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View Full Version : insurance--warning really long and might induce critical thinking


adamt
07-21-2009, 02:57 AM
I thought i might bring what could be a lively debate. I suppose I might be the only one to take a stand against while everyone else is for or mostly for it. I am not looking to argue but to actually hash out and end up with something applicable to life stemming from a Godly discussion.

I truly would like to be persuaed from what i believe if that would be the correct way to do, but I am cursed with the gift of critical thinking and have formed my own opinion on this and am "testing" it against you all. To see if their are cracks in my belief.

I have gained a certain amount of respect for some of the people that input on here so I hope this doesn't get overlooked and noone "argues" with me. I have always found tyburns input interesting and i am very curious as to what nateR thinks and also i am VERY curious about what mark hughes might say if he were to ever visit this thread, i have enjoyed reading some of his earlier discussions.

Please don't think of me as insane, but keep an open mind when i humbly try to convey my thoughts! I am just a simple farmer who loves hunting and fishing,with--as you can soon see-- a bigger love for God, and my family.

now on to my thoughts.....

Lets assume we all agree on the basic Godly premise that all we have is God’s, given to us by God, kept in our possession by God and we should manage it to God’s glory. I don’t personally agree with tithe, as I believe all I have is God’s so why limit it to 10%, which I agree that belief could be severely eschewed and used to justify not giving at all but we won’t talk about that in this thread. I also believe using God’s money to raise a family is one of the most important purposes in life.

Now on to insurance. I am as contrary to most Christians let alone people that I can get on this issue. My stance on this issue is extreme, yes, as it places the full burden on God. I understand the need for man to plan and work to fulfill God’s will and to do well on this earth for himself and God and that just because we are His servants don’t mean He is going to take care of everything for us. But there has to be a line drawn on what men are responsible for and what God is responsible for in our lives.

First things first. Insurance is a business. BIG business. Big MONEY MAKING business. They are not the church, they are not non-profit. I don’t believe they honestly care about people, no matter what they might tell you, or your agent might actually believe personally, the policymakers at the insurance companies are in it to make money, not to help you.

Insurance companies prey on people’s fear of the unknown. What might happen? What will they do if said disaster happens? If you ask me that is pretty low right there. Fortunately I serve a God that knows what is going to happen and I don’t have to worry about not personally knowing what will happen. Insurance companies also play the odds. Insurance is gambling. Gambling against yourself and God. Lets take a look at a life insurance.

Say I am a healthy, never smoked, nonsmoking, non drinking 25 year old male in the middle of Iowa, with a perfect driving history. I need a life insurance policy for $250,000.00. Say my premium will cost me $175.00 per year. That is saying that the odds of me dying are 175 to 250,000. Or 175 out of 250,000. So out of every healthy white male in the middle of iowa who drives safe, with healthy relatives, who doesn’t engage in extreme sports, doesn’t scuba dive, no dui tickets, doesn’t drink, never smoked, doesn’t fly in airplanes, hasn’t and doesn’t plan on traveling outside of the usa, and all around simple guy, the odds of me dying are about 1 in 1429, or 175 in 250,000. And yes they asked me (when I checked into life insurance ) about all the above, my height and weight, my family medical history, if I do anything extreme or dangerous, if I fly in airplanes, if I travel or am going to travel outside the us, my driving history and nicotine use. Everything. Had I been one to do those sort of things the odds of me dying would be higher, therefore my premium higher. When I get older, my premium will be higher. I wonder what a 100 year old man who has smoked three packs a day since he was 12 and skydives in North Korea for a living would cost to insure? The odds of him dying would be closer to 1:1 in a given year, so his premium wouldn’t be far from 250,000 on a 250000 dollar policy. Now go back to my previous example. The insurance company is betting 250,000 that I won’t die this year. I am betting 175 that I will. The only way for me to win that bet is to die. Now considering the fact that I pray for good health and safety and believe that God will bless me, I am betting against God with HIS money!! We do believe that we are just stewards of all that God has given us right? I am betting that God will let me die. Not only are the odds stupid and in favor of --- and I’ll steal a gambling term---“the house”, but I am betting against myself and telling God that –“hey, I know I prayed this morning for safety and blessing and I say I have faith in you but just in case you mess up today or can’t handle some situation that comes along, I am going to take YOUR money that I should be using to bring YOU glory and I am going to give it to a greedy insurance company and let THEM be my safety net. I trust you and everything and all that good jazz Lord but I have to be certain me and my family will be taken care of. And I don’t know if you can do that as well as an insurance company” Not to mention that not only is our money his, but our talents are as well. Furthermore our bodies are, and our bodies are just earthly vessels of our souls, just shells. They too are on loan from God and we are responsible for the stewardship and good management of them but not the insuarance of them. That is still up to God, it’s His body. His temple. I believe in assurance, not insurance. Do you have to carry the insurance on your company vehicle? No but you have to treat it decently. You take care of it and the final liability is the companies. That is how I feel about my shell, er um my body. It's actually God's to take care of. Faith is evidenced by your actions. What does it say about your faith when you pray, and turn right around and act as if your prayer meant nothing, that it couldn’t possibly be answered, and you need to have a backup plan called insurance. And you put your faith in man, not God. In doctors, not God. Do you not realize the magnitude of God. Do you doubt His ability to keep you safe and healthy or to heal you. Do you doubt His ability to provide in hard times? Do you think He couldn’t heal or provide money for care? Take a look at Psalm 50. Read the whole thing but if you can't get your Bible and look it up right now I will put a little incerpt here for you.

9 I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the creatures of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.


Did you catch that? He owns the cattle on a thousand hills, I think He could manage to provide for you and your family. He created you, I think He could manage to keep you alive and well.
Why would God keep you safe and healthy if you don’t hold up your end of the bargain by trusting Him and allowing Him to provide for you. Do you not read the promises in His Word? If I told my family that I will be responsible for supper tonight. All they have to do is trust me. I will have it under control, we will eat at 6:00 tonight. Guaranteed. Don’t be late all you have to do is show up. I have planned on getting everyone’s favorite meal. Each person individually getting their all time favorite food. Then at 5:58 as I walked into the house with each person’s preferred dish, I discover that my wife has made all the kids sandwiches at 5:45, because they were getting a little hungry and it didn’t look like I would be able to get everything done by 6:00. What does that do for my desire to plan that surprise again? What does it do for my effort, when everyone is already full of mediocre food and not able to indulge in their feast? What if I had known about that before I made the effort to gather the food? Do you think I would have wasted my time doing that, if I knew that it would all go to waste. God knows you don’t trust Him enough to let Him bless you and keep you, so why should He. He knows you have put your faith, which is evidenced by your action of paying them His money every month, in insurance, even health insurance. I doubt He will make the effort to hold up His end of the deal, when you won’t even be in a situation to accept it. Why should He, you’ve done slapped Him in the face by turning your back on Him, then turned back around and slapped Him again by using His money to do it!!!

WHY would I want to take 175.00 of God’s money and bet that I am going to die. I dare you to put into the offering plate at church the same amount you do the insurance man’s pockets. I dare you to give 175.00 more this year at church or otherwise directly to God’s work. Maybe then the church could be used of God to support people and families instead of insurance companies, and you know what, when a church supports a hurting needing family, they get more than money to cover their bills, they get emotional and mental help and support and more importantly they get the gospel. They get their spiritual needs attended to. Isn’t that the purpose of the Church? When you give to insurance you are serving the god of mammon, not the God of the Universe. What are your motives for insurance? Purely materialistic, purely mammon and money driven. Insurance doesn’t prevent disease like God can--- and will if you let Him. Insurance only gives promises of money. And it is a binky(yeah that’s right, something to soothe and pacify but has no real substance-- just like what we call our babies pacifiers, binkies) to the scared and faithless of the world, who worry over money and bow to the god of mammon.


Okay i got a little heated there but i hope i didn't get too harsh. so what do you think?

NateR
07-21-2009, 03:25 AM
I agree with you. The only insurance I have is the state minimum requirement that I need to drive my car. I don't have any health insurance, I don't want it. The only life insurance I've ever had was when I was in the military; but I believe even that was a scam because I never died once while I was in the Army, so shouldn't I have gotten ALL of that money back when I got out of the Army?

It's the same with car insurance. If I go an entire year without ever using my car insurance, then shouldn't I get that money back?

I might actually be a little more extreme in my beliefs than you, because I'm not even sure that Christians should have savings accounts, IRAs, 401k plans, etc. That all just sounds too much like "storing up treasures here on earth" which Jesus strongly warned against.

I do like your analogy that insurance is essentially betting against GOD.

Chuck
07-21-2009, 04:05 AM
Adam you're certainly passionate about what you believe but unfortunately your math as well as your logic is flawed.

Nate.... how do you see insurance as betting against God? I don't understand..

Both of your opinions are common and understandable but based more on ignorance then fact. To have or not have various forms of insurance is obviously a right that we all have to exercise but to not have any is simply careless or selfish... perhaps both IMO.

Airbags, seat belts, roll cages, motorcycle helmets, life jackets.... all forms of insurance... protecting yourself against a risk... no different then a policy...

Would you ever think of returning a motorcycle helmet after owning it for a year because you never crashed? A life jacket after a boat trip because you didn't drown?

You insure yourself against a risk that is very real.. the product whether it's a policy or a life jacket is there to protect you against that risk. The fact that you don't use it doesn't negate it's legitimacy, value or purpose.

And FYI there are many non-profit insurance companies in the US. I don't believe it's a valid point but I just thought I would mention it.

Adam if I have time tomorrow I'll respond to your post in a little more detail...

Buzzard
07-21-2009, 04:10 AM
I agree with you. The only insurance I have is the state minimum requirement that I need to drive my car. I don't have any health insurance, I don't want it. The only life insurance I've ever had was when I was in the military; but I believe even that was a scam because I never died once while I was in the Army, so shouldn't I have gotten ALL of that money back when I got out of the Army?

It's the same with car insurance. If I go an entire year without ever using my car insurance, then shouldn't I get that money back?

I might actually be a little more extreme in my beliefs than you, because I'm not even sure that Christians should have savings accounts, IRAs, 401k plans, etc. That all just sounds too much like "storing up treasures here on earth" which Jesus strongly warned against.

I do like your analogy that insurance is essentially betting against GOD.

Do you not have health insurance because you can't afford it?

What will you do if you get sick and have an extended stay in the hospital racking up a $250,000 bill? Will you repay it or declare bankruptcy, sticking your debt on the American taxpayers?

Stuff like that happens. I have a friend with no insurance who has racked up a $300,000 bill. When he finally declares bankruptcy, you and I will be paying for it.

Another friend of mine has a daughter that owes the hospital where she works big time money for bills related to her infant son. She brings home only $6.00 a paycheck because they have garnished her wages. She can't declare bankruptcy because she doesn't have the $1,500 fee for the lawyers.

I'm fortunate enough to have health insurance right now, and hope to always have it. If I didn't, I would be broke and a burden on our overtaxed system.

Good luck and good health to you.

Chuck
07-21-2009, 04:13 AM
Do you not have health insurance because you can't afford it?

What will you do if you get sick and have an extended stay in the hospital racking up a $250,000 bill? Will you repay it or declare bankruptcy, sticking your debt on the American taxpayers?

Stuff like that happens. I have a friend with no insurance who has racked up a $300,000 bill. When he finally declares bankruptcy, you and I will be paying for it.

Another friend of mine has a daughter that owes the hospital where she works big time money for bills related to her infant son. She brings home only $6.00 a paycheck because they have garnished her wages. She can't declare bankruptcy because she doesn't have the $1,500 fee for the lawyers.

I'm fortunate enough to have health insurance right now, and hope to always have it. If I didn't, I would be broke and a burden on our overtaxed system.

Good luck and good health to you.

Excellent point... that would be the "careless" part I referred to in my last post....

NateR
07-21-2009, 04:42 AM
Do you not have health insurance because you can't afford it?

What will you do if you get sick and have an extended stay in the hospital racking up a $250,000 bill? Will you repay it or declare bankruptcy, sticking your debt on the American taxpayers?

Stuff like that happens. I have a friend with no insurance who has racked up a $300,000 bill. When he finally declares bankruptcy, you and I will be paying for it.

Another friend of mine has a daughter that owes the hospital where she works big time money for bills related to her infant son. She brings home only $6.00 a paycheck because they have garnished her wages. She can't declare bankruptcy because she doesn't have the $1,500 fee for the lawyers.

I'm fortunate enough to have health insurance right now, and hope to always have it. If I didn't, I would be broke and a burden on our overtaxed system.

Good luck and good health to you.

No, because if I could afford health insurance, I still wouldn't buy it.

Now that I think about it, as a veteran, I technically do have health insurance with the VA; but I have never once even considered using it in the 7 years that I have been out of the military. I had actually forgotten about that.

I've trusted GOD to keep me healthy for the last 7 years and I've never had a major medical problem. Of course, like everyone, I have little things that bug me now and then, but they are no more than inconveniences and I'm not one of those people that runs to the doctor every time I get a sniffle. I'm also not a pill popper so I try to avoid OTC and prescription medicine (with the only exceptions being Vicks Vaporub, eye drops and the occasional antacid).

If I feel a cold coming on, then I just up my vitamin C intake, get extra rest and drink plenty of water. So far it's worked extremely well in that I've never been sick for longer than 3 days over the last decade.

If I were to contract a major illness like cancer, then I guess I would check with the VA to make sure that it wasn't caused by something I was exposed to in the in Army; then go from there. However, I wouldn't want to become a burden on anyone else financially, so I doubt I would accept extensive treatment. The way I see it, I choose to not have health insurance, so I need to accept the consequences of that choice if something major does go wrong.

I do know that I've most likely inherited a heart problem from my dad and I'm not looking forward to my 50s if my dad's life is anything to go by. He had a crimped artery next to his heart and I'm showing some of the same symptoms that he had. However, I think the best thing I can do right now is just live as healthy as I can... within reason, of course. I try to eat healthy, I don't smoke and I rarely drink alcohol.

My biological grandfather, on my dad's side, died at the age of 30 from this heart condition; but that was mainly because he was an alcoholic. My dad started having a series of heart attacks when he turned 50, but he's lived his entire life eating high-fat, fried foods and also suffers from a broken neck that cuts off some circulation to the left side of his body. So I figure that, if I lose weight and get myself back down under 200 pounds, and try to eat healthier, and stay away from too much alcohol, then I should be fine. Of course that doesn't eliminate the unpredictable, like my dad getting hit by a drunk driver resulting in his broken neck. But stuff like that you can only leave in GOD's hands.

Chris F
07-21-2009, 04:44 AM
Lets see here. 2 years ago Chemotherapy and other treatments cost me 85,000 grand. Had I no insurance I'd never be a home or new car owner and would be bound by debt for my entire life. What my insurance (it was not the greatest coverege) did not cover 25,000. God did. Somehow the hospital had a donation that covered my bill. I still have no clue how other then God is faithful. Insurance is not anti trust in God. Just good stewardship.

NateR
07-21-2009, 04:50 AM
Adam you're certainly passionate about what you believe but unfortunately your math as well as your logic is flawed.

Nate.... how do you see insurance as betting against God? I don't understand..

Both of your opinions are common and understandable but based more on ignorance then fact. To have or not have various forms of insurance is obviously a right that we all have to exercise but to not have any is simply careless or selfish... perhaps both IMO.

Airbags, seat belts, roll cages, motorcycle helmets, life jackets.... all forms of insurance... protecting yourself against a risk... no different then a policy...

Would you ever think of returning a motorcycle helmet after owning it for a year because you never crashed? A life jacket after a boat trip because you didn't drown?

You insure yourself against a risk that is very real.. the product whether it's a policy or a life jacket is there to protect you against that risk. The fact that you don't use it doesn't negate it's legitimacy, value or purpose.

And FYI there are many non-profit insurance companies in the US. I don't believe it's a valid point but I just thought I would mention it.

Adam if I have time tomorrow I'll respond to your post in a little more detail...

Well, there is a difference there. A life vest is a possession. Something that you buy once and should never have to buy again. Insurance is more of a promise than a possession. You're essentially paying someone else for their promise to help you if something bad happens.

Buying insurance and buying safety equipment are two very different things.

lyndsey823
07-21-2009, 05:00 AM
Nate, it is so crazy how much this sounds like my boyfriend. The part about your 50's, your father's heart problems, not going to the doctor, etc. We just had this conversation the other night!! Haha.

His stance against medical care mainly comes from his being a paramedic for 8years and knowing that no matter what, when your time comes, it's your time. Hospitals, insurance companies, drug companies, etc., just want your money. Keeping your alive is in their best interest. His opinion of course. And that is where he had a problem with his faith. How can you save someone when it was so obvious God was calling them home? He had to step away from being a medic, as much as he hated giving up his dream job.

Chris F
07-21-2009, 05:01 AM
Well, there is a difference there. A life vest is a possession. Something that you buy once and should never have to buy again. Insurance is more of a promise than a possession. You're essentially paying someone else for their promise to help you if something bad happens.

Buying insurance and buying safety equipment are two very different things.

I look more at it as a savings account. You put some money down for when you need to see a dr, dentist, etc. I think if the doctor owuld have kept the insurance people out of the mix then health care cost would be a lot lower. But since they did it is pretty much a necessity in this day and age.

I inherited some pretty cruddy genes, I destroyed my body as a young person with 4 sports a year then a few years as a professional wrestler. Then the worst happen I became a preacher and the devil has been trying to kill me since. I just got insurance this month from my new job. My deductablie is 1500 which will be met my first trip because my cancer scans are 7000 dollars a year. So I am more then happy to give 40 a month then to pay 10,000 a year out of pocket.

Chris F
07-21-2009, 05:05 AM
Nate, it is so crazy how much this sounds like my boyfriend. The part about your 50's, your father's heart problems, not going to the doctor, etc. We just had this conversation the other night!! Haha.

His stance against medical care mainly comes from his being a paramedic for 8years and knowing that no matter what, when your time comes, it's your time. Hospitals, insurance companies, drug companies, etc., just want your money. Keeping your alive is in their best interest. His opinion of course. And that is where he had a problem with his faith. How can you save someone when it was so obvious God was calling them home? He had to step away from being a medic, as much as he hated giving up his dream job.

Your boyfriend has a point. The book of Job says that each man has an appointed time and that God know exactly when that time is and we cannot change unless God wants to as the man who prayed for a longer life and got it. Jesus also said you cannot add any time to your lofe by worrying about things like food, clothes and such. But qulaity of life is what we need here on earth. So I agree with you that medical care is wisdom and we should take care of ourselves.

Play The Man
07-21-2009, 05:20 AM
I respectfully disagree with AdamT and NateR (didn't quote you to save room) In the Lord's Prayer, we are told to ask Our Father to "gives us this day our daily bread". I don't take that to mean that I shouldn't have a stocked pantry. I am not doubting the love of God if I use prudence to prepare for natural disasters and lean times. In my opinion, I am being a responsible citizen and father. Another way to look at life insurance is that your premiums are paying to care for widows and children when a father dies at a relatively early age (this does not absolve families and churches from giving assistance as well). Sure, some of the money goes as profits to the insurance company; however, I don't mind if the baker charges more than the cost of my bread's ingredients in order to make a profit. Similarly, I don't mind if the insurance company is charging premiums to make a profit, as long as they will pay my wife if I die young or pay other widows in their time of need. I suppose a church group could set up a non-profit agency to provide life insurance, just as a church could run a non-profit bakery. I think the church should concentrate on preaching the Gospel.

Although God controls the locusts (e.g. plagues of Egypt), I wouldn't consider a farmer like AdamT to be an unfaithful man if he puts insecticide on his crops. Because, I pray for my daily bread doesn't mean that I expect God to rain down Manna from heaven like he once did. I work for the money to buy it. Does that mean that God did not provide it? No, he used the vocation of the baker and he provided me with an income from my vocation. Similarly, the life insurance salesman has a legitimate vocation in my opinion.

I think Christians have liberty to make decisions in areas that aren't clearly defined as sinful.

NateR
07-21-2009, 05:46 AM
I think Christians have liberty to make decisions in areas that aren't clearly defined as sinful.

Well, this is definitely one of those grey areas of the faith that really just comes down to what the individual believer is comfortable with. I'm not 100% sold on my opinion because I haven't really experienced both sides of the issue. Obviously someone like Chris F, who has survived cancer, will have very different experiences to draw from. I'm definitely not going to be one to tell him that seeking treatment was a lack of faith on his part, because I believe that to be nonsense.

I'm also willing to accept the possibility that my disdain of savings accounts might really be a subconscious rationalization for the fact that I really suck at saving money.:laugh:

Finally, I do have the VA as a somewhat limited safety net if something serious does go wrong. So technically I will never be uninsured. Of course, that's not a freebie like socialized medicine would be, that's something that I had to give up ten years of my life to earn.

adamt
07-21-2009, 02:04 PM
okay i am really busy this morning but feel i should at least reply to my own thread so i have skimmed it a little bit and wanted to throw a little bit out there.

NateR- I think your vieew on savings account is just right, other than a short term place to store up some money that is going towards a certain goal, preferrably something within God's ministry, which includes your family but i'm not so sure it should include retirement, but i will have to explain that more later, when someone questions me on it and i have more time.

I might have to step it up one more on you though nate, i think that debt is good, not evil like many people believe. I am a steward of my credit, i plan on owing as much as i possibly can when i am raptured, i will never get overextended that i can't repay and fulfill my obligations, but i use my "credit" or trustworthyness, as a tool for God's purpose. Wouldn't it be cool if i was raptured and owed twice as much as God had given me to manage in the first place.


On to other things, i see it as faith in action. I don't think God will give me cancer, because I am trusting in Him. The people that Chris trusted managed to save him, and I am more than certain the Man I trust could save me(or not give it to me in the first place). I don't say that condescendingly, but we really take the opportunity for miracles away when we trust doctors so much instead of the creator. If He gave me cancer, which I hope I give Him a little incentive not to, by actually putting all my faith in Him, none in nothing else, but also by totally devoting my life to Him as a literal living sacrifice.


I appreciate the responses, and it perked me up a little bit this morning to see nate agrees with me. :) I knew I respected his views for a reason!

I hope to respond more later today.

adamt
07-21-2009, 03:15 PM
Lets see here. 2 years ago Chemotherapy and other treatments cost me 85,000 grand. Had I no insurance I'd never be a home or new car owner and would be bound by debt for my entire life. What my insurance (it was not the greatest coverege) did not cover 25,000. God did. Somehow the hospital had a donation that covered my bill. I still have no clue how other then God is faithful. Insurance is not anti trust in God. Just good stewardship.


How much more awesome would it have been if you let God provide the whole 85,000? Not trying to be snide, it's just hard for me not to feel like we sell God short sometimes.

adamt
07-21-2009, 03:23 PM
This really is an iron sharpens iron type of thing for me. Just as nate said he isn't completely sold on the idea, well, I might be a little more sold on the idea than him, but I am here listening to christian and non christian views both to know what I should consider.

I can't help but think like my original post eluded to, that those of us who choose to have faith in God and not have insurance(this does not include people who "just can't afford" insurance, it's a worldview difference) that God is faithful and will provide. Either with money or with health. IF we trust Him and obey Him--- as far as being healthy and good stewards of His Temple.

Also I don't believe in refusing treatment. But I think God should be foremost in that. If I got cancer I think I would be fasting in praying much more than most people do. I don't fast, but I think I would if I had a dire need like that. I think if you were praying in the waiting room of a hospital and the doctor cam in, most people would cut their prayer short to talk to the doctor. So who do they have faith in? The doctor or Almighty God whom they just "hung up" on. It's not the action as much as the perspective/belief system/worldview that people have, that dictates their actions.

Also as I meant to say, I wouldn't refuse treatment. If I had bugs in my beans I would spray them. And will. That's not insurance that is treatment. I don't refuse treatment. I just ain't gonna get insurance on my beans to have them sprayed for me. Because as I said earlier it is all a gamble, and the only way you win is to bet against yourself.

Well gotta go.....

Crisco
07-21-2009, 03:48 PM
Nate, it is so crazy how much this sounds like my boyfriend. The part about your 50's, your father's heart problems, not going to the doctor, etc. We just had this conversation the other night!! Haha.

His stance against medical care mainly comes from his being a paramedic for 8years and knowing that no matter what, when your time comes, it's your time. Hospitals, insurance companies, drug companies, etc., just want your money. Keeping your alive is in their best interest. His opinion of course. And that is where he had a problem with his faith. How can you save someone when it was so obvious God was calling them home? He had to step away from being a medic, as much as he hated giving up his dream job.

I feel like your boyfriend should have had no trouble being a medic...

When God wants you he takes you. Itdoesn't matter how hard people try to save you... you go.

It silly to think we can interfere in something like that.

Crisco
07-21-2009, 03:53 PM
This really is an iron sharpens iron type of thing for me. Just as nate said he isn't completely sold on the idea, well, I might be a little more sold on the idea than him, but I am here listening to christian and non christian views both to know what I should consider.

I can't help but think like my original post eluded to, that those of us who choose to have faith in God and not have insurance(this does not include people who "just can't afford" insurance, it's a worldview difference) that God is faithful and will provide. Either with money or with health. IF we trust Him and obey Him--- as far as being healthy and good stewards of His Temple.

Also I don't believe in refusing treatment. But I think God should be foremost in that. If I got cancer I think I would be fasting in praying much more than most people do. I don't fast, but I think I would if I had a dire need like that. I think if you were praying in the waiting room of a hospital and the doctor cam in, most people would cut their prayer short to talk to the doctor. So who do they have faith in? The doctor or Almighty God whom they just "hung up" on. It's not the action as much as the perspective/belief system/worldview that people have, that dictates their actions.

Also as I meant to say, I wouldn't refuse treatment. If I had bugs in my beans I would spray them. And will. That's not insurance that is treatment. I don't refuse treatment. I just ain't gonna get insurance on my beans to have them sprayed for me. Because as I said earlier it is all a gamble, and the only way you win is to bet against yourself.

Well gotta go.....

If your policy is only 175 a year then good for you. You should get it. That is a small expense and you can better serve God by being debt free. Hoping you get raptured while youowe everyone money is stupid.

I pay $200 a month and I still feel that is moderately cheap.

Chris F
07-21-2009, 07:04 PM
How much more awesome would it have been if you let God provide the whole 85,000? Not trying to be snide, it's just hard for me not to feel like we sell God short sometimes.

Why should God when he gave us sense enough to save for such an event. I also I do not appreciate you insinuating that God somehow like you more and thus I got cancer because I did not trust God. That is a very assonie thing to say. My cancer was environmental. Nothing I did caused it. Hodgkin's Lymphoma is a blood cancer that just happens. I have never live a lifestyle that would cause me to get cancer. So by your logic all those little children who get leukemia God must hate because they got cancer but you won't because you have some sort of super faith. Horse poo sir. Your pride is an abomination to God and I suggest you spend dome time in scripture and read about pride and humility. If I am misrepresenting what you said I am sorry, but the way you phrased your post how am I suppose to think it. You are saying I trusted one person but since you trust God you won't get cancer. That sound a lot like you are saying I got cancer because I did not trust God.

Crisco
07-21-2009, 10:08 PM
No offense intended but it sort of seems like your using your faith as an excuse to be a dead beat...

Twinsmama
07-21-2009, 10:10 PM
Why should God when he gave us sense enough to save for such an event. I also I do not appreciate you insinuating that God somehow like you more and thus I got cancer because I did not trust God. That is a very assonie thing to say. My cancer was environmental. Nothing I did caused it. Hodgkin's Lymphoma is a blood cancer that just happens. I have never live a lifestyle that would cause me to get cancer. So by your logic all those little children who get leukemia God must hate because they got cancer but you won't because you have some sort of super faith. Horse poo sir. Your pride is an abomination to God and I suggest you spend dome time in scripture and read about pride and humility. If I am misrepresenting what you said I am sorry, but the way you phrased your post how am I suppose to think it. You are saying I trusted one person but since you trust God you won't get cancer. That sound a lot like you are saying I got cancer because I did not trust God.

That's what I thought he was saying too. i'm sure he didn't mean it like that though. I put trust in God to decide when it is my time to go. I think that when it is your time to go it just is. However I make sure that my family is taken care of in that event. I do not smoke, drink or do any drugs. i work out so that I am in shape. Cancer, diabetes and high blood pressure run in my family. It seems pretty likely that I will have some major medical expenses in my later years. I don't feel that I would be a good person christian or not burdening my family medical bills. In my opinion you are not betting against God. It's more like saying that you know God has a plan for you and you are not worried about what happens to you just your loved ones.

I probably felt different before kids but it's true that kids change how you think about stuff.

Crisco
07-21-2009, 10:14 PM
That's what I thought he was saying too. i'm sure he didn't mean it like that though. I put trust in God to decide when it is my time to go. I think that when it is your time to go it just is. However I make sure that my family is taken care of in that event. I do not smoke, drink or do any drugs. i work out so that I am in shape. Cancer, diabetes and high blood pressure run in my family. It seems pretty likely that I will have some major medical expenses in my later years. I don't feel that I would be a good person christian or not burdening my family medical bills. In my opinion you are not betting against God. It's more like saying that you know God has a plan for you and you are not worried about what happens to you just your loved ones.

I probably felt different before kids but it's true that kids change how you think about stuff.

I don't have kids but I feel insurance and 401k's and saving money is very important.

It is selfish to burden your loved ones with your debt and it is incredibly in irresponsible to keep yourself in debt just so incase the rapture comes you can have agood laugh about it.

ugh. I guess everyone is different.

NateR
07-21-2009, 10:55 PM
Most of my opinions on insurance are based on being a single guy with no dependents. So, maybe it's an issue that I just haven't given enough thought to.

I could definitely see how a man getting a life insurance policy to take care of his wife and kids when he dies would be a good idea. I certainly wouldn't condemn anyone for that.

As for the comments about debt, that is actually dealt with directly in the Bible, not just alluded to. There are several verses that strongly discourage us from going into debt. I think debt is too easily abused in our culture and it's one of the reasons that our economy is in the mess that it is.

Mark
07-24-2009, 02:03 AM
This thread was so long it took me 3 days to think about what i was going to say. First it doesn't matter to me how much money the insurance company is making. Do you worry about how much money mcdonalds is making when you order a big mac? Second i have insurance for my family so if something would happen to me then they wouldn't have to worry about money. and the same reason with health insurance. if I was single i probably wouldn't pay for health insurance.

scripturally i don't think there is anything about insurance. i just think it is wise that you have it. Mark

Mark
07-24-2009, 02:13 AM
I might actually be a little more extreme in my beliefs than you, because I'm not even sure that Christians should have savings accounts, IRAs, 401k plans, etc. That all just sounds too much like "storing up treasures here on earth" which Jesus strongly warned against.

I believe that you should have savings accounts. what if God needs me in new york city for a week and i couldn't take off of work because I didnt' have any money saved up?

God only asks for 10% so if you want to save some of the other 90% then I think you can. I would say its better to save than to buy stuff. because when you buy stuff you just want more stuff. Mark

adamt
07-24-2009, 03:07 AM
thank you mark, I sincerely appreciate your courteous reply. Like I eluded to earlier, I have gained as much respect for you on here as i have anybody, from what little i have got to know you through this forum, just reading what you say and what is said about you.... thanks again

NateR
07-24-2009, 03:17 AM
because when you buy stuff you just want more stuff. Mark

Like tractors? :Whistle:

Actually, I know that all too well with collecting Star Wars figures, comic books, CDs, etc. I remember I owned so many CDs once that I bought one of those giant 200 CD holders to put them all in. However, I didn't even come close to filling it up and, after a few months, I found myself buying CDs just to fill out my CD case. :blink:

And don't even get me started on Star Wars figures or comic books or any collectible for that matter. With collector's items, it's trying to "complete a set" that makes people feel like they HAVE TO spend more money to buy more stuff.

MattHughesRocks
07-24-2009, 03:21 AM
At least I only buy products and not stuff :)

Like tractors? :Whistle:

Actually, I know that all too well with collecting Star Wars figures, comic books, CDs, etc. I remember I owned so many CDs once that I bought one of those giant 200 CD holders to put them all in. However, I didn't even come close to filling it up and, after a few months, I found myself buying CDs just to fill out my CD case. :blink:

And don't even get me started on Star Wars figures or comic books or any collectible for that matter. With collector's items, it's trying to "complete a set" that makes people feel like they HAVE TO spend more money to buy more stuff.

Primadawn
07-24-2009, 01:12 PM
I would reply to this thread, but I'm on my way to the mall...:wink:

DonnaMaria
07-24-2009, 04:41 PM
First off I have to say that I like stuff! No actually I LOVE it!

Shoes.......cute little tops........retail therapy DOES have it's place in a life.

But I don't buy on credit. I have a debit card and it takes it right out of my account.

I'm ashamed to say that I charged a lot of things in my 20's. Life was hard, I was cut back to part time at my school, and sometimes, a lot of times, I had to charge food and clothes for the kids. Medicine too.

I had sooooooooooooo much debt!:blink:

But when I sold my first house I paid everything off and now I use my debit card when I buy things.

It means that I can't get "stuff" until I have the cold hard cash in my account, and sometimes it's hard waiting to buy things.

I don't have a flat screen TV, I don't go on nice vacations, I can't do the renovations on my house that I want to because I have to save up. But the thought of going deeply in debt again isn't an option.

As far as insurance goes.........I don't know what I would do without it.

I have a host of medical problems, RA, hypothyroidism, a curved spine.......nothing I could have prevented. And without my health insurance I would be unable to pay for my medical bills. My RA meds alone cost about 300 a month.

My youngest has a very delicate immune system. She eats right, takes vitamins gets enough sleep and exercise, but she gets infections often. Internally and externally. She has acquired a Staph infection TWICE this past year! She was in the ER both times. If not for my medical insurance I would be paying off just those visits forever!

Bonnie
07-24-2009, 05:27 PM
Like Adamt, I too, respect what you have to say, Nathan. I don't understand what he's saying about how wonderful it would be to owe lots when the rapture comes. :blink: And, it sounds like he's sitting in judgment of those of us who require medical help and are using insurance that we paid for to help us out now. I'm like Chris, I look at the doctors who are helping me right now and the insurance that we paid for that's going towards my medical care as God "providing" for me. God says that he shall provide everything we need. Doesn't that include doctors and scientists who devote their lives to finding cures for these terrible diseases like cancer. Doesn't He give man the knowledge and tools to do these things that sustain our lives which includes healing us?

I'm glad you tempered your first post, Nate, with your following posts and you recognize that we all look at things from where we stand and what we've experienced in this life. Do I think God gave me this cancer? No! Do I think God can heal me? Yes! When I pray to God to take this tumor from me and the doctors surgically remove it, I see God answering my prayers. The same with chemo. Adamt may think he is more faithful than I am, or Chris, but I would disagree. I don't question his faith like he seems to be questioning others, I question his reasoning.

Insurance and savings accounts are man-made things that whether we like it or not are a part of this life. I'm like you, Nate, in that I think we should get rebates back, or whatever they want to call it, at the end of the year for the money we put in to insurance and haven't had to use. My beef with insurance is that we pay into it as protection against something catastrophic and when something does happen, insurance companies have all these loop holes to keep from giving us back "our" money to help us when we need it. When that happens I think it is sinful because at that point they are no better than thieves who came into our homes and stole from us. But my comfort is that God sees all these things.

Mark invests in his farm equipment to do his job and provide for his family (it sounds like he's got a few collectibles too like you Nate. :laugh:) And, I'm sure he's got insurance on that equipment he depends on to do his job in order to provide for his family. :wink: We invest in insurance and savings and retirement accounts for the same reason, to provide for us and our families. I believe God gives us everything we need in order to do this. So all the glory goes to Him.

Just my view of things from where I stand... :wink:

adamt
07-24-2009, 08:16 PM
Well, quite a discussion here. I was going to ignore this thread all together after it seemed people started to make it personal. Taking offense so easily and then throwing around words like asinine, stupid, dead beat and judgmental. But I thought I don’t have to stoop to that level and just because people want to act like I am some sort of troublemaking madman, I don’t have to ignore the thread and allow that thought to persist. Because I am not.

Insurance is a new thought. It isn’t like your great-great grandparents had it when they were growing up. But somehow it has become the norm. And not only the norm but you are somehow sinning if you don’t have it.

Why is it bad of me to think that if I put all my trust in God to take care of me, that He will--- and my family! And yes, it takes a lot more faith when you are dealing with your family’s health, but that is when you know what your faith is really made of.

Chris—God didn’t heal you, the doctors did. How can you say anything else? You took the opportunity away for God to heal you. You put it in doctors and they cam through for you. You can keep telling yourself that you were blessed by God, but I strongly disagree with that. You were blessed by what you put your faith in. The doctors. Had David went out and slew Goliath with a 30.06 I don’t know how much credit we could give God for that. Like I said earlier, if you were praying (talking to God) and in came a doctor you would cut your conversation short with God and talk to the doctor, because that is where your faith is.

It seems as though we Christians want others to be amazed by our relationship with God and His Son Christ, but in reality we just do it like they do. I’m not being judgmental for anyone who has insurance or has had a disease, all I am saying is how much more credit could God receive if we only let Him work great things in our lives. But in all things we have in the backest of the back of our minds, the thought that is was in fact the doctors that healed us—just like a non Christian can boast about—and insurance that provided for us---just like the non Christians can boast about.

It’s a nice thought when we try to sound Godly by giving Him the credit, but it’s nothing that doesn’t happen everyday to people serving satan. I don’t think satan heals his people.

The thought about “give us our daily bread” came up. Well the very line before that says, Thy Will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Do you think we will need insurance in heaven?

Life insurance to take care of our family after we die? That’s just a shame. Not for the person that has it, no it’s a shame that the person feels the need, actually has the need for it. That fault lies in the church as well. We are told to take care of the widows and children. Does that get done? NO. That is why people feel they have to have some means of taking care of their children from beyond the grave, because God’s church won’t. And it takes way more faith than we possess to believe God would provide in other ways. It still seems to much like worrying about tomorrow. When Christ said clearly in His Sermon on the Mount, not to worry about tomorrow because tomorrow will worry about itself and there are plenty of worries to worry about today.

I thought I had some pretty valid points in my original post, but you can definitely tell that few people actually read it thinking they could benefit at all from it, if they read it at all. We Christians today have no ability to think critically and when I (one of your own) try to express(exhort,edify) an idea it gets cut down like I am David Koresh. We Christians just follow suit. We have to do it the way the world does it and tells us to do it and that puts God way low on our list. Even though we all like to claim He is our #1.
Whether you like to admit it or not, the “betting against God analogy” makes perfect sense.

Also, the fact that we don’t put God first, so why SHOULD He keep us healthy. I tried to express that point but failed miserably. But if you go to bed with dogs, don’t be surprised if you wake up with fleas. If you buy into the way the world does health, which is insurance and pills, then why would God give you the rewards of His Healthcare when you have not chosen Him and His way.

Do we just believe that God doesn’t work like that anymore?

And I think people’s perspectives are all skewed. Why do we judge our trials (i.e.…health, cancer, etc…) against ourselves. When compared against us it is too big, but when compared to God it is so small. We just have the problem of doubting that God will follow through. The problem with the ten spies that went to the promised land was the measuring stick they used to measure the giants. They compared the giants to themselves, they did not compare the giants against God. People pray and pray and pray for healing and when it comes to actually expecting God to heal, they just go with some crazy experimental or overly expensive treatment that only has 20 percent chance of working and then expect God to make it work. They aren’t letting God lead they are telling God how they want to be healed.



As far as credit. I would love to know how many people called me stupid for that thought, yet have some unnecessary toy or piece of garbage on credit. People love having nicer cars than they need, verses running a clunker, but that’s fine to have a debt for in their minds. “It makes me cooler” or more “intellectual” or more “respected”. How many people have bought clothes or a boat or motor home or jet ski or snowmobile, or some other non necessary “toy” on credit. That is okay. But don’t ask them to use their credit to fund God. Don’t ask them to be in debt trying to serve God. I know a man who spent five years getting enough money to but a motor home to travel the country helping build churches, free of charge. That’s five years he wasn’t serving God, because neither he nor anyone else wanted to use their credit to serve God. That might be flawed logic but so be it. I am not going to raise my family to God’s glory in a rented piece of garbage when I can afford to build a house on credit that will allow me to better serve God via my family. Which family is the highest calling to serve God by.
Debt= renting money. So debt is renting. You’re just renting money versus a tangible, like a house. If you rent a house are you in debt? Technically yes. You either return the house or borrow it for another month for so much money. Same way as a loan. You either rent the money for another month or return the money. The difference is, people are/were renting more money than they could afford, it’s just a lot harder to rent more house than you can afford, at least to be able to rent it for very long. So you might say if you enter into a contract you are in debt and that is what a loan is. Then I say, are all contracts debt? I say YES. Matt is in debt to the UFC for three fights when he signs a new contract. In DEBT. Is he a fool. No, certainly not. The ufc is renting matt. Or matt is renting the ufc, depends on how you look at it. Instead of renting money for money, as is the case of a loan. It is renting matt and his ability, his experience, all he is ---for money. Is that wrong! No, no wronger than me renting money to build a house.
They say you can tell a true Christian by the three things in his pocket. His checkbook—where he spends his money. His calendar—where he spends his time and His ipod—what he listens to. Or what he watches on t.v. And I would think God discerns the heart on those things. Why are you doing what you’re doing. For your family that is devoted to Him. For Him directly. For Yourself? I find it amazing at what I see so called Christians listen to and watch. They have no problem watching scantily clad women on t.v. be it on pro wrestling or a sitcom. Watching pornea for entertainment, purley selfish. I know of a fella that claims to be getting his pastoral license and upon finding his myspace page he listens to evil rock. F bombs all over, hateful, sinful violence in all the music on his page. Now how’s that for a Christian testimony. He would probably would hate me as much for telling him that is ungodly music as the people that will read this and hate my opinion on this and get mad at me for rebuking how Christians are. I don’t desire that to be the case, but all I can do is to tell you. That I am not judgmental and self righteous and I just do it to have a decent candid conversation about truly glorifying God with our lives. In fact most of the time when someone accuses someone else of self righteousness and judgmentalism that is just to change the subject because they know how wrong they truly are, so they question the messenger versus addressing the message. The message is the same, analyze that, don’t analyze me.

Christians need to reclaim the ability to discern scripture for themselves, versus spew rhetoric they have be taught.


And having a few thousand dollars in a savings or checking account i don't see as a problem, it is when you take your "talent" and bury it in the ground so you have it when you "need" it that is the problem. Taking God's money out of circulation, keeping it from serving Him. It's not yours, it is God's. Do you really think hoarding it is the best thing to do?

Crisco
07-24-2009, 09:37 PM
1) Well, quite a discussion here. I was going to ignore this thread all together after it seemed people started to make it personal. Taking offense so easily and then throwing around words like asinine, stupid, dead beat and judgmental. But I thought I don’t have to stoop to that level and just because people want to act like I am some sort of troublemaking madman, I don’t have to ignore the thread and allow that thought to persist. Because I am not. You can't blame everyone. Even this post that you wanted to use to clarify yourself made you come across arrogant and self-righteous. Your spent most of this post gloryifying your faith in God and spitting holier then though aura.

2) Insurance is a new thought. It isn’t like your great-great grandparents had it when they were growing up. But somehow it has become the norm. And not only the norm but you are somehow sinning if you don’t have it. How many of our grandparents and older relatives spent their lives living in gutters and dying in shacks because they didn't have the option of insurance? Whether you like insurance or not it has done a lot of good.

3) Why is it bad of me to think that if I put all my trust in God to take care of me, that He will--- and my family! And yes, it takes a lot more faith when you are dealing with your family’s health, but that is when you know what your faith is really made of. I think the problem with your way of thinking is you seem to expect God to give you everything I prefer to work hard and if God deems me fit for further blessing he'll give it. You do not need to sit on your couch waiting for God to make your dinner divinely appear to be considered a strong Christian.

4)Chris—God didn’t heal you, the doctors did. How can you say anything else? You took the opportunity away for God to heal you. You put it in doctors and they cam through for you. You can keep telling yourself that you were blessed by God, but I strongly disagree with that. You were blessed by what you put your faith in. The doctors. Had David went out and slew Goliath with a 30.06 I don’t know how much credit we could give God for that. Like I said earlier, if you were praying (talking to God) and in came a doctor you would cut your conversation short with God and talk to the doctor, because that is where your faith is. You don't know anything about Chris so don't assume. This is where you get holier then thou and it drives me up a wall. For someone who claims to have such a strong faith in the will of God you should see that nothing happens without God's will. IF the doctors heal Chris it is because God worked through them and allowed him to be healed. God doesn't just make things appear all the time he works through others to get to those he would like to assist

5)It seems as though we Christians want others to be amazed by our relationship with God and His Son Christ, but in reality we just do it like they do. I’m not being judgmental for anyone who has insurance or has had a disease, all I am saying is how much more credit could God receive if we only let Him work great things in our lives. But in all things we have in the backest of the back of our minds, the thought that is was in fact the doctors that healed us—just like a non Christian can boast about—and insurance that provided for us---just like the non Christians can boast about. This is where you are wrong. We don't want anyone to be amazed by our faith we want them to be inspired by it. We want to inspire others to be saved not for them to look at us in awe that is borderline idolatry. No Christian should crave to be revered merely respected and hopefully emulated in faith.

6)It’s a nice thought when we try to sound Godly by giving Him the credit, but it’s nothing that doesn’t happen everyday to people serving satan. I don’t think satan heals his people. I don't think he does either but healing is relative. If a murder is shot and survives perhaps the devil fixed his leg but nothing about that man is healed. His soul is still in horrible danger


7)The thought about “give us our daily bread” came up. Well the very line before that says, Thy Will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Do you think we will need insurance in heaven? When the disciples needed food Jesus sent them to catch fish and jesus supplied them by increasing their bounty but the fact remains that Jesus had the fish caught before he handed them the bounty. Work for your blessing don't just expect God to owe you one.



8)Whether you like to admit it or not, the “betting against God analogy” makes perfect sense. Bullcrap. just because something is relative to your arguement doesn't mena it makes perfect sense. I will never bet against God his will is most definately done but that doesn't mean I don't shape my own existance through free will. If I choose to sit on my fat ass all day I am hardly glorfying God. Through hardwork and dedication to works and faith I'll hope to earn that blessing not just recieve it like I'm some Obama supporter.

9)Also, the fact that we don’t put God first, so why SHOULD He keep us healthy. I tried to express that point but failed miserably. But if you go to bed with dogs, don’t be surprised if you wake up with fleas. If you buy into the way the world does health, which is insurance and pills, then why would God give you the rewards of His Healthcare when you have not chosen Him and His way. Those pills come from Gods creation. God has often used and molded the earth to fullfill his will how do you know he hasn't used the earth to produce those medicines to heal his people? The use of medicine to save someones life often leads them to gloryfying God and can most definately lead to some saved souls along the way. Anything that inspires people to faith in Jesus Christ is most definately ok in my book

10)Do we just believe that God doesn’t work like that anymore? God works however he chooses. How do you know he doesn't put the will to work hard and overcome in our hearts? You assume quite a bit my friend and think you automatically know better. We all read the bible and it's not always black and white.

11) They aren’t letting God lead they are telling God how they want to be healed. No they are making effort to help themselves and show God they want to live. You can get more with medicine and prayer then medicine alone



12)As far as credit. I would love to know how many people called me stupid for that thought, yet have some unnecessary toy or piece of garbage on credit. You said you planned on racking up as much debt as you could and hoping your raptured. That I said was stupid. God warns us again becoming indebted and how dare you insult that man who saved up for that ca,per so he could build churches. God doesn't care about 5 years wasted. Time means very little to God he caresabout the soul and that man definately has his heart in the right place and I hope God blesses him with long life so he can continue his works.

Responses in red

TexasRN
07-24-2009, 10:18 PM
This thread reminds me of a joke.

There's a guy sitting in his living room watching tv. The news warns of torrential rain with flooding imminent. The cops come around knocking on doors telling people to evacuate. He says, "I am going to pray to the Lord to be saved. I have nothing to fear." Then he closes the door and sits back down. Waters begin to rise and finally he's forced to his upstairs rooms. A boat with rescue crew comes by and offers to rescue him. He replies, "My God will save me. I have nothing to fear," and he refuses to go with them. Finally as the water continues to rise he sits on the roof of his house and a helicopter comes over. They lower a basket for him to get into. He again refuses saying, "I have faith. My God will save me." Well the guy drowns. When he gets to Heaven he asks God, "Lord, why didn't you save me? I had faith." God tells him, "What more did you expect? I sent the cops, a boat, and a helicopter." :laugh:



~Amy

Rev
07-24-2009, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by adamt
How much more awesome would it have been if you let God provide the whole 85,000? Not trying to be snide, it's just hard for me not to feel like we sell God short sometimes.


If I break my arm and the bone is coming out of the skin, should I?:

A:go see a doctor, QUICK!!

B:tell everyone to come over and watch because I am gonna let God provide the healing like I know he can and I dont want to sell him short.


When I was growing up, I was pooooooor! I aint talking about living check to check poor. I mean my mom, my 2 sisters, and I lived in a ford escort at one point. When I wanted to go on church trips we couldnt afford it. I missed alot because of my family being poor. But then all of a sudden, I started getting to go on these trips and doing all the things with the other kids at church. I knew we didnt have anymore money than before, but I was still getting to go. I later found out it was because one of the women in our church had lost her husband and his life insurance was more than she would ever need and she wanted to make sure that all the children at our church would get to have all the fun that God had in store for them.

This changed the way I think about saving, I am a preacher so I will most likely never be wealthy while on earth. I try and save as mutch as I can for my kids and others that God may put in my path. I also like to save so I can do things with my family. I think saving up for retirement is AWESOME!!! What better way to appreciate the land that God gave us, than to be able to retire and go go go and bring the family.

While I see your point, I dont agree. Well thought out none the less.

BTW you werent kidding about it being a long post!!! Good Lord!!!:wacko:

Rev
07-24-2009, 10:56 PM
The thought about “give us our daily bread” came up. Well the very line before that says, Thy Will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Do you think we will need insurance in heaven?



Will we have sickness is heaven?

adamt
07-24-2009, 11:35 PM
I think the problem with your way of thinking is you seem to expect God to give you everything I prefer to work hard ...............


Work for your blessing don't just expect God to owe you one



News flash--- it ain't a blessing if you earned it.


I think the problem with your way of thinking is you actually believe you can earn God's love, mercy, blessings and grace. That pretty much responds to all of your other responses.

I suppose you "prefer to work hard" for your salvation too.

Yeah that's the problem with the ten spies that came back, they didn't think they could work hard enough to conquer the land so why try?


WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO IS YOU PREFER TO TRUST YOURSELF INSTEAD OF GOD. If I am "Bragging about my faith" by saying I place my faith in Him instead of myself then I guess I am bragging. But I trust Him, not myself, not doctors, not insurance.




I have never live a lifestyle that would cause me to get cancer.

Crisco works for his salvation and Chris doesn't think he did anything wrong. I'm sorry but I think we all deserve alot worse than we get because of our sin and there's nothing we can do to earn it. It is a SHAME so many people are trying to earn it. I thought y'all just had a lack of faith in an Almighty God, little did I know you were trying to earn His blessings. That's exactly against the bible, a lie the devil loves. You have to earn it. God doesn't GIVE! God doesn't fulfill His promises. He didn't mean what He said.


I might get a little sarcastic or caustic, or my jest might come off arogant but it seems as though the people on here with the real respect(mark, nate), can still manage to hold a respectful, productive dialogue while disagreeing with me 180 degrees or just a little bit. And it seems others like rev and play the man will soon have respect becasue of the way they present themselves.
I think the ladies that all responded were pretty much diametrically opposed to my opinion and they managed to keep the drama and cattiness to a minimum.

You can tell others just like making fights if they can.

We all read the bible and it's not always black and white.

interesting quote, i heard a homosexual pro choicer say that the other day, people who like to take out of the bible what they want, and make the rest fuzzy- say that alot. I think you crisco are one of the people who like to hear and pass along, but don't read your own bible. How many times have you read the bible through? I know that sounds like I am being prideful that I read my bible, but i can't help that. You should read some of the stuff paul has told about himself. Or some of the sarcastic remarks James made.

Anyways, I bet if you were arrested today for being a christian there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict you. Other than what you say or type or claim you believe. I bet your life doesn't look much different than a non-christian. What you watch, where you spend your money, what you listen to, what you do with your free time. I bet the only stuff you know from the bible has come from someone else telling you what to believe, versus you meditating on it yourself.

I think if you lived in Christ's day you would have made an excellent pharisee or sadduccee.

There---- how's that for arrogant? It's only arrogant if it isn't true and I actually claimed to be better than you. I haven't claimed to be better than you and only you and God know if it's true. And I wouldn't expect you to admit to it on here

crisco said:

You don't know anything about Chris so don't assume

but it seems like you assume plenty, reading into what I say, and putting words in my mouth. You haven't had a problem assuming about me.

It seems to me if I were out of line with how I said something you surely could have had a little love towards a fellow christian. Or do you assume I'm not a christian. It is obvious you and Chris think you are way more mature Christians than I am, aren't you obligated to show compassion to us weaker brethren.

adamt
07-24-2009, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by adamt



If I break my arm and the bone is coming out of the skin, should I?:

A:go see a doctor, QUICK!!

B:tell everyone to come over and watch because I am gonna let God provide the healing like I know he can and I dont want to sell him short.


When I was growing up, I was pooooooor! I aint talking about living check to check poor. I mean my mom, my 2 sisters, and I lived in a ford escort at one point. When I wanted to go on church trips we couldnt afford it. I missed alot because of my family being poor. But then all of a sudden, I started getting to go on these trips and doing all the things with the other kids at church. I knew we didnt have anymore money than before, but I was still getting to go. I later found out it was because one of the women in our church had lost her husband and his life insurance was more than she would ever need and she wanted to make sure that all the children at our church would get to have all the fun that God had in store for them.

This changed the way I think about saving, I am a preacher so I will most likely never be wealthy while on earth. I try and save as mutch as I can for my kids and others that God may put in my path. I also like to save so I can do things with my family. I think saving up for retirement is AWESOME!!! What better way to appreciate the land that God gave us, than to be able to retire and go go go and bring the family.






If you break your arm, tell everyone the devil did it, then go to the doctor and get him to fix it then tell everyone for the rest of your life that God healed it for you, gave you the money to do it by a worldly insurance company and you owe Him everything.


ATTENTION!!!!! DISCLAIMER BELOW FOR ANY THIN SKINNED PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE TAKEN OFFENSE TO THE ABOVE RESPONSE!!!
(rev-- i hope you know i was saying that tongue in cheek and wasn't serious and didn't mean anything personal by it)


Yeah we had a casino that wanted to give our church alotta of money because they had made so much money off of the citizens in our community, and they wanted to make sure that all the children at our church would get to have all the fun that God had in store for them, so that made it okay!!!


ATTENTION ANTOHER DISCLAIMER BELOW

Sorry rev, that might have been a little too sarcastic, from what I can tell though, you can take it. I think you bring allot to the discussion. I have no problem with you making sarcastic responses back to me, such as the quote above about a broken arm. It makes for lively conversation. Just no need to call me stupid or assinine, when you disagree with me. And don't get mad if I amke them back.

Rev
07-25-2009, 01:04 AM
I didnt call you anything brother. You can "amke" any response you want.:blink: :tongue0011:

I Dont feel like this is as much a faith issue as it is an intentions issue.

Even Jesus used investing in a way, to teach in parables.

Rev
07-25-2009, 01:08 AM
What about the kids that accepted Christ on those trips that the old widdow payed for. I am glad her husband didnt feel the same as you about insurance, and I bet a few people who got to go hear about a man named Jesus because of it are glad as well.

Chris F
07-25-2009, 01:15 AM
Well, quite a discussion here. I was going to ignore this thread all together after it seemed people started to make it personal. Taking offense so easily and then throwing around words like asinine, stupid, dead beat and judgmental. But I thought I don’t have to stoop to that level and just because people want to act like I am some sort of troublemaking madman, I don’t have to ignore the thread and allow that thought to persist. Because I am not.

Insurance is a new thought. It isn’t like your great-great grandparents had it when they were growing up. But somehow it has become the norm. And not only the norm but you are somehow sinning if you don’t have it.

Why is it bad of me to think that if I put all my trust in God to take care of me, that He will--- and my family! And yes, it takes a lot more faith when you are dealing with your family’s health, but that is when you know what your faith is really made of.

Chris—God didn’t heal you, the doctors did. How can you say anything else? You took the opportunity away for God to heal you. You put it in doctors and they cam through for you. You can keep telling yourself that you were blessed by God, but I strongly disagree with that. You were blessed by what you put your faith in. The doctors. Had David went out and slew Goliath with a 30.06 I don’t know how much credit we could give God for that. Like I said earlier, if you were praying (talking to God) and in came a doctor you would cut your conversation short with God and talk to the doctor, because that is where your faith is.

It seems as though we Christians want others to be amazed by our relationship with God and His Son Christ, but in reality we just do it like they do. I’m not being judgmental for anyone who has insurance or has had a disease, all I am saying is how much more credit could God receive if we only let Him work great things in our lives. But in all things we have in the backest of the back of our minds, the thought that is was in fact the doctors that healed us—just like a non Christian can boast about—and insurance that provided for us---just like the non Christians can boast about.

It’s a nice thought when we try to sound Godly by giving Him the credit, but it’s nothing that doesn’t happen everyday to people serving satan. I don’t think satan heals his people.

The thought about “give us our daily bread” came up. Well the very line before that says, Thy Will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Do you think we will need insurance in heaven?

Life insurance to take care of our family after we die? That’s just a shame. Not for the person that has it, no it’s a shame that the person feels the need, actually has the need for it. That fault lies in the church as well. We are told to take care of the widows and children. Does that get done? NO. That is why people feel they have to have some means of taking care of their children from beyond the grave, because God’s church won’t. And it takes way more faith than we possess to believe God would provide in other ways. It still seems to much like worrying about tomorrow. When Christ said clearly in His Sermon on the Mount, not to worry about tomorrow because tomorrow will worry about itself and there are plenty of worries to worry about today.

I thought I had some pretty valid points in my original post, but you can definitely tell that few people actually read it thinking they could benefit at all from it, if they read it at all. We Christians today have no ability to think critically and when I (one of your own) try to express(exhort,edify) an idea it gets cut down like I am David Koresh. We Christians just follow suit. We have to do it the way the world does it and tells us to do it and that puts God way low on our list. Even though we all like to claim He is our #1.
Whether you like to admit it or not, the “betting against God analogy” makes perfect sense.

Also, the fact that we don’t put God first, so why SHOULD He keep us healthy. I tried to express that point but failed miserably. But if you go to bed with dogs, don’t be surprised if you wake up with fleas. If you buy into the way the world does health, which is insurance and pills, then why would God give you the rewards of His Healthcare when you have not chosen Him and His way.

Do we just believe that God doesn’t work like that anymore?

And I think people’s perspectives are all skewed. Why do we judge our trials (i.e.…health, cancer, etc…) against ourselves. When compared against us it is too big, but when compared to God it is so small. We just have the problem of doubting that God will follow through. The problem with the ten spies that went to the promised land was the measuring stick they used to measure the giants. They compared the giants to themselves, they did not compare the giants against God. People pray and pray and pray for healing and when it comes to actually expecting God to heal, they just go with some crazy experimental or overly expensive treatment that only has 20 percent chance of working and then expect God to make it work. They aren’t letting God lead they are telling God how they want to be healed.



As far as credit. I would love to know how many people called me stupid for that thought, yet have some unnecessary toy or piece of garbage on credit. People love having nicer cars than they need, verses running a clunker, but that’s fine to have a debt for in their minds. “It makes me cooler” or more “intellectual” or more “respected”. How many people have bought clothes or a boat or motor home or jet ski or snowmobile, or some other non necessary “toy” on credit. That is okay. But don’t ask them to use their credit to fund God. Don’t ask them to be in debt trying to serve God. I know a man who spent five years getting enough money to but a motor home to travel the country helping build churches, free of charge. That’s five years he wasn’t serving God, because neither he nor anyone else wanted to use their credit to serve God. That might be flawed logic but so be it. I am not going to raise my family to God’s glory in a rented piece of garbage when I can afford to build a house on credit that will allow me to better serve God via my family. Which family is the highest calling to serve God by.
Debt= renting money. So debt is renting. You’re just renting money versus a tangible, like a house. If you rent a house are you in debt? Technically yes. You either return the house or borrow it for another month for so much money. Same way as a loan. You either rent the money for another month or return the money. The difference is, people are/were renting more money than they could afford, it’s just a lot harder to rent more house than you can afford, at least to be able to rent it for very long. So you might say if you enter into a contract you are in debt and that is what a loan is. Then I say, are all contracts debt? I say YES. Matt is in debt to the UFC for three fights when he signs a new contract. In DEBT. Is he a fool. No, certainly not. The ufc is renting matt. Or matt is renting the ufc, depends on how you look at it. Instead of renting money for money, as is the case of a loan. It is renting matt and his ability, his experience, all he is ---for money. Is that wrong! No, no wronger than me renting money to build a house.
They say you can tell a true Christian by the three things in his pocket. His checkbook—where he spends his money. His calendar—where he spends his time and His ipod—what he listens to. Or what he watches on t.v. And I would think God discerns the heart on those things. Why are you doing what you’re doing. For your family that is devoted to Him. For Him directly. For Yourself? I find it amazing at what I see so called Christians listen to and watch. They have no problem watching scantily clad women on t.v. be it on pro wrestling or a sitcom. Watching pornea for entertainment, purley selfish. I know of a fella that claims to be getting his pastoral license and upon finding his myspace page he listens to evil rock. F bombs all over, hateful, sinful violence in all the music on his page. Now how’s that for a Christian testimony. He would probably would hate me as much for telling him that is ungodly music as the people that will read this and hate my opinion on this and get mad at me for rebuking how Christians are. I don’t desire that to be the case, but all I can do is to tell you. That I am not judgmental and self righteous and I just do it to have a decent candid conversation about truly glorifying God with our lives. In fact most of the time when someone accuses someone else of self righteousness and judgmentalism that is just to change the subject because they know how wrong they truly are, so they question the messenger versus addressing the message. The message is the same, analyze that, don’t analyze me.

Christians need to reclaim the ability to discern scripture for themselves, versus spew rhetoric they have be taught.


And having a few thousand dollars in a savings or checking account i don't see as a problem, it is when you take your "talent" and bury it in the ground so you have it when you "need" it that is the problem. Taking God's money out of circulation, keeping it from serving Him. It's not yours, it is God's. Do you really think hoarding it is the best thing to do?


All I know is when they first scanned me I had tumors the size of racquetball and they were active. I was prayed for and I believe God healed me so I had them scan me again. The scans showed the tumors were now less than 2 cm and were no longer active. They did the chemo to try and eradicate the rest of the tumors. They are still there but are no longer cancerous. So for you to say God did not heal me and man did when the tumors shrunk and stopped being active before I even had a single dose of chemo is foolishness. You are free to your opinion no matter how wrong it is. So get off your high horse and never question my faith till you walked in my shoes sir.

Chris F
07-25-2009, 01:19 AM
Responses in red

Well said crisco. God is not a cosmic bell hop. He only promises food & Drink, cloths. The rest he expects us to work for. Also he said if a man does not work he does not eat so there is conditions either way. To sit and demand God to be your flunky is nto faith but outright pride in ones faith. He needs to go back and take a gander at Matthew 6:24-34

Chuck
07-25-2009, 01:20 AM
So first you were against insurance and now you're against medicine too? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Rev
07-25-2009, 01:21 AM
Come on guys!!! Relax, when did this turn into a war?

This isnt a "who is the better Christian" contest, or a "lets see if we can make this guy mad" thread.

I thank God for his healing powers and for using doctors to do his will.

Chris F
07-25-2009, 01:31 AM
News flash--- it ain't a blessing if you earned it.


I think the problem with your way of thinking is you actually believe you can earn God's love, mercy, blessings and grace. That pretty much responds to all of your other responses.

I suppose you "prefer to work hard" for your salvation too.

Yeah that's the problem with the ten spies that came back, they didn't think they could work hard enough to conquer the land so why try?


WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO IS YOU PREFER TO TRUST YOURSELF INSTEAD OF GOD. If I am "Bragging about my faith" by saying I place my faith in Him instead of myself then I guess I am bragging. But I trust Him, not myself, not doctors, not insurance.






Crisco works for his salvation and Chris doesn't think he did anything wrong. I'm sorry but I think we all deserve alot worse than we get because of our sin and there's nothing we can do to earn it. It is a SHAME so many people are trying to earn it. I thought y'all just had a lack of faith in an Almighty God, little did I know you were trying to earn His blessings. That's exactly against the bible, a lie the devil loves. You have to earn it. God doesn't GIVE! God doesn't fulfill His promises. He didn't mean what He said.


I might get a little sarcastic or caustic, or my jest might come off arogant but it seems as though the people on here with the real respect(mark, nate), can still manage to hold a respectful, productive dialogue while disagreeing with me 180 degrees or just a little bit. And it seems others like rev and play the man will soon have respect becasue of the way they present themselves.
I think the ladies that all responded were pretty much diametrically opposed to my opinion and they managed to keep the drama and cattiness to a minimum.

You can tell others just like making fights if they can.


interesting quote, i heard a homosexual pro choicer say that the other day, people who like to take out of the bible what they want, and make the rest fuzzy- say that alot. I think you crisco are one of the people who like to hear and pass along, but don't read your own bible. How many times have you read the bible through? I know that sounds like I am being prideful that I read my bible, but i can't help that. You should read some of the stuff paul has told about himself. Or some of the sarcastic remarks James made.

Anyways, I bet if you were arrested today for being a christian there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict you. Other than what you say or type or claim you believe. I bet your life doesn't look much different than a non-christian. What you watch, where you spend your money, what you listen to, what you do with your free time. I bet the only stuff you know from the bible has come from someone else telling you what to believe, versus you meditating on it yourself.

I think if you lived in Christ's day you would have made an excellent pharisee or sadduccee.

There---- how's that for arrogant? It's only arrogant if it isn't true and I actually claimed to be better than you. I haven't claimed to be better than you and only you and God know if it's true. And I wouldn't expect you to admit to it on here

crisco said:

You don't know anything about Chris so don't assume

but it seems like you assume plenty, reading into what I say, and putting words in my mouth. You haven't had a problem assuming about me.

It seems to me if I were out of line with how I said something you surely could have had a little love towards a fellow christian. Or do you assume I'm not a christian. It is obvious you and Chris think you are way more mature Christians than I am, aren't you obligated to show compassion to us weaker brethren.

adamt- I have been a minister for 10 years and a Christian for 30 years. No one is saying we are better than you. What we are saying is your faith is in your faith itself and not in God. The bible does not teach anywhere that we should be like the Israelites in the wilderness and simply wake up and collect manna and wait for God to do everything for us. Paul rebuked the Thessalonians to go back to work or else they would not eat. Nearly every blessing of God has an if. If you pray this will happen. If you obey my word then this will happen. By what you are saying here is that you are to good to do the if's. My guess is you have been brainwashed by the Word of Faith movement or the seeker sensitive (emergent church). Both groups place man at the center and make it all about them and God is obligated to serve them. If you have scriptural support for you beliefs then by all means share them. Please show us where it says to sit back and let God do everything for you. Give us this day our daily bread has nothing to do with substance. Who is the bread of life? Our daily bread is Jesus Christ.

Chuck
07-25-2009, 01:35 AM
adamt- I have been a minister for 10 years and a Christian for 30 years. No one is saying we are better than you. What we are saying is your faith is in your faith itself and not in God. The bible does not teach anywhere that we should be like the Israelites in the wilderness and simply wake up and collect manna and wait for God to do everything for us. Paul rebuked the Thessalonians to go back to work or else they would not eat. Nearly every blessing of God has an if. If you pray this will happen. If you obey my word then this will happen. By what you are saying here is that you are to good to do the if's. My guess is you have been brainwashed by the Word of Faith movement or the seeker sensitive (emergent church). Both groups place man at the center and make it all about them and God is obligated to serve them. If you have scriptural support for you beliefs then by all means share them. Please show us where it says to sit back and let God do everything for you. Give us this day our daily bread has nothing to do with substance. Who is the bread of life? Our daily bread is Jesus Christ.

If I were in your congregation right now I'd be the guy yelling...

AMEN Pastor Preach it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rev
07-25-2009, 01:41 AM
The quote being used "give us this day, our daily bread", is from when Jesus was giving an example of how to pray. He was putting everything into perspective for us as far as our prayers go. Jesus is our spiritual daily bread, yes, but Jesus was showing us that we should ask for things we need after we recognize his holiness and seek his will.

How cool is it that we serve a God who wants us to pray to him and he gives us a model of how to do it?

adamt
07-25-2009, 01:48 AM
I didnt call you anything brother. You can "amke" any response you want.:blink: :tongue0011:

I Dont feel like this is as much a faith issue as it is an intentions issue.

Even Jesus used investing in a way, to teach in parables.


See now.... why can't everyone take and give some good jabbing like rev? He can make his points while he is at it!

adamt
07-25-2009, 01:51 AM
So first you were against insurance and now you're against medicine too? Or am I misunderstanding you?


you're misunderstanding me, i in no way implies treatment was ungodly. That's stretching alot, even when trying to put words in my mouth.

Rev
07-25-2009, 01:52 AM
Deer God,

I thank you that I am not like the rest of these sinners.

JUST KIDDING!!! That was a joke.

Can anyone tell me where it is from?

Chuck
07-25-2009, 01:53 AM
you're misunderstanding me, i in no way implies treatment was ungodly. That's stretching alot, even when trying to put words in my mouth.

Um... if I was stretching or trying to put words in your mouth I wouldn't have asked for clarification.... :huh:

Chris F
07-25-2009, 01:54 AM
The quote being used "give us this day, our daily bread", is from when Jesus was giving an example of how to pray. He was putting everything into perspective for us as far as our prayers go. Jesus is our spiritual daily bread, yes, but Jesus was showing us that we should ask for things we need after we recognize his holiness and seek his will.

Rev put it in context of the entire sermon on the mount. Notice it is a few verses before he talks about material items. What phrase follows our daily bread.....Forgive us our debt (sins) Prayer is not about begging God for things. Prayer is an act of worship recognizing He is God and we are not. This goes right along with Pauls later teaching of dying daily. Daily bread etc etc. See the connection? Remember when Jesus was talking about mana from heaven? It came daily. The crowd would have correlated that with Jesus' comments here. In the same sermon he also said he was the bread of life. Matthew is not in historical order it is divided into section of topics. Luke is chronological so it is better to use for contexual study. You may disagree with me and I can accept that, but grammatically and contextually daily Bread should be Jesus in our lives. Things are not as important as Him.

One can certainly make moder application for our daily needs, but when you look at the entirety of scripture as it pertains to prayer, it is rare to see people praying for things. There are some but as a general rule it is not.

I respect what you are saying and I do personally pray God meets my daily needs. I just do not see that Jesus is teaching that in those verses. I would not die for that belief but I feel pretty strong about it.

Chris F
07-25-2009, 01:57 AM
In response to Rev's post #50

Luke 18:11 What do I win?

adamt
07-25-2009, 02:05 AM
adamt- I have been a minister for 10 years and a Christian for 30 years. No one is saying we are better than you. What we are saying is your faith is in your faith itself and not in God. The bible does not teach anywhere that we should be like the Israelites in the wilderness and simply wake up and collect manna and wait for God to do everything for us. Paul rebuked the Thessalonians to go back to work or else they would not eat. Nearly every blessing of God has an if. If you pray this will happen. If you obey my word then this will happen. By what you are saying here is that you are to good to do the if's. My guess is you have been brainwashed by the Word of Faith movement or the seeker sensitive (emergent church). Both groups place man at the center and make it all about them and God is obligated to serve them. If you have scriptural support for you beliefs then by all means share them. Please show us where it says to sit back and let God do everything for you. Give us this day our daily bread has nothing to do with substance. Who is the bread of life? Our daily bread is Jesus Christ.

I'm very surprised at the straws being grasped at here.....



I'm not the one who quoted give us this day our daily bread.... I was counterpointing another's point...

I'm the very opposite of word of faith and purpose driven churches. But it would be my guess that you can't find anything good in rick warren, and look to demean him like you are doing to me, just because we don't see eye to eye....

And I think what you just accused me of is what I have been accusing you of. I accuse you of putting faith in yourself youaccuse me of (and I quote) "your faith is in your faith itself " , i am happy putting faith in faith versus putting faith in myself.


I would give you a whole list of scriptures that support me but you can twist them any way you like to suit your own beliefs. I gave you the scripture of letting tomorrow worry about itself from the sermon on the mount. Insurance is all about worrying about tomorrow. But I'm sure you will have some clever way to make that verse mean something it didn't mean. Give me a satisfactory dismissal of that one and i will give you more.

Just keep trying to work your way to heaven and God's blessings and we'll see where you get.

And if you think you are going to upset me by accusing me of sitting around doing nothing, then that's a joke. I don't have to defend myself to you with how hard I work. I am happy knowing there is no way you could keep up with me. Anyone with a post count over a thousand has little to no life, and way too much time to spend on here yapping about meaningless stuff. Unless it's your job, like say NateR. It would be quite a bit more understandable if you're single and childless too, i say if you are on here much and have a family shame on you. But don't tell me i sit on my butt when you're the ones with huge post counts that amount to nothing but self fulfillment.

In fact the sermon on the mount makes the point that if he can clothe the grass of the field as beautifully as he does, don't you think He will take care of His own children all the more?

adamt
07-25-2009, 02:07 AM
Um... if I was stretching or trying to put words in your mouth I wouldn't have asked for clarification.... :huh:


i apologize... a little too much on the defensive there :ashamed:

let me just say no, i don't abhor medical treatment.

adamt
07-25-2009, 02:09 AM
[QUOTE=Chris F]adamt- I have been a minister for 10 years and a Christian for 30 years. QUOTE]

i don't ask this for any other reason but curiosity, that is why i put it in a new reply not in another one of my "defensive" postings,

What are you a minister of?

What credentials?

Again i don't say that snidely, just sincerely.

Rev
07-25-2009, 02:09 AM
I understand what you are saying and see your point and even preached it that way before. After I did a study last year on the sermon on the mount, I came to realize this. The first thing I do with any scripture is put it into it's context.

I am like you, this is not a bridge that I am willing to die for.

Rev
07-25-2009, 02:10 AM
In response to Rev's post #50

Luke 18:11 What do I win?
The title of pharisee!!!:wink: JK

Chris F
07-25-2009, 02:30 AM
I'm very surprised at the straws being grasped at here.....



I'm not the one who quoted give us this day our daily bread.... I was counterpointing another's point...

I'm the very opposite of word of faith and purpose driven churches. But it would be my guess that you can't find anything good in rick warren, and look to demean him like you are doing to me, just because we don't see eye to eye....

And I think what you just accused me of is what I have been accusing you of. I accuse you of putting faith in yourself you accuse me of (and I quote) "your faith is in your faith itself " , i am happy putting faith in faith versus putting faith in myself.


I would give you a whole list of scriptures that support me but you can twist them any way you like to suit your own beliefs. I gave you the scripture of letting tomorrow worry about itself from the sermon on the mount. Insurance is all about worrying about tomorrow. But I'm sure you will have some clever way to make that verse mean something it didn't mean. Give me a satisfactory dismissal of that one and i will give you more.

Just keep trying to work your way to heaven and God's blessings and we'll see where you get.

And if you think you are going to upset me by accusing me of sitting around doing nothing, then that's a joke. I don't have to defend myself to you with how hard I work. I am happy knowing there is no way you could keep up with me. Anyone with a post count over a thousand has little to no life, and way too much time to spend on here yapping about meaningless stuff. Unless it's your job, like say NateR. It would be quite a bit more understandable if you're single and childless too, i say if you are on here much and have a family shame on you. But don't tell me i sit on my butt when you're the ones with huge post counts that amount to nothing but self fulfillment.

In fact the sermon on the mount makes the point that if he can clothe the grass of the field as beautifully as he does, don't you think He will take care of His own children all the more?

1- my post count is nowhere near a 1000 talk about stretching it. :wink:

2- Faith in anything but Jesus Christ (this includes faith itself) is an abomination to Christ and an insult to what he did for us on the cross.

3- Insurance has noting to do with worrying about food drink and clothes stop proof texting. You need real support not some cherry picked out of context verses. Insurance is an investment. God wants us to do more with our life then bury our talents and wait for him to come back. I can give a lot more to missions and such if I am not forking over thousands to doctors because I was not a good steward for my family.

4- The sermon on the mount is crystal clear. It is all about seeking the Kingdom. This I think we can all agree. Worry destroys that. This is why Jesus says not to worry about the basics He has those covered. The rest on the other hand belong to our stewardship abilities. It goes back to the James dilemma. Faith w/o works is dead. Faith that does not produce action is pointless. Kinda like the points on Whose line is it anyways? :) (sorry could not resist)

5- I have no desire to upset you. In fact, I wish the opposite. My hope is you look at your post and see how your post were inflammatory and outright belligerent and repent for the discord you have caused. I can only speak for myself here, but all I can say is you have made alot of accusation and innuendos with little or nor biblical support.

Stop taking it personal and simply show us our errant beliefs with book chapter and verse. I do not mean it to be personal in anyway even though you did make it personal and accuse me of a lack of faith for going to the doctor and paying with medical insurance.

Chris F
07-25-2009, 02:32 AM
[QUOTE=Chris F]adamt- I have been a minister for 10 years and a Christian for 30 years. QUOTE]

i don't ask this for any other reason but curiosity, that is why i put it in a new reply not in another one of my "defensive" postings,

What are you a minister of?

What credentials?

Again i don't say that snidely, just sincerely.

I do not think you are being snide or defensive at all. This is a forum so it is hard to tell how a persona takes things or how they mean it as well I am a ordained minister of the Assemblies of God

Chris F
07-25-2009, 02:34 AM
I understand what you are saying and see your point and even preached it that way before. After I did a study last year on the sermon on the mount, I came to realize this. The first thing I do with any scripture is put it into it's context.

I am like you, this is not a bridge that I am willing to die for.


:) Have you seen the movie "The Wager" w/ Randy Travis? He tries to live his life by the Beattitudes and find it is near impossible in this day and age. It is pretty good. You can buy it at most Wal Marts for 9.00

Chris F
07-25-2009, 02:35 AM
The title of pharisee!!!:wink: JK

:angry: I want a real prize :punch: JK :Whistle:

adamt
07-25-2009, 03:20 AM
1- my post count is nowhere near a 1000 talk about stretching it. :wink:

3- God wants us to do more with our life then bury our talents and wait for him to come back.

4- Faith that does not produce action is pointless.


5- My hope is you look at your post and see how your post were inflammatory and outright belligerent and repent for the discord you have caused. I can only speak for myself here, but all I can say is you have made alot of accusation and innuendos with little or nor biblical support.

Stop taking it personal and simply show us our errant beliefs with book chapter and verse. .

okay i see this thread is dying....thankfully. it seems we can put it to rest for the most part still tolerating each other :)

I will make a couple simple quick points for you to rebut then you can have the last word

1. i wasn't talking about your post count....

2. everyone has faith, i say --your action determines who you have faith in... in doctors or God, in yourself or God, in insurance salesman or God a little to one and a lot to another maybe, but where is your faith actually put? Not where you say it is put, but where it is evidenced out at?

3. the ironic thing is, is that my pastor is a full time insurance salesman all week, no point there, just ironic

4. no.... no one else is arrogant.... just me....:wacko:

5. your third point must mean you don't believe in savings, that you proactively use your assetts to glorify him huh ? :Whistle: or are you going to twist that principle as well

Chris F
07-25-2009, 04:01 AM
okay i see this thread is dying....thankfully. it seems we can put it to rest for the most part still tolerating each other :)

I will make a couple simple quick points for you to rebut then you can have the last word

1. i wasn't talking about your post count....
Well you did quote me so what else was I do think

2. everyone has faith, i say --your action determines who you have faith in... in doctors or God, in yourself or God, in insurance salesman or God a little to one and a lot to another maybe, but where is your faith actually put? Not where you say it is put, but where it is evidenced out at?

Going to a doctor does not show a lack of faith and neither does taking a pill or prescription. It is sad you would think your twisted theology is somehow correct. If you had scripture you would back it up and not run away

3. the ironic thing is, is that my pastor is a full time insurance salesman all week, no point there, just ironic
:laugh: I find that funny as well as revealing. You obviously follow a man you do not agree with. Why follow this pastor if he has no faith

4. no.... no one else is arrogant.... just me....:wacko:
Not all. James says put you life in action to your faith. read it some time

5. your third point must mean you don't believe in savings, that you proactively use your assetts to glorify him huh ? :Whistle: or are you going to twist that principle as well
Not at all. I think savings is real prudent and there is no better investment the the kingdom of God and the winning of souls.



responses in red above

The simple fact is scripture says to consider the cost before you do things. I consider the cost to my family if I have to seek medical care. So I choose insurance.

Luke 14:28-33 (New International Version)

28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

Play The Man
07-25-2009, 08:47 AM
I don't have a theological education or any such bona fides; however, I can recommend some resources that I think would be helpful in this discussion. It seems that many of these difficulties are addressed in the Doctrines of Vocation and Providence (for Providence see next post).

Here is a very brief (2 page) article by Gene Veith, a Lutheran, about the Doctrine of Vocation:http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/WRHC/076_Masks%20of%20God.PDF
When I go into a restaurant, the waitress who brings me my meal, the cook in the back who
prepared it, the delivery men, the wholesalers, the workers in the food-processing factories, the
butchers, the farmers, the ranchers, and everyone else in the economic food chain are all being
used by God to “give me this day my daily bread.”
This is the doctrine of vocation. God works through people, in their ordinary stations of life to
which He has called them, to care for His creation. In this way, He cares for everyone—
Christian and non-Christian—whom He has given life.
Luther puts it even more strongly: Vocations are “masks of God.” On the surface, we see an
ordinary human face—our mother, the doctor, the teacher, the waitress, our pastor—but, beneath
the appearances, God is ministering to us through them. God is hidden in human vocations.
The other side of the coin is that God is hidden in us. When we live out our callings—as
spouses, parents, children, employers, employees, citizens, and the rest—God is working through
us. Even when we do not realize it, when we fulfill our callings, we too are masks of God.
Our relationship with God is based solely on His grace and initiative, what He has done for us in
Christ, and not by any works of our own. Our relationship with our neighbors, though, does
involve our “works.” As Gustav Wingren, in his classic book Luther on Vocation, summarized
Luther, “God does not need our good works. But our neighbor does.”
During the Reformation, Luther denied that those who sought to base their salvation on their
good works—allegedly “serving God” through their ceremonies, fasts and elaborate spiritual
disciplines and mortifications of the flesh—were actually doing good works at all. “Who are you
helping?” he would ask. A work that is truly good has to be of actual benefit to one’s neighbor.
In the spiritual kingdom, it is not a question of serving God with our works: He serves us through
His works, in Word and Sacrament, which bring us into the redemption He achieved in the work
of Jesus Christ. But the faith of the Christian bears fruit naturally and even unconsciously in
love for one’s neighbor, a love whose source is God and which is carried out in vocation.

I bolded various words and phrases which refer back in some way to prior posts in this thread (the thread is too long and the posts too long to quote each one!). Veith expands on this article in more depth in his book: God At Work: Your Christian Vocation In All Of Lifehttp://www.amazon.com/God-Work-Christian-Vocation-Focal/dp/1581344031.

Play The Man
07-25-2009, 09:15 AM
The Doctrine of Providence is also implied in many of the posts in this thread. R. C. Sproul writes about Providence in his book: The Invisible Hand: Do All Things Really Work For Good?http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hand-Things-Really-Library/dp/0875527094/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248508151&sr=1-11

Below is a section of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (1.17.4)which addresses an aspect of Providence that I think deserves clarifying:
4. As regards future events, Solomon easily reconciles human deliberation with divine providence. For while he derides the stupidity of those who presume to undertake anything without God, as if they were not ruled by his hand, he elsewhere thus expresses himself: 187“A man’s heart deviseth his ways but the Lord directeth his steps,” (Prov. 16:9); intimating, that the eternal decrees of God by no means prevent us from proceeding, under his will, to provide for ourselves, and arrange all our affairs. And the reason for this is clear. For he who has fixed the boundaries of our life, has at the same time entrusted us with the care of it, provided us with the means of preserving it, forewarned us of the dangers to which we are exposed, and supplied cautions and remedies, that we may not be overwhelmed unawares. Now, our duty is clear, namely, since the Lord has committed to us the defence of our life,—to defend it; since he offers assistance,—to use it; since he forewarns us of danger,—not to rush on heedless; since he supplies remedies,—not to neglect them. But it is said, a danger that is not fatal will not hurt us, and one that is fatal cannot be resisted by any precaution. But what if dangers are not fatal, merely because the Lord has furnished you with the means of warding them off, and surmounting them? See how far your reasoning accords with the order of divine procedure: You infer that danger is not to be guarded against, because, if it is not fatal, you shall escape without precaution; whereas the Lord enjoins you to guard against its just because he wills it not to be fatal. These insane cavillers overlook what is plainly before their eyes—viz. that the Lord has furnished men with the artful of deliberation and caution, that they may employ them in subservience to his providence, in the preservation of their life; while, on the contrary, by neglect and sloth, they bring upon themselves the evils which he has annexed to them. How comes it that a provident man, while he consults for his safety, disentangles himself from impending evils; while a foolish man, through unadvised temerity, perishes, unless it be that prudence and folly are, in either case, instruments of divine dispensation? God has been pleased to conceal from us all future events that we may prepare for them as doubtful, and cease not to apply the provided remedies until they have either been overcome, or have proved too much for all our care. Hence, I formerly observed, that the Providence of God does not interpose simply; but, by employing means, assumes, as it were, a visible form.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iii.xviii.html

I think that the verse, Deuteronomy 29:29 is important for this thread: 29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." We don't know the "secret things" (e.g. will we get cancer?). We cannot claim promises that have not been made (e.g. we will not get cancer); however, we have been given promises concerning our justification. We need to cling to, and focus on, our justification.

Tyburn
07-25-2009, 03:41 PM
I tend to aggree with Chris about the fact that you should really take out insurance. Not so much in this country, because its fully run on taxes...but Life insurance would be good if you didnt want your family to have to pay a shed load on your death.

I dont have contents insurance for anything I own...but thats because nothing I own is of great financial value.

Tyburn
07-25-2009, 03:43 PM
I'm also willing to accept the possibility that my disdain of savings accounts might really be a subconscious rationalization for the fact that I really suck at saving money.:laugh:
.
:laugh: :laugh:

Tyburn
07-25-2009, 03:47 PM
Most of my opinions on insurance are based on being a single guy with no dependents.




There are several verses that strongly discourage us from going into debt. I think debt is too easily abused in our culture and it's one of the reasons that our economy is in the mess that it is.
Me neither...I mean, if your on your own, you dont need to save or plan financially for a family sized support system.

TRUE DAT

Tyburn
07-25-2009, 03:53 PM
Well, quite a discussion here. I was going to ignore this thread all together after it seemed people started to make it personal. Taking offense so easily and then throwing around words like asinine, stupid, dead beat and judgmental. But I thought I don’t have to stoop to that level and just because people want to act like I am some sort of troublemaking madman, I don’t have to ignore the thread and allow that thought to persist. Because I am not.

Insurance is a new thought. It isn’t like your great-great grandparents had it when they were growing up. But somehow it has become the norm. And not only the norm but you are somehow sinning if you don’t have it.

Why is it bad of me to think that if I put all my trust in God to take care of me, that He will--- and my family! And yes, it takes a lot more faith when you are dealing with your family’s health, but that is when you know what your faith is really made of.

Chris—God didn’t heal you, the doctors did. How can you say anything else? You took the opportunity away for God to heal you. You put it in doctors and they cam through for you. You can keep telling yourself that you were blessed by God, but I strongly disagree with that. You were blessed by what you put your faith in. The doctors. Had David went out and slew Goliath with a 30.06 I don’t know how much credit we could give God for that. Like I said earlier, if you were praying (talking to God) and in came a doctor you would cut your conversation short with God and talk to the doctor, because that is where your faith is.

It seems as though we Christians want others to be amazed by our relationship with God and His Son Christ, but in reality we just do it like they do. I’m not being judgmental for anyone who has insurance or has had a disease, all I am saying is how much more credit could God receive if we only let Him work great things in our lives. But in all things we have in the backest of the back of our minds, the thought that is was in fact the doctors that healed us—just like a non Christian can boast about—and insurance that provided for us---just like the non Christians can boast about.

It’s a nice thought when we try to sound Godly by giving Him the credit, but it’s nothing that doesn’t happen everyday to people serving satan. I don’t think satan heals his people.

The thought about “give us our daily bread” came up. Well the very line before that says, Thy Will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Do you think we will need insurance in heaven?

Life insurance to take care of our family after we die? That’s just a shame. Not for the person that has it, no it’s a shame that the person feels the need, actually has the need for it. That fault lies in the church as well. We are told to take care of the widows and children. Does that get done? NO. That is why people feel they have to have some means of taking care of their children from beyond the grave, because God’s church won’t. And it takes way more faith than we possess to believe God would provide in other ways. It still seems to much like worrying about tomorrow. When Christ said clearly in His Sermon on the Mount, not to worry about tomorrow because tomorrow will worry about itself and there are plenty of worries to worry about today.

I thought I had some pretty valid points in my original post, but you can definitely tell that few people actually read it thinking they could benefit at all from it, if they read it at all. We Christians today have no ability to think critically and when I (one of your own) try to express(exhort,edify) an idea it gets cut down like I am David Koresh. We Christians just follow suit. We have to do it the way the world does it and tells us to do it and that puts God way low on our list. Even though we all like to claim He is our #1.
Whether you like to admit it or not, the “betting against God analogy” makes perfect sense.

Also, the fact that we don’t put God first, so why SHOULD He keep us healthy. I tried to express that point but failed miserably. But if you go to bed with dogs, don’t be surprised if you wake up with fleas. If you buy into the way the world does health, which is insurance and pills, then why would God give you the rewards of His Healthcare when you have not chosen Him and His way.

Do we just believe that God doesn’t work like that anymore?

And I think people’s perspectives are all skewed. Why do we judge our trials (i.e.…health, cancer, etc…) against ourselves. When compared against us it is too big, but when compared to God it is so small. We just have the problem of doubting that God will follow through. The problem with the ten spies that went to the promised land was the measuring stick they used to measure the giants. They compared the giants to themselves, they did not compare the giants against God. People pray and pray and pray for healing and when it comes to actually expecting God to heal, they just go with some crazy experimental or overly expensive treatment that only has 20 percent chance of working and then expect God to make it work. They aren’t letting God lead they are telling God how they want to be healed.



As far as credit. I would love to know how many people called me stupid for that thought, yet have some unnecessary toy or piece of garbage on credit. People love having nicer cars than they need, verses running a clunker, but that’s fine to have a debt for in their minds. “It makes me cooler” or more “intellectual” or more “respected”. How many people have bought clothes or a boat or motor home or jet ski or snowmobile, or some other non necessary “toy” on credit. That is okay. But don’t ask them to use their credit to fund God. Don’t ask them to be in debt trying to serve God. I know a man who spent five years getting enough money to but a motor home to travel the country helping build churches, free of charge. That’s five years he wasn’t serving God, because neither he nor anyone else wanted to use their credit to serve God. That might be flawed logic but so be it. I am not going to raise my family to God’s glory in a rented piece of garbage when I can afford to build a house on credit that will allow me to better serve God via my family. Which family is the highest calling to serve God by.
Debt= renting money. So debt is renting. You’re just renting money versus a tangible, like a house. If you rent a house are you in debt? Technically yes. You either return the house or borrow it for another month for so much money. Same way as a loan. You either rent the money for another month or return the money. The difference is, people are/were renting more money than they could afford, it’s just a lot harder to rent more house than you can afford, at least to be able to rent it for very long. So you might say if you enter into a contract you are in debt and that is what a loan is. Then I say, are all contracts debt? I say YES. Matt is in debt to the UFC for three fights when he signs a new contract. In DEBT. Is he a fool. No, certainly not. The ufc is renting matt. Or matt is renting the ufc, depends on how you look at it. Instead of renting money for money, as is the case of a loan. It is renting matt and his ability, his experience, all he is ---for money. Is that wrong! No, no wronger than me renting money to build a house.
They say you can tell a true Christian by the three things in his pocket. His checkbook—where he spends his money. His calendar—where he spends his time and His ipod—what he listens to. Or what he watches on t.v. And I would think God discerns the heart on those things. Why are you doing what you’re doing. For your family that is devoted to Him. For Him directly. For Yourself? I find it amazing at what I see so called Christians listen to and watch. They have no problem watching scantily clad women on t.v. be it on pro wrestling or a sitcom. Watching pornea for entertainment, purley selfish. I know of a fella that claims to be getting his pastoral license and upon finding his myspace page he listens to evil rock. F bombs all over, hateful, sinful violence in all the music on his page. Now how’s that for a Christian testimony. He would probably would hate me as much for telling him that is ungodly music as the people that will read this and hate my opinion on this and get mad at me for rebuking how Christians are. I don’t desire that to be the case, but all I can do is to tell you. That I am not judgmental and self righteous and I just do it to have a decent candid conversation about truly glorifying God with our lives. In fact most of the time when someone accuses someone else of self righteousness and judgmentalism that is just to change the subject because they know how wrong they truly are, so they question the messenger versus addressing the message. The message is the same, analyze that, don’t analyze me.

Christians need to reclaim the ability to discern scripture for themselves, versus spew rhetoric they have be taught.


And having a few thousand dollars in a savings or checking account i don't see as a problem, it is when you take your "talent" and bury it in the ground so you have it when you "need" it that is the problem. Taking God's money out of circulation, keeping it from serving Him. It's not yours, it is God's. Do you really think hoarding it is the best thing to do?
:huh: WTF...Thats just such a FUBAR thing to say. So GOD is incapable of working through the Doctors is he? What did we say before..about the fact you cant stop the right time to die...what did the Doctors Save poor Chris when GOD wanted to take him home? Who is more powerful here??

What YOU mean is that GOD didnt preform an absolute miracle. You know, I dont demand of GOD that he perform exciting tricks. You cant ASSUME The GOD will intervene in the natural order everytime a Christian gets sick.

If you really believe that, then you are very foolish indeed.

Tyburn
07-25-2009, 03:57 PM
News flash--- it ain't a blessing if you earned it.


It seems to me if I were out of line with how I said something you surely could have had a little love towards a fellow christian. Or do you assume I'm not a christian. It is obvious you and Chris think you are way more mature Christians than I am, aren't you obligated to show compassion to us weaker brethren.
NEWS FLASH

if everything belongs to GOD, you cant "Earn" anything that doesnt belong to Him. Ergo everything is a blessing.

:ninja:

Why should anyone show you a little love, when you dont show a little love yourself???

Tyburn
07-25-2009, 04:11 PM
you're misunderstanding me, i in no way implies treatment was ungodly. That's stretching alot, even when trying to put words in my mouth.
yes you were.

Thats exactly what you were saying EXACTLY what you were saying.

You said that because Chris had been healed by Doctors, that he had robbed GOD of the chance to Heal him. So...its not a huge leap to assume that if we wish not to rob GOD of the chance, we avoid Doctors, for they heal, presumably without the help of GOD...they can stop GOD from producing miracles also...because you said that by going to the doctors, GOD hadnt been given the chance to Heal Chris.

So the Doctors changed GODs Plans huh?
Poor GOD sidelined by measly Doctors again, one wonders how he copes

:rolleyes:

I have absolutely no tollerance for time wasters, who like to shrink my GOD and make him incompetant and stupid, or unable...This Section is filling with people who claim to be Christian...but who dont seem to understand the very basic capacities of GOD...in one thread you have people dissagreeing with scientific principles, because obvious GOD didnt create the laws of Science, and so lets save GOD from the evils of Science lest it spoil Genesis...Like Science was able to over-rule GOD...in a second thread you have the worry that GOD cant even manage to keep perfectly intacts a few dozen manuscripts over the coure of less then two millenia, or the unspeakable thought that perhaps te Church has the power to create Scripture all of its bloody own...Now we have "hey guys, Trust in GOD, because he will provide for you...all you need to do is NOTHING" like GOD is some kinda dumbass lucky charm that will produce miracles on tap for your viewing pleasure!

Wasnt this section supposed to be about Christians supporting other Christians...not a religious free-for-all on what little GOD can do, or what GOD will do for you if you do little yourself.

Its very irritating which is why I gave this thread a miss for a while. But I'm so shocked by the foolish admament statements of some people who, lurker, or not, seem shocked that some well established patrons just might feel like they are being demonized by someone we know virtually nothing about, and whose views of GOD are very centred on what GOD can do for him, and not the bloody other way round. That wouldnt come as a suprise to anyone who had been paying the slightest bit of attention over the course of the last three years...one wonders if Adamt sits infront of his computer with it unpluged, and calls upon GOD to supply the energy so he may interact with others on this forum :mellow:

Boomer
07-25-2009, 05:44 PM
:laugh:

This reminds me of a joke I once heard.

<aaahhhummmm>

So a man is sitting in his home in New Orleans and hears on the news that a CAT 5 Hurrican is coming and the entire city will be under 10 feet of water within the next 72 hours. The man, fearful of his life calls out to God "PLEASE!! HELP ME!!!". Surprisingly God answers the man audibly and says, "FEAR NOT MY CHILD I WILL SURLY SAVE YOU!!!" Well the man was so exited he peed a little.

So the next day he is sitting on his front porch and the water is already upto the steps. A Police officer comes by in a Chevy 4x4 and says, "Sir, you must come with me now ... this place is going to be underwater in a few days. grab a few things and lets go!!" The man sitting in his rocking chair says, "Nope ... God said he was going to save me .. I heard it!" So the police officer drives off.

The next day the man is sitting on his second story ledge dangling his feet in the water and the same police officer comes by in a boat. The officer calls out, "Sir please come with me, God will understand .. this is a very dangerous situation!" To that the man replies, " Nope, God said he was going to save me .. I heard it!!" So the police officer jets off.

The next day the man is hanging on his chimney and the water is up around his feet ... the same police officer comes back in a helecopter and through a megaphone says, "SIR this is your last chance. I will not be able to come back ... please .... come with me!!" The man looking up yells back, "NOPE, GOD SAID HE WAS GOING TO SAVE ME ... I HEARD IT!!!" So the police officer flies off.

10 mins later . .the man drowns.

So up in heaven, he is standing at the pearly gates and God hovers by shaking his head.

"GOD" the man cried ... "YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO SAVE ME!!"

God looking at the man said, "well I tried to. I sent a chevy 4x4, a boat and a helicopter but you were to stupid to get in!" :D

:laugh:

I think Jesus delt with this basic principal when the Pharisees were trying to trap him in saying something they could accuse him of and they asked about paying taxes. 'Give to God what is God's, give to Ceaser what is Ceasers." God doesn't need our money. Insurance, public schools, doctors all are apart of the society we live in. If they have turned secular over the past decades its failure on the churchs part for their lack of involvment, not people who have not found God yet. Of course they are going to be corrupt. making Christian bubbles in society and attacking the institutions that in part has made this nation as great as it is is pretty foolish in my estimation. It's not a lack of faith to use the structures in place that help keep us alive and healthy, or take care of our loved ones after we pass.

For the people who don't go to doctor's or leverage anything society has to offer in the way of health (insurance included) I say:

Proverbs 10:21 the lips of the righteous nourish many, but fools die from lack of judgement.

Ecclesiastes 7:17 Don't be overwicked and do not be a fool - why die before your time.

NateR
07-25-2009, 05:59 PM
Ecclesiastes 7:17 Don't be overwicked and do not be a fool - why die before your time.

Ecclesiastes 7:16-17 is one of my favorite passages from the Bible and it completely changed the way I viewed and understood Christianity. I like verse 16 the best:

Do not be overly righteous,
Nor be overly wise:
Why should you destroy yourself? (NKJV)

In other words, you're going to sin and do stupid things, it's inevitable. Just don't spend so much time dwelling on your mistakes that you forget about GOD.

Boomer
07-25-2009, 06:03 PM
Ecclesiastes 7:16-17 is one of my favorite passages from the Bible and it completely changed the way I viewed and understood Christianity. I like verse 16 the best:

Do not be overly righteous,
Nor be overly wise:
Why should you destroy yourself? (NKJV)

In other words, you're going to sin and do stupid things, it's inevitable. Just don't spend so much time dwelling on your mistakes that you forget about GOD.


that was one of 5 I really liked and helped keep me grounded. I'm having a hard time remembering the others .... amazing how I use to just rattle them off. I have a slightly different interpretation on that then what you wrote .. but yea its a good one. 16 was the one I use to read not 17 ... odd how Matt quoted one and so did you ... maybe God is trying to tell me something. :laugh:

warriorlion
07-25-2009, 06:29 PM
I guess for me, the issue seems to be what your looking at with the insurance. I agree that storing up treasures for yourself is not the best thing to do, but it boils down to your motivation.

I have worked in fianance and isurance for a nuber of years, so since I sell insurace for a living that makes be a bad person???

I dont think so, my motivation in doing my job is to provide for my family, in the same ilk I have insurance not for myself. As it happens as a UK citizen I get national insurance for health care, so if I am sick, I dont pay for treatment as I do that each month through no choice of my own.

However I hae life insurance on my home, if I die, it gets paid. Thats not storing up treasure for myself, coz when I am dead, I dont get to enjoy it. my family however are provided for.

The bible tells us to be good stewards, that is what having insurance allows us to do.

Insurance is estimating the likelihood of a risk that will cause a loss, and the cost that will be incurred to return a situation to its original order.

If your motivation is all about bringing in financial reward to yourself, ie sport people that insurace parts of their body so if they get injured they get a pay out, for me tahts storing up treasures on earth. Because those people can even after an injury get a 'normal' job.

But for me, insurance is not about what I will gain, its about looking after my family in the event that I am unable to provide for them, since I believe that God has blessed me with the ability to work to do just that.

Now I have experienced God blessing my family when I was out of work and unable to pay the bills, so I dont think for a second taht God needs me to provide for my family, I know full well taht God will look afer my family with or without my help, but I beliee that He has provided me with skills to do that job. I am God's provision to my family, and God is my provision, God provided me with the job I have.

Thats not me puttin my faith in something other thn God, I know God gave me the job I currently have, because I didnt want to go to the interview, and my wife reminded me of something I prayed to God, if He opeed the doors for an interview I would honour Him by giving it my best shot, and the interview for this job I do now, I did not want to go, I was going to skip it, until my wife reminded me of my prayer, and you know what , I went to the interview, it was the 6th or 7th that week, I sent out 100 cv's and job applications. Only one job offer came from all my efforts, the one that I did not want to go to.
For me that was God's provision. To allow me to provide for my family, while He provided for me to be able to do that.

My view on insurance is much the same. Yeah insurance is a business, but do you question the same thing when you opened a bank account, or when you go into your job. Its about making money.

But its about where your heart and motivation is.
The bible teaches us where your treasure is so is your heart, for me my treasure is God and my family and the too work hand in hand, so I do all i can to look out for both things.

For God I do all I can to live the way he teaches and to share His glory through my life, I dont always do a good job, but I try everyday, for my family I pray over them every night and work hard to bring in the money to support them.

Whats your motivation???

Boomer
07-25-2009, 06:32 PM
Whats your motivation???


:cry: :cry: Gummy bears .... :cry: :cry: I admit .... its gummy bears... :cry:

I need to hug this out .... whos got me?? :cry: :cry:



:D


Seriously I hear yea bro... :wink:

adamt
07-25-2009, 06:52 PM
I think Jesus delt with this basic principal when the Pharisees were trying to trap him in saying something they could accuse him of and they asked about paying taxes. 'Give to God what is God's, give to Ceaser what is Ceasers." God doesn't need our money. Insurance, public schools, doctors all are apart of the society we live in. If they have turned secular over the past decades its failure on the churchs part for their lack of involvment, not people who have not found God yet. Of course they are going to be corrupt. making Christian bubbles in society and attacking the institutions that in part has made this nation as great as it is is pretty foolish in my estimation. It's not a lack of faith to use the structures in place that help keep us alive and healthy, or take care of our loved ones after we pass.





Boomer should teach others how to make valid points without having to demean and insult those they are counterpointing

Play The Man
07-25-2009, 06:53 PM
In other words, you're going to sin and do stupid things, it's inevitable. Just don't spend so much time dwelling on your mistakes that you forget about GOD.
Martin Luther said the same thing in a letter to Philip Melanchthon:
If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world.
http://oldlutheran.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/homebrew_150.gif

adamt
07-25-2009, 06:54 PM
NEWS FLASH

if everything belongs to GOD, you cant "Earn" anything that doesnt belong to Him. Ergo everything is a blessing.

:ninja:

Why should anyone show you a little love, when you dont show a little love yourself???


Exactly!!! tell those guys to stop claiming they earned it then!!!! Or deserve it!!

Boomer
07-25-2009, 06:59 PM
Martin Luther said the same thing in a letter to Philip Melanchthon:

http://oldlutheran.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/homebrew_150.gif


Bravo .... Nice quote!! I'm going to jot that down ..

Boomer
07-25-2009, 07:05 PM
Boomer should teach others how to make valid points without having to demean and insult those they are counterpointing

About the only thing I'm good at teaching is chair dancing .... I give 1/2 off to forum members ..... :blink: PM me if interested ...

:D

adamt
07-25-2009, 07:20 PM
yes you were.

Thats exactly what you were saying EXACTLY what you were saying.

No i said trusting doctors with hit and miss treatments is unfaithful to God not ungodly

You said that because Chris had been healed by Doctorswell according to chris the doctors didn't heal him, God did. Don't claim God is going to use doctors that don't even know Him to heal His own children. Did Chris make sure his doctors were born of the Spirit? I doubt it. How can the Spirit work in them if He doesn't even know them. , that he had robbed GOD of the chance to Heal him. So...its not a huge leap to assume that if we wish not to rob GOD of the chance, we avoid Doctors, for they heal, presumably without the help of GOD...I'm so tired of christians trusting in doctors and giving God glory. God don't want that glory. If David killed Goliath with an uzi then gave God the glory WOOHOO!?!?!? God didn't work there, the uzi did. Just give credit where credit is due.... to the doctors. that's where your faith is anywaysthey can stop GOD from producing miracles also...yep.... lack of faith inhibits miracles, thus yes, His plan could have changedbecause you said that by going to the doctors, GOD hadnt been given the chance to Heal Chris.

So the Doctors changed GODs Plans huh?
Poor GOD sidelined by measly Doctors again, one wonders how he copes

God planned on letting the israelites right into the promised land, was His will changed? you bet it was, when they moaned and groaned they got stuck in the wilderness 40 years. Or do you think that was his original plan? And if you notice He still provided for them. With quail and manna

:rolleyes:

I have absolutely no tollerance for time wasters, who like to shrink my GOD and make him incompetant and stupid, or unable...yeah Shrink your God by not trusting Him and instead getting insurance to take care of themThis Section is filling with people who claim to be Christian...but who dont seem to understand the very basic capacities of GOD...like living sanctified from the world, different from what they hold to....like insurance,not listening to worldly music, watching worldly entertainment, actually spending His money on Him....in one thread you have people dissagreeing with scientific principles, because obvious GOD didnt create the laws of Science, and so lets save GOD from the evils of Science lest it spoil Genesis...Like Science was able to over-rule GOD...in a second thread you have the worry that GOD cant even manage to keep perfectly intacts a few dozen manuscripts over the coure of less then two millenia, or the unspeakable thought that perhaps te Church has the power to create Scripture all of its bloody own...Now we have "hey guys, Trust in GOD, because he will provide for you...all you need to do is NOTHING"no, i said stop taking God out of the picture, Trusting in God isn't Nothing. Obeying God isn't nothing. Yall are just trying to earn blessing. His grace is given freely not with strings attached or becasue you deserve it. You go and proactively seek help away from God, under the montra that you're working for His blessing like GOD is some kinda dumbass lucky charm that will produce miracles on tap for your viewing pleasure!

Wasnt this section supposed to be about Christians supporting other Christians...not a religious free-for-all on what little GOD can dosaying God has to have doctors and insurance to protect and provide for His people is as bad as saying He can't sanctify The Word for the last two thousand years, insurance belittles God, NOT EXPECTING HIM TO FOLLOW THRU WITH HIS PROMISES TO PROTECT AND PROVIDE, or what GOD will do for you if you do little yourself.

Its very irritating which is why I gave this thread a miss for a while. But I'm so shocked by the foolish admament statements of some people who, lurker, or not, seem shocked that some well established patrons just might feel like they are being demonized by someone we know virtually nothing about, and whose views of GOD are very centred on what GOD can do for him,i guess i should be helping God out down here by getting some insurance so it's easier for Him to take care of me and not the bloody other way round. That wouldnt come as a suprise to anyone who had been paying the slightest bit of attention over the course of the last three years...one wonders if Adamt sits infront of his computer with it unpluged, and calls upon GOD to supply the energy so he may interact with others on this forum if God promised to do that I wouldn't take His money to buy power with, to get on here. He didn't promise to do that, so I have worked to earn it myself and now i can look back and tell you what a miracle it is that my computer is working so I can get on here. PRAISE GOD HE BLESSED ME WITH MORE POWER!!!:mellow:


responses in red of course,


bottom line..... christians are NO DIFFERENT from the non christians today..... just what they say they believe, no more faith, no less sin--they just try to hide it and use grace to cover it, doctors heal christians and non christians the same way, Only christians keep telling them selves they were healed by God, and non christians know better. They know it was the doctors, they just admit that God wasn't allowed to be a part of it. There is no God in the Hospital just like there is no God at school

Chuck
07-25-2009, 08:05 PM
Boomer should teach others how to make valid points without having to demean and insult those they are counterpointing

perhaps you could be his first student? :wink:

NateR
07-25-2009, 08:11 PM
bottom line..... christians are NO DIFFERENT from the non christians today..... just what they say they believe, no more faith, no less sin--they just try to hide it and use grace to cover it,

Which is EXACTLY the point:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

doctors heal christians and non christians the same way, Only christians keep telling them selves they were healed by God, and non christians know better. They know it was the doctors, they just admit that God wasn't allowed to be a part of it. There is no God in the Hospital just like there is no God at school

Sounds like you are putting more limitations on GOD than on anything else.

But, I think you would be better off arguing these points without the safe anonymity of the internet. Go talk to a cancer patient or a Christian in a wheelchair face-to-face and explain to them how their medical condition is because of their unbelief. It's easy to condemn people when you can hide behind a keyboard, but you really need to explain to these people face-to-face how their illness or handicap is their fault.

Chuck
07-25-2009, 08:16 PM
responses in red of course,


bottom line..... christians are NO DIFFERENT from the non christians today..... just what they say they believe, no more faith, no less sin--they just try to hide it and use grace to cover it, doctors heal christians and non christians the same way, Only christians keep telling them selves they were healed by God, and non christians know better. They know it was the doctors, they just admit that God wasn't allowed to be a part of it. There is no God in the Hospital just like there is no God at school

There is no God in the Hospital and no God at school? What do you say to all the Christian health care providers and educators?

You're an angry little man aren't you?

If we were to follow your thinking (which is completely flawed btw) then any and all glory for killing Goliath should go to a rock. Now perhaps if David talked to the rock first.. checked to see if the Spirit of God was alive and well inside the rock... then... ONLY then could we give some credit to God...

otherwise the glory goes to the rock according to you. Uzi, rock... same difference... it's just a tool used by a man.

So God can only be glorified when he works through believers? You talk and talk and talk but you're not saying anything...

I don't think you're here to learn or "test" a theory.. I think you're simply here to hear yourself talk. In the end you've spent the last few days simply trying to sound smart and bring glory to yourself and your presumed intellect.

You come across as arrogant and self righteous and you're so high up on your own pedestal nobody can hear a word you're saying...

warriorlion
07-25-2009, 08:48 PM
Adam,

just wanted to pick up something from your Uzi comment.

David with his sling shot, he would have been well versed in using it, would have used it to fight off bears and wolves long before Goliath.

Watched a really interesting programme recently called Deadilest warrior, and a guy on there used a sling and managed to get something like 60 mph, on a ballistics dummy the guy put his shot through its nose and smashed the ballistic dummys skull.

This from a guy that would not use the sling everyday like David would have.

David would have had real skill with the sling, yet God still used that skill. God had put the skills in David long before he met Goliath, had already placed the skills to defeat Goliath into david.

That said I dont think its inconcievable that God would place provision for his Children in people that dont know Him.

Play The Man
07-25-2009, 09:20 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534805,00.html?test=latestnews

WAUSAU, Wis. — A Wisconsin man accused of killing his daughter by praying instead of seeking lifesaving medical help considered her illness "a test of his faith," a prosecutor told jurors Saturday.

Dale Neumann, 47, is a "full-Gospel Christian," who did not know his 11-year-old daughter had diabetes, his defense attorney said. There's also not "a shred of evidence" Neumann knew his prayers would fail to help his daughter or cause her death, the lawyer said.

Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the 2008 death of his daughter Madeline Neumann, called Kara by her parents. His wife, Leilani, was convicted of the same charge this spring and faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6.

The girl died from undiagnosed diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying at the family's rural home in Weston in central Wisconsin. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

Prosecutors contend Neumann recklessly killed the youngest of his four children by ignoring her deteriorating health. They claim the girl was too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk and Neumann had a legal duty to take her to a doctor.

AdamT, please read this story and give your opinion on the actions of the parents. Thank you.

adamt
07-25-2009, 11:21 PM
But, I think you would be better off arguing these points without the safe anonymity of the internet. Go talk to a cancer patient or a Christian in a wheelchair face-to-face and explain to them how their medical condition is because of their unbelief. It's easy to condemn people when you can hide behind a keyboard, but you really need to explain to these people face-to-face how their illness or handicap is their fault.

lung cancer, HPV,AIDS, heart disease, diabetes, ulcers, liver chirrosis,STD's, etc.... do you actually think these "just happen"

Do you think that it is unfair for God to allow to happen to us what we set ourselves up for? All the diseases I listed are a result in some form or another of sin. Whether the person did it knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or accidentally, that's the bare facts.

I guess I will recant one part of my belief. If you are going to drink, smoke, sleep around, worry, overeat, or other sinful behaviors, then you better get some insurance. But most sin has consequences. If you don't want to face the consequences of your sin then get some insurance. You're prolly right. God ain't gonna take care of you.

Yeah, never mind, it's not anyone's fault, it's God's fault

adamt
07-25-2009, 11:22 PM
perhaps you could be his first student? :wink:


man.....touche.... i set you up for that one didn't i?:sad: :laugh:

adamt
07-25-2009, 11:30 PM
There is no God in the Hospital and no God at school? What do you say to all the Christian health care providers and educators?

You're an angry little man aren't you?i know i hit some nerves when people resort to personal insults :laugh:

If we were to follow your thinking (which is completely flawed btw) then any and all glory for killing Goliath should go to a rock. Now perhaps if David talked to the rock first.. checked to see if the Spirit of God was alive and well inside the rock... then... ONLY then could we give some credit to God...

otherwise the glory goes to the rock according to you. Uzi, rock... same difference... it's just a tool used by a man.i didn't say the uzi got the glory, part of the magnificence of david and goliath was how david killed goliath, why didn't God just have Saul kill goliath with his sword? It was the means that the person used

So God can only be glorified when he works through believers? YES!!!!!!!!! don't people know any basic, and i mean basic theology? The only work God will do in an unbeliever is to invite Him to accept Christ as savior, God DOES NOT WORK in unbelievers, the Spirit is not in them to work!!!!!You talk and talk and talk but you're not saying anything...Great point here, more insults which i could easily say about everyone else

I don't think you're here to learn or "test" a theory.. I think you're simply here to hear yourself talk. In the end you've spent the last few days simply trying to sound smart and bring glory to yourself and your presumed intellect. And you are just hoping to get a pat on the back from other forum members for "putting me in my place", noooooooo, thats not personal selfish motivation or anything, that is honorabnle and noble!!!

You come across as arrogant and self righteous and you're so high up on your own pedestal nobody can hear a word you're saying... Funny..... that is what they kept telling all the people you claim to believe in.....Paul, Jesus, Peter, John..... truth is, people are so set in their ways they refused to even PONDER a new thought that might challenge their personal worldview

Chris F
07-25-2009, 11:42 PM
lung cancer, HPV,AIDS, heart disease, diabetes, ulcers, liver chirrosis,STD's, etc.... do you actually think these "just happen"

Do you think that it is unfair for God to allow to happen to us what we set ourselves up for? All the diseases I listed are a result in some form or another of sin. Whether the person did it knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or accidentally, that's the bare facts.

I guess I will recant one part of my belief. If you are going to drink, smoke, sleep around, worry, overeat, or other sinful behaviors, then you better get some insurance. But most sin has consequences. If you don't want to face the consequences of your sin then get some insurance. You're prolly right. God ain't gonna take care of you.

Yeah, never mind, it's not anyone's fault, it's God's fault

So what about the little kids with leukemia. Newborns who while getting a transfusion in the hospital contract aids. What did they do to deserve, Is your god that vengeful Adam? I encourage you to repent and come to the God of the bible and not the one you have invented in your mind.

adamt
07-25-2009, 11:55 PM
yeah, i see chris is the type of guy that says "what about the people who were raped! we have to make all abortions legal because people have conceived by rape! "

I can honestly say that I have actually pondered your guys' points and I highly doubt that many have pondered mine.

I don't see how ANYONE can think i am more self righteous than chris "I encourage you to repent and come to the God of the bible and not the one you have invented in your mind." F. Who certainly can do no wrong and didn't possibly deserve to get cancer cause he never sinned, and has EVERYTHING figured out. And has earned God's favor and health.

I'll go back to lurking. I won't say anymore. Have at it. I feel like the guy who went to a gay and lesbian board and tried to tell them homosexuality was a sin. Not the guy who went to a christian thread and tried to make my point. I know you guys sure spread the love of Christ, It's no wonder you consider yourselves super saints. If I wasn't a christian before, count me in!!!!! I want some of what you guys have!!!! Even If I was wrong. I'm sure the people on the gay forums "know" that sodomy isn't a sin either. I loved it in men in black, how tommy lee jones was telling will smith what we "knew". We "knew" the earth was flat. we "knew" the earth was at the center of the solar system. Heck galilieo was excommunicated, becasue he "wrongly" believed the sun was the center of the universe. You all know better than me i guess.

Chris F
07-26-2009, 12:07 AM
yeah, i see chris is the type of guy that says "what about the people who were raped! we have to make all abortions legal because people have conceived by rape! "

I can honestly say that I have actually pondered your guys' points and I highly doubt that many have pondered mine.

I don't see how ANYONE can think i am more self righteous than chris "I encourage you to repent and come to the God of the bible and not the one you have invented in your mind." F. Who certainly can do no wrong and didn't possibly deserve to get cancer cause he never sinned, and has EVERYTHING figured out. And has earned God's favor and health.

I'll go back to lurking. I won't say anymore. Have at it. I feel like the guy who went to a gay and lesbian board and tried to tell them homosexuality was a sin. Not the guy who went to a christian thread and tried to make my point. I know you guys sure spread the love of Christ, It's no wonder you consider yourselves super saints. If I wasn't a christian before, count me in!!!!! I want some of what you guys have!!!! Even If I was wrong. I'm sure the people on the gay forums "know" that sodomy isn't a sin either. I loved it in men in black, how tommy lee jones was telling will smith what we "knew". We "knew" the earth was flat. we "knew" the earth was at the center of the solar system. Heck galilieo was excommunicated, becasue he "wrongly" believed the sun was the center of the universe. You all know better than me i guess.

Why is it everytime you get challenged with simple logic you cower and say "I won't say no more" then the heat dies down and you spout your mouth again. You still do not get it Adam. You do not know me. To say such an arogant pompus thing like "I see Chris is one of those...."

1. You made the comment that God allows things to happen and then insinuate they deserve it. Did Job deserve what Happened to him? Do those little babies deserve leukemia or AIDS? By your logic they do and you even go as far as to say God must do it to teach them a lesson for their sin. Did you forget the blind man who was healed and they said who sinned that this man was born blind. Jesus said this happened so that I may receive glory. God takes no joy in his children getting sick. You really should consider your words before you post because you keep digging yourself deeper and deeper with every post.

2. Why do you have to play the victim every time you get proved wrong. Stop crying about it already and show us book chapter and verse where we are wrong and we will "consider your point" I can careless what any man thinks if they can;t back it up with scripture.

3. I do not have everything figured out. And I have been called out on issues just like you have. At times I have said things that were not popular at all. Women in ministry for example. You just need to have the scripture to back your point up or expect to be called on the carpet. So far you have done nothing to prove you point and myself and 3 or 4 others have shown you through out scripture where God clearly teaches to be a good steward and make arrangements. So do not lurk and sulk. If you truly think you serve a vengeful god who pleasures at the misery of his Children then prove it.

surveyorshawn
07-26-2009, 12:10 AM
lung cancer, HPV,AIDS, heart disease, diabetes, ulcers, liver chirrosis,STD's, etc.... do you actually think these "just happen"

Do you think that it is unfair for God to allow to happen to us what we set ourselves up for? All the diseases I listed are a result in some form or another of sin. Whether the person did it knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or accidentally, that's the bare facts.

I guess I will recant one part of my belief. If you are going to drink, smoke, sleep around, worry, overeat, or other sinful behaviors, then you better get some insurance. But most sin has consequences. If you don't want to face the consequences of your sin then get some insurance. You're prolly right. God ain't gonna take care of you.

Yeah, never mind, it's not anyone's fault, it's God's fault

You are correct, many diseases, ailments, and situations are a direct result of specific sin, but disease, sickness, and hardship are also a part of living in a fallen world. We are all guilty of sin, and as a result, will all die, get sick, have hard times, etc. The Bible says, "It is appointed unto man once to die, then to face judgement." Most people die of something, rather than just going to sleep and never waking up, even though they are perfectly healthy (not saying that is what you were suggesting at all, though). Many people get lung cancer who have never smoked, have gotten aids from blood transfusions or because their spouse cheated, and gotten many various things that were not the result of a specific sin. Heck, I know of one person (who was a Christian and a virgin, btw) who contracted an STD from a public toilet seat. I am agreeing with you and expounding on what you said at the same time. We are all in the same boat as far as the potential to acquire a serious disease whether we did something specific to get that specific disease or not (such as promiscuity, alcoholism, etc.). Now, back to relating that to health/life insurance, lol.....

NateR
07-26-2009, 12:53 AM
lung cancer, HPV,AIDS, heart disease, diabetes, ulcers, liver chirrosis,STD's, etc.... do you actually think these "just happen"

Do you think that it is unfair for God to allow to happen to us what we set ourselves up for? All the diseases I listed are a result in some form or another of sin. Whether the person did it knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or accidentally, that's the bare facts.

I guess I will recant one part of my belief. If you are going to drink, smoke, sleep around, worry, overeat, or other sinful behaviors, then you better get some insurance. But most sin has consequences. If you don't want to face the consequences of your sin then get some insurance. You're prolly right. God ain't gonna take care of you.

Yeah, never mind, it's not anyone's fault, it's God's fault

Yeah, you're right, all illnesses are a result of sin. If someone is sick, it's just evidence of them being a bad Christian. Like my mom, who has suffered from epileptic seizures for most of her life; but she only has that ailment because she's guilty of the sin of getting in front of a drunk driver at the age of five. :blink:

rearnakedchoke
07-26-2009, 02:16 AM
Yeah, you're right, all illnesses are a result of sin. If someone is sick, it's just evidence of them being a bad Christian. Like my mom, who has suffered from epileptic seizures for most of her life; but she only has that ailment because she's guilty of the sin of getting in front of a drunk driver at the age of five. :blink:
why even bother answering this clown ...

Neezar
07-26-2009, 06:51 AM
This thread reminds me of a joke.

There's a guy sitting in his living room watching tv. The news warns of torrential rain with flooding imminent. The cops come around knocking on doors telling people to evacuate. He says, "I am going to pray to the Lord to be saved. I have nothing to fear." Then he closes the door and sits back down. Waters begin to rise and finally he's forced to his upstairs rooms. A boat with rescue crew comes by and offers to rescue him. He replies, "My God will save me. I have nothing to fear," and he refuses to go with them. Finally as the water continues to rise he sits on the roof of his house and a helicopter comes over. They lower a basket for him to get into. He again refuses saying, "I have faith. My God will save me." Well the guy drowns. When he gets to Heaven he asks God, "Lord, why didn't you save me? I had faith." God tells him, "What more did you expect? I sent the cops, a boat, and a helicopter." :laugh:



~Amy

Exactly! :laugh:

Neezar
07-26-2009, 07:04 AM
Funny..... that is what they kept telling all the people you claim to believe in.....Paul, Jesus, Peter, John..... truth is, people are so set in their ways they refused to even PONDER a new thought that might challenge their personal worldview


yeah, i see chris is the type of guy that says "what about the people who were raped! we have to make all abortions legal because people have conceived by rape! "

I can honestly say that I have actually pondered your guys' points and I highly doubt that many have pondered mine.

I don't see how ANYONE can think i am more self righteous than chris "I encourage you to repent and come to the God of the bible and not the one you have invented in your mind." F. Who certainly can do no wrong and didn't possibly deserve to get cancer cause he never sinned, and has EVERYTHING figured out. And has earned God's favor and health.

I'll go back to lurking. I won't say anymore. Have at it. I feel like the guy who went to a gay and lesbian board and tried to tell them homosexuality was a sin. Not the guy who went to a christian thread and tried to make my point. I know you guys sure spread the love of Christ, It's no wonder you consider yourselves super saints. If I wasn't a christian before, count me in!!!!! I want some of what you guys have!!!! Even If I was wrong. I'm sure the people on the gay forums "know" that sodomy isn't a sin either. I loved it in men in black, how tommy lee jones was telling will smith what we "knew". We "knew" the earth was flat. we "knew" the earth was at the center of the solar system. Heck galilieo was excommunicated, becasue he "wrongly" believed the sun was the center of the universe. You all know better than me i guess.

Okay, so Adam is comparing himself with Paul, Jesus, Peter, and John. While comparing insurance holders to sodomites. :blink:



So, that's what I've got so far. I'm not finished reading this thread ( I skip around) but I am looking forward to it.


:laugh:

Boomer
07-26-2009, 07:05 AM
:scared0015: You know Amy I didn't see this in the earlier posts. :scared0015: We both thought of the SAME Joke!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Course mine was a little more "wordy" as is the ban of my existance ... :blink:

:D

This thread reminds me of a joke.

There's a guy sitting in his living room watching tv. The news warns of torrential rain with flooding imminent. The cops come around knocking on doors telling people to evacuate. He says, "I am going to pray to the Lord to be saved. I have nothing to fear." Then he closes the door and sits back down. Waters begin to rise and finally he's forced to his upstairs rooms. A boat with rescue crew comes by and offers to rescue him. He replies, "My God will save me. I have nothing to fear," and he refuses to go with them. Finally as the water continues to rise he sits on the roof of his house and a helicopter comes over. They lower a basket for him to get into. He again refuses saying, "I have faith. My God will save me." Well the guy drowns. When he gets to Heaven he asks God, "Lord, why didn't you save me? I had faith." God tells him, "What more did you expect? I sent the cops, a boat, and a helicopter." :laugh:



~Amy

Tyburn
07-26-2009, 08:21 AM
:cry: :cry: Gummy bears .... :cry: :cry: I admit .... its gummy bears... :cry:

I need to hug this out .... whos got me?? :cry: :cry:



:D


Seriously I hear yea bro... :wink:
:w00t: I am sure I remember you give great hugs...or maybe I just made that up, I cant remember.

:laugh:

Tyburn
07-26-2009, 08:46 AM
responses in red of course,


bottom line..... christians are NO DIFFERENT from the non christians today..... just what they say they believe, no more faith, no less sin--they just try to hide it and use grace to cover it, doctors heal christians and non christians the same way, Only christians keep telling them selves they were healed by God, and non christians know better. They know it was the doctors, they just admit that God wasn't allowed to be a part of it. There is no God in the Hospital just like there is no God at school
1) if we are called to be faithful, then being unfaithful is being sinful, that IS unGODly. Either way, you are saying dont use doctors, and thats very foolish.

2) oh right...so your GOD cant use unchristians to do His bidding without them noticing?? Again you denude my GOD of one of his most basic powers! he can work through anyone he likes. ANYONE!

3) You really ARE a fool! Who creates the law of physics to make a firearm work? Who creates the laws of motion to allow a handgun to be constructed in the bloody first place? Who created the laws of nature that govern disease? GOD doesnt want the Glory if his help comes through a person of His choosing???

Dont be so stupid. Youf god is little, unable, and impotenet if you actually believe what you said! My GOD doesnt see boundaries like that as being an issue...strangely enough he's slightly more powerful then that.

4) GOD is unchanging. You cant "Change" His plans. You cant "change" His ways, You cant "Change" His laws, you cant stop his miracles.

We are Humans...no your place...its called POWERLESS

5) I think it was his original plan. I dont believe he has quite set plans for individuals. I think he works with them, and its easy for him to do that because he knows what we are going to choose without making us choose it since he is omnipotenet. Therefore, his Goal is never in jepody.

6) I dont shrink GOD...do you think he cares if I get insurrance or not?? What is he, some kinda immature being who might worry that me getting issurance would mean I dont need him no more?? :laugh:

7) OMG are you that much of a prude?? I suppose you dont own a television for worry that you might watch something unchristian...never listen to anything but praise music because you are so insecure. Actually the Bible tells us to LIVE IN the world...just not to be of it. If you are that unstable your petrified living IN the world might damage your faith...then if I were you i'd seriously consider becoming a hermit. That way you never need to worry...ohh I might add you should be careful with the internet...goodness knows when a stray evil advertisment might pop up on your screen and shatter your trust :unsure-1:

8) we dont seek help away from GOD, we just do not demand he show up in person every time we run into a little bump! We go to people who know his laws whether they accept him or not on an individual level. Scientists know his Laws, Medical people know His laws...who invented the laws they make their living off following???

Do you not notice the seriousness of the joke that keeps being posted in this thread. YOU would die because you really are too foolish to think GOD might use His creation to aid you.

9) Never did he say HOW he would protect and provide. You make a big assumption that he will turn up and do something. He NEVER promised that. He has protected and provided! its called Medical Insurance!! now if you dont want to receive His help...thats up to you.

10) Would be a good idea. You have no right to demand anything from GOD. He is a King...and you are a fool. Do not expect he show up in person. Who do you think you are? he promised protection, and you can get that through his work in other people. He never promised he'd show up in person. Neither does he usually unless on special occasions. Attending to your every whim is not classed as the above.

11) :laugh:

12) There is no GOD in the Hospital?? Or in the Schools? Why not? Who the hell keeps him out of those places??? You think that he CANT go wherever he pleases??

GOD goes everywhere he wants. Except for Hell, and thats by His own Chosing...out of respect for people who dont want to be with Him.

The good news is, GOD even loves fools. :)

Tyburn
07-26-2009, 08:54 AM
lung cancer, HPV,AIDS, heart disease, diabetes, ulcers, liver chirrosis,STD's, etc.... do you actually think these "just happen"

Do you think that it is unfair for God to allow to happen to us what we set ourselves up for? All the diseases I listed are a result in some form or another of sin. Whether the person did it knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or accidentally, that's the bare facts.

I guess I will recant one part of my belief. If you are going to drink, smoke, sleep around, worry, overeat, or other sinful behaviors, then you better get some insurance. But most sin has consequences. If you don't want to face the consequences of your sin then get some insurance. You're prolly right. God ain't gonna take care of you.

Yeah, never mind, it's not anyone's fault, it's God's fault
YES they do JUST...its called a fallen world.

...and actually in Africa people are born with AIDs...is that the fault of the baby???

What is your opinion on an earthquake or natural disastor?? you think they are GODs vengance also?? caused by pure evil peoples actions??

Tyburn
07-26-2009, 08:57 AM
I'll go back to lurking. I won't say anymore..
I wish you would. but this time, PAY ATTENTION whilst you are lurking. You might learn something

TexasRN
07-26-2009, 03:14 PM
:scared0015: You know Amy I didn't see this in the earlier posts. :scared0015: We both thought of the SAME Joke!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Course mine was a little more "wordy" as is the ban of my existance ... :blink:

:D

I stink at telling jokes but this is one of my favorites.

~Amy

TexasRN
07-26-2009, 03:30 PM
This debate makes me think of the spiritual gifts. Some are given the gift of healing. Some of those folks could just possibly be doctors or nurses.....Seeking health care is not a sin. Having insurance to pay for it is not a sin. Stopping my prayer when a doctor walks in to tell me that my son lived through surgery was not a sin. Know why? Because my God is *always* there. That doctor needed to get back to save another child or maybe even get back to my child in post op. God knows my heart, knows that my day is a constant prayer to him. In the same vein, I also don't feel bad if I fall asleep talking to him. Doesn't mean I value sleep over Him. Just means I finished my day in the best way possible.

I feel that I was led by God to become a nurse. When you are my patient, I don't care how you are paying for it but I do want the hospital to get paid for my services. It means I get equipment to treat my patients, a salary, medications to give to save the lives of moms and babies, a building to treat my patients in, etc. Unfortunately I cannot just give my services away for free all of the time.


~Amy