PDA

View Full Version : Please explain!


DonnaMaria
07-24-2009, 01:07 AM
I've waited all day for someone else to start this thread!:laugh:

The President's speech last night, Health Care Reform..........?!?!?!?:blink:

So........I'm a teacher........and I LIKE my health insurance plan...........

so I will get to keep it? As long as my Board of Education keeps our plan?

People who have existing plans won't change? People without plans will be covered?:blink:

yes?

MattHughesRocks
07-24-2009, 01:50 AM
I didn't listen that closely however, it sounds like nothing changes. We, the tax payers,our health care stays the same. People that don't pay taxes, or even have jobs....we still pay for :blink: Maybe I missed something? :unsure-1:

Bonnie
07-24-2009, 06:28 AM
I've been listening to some of this tonight and it sounds like Obama is trying to make it sound like nothing will change for those who want to keep their own insurance, but others are saying that is not so. The people against this plan say private plans will not be able to compete with this low cost government plan. One lady put it really well, the two plans being offered (I guess Obama's and the Democrats which she read) are great for "healthy" people just not great for sick people. Obama is saying all these diseases and medical conditions (diabetes, cancer, heart and lung problems, etc.) are preventable. He's not taking into account genetics, diseases like MS, etc... that people have no control over. I just found out I have lung cancer. I have never smoked a day in my life. Their is cancer however on both sides of my family. So where would I fit into Obama's plan if he's successful in getting it passed. Plus, they say (as usual) there are other things tacked onto this so-called wonder health care plan besides the health care that is costing this trillions of $.

Like Nate and others are saying, beware of these so-called "freebies". It looks like we'd be paying for them by giving up our freedom to "choose" what we want. By the way, it looks like the president and congress have excluded themselves from this wonderful health care plan from what I've heard. If it's so great, why aren't they leading the pack starting with the President by actually using it themselves. :wink:

DonnaMaria
07-24-2009, 04:05 PM
oh wow..........:unsure-1:

well if he all about "prevention" then everyone in NJ will have to move to another state. We have horrible air and water pollution and every 20 minutes a child is diagnosed with Autism. :sad:

There is a theory that Autism is connected to pollution and other environmental factors. NJ and CA have the highest Autism rates in the entire US.

Bonnie I am so sorry to hear about your troubles!:sad: I will be praying for your recovery!

County Mike
07-24-2009, 05:09 PM
According to my mom (nurse) the high autism rate is caused by the vaccinations most kids are getting these days.

TexasRN
07-24-2009, 05:38 PM
According to my mom (nurse) the high autism rate is caused by the vaccinations most kids are getting these days.


This has been proven untrue.

From time to time, rumors circulate that thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative once used in several vaccines (and still used in some flu vaccine), could contribute to ASDs. However, valid scientific studies have shown there is no link. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Medical Association (AMA), the CDC, and the Institute of Medicine (IOM) agree that science does not support a link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism. For the IOM report, please go to http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3793/4705/4717.aspx (http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3793/4705/4717.aspx)


From: http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/autismparentfacts.htm


~Amy

Bonnie
07-24-2009, 07:19 PM
This has been proven untrue.

From time to time, rumors circulate that thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative once used in several vaccines (and still used in some flu vaccine), could contribute to ASDs. However, valid scientific studies have shown there is no link. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Medical Association (AMA), the CDC, and the Institute of Medicine (IOM) agree that science does not support a link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism. For the IOM report, please go to http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3793/4705/4717.aspx (http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3793/4705/4717.aspx)


From: http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/autismparentfacts.htm


~Amy

How do they explain a healthy normal child who gets vaccinated and then becomes autistic? This is what puzzles me. I think there must be something in certain people (in their genetic make-up) that predisposes them when given certain vaccines to autism. I just don't think they can "lump" every person together when they say there is no link whether to the thimerosal or something else within the vaccines that is reacting negatively to that person's body where the outcome is autism or some other disorder. They admit that the increase in autism "may" be due to certain factors and that they still do not know the cause of autism. So how can they 100% rule out that in certain individuals these vaccines might "trigger" something in their brains...

Look at what's happened to some young girls/women given the HPV vaccine. We've heard where some suffered paralysis and even death after given the vaccine while others had no such adverse side effects. One study shows that "all" young women between the ages of 18-26 should get this vaccine while the American Cancer Society says that not all young women between 18-26 need this vaccine. So who are you to believe?

All I'm saying is if I had a child who was walking and talking and interacting and then he got a vaccination and all that was reversed and he was then diagnosed as autistic, I would definitely have ?s about whether that vaccine played a part in what happened to my child. Why are some people allergic (in some cases fatally) to bee stings, penicilin, codeine or to peanut butter and others aren't?

Sorry, Amy, my thoughts on this aren't meant to be disrespectful to you or your views, but rather to question all these organizations claiming such a "blanket" statement regarding a link. They think there isn't a link, I think they just haven't found it yet. I've learned from my own personal medical experience that sometimes doctors try to fit all of us in the same cookie cutter mold that we all don't necessarily fit.

TexasRN
07-24-2009, 07:42 PM
How do they explain a healthy normal child who gets vaccinated and then becomes autistic? This is what puzzles me. I think there must be something in certain people (in their genetic make-up) that predisposes them when given certain vaccines to autism. I just don't think they can "lump" every person together when they say there is no link whether to the thimerosal or something else within the vaccines that is reacting negatively to that person's body where the outcome is autism or some other disorder. They admit that the increase in autism "may" be due to certain factors and that they still do not know the cause of autism. So how can they 100% rule out that in certain individuals these vaccines might "trigger" something in their brains...


Autism cannot be diagnosed before a certain age. The timing of the vaccine was changed slightly to see if there was a link to the vaccine. It was proven to be unrelated. It just happens that the developmental delays showed up at that time of the child's life after receiving the vaccine. Does that make sense or do I need to word it differently?

There is a genetic component to autistic disorders and probable environmental triggers as there are states with higher incidence of autism. I believe CA and NJ have the highest but that is right off the top of my head so I could be wrong about the Jersey babies.


~Amy

rearnakedchoke
07-24-2009, 07:45 PM
i am sure he is gonna base it off what some other countries are doing ... like here in canada, everyone has the access to healthcare as needed and it is in the taxes ... so if you break your arm, you go get a cast, no bill, if your company provides you with insurance, you get upgraded .. so instead of sharing a room with 1 or 3 other sick folks, you get a private or semi-private ... not all jobs have benefits, so it is good for those people ... and you don't hear of people coming out of the hospital with $100,000 bill from open-heart surgery ... it is definitely something that you take for granted ... when ever i go, there are people new in the country and they are so happy just to speak with a family doctor, have their heart beat listened too, it is really weird when i see it ...

Bonnie
07-24-2009, 08:20 PM
Autism cannot be diagnosed before a certain age. The timing of the vaccine was changed slightly to see if there was a link to the vaccine. It was proven to be unrelated. It just happens that the developmental delays showed up at that time of the child's life after receiving the vaccine. Does that make sense or do I need to word it differently?

There is a genetic component to autistic disorders and probable environmental triggers as there are states with higher incidence of autism. I believe CA and NJ have the highest but that is right off the top of my head so I could be wrong about the Jersey babies.


~Amy

No, you don't need to word it differently. I understand what you are saying.

TexasRN
07-24-2009, 10:05 PM
No, you don't need to word it differently. I understand what you are saying.


K. Sometimes I post something and then reread it and don't like how I said it. Autism sucks. Had a very good friend who had an autistic child. I wish all children could be healthy. My friend's little boy was the sweetest child. He also had some physical limitations because he had very poor muscle tone. He and I had an understanding and he let me hang out with him sometimes which is a big deal. His name was Elijah. I was there the day the OT (occupational therapist) lady at his school had him ride a special made bike to show his mama the first time. She cried and cried and cried. :cry: He was never supposed to even walk, let alone ride a bike.



~Amy

Tyburn
07-24-2009, 11:22 PM
Is Barack Obama trying to make Official, a National Health Service per chance :huh:

Incidently, as we are on the topic of Autism. I discovered a horrifying secret back in 2004.

Whilst I was setting up my Defence for Disciplinaries laid on me by Saint Paul's Cathedral, almost exactly 5 years ago to the day, I had to ask to see my Medical Records. Now these are mainly copies of the doctors notes and, most interestinglu of all, copies of letters sent by one doctor to another.

Now when I was quite young and exhibted self destructive cycles, I was taken to a child psychologist. I wasnt given any treatment, just a few ideals for how to cope with stuff. I assumed that was the end of it, when I came across a letter saying that the doctors and Child Psychologists had diagnosed what they believed was a mild form of Aspergers Syndrome...more to the point, in black and white "Suspected Diagnosis not revealed to Patient or Parents"

I've since changed so much I guess I just grew out of all the symptoms that they thought I might be exhibiting :blink:

See 16th July 2004 I was prosecuted by Major General John Milne on behalf of Canon Warner as a Member of Chapter.

I was Charged a second time July 26th 2004...on that date I was told that before the Trial I had to pass a medical examination on 30th July 2004....soooooo for that week I was checking my own medical records to prepare my defence. They couldnt gain access to my medical records without expressed writen permission BUT, if they asked, and I refused to sign them over, then they would use that as a sign of guilt....as it was they never asked...because they didnt want that sorta complication with a dissmissal that might involve them money, they just wanted an excuse for a second Trial...that was eventually held on August 18th 2004 (It was delayed due to the fact the bloody prosecutor went on Holiday...INFACT what he did was Charge me, go away the next day, and return the day before the trial. Dissapointing when he was my Line Manager LOL

Play The Man
07-25-2009, 04:54 AM
How do they explain a healthy normal child who gets vaccinated and then becomes autistic? This is what puzzles me.
One must always beware of falling into the post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this) fallacy, in which one event is asserted to be the cause of a later event simply by virtue of having happened earlier.

Bonnie, I have a little child and I would be devastated if she developed a medical problem like autism; however, I think some well-meaning people have sent parents on a "wild goose chase". The researcher that posited a link between autism and the MMR vaccine was recently charged with submitting fraudulent data:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece
THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition

The data for the efficacy of childhood immunizations is absolutely overwhelming. Immunizations (as well as improved nutrition, improved sanitation, and antibiotics) are one of the main reasons that the average life expectancy of Americans has gone up by 3 decades since the late 1800's. With the internet, it is possible for anyone to research the number of cases of a disease in the years before a vaccine was introduced vs. the number of cases in subsequent years. For some infections, the numbers dropped from hundreds of thousands of cases per year to less than a hundred. The graphs demonstrating the decline of cases of infection after the introduction of a vaccine show such a steep drop that it looks like a rock dropping from a cliff.

As TexasRN Amy mentioned, there is unanimity in the mainstream medical community that there is no definite evidence of a link. Autism needs more research funding. Scientists need to find the cause; however, the available evidence says it is not immunizations. I didn't want to cause controversy or belabor a point, but immunizations are so important I felt obligated to post.

Bonnie
07-25-2009, 05:20 AM
It's obvious "Play" that you and Amy know your stuff regarding this subject much more than I so I shall defer to you both. Thank you both for the links also. :)

Hughes_GOAT
07-28-2009, 10:15 AM
i agree Bonnie. vaccines are bad and do cause autism.

Play The Man
07-28-2009, 08:46 PM
i agree Bonnie. vaccines are bad and do cause autism.

Please read the post directly above your post. You don't agree with Bonnie. The statement "vaccines are bad" is an incredibly ignorant statement. For instance, it is estimated that Smallpox killed 300 million people in the 20th century, more than all World Wars combined. One-third of those that survived the disease went blind. Because of vaccines, there has not been a documented case since 1977 (in Somalia). Vaccination, effectively eradicated the world's deadliest disease from the face of the earth! As for the assertion that vaccines "cause" autism, please read the thread which refutes that proposition.

Hughes_GOAT
07-29-2009, 03:55 AM
people still got smallpox even after being vaccinated from it. and conversely, many didn't get it even though they weren't immunized. smallpox was already on the decline, even before the vaccine came out. as for the article, it's nothing more than a smear campaign by big pharma. here's an example of how Merck (makes Gardasil and MMR among other things), paid a publisher off.
http://www.scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/when_big_pharma_pays_a_publisher_to_publ.php

Hughes_GOAT
07-29-2009, 04:11 AM
and Bonnie did agree, she just got tired of debating. that's not the same as buying into what you're selling. if i'm wrong, Bonnie, then sorry. i don't think you're convinced that there is no connection with vaccines and autism though.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 05:55 AM
Vaccines started HIV.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 08:40 AM
people still got smallpox even after being vaccinated from it. and conversely, many didn't get it even though they weren't immunized. smallpox was already on the decline, even before the vaccine came out. as for the article, it's nothing more than a smear campaign by big pharma. here's an example of how Merck (makes Gardasil and MMR among other things), paid a publisher off.
http://www.scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/when_big_pharma_pays_a_publisher_to_publ.php

I think you need to read up on the subject a bit more. Variolization has been practiced for at least a millenium. Jenner introduced vaccination with cowpox in 1796. Vaccinia vaccination was introduced in the 19th century. As I mentioned, Smallpox is estimated to have killed at least 300 million people (possibly 500 million people) in the 20th century alone. Your statement, "smallpox was already on the decline, even before the vaccine came out" is absolute nonsense. I suppose the steep drop in the number of cases of other vaccine-preventable disease is a coincidence as well?

If you have some information that a major drug company is falsifying research, please publish it and collect your Pulitzer. Your linked article suggests that Merck was trying to publish a non-peer-reviewed journal. They are called "throw-away" journals for a reason. The pharmaceutical rep gives them to the physician, who throws them in the trash and then reads the New England Journal of Medicine.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 08:42 AM
and Bonnie did agree, she just got tired of debating. that's not the same as buying into what you're selling. if i'm wrong, Bonnie, then sorry. i don't think you're convinced that there is no connection with vaccines and autism though.

Bonnie wrote a sign-off in the Christian section. She is going in for an operation. She will not be responding for awhile.:sad:

que
07-29-2009, 09:06 AM
People who have existing plans won't change?

yes?
that is correct

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 09:33 AM
Vaccines started HIV.

You must have read The River.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 03:05 PM
You must have read The River.

No. I didn't read it. A doctor told me about it though. :laugh:

Neezar
07-29-2009, 03:10 PM
I think you need to read up on the subject a bit more. Variolization has been practiced for at least a millenium. Jenner introduced vaccination with cowpox in 1796. Vaccinia vaccination was introduced in the 19th century. As I mentioned, Smallpox is estimated to have killed at least 300 million people (possibly 500 million people) in the 20th century alone. Your statement, "smallpox was already on the decline, even before the vaccine came out" is absolute nonsense. I suppose the steep drop in the number of cases of other vaccine-preventable disease is a coincidence as well?



Some don't credit the vaccines with the steep drop in the spread of communicable diseases as much as education. They were taking drastic other measures and were beginning to understand how these things were spread and how to prevent it. I may look into that when I get time.

I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans.


edit: Just a little tid bit if your interested, I know a couple of families who don't get their children vaccinated and they are medical doctors.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 06:25 PM
No. I didn't read it. A doctor told me about it though. :laugh:

There have been several studies since the book was published which place the species jump several decades before the vaccine work with primate cell cultures that the author was describing. By analyzing the genome of different virus samples collected at different, known times, scientists can make a "molecular clock" and estimate the date that a virus jumped species. The science doesn't back up the author's speculation.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 06:54 PM
There have been several studies since the book was published which place the species jump several decades before the vaccine work with primate cell cultures that the author was describing. By analyzing the genome of different virus samples collected at different, known times, scientists can make a "molecular clock" and estimate the date that a virus jumped species. The science doesn't back up the author's speculation.

Molecular clock? Estimate the date? :mellow:

And when do they estimate this date to be?

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Molecular clock? Estimate the date? :mellow:

And when do they estimate this date to be?

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2235/hiv-jumped-species-earlier-thought

PARIS: The AIDS virus, previously thought to have been transmitted from chimps to humans in the 1930s, may have leapt the species barrier more than a century ago in west-central Africa.

Analysis of tissues preserved by doctors in the colonial-era Belgian Congo shows that the most pervasive strain of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) began spreading among humans at some point between 1884 and 1924.

"The diversification of HIV-1 in west-central Africa occurred long before the recognised AIDS pandemic," scientists behind the research announced today in the British science journal Nature.

Molecular clock

AIDS first came to public notice in 1981, when U.S. doctors noted an unusual cluster of deaths among young homosexuals in California and New York. It has since killed at least 25 million people, and 33 million others are living with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS by destroying immune cells.

Epidemiologists trying to date the history of HIV have until now been limited to only one laboratory source that long precedes the detected start of the outbreak. This is a now-legendary blood sample called 'ZR59', which was taken in 1959 from a patient in Leopoldville, now Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of Congo (previously Belgian Congo).

HIV is highly mutating virus, with as much as one per cent of its genome diverging per year. This rate of mutation gives rise to a measurement called a 'molecular clock', a timescale at which the HIV deviates from previous strains and from its animal ancestor, the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV).

New clue

By this calculation, HIV began to spread among humans before 1940, according to ZR59's genes. Now, though, another precious piece of the jigsaw has emerged.

It is a piece of lymph node tissue that was taken for a biopsy from a woman in Kinshasa in 1960 and preserved in a bed of paraffin wax. It was found in the archives of the Anatomy Department at the University of Kinshasa.

As they report in Nature an international team of sleuths pieced together the genetic sequence of the virus – the sub-group M of HIV-1 – and then compared telltale regions between ZR59 and the second sample, DRC60.

The research was led by Michael Worobey of the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona in Tucson, USA.

His team found a significant divergence between the two genetic regions, and calculated that this gap must have taken around 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor.

Unfortunately, many of the scientific journals are subscription-based and require a password and can't be linked; however, you could research it at a library. The story linked above describes the research. You could get the actual Nature article at the library.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 07:36 PM
Some don't credit the vaccines with the steep drop in the spread of communicable diseases as much as education. They were taking drastic other measures and were beginning to understand how these things were spread and how to prevent it. I may look into that when I get time.

I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans.


edit: Just a little tid bit if your interested, I know a couple of families who don't get their children vaccinated and they are medical doctors.

Please look into it. Please look at the public health data. The internet allows you to look up the number of cases and deaths per year in the U.S. back for several decades. You can see when the vaccine was introduced and how the number of cases dramatically declined after that time. The decline is not coincidental. Scientists can demonstrate a dramatic increase in pathogen-specific immunoglobulin and can demonstrate T-cell response.

There is consensus that HIV came from Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV); however, it is thought it jumped species due to the bushmeat trade. It is not thought to be related to vaccines (although, there has been some evidence that HIV might have been spread more widely in third world countries because needles were reused because the countries were so poor)

I suspect the "doctors" are naturopaths. Naturopaths are not M.D.s. Please clarify.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 08:02 PM
Please look into it. Please look at the public health data. The internet allows you to look up the number of cases and deaths per year in the U.S. back for several decades. You can see when the vaccine was introduced and how the number of cases dramatically declined after that time. The decline is not coincidental. Scientists can demonstrate a dramatic increase in pathogen-specific immunoglobulin and can demonstrate T-cell response.


You say the number of cases declined after the vaccinations began? NOT true in some cases, it was quite the opposite. However, I have no doubt that the number of death cases did decline.


I have looked into a bit. There have been other diseases that declined and faded out without a vaccine.



I get my kids vaccinated to err on the side of caution. Just not sure how much belief I have in their efficiency.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 08:04 PM
I suspect the "doctors" are naturopaths. Naturopaths are not M.D.s. Please clarify.

:laugh:

No, they are licensed medical doctors. Naturopathic medical doctors maybe, but still......

:laugh:

Neezar
07-29-2009, 08:17 PM
PARIS: The AIDS virus, previously thought to have been transmitted from chimps to humans in the 1930s, may have leapt the species barrier more than a century ago in west-central Africa.

Analysis of tissues preserved by doctors in the colonial-era Belgian Congo shows that the most pervasive strain of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) began spreading among humans at some point between 1884 and 1924.

"The diversification of HIV-1 in west-central Africa occurred long before the recognised AIDS pandemic," scientists behind the research announced today in the British science journal Nature.

Molecular clock

AIDS first came to public notice in 1981, when U.S. doctors noted an unusual cluster of deaths among young homosexuals in California and New York. It has since killed at least 25 million people, and 33 million others are living with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS by destroying immune cells.

Epidemiologists trying to date the history of HIV have until now been limited to only one laboratory source that long precedes the detected start of the outbreak. This is a now-legendary blood sample called 'ZR59', which was taken in 1959 from a patient in Leopoldville, now Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of Congo (previously Belgian Congo).

HIV is highly mutating virus, with as much as one per cent of its genome diverging per year. This rate of mutation gives rise to a measurement called a 'molecular clock', a timescale at which the HIV deviates from previous strains and from its animal ancestor, the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV).

New clue

By this calculation, HIV began to spread among humans before 1940, according to ZR59's genes. Now, though, another precious piece of the jigsaw has emerged.

It is a piece of lymph node tissue that was taken for a biopsy from a woman in Kinshasa in 1960 and preserved in a bed of paraffin wax. It was found in the archives of the Anatomy Department at the University of Kinshasa.

As they report in Nature an international team of sleuths pieced together the genetic sequence of the virus – the sub-group M of HIV-1 – and then compared telltale regions between ZR59 and the second sample, DRC60.

The research was led by Michael Worobey of the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona in Tucson, USA.

His team found a significant divergence between the two genetic regions, and calculated that this gap must have taken around 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor.



You will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory.

This group came to this conclusion based on studying two (only two? lol) different samples from wayback and decide that it MUST have taken 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor? Sorry. Not buying it. They have no idea of knowing the rate of mutation in different hosts and under different environmental conditions, etc. Not enough to convince me.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 09:02 PM
I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans.

I bolded the quote. How do you know? I provided evidence to the contrary based on "molecular clocks" yet you stated that, "you will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory." I guess at least you are honest. It is just a theory; however, it provides the best explanation currently available. I don't know it to be true; however, it has much more evidence than conspiracy theories about vaccines.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 09:05 PM
You will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory.

This group came to this conclusion based on studying two (only two? lol) different samples from wayback and decide that it MUST have taken 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor? Sorry. Not buying it. They have no idea of knowing the rate of mutation in different hosts and under different environmental conditions, etc. Not enough to convince me.

The "molecular clock" is not based on two samples; they are simply the earliest samples available, of many. Please read the actual study before you so easily dismiss it.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 09:12 PM
:laugh:

No, they are licensed medical doctors. Naturopathic medical doctors maybe, but still......

:laugh:

They are not the same thing. You might find the link below helpful. It exposes all kinds of quackery, including the vaccine issue, naturopaths, etc.

http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html

Neezar
07-29-2009, 09:24 PM
I bolded the quote. How do you know? I provided evidence to the contrary based on "molecular clocks" yet you stated that, "you will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory." I guess at least you are honest. It is just a theory; however, it provides the best explanation currently available. I don't know it to be true; however, it has much more evidence than conspiracy theories about vaccines.

SV40 spread by the polio vaccine is one example. Only it can't be proven that it killed anyone so the government isn't denying it.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 09:26 PM
You say the number of cases declined after the vaccinations began? NOT true in some cases, it was quite the opposite. However, I have no doubt that the number of death cases did decline.


I have looked into a bit. There have been other diseases that declined and faded out without a vaccine.



I get my kids vaccinated to err on the side of caution. Just not sure how much belief I have in their efficiency.

I am glad that you get your kids vaccinated.:)

Epidemics do go away, after a huge group of the population has caught the disease and either died or mounted a successful immune response (and of course endured a huge amount of suffering). The infection usually strikes the population again when enough young people are around who have immune systems that are naive to the pathogen. This is the rationale for vaccines, not an argument against their implementation.

Please provide evidence of your assertion that cases of a disease increased after the introduction of a vaccine.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 09:31 PM
They are not the same thing. You might find the link below helpful. It exposes all kinds of quackery, including the vaccine issue, naturopaths, etc.

http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html (http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html)

What lead you to think that I thought they were the same thing? :huh:

Neezar
07-29-2009, 09:41 PM
You agree that different things have differnt molecular clocks (i.e. rates), correct?


Is the molecular clock of one sub-group of HIV equal to all the others?

At the end of the article they say they compare this ZR59 and DRC60, what was the results, do you know?

And even if the vaccine isn't the very first way that HIV was spread to humans, I still believe that it happened.

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 09:42 PM
What lead you to think that I thought they were the same thing? :huh:

You said they may be "naturopathic medical doctors". Allopathic physicians and Naturopathic practioners have different training, different licensing (or no licensing for naturopaths in many states), different philosophies, etc. It would be akin to calling someone a Muslim Episcopalian. It shouldn't be possible but the world is messed up:http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

Play The Man
07-29-2009, 09:46 PM
SV40 spread by the polio vaccine is one example. Only it can't be proven that it killed anyone so the government isn't denying it.

It would be more accurate to say that you know there has been zoonotic viral transmission, in the past, through contaminated vaccine.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 09:46 PM
I am glad that you get your kids vaccinated.:)

Epidemics do go away, after a huge group of the population has caught the disease and either died or mounted a successful immune response (and of course endured a huge amount of suffering). The infection usually strikes the population again when enough young people are around who have immune systems that are naive to the pathogen. This is the rationale for vaccines, not an argument against their implementation.

Please provide evidence of your assertion that cases of a disease increased after the introduction of a vaccine.

Here is a portion of an article. He gives his references at the end.

During the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when smallpox epidemics ran rampant, the introduction of smallpox vaccination was often followed by an increased incidence of the disease. Many vaccine critics accused the smallpox vaccine of precipitating these epidemics. A disastrous smallpox epidemic occurred in England during the period 1871-1873 at a time when the compulsory smallpox vaccination law had resulted in nearly universal coverage. A Royal Commission was appointed in 1889 to investigate the history of vaccination in the United Kingdom. Evidence mounted that smallpox epidemics increased dramatically after 1854, the year the compulsory vaccination law went into effect. In the London epidemic of 1857-1859, there were more than 14,000 deaths; in the 1863-1865 outbreak 20,000 deaths; and from 1871 to 1873 all of Europe was swept by the worst smallpox epidemic in recorded history. In England and Wales alone, 45,000 people died of smallpox at a time when, according to official estimates, 97 percent of the population had been vaccinated.


When Japan started compulsory vaccination against smallpox in 1872 the disease steadily increased each year. In 1892 more than 165,000 cases occurred with 30,000 deaths in a completely vaccinated population. During the same time period Australia had no compulsory vaccination laws, and only three deaths occurred from smallpox over a 15-year period.

Germany adopted a compulsory vaccination law in 1834, and rigorously enforced re-vaccinations. Yet during the period 1871-1872 there were 125,000 deaths from smallpox. In Berlin itself 17,000 cases of smallpox occurred among the vaccinated population, of whom 2,240 were under ten years of age, and of these vaccinated children 736 died.

In the Philippines, global public health measures were instituted when the United States began its occupation to establish a self-reliant government in the early 1900s. The incidence of smallpox steadily declined and the compulsory vaccine campaign was credited with this dramatic reduction. However, in the years 1917 to 1919, the Philippines experienced the worst epidemic of smallpox in the country’s history with over 160,000 cases and over 70,000 deaths in a completely vaccinated population. Over 43,000 deaths from smallpox occurred in 1919 alone. The entire population of the Philippines at the time was only 11 million.
Vaccine failures of this magnitude may have several causes. The vaccine used could have been defective. During that period it was difficult to verify what the vaccine actually contained. The vaccine could have been contaminated with smallpox virus and actually caused epidemics. Or vaccine critics may have been correct in asserting that Jenner’s cowpox vaccine, which is essentially the same vaccine used today, simply did not work to prevent smallpox.




http://www.foundationforhealthchoice.com/articlerandall.html

Neezar
07-29-2009, 09:49 PM
It would be more accurate to say that you know there has been zoonotic viral transmission, in the past, through contaminated vaccine.

:laugh: And since those vaccines were prepared with monkey tissue, I think it would be a safe thesis that it was a virus from a monkey.

Neezar
07-29-2009, 09:55 PM
I am glad that you get your kids vaccinated.:)

Epidemics do go away, after a huge group of the population has caught the disease and either died or mounted a successful immune response (and of course endured a huge amount of suffering).

Isn't this true even with vaccinations?

The infection usually strikes the population again when enough young people are around who have immune systems that are naive to the pathogen. This is the rationale for vaccines, not an argument against their implementation.

But evidence seemed to show that even the small pox had it's later rounds even with the vaccination - just less deadly, I suppose.



Some say that these things will happen just the same without vaccinations. Taking nature's course.

Personally, I don't have anything against using vaccines if it will speed the process up though.

Preach
07-29-2009, 10:42 PM
Who I say Who let the dogs out

Play The Man
07-30-2009, 12:52 AM
:laugh: And since those vaccines were prepared with monkey tissue, I think it would be a safe thesis that it was a virus from a monkey.

I am trying to be careful with the terminology. You said: "I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans". My clarification of your statement revolved around the word "diseases" and not the word, "monkey". Koch's postulates must be fulfilled to prove that disease has been spread. There is controversy over whether SV40 caused disease, even though you are correct that virus was passed from contaminated vaccine stock. This argues for care in vaccine preparation (with which I strongly agree), not the abolition of vaccines.

Neezar
07-30-2009, 01:28 AM
I am trying to be careful with the terminology. You said: "I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans". My clarification of your statement revolved around the word "diseases" and not the word, "monkey". Koch's postulates must be fulfilled to prove that disease has been spread. There is controversy over whether SV40 caused disease, even though you are correct that virus was passed from contaminated vaccine stock. This argues for care in vaccine preparation (with which I strongly agree), not the abolition of vaccines.



Who is using it to argue the abolition of vaccines? I was using it to prove that a virus( a monkey virus) has, in fact, been passed from vaccines to humans. Thus, a theory that vaccine spread the HIV virus through a vaccine is not that far of a stretch. I never intended to argue the abolition of vaccines. I get them, my children get them. I just question the claims behind them sometimes.

I did interchange the words disease and virus. You got me there. lol

Neezar
07-30-2009, 01:28 AM
Who I say Who let the dogs out

woof, woof


:tongue0011:

Play The Man
07-30-2009, 01:55 AM
I read the linked article by Randall Neustaedter, OMD, LAc, CCH but didn't quote it because it was long and I didn't want to lengthen this thread. To be honest, I didn't know what "OMD, LAc, CCH" was, but according to my internet search (isn't the internet grand?:)) it stands for: "Doctor of Oriental Medicine, Licensed Acupuncturist, and Certified in Classical Homeopathy". Mr. Neustaedter (or should I call him "Oriental Doctor" Neustaedter?) sure seems to be critical of vaccines and allopathic medicine. I wonder what his treatment for some of the vaccine-preventable diseases might be? Perhaps, he could draw from his bag of "Oriental Medicine" medicines and treat a child dying with Haemophilus influenzae type B meningitis with some extract of dried tiger penis? Or maybe he could use his skill as an acupuncturist and treat the child dying of measles encephalitis with needles to his chakra? Or maybe he could draw on the storied history of homeopathy to treat someone with liver failure from Hepatitis B with a homeopathic dose of arsenic? I guess we will never know because, in my opinion, no reputable hospital in the country would give him privileges. He limits his practice to rich, healthy hippies without real medical issues.

It would be a fool's errand to try to follow the references of Neustaedter's article. It is not peer-reviewed. During the peer-review process, all of the references are checked and double-checked. In my opinion, what he wrote is "junk" science. His youngest example is 90 years old. All the examples take place in foreign countries where it would literally require someone to hop on an airplane and search foreign libraries to verify his statistics. In cases where claims of this ilk have been traced back to the source, it is invariably a late 19th century monograph by an anti-vaccine crank who never submitted his data for peer review.

For those reading this thread that are curious about the safety and efficacy of childhood vaccines, here is a link to a parent's guide put out by the CDC:http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/immu/2005-parents-guide.pdf. The data below are from page 15 of the parent's guide. That page also gives a reference to MMWR, which can be accessed on the CDC website. Please note that smallpox statistics are included. Please trust your child's health to a reputable source. Excellent resources are available on-line, such as: Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.com/, CDC http://www.cdc.gov/, etc. Please don't trust your kid's health to a pony-tailed guy selling patent-medicines in a van down by the river.

* Diphtheria
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 175,885
Cases in 2003: 1
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Hib (<5 yrs old)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 20,000 (estimate)
Cases in 2003: 259
Decrease in cases per year: 98.8%

* Measles
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 503,282
Cases in 2003: 56
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Mumps
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 152,209
Cases in 2003: 231
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Pertussis (whooping cough)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 147,271
Cases in 2003: 11,647
Decrease in cases per year: 92.1%

* Polio (paralytic)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 16,316
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%

* Rubella
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 47,745
Cases in 2003: 7
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Smallpox
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 48,164
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%

* Tetanus
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 1,314
Cases in 2003: 20
Decrease in cases per year: 98.5%

Play The Man
07-30-2009, 02:00 AM
You agree that different things have differnt molecular clocks (i.e. rates), correct?


Is the molecular clock of one sub-group of HIV equal to all the others?

At the end of the article they say they compare this ZR59 and DRC60, what was the results, do you know?

And even if the vaccine isn't the very first way that HIV was spread to humans, I still believe that it happened.

If you are honestly interested in the data, and would be open-minded to its ramifications for your belief in a vaccine/HIV connection, I would be willing to get you a copy of the study. If this is just internet jousting, let's not waste each other's time.

Play The Man
07-30-2009, 02:33 AM
I never intended to argue the abolition of vaccines. I get them, my children get them. I just question the claims behind them sometimes.

That is all I care about. The rest is academic. :)

Neezar
07-30-2009, 03:46 AM
It would be a fool's errand to try to follow the references of Neustaedter's article. It is not peer-reviewed. During the peer-review process, all of the references are checked and double-checked. In my opinion, what he wrote is "junk" science. His youngest example is 90 years old. All the examples take place in foreign countries where it would literally require someone to hop on an airplane and search foreign libraries to verify his statistics. In cases where claims of this ilk have been traced back to the source, it is invariably a late 19th century monograph by an anti-vaccine crank who never submitted his data for peer review.




:laugh:

Not peer reviewed? He is the author of The Vaccine Guide: Risks and benefits for children and adults. The book has been used as a reference by other doctors writing articles that have been published in medical journals. The book is used in classes taught in medical schools when learning of the great vaccine debate.

His sources and references are clearly listed in the book. Most of them are pretty common ones such as WHO, British Medical Journal, ones that are most likely easily found online so no backpacking to foreign lands. (The internet IS great!) lol



And he doesn't have a pony tail. He is bald. :laugh:

Play The Man
07-30-2009, 04:03 AM
:laugh:

Not peer reviewed? He is the author of The Vaccine Guide: Risks and benefits for children and adults. The book has been used as a reference by other doctors writing articles that have been published in medical journals. The book is used in classes taught in medical schools when learning of the great vaccine debate.

His sources and references are clearly listed in the book. Most of them are pretty common ones such as WHO, British Medical Journal, ones that are most likely easily found online so no backpacking to foreign lands. (The internet IS great!) lol



And he doesn't have a pony tail. He is bald. :laugh:

Peer-reviewed means he has submitted a work of science to a reputable journal and had it reviewed by a panel of scientists, who examine every sentence, every graph, all the statistics and all the references. It is not uncommon for submissions to be rejected. Even submissions that are accepted are revised multiple times in an attempt to weed out any errors. I would bet that his book is either self-published or published by a quack publishing house. I would bet that the book is not taught in allopathic medical schools. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the pony-tail remark, I wasn't necessarily referring to the author you quoted (and I don't know if he really lives in a van down by the river:laugh:) I was just suggesting to be careful about where you get medical advice. I have a question for you: If your child was deathly ill with an unknown disease and getting worse by the minute, if you had a choice, would you fly your child to the Mayo Clinic or would you fly your child to that author's Oriental medicine/acupuncture/homeopathic clinic? (Answer honestly! And no dodging the question!)

Neezar
07-30-2009, 04:10 AM
Peer-reviewed means he has submitted a work of science to a reputable journal and had it reviewed by a panel of scientists, who examine every sentence, every graph, all the statistics and all the references. It is not uncommon for submissions to be rejected. Even submissions that are accepted are revised multiple times in an attempt to weed out any errors. I would bet that his book is either self-published or published by a quack publishing house. I would bet that the book is not taught in allopathic medical schools. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the pony-tail remark, I wasn't necessarily referring to the author you quoted (and I don't know if he really lives in a van down by the river:laugh:) I was just suggesting to be careful about where you get medical advice. I have a question for you: If your child was deathly ill with an unknown disease and getting worse by the minute, if you had a choice, would you fly your child to the Mayo Clinic or would you fly your child to that author's Oriental medicine/acupuncture/homeopathic clinic? (Answer honestly! And no dodging the question!)

I would take my child to the Mayo Clinic. I'm not an idiot. :laugh:

HE didn't do the research himself. So, his input is conjecture and not being questioned as to whether it is fact or not. He pulled the research from others (Such as WHO, British Medical Researchers, etc.) and compiled his book on vaccinations and referenced the researchers.

Whether I would use a real medical doctor or a homeopath has no bearing whatsoever on whether vaccines gave humans a monkey virus. :laugh:

Neezar
07-30-2009, 04:22 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=_2ov3jPP53oC&dq=randall+neustaedter+omd&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=dA9xStONIJeMtgfgkfWnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12

Check his references for his book yourself. Page 2 of references are all from the CDC. Others are from medical journals, etc. His book has legit stuff from reputable sources. Now hush. :laugh:

Play The Man
07-30-2009, 04:25 AM
I would take my child to the Mayo Clinic. I'm not an idiot. :laugh:

HE didn't do the research himself. So, his input is conjecture and not being questioned as to whether it is fact or not. He pulled the research from others (Such as WHO, British Medical Researchers, etc.) and compiled his book on vaccinations and referenced the researchers.

Whether I would use a real medical doctor or a homeopath has no bearing whatsoever on whether vaccines gave humans a monkey virus. :laugh:

Well, Neezar, I think we're going to have to amicably agree to disagree. In my opinion, the guy cherrypicks information from sources that would likely be horrified by the distortion he is committing with their research. At least you vaccinate your kid and would have the good sense to seek proper medical care; unfortunately, there are people out there that will refuse vaccines and medical care for their children. Those are the people I am concerned about and the reason I kept this thread going for so long.

Neezar
07-30-2009, 04:39 AM
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i214/ruthanthonygardner/whew.jpg

:laugh: