current heavy alcohol use were found among construction, mining, excavation and drilling workers (17.8 percent), and installation, maintenance and repair workers (14.7 percent).


http://www.rti.org/news.cfm?nav=493&objectid=905B335F-53C2-4E88-9D793D39B2E45F89

que
09-14-2009, 09:13 PM
What I am saying is, we obviously aren't taking the steps to take care of them mentally.

that is a good point, but i think a more important question is, are we taking the right steps to screen new recruits before they even pass the test to sign up? studies have shown that murderers and rapists didn't become like that over night, or even over a few years. they have shown signs of that kind of disturbing behavior for their entire lifetime.

now of course war can do strange things to a man, and possibly even drive a completely normal person mad to the point where he might snap and commit a crime like this after having no previous history of mental trouble... but i'm willing to bet this dude was f***** in the head for a very very long time before he even signed up for the military. military needs screen people more in depth for this kind of stuff. throwing someone who is already messed up in the head into war is a deadly cocktail

County Mike
09-14-2009, 09:16 PM
The people who are already messed in the head are easier to mold into soldiers who might need to kill. The military WANTS those people. They don't want to screen them out.

Problem is, you occasionally get a situation like this where the nut job is able to run rampant on innocent civilians instead of on the enemy.

bradwright
09-14-2009, 09:21 PM
No. Do you know how many?

Do you know how often this happens in the police world? How many cops are like that? How about football players (aggresive sports players)? How about doctors? Judges? Politicians? Or any other person living under constant strain/stress? The military is no more prone to it than anyone else. It just shocks us more when it happens because we have this preconcieved notion of who they should be.

i would never pretend to know where or when this type of thing happens the most but most of the people that join the military are young males that are for the most part leaving their wives and girlfriends behind when they do a tour of duty,this and the fact that they are injected into a world where a lot of times it is the choice between kill or be killed i could see how a few that were struggling mentally with the situation that they find themselves would be capable of anything after a while so while i have ABSOLUTLY NO PROOF TO BACK UP MY ASUMPTIONS i would think the instance of rape would be a lot higher among enlisted men then doctors,judges,politicians or any other part of society.

Neezar
09-14-2009, 09:25 PM
i would never pretend to know where or when this type of thing happens the most but most of the people that join the military are young males that are for the most part leaving their wives and girlfriends behind when they do a tour of duty,this and the fact that they are injected into a world where a lot of times it is the choice between kill or be killed i could see how a few that were struggling mentally with the situation that they find themselves would be capable of anything after a while so while i have ABSOLUTLY NO PROOF TO BACK UP MY ASUMPTIONS i would think the instance of rape would be a lot higher among enlisted men then doctors,judges,politicians or any other part of society.

So you think more military women get raped than college girls? Or that more military men come off base and rape?

Hmmm, I wonder if the rate of rape is higher near military bases? You just may be on to something there.

edit: Or that the men rape each other? (didn't want to leave them out and have them getting their feelings hurt. lol)

bradwright
09-14-2009, 09:33 PM
So you think more military women get raped than college girls? Or that more military men come off base and rape?

Hmmm, I wonder if the rate of rape is higher near military bases? You just may be on to something there.

edit: Or that the men rape each other? (didn't want to leave them out and have them getting their feelings hurt. lol)

no thats not actually what i'm saying at all.
what i'm saying is that when these guys are in a combat situation that it wouldn't surprise me at all if the incident of rape went way up,
as far as military women being raped is a high probability i think the numbers there would be low,
and the rate of rape near a military base would depend on which base it was and how near to it your talking about.

atomdanger
09-14-2009, 09:50 PM
This is from a study



http://www.rti.org/news.cfm?nav=493&objectid=905B335F-53C2-4E88-9D793D39B2E45F89

Right, and look at your numbers,
the study I posted shows over 30 percent for military.

atomdanger
09-14-2009, 09:51 PM
that is a good point, but i think a more important question is, are we taking the right steps to screen new recruits before they even pass the test to sign up? studies have shown that murderers and rapists didn't become like that over night, or even over a few years. they have shown signs of that kind of disturbing behavior for their entire lifetime.

now of course war can do strange things to a man, and possibly even drive a completely normal person mad to the point where he might snap and commit a crime like this after having no previous history of mental trouble... but i'm willing to bet this dude was f***** in the head for a very very long time before he even signed up for the military. military needs screen people more in depth for this kind of stuff. throwing someone who is already messed up in the head into war is a deadly cocktail


I am not aware of any sort of real mental health screening before being able to sign up for the military.

Anybody who has served? Shed some light?

Crisco
09-14-2009, 10:50 PM
MY friend just came home from a tour. He was an MP and he said 7 out of 10 calls where some Marine or other military personal beating his wife.

It's a high stress job and abuse is rampant. Most in the military will admit it.

ERStettin
09-15-2009, 06:18 AM
The military officially screens an applicants background not mental state. If the guy wants to serve and can pass as a 'normal human being' during the recruiting process, he is usually good to go.

To whoever said the military wants guys who are not right in the head because they are more apt to shoot an enemy combatant, please provide a link to support that. That might work in Hollywood movies but not in the military.

Here is a summary of the findings of a Naval Post Graduate Study to support what I am saying. http://www.stormingmedia.us/01/0107/A010794.html

It is the exact opposite in fact. I came in the Army in 1986 and there was a study out that year that proved suburbanites, farm kids, ect., were MUCH better soldiers than those that were from a more urban background. Alot of it had to do with higher education levels, retention levels, being healthier (came in with no medical waivers), ect..

Now, in the last couple years they have lowered the standard for recruits entrance into the military but that was inorder to get more recruits and not have to initiate a draft. That was all over the media for a while.

The military doesn't look at those recruits that are 'not right in the head' as ideal.

ERStettin
09-15-2009, 06:23 AM
MY friend just came home from a tour. He was an MP and he said 7 out of 10 calls where some Marine or other military personal beating his wife.

It's a high stress job and abuse is rampant. Most in the military will admit it.

I don't know if I would consider it rampant but it is higher during times of war. During times of peace, it is MUCH lower, for obvious reasons. So I would say if the study that supports this rampant abuse comment were conducted during the last 8 years, in relation to the 8 previous years, a person might consider it rampant.

If you did a study over the 22 years I served, 8 of those years we were at war, 14 of them were served peacefully. I would bet the numbers would be much lower on abuse cases.