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Play The Man
08-23-2009, 06:28 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/cartoons/6059421/Worlds-first-Muslim-superheroes-the-99-are-headed-for-British-television-screens.html

Named the 99, as each possesses one of Allah's 99 attributes, the characters include a burka-clad woman named Batina the Hidden and a Saudi Arabian Hulk-type man named Jabbar the Powerful.

They have proved a hit from Morocco to Indonesia and were recently named as one of the top 20 trends sweeping the world by Forbes magazine.

Now they are being brought to British television by Endemol, the production company behind Big Brother, with a mission to instill Islamic values in children across all faiths.

Until now, the superhero market has been dominated by the likes of Batman, Spiderman and Superman who have typically limited their crime-fighting abilities to America and the Western world.

They were created by Dr Naif al-Mutawa, a clinical psychologist from Kuwait, who felt Muslim children needed a new set of heroes to look up to, to counter jihadist role models.

“It hit me that the stories I was hearing were from men who grew up believing that their leader, Saddam, was a hero, a role model — only to one day be tortured by him,” he told The Times. “I decided the Arab world needed better role models.”

However, despite being called the 99, there will never be a full cast of 99 superheroes since it is forbidden to depict all Allah's attributes

Dr al-Mutawa hopes the cartoons will have a universal appeal.

He said: “It is based on attributes such as generosity and mercy. These are not things that Islam has a monopoly over.”

. . . or practices. I would bet the "Human Bomb" character was left on the cutting room floor.

Vizion
08-23-2009, 08:13 PM
"Human Bomb" - HAHA!:laugh:

Islam will bring about many human bombs when they enact their Sharia Law across all England in the next 50 years lest something very drastic takes place.

Oh, and English women might want to start birthing more sons too..(not that they're having any children for that matter) :unsure:

NateR
08-23-2009, 08:32 PM
Well, all these decades of Christians getting ripped apart by the media and the answer was right in front of us all along: terrorism, violence and strapping bombs to young children are the ways to the liberal media's heart.

And all these years, we've been wasting our time on charity, love and compassion. :rolleyes:

Tyburn
08-24-2009, 01:22 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/cartoons/6059421/Worlds-first-Muslim-superheroes-the-99-are-headed-for-British-television-screens.html



. . . or practices. I would bet the "Human Bomb" character was left on the cutting room floor.
:laugh: :laugh:

I've never heard of any of this

Buzzard
08-24-2009, 06:04 AM
Well, all these decades of Christians getting ripped apart by the media and the answer was right in front of us all along: terrorism, violence and strapping bombs to young children are the ways to the liberal media's heart.

And all these years, we've been wasting our time on charity, love and compassion. :rolleyes:


Which Christians are you referring to who have been ripped apart by the media?



I would bet the "Human Bomb" character was left on the cutting room floor.

I'm sure then if that happens and they make other superhero comics from different religions, the characters Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis,also known as the "Temple Destroyers", will also be left on the cutting room floor. There are others I guess wouldn't make it too, but since they aren't also as well known, they probably wouldn't make recognizable superheros either and would also be left on that same floor.

Play The Man
08-24-2009, 08:01 AM
Which Christians are you referring to who have been ripped apart by the media?



I'm sure then if that happens and they make other superhero comics from different religions, the characters Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis,also known as the "Temple Destroyers", will also be left on the cutting room floor. There are others I guess wouldn't make it too, but since they aren't also as well known, they probably wouldn't make recognizable superheros either and would also be left on that same floor.

http://alanisgood.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/do_not_feed_trolls.jpg

Tyburn
08-24-2009, 11:05 AM
http://alanisgood.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/do_not_feed_trolls.jpg
:laugh: :laugh:

adamt
08-24-2009, 12:45 PM
. . . or practices. I would bet the "Human Bomb" character was left on the cutting room floor.

I get so tired of people making fun of muslims. Like when they call them towelheads. They don't use towels on their heads. There turbans are made of little sheets.


















So muslims are more accurately reffered to as little sheetheads.............



















:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

adamt
08-24-2009, 12:46 PM
what does hiroshima and tehran have in common?

adamt
08-24-2009, 12:46 PM
nothing..........










yet :D

cubsfan47
08-24-2009, 01:03 PM
nothing..........










yet :D
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Tyburn
08-24-2009, 01:24 PM
I get so tired of people making fun of muslims. Like when they call them towelheads. They don't use towels on their heads. There turbans are made of little sheets.


















So muslims are more accurately reffered to as little sheetheads.............



















:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Muslims dont wear turbans. Thats sheiks or whatever they call themselves...and some hindus also. They might wear turbans in the desert but thats for protection from the elements I believe

Buzzard
08-24-2009, 08:35 PM
http://alanisgood.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/do_not_feed_trolls.jpg


Not trolling at all. You seem to acknowledge and enjoy taking swipes at the wrongs done in the name of other religions but not from your own. I'll acknowledge the wrongs done in the name of all religions if put before me and from those with no religious affiliations.

Have a great day.

Vizion
08-24-2009, 09:07 PM
Not trolling at all. You seem to acknowledge and enjoy taking swipes at the wrongs done in the name of other religions but not from your own. I'll acknowledge the wrongs done in the name of all religions if put before me and from those with no religious affiliations.

Have a great day. When have you ever swiped at anything here other than Christianity? :unsure-1:

rearnakedchoke
08-24-2009, 09:16 PM
i think the intent of the author is a valiant one ... to get people thinking less of people like bin laden and hussein and more like others ... seems quite harmless to me ...

Vizion
08-24-2009, 09:46 PM
i think the intent of the author is a valiant one ... to get people thinking less of people like bin laden and hussein and more like others ... seems quite harmless to me ...sure, indoctrination of youth has never been harmless, or anything.....:Whistle:

adamt
08-24-2009, 10:32 PM
Muslims dont wear turbans. Thats sheiks or whatever they call themselves...and some hindus also. They might wear turbans in the desert but thats for protection from the elements I believe




turbans aren't affiliated with a religion as much as they are the culture. French muslims might not wear turbans but afghan muslims do. That's like saying christians don't go barefoot. Maybe not in new york. But I bet they do in kentucky. Ask kentuckyredbone if all barefooted people are christians or if all barefooted people are not christians.

And to be exact it is suggested that muslims wear turbans to be different and show they are apart. But I think it is about as enforced as women wearing head coverings is in christianity.

Tyburn
08-24-2009, 10:39 PM
turbans aren't affiliated with a religion as much as they are the culture. French muslims might not wear turbans but afghan muslims do. That's like saying christians don't go barefoot. Maybe not in new york. But I bet they do in kentucky. Ask kentuckyredbone if all barefooted people are christians or if all barefooted people are not christians.

And to be exact it is suggested that muslims wear turbans to be different and show they are apart. But I think it is about as enforced as women wearing head coverings is in christianity.
The point I was making is that the joke, whilst quite possibly culturally prejudice isnt actually anti muslim, because not all of them wear turbans...whereas there are religions where a turban is part of the religious dress...just like the carrying of a knife up their sleave, I think thats sheikism aswell:laugh:

Tyburn
08-24-2009, 10:40 PM
When have you ever swiped at anything here other than Christianity? :unsure-1:
maybe politics...I cant remember :laugh:

Crisco
08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
i think the intent of the author is a valiant one ... to get people thinking less of people like bin laden and hussein and more like others ... seems quite harmless to me ...

Anything that encourages children to look up to an islamic super hero following Sharia law is far from harmless bro.

Play The Man
08-25-2009, 12:53 AM
nothing..........










yet :D

Do you really want to be making jokes about the mass incineration of tens of thousands of people? I realize that President Truman had to make a difficult choice and given the circumstances of the war, it was probably the correct choice; however, I don't think it should be fodder for jokes. Additionally, I have no love for the country of Iran but I sincerely hope and pray that their belligerence doesn't provoke a nuclear attack on them, or anyone else.

Buzzard
08-25-2009, 01:44 AM
When have you ever swiped at anything here other than Christianity? :unsure-1:


What swipes are you referring to? Would one of those be where I said I was glad to be agnostic if the quote from Chris F was true in regard to all relationships starting from sin and when he clarified his point and I then stated my point would be moot due to his clarification? Or would it maybe be one where a first attack was made against another religion and I brought up the fact that there were atrocities committed by the followers of the religion practiced by the poster?

I've seen attacks on here aimed at the Mormon faith, Islamic faith and other religions and then followed by a bunch of people jumping in on the attacking bandwagon. I sure hope this isn't what people of all religions do, as it sure doesn't appear to be a very good example to follow. I would like to think that if there was such a man named Jesus which the bible speaks of, He Himself would not lower himself to those levels. At least that is what I remember from what I have read.

All I'm doing is pointing the finger back at those who have poked first.

Have a good night.

Vizion
08-25-2009, 02:36 AM
I've seen attacks on here aimed at the Mormon faith, Islamic faith and other religions and then followed by a bunch of people jumping in on the attacking bandwagon.

All I'm doing is pointing the finger back at those who have poked first.hmm...not sure what attacks you refer of...however, a voiced opinion does not equate necessarily to an attack, tho those do exist here as well. Being how neutral you seem to fancy yourself Buzzard, you must understand then that it is Christianity that is CONstantly under attack in the worldwide media. What tiny little voice we trumpet here cannot even barely compare with the mass of media spin that besieges us daily. Our belief system, and our Lord are ridiculed and ostricized to the ugliest of degrees. We are threatened every single day with losing our God-given freedoms and rights by our Godless leaders. Forgive us if we come off rather strong, you bear no umbrage against us perhaps, but many of those of your ilk surely do.

You're right, I am sorry I didn't mean swipes as in personal attacks, more like in just the contradictions you pose to many threads here. We may be defensive, but I'm sure you can understand why, yes?

Buzzard
08-25-2009, 07:14 AM
Being how neutral you seem to fancy yourself Buzzard, you must understand then that it is Christianity that is CONstantly under attack in the worldwide media. What tiny little voice we trumpet here cannot even barely compare with the mass of media spin that besieges us daily. Our belief system, and our Lord are ridiculed and ostricized to the ugliest of degrees. We are threatened every single day with losing our God-given freedoms and rights by our Godless leaders. Forgive us if we come off rather strong, you bear no umbrage against us perhaps, but many of those of your ilk surely do.

You're right, I am sorry I didn't mean swipes as in personal attacks, more like in just the contradictions you pose to many threads here. We may be defensive, but I'm sure you can understand why, yes?


I can understand being defensive, we all can be and I include myself in that.

One thing I don't really agree with is how you say that you are threatened every single day with losing your freedoms and rights. I don't see Christianity being constantly under attack by the worldwide media, but then I just may not notice it. Kind of like when you buy a new car you seem to notice all the cars that are like yours, but never noticed them until you bought one. I also don't see your belief system and your Lord being ridiculed, but again, maybe I just don't see it or notice it.

Thanks for the response. If you notice me doing any of the things you mention, please bring it to my attention.

Goodnight.

Tyburn
08-25-2009, 06:04 PM
Do you really want to be making jokes about the mass incineration of tens of thousands of people? I realize that President Truman had to make a difficult choice and given the circumstances of the war, it was probably the correct choice; however, I don't think it should be fodder for jokes. Additionally, I have no love for the country of Iran but I sincerely hope and pray that their belligerence doesn't provoke a nuclear attack on them, or anyone else.
Are you familiar with the living composer Karl Jenkins?

He wrote a Peace Mass Setting, which really has become more like a military Mass (like Brittens War Requiem, incidently Jenkins also has a setting of the Requiem) anyway, the Peace Mass has all the liturgical bits expected, but interspersed are other things. For example, there is a Rendition of the The Islamic Call For Prayer, swiftly followed by The Greek Kyrie, the two styles clash violently. His Gospel Procession is a setting of "Hymn Before Action" thats a poem written by Rudyard Kippling I believe who saw War. Much later on there is a section where the eye witness accounts of two battles are set to music. One is called "Angry Flames" and its an eye witness account to the Bombing of Hiroshima. It is chilling to say the least...would you like to hear it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmvw4KH9FJU

pushing up through smoke, from a world of dark and high over hanging cloud, the shroud that mushroomed out and struck the dome of the sky. Black, red, blue -dancing in air-merge. Scattered Glittering Sparks already towered above the whole city. Quivering like seaweed the mass of flames spurt foreward. Poping up in the dense smoke, crawling out, wreathed in fire, countless human beings on all fours, in a heap of embers that errupt, and subside, and rent ridgid in death, their smoulders are cursed

The Peace Mass is Entitled "The Armed Man" (L'home Arme)

That goes on to an even worse and more violent "Human Torches" Track...which I believe is some very ancient battle recorded in Hindu Scriptures or something.

During the Distribution of the Host, my Favourite Track would be performed. Its about what to do when the war is over and focuses on the soldiers who are left to tell the tale. Its perhaps the most moving bit of the whole work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWdMfe-DH54

Play The Man
08-25-2009, 08:05 PM
Are you familiar with the living composer Karl Jenkins?

He wrote a Peace Mass Setting, which really has become more like a military Mass (like Brittens War Requiem, incidently Jenkins also has a setting of the Requiem) anyway, the Peace Mass has all the liturgical bits expected, but interspersed are other things. For example, there is a Rendition of the The Islamic Call For Prayer, swiftly followed by The Greek Kyrie, the two styles clash violently. His Gospel Procession is a setting of "Hymn Before Action" thats a poem written by Rudyard Kippling I believe who saw War. Much later on there is a section where the eye witness accounts of two battles are set to music. One is called "Angry Flames" and its an eye witness account to the Bombing of Hiroshima. It is chilling to say the least...would you like to hear it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmvw4KH9FJU

pushing up through smoke, from a world of dark and high over hanging cloud, the shroud that mushroomed out and struck the dome of the sky. Black, red, blue -dancing in air-merge. Scattered Glittering Sparks already towered above the whole city. Quivering like seaweed the mass of flames spurt foreward. Poping up in the dense smoke, crawling out, wreathed in fire, countless human beings on all fours, in a heap of embers that errupt, and subside, and rent ridgid in death, their smoulders are cursed

The Peace Mass is Entitled "The Armed Man" (L'home Arme)

That goes on to an even worse and more violent "Human Torches" Track...which I believe is some very ancient battle recorded in Hindu Scriptures or something.

During the Distribution of the Host, my Favourite Track would be performed. Its about what to do when the war is over and focuses on the soldiers who are left to tell the tale. Its perhaps the most moving bit of the whole work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWdMfe-DH54

No, I was not familiar with that composer. Thank you. I will bookmark the link and watch it when I have some free time.

County Mike
08-25-2009, 08:08 PM
In a world of muslim superheroes, I want to be the ultra-villain.

Crisco
08-25-2009, 08:19 PM
In a world of muslim superheroes, I want to be the ultra-villain.

You already are Mike... and your just a regular dude who doesn't believe mo-hams lies.


That's the sad thing isn't it?

County Mike
08-25-2009, 08:21 PM
Tell 'em to Bring It! I'll gladly whoop some Jihad ass.

Crisco
08-25-2009, 08:33 PM
Tell 'em to Bring It! I'll gladly whoop some Jihad ass.

I'm with you bro.

I'm ready to bang out with some Jihaddiiiiis

County Mike
08-25-2009, 09:07 PM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/611D3SPXWJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

adamt
08-25-2009, 09:47 PM
Do you really want to be making jokes about the mass incineration of tens of thousands of people? I realize that President Truman had to make a difficult choice and given the circumstances of the war, it was probably the correct choice; however, I don't think it should be fodder for jokes. Additionally, I have no love for the country of Iran but I sincerely hope and pray that their belligerence doesn't provoke a nuclear attack on them, or anyone else.


who said anything about the mass incineration of tens of thousands of people?


besides they'll be alot more people burning when the world ends, and after.

I used to be real sympathetic about stuff like that too, til i read the old testament and saw how God dealt with 'em. I still don't understand the how and why but He sat the precedent.

Jonlion
08-25-2009, 10:32 PM
Tell 'em to Bring It! I'll gladly whoop some Jihad ass.

Whilst eating a bacon sandwich.............?

Crisco
08-25-2009, 10:34 PM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/611D3SPXWJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

**** YEA!

Crisco
08-25-2009, 10:34 PM
Whilst eating a bacon sandwich.............?

and surrounded by women wearing shorts and t-shirts learning math

Jonlion
08-25-2009, 10:35 PM
Vizion, shouldn't we love our enemies though?

Its a muslim cartoon for muslim kids, im not really all that bothered!

Crisco
08-25-2009, 10:40 PM
Vizion, shouldn't we love our enemies though?

Its a muslim cartoon for muslim kids, im not really all that bothered!

You will be when they get the new writing in.

You will see


"Death to America" shown on that show within a year of it's broadcasting.

Tyburn
08-26-2009, 12:36 AM
No, I was not familiar with that composer. Thank you. I will bookmark the link and watch it when I have some free time.
well if you go to the videos thread in the woodshed, I shall post links to as many of the tracks as are possible from his peacemass, and in the right order also :laugh:

TheConcretekid
08-26-2009, 06:19 PM
I know that many people here think that Islam equals terrorism, but at its core, it's just another religion, no more different to Christianity than Judaism is.

What has been happening in the middle east is that children, and grown men as well for that matter, are being taught that destroying and raping and killing are the ways to get on God's good side... this comic and these characters are trying to combat that, by personifying the good qualities that are actually taught in Islam.

"It hit me that the stories I was hearing were from men who grew up believing that their leader, Saddam, was a hero, a role model — only to one day be tortured by him," he told The Times. "I decided the Arab world needed better role models."

Vizion
08-26-2009, 06:44 PM
I know that many people here think that Islam equals terrorism, but at its core, it's just another religion, no more different to Christianity than Judaism is.

What has been happening in the middle east is that children, and grown men as well for that matter, are being taught that destroying and raping and killing are the ways to get on God's good side... this comic and these characters are trying to combat that, by personifying the good qualities that are actually taught in Islam.OOoooorrr...is that what they WANT you to think they are doing. Make no mistake, Islam is out to dominate THE WORLD. They will institue da'wah in order to take over from the inside out. Indoctrinating children under some false pretense is not beneath them.

Do not be fooled. If you believe the devil exists then know that he is the master of deception.

Crisco
08-26-2009, 06:50 PM
I know that many people here think that Islam equals terrorism, but at its core, it's just another religion, no more different to Christianity than Judaism is.

What has been happening in the middle east is that children, and grown men as well for that matter, are being taught that destroying and raping and killing are the ways to get on God's good side... this comic and these characters are trying to combat that, by personifying the good qualities that are actually taught in Islam.

One of the tenants of their faith is to conquer the world for Islam and force or kill everyone to conversion.

Vizion
08-26-2009, 06:50 PM
Furthermore what have muslims ever done to stop the image they have made for themselves? Other than the occasional "we don't agree" there is zero muslim outrage voiced over the actions of radical muslims enacting terror throughout the globe. Do they really think a cartoon will change people's perceptions of them? If it does work then they have succeeded in hoodwinking those people - a tactic of the devil, I'm pretty sure.

Don't buy into the age of political correctness friend.

TheConcretekid
08-26-2009, 09:38 PM
One of the tenants of their faith is to conquer the world for Islam and force or kill everyone to conversion.

Check out the Hebrew Bible, God told the Jews to do a lot of the same things to all gentiles... but today's Jewish people don't have Bin Ladens and Saddams running around. And most of the conflict between Israel and Lebanon (or Hezbollah, or however PC you want to be) is more of a blood right war than it is a holy war. One side hates the other because the other side hates them... they hate each other because that's what they've been doing for years.

It's like Northern Ireland and The Republic... there are no statutes in Catholicism or Protestantism doctrine that says they should be killing each other, in fact they use the (primarily) same exact Bible... they kill each other because they killed his brother who was killed because he killed that guys dad who was killed because he kill that guys uncle... an so on.

The chain needs to be broken at some point, and maybe if the next generation of Muslim children in the middle east become comic book nerds instead of being turned into suicide bombers... the world will be a better place for our children

County Mike
08-26-2009, 09:44 PM
Found some images of muslim superheroes

http://i26.tinypic.com/6sf78h.jpg
http://open.salon.com/files/characters-from-the-99-is-0011247053007.jpg
http://www.exposebarackobama.com/image/muslim.jpg

TheConcretekid
08-26-2009, 09:45 PM
Furthermore what have muslims ever done to stop the image they have made for themselves? Other than the occasional "we don't agree" there is zero muslim outrage voiced over the actions of radical muslims enacting terror throughout the globe. Do they really think a cartoon will change people's perceptions of them? If it does work then they have succeeded in hoodwinking those people - a tactic of the devil, I'm pretty sure.

Don't buy into the age of political correctness friend.
All Christians molest little boys. I see it everywhere. Every single Christina takes little boys into their office and molests them. They are also all in the KKK, its crazy. Every single Christian in the world is a hate filled neo-nazi.

see how political correctness works?

there is zero muslim outrage translation: you personally have not heard muslim outrage

Do they really think a cartoon will change people's perceptions of them? they are kinda trying to change theyre own perception and view about what a role model Muslim should be/should not be. i.e.: should not be Bin Laden/Saddam

TheConcretekid
08-26-2009, 09:56 PM
Found some images of muslim superheroes

Anything you can do, I can do better.

http://www.watchingamerica.com/images/bush-terrorist.jpg
I can do anything better than you.
http://ihatehate.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/bush-as-hitler.jpg

Vizion
08-26-2009, 10:09 PM
__________________
I noticed you avoided the first part of my question. Little trouble coming up with a witty retory for that eh :laugh:

TheConcretekid
08-26-2009, 10:26 PM
I noticed you avoided the first part of my question. Little trouble coming up with a witty retory for that eh :laugh:

see my political correctness/you personally haven't seen it quote

Crisco
08-26-2009, 10:32 PM
Found some images of muslim superheroes

http://i26.tinypic.com/6sf78h.jpg
http://open.salon.com/files/characters-from-the-99-is-0011247053007.jpg

The one in the red is hot. I'm surprised they let a muslim super woman look that risque

Vizion
08-26-2009, 11:33 PM
translation: you personally have not heard muslim outrage
Provide ONE example of muslims protesting muslim extremists who have committed terroristic acts.

they are kinda trying to change theyre own perception and view about what a role model Muslim should be/should not be. i.e.: should not be Bin Laden/SaddamI heard a pyschologist once say that the best predictor of future behavior, is past behavior. If this is the case where do you draw this confidence in their "change" from?

Buzzard
08-26-2009, 11:49 PM
Provide ONE example of muslims protesting muslim extremists who have committed terroristic acts.

I heard a pyschologist once say that the best predictor of future behavior, is past behavior. If this is the case where do you draw this confidence in their "change" from?

The Muslims I work with and have worked with expressed outrage with the attacks on 9/11. I have witnessed many of them ask me not to judge them as if the whole Muslim religion is full of fundamental radicals. Not one of them said that what happened represented them or their views. Is this first hand example good enough for you?

Should we use past examples of Christian violence and say that all Christians are violent because of past examples?

Neezar
08-27-2009, 12:08 AM
The Muslims I work with and have worked with expressed outrage with the attacks on 9/11. I have witnessed many of them ask me not to judge them as if the whole Muslim religion is full of fundamental radicals. Not one of them said that what happened represented them or their views. Is this first hand example good enough for you?

Should we use past examples of Christian violence and say that all Christians are violent because of past examples?

Are they American Muslims? Or Muslims that are actually from over there and are here working?

TheConcretekid
08-27-2009, 12:11 AM
Provide ONE example of muslims protesting muslim extremists who have committed terroristic acts.
I went to the University of Pittsburgh, and around campus I witnessed many groups, debates, meetings, seminars, Q&A sessions, etc. focused on this exact topic. Similar seminars can be found on every major campus across the United States... so that's just one example.

Plus don't forget Obama's trip to Turkey to discuss this exact topic, we only saw him speaking in Turkey, but Turkey's leading religious and political officials addressed the entire Muslim world.

I heard a pyschologist once say that the best predictor of future behavior, is past behavior. If this is the case where do you draw this confidence in their "change" from?
I was a Mechanical Engineering student and did a study abroad in Istanbul to study Earthquake Engineering. This city is about 95% Muslim (as well as the rest of Turkey) and is located in the middle east (fun fact: Istanbul is the only city in the world located in 2 continents) but is very much a European city.

After Ataturk took over in the 1920s, he declared Turkey to be a secular republic (much like the US) and now less than 90 years later Turkey is a perfectly peaceful democracy (minus the battles they have on their Iraqi boarder, where they fight the same insurgents our troops are fighting) This is why Obama made a trip to Turkey, it can serve as a blueprint for the rest of the middle east.

And countries like India and Sri Lanka, who also have a large Muslim population, are also industrious and peaceful nations. So the middle east is flanked by countries that are embarrassing the 21st century, diplomacy and 'change'.

Vizion
08-27-2009, 12:11 AM
So, you're saying your confidence in islam being a religion of peace is derived from a few muslims you know? Don't get me wrong, there are good muslims who do not wish to abide by these things, got it.

However, where is it in the Koran where it says that muslims are obligated to decieve the infidels? Do you know that verse? According to this doctrine, muslim believers may in certain circumstances openly deceive infidels by feigning friendship or goodwill, even a show of apostasy, so long as their heart is secure in its faith. I believe its Koran "Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense".

(now you will counter by taking another jab at Christianity)

Tyburn
08-27-2009, 12:16 AM
Are they American Muslims? Or Muslims that are actually from over there and are here working?
I had one.

She was an old lady who lived in Bradford, I was at University, and September 11th attacks had just happened. A lot of Bradfordian Islamists still have close family out in those countries. The Women were petrified that the Students were going to hurt them because of what happened with the other islamists on the planes.

They would run and hide in their homes everytime a group of students passed. Anyway, I had one of them burst into tears and beg me not to hurt her or think that she was one of them (by them I mean extremeists) now granted, she was female, and granted, she must have been like 80 odd...but they all got really frightened.

I was still in University when the war in Iraq started...that was different. They werent scared then, because they knew popular opinion wasnt for the War even amoung the students and non muslims....but with 9/11 they were really frightened.

I bet a few of the really old ones died of fright...ive never seen anything like it. They WAIL Denise! its harrowing, and its unpleasent to behold. :unsure-1:

Vizion
08-27-2009, 12:19 AM
I went to the University of Pittsburgh School, and around campus I witnessed many groups, debates, meetings, seminars, Q&A sessions, etc. focused on this exact topic. Similar seminars can be found on every major campus across the United States... so that's just one example. Where in the media do you see muslims protesting extremist muslims?

And countries like India and Sri Lanka, who also have a large Muslim population, are also industrious and peaceful nations. So the middle east is flanked by countries that are embarrassing the 21st century, diplomacy and 'change'. Not sure the middleast cares if they are embarrassing anybody tho.

TheConcretekid
08-27-2009, 12:33 AM
So, you're saying your confidence in islam being a religion of peace is derived from a few muslims you know?

to be fair, you did ask for one example haha

TheConcretekid
08-27-2009, 12:39 AM
Not sure the middleast cares if they are embarrassing anybody tho.

oops! embracing* the 21st century
boy that was... embarrassing

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 01:04 AM
The Muslims I work with and have worked with expressed outrage with the attacks on 9/11. I have witnessed many of them ask me not to judge them as if the whole Muslim religion is full of fundamental radicals. Not one of them said that what happened represented them or their views. Is this first hand example good enough for you?

Should we use past examples of Christian violence and say that all Christians are violent because of past examples?

Buzzard, have you ever considered that your co-workers might be practicing "al-Taqiyya"? When this issue has been studied with survey data, shockingly high levels of support for terrorism among Muslims has been documented; even Western Muslims. For example, here is a table from a survery by Pew showing support for suicide bombings:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/Supportforsuicidebombingbyage.jpg

TheConcretekid
08-27-2009, 01:18 AM
Where in the media do you see muslims protesting extremist muslims?



Plus don't forget Obama's trip to Turkey to discuss this exact topic, we only saw him speaking in Turkey, but Turkey's leading religious and political officials addressed the entire Muslim world.

/

Buzzard
08-27-2009, 01:52 AM
Buzzard, have you ever considered that your co-workers might be practicing "al-Taqiyya"?
If you are ok with my using wikipedia for the definition, I would think no they weren't practicing that because it stated:

Within the Shia theological framework,[1] the concept of Taqiyya (تقية - 'fear, guard against', also taghiyeh)[2] refers to a dispensation allowing believers to conceal their faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion.[3]

The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "dissimulation." [4]

It then goes on to say:

An eminent Shia authority, Ayatollah Sistani describes the concept of Taqiyya as follows: "1)Taqiyah is done for safety reasons. For example, a person fears that he might be killed or harmed, if he does not observe Taqiyah. In this case, it is obligatory to observe Taqiyah.
2) Reconciliatory Taqiyah. This type of Taqiyah is done when a person intends to reconcile with the other side or when he intends to soften their hearts. This kind of Taqiyah is permissible but not obligatory.
3) Sometimes, Taqiyah may cause a more important obligation to be lost or missed, if so it is forbidden. For example, when I know that silence would cause oppression and infidelity to spread and will make people go astray, in such a situation it is not permissible to be silent and to dissimulate.
4) Sometimes, Taqiyah may lead to the death of an innocent person. If so, it is not permissible. It is therefore haram (forbidden) to kill a human being to save your own life.[5]"

The Taqiyah doctrine is based on the following verse from Qur'an 3:28: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them". Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".

1. Since I was never in power to hurt them or their families, it couldn't be done for safety reasons.

2. I don't see 2 as a factor because we weren't in any type of bad relationship, so no need to reconcile.

3. I don't see this as the case.

4. I don't see this as the case.


When this issue has been studied with survey data, shockingly high levels of support for terrorism among Muslims has been documented; even Western Muslims. For example, here is a table from a survery by Pew showing support for suicide bombings:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/Supportforsuicidebombingbyage.jpg

Your stats page shows shows an average of 78% of American Muslims don't think it is ever justified.

If I play by your game interpretation, should I think that Christians support the murder of abortionists because a Christian man murdered Dr. George Tiller in a church? I have read many posts from professed Christians who have supported his murderer and are glad he was murdered. Should I assume all Christians are like that?

I'd rather think not. If I'm wrong, kindly let me know please.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 02:14 AM
All Christians molest little boys. I see it everywhere. Every single Christina takes little boys into their office and molests them. They are also all in the KKK, its crazy. Every single Christian in the world is a hate filled neo-nazi.

see how political correctness works?

translation: you personally have not heard muslim outrage

they are kinda trying to change theyre own perception and view about what a role model Muslim should be/should not be. i.e.: should not be Bin Laden/Saddam

I don't think you will get an argument from anyone that there are not evil people in all nations, peoples and religions. However, I don't know of any Christian scripture which supports child molestation. The Islamic prophet, Muhammad, married a girl of age 6, and consumated the marriage when she was age 9. Muslims consider Muhammad to be Allah's prophet and the perfect example. In the case you mentioned, a Christian committing a molestation would be acting contrary to their religion. If a Muslim married a 9-year-old and had sex with her, he would just be performing an action performed by his prophet. Additionally, in the Muslim Paradise, not only are there 72 virgins (houris) but there are young boys, "as fresh as pearls", for the Muslim to enjoy. Pederasty exists in their Paradise. Pederasty might be practiced in secret by some sinning Catholic priests, but I would bet 100% of Catholics think that it is wrong and condemn it. In the Muslim Paradise there is pederasty; in Christian Heaven, sin, including pederasty, does not exist.
As far as I know, the KKK never had renowned theologians as members. Islam, on the other hand, authorizes an entire system of religiously-sanctioned oppression towards minorities, the dhimmis. Dhimmis must even pay a religiously-sanctioned tax of obeisance, the jizya. Christians can disobey the words of Jesus and commit oppression, but if they do they are being disobedient to Jesus. Muslims, on the other hand, are following their religion if they oppress minorities and force them to pay a tax.
As far as Muslim outrage, I can produce more surveys showing significant support among Muslims for terroristic acts and the imposition of Sharia.

Buzzard
08-27-2009, 02:17 AM
Are they American Muslims? Or Muslims that are actually from over there and are here working?

I meant to answer this in the prior post. Do you consider those born abroad but have taken and passed the citizenship tests to be American Muslims? I would split them into 3 categories.
1. Born here.
2. Moved here became citizens.
3. Moved here and have visas.

I believe some to fall into each category. I would say though that 80 - 90% of them weren't born here in the U.S.A.

I've really never heard an ill word come out of their mouths. I can't say the same though about others I work with and the comments directed towards them.

mscomc
08-27-2009, 02:27 AM
Where in the media do you see muslims protesting extremist muslims?



I cant remember if it was you (forgive me if i am wrong), but didnt someone here post a video of a muslim man trying to call into that radio talk hosts show (his name is boontz or something) and that guy was trying to say islam is not a violent religion, to the best of my knowledge, that guy did say around 3:30 into it, how he was outraged at the atrocities of extremist muslims (watch the video again). Is that not a form of media? it must be since you listen to it.

There is another thing you have to understand. Many people often wonder, why there are not many iraqi people, or afghans going on the air to protest al-qaeda and the taliban. Part of it could be fear of persecution or death. I think one thing that gets lost in translation is that extremist muslims, dont just hate the west, or the jews etc, But they also HATE other muslims.... yes thats right, the good muslims (the normal, job going, family having muslim) who refuse to conform to an extremist lifestyle. We see this on the news everyday.....extremists send suicide bombers to kill iraqi police officers who are muslims like them, they kill normal women and children, who are muslim like them.

Also, at my university there is a large population of muslims, i would say easily 2000 of all different origin: Bosnian, albanian, turkish, indian, pakistani, syrian, indonesia, russian, etc etc etc. I have obviously not met them all, but the ones i do know all condemn the terrible things they see on the news.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 02:40 AM
Your stats page shows shows an average of 78% of American Muslims don't think it is ever justified.

If I play by your game interpretation, should I think that Christians support the murder of abortionists because a Christian man murdered Dr. George Tiller in a church? I have read many posts from professed Christians who have supported his murderer and are glad he was murdered. Should I assume all Christians are like that?

I'd rather think not. If I'm wrong, kindly let me know please.

Taqiyya is deception used to promulgate the Muslim religion. So, for example, if you were a co-worker of one of the British Muslim Physicians that tried to blow up the airport in Scotland, you would have sworn (as did co-workers in news reports following the incident) that the physician was not a radical. Similarly the coworkers of the British Muslims that bombed the trains and bus, told newspapers that the men showed no sign of being radicals. They practiced taqiyya. As for your co-workers, if they are obedient Muslims, they do not consider you a friend:

Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide."

Qur'an (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah..."

Qur'an (3:118) - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."

Qur'an (9:23) - "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers"

So, you think it is perfectlly alright for 42% of young, French Muslims to approve of Suicide Bombings against non-Muslim civilians? If you are open to convincing, I will prepare multiple posts for you documenting these studies.

As far as Tiller's killer, I seem to remember all the major pro-life organizations issuing press releases condemning the killing.

Buzzard
08-27-2009, 02:48 AM
I don't think you will get an argument from anyone that there are not evil people in all nations, peoples and religions. However, I don't know of any Christian scripture which supports child molestation. The Islamic prophet, Muhammad, married a girl of age 6, and consumated the marriage when she was age 9. Muslims consider Muhammad to be Allah's prophet and the perfect example. In the case you mentioned, a Christian committing a molestation would be acting contrary to their religion. If a Muslim married a 9-year-old and had sex with her, he would just be performing an action performed by his prophet. Additionally, in the Muslim Paradise, not only are there 72 virgins (houris) but there are young boys, "as fresh as pearls", for the Muslim to enjoy. Pederasty exists in their Paradise. Pederasty might be practiced in secret by some sinning Catholic priests, but I would bet 100% of Catholics think that it is wrong and condemn it. In the Muslim Paradise there is pederasty; in Christian Heaven, sin, including pederasty, does not exist.
As far as I know, the KKK never had renowned theologians as members. Islam, on the other hand, authorizes an entire system of religiously-sanctioned oppression towards minorities, the dhimmis. Dhimmis must even pay a religiously-sanctioned tax of obeisance, the jizya. Christians can disobey the words of Jesus and commit oppression, but if they do they are being disobedient to Jesus. Muslims, on the other hand, are following their religion if they oppress minorities and force them to pay a tax.
As far as Muslim outrage, I can produce more surveys showing significant support among Muslims for terroristic acts and the imposition of Sharia.


What was the youngest marriage that was written about in the bible? I may not recall correctly, but don't they talk about marriage with younger people? What age would this be. Again, if I am wrong, kindly let me know. I'm not sure where to find this information in my bible atm.

I found a reference which pointed me to Ezekiel 16:4-14 and read it online.

Thanks for any information.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 03:04 AM
What was the youngest marriage that was written about in the bible? I may not recall correctly, but don't they talk about marriage with younger people? What age would this be. Again, if I am wrong, kindly let me know. I'm not sure where to find this information in my bible atm.

I found a reference which pointed me to Ezekiel 16:4-14 and read it online.

Thanks for any information.

Please comment on Muhammad's marriage to a 6-year-old and its consummation at age 9 (way before puberty) (Please see post #79, in which an undercover recording catches a Muslim Imam saying, “The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammad practiced it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage.”

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 03:14 AM
There have been several posts in this thread about anecdotal stories of Muslim co-workers or telephone callers condemning terrorism. I think that is great. However, it is anecdotal. I will post links when I have time giving the results of surveys of Muslim opinion. Surveys will give a better picture than anecdotes.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 03:21 AM
In a Dec. 2001 - January 2002 survey of 9,924 Muslims in 9 countries, performed by Gallup, 61% thought the 9/11 attack was not carried out by Arabs (I'm sure if a follow-up question was asked, 100% of those surveyed would blame it on the Jews). Only 67% thought that the 9/11 attacks were "wrong". 9% thought that the 9/11 attacks were "justified".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1843838.stm#map

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 03:28 AM
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war

Here is a Pew Study from 2004:

Osama bin Laden, however, is viewed favorably by large percentages in Pakistan (65%), Jordan (55%) and Morocco (45%). Even in Turkey, where bin Laden is highly unpopular, as many as 31% say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable.

The survey finds, however, that Christians get much lower ratings in predominantly Muslim countries than do Muslims in mostly Christian countries. Majorities in Morocco (73%), Pakistan (62%) and Turkey (52%) express negative views of Christians.

http://people-press.org/reports/images/206-2.gif

Jonlion
08-27-2009, 03:29 AM
So, you're saying your confidence in islam being a religion of peace is derived from a few muslims you know? Don't get me wrong, there are good muslims who do not wish to abide by these things, got it.

However, where is it in the Koran where it says that muslims are obligated to decieve the infidels? Do you know that verse? According to this doctrine, muslim believers may in certain circumstances openly deceive infidels by feigning friendship or goodwill, even a show of apostasy, so long as their heart is secure in its faith. I believe its Koran "Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense".

(now you will counter by taking another jab at Christianity)


Just as a side note the Koran also states that they must respect "people of the book" and that includes the Torah and the Bible.

I mean our bible perhaps is not as aggressive still makes warning against unbelievers and to be careful.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 03:40 AM
Here are some results from a 2/09 World Public Opinion Survey:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/support_for-civilian-attacks-among-Muslims.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_al-qaeda_attacks.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_osama_bin_laden.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-iraq.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-persian-gulf.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-afghanistan.jpg

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 03:56 AM
What was the youngest marriage that was written about in the bible? I may not recall correctly, but don't they talk about marriage with younger people? What age would this be. Again, if I am wrong, kindly let me know. I'm not sure where to find this information in my bible atm.

I found a reference which pointed me to Ezekiel 16:4-14 and read it online.

Thanks for any information.

It is not mentioned. Most scholars say that marriage was much younger than today, but always after puberty. The average life span was likely similar to third world countries of today, about 40. (Please see post #79 in which an undercover recording documents a Muslim Imam saying, “The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammad practiced it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage.”)

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 04:01 AM
Just as a side note the Koran also states that they must respect "people of the book" and that includes the Torah and the Bible.

I mean our bible perhaps is not as aggressive still makes warning against unbelievers and to be careful.

"People of the Book" are allowed to be "dhimmis", religiously-sanctioned second-class citizens. Instead of being outright murdered like Buddhists, they are allowed to live, but have to submit to the jizya and accept the rules of dhimmitude. That doesn't sound very good to me.

mscomc
08-27-2009, 04:44 AM
Here are some results from a 2/09 World Public Opinion Survey:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/support_for-civilian-attacks-among-Muslims.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_al-qaeda_attacks.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_osama_bin_laden.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-iraq.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-persian-gulf.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-afghanistan.jpg

If I am reading your stats correctly:

From your first figure, it appears as though the majority of muslim countries dont favour attacks on civillians in the U.S (thats a good thing no?)...while only a small percentage seem to approve of such attacks. The only ones that stick out, are the palestinians...and tahts not a surprise to me, as im sure there is a large population that hate the U.S for aiding Israsel.

From your second figure(on al-queda) it appears as though, on average, 15% of the population favor attacks on the U.S, while the majority dont support attacks, but they dont like the U.S (big whoopies, who cares if they dont like you, is the U.S trying to win a popularity contest?).

Your third figure however is a little more alarming: I can certainly imagine countries in the middle east and pakistan/afghanistan approving bin-laden, but the at the same time, these people see him as a hero willing to protect them againt soldiers who bomb them, kill their people, possibly rape their women etc etc etc (not that im saying thats all true, but tahts how they probably feel)

The same goes for your fourth figure...the U.S does not have a good international reputation right now, espsecially in the middle east, of course they are going to be in favour of killinig Troops (not civillians, but troops as indicated by figure 1)

Read above for the fifth figure

and same for the 6th figure

I commend you for looking for this data, as im sure it did take some work. But in a world of over 1 billion muslims, i dont beleive that choosing what seems to be on average 7 countries to be a representative sample. Plus, you have chosen countries samples that in many cases are ravaged by war, poverty and other problems....they already live in a backwards society, of course they are gonna sound nuts. Where is the data, from muslims living in the U.S? In Europe ? In Russia? What about all the muslims living in other affulent and rich G8 countries? I guarantee their will poll numbers much more appealing than the ones you have shown.

Furthermore, no dissrespect intended...but is the "world puplic oppinion" credible? Are they endorsed by any major political periodical , do they have any kind of support form the: the U.S government, the UN, anything? How often are they used as references in major political or historical articles?

mscomc
08-27-2009, 04:44 AM
Here are some results from a 2/09 World Public Opinion Survey:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/support_for-civilian-attacks-among-Muslims.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_al-qaeda_attacks.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_osama_bin_laden.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-iraq.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-persian-gulf.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/public_opinion_attacking_US-troops-afghanistan.jpg

If I am reading your stats correctly:

From your first figure, it appears as though the majority of muslim countries dont favour attacks on civillians in the U.S (thats a good thing no?)...while only a small percentage seem to approve of such attacks. The only ones that stick out, are the palestinians...and tahts not a surprise to me, as im sure there is a large population that hate the U.S for aiding Israsel.

From your second figure(on al-queda) it appears as though, on average, 15% of the population favor attacks on the U.S, while the majority dont support attacks, but they dont like the U.S (big whoopies, who cares if they dont like you, is the U.S trying to win a popularity contest?).

Your third figure however is a little more alarming: I can certainly imagine countries in the middle east and pakistan/afghanistan approving bin-laden, but the at the same time, these people see him as a hero willing to protect them againt soldiers who bomb them, kill their people, possibly rape their women etc etc etc (not that im saying thats all true, but tahts how they probably feel)

The same goes for your fourth figure...the U.S does not have a good international reputation right now, espsecially in the middle east, of course they are going to be in favour of killinig Troops (not civillians, but troops as indicated by figure 1)

Read above for the fifth figure

and same for the 6th figure

I commend you for looking for this data, as im sure it did take some work. But in a world of over 1 billion muslims, i dont beleive that choosing what seems to be on average 7 countries to be a representative sample. Plus, you have chosen countries samples that in many cases are ravaged by war, poverty and other problems....they already live in a backwards society, of course they are gonna sound nuts. Where is the data, from muslims living in the U.S? In Europe ? In Russia? What about all the muslims living in other affulent and rich G8 countries? I guarantee their will poll numbers much more appealing than the ones you have shown.

Furthermore, no dissrespect intended...but is the "world puplic oppinion" credible? Are they endorsed by any major political periodical , do they have any kind of support form the: the U.S government, the UN, anything? How often are they used as references in major political or historical articles?

Jonlion
08-27-2009, 04:48 AM
"People of the Book" are allowed to be "dhimmis", religiously-sanctioned second-class citizens. Instead of being outright murdered like Buddhists, they are allowed to live, but have to submit to the jizya and accept the rules of dhimmitude. That doesn't sound very good to me.


Im not sure on this matter, id have to check but i do know a lot of respectful, hard working muslims.

Yeah they pray to the wrong God but it doesnt mean they are all terrorists trying to destroy the world.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 05:22 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml

So how prevalent are such radical views among British Muslims?

Some answers are provided by the most comprehensive survey to date of Muslim opinion in Britain. The results from NOP Research, broadcast by Channel 4-TV on August 7, are startling.

Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments. This figure is more than twice as high as those who say it was not a conspiracy. Tragically, almost one in four British Muslims believe that last year's 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror.

When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."

Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.

The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not.

Also concerning freedom of speech, as the NOP Research survey reports, "hardcore Islamists" constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population. A slightly more moderate group is composed of "staunch defenders of Islam." This second group comprises 29 percent of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 05:49 AM
Here is a good example of taqiyya. A television station in Britain infiltrated a mosque with a hidden camera and audio recording equipment. To the non-Muslim public, the mosque tried to appear moderate and mainstream; however, the recordings showed what they really preach when the doors are closed and non-Muslims are not around.

Follow the link to watch the footage for yourself:http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-19/episode-1

Here is a wikipedia summary of some of what was heard on the tapes:

* Dr. Ijaz Mian on the subject of non-Muslim laws: “You cannot accept the rule of the kaffir [non-Muslim]…[w]e have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others.”
* Abu Usamah saying of apostates: “If the imam wants to crucify him he should crucify him. The person is put up on the wood and he's left there to bleed to death for three days.”
* Abu Usamah speaking on the deficiency of women's minds: “Allah has created the woman, even if she gets a PhD, deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man.”
* Praises the killer of a British soldier serving in Afghanistan, stating "The hero of Islam is the one who separated his head from his shoulders.”
* Abdullah el-Faisal: “You have to bomb the Indian businesses, and as for the Jews you kill them physically.”
* Advocates violent Jihad against the non-Muslims and predicting that an army of Muslims will arise against the non-Muslims in England.
* Dr Bilal Philips on marriage with girls before puberty: “The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage.”
* Condemns Muslim integration into British society.
* Calls for the overthrow of the British government and democracy. “[T]hey will fight in the cause of Allah. I encourage all of you to be from amongst them, to begin to cultivate ourselves for the time that is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength, and when that happens, people won’t get killed – unjustly.”
* Dr. Mian: “You are in a situation in which you have to live like a state within a state, until you take over.”
* Al Jibali: “By the age of ten, it becomes an obligation on us to force her to wear hijab, and if she doesn’t wear hijab, we hit her.”
* Dr. Mian praised the Saudi religious police practice of imprisoning people who do not pray: “They send the police, and they say, well, if you don’t come for prayer, close your shop, we will arrest you But if you don’t, then we have to bring the punishment on you, you will be killed, and nobody will pray on you.”
* Abu Usamah saying that homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off a cliff, stating “throw [the homosexual] off the mountain.”

Buzzard
08-27-2009, 06:03 AM
Please comment on Muhammad's marriage to a 6-year-old and its consummation at age 9 (way before puberty)

I read something about that on https://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85887&start=75 from a poster named Yahya Snow who makes an argument about the marriage in question and the age of the consummation being incorrect in the " 6-year-old and its consummation at age 9." This forum requires a membership to read and post there, and I just joined today to get some insight on it.

Not having studied this subject, I can't make an informed statement on it in regards to the age issue. If it is as you say it is, I think it wrong. I didn't really completely read his post as it is quite long, but skimmed it in order to get a general understanding. To summarize it briefly, the poster explained that the person was past puberty when the marriage was consummated.

Thanks for taking the time to post your information. I tend to agree with que's responses to those stats. I could be wrong, and if I have reason to change my beliefs about them, I will surely post my reasons.

From this same post I linked to, this post claims Roughly 100 years ago in the 1880 the age of consent was as low as 7 in Delaware, while many other states in America were at 10 years old, including Alabama, California and Florida. Russia was at 10 while Scotland was at 12 and England 13.(16) therefore the Christian missionaries must believe EVERYBODY in the past to be paedophiles or advocates of paedophilia.

Since I have not researched any of this yet, I can't make an informed accurate opinion whether this was true or not. If it is true, and there is truth to the "married at 6, consummated at 9" then I would hold each with equal disdain.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 06:08 AM
Here is a link to Freedom House and a map of the world, classifying countries as "free" (green), "partly free" (yellow), or "not free" (blue). If you can find a "free" Muslim-majority country please point it out. It can kind of be like a "Where's Waldo?" game (except in this case, the artist didn't bother drawing Waldo):

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=289

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 06:28 AM
I read something about that on https://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85887&start=75 from a poster named Yahya Snow who makes an argument about the marriage in question and the age of the consummation being incorrect in the " 6-year-old and its consummation at age 9." This forum requires a membership to read and post there, and I just joined today to get some insight on it.

Not having studied this subject, I can't make an informed statement on it in regards to the age issue. If it is as you say it is, I think it wrong. I didn't really completely read his post as it is quite long, but skimmed it in order to get a general understanding. To summarize it briefly, the poster explained that the person was past puberty when the marriage was consummated.

Thanks for taking the time to post your information. I tend to agree with que's responses to those stats. I could be wrong, and if I have reason to change my beliefs about them, I will surely post my reasons.

From this same post I linked to, this post claims

Since I have not researched any of this yet, I can't make an informed accurate opinion whether this was true or not. If it is true, and there is truth to the "married at 6, consummated at 9" then I would hold each with equal disdain.

Please see post #79 in which a Muslim Imam, caught on undercover recording states, “The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage.” Why is the mosque teaching about marriage "prior to puberty" and defending it based on Mohammad's example? They believe it happened and because of that use it to justify their behavior.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 06:37 AM
I read something about that on https://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85887&start=75 from a poster named Yahya Snow who makes an argument about the marriage in question and the age of the consummation being incorrect in the " 6-year-old and its consummation at age 9." This forum requires a membership to read and post there, and I just joined today to get some insight on it.

Not having studied this subject, I can't make an informed statement on it in regards to the age issue. If it is as you say it is, I think it wrong. I didn't really completely read his post as it is quite long, but skimmed it in order to get a general understanding. To summarize it briefly, the poster explained that the person was past puberty when the marriage was consummated.

Thanks for taking the time to post your information. I tend to agree with que's responses to those stats. I could be wrong, and if I have reason to change my beliefs about them, I will surely post my reasons.

From this same post I linked to, this post claims

Since I have not researched any of this yet, I can't make an informed accurate opinion whether this was true or not. If it is true, and there is truth to the "married at 6, consummated at 9" then I would hold each with equal disdain.

Sorry, I don't happen to carry around a password with me to the Richard Dawkins website. Perhaps you can ask him how he liked Oxford Professor Alister McGraith's The Dawkin's Delusion?

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 06:52 AM
I read something about that on https://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85887&start=75 from a poster named Yahya Snow who makes an argument about the marriage in question and the age of the consummation being incorrect in the " 6-year-old and its consummation at age 9." This forum requires a membership to read and post there, and I just joined today to get some insight on it.

Not having studied this subject, I can't make an informed statement on it in regards to the age issue. If it is as you say it is, I think it wrong. I didn't really completely read his post as it is quite long, but skimmed it in order to get a general understanding. To summarize it briefly, the poster explained that the person was past puberty when the marriage was consummated.

Thanks for taking the time to post your information. I tend to agree with que's responses to those stats. I could be wrong, and if I have reason to change my beliefs about them, I will surely post my reasons.

From this same post I linked to, this post claims

Since I have not researched any of this yet, I can't make an informed accurate opinion whether this was true or not. If it is true, and there is truth to the "married at 6, consummated at 9" then I would hold each with equal disdain.

Muhammad is not just any man in the Muslim religion. He is the ultimate Prophet and Muslims look to him for guidance in their life and as a source of truth. You don't seem to admit that there is a difference between bad, evil, unwise, etc. actions of a person who happens to be of a particular religious background and someone who is motivated by the precepts of his religion to perform or justify his actions. In addition, when someone does perform a bad action based upon his religious principals you don't seem willing to weigh whether that person's interpretation is justified based on their Scripture or whether they are an oddball that is an aberration within their wider religious community. I find it ironic that someone who claims that Muslims are peaceful (which I will stipulate that a large minority if not a majority are) based upon there interaction with a few co-workers or fellow students (as if a radical will always boldly proclaim his aims in a post-9/11 world), and yet nitpick studies and surveys that include thousands of participants.

Buzzard
08-27-2009, 07:02 AM
Please see post #79 in which a Muslim Imam, caught on undercover recording states, “The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage.” Why is the mosque teaching about marriage "prior to puberty" and defending it based on Mohammad's example? They believe it happened and because of that use it to justify their behavior.

Do you know what the rules he outlined stated? From what you posted I can't say what was stated in regards the rules. Is it possible that the rules he stated were that it wasn't permissible to to consummate the marriage prior to puberty? Do you have something that shows what Mohammed said in regards to this? Please understand that I am not saying this with a cynical heart, but actually don't know what his position is in regard to this.

Sorry, I don't happen to carry around a password with me to the Richard Dawkins website. Perhaps you can ask him how he liked Oxford Professor Alister McGraith's The Dawkin's Delusion?

I just got a password to that site so I could read what was posted in regard to the issue. All you need is an email account and a password. Why don't you get one so you can post the question yourself? It takes less than a minute, and then you too could read the post in question and tell me your take on it.

Have a good night, it's getting late here.


EDIT:

Muhammad is not just any man in the Muslim religion. He is the ultimate Prophet and Muslims look to him for guidance in their life and as a source of truth. You don't seem to admit that there is a difference between bad, evil, unwise, etc. actions of a person who happens to be of a particular religious background and someone who is motivated by the precepts of his religion to perform or justify his actions.Was that asked of me? I sure didn't see it if it was In addition, when someone does perform a bad action based upon his religious principals you don't seem willing to weigh whether that person's interpretation is justified based on their Scripture or whether they are an oddball that is an aberration within their wider religious community. Again, that wasn't part of what was asked of me. I did tell you that I didn't have knowledge of their holy book and didn't want to make an uninformed opinion. I find it ironic that someone who claims that Muslims are peaceful (which I will stipulate that a large minority if not a majority are) based upon there interaction with a few co-workers or fellow students (as if a radical will always boldly proclaim his aims in a post-9/11 world), and yet nitpick studies and surveys that include thousands of participants.I find it strange that you would infer that I claimed that all Muslims are peaceful, and when I spoke of the Muslims that I know who were against the actions of the radicals you pooh pooh it and won't accept it.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 07:39 AM
I'm about ready to wrap it up for the night. I could keep posting these surveys but I don't think it is going to do any good to a mind that is closed. How about answering a few questions to see if you can even be persuaded? Do you admit to any difference among religions as to their propensity to attack their neighbor - in other words, are Quakers as belligerent as Sunni Muslims? Will you even admit to that?
What percentage of a population advocating violence do you consider significant? 10%? 20%? Does it have to be a clear majority like 85% in order for you to admit that it is a problem?
Do you recognize any distinctions between conduct, or is any conduct excusable to you because someone else did something wrong also?
If Christians are not allowed to criticize Islam because some Christians have committed bad acts at some point in history, and peaceful Muslims are afraid to push for reform because of fear of violence, who is going to confront Islamic terror? There seems to be a trend to ignore current atrocities by mentioning a different bad act somewhere else on the planet that happened in another century or even another millenium.

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 07:54 AM
Do you know what the rules he outlined stated? From what you posted I can't say what was stated in regards the rules. Is it possible that the rules he stated were that it wasn't permissible to to consummate the marriage prior to puberty? Do you have something that shows what Mohammed said in regards to this? Please understand that I am not saying this with a cynical heart, but actually don't know what his position is in regard to this.



I just got a password to that site so I could read what was posted in regard to the issue. All you need is an email account and a password. Why don't you get one so you can post the question yourself? It takes less than a minute, and then you too could read the post in question and tell me your take on it.

Have a good night, it's getting late here.


EDIT:

To be fair to you, I was responding to comments made by 3 posters, what you said and what another poster said could have gotten blended in my mind. I was cruising along posting links and all of the sudden there was a response instead of my post. I probably should have used the quote button to clarify what I was responding to. I didn't scroll back to do that. My fault.:ashamed:

Play The Man
08-27-2009, 08:12 AM
Do you know what the rules he outlined stated? From what you posted I can't say what was stated in regards the rules. Is it possible that the rules he stated were that it wasn't permissible to to consummate the marriage prior to puberty? Do you have something that shows what Mohammed said in regards to this? Please understand that I am not saying this with a cynical heart, but actually don't know what his position is in regard to this.



I just got a password to that site so I could read what was posted in regard to the issue. All you need is an email account and a password. Why don't you get one so you can post the question yourself? It takes less than a minute, and then you too could read the post in question and tell me your take on it.

Have a good night, it's getting late here.


EDIT:
To be honest, I wouldn't give Dawkin's website the traffic. Why would Dawkin's website have information about the marriages of Muhammad? Dawkin's is not a Muslim.

Buzzard
08-27-2009, 05:19 PM
To be fair to you, I was responding to comments made by 3 posters, what you said and what another poster said could have gotten blended in my mind. I was cruising along posting links and all of the sudden there was a response instead of my post. I probably should have used the quote button to clarify what I was responding to. I didn't scroll back to do that. My fault.:ashamed:

No problem, it's easy for things to get mixed up when reading and responding to multiple posts from multiple people.

To be honest, I wouldn't give Dawkin's website the traffic. Why would Dawkin's website have information about the marriages of Muhammad? Dawkin's is not a Muslim. No he is not, but the poster in question is.

Same reason Matt's site has a section for politics. It's a public forum where people can express their opinions on varying subjects. If the post in question wasn't so long I would have posted it in it's entirety, but didn't want to clog up the forum with a huge post which wasn't mine, hence the link to it.