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atomdanger
07-11-2009, 08:50 PM
This is a serious question I have had for a long time.

Dose the bible say anything about them?
Is it possible that god exists and aliens do as well?
with all the stars and infinite galaxies is it possible that god made alien lifeforms?

I guess I am just curious on what some christian views on extra terrestrial life are,
is it just a they don't exist belief, or what?

Play The Man
07-11-2009, 09:32 PM
The Vatican actually issued a statement about this last year. For Roman Catholics, I guess, the answer would be, yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7399661.stmhttp://

The Pope's chief astronomer says that life on Mars cannot be ruled out.

Writing in the Vatican newspaper, the astronomer, Father Gabriel Funes, said intelligent beings created by God could exist in outer space.

Father Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory near Rome, is a respected scientist who collaborates with universities around the world.

The search for forms of extraterrestrial life, he says, does not contradict belief in God.

The official Vatican newspaper headlines his article 'Aliens Are My Brother'.

C. S. Lewis, an Oxford and Cambridge professor, who was an Anglican and a Christian apologist wrote a science fiction trilogy that included life on other planets. One of the books had characters analogous to Adam and Eve, who lived on another planet and were tempted by a Tempter.

I don't think most orthodox (small "o") Christians would say that the Bible contains descriptions of aliens; however, there are guests on "Coast to Coast" (a middle-of-the-night radio show which specializes in talking about aliens, ghosts, conspiracies, Bigfoot, etc.) who claim to be "Christian" and say that angels are really space aliens and that the Nephalim (very briefly mentioned in Genesis in passages which are unclear) were space aliens.

In my opinion, the Bible is silent on this question. I doubt that there are space aliens; however, if one showed up on my doorstep, it wouldn't shake my faith in God.

warriorlion
07-11-2009, 09:57 PM
I've heard people justify aliens through the jacobs ladder aspect of the bible, personally I dont know, I would say that the bible is pretty unclear, but then at the same time you could say that the bible is unclear about dinosaurs, and yet I have heard peopel claim that leviathon was a giant reptile, and that in turn would have been dinosaurs.

So I think really its a God only knows situation

Vizion
07-11-2009, 10:57 PM
Dose the bible say anything about them?
No.
Is it possible that god exists and aliens do as well?
Yes.
with all the stars and infinite galaxies is it possible that god made alien lifeforms? Sure, but only those who get to Heaven will ever truly know the wonders of the God's infinite creation.
.

NateR
07-11-2009, 11:34 PM
There's only one verse in the Bible that even implies that life is possible outside of the planet Earth; but you have to go back to the original Hebrew text since many translators actually change the text to erase that implication. Deuteronomy 30:4 (NKJV)
"If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you."

The "farthest parts under heaven" is more accurately translated as "farthest parts of heaven" or "farthest parts of the sky."

I have a Jewish Torah which translates Deuteronomy 30:4 as:
"If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee."

The word used for "heaven" here is "samayim" which can also be translated as "sky." From an ancient Jewish perspective, heaven or sky would be a reference to what we consider outer space. However, considering that most Bible translations predate space travel, it's understandable as to why the translators would feel the need to change that sentence.

BUT, this is more of a reference to the human race's ability to leave the planet Earth. It has nothing to do with alien life, but that really just depends on how you define "alien life." The basic meaning of the word "extraterrestrial" simply refers to a being that did not originate on the planet Earth. In that general sense of the word, then you could use extraterrestrial to refer to all angels, demons, Satan and even GOD Himself (the word doesn't imply that an origin is required. Just that, if the being has an origin, it is not on Earth). So in that sense, you could say that the Bible is all about extraterrestrial life.

MattHughesRocks
07-11-2009, 11:52 PM
Thanks NateR :)

ufcfan2
07-12-2009, 02:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ellie Arroway: I'll tell you one thing about the universe, though. The universe is a pretty big place. It's bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space. Right? -quote from the movie Contact :)

logrus
07-12-2009, 04:41 AM
God is an Alien.

Neezar
07-12-2009, 04:44 AM
God is an Alien.

Are you drunk, Log?

rockdawg21
07-12-2009, 06:38 AM
Is it a question of religion or logic?

The Universe:
100 billion galaxies in the observable universe
100 billion stars (solar systems) within each galaxy
Let's use our solar system as an estimate - 9 planets in our solar system
100 billion x 100 billion x 9 = 90,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the observable universe.
Earth is the ONLY planet in the universe with life, or even intelligent life?

atomdanger
07-12-2009, 07:02 AM
thank you guys

Boomer
07-12-2009, 12:17 PM
I did some research on this in Bible college and since the Bible isn't clear on it then, all we have are other scriptures that are clear cut and see if that sheds light on the subject. Actually the paper I did follows very closely to what Nate said, but the focus and intent was on creation.


The one or two line version of my take on it was, "no there was not life on other planets." If you look at the intent and purpose of creation God made this reality for us (mankind) to govern and we are the only creation the Bible mentions as made in his image. We were also originally created to live forever. Eventually the earth would run out of space. Since the universe is constantly expanding, everything in creation points at our original intent. Since mankind broke out of the mold of God's original intent .. you have a universe that keeps growing that would coincide with our former eternal nature, but now we are a flawed sinful man that expires.

There are lots of good debates on this, and I am certainly not 100% solid that this is a right conclusion ... just what I came up with.

cubsfan47
07-12-2009, 01:56 PM
Since He is the creator of all things, would the discovery of life elsewhere be a surprise? No since He has no limits.

So I keep an open mind on this. I just don't know.

This is distinct from all the UFO/Roswell conspiracy type mania that has a hold on some people. That movement has certain aspects of a cult. I think Larson wrote about that in his book on cults.

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 05:32 PM
This is a serious question I have had for a long time.

Dose the bible say anything about them?
Is it possible that god exists and aliens do as well?
with all the stars and infinite galaxies is it possible that god made alien lifeforms?

I guess I am just curious on what some christian views on extra terrestrial life are,
is it just a they don't exist belief, or what?

Its more a case of, that knowledge is not important.

Statistically we can say not only is their life in other parts of the universe, but probably intelligent life. The chances of us ever running into intelligent life are very small. Partly because the Universe is arranged into Galaxies...and transfering from one Galaxy to another...well...Inter-Planetary travel is incredibly time consuming because of the space between stars....but inter-Galactic travel??

I would think that impossible even traveling FAR, FAR faster then light...there is such a vast void between Galaxies, that can probably say the only life we could ever encounter would have to be within our own Galaxy...suddenly the Statistics are not so good for intelligent life.

My guess is that we share this Galaxy with plenty of microbes, possibly some marine life...and if we are lucky some vegetation and insects.

Intelligent life? Well...the closest would probably be in Andromeda...we are part of a cluster of Galaxies...the largest, and closest of which is the biggest...but its still a different Galaxy....if we are unlucky...Intelligent life may exist, but in a Galaxy not part of the Andromeda cluster.

Short of a wormhole...we will never meet.

But GOD has a habit of creating things just to amuse himself...you see him creat Nebulae in the heavens...and you have to ask why he has made something practical...so beautiful looking...it is for the sake of beauty itself.

So I imagine he's created many things...many things that are frankly, none of our business :laugh:

Now...if there was intelligent life WITHIN our Galaxy...assuming they could confidently and easily do inter-planetary travel...then there is no reason why we couldnt meet...except...we've been putting out radiowaves for a long time, and we've sent up plenty of space debris...if they were within our Globular Cluster (which is the name given for a group of stars close together...Alpha Centuri I believe is the closest star...and I think its part of a Globular Cluster...a handful of stars....then that intelligent life is purposefully ignoring us :laugh:

Beyond that...who knows.

The chances are that civilizations probably wont branch into space properly unless forced to because Travel takes so long. My guess would be that the most realistic meeting will be between us and some Generation Ship whose peoples are either in suspended animation...in which case they will float until some power picks them up...not sure we have the technology to drag a dormant ship to earth and wake its inhabitants. OR, those people living on that ship will be hundreds of generations removed from a people made homeless by the collapse of their Star...they will have set off, traveling perhaps eversoslightly faster then light...and they will have come from relatively close by...the thing is...that would require a nova in our close region...because presuming the ship is traveling for years...how long before it breaks down out of age? I dont think you could say more then a thousand light years...possibly 500 light years would be reasonable

NateR
07-12-2009, 05:52 PM
Is it a question of religion or logic?

The Universe:
100 billion galaxies in the observable universe
100 billion stars (solar systems) within each galaxy
Let's use our solar system as an estimate - 9 planets in our solar system
100 billion x 100 billion x 9 = 90,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the observable universe.
Earth is the ONLY planet in the universe with life, or even intelligent life?

Read the book Rare Earth. It talks about how the planet Earth is specifically "tuned for life" in this galaxy and how everything, from the position of Jupiter in our solar system to the precise pull of gravity on our planet, is necessary for life to exist here on Earth.

If you looks at what's really required for life to exist on Earth, just our existence in the universe is a miracle. Most of those other solar systems and galaxies are simply incompatible with life as we know it on Earth.

rockdawg21
07-12-2009, 06:16 PM
Read the book Rare Earth. It talks about how the planet Earth is specifically "tuned for life" in this galaxy and how everything, from the position of Jupiter in our solar system to the precise pull of gravity on our planet, is necessary for life to exist here on Earth.

If you looks at what's really required for life to exist on Earth, just our existence in the universe is a miracle. Most of those other solar systems and galaxies are simply incompatible with life as we know it on Earth.
Sounds like an interesting book, I'm just not that interested over the other books that I'm reading. I was a math major so I think in terms of probability. To think the earth is 1 out of 90,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets with life is just improbable. :wink:

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 06:26 PM
Read the book Rare Earth. It talks about how the planet Earth is specifically "tuned for life" in this galaxy and how everything, from the position of Jupiter in our solar system to the precise pull of gravity on our planet, is necessary for life to exist here on Earth.

If you looks at what's really required for life to exist on Earth, just our existence in the universe is a miracle. Most of those other solar systems and galaxies are simply incompatible with life as we know it on Earth.
Thats true. But your ignoring the astronomical figures. Considering how many planets there are in the universe...even something that only happens as often as a miracle is so very likely to occure again, and again.

Also..."life as we know it" doesnt exclude the possibility of life as we DONT know it :)

I shall also tell you that Mars probably once supported life. Thats Two planets within the same solar system....also...i've never heard that Jupiter had any impact on life being able to exist on Earth. Its got far more to do with the size and density of Earth being able to have, and to keep, intact a full and proper atmosphere...its also got a lot to do with distance from the sun, and the size and strength of the sun when life formed.

What impact does Jupiter have on Earth exactly?? I know that it was indanger of burning itself into a star very early in the planitary formation stage, I also know it must have immense gravity....which reminds me...our orbit and axis also help with life...one of the inner planets has no spin, so the same side is always facing the sun...one inner planet has an atmosphere that crushes anything...one has an atmosphere to thin to support life. The other is Earth...of the outter planets...most are gas, some dont even have a solid core, and the ones right out swap orbits with each other...could you imagine what that would do to life on earth if we, for part of the year swapped orbits with venus or Mercury??

I used to be quite the little astronomer when I was younger :ashamed:

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 06:30 PM
Is it a question of religion or logic?

The Universe:
100 billion galaxies in the observable universe
100 billion stars (solar systems) within each galaxy
Let's use our solar system as an estimate - 9 planets in our solar system
100 billion x 100 billion x 9 = 90,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the observable universe.
Earth is the ONLY planet in the universe with life, or even intelligent life?
Bit low on your estimates

also...not all stars have planets...so the answer is there are more planets then the number you wrote above, coz there are more stars.

Your not wrong in your conclusion...but the statistics for Life are greater then you've illustrated

btw...by your own admission...thats the SEEN universe...what about the addition of the Galaxies too far away to see? :laugh:

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 06:32 PM
like I said above...I expect you get a few life forms in each Galaxy...probably only one intelligent life form.

So...we probably have nothing to worry about...the discovery of alien microbes, vegetation, and insects...doesnt change the Bible :rolleyes: :laugh:

NateR
07-12-2009, 07:09 PM
Sounds like an interesting book, I'm just not that interested over the other books that I'm reading. I was a math major so I think in terms of probability. To think the earth is 1 out of 90,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets with life is just improbable. :wink:

Well, have they actually discovered that many planets out there or is that an estimate? Even so, how many of those planets are even capable of supporting life?

I guess the best answer is that there are exactly the number of life bearing planets in this universe as GOD wants to exist. No more, no less. If that's just one, then who are we to tell GOD what He can do with His creation?

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 07:12 PM
I guess the best answer is that there are exactly the number of life bearing planets in this universe as GOD wants to exist. No more, no less. If that's just one, then who are we to tell GOD what He can do with His creation?
Equally...if thats a billion...who are we to say no :)

The truth is...until we find some, we will never know...and we may never find some, and there might still be heaps out there. Who knows. Who cares.

NateR
07-12-2009, 07:27 PM
Thats true. But your ignoring the astronomical figures. Considering how many planets there are in the universe...even something that only happens as often as a miracle is so very likely to occure again, and again.

Also..."life as we know it" doesnt exclude the possibility of life as we DONT know it :)

I shall also tell you that Mars probably once supported life. Thats Two planets within the same solar system....also...i've never heard that Jupiter had any impact on life being able to exist on Earth. Its got far more to do with the size and density of Earth being able to have, and to keep, intact a full and proper atmosphere...its also got a lot to do with distance from the sun, and the size and strength of the sun when life formed.

What impact does Jupiter have on Earth exactly?? I know that it was indanger of burning itself into a star very early in the planitary formation stage, I also know it must have immense gravity....which reminds me...our orbit and axis also help with life...one of the inner planets has no spin, so the same side is always facing the sun...one inner planet has an atmosphere that crushes anything...one has an atmosphere to thin to support life. The other is Earth...of the outter planets...most are gas, some dont even have a solid core, and the ones right out swap orbits with each other...could you imagine what that would do to life on earth if we, for part of the year swapped orbits with venus or Mercury??

I used to be quite the little astronomer when I was younger :ashamed:

Well, I always take the "histories" of planets like Jupiter with a grain of salt, because how much can we really know about a planet that no one has ever even been within a thousand miles of and we've only actually observed in detail in the last century? So whatever claims they makes about what Jupiter was doing "billions of years ago" is just nonsense to me.

However, what we do know is based on what we actually have observed, not just made up histories that border on science fiction. We do know that Jupiter provides a gravity well for our solar system that keeps asteroids from destroying the Earth. We also know that Saturn, Neptune and Uranus keep Jupiter "reigned in" so that it doesn't just wander through the solar system "eating" all the other planets by drawing them into it's gravitational pull. I have read of stars we've discovered that only have a Jupiter-like planet orbiting them because scientists believe that it "ate" all the other planets in its system.

Jupiter's high gravitational pull also keeps Earth from wandering too close to the sun. Being locked between two massive gravitational bodies is one of the reasons that Earth's orbit is so stable. It's not necessarily like that throughout the universe.

I've read of "rogue planets" that just float from star to star, sometimes obliterating an entire solar system before moving on. The universe is a far more dangerous and unpredictable place than what we are used to in our calm, little, orderly solar system.

Just more evidence of GOD's Hand at work right in front of us.

On the topic of Mars, that's just more rampant speculation. Until we actually find some fossilized remains on Mars, then the notion that it once supported life is just more science fiction masquerading as science.

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 08:15 PM
1) Well, I always take the "histories" of planets like Jupiter with a grain of salt, because how much can we really know about a planet that no one has ever even been within a thousand miles of and we've only actually observed in detail in the last century? So whatever claims they makes about what Jupiter was doing "billions of years ago" is just nonsense to me.

2) However, what we do know is based on what we actually have observed, not just made up histories that border on science fiction. We do know that Jupiter provides a gravity well for our solar system that keeps asteroids from destroying the Earth.

3) We also know that Saturn, Neptune and Uranus keep Jupiter "reigned in" so that it doesn't just wander through the solar system "eating" all the other planets by drawing them into it's gravitational pull. I have read of stars we've discovered that only have a Jupiter-like planet orbiting them because scientists believe that it "ate" all the other planets in its system.

4) Jupiter's high gravitational pull also keeps Earth from wandering too close to the sun. Being locked between two massive gravitational bodies is one of the reasons that Earth's orbit is so stable. It's not necessarily like that throughout the universe.

5) I've read of "rogue planets" that just float from star to star, sometimes obliterating an entire solar system before moving on. The universe is a far more dangerous and unpredictable place than what we are used to in our calm, little, orderly solar system.

Just more evidence of GOD's Hand at work right in front of us.

6) On the topic of Mars, that's just more rampant speculation. Until we actually find some fossilized remains on Mars, then the notion that it once supported life is just more science fiction masquerading as science.

1) what you mean is you cant reconcile the Historical Account of Genesis with the Historical account of Astronmers...and probably dont want to, failing to see that Sciences true intention is to Glorify GOD, not to take away from Him.

2) We know that Jupiter can swallow asteroids...but it could also knock a save asteroid out of orbit and into a colision course with just about anything else. Its not just a vaccume cleaner...it has the power to actually CAUSE a disastor useing its gravity.

3) There maybe some truth in that Nathan...but very little. The Suns Gravity keeps it a certain distance...the outter planets do not have the gravity to actively keep Jupiter away from the Sun... You could say that the Outer Planets might stop an orbit swap I suppose...but again, thats pure conjecture. Its absolute Hogwash if you've been told without the outer planets Jupiter would drift TOWARDS the sun. If the Sun had not the gravity to keep Jupiter...far from moving towards the sun (and into OUR line of sight) Jupiter would float off in the other direction. Its more of a danger to the Outer planets then to the inner planets.

If Jupiter was capable of swallowing Earth in its gravitational pull...explain how about 10 Moons, far smaller then earth are capable in being in Orbits around Jupiter at much closer proximity. Jupiter isnt a Star. It nearly became one...but it didnt quite make the nuclear fussion needed.

4) that is entirely possible. It might keep the orbit more stable, but within an orbit of the sun, even without a force pulling us the opposite way, we are unlikely to end up drifting near the sun...unless we get knocked out of our orbit by something else.

You could however claim that the reason the protoplanets collected at the distance required for Earth was because of Jupiters pull...but for that you need to be able to confidently unify something that lies beyond your theology. It is entirely possible that our distance from the sun as a proper plaent was determined by the strength of Jupiters Gravity. that is very possible indeed...for the protoplanets could have bonded at ANY distance, why at this particular distance...could be as much about the pull of one thing like the sun in one direction, and the pull of jupiter in another to satisfy the distance at which successful bonding took place

5) Indeed, Rogue planets are usually planets that have formed and been knocked out of orbit so violently they escape the gravity of their star, they fly through space until something pulls them into a gravity field. often their speed and distance means rather then fitting in nicely, they either have HUGE orbits of MANY stars...or they just fly right into the path of another object orbiting another star. Mostly they are small moons, or large asteroids...but there is no reason why a full scale planet, even a large one if struck by something big enough or moving fast enough shouldnt get knocked out of orbit...weak star...and it would go its merry way for eternity I suspect.

We have got an inordinarily quiet and ballenced Solar System that is VERY true

6) No it isnt. They know that there is a polar ice cap on Mars. That means something liquid, or something gas is freezing. It would be hard for it to be a gas because the atmosphere is not really strong enough to keep much gas from being blown away into space...let alone the time it would take to freeze. So the theory is its liquid. Liquid is a breeding ground for Microbes.

Its by no means indicative of life, infact the current view is that mars cant support life. BUT looking at photographs is enough to see erosian that had to be done by a non volcanic liquid. Some suggest that it had at one stage an atmosphere with a weather system...its not...again indicative of life...but with an atmosphere, although cold, Mars would be habitable. So what happened to that atmosphere? well they dont know, they speculate it had something to do with whatever caused the Marianus trench. Something that could cause that sort of gash into a planet, could easily cause the planet to litterally blast its own atmosphere into space. :laugh: interestingly enough, the Earth also has a deep trench in the south pacific I dont think its quite the size of the martian one though.

NateR
07-12-2009, 08:36 PM
1) what you mean is you cant reconcile the Historical Account of Genesis with the Historical account of Astronmers...and probably dont want to, failing to see that Sciences true intention is to Glorify GOD, not to take away from Him.

2) We know that Jupiter can swallow asteroids...but it could also knock a save asteroid out of orbit and into a colision course with just about anything else. Its not just a vaccume cleaner...it has the power to actually CAUSE a disastor useing its gravity.

3) There maybe some truth in that Nathan...but very little. The Suns Gravity keeps it a certain distance...the outter planets do not have the gravity to actively keep Jupiter away from the Sun... You could say that the Outer Planets might stop an orbit swap I suppose...but again, thats pure conjecture. Its absolute Hogwash if you've been told without the outer planets Jupiter would drift TOWARDS the sun. If the Sun had not the gravity to keep Jupiter...far from moving towards the sun (and into OUR line of sight) Jupiter would float off in the other direction. Its more of a danger to the Outer planets then to the inner planets.

If Jupiter was capable of swallowing Earth in its gravitational pull...explain how about 10 Moons, far smaller then earth are capable in being in Orbits around Jupiter at much closer proximity. Jupiter isnt a Star. It nearly became one...but it didnt quite make the nuclear fussion needed.

4) that is entirely possible. It might keep the orbit more stable, but within an orbit of the sun, even without a force pulling us the opposite way, we are unlikely to end up drifting near the sun...unless we get knocked out of our orbit by something else.

You could however claim that the reason the protoplanets collected at the distance required for Earth was because of Jupiters pull...but for that you need to be able to confidently unify something that lies beyond your theology. It is entirely possible that our distance from the sun as a proper plaent was determined by the strength of Jupiters Gravity. that is very possible indeed...for the protoplanets could have bonded at ANY distance, why at this particular distance...could be as much about the pull of one thing like the sun in one direction, and the pull of jupiter in another to satisfy the distance at which successful bonding took place

5) Indeed, Rogue planets are usually planets that have formed and been knocked out of orbit so violently they escape the gravity of their star, they fly through space until something pulls them into a gravity field. often their speed and distance means rather then fitting in nicely, they either have HUGE orbits of MANY stars...or they just fly right into the path of another object orbiting another star. Mostly they are small moons, or large asteroids...but there is no reason why a full scale planet, even a large one if struck by something big enough or moving fast enough shouldnt get knocked out of orbit...weak star...and it would go its merry way for eternity I suspect.

We have got an inordinarily quiet and ballenced Solar System that is VERY true

6) No it isnt. They know that there is a polar ice cap on Mars. That means something liquid, or something gas is freezing. It would be hard for it to be a gas because the atmosphere is not really strong enough to keep much gas from being blown away into space...let alone the time it would take to freeze. So the theory is its liquid. Liquid is a breeding ground for Microbes.

Its by no means indicative of life, infact the current view is that mars cant support life. BUT looking at photographs is enough to see erosian that had to be done by a non volcanic liquid. Some suggest that it had at one stage an atmosphere with a weather system...its not...again indicative of life...but with an atmosphere, although cold, Mars would be habitable. So what happened to that atmosphere? well they dont know, they speculate it had something to do with whatever caused the Marianus trench. Something that could cause that sort of gash into a planet, could easily cause the planet to litterally blast its own atmosphere into space. :laugh: interestingly enough, the Earth also has a deep trench in the south pacific I dont think its quite the size of the martian one though.

1. No, what I mean is scientists CAN'T know that. You clearly can't distinguish true science from speculation. If you could, then you'd understand that many of these "facts" that you cling to have no real evidence to back them up.

Think it through, how could someone possibly KNOW what happened billions of years ago just by looking at pictures? Would you trust a doctor's diagnosis of a patient if you knew that he had only seen a picture of his patient and had never met them in person? No? Then why trust some self-proclaimed expert just because he calls himself an Astronomer?

2. And how often has that happened? We've actually witnessed Jupiter absorbing asteroid impacts that would have hit the Earth if Jupiter wasn't around. You have to base your science on actual events, not just endless "what if" scenarios.

3. Obviously it's more complicated than what I explained, but it is clear that our planets were placed in our solar system in such a way as to make life possible on Earth. Not hard to see if you believe that GOD is greater than the puny minds of scientists.

4. I'm not an Astronomer, I just pass on what I've studied. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture. You clearly don't have a problem with passing guesswork off as science, but I really try to avoid it.

5. Again, I read about rogue planets, but speculation about why they are rogue planets or how they became rogue planets is just more guesswork. If we discovered a million rogue planets out there, I'm sure it's entirely possible that there would be a million different explanations for how they came to be.

The truth of our universe is usually much greater than our human minds can comprehend.

6. It's true that life, as we know it, can't exist without water, but that doesn't necessarily mean that water can't exist without life. I could understand the idea that discovering evidence of water on a planet might indicate the possibility of life if you were looking at the universe through Darwinian-Evolution-tinted glasses. However, we believe that GOD created the universe, so He could put water on a planet without life. That doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

Again, until we actually find some fossil evidence of life on Mars, then it's all just speculation, not science. It would help you immensely if you learned the difference.

Unless it can be directly observed (meaning within our lifetimes) and repeatedly verified through experimentation, then it CAN'T be considered scientific evidence.

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 09:59 PM
1. No, what I mean is scientists CAN'T know that. You clearly can't distinguish true science from speculation. If you could, then you'd understand that many of these "facts" that you cling to have no real evidence to back them up.

Think it through, how could someone possibly KNOW what happened billions of years ago just by looking at pictures? Would you trust a doctor's diagnosis of a patient if you knew that he had only seen a picture of his patient and had never met them in person? No? Then why trust some self-proclaimed expert just because he calls himself an Astronomer?

2. And how often has that happened? We've actually witnessed Jupiter absorbing asteroid impacts that would have hit the Earth if Jupiter wasn't around. You have to base your science on actual events, not just endless "what if" scenarios.

3. Obviously it's more complicated than what I explained, but it is clear that our planets were placed in our solar system in such a way as to make life possible on Earth. Not hard to see if you believe that GOD is greater than the puny minds of scientists.

4. I'm not an Astronomer, I just pass on what I've studied. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture. You clearly don't have a problem with passing guesswork off as science, but I really try to avoid it.

5. Again, I read about rogue planets, but speculation about why they are rogue planets or how they became rogue planets is just more guesswork. If we discovered a million rogue planets out there, I'm sure it's entirely possible that there would be a million different explanations for how they came to be.

The truth of our universe is usually much greater than our human minds can comprehend.

6. It's true that life, as we know it, can't exist without water, but that doesn't necessarily mean that water can't exist without life. I could understand the idea that discovering evidence of water on a planet might indicate the possibility of life if you were looking at the universe through Darwinian-Evolution-tinted glasses. However, we believe that GOD created the universe, so He could put water on a planet without life. That doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

Again, until we actually find some fossil evidence of life on Mars, then it's all just speculation, not science. It would help you immensely if you learned the difference.

Unless it can be directly observed (meaning within our lifetimes) and repeatedly verified through experimentation, then it CAN'T be considered scientific evidence.
1) Scientists can use the laws of physics that GOD has given them to come up with pretty good theories. The main reason you choose to put no stock in them is because with a limited understanding of Genesis, you are forced to abandon a large portion of science which might impinge on a marginailized view of Creation.

The problem isnt with the Bible, and it isnt with the Scientists, the problem is completely with your interpretation of scripture. I have a very different theology and a very different interpretation of genesis, it allows what I know fo Science, to compliement what I know of the Bible...far from contradicting each other, Science Glorifies GOD in the act of creation.

2) No, we havent. As far as I'm aware the only thing recently to hit Jupiter was a commet of some description that wasnt even heading towards us. It impacted on the near side of Jupiter. So unless you care to enlighten us, what observable impacts have we seen of a body on course for a collision with Earth when it got sucked into Jupiter??

I'm not saying it cant happen. I believe thats a perfectly possible scenario. But I have seen no evidence of it happening in reality. Your method of reasoning relies on what you can SEE. So detail the evidence.

3) Of Course Life was deemed possible. But it has nothing to do with Jupiter. There is nothing complicated about what you stated before. I understood, I'm just letting you know that your replies are based on the work of other "experts" who are creating theorums also.

Life appeared because GOD works through creation. Who ordained the sun? GOD! Who ordained Jupiter to be the precise mass it needed to be? GOD! So its not like Science had to be GODless...Science only became GODless when Rome turned her back on it and the scientists went it alone. The early Scientists, the Early scholars...they would all have been connected to The Church in some way. Monastic in many areas of England certainly.

4) My "conjecture" is mainstream. Does that make it 100percent accurate? No, but it does mean its more generally accepted then your conjecture.

5) It is greater then we can comprehend. But we can use what we know to suggest what we dont. We know that things crash into others and knock them out of orbit...then its just about physics as to what happens next. NASA tracks many objects Nathan...this isnt as much based on guesswork as it sounds. If you are following something...you can see where it came from, and calculate where it will end up. The Glorification comes in knowing WHO made the Rules.

6) Was Darwin originally GODless, Nathan :)

As for Scientific Evidence...Being a man of Faith, you know very well that there are things both you and I know to be true, that could not be prooved scientifically...nor need they be to be True. Scientific Measurement is a purely Human invention...Science is a GODly creation.

You take the Book of Genesis on Faith. You were not around during those Seven Days, if you believed half of what you purported had to take place to believe what I have said in this thread, you would by the same measure never have been Saved.

I believe that your interpretation of Genesis limits your ability to trust science because you feel that it contradicts, and thus you rightly refer to Scripture rather then Science. That contradiction is not real. But your interpretation limits some of what GOD could show you about His creation. At the end of the day it doesnt matter, its not an important point. But its unkind of you to write off, or attempt to make foolish, the voice of someone who in that area of theology is perhaps able to reconcile what you can't. Riddicule is not needed Nathan. I didnt say Water was indicative of Life, just makes it statistically more likely There is no need to belittle me, or talk to me like I'm unsaved

To return to the main question. We, both you and I, do not know. What we DO know is GOD is incontrol. Neither of us will lose our Faith if Intelligent Life is found elsewhere in the Cosmos. Ultimately, thats all the matters :)

NateR
07-12-2009, 10:49 PM
1) Scientists can use the laws of physics that GOD has given them to come up with pretty good theories. The main reason you choose to put no stock in them is because with a limited understanding of Genesis, you are forced to abandon a large portion of science which might impinge on a marginailized view of Creation.

The problem isnt with the Bible, and it isnt with the Scientists, the problem is completely with your interpretation of scripture. I have a very different theology and a very different interpretation of genesis, it allows what I know fo Science, to compliement what I know of the Bible...far from contradicting each other, Science Glorifies GOD in the act of creation.

2) No, we havent. As far as I'm aware the only thing recently to hit Jupiter was a commet of some description that wasnt even heading towards us. It impacted on the near side of Jupiter. So unless you care to enlighten us, what observable impacts have we seen of a body on course for a collision with Earth when it got sucked into Jupiter??

I'm not saying it cant happen. I believe thats a perfectly possible scenario. But I have seen no evidence of it happening in reality. Your method of reasoning relies on what you can SEE. So detail the evidence.

3) Of Course Life was deemed possible. But it has nothing to do with Jupiter. There is nothing complicated about what you stated before. I understood, I'm just letting you know that your replies are based on the work of other "experts" who are creating theorums also.

Life appeared because GOD works through creation. Who ordained the sun? GOD! Who ordained Jupiter to be the precise mass it needed to be? GOD! So its not like Science had to be GODless...Science only became GODless when Rome turned her back on it and the scientists went it alone. The early Scientists, the Early scholars...they would all have been connected to The Church in some way. Monastic in many areas of England certainly.

4) My "conjecture" is mainstream. Does that make it 100percent accurate? No, but it does mean its more generally accepted then your conjecture.

5) It is greater then we can comprehend. But we can use what we know to suggest what we dont. We know that things crash into others and knock them out of orbit...then its just about physics as to what happens next. NASA tracks many objects Nathan...this isnt as much based on guesswork as it sounds. If you are following something...you can see where it came from, and calculate where it will end up. The Glorification comes in knowing WHO made the Rules.

6) Was Darwin originally GODless, Nathan :)

As for Scientific Evidence...Being a man of Faith, you know very well that there are things both you and I know to be true, that could not be prooved scientifically...nor need they be to be True. Scientific Measurement is a purely Human invention...Science is a GODly creation.

You take the Book of Genesis on Faith. You were not around during those Seven Days, if you believed half of what you purported had to take place to believe what I have said in this thread, you would by the same measure never have been Saved.

I believe that your interpretation of Genesis limits your ability to trust science because you feel that it contradicts, and thus you rightly refer to Scripture rather then Science. That contradiction is not real. But your interpretation limits some of what GOD could show you about His creation. At the end of the day it doesnt matter, its not an important point. But its unkind of you to write off, or attempt to make foolish, the voice of someone who in that area of theology is perhaps able to reconcile what you can't. Riddicule is not needed Nathan. I didnt say Water was indicative of Life, just makes it statistically more likely There is no need to belittle me, or talk to me like I'm unsaved

To return to the main question. We, both you and I, do not know. What we DO know is GOD is incontrol. Neither of us will lose our Faith if Intelligent Life is found elsewhere in the Cosmos. Ultimately, thats all the matters :)

As usual, your assumptions about why I believe the way I do are 100% incorrect and only reflect your narrow-mindedness.

I've studied the work of many qualified scientists who don't see a contradiction between science and a literal interpretation of the Genesis account.

I don't care what's mainstream or what the consensus of scientists in the world believe, because they are of the world and the Bible is very clear that being a friend of the world makes us enemies of GOD. So, why would I listen to the speculations and theories of men who either believe that GOD doesn't exist or that He is a liar? If you are working off the false assumption that there is no GOD, then how can you possibly correctly interpret the evidence?

You also need to watch the film Expelled to understand how a consensus of scientists can still be completely wrong.

For instance, a fossil is not proof of Evolution. It's simply a petrified bone found in the ground. The context of who that bone belonged to, how old it is and how it got there is all speculation based entirely on the scientist's worldview. If the scientist is a Evolutionist, then he's going to place the fossil in the context of an Evolutionary timeline. If the scientist is a Creationist, then he's going to place it in a Creationist timeline.

It's as simple as that. To assume that Evolutionists only believe in Evolution because the evidence for it is so overwhelming, is extremely naive. They choose to believe in Evolution first and then align everything within that framework. Just like a Creationist chooses to believe in the Bible first and interprets everything within the context of that.

Of course most of our beliefs require faith, I never claimed that I could scientifically prove the events of the Bible. What I am saying is that science is just a tool and cannot be used in every scenario. It can ONLY be used to measure phenomena and events that we can actually observe in our own lifetimes.

Claiming that someone can scientifically prove that the Earth is billions of years old is just a fundamental misunderstanding of what science really is.

NateR
07-12-2009, 10:58 PM
Anyways, back on topic. If we did discover intelligent alien life out there, it would NOT become a stumbling block to my faith at all. In fact, it would simply be further proof of how great GOD really is.

It would also raise some interesting questions. For instance, if there is another Earth-like planet out there, then would Jesus have had to be born of a virgin on that planet and be put to death just like He did here? Or, if that planet had just never fallen into sin in the first place, then wouldn't contact with us be an extremely dangerous thing for them? Wouldn't our Earth essentially fulfill the role of Satan for them as we introduced them to a world of sin?

There are a lot of serious theological ramifications to the notion of intelligent life on other planets. Maybe that's why, if it does exist, then it's so far away that we will likely never know about it.

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 11:10 PM
Anyways, back on topic. If we did discover intelligent alien life out there, it would NOT become a stumbling block to my faith at all. In fact, it would simply be further proof of how great GOD really is.

It would also raise some interesting questions. For instance, if there is another Earth-like planet out there, then would Jesus have had to be born of a virgin on that planet and be put to death just like He did here? Or, if that planet had just never fallen into sin in the first place, then wouldn't contact with us be an extremely dangerous thing for them? Wouldn't our Earth essentially fulfill the role of Satan for them as we introduced them to a world of sin?

There are a lot of serious theological ramifications to the notion of intelligent life on other planets. Maybe that's why, if it does exist, then it's so far away that we will likely never know about it.
It depends on what shape that intelligent life comes in. If they are Humanoid aswell then...would Jesus death also apply to the,? wheras if they were like...clever jellyfish or something... :unsure: :laugh:

I'll withdraw from, replying to the other, since its off topic, and you seem to be getting...emotional :mellow: