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Play The Man
07-11-2009, 05:56 PM
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/71660.html

WASHINGTON Supporters of Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor are quietly targeting the Connecticut firefighter who's at the center of Sotomayor's most controversial ruling.

On the eve of Sotomayor's Senate confirmation hearing, her advocates have been urging journalists to scrutinize what one called the "troubled and litigious work history" of firefighter Frank Ricci.

This is opposition research: a constant shadow on Capitol Hill.

"The whole business of getting Supreme Court nominees through the process has become bloodsport," said Gary Rose, a government and politics professor at Sacred Heart University in Fairfield, Conn.

On Friday, citing in an e-mail "Frank Ricci's troubled and litigious work history," the liberal advocacy group People for the American Way drew reporters' attention to Ricci's past. Other advocates for Sotomayor have discreetly urged journalists to pursue similar story lines.

With his awards for bravery, some 17 years of fire department service and history of overcoming dyslexia, Ricci has become a compelling human character in the Sotomayor confirmation drama. Senate Republicans have summoned him, along with Lt. Ben Vargas of the New Haven Fire Department, as two of their 14 witnesses next week.

Though even Republicans concede Sotomayor appears poised to win confirmation, the hearing and Ricci's part in them could be exploited politically. The case is symbolic of race-based preferences, which conservatives have long rejected.

"Affirmative action remains a potentially useful issue for the GOP," Rose noted, and "this case has the potential of perhaps mobilizing the Republican party again."

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina added that many Americans can identify with Ricci, making him an especially attractive witness for the GOP and potentially dangerous for Democrats.

"He took on a second job and worked hard, but was denied due to the same legal concepts" that were designed to protect people's rights, Graham said.

How low can they go? This is an average guy that is trying to get a deserved promotion and they are out to ruin him. It reminds me of "Joe the Plumber" and the media going after him. This is further proof that the media is biased. I wish the media spent half this much effort trying to vet our current president.

J.B.
07-11-2009, 06:08 PM
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/71660.html





How low can they go? This is an average guy that is trying to get a deserved promotion and they are out to ruin him. It reminds me of "Joe the Plumber" and the media going after him. This is further proof that the media is biased. I wish the media spent half this much effort trying to vet our current president.


Oh, "they" can go a lot lower than this...

The media is MORE than just biased...it's the epitome of soul-less greed and lies in our society. Joe the Plumber seemed like a decent guy, but he was asking for it by getting so involved. That's how it works when you step in the public eye.

rockdawg21
07-11-2009, 09:49 PM
This is crazy, it's only a matter of time before he starts receiving threats.

KENTUCKYREDBONE
07-12-2009, 09:07 AM
Look at it from the lefts point of view. How dare anyone ask for fairness,justice or oppose Obama!

NateR
07-12-2009, 06:30 PM
Don't you all know that this is America? Which means that anyone who disagrees with a Liberal MUST be destroyed.

The left-wing is kind of like the Nazi Gestapo that way:

We have Freedom of Speech, as long as you never disagree with the liberal talking points.

We have Freedom of Choice, as long our choices line up with liberal values.

We have Freedom of Religion, as long as our chosen religion takes a back seat to secular humanism and the liberal power elite.

We have a right to a fair trial, unless you're rich, or a Christian, or a man; then you must be punished for your crimes to the fullest extent of the law.

You can be patriotic and love your country, as long as you agree that America is pure evil and is solely responsible for all the ills of the world (The world was a perfect utopia, before our evil, greedy country came along).

Those are just a few pre-requisites if you are to be allowed freedom in liberal America..... just like our Founding Fathers described. :rolleyes:

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 06:50 PM
American Dream promises the persuit of...the ability to...opportunity...and chance.

It says nothing about Guarenteed success, nothing about results.

This is what work place politics is all about. He should be doing the same to her. That is how you get into office. Morality has nothing to do with it. You cover your own skelletons and you expose the skelletons of others.

Persuit of YOUR life, YOUR Happiness, YOUR Freedom, YOUR Liberty. Not His. Not your Competitors, Not the person who strives, but doesnt quite make it. Nor, incidently should they be helpped back to their feet.

This is what Capitalism is all about. Selfishness....and before you say they are Government, and not buying or selling...the principles are the same. Money and Power...thats what makes Fortune...everyone has the chance to obtain both and thus complete there dream.

Nietzsche...would say that you should only be in persuit of your becoming IF it doesnt have an adverse effect on Others. Capitalism says...use your opponent and your competition to further and advance your own becoming.

She is not acting outside of the Norm. THATS the travisty. :sad:

NateR
07-12-2009, 07:00 PM
American Dream promises the persuit of...the ability to...opportunity...and chance.

It says nothing about Guarenteed success, nothing about results.

This is what work place politics is all about. He should be doing the same to her. That is how you get into office. Morality has nothing to do with it. You cover your own skelletons and you expose the skelletons of others.

Persuit of YOUR life, YOUR Happiness, YOUR Freedom, YOUR Liberty. Not His. Not your Competitors, Not the person who strives, but doesnt quite make it. Nor, incidently should they be helpped back to their feet.

This is what Capitalism is all about. Selfishness....and before you say they are Government, and not buying or selling...the principles are the same. Money and Power...thats what makes Fortune...everyone has the chance to obtain both and thus complete there dream.

Nietzsche...would say that you should only be in persuit of your becoming IF it doesnt have an adverse effect on Others. Capitalism says...use your opponent and your competition to further and advance your own becoming.

She is not acting outside of the Norm. THATS the travisty. :sad:

If you think capitalism is about greed, then you really don't understand capitalism at all. Capitalism is destroyed by greed, which is why the Founding Fathers knew that our nation NEEDS a firm foundation in Christian values of charity and mercy. It's when we abandoned those Christian values that greed took over.

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 07:48 PM
If you think capitalism is about greed, then you really don't understand capitalism at all. Capitalism is destroyed by greed, which is why the Founding Fathers knew that our nation NEEDS a firm foundation in Christian values of charity and mercy. It's when we abandoned those Christian values that greed took over.
No, Capitalism isnt distroyed by Greed...the problem is, its enhanced by Greed...thats the problem. They say "its just business". The Morality brings boundaries to Capitalism, drop those boundaries and Capital gains can go further...Further then intended by your forefathers...its holding to that saying, "give a centimetre and they'll take an inch" its about abusing the Freedom.

Greed has taken over. Now you see what this lady has done with missuse of the Freedom she has been given.

How do we start to...re-address the ballence Nathan :unsure-1: How do we put the charity, mercy, and morality BACK into capitalism :huh:

NateR
07-12-2009, 08:46 PM
No, Capitalism isnt distroyed by Greed...the problem is, its enhanced by Greed...thats the problem. They say "its just business". The Morality brings boundaries to Capitalism, drop those boundaries and Capital gains can go further...Further then intended by your forefathers...its holding to that saying, "give a centimetre and they'll take an inch" its about abusing the Freedom.

Greed has taken over. Now you see what this lady has done with missuse of the Freedom she has been given.

How do we start to...re-address the ballence Nathan :unsure-1: How do we put the charity, mercy, and morality BACK into capitalism :huh:

Wrong, that's like saying that Christianity is "enhanced" by greed because men like Jim Baker and Benny Hinn swindle people out of money by claiming that it is going to GOD.

Like Christianity, people can manipulate capitalism to suit their selfish ambitions, but it doesn't mean that capitalism is inherently about greed.

You're assuming that the goal of capitalism is to get rich. That's not necessarily the case. Many people just have the wish to be able to make a living doing something that they love. Only a free-market, capitalist society provides the freedom to do that. Not everyone desires to be rich.

What you are seeing a corrupted version of capitalism in America today, not what was originally intended by our founders.

Tyburn
07-12-2009, 11:19 PM
Wrong, that's like saying that Christianity is "enhanced" by greed because men like Jim Baker and Benny Hinn swindle people out of money by claiming that it is going to GOD.

Like Christianity, people can manipulate capitalism to suit their selfish ambitions, but it doesn't mean that capitalism is inherently about greed.

You're assuming that the goal of capitalism is to get rich. That's not necessarily the case. Many people just have the wish to be able to make a living doing something that they love. Only a free-market, capitalist society provides the freedom to do that. Not everyone desires to be rich.

What you are seeing a corrupted version of capitalism in America today, not what was originally intended by our founders.
By "enhanced" I meant...that some people could persue their freedoms even more then intended...not that the persuit of those freedoms beyond those which first considered was actually good.

Nathan, the vast majority of people in buisness are out to make AS MUCH money as possible...and this isnt an Americanism...this is everywhere. The Goal of Capitalism is to make as much money as possible

Most people do work to pay the bills, VERY few people love what they do for money. Most people would not go to work if they had the money to survive without it.

It is in Mans fallen nature to be selfish Nathan. Greed its one of the most prevelent sins IMHO.

You can have moralist Capitalism...but its few and far between. Thus Far I have only really found one insitution in Mixed Martial Arts whose goal is to make money...be exceptionally Moral....I've found others who are willing to be moral when it suits their own persuit.

its a nasty world out there Nathan :sad: it makes me sad and depressed...and fearful :unsure-1:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
07-15-2009, 08:29 AM
To me the goal of Capitalism is to get paid what your work is worth! In others words if you build more houses than your neighbor builds you should get paid more. Now that's providing you followed the rules and everything else is equal. Lets look at it a different way. Under Capitalism a Brian surgeon should make more than I do for unloading trucks! Why? Cause the Brian surgeon is so highly skilled and rare that he's worth it. What your seeing with the folks attacking those who disagree with Obama is more like Tyranny and Communism than Capitalism. The purpose of law in a Capitalistic society is supposed to be make everyone play by the same rules!

Tyburn
07-15-2009, 01:33 PM
To me the goal of Capitalism is to get paid what your work is worth! In others words if you build more houses than your neighbor builds you should get paid more. Now that's providing you followed the rules and everything else is equal. Lets look at it a different way. Under Capitalism a Brian surgeon should make more than I do for unloading trucks! Why? Cause the Brian surgeon is so highly skilled and rare that he's worth it. What your seeing with the folks attacking those who disagree with Obama is more like Tyranny and Communism than Capitalism. The purpose of law in a Capitalistic society is supposed to be make everyone play by the same rules!

But the thing is that, I suspect you find brian surgeons are paid more then they are worth, and you are payed less.

See you then get bankers claiming that because they are highly skilled and work in a very stressful environment they are STILL dispite the economy, STILL worth thousands in Bonus....people like me who work for Wal-Mart...enmass our job is very important...but indivudally, not so much...so we get paid sometimes less then we can really live on.:sad:

Neezar
07-15-2009, 02:25 PM
But the thing is that, I suspect you find brian surgeons are paid more then they are worth, and you are payed less.



So. Then you shop around and find one cheaper. You CAN do that here in the US. You can actually shop around and bargain with them over the price. You *gasp* get to choose! :happydancing:




See you then get bankers claiming that because they are highly skilled and work in a very stressful environment they are STILL dispite the economy, STILL worth thousands in Bonus....people like me who work for Wal-Mart...enmass our job is very important...but indivudally, not so much...so we get paid sometimes less then we can really live on.:sad:

That is actually the beauty of it! You can go to school and be that banker. Not happy with your pay? Want a better paying job? Then YOU get to do something about it. You......:w00t: get to choose!



p.s. Blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make yours burn brighter. (In other words reducing their pay still isn't going to increase yours.)

NateR
07-15-2009, 02:36 PM
p.s. Blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make yours burn brighter. (In other words reducing their pay still isn't going to increase yours.)

Exactly, the solution to poverty is not to create more poor people. Which is exactly what all these government social programs do.

If you don't like your job or your paycheck, then you go get the education or training required to get a better job with better pay. It's as easy as that if you live in a free country. If you can't afford the education, then just take the initiative to teach yourself.

Tyburn
07-15-2009, 02:51 PM
So. Then you shop around and find one cheaper. You CAN do that here in the US. You can actually shop around and bargain with them over the price. You *gasp* get to choose! :happydancing:





That is actually the beauty of it! You can go to school and be that banker. Not happy with your pay? Want a better paying job? Then YOU get to do something about it. You......:w00t: get to choose!



p.s. Blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make yours burn brighter. (In other words reducing their pay still isn't going to increase yours.)
How about they just pay everyone what they are actually worth?

I'm not saying reduce the bankers pay, I'm saying increase the wage on manual labourers...where would you be without the person who actually stocked, or ordered, the stuff you buy from the supermarket?

unless you grow your own and can be entirely selfsufficent, then you relay on those people. that makes them worth more. :)

NateR
07-15-2009, 03:44 PM
How about they just pay everyone what they are actually worth?

I'm not saying reduce the bankers pay, I'm saying increase the wage on manual labourers...where would you be without the person who actually stocked, or ordered, the stuff you buy from the supermarket?

unless you grow your own and can be entirely selfsufficent, then you relay on those people. that makes them worth more. :)

Well, that doesn't really work in the real world, because how do you determine what an individual is worth and who makes that determination?

In a capitalist system, the manual laborer's work ethic, expertise and integrity is what determines how much he gets paid. The system is designed to promote good workers above bad workers.

If a good worker is paid too little, then he will likely move elsewhere for a better job or go into business for himself. If a bad worker is paid too much, then his employers lose money or, in the case of the self-employed, word of mouth from dissatisfied customers will prevent him from getting further work.

So honesty, knowledge, and work ethic are what determine who is worth what in the free market.

In a government run system or unionized job field, bad workers are paid just as much as good workers and companies lose money, forcing lay-offs or bankruptcy, thus increasing the unemployment rate. When the government steps in and raises the minimum wage, it crushes small businesses. Because a small "mom and pop" store, that may only be able to afford 3 employees, will suddenly only be able to afford 2 employees. So raising minimum wage increases unemployment. Many claim that higher minimum wages help people who work for big corporations, but most of those companies pay above minimum wage salaries anyway.

Let's say you need a plumber to repair all of the old pipes in your home. A unionized or government run system would be working under the assumption that all plumbers are created equal. However, anyone who has actually hired a plumber knows for a fact that that is NOT the case. Some might be so inept or inexperienced that they actually do more damage to your home. A free market system is designed to root out the bad and promote the good. Is the system perfect? Not at all, but it is much better than the alternative.

Tyburn
07-15-2009, 05:58 PM
Well, that doesn't really work in the real world, because how do you determine what an individual is worth and who makes that determination?

In a capitalist system, the manual laborer's work ethic, expertise and integrity is what determines how much he gets paid. The system is designed to promote good workers above bad workers.

If a good worker is paid too little, then he will likely move elsewhere for a better job or go into business for himself. If a bad worker is paid too much, then his employers lose money or

So honesty, knowledge, and work ethic are what determine who is worth what in the free market.
.
Well, I dont know about "the real world" but since I do work for one of the worlds largest retailers...perhaps I should inform you that, THAT, doesnt work.

It doesnt work due to work place politics. The management dont want hard workers, what they want is tantamount to slavery. Work hard, and rather then reward you, they will expect that extra mile to be attained each and every moment of your working life.

As for progression. Well some of the best collegues in the store, are those who have worked for twenty five years. They will never be managers because the management system is not designed for hard workers Nathan, its designed for those who can carry out the orders of the senior management, and keep an unreasonable attainment level affloat. They dont want people who can think for themselves :laugh: your not paid to think. your paid to follow orders :rolleyes:

Work for a big enough company, and you couldnt lose them true money if you tried :ninja: incidently...you're expendable aswell :unsure-1: :laugh:

Depressing...but we all know where we stand :)

You get paid a standard rate, set by your company, in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!

NateR
07-15-2009, 06:17 PM
Well, I dont know about "the real world" but since I do work for one of the worlds largest retailers...perhaps I should inform you that, THAT, doesnt work.

It doesnt work due to work place politics. The management dont want hard workers, what they want is tantamount to slavery. Work hard, and rather then reward you, they will expect that extra mile to be attained each and every moment of your working life.

As for progression. Well some of the best collegues in the store, are those who have worked for twenty five years. They will never be managers because the management system is not designed for hard workers Nathan, its designed for those who can carry out the orders of the senior management, and keep an unreasonable attainment level affloat. They dont want people who can think for themselves :laugh: your not paid to think. your paid to follow orders :rolleyes:

Work for a big enough company, and you couldnt lose them true money if you tried :ninja: incidently...you're expendable aswell :unsure-1: :laugh:

Depressing...but we all know where we stand :)

You get paid a standard rate, set by your company, in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!

Well, of course the system isn't going to work for you, it's designed for America and you live in England.:laugh:

You're also comparing a system designed to promote entrepreneurism to a system that is essentially modern slavery. Of course that exists in the United States as well, but people here are free to strike out on their own anytime they want and achieve success based on their own hard work and merit. Of course it's risky and no one is guaranteed equal results, but that's what freedom is all about.

Play The Man
07-15-2009, 06:35 PM
But the thing is that, I suspect you find brian surgeons are paid more then they are worth, and you are payed less.

I am going to stick up for the brain surgeon. Before he becomes a brain surgeon, he must go through 4 years of university. After university, he must attend four years of medical school. After medical school, he must be accepted into a surgical internship (1 year). After the internship, he must be accepted into a neurosurgery residency, which is 5 years. After the residency, he may or may not subspecialize in a fellowship (1+ years). Admission to each step is incredibly competitive. Each step requires an incredible amount of sacrifice. The total bill for four years of university plus four years of medical school is easily several hundred thousand dollars. He will not have an income during the eight years of university and medical school, unless he also holds down a part-time job. It is highly likely that the neurosurgeon is $250,000 in debt (not counting the interest) before he makes one penny. During his internship and residency, he will work 80 hour weeks (used to be 100+ hours per week until reform was instituted) for years on end. No weekends off. No holidays off. His pay is lousy. His pay per hour worked during the residency would yield an hourly wage less than a teenager working the counter at McDonald's. The pay that you see quoted, will not start until he is in his mid-30's in age, at the earliest. Once he becomes a brain surgeon, he will be sued for malpractice - there was a recent survey of a large group of neurosurgeons and every single one had been sued. No matter how well he does his job, people will die and relatives will file lawsuits. For the rest of his life, he will carry a pager, to be on call at a moment's notice, to get up out of bed in the middle of the night, and evacuate blood from an accident victim's skull. Due to the poor work hours, he will likely be divorced (studies show high rates of divorce) If you still think he is overpaid, then apply for the job, because for some reason there is a shortage of them - I guess not many people like the easy money.

Chris F
07-15-2009, 07:36 PM
Well, I dont know about "the real world" but since I do work for one of the worlds largest retailers...perhaps I should inform you that, THAT, doesnt work.

It doesnt work due to work place politics. The management dont want hard workers, what they want is tantamount to slavery. Work hard, and rather then reward you, they will expect that extra mile to be attained each and every moment of your working life.

As for progression. Well some of the best collegues in the store, are those who have worked for twenty five years. They will never be managers because the management system is not designed for hard workers Nathan, its designed for those who can carry out the orders of the senior management, and keep an unreasonable attainment level affloat. They dont want people who can think for themselves :laugh: your not paid to think. your paid to follow orders :rolleyes:

Work for a big enough company, and you couldnt lose them true money if you tried :ninja: incidently...you're expendable aswell :unsure-1: :laugh:

Depressing...but we all know where we stand :)

You get paid a standard rate, set by your company, in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!

It does work. I worked fro Wal Mart started at 6.50 back in the day that was above Minimum Wage. I worked hard made myself valuable. My first review I got a 1.25 raise. 2 month later they were wanting to put me in their management training and give me a 8.00 an hour raise at the end of that training. Why? Because of hard word and initiative to learn. People say Wal Mart is greedy. But the fact is they pay well for good workers. My wife works there now and makes more then I do and I manage a restaurant right now. Now I wish I would have took them up on their offer back then.

Tyburn
07-15-2009, 08:54 PM
You're also comparing a system designed to promote entrepreneurism to a system that is essentially modern slavery.
Well..thats what it feels like :laugh:

but then...perhaps if I was further up the chain I would think differently, you know :laugh: :laugh:

I do however work for an essentially American Company :w00t: its the closest I can get :happydancing: :laugh:

Tyburn
07-15-2009, 08:59 PM
It does work. I worked fro Wal Mart started at 6.50 back in the day that was above Minimum Wage. I worked hard made myself valuable. My first review I got a 1.25 raise. 2 month later they were wanting to put me in their management training and give me a 8.00 an hour raise at the end of that training. Why? Because of hard word and initiative to learn. People say Wal Mart is greedy. But the fact is they pay well for good workers. My wife works there now and makes more then I do and I manage a restaurant right now. Now I wish I would have took them up on their offer back then.
thats not the policy they implement in England...but then, I dont know how much of the companies ins and outs, in Wal-Mart...and how much of it is simply that Wal-Mart owns ASDA, a company that had existed BEFORE and had protocols already in place.

I think the training side of things might not really be controlled by America. I think that might simply be purely British in design and implementation. Our Chain does have a CEO that isnt based in the United States...and it still keeps its old name (its run by...but not called...Wal-Mart)

There are places that I have worked which are far worse then Wal-Mart. As an Organisation they arent that bad...if only they paid the grunts a little bit more :laugh:

Tyburn
07-15-2009, 09:15 PM
I am going to stick up for the brain surgeon. Before he becomes a brain surgeon, he must go through 4 years of university. After university, he must attend four years of medical school. After medical school, he must be accepted into a surgical internship (1 year). After the internship, he must be accepted into a neurosurgery residency, which is 5 years. After the residency, he may or may not subspecialize in a fellowship (1+ years). Admission to each step is incredibly competitive. Each step requires an incredible amount of sacrifice. The total bill for four years of university plus four years of medical school is easily several hundred thousand dollars. He will not have an income during the eight years of university and medical school, unless he also holds down a part-time job. It is highly likely that the neurosurgeon is $250,000 in debt (not counting the interest) before he makes one penny. During his internship and residency, he will work 80 hour weeks (used to be 100+ hours per week until reform was instituted) for years on end. No weekends off. No holidays off. His pay is lousy. His pay per hour worked during the residency would yield an hourly wage less than a teenager working the counter at McDonald's. The pay that you see quoted, will not start until he is in his mid-30's in age, at the earliest. Once he becomes a brain surgeon, he will be sued for malpractice - there was a recent survey of a large group of neurosurgeons and every single one had been sued. No matter how well he does his job, people will die and relatives will file lawsuits. For the rest of his life, he will carry a pager, to be on call at a moment's notice, to get up out of bed in the middle of the night, and evacuate blood from an accident victim's skull. Due to the poor work hours, he will likely be divorced (studies show high rates of divorce) If you still think he is overpaid, then apply for the job, because for some reason there is a shortage of them - I guess not many people like the easy money.

You speak as if you are a Brian Surgeon :unsure-1: :huh:

Everyone is in Debt from University, from Tuition Fees, from Student Loans...you dont, in this country, start to pay it back till you earn a substantial ammount more then me. I dont count it as debt since I dont qualify to pay it back at present :laugh:

My point isnt that he may be paid to much...its that Brain Surgeon would starve if there was no shops to sell him food. I bring the food to him. I should get paid more because he relies on me to do that. The reason I dont is because supermarkets take so many people doing the same thing just to keep afloat that, as an individual, I'm just one hand in many doing the same thing...so he relies on my office, not me personally...somehow that means I shouldnt be paid for basically supporting him in that way.

Its a form of Administration....Administration is actually a Spiritual Gift...did you realize that? The ability to support others so they can do what they do is considered a task empowered by spiritual gifts....Being blessed with the tallent to be a brain surgeon...well thats just GOD given tallent...people forget something about The Kingdom of GOD...its upside down. Those at the top are humbled, those at the bottom are lifted up. I think that the gift of administration is mentioned because firstly SO many people are involved in it. I bet more people are in the business of Administration then have the gift of tongues. But its not glorious. All it does is enable the main function to be carried out, by others.

Since when have you heard of the team who tirelessly drive the Octagon around for the UFC, and who probably take a whole day over setting it up to ensure all safety procedures? How often to you here of the ticket collector who stands on the door making sure people know where to sit in a vast auditorium? Who orders the food for the bars? Who sets up the merchandise Stalls??

Without those people, the Event couldnt be staged. When all those people do their job of supporting, it allows Dana White and the Fetittas to get on with doing the main focus of the project. It allows the Fighters not to have to worry or think about, say, where their dressing room is...? Who will call them when its time to go live? Administration is VAST...I think that it accounts for about half of everything that happens.

But Those people wont get paid as much as Dana White now, will they. Thats my point. Its not that people in high office get paid to much. The surgeon probably deserves his Money (certain bankers DO NOT) its more that the general Administration...the people on the ground...they deserve more.

Guess who has to deal with the rude Customer? its not the Director of Wal-Mart. Guess who has to deal with the foul mouthed loud drunken MMA fan after an event, and clear up their mess...It wont be Dana White...

NateR
07-15-2009, 09:19 PM
You speak as if you are a Brian Surgeon :unsure-1: :huh:


Technically, it's "Brain Surgeon," but don't worry about it too much, Dave, we can't all be Brain Surgeons. Some of us just have to settle for being Brian Surgeons. :laugh:

NateR
07-15-2009, 09:29 PM
Dave, you pay people based on relevant skills, intelligence required by their job and the amount of education they have that specifically applies to that job.

Nobody has to get a college scholarship to learn how to stock vegetables in a grocery store. You don't even need a high school diploma to do that. Which is why there are so many kids working these kinds of jobs in America and, if all of them got fired today, they would be easily replaced before the end of the week. Hence, the low pay.

That's the difference between skilled and unskilled labor.

I'm surprised that someone like you would be so quick to try to dismiss the value of education in the workplace.

Play The Man
07-15-2009, 09:51 PM
You speak as if you are a Brian Surgeon :unsure-1: :huh:


"The details of my life are quite inconsequential!":ninja:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVaz8ZZxoxo

Play The Man
07-15-2009, 11:03 PM
Tyburn, I really sympathize with the sentiments that you have expressed in several posts throughout this thread; however, I don't know of a way better than the free market, as cold and unfeeling as it is, to assign value for work. The free market gets it wrong a lot of the time - rap music stars making millions while teachers and soldiers make very modest incomes; however, most other systems are even worse. Utopian communities usually don't last one generation. The past century witnessed the largest body count in history mostly due to the communist theories (and practice) of Marx. Western European socialism likely will not last through this century due to demographic collapse - there will not be enough 20 and 30 year-olds working to support the welfare state and the healthcare and pension costs of the more numerous elderly (unless of course there is even more massive immigration, which will likely destroy the system by other, more sinister, means). I find it ironic that you state that you are a royalist. A strong monarchy has a whole class of people given huge amounts of wealth for no other reason than the circumstances of their birth. At least a meritocracy awards high achievers for their hard work, talent or sacrifice. A monarchy gives you an inbred incompetent like Prince Charles, using up the hard-earned resources of his subjects as he babbles on about how he wants to be his mistress's tampon!

You should study the lesson of the bucolic proverb: "When it comes to ham and eggs for breakfast, the chicken is involved; the pig is committed.":scared0011: Currently you are involved with a job; the committed usually are more highly rewarded. If you want to earn more money you need to risk more and get committed. Start a business - if you succeed then you reap the rewards, if you fail it is all on you. I would bet that your current position offers some element of job security, scheduled breaks, reasonable hours, etc. despite not paying as much as you would like (and probably rightly deserve). If you are truly that disappointed with your position, you should strike out on you own. If you work hard, there is a great chance that you will succeed; however, be warned, the small business owner doesn't get coffee breaks or overtime or weekends off and if the business fails you would not just lose a job, you would lose everything. If you want to stay where you are at, then do something radical: work during break-time, come early to work and stay late (unpaid if necessary), volunteer for extra responsibility, greet every customer with a salutation, etc. It might go unnoticed and unrewarded for a time; however, I would bet that in the long run it would bring rewards. In addition, if you are serious about building wealth, I would recommend a second job. Yes, your life will be difficult, but many, if not most, of the high-earners don't put in a 40 hour work-week (does Europe even work that long?), they put in 50, 60 or 70 hour work-weeks (or more).

Chris F
07-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Dave, you pay people based on relevant skills, intelligence required by their job and the amount of education they have that specifically applies to that job.

Nobody has to get a college scholarship to learn how to stock vegetables in a grocery store. You don't even need a high school diploma to do that. Which is why there are so many kids working these kinds of jobs in America and, if all of them got fired today, they would be easily replaced before the end of the week. Hence, the low pay.

That's the difference between skilled and unskilled labor.

I'm surprised that someone like you would be so quick to try to dismiss the value of education in the workplace.

I wish education helped more then it did. I have a Masters and could only find restaurant management. A friend of mine has a JD and he is delivering Pizza's. So education does not always translate into more money. However I am paid a lot more then most who have no degree but more in work experience so my education has helped some. But it also has hurt me. I have been told 4 time in the last month I am over qualified for entry level collegiate jobs.

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 12:08 AM
Technically, it's "Brain Surgeon," but don't worry about it too much, Dave, we can't all be Brain Surgeons. Some of us just have to settle for being Brian Surgeons. :laugh:
...now you know why I'm not one of them :blink: :laugh:

Play The Man
07-16-2009, 12:13 AM
I wish education helped more then it did. I have a Masters and could only find restaurant management. A friend of mine has a JD and he is delivering Pizza's. So education does not always translate into more money. However I am paid a lot more then most who have no degree but more in work experience so my education has helped some. But it also has hurt me. I have been told 4 time in the last month I am over qualified for entry level collegiate jobs.

It must be very frustrating. Don't give up.

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 12:22 AM
Dave, you pay people based on relevant skills, intelligence required by their job and the amount of education they have that specifically applies to that job.

Nobody has to get a college scholarship to learn how to stock vegetables in a grocery store. You don't even need a high school diploma to do that. Which is why there are so many kids working these kinds of jobs in America and, if all of them got fired today, they would be easily replaced before the end of the week. Hence, the low pay.

That's the difference between skilled and unskilled labor.

I'm surprised that someone like you would be so quick to try to dismiss the value of education in the workplace.
Thats partly because I'm extremely educated....and look where its got me.

See Education doesnt always teach you skills that are useful in the workplace, neither can you always get that calibre job that you are qualified to. I have 10 GCSEs, 1 Alevel, 1 Advanced GNVQ, One Degree, and creditations in a Masters. With the proliferation of degrees in England now, they are begining to lose their worth. At one time, having a degree made you a scholar...now every working class moron probably has a degree to his name...what differentiates people now is experience...but you cant get job experience without starting at the bottom.

I was doing well in the church til I got forced out.

I have no intention of staying at ASDA, but I dont exactly know which field I want to be in, and its vital I show I can hold down a job...any job...I was going to leave last year...but then something happened in a place called Wall Street, and I discovered even if my job is low paid and im grossly over qualified...it is a safe job. Businesses in this country collapsed...now is not the time to be making unneeded risks. Wal-Mart is not really effected by whats going on, they are that mass, they have an internal economy that rivals small european governments! Short of them pulling out of England and my chain, I'm safer to stay where I am.

In the meantime I tried to get involved with Cage Gladiators, a promotion in Liverpool...not sure how many of you have taken notice of the side stuff that I've been working on. Published by a leading Magazine in this country for MMA, not once, but four times in the last year, multiple publishing online....and Liverpool was looking like a very real move.


...last month Cage Gladiators collapsed. Good job I didnt move earlier I suppose. Some would look at it as a frustrating setback...others would say its CV worthy material and all good experience...meanwhile I continue my correspondance with the new Promotion in Hull which is fronted by a clothing company...and am due to check out a promotion that should see the debut of a friend of mine, in the north of England before my States Tour...which, btw, is taking some careful planning. I am travelling alone, and its not package, I have to make all the arrangements myself...plenty of people older then me in this country wouldnt have the courage to do it. They think I'm quite mad to go on holiday, abroad, alone, not even with a package tour, to see a vast majoirty of people I have never physically met, nor spoken to before. I tell them "Its okay, they are American, absolutely nothing to worry about. I tell them, that if I get into bother, all I need to is speak, and they will know I am English by my accent, and because of that, I am confident that even a stranger will help me, if I cant find the right Train Station...or get lost at the airport. I tel them...that in America people smile, say hello to one another, and are very friendly...particularly if you stay away from the bigger cities. They ask me how I know that.

I tell them of my experience with you two years ago. :w00t: :laugh:

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 12:33 AM
Tyburn, I really sympathize with the sentiments that you have expressed in several posts throughout this thread; however, I don't know of a way better than the free market, as cold and unfeeling as it is, to assign value for work. The free market gets it wrong a lot of the time - rap music stars making millions while teachers and soldiers make very modest incomes; however, most other systems are even worse. Utopian communities usually don't last one generation. The past century witnessed the largest body count in history mostly due to the communist theories (and practice) of Marx. Western European socialism likely will not last through this century due to demographic collapse - there will not be enough 20 and 30 year-olds working to support the welfare state and the healthcare and pension costs of the more numerous elderly (unless of course there is even more massive immigration, which will likely destroy the system by other, more sinister, means). I find it ironic that you state that you are a royalist. A strong monarchy has a whole class of people given huge amounts of wealth for no other reason than the circumstances of their birth. At least a meritocracy awards high achievers for their hard work, talent or sacrifice. A monarchy gives you an inbred incompetent like Prince Charles, using up the hard-earned resources of his subjects as he babbles on about how he wants to be his mistress's tampon!

You should study the lesson of the bucolic proverb: "When it comes to ham and eggs for breakfast, the chicken is involved; the pig is committed.":scared0011: Currently you are involved with a job; the committed usually are more highly rewarded. If you want to earn more money you need to risk more and get committed. Start a business - if you succeed then you reap the rewards, if you fail it is all on you. I would bet that your current position offers some element of job security, scheduled breaks, reasonable hours, etc. despite not paying as much as you would like (and probably rightly deserve). If you are truly that disappointed with your position, you should strike out on you own. If you work hard, there is a great chance that you will succeed; however, be warned, the small business owner doesn't get coffee breaks or overtime or weekends off and if the business fails you would not just lose a job, you would lose everything. If you want to stay where you are at, then do something radical: work during break-time, come early to work and stay late (unpaid if necessary), volunteer for extra responsibility, greet every customer with a salutation, etc. It might go unnoticed and unrewarded for a time; however, I would bet that in the long run it would bring rewards. In addition, if you are serious about building wealth, I would recommend a second job. Yes, your life will be difficult, but many, if not most, of the high-earners don't put in a 40 hour work-week (does Europe even work that long?), they put in 50, 60 or 70 hour work-weeks (or more).
Yes...but who wants to be a pig :blink: :huh: :laugh:

I work forty Hours...they wont let me work more then that...I work the most hours of anyone on our department except for the manager, who is on a salery, so he isnt paid on an hourly basis

As for Monarchy...well...really...England isnt full of many Lords and Ladies, anymore...and those who become...are usually done so, not by the Monarchy...but by Parliament...who tends to be as corrupt as to reward large donations to their parties with peerages...and a seat in the House of Lords....

Thank GOD we are not a Republic or there would be no calling them to account without a civil war...which incidently, was such a dismall failiure, the very person who charged to get rid of the Monarch...disbanded his own government on the grounds of corruption and...the monarchy got restored.

Unbeknown to many, England DID have a Political Revolution...the only one who seems to remember it was Charles....he kinda lost his head... :laugh: I wonder if there is anything in the name of a Monarch...if so...we're down the creek without a paddle...coz our Heir is called Charles...


.....Madame Guilotine (and I am not refering to a submission move there...)

Play The Man
07-16-2009, 12:58 AM
Thats partly because I'm extremely educated....and look where its got me.

See Education doesnt always teach you skills that are useful in the workplace, neither can you always get that calibre job that you are qualified to. I have 10 GCSEs, 1 Alevel, 1 Advanced GNVQ, One Degree, and creditations in a Masters. With the proliferation of degrees in England now, they are begining to lose their worth. At one time, having a degree made you a scholar...now every working class moron probably has a degree to his name...what differentiates people now is experience...but you cant get job experience without starting at the bottom.

I was doing well in the church til I got forced out.

I have no intention of staying at ASDA, but I dont exactly know which field I want to be in, and its vital I show I can hold down a job...any job...I was going to leave last year...but then something happened in a place called Wall Street, and I discovered even if my job is low paid and im grossly over qualified...it is a safe job. Businesses in this country collapsed...now is not the time to be making unneeded risks. Wal-Mart is not really effected by whats going on, they are that mass, they have an internal economy that rivals small european governments! Short of them pulling out of England and my chain, I'm safer to stay where I am.

In the meantime I tried to get involved with Cage Gladiators, a promotion in Liverpool...not sure how many of you have taken notice of the side stuff that I've been working on. Published by a leading Magazine in this country for MMA, not once, but four times in the last year, multiple publishing online....and Liverpool was looking like a very real move.


...last month Cage Gladiators collapsed. Good job I didnt move earlier I suppose. Some would look at it as a frustrating setback...others would say its CV worthy material and all good experience...meanwhile I continue my correspondance with the new Promotion in Hull which is fronted by a clothing company...and am due to check out a promotion that should see the debut of a friend of mine, in the north of England before my States Tour...which, btw, is taking some careful planning. I am travelling alone, and its not package, I have to make all the arrangements myself...plenty of people older then me in this country wouldnt have the courage to do it. They think I'm quite mad to go on holiday, abroad, alone, not even with a package tour, to see a vast majoirty of people I have never physically met, nor spoken to before. I tell them "Its okay, they are American, absolutely nothing to worry about. I tell them, that if I get into bother, all I need to is speak, and they will know I am English by my accent, and because of that, I am confident that even a stranger will help me, if I cant find the right Train Station...or get lost at the airport. I tel them...that in America people smile, say hello to one another, and are very friendly...particularly if you stay away from the bigger cities. They ask me how I know that.

I tell them of my experience with you two years ago. :w00t: :laugh:

Trust me, the MMA writing will not be in vain - even if it bears fruit indirectly. My father was told by his boss, years after he was hired, that the reason he got the job was because he mentioned at the very bottom of his resume that he had been a boy scout as a child! His education, work experience, etc. didn't clinch it for his boss - it was the fact that he had been a boy scout! Apparently, the boss admired the boy scout ethic and used his mention of the scouts as an augury that he would be the right man for the job. They both worked for the same place together for many, many years and try to keep in contact in their retirements. I am not a prophet but I would not be surprised if you get the best job of your life, whether it be in the COE or business, because the boss is a closet MMA fan and hires you because you mention the MMA writing on your CV as an afterthought.:laugh:

Play The Man
07-16-2009, 01:19 AM
Yes...but who wants to be a pig :blink: :huh: :laugh:

I work forty Hours...they wont let me work more then that...I work the most hours of anyone on our department except for the manager, who is on a salery, so he isnt paid on an hourly basis


I am being serious and trying to help. Take a second job. It doesn't have to be glamorous. Deliver pizzas for 10 hours per week. If you can clear an extra $100 in pay and tips per week and do it for two years, you will have an extra $10,000. You can use that to start up a small business. Alternatively, put the $10,000 in the stock market (no I am not crazy, one good thing about the bad economy is that some good stocks are currently dirt cheap) and hold it there for retirement. If you are in your late 20s and retire in your late 60s, that relatively small amount of money, assuming a reasonable, but not spectacular, growth rate, will have grown, thanks to the magic of compounding, to $500,000 (of course who knows how much that will buy in 40 years . . . and likely your government will have a 95% capital gains tax by that time; however, you get my meaning)

Neezar
07-16-2009, 04:40 PM
By "enhanced" I meant...that some people could persue their freedoms even more then intended...not that the persuit of those freedoms beyond those which first considered was actually good.

Nathan, the vast majority of people in buisness are out to make AS MUCH money as possible...and this isnt an Americanism...this is everywhere. The Goal of Capitalism is to make as much money as possible

Most people do work to pay the bills, VERY few people love what they do for money. Most people would not go to work if they had the money to survive without it.

It is in Mans fallen nature to be selfish Nathan. Greed its one of the most prevelent sins IMHO.

You can have moralist Capitalism...but its few and far between. Thus Far I have only really found one insitution in Mixed Martial Arts whose goal is to make money...be exceptionally Moral....I've found others who are willing to be moral when it suits their own persuit.

its a nasty world out there Nathan :sad: it makes me sad and depressed...and fearful :unsure-1:

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but this post is so full of BS, Dave! You truly don't under Captialism. You are talking about exceptions to the rules here and NOT the norms.



Nathan, the vast majority of people in buisness are out to make AS MUCH money as possible...and this isnt an Americanism...this is everywhere. The Goal of Capitalism is to make as much money as possible



This may be true in some cases but MOST people will not sacrifice some things for money. For example, I could go to night shift, strictly weekends, or do travel nursing and make more money but I don't because it would take away from time with my family.

I could move my whole family to a different location and make more $$. Hubby would lose his job. He could find another but he is invested emotionally where he works. Almost EVERYONE I know I can give you an example of where they chose something else besides MORE money.




Most people do work to pay the bills, VERY few people love what they do for money. Most people would not go to work if they had the money to survive without it.


Again, how many people do you know that don't work because they have enough money to survive? Even millionaires that don't have to? They all DO something. You will find that People who choose NOT to work, it usually isn't about money. It is about laziness and lack of motivation.


It is in Mans fallen nature to be selfish Nathan. Greed its one of the most prevelent sins IMHO.

I think you sometimes confuse selfishness and self preservation. NOT always a bad thing.

Neezar
07-16-2009, 04:48 PM
You get paid a standard rate, set by your company (substitute the word company with government here) , in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!

Isn't that socialism? :huh:

Neezar
07-16-2009, 04:55 PM
Dave, you pay people based on relevant skills, intelligence required by their job and the amount of education they have that specifically applies to that job.

Nobody has to get a college scholarship to learn how to stock vegetables in a grocery store. You don't even need a high school diploma to do that. Which is why there are so many kids working these kinds of jobs in America and, if all of them got fired today, they would be easily replaced before the end of the week. Hence, the low pay.

That's the difference between skilled and unskilled labor.

I'm surprised that someone like you would be so quick to try to dismiss the value of education in the workplace.

They probaly don't value their education because it's free.

Well, unless you start getting rich. Then you have to pay it back.



With the proliferation of degrees in England now, they are begining to lose their worth. At one time, having a degree made you a scholar...now every working class moron probably has a degree to his name...what differentiates people now is experience...but you cant get job experience without starting at the bottom.

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 05:44 PM
1) I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but this post is so full of BS, Dave! You truly don't under Captialism. You are talking about exceptions to the rules here and NOT the norms.



2) This may be true in some cases but MOST people will not sacrifice some things for money. For example, I could go to night shift, strictly weekends, or do travel nursing and make more money but I don't because it would take away from time with my family.

I could move my whole family to a different location and make more $$. Hubby would lose his job. He could find another but he is invested emotionally where he works. Almost EVERYONE I know I can give you an example of where they chose something else besides MORE money.





3) Again, how many people do you know that don't work because they have enough money to survive? Even millionaires that don't have to? They all DO something. You will find that People who choose NOT to work, it usually isn't about money. It is about laziness and lack of motivation.




4) I think you sometimes confuse selfishness and self preservation. NOT always a bad thing.
1) No, actually, this is the practicalities of working some ideal that relies on a sense of moral aptitude...in an age where the vast moajority of people dont have any. You know that. You just argue for the sake of arguing with me :rolleyes:

2) Denise...most of the people in high management live for their jobs. Those who are incontrol of the "making money" bit, are not those people who are regular workers. I'm not talking about the position of a single Nurse...I'm talking about those who probably OWN the Hospital.

Those are the people who make decisions that influence thousands of people. In the world of banking, a group of directors, multi-millionaires verify a new procedure...a few years later almost everyone in the entire western world has seen the effects of a verra poor decision indeed. Some Director in ASDA decides without visiting the store to dump a particular supplier...and all the customers go up in arms because they cant buy whatever product it is that we dont sell anymore.

Its the decision making people that are leading capitalism. The rest of us do what we are told under them. Our singular effort wont change anything...but a single decision THEY make can have huge ramifications.

3) Usually they travel to begin with. Then they usually start up whatever business it is they want to work in that brings them the most happiness. That makes them fall into the category of people who, once their business is running, can make decisions which have terrific effects. Money has bought them the opportunity to skip climbing the ladder.

4) I'm not confusing anything.

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 05:48 PM
Isn't that socialism? :huh:
Denise...they pay everyone who isnt managers the same hourly rate...unless they are on probabtion.

The managers get paid the same on a salary

The senior Managers get paid on a salary

Dont all the nurses at the same level of qualification in your hospital get paid the same wage (or hourly ammount) ????

Socialism, would be that everyone in the entire organisation, managers, senior managers, collegues, all got paid exactly the same...not the same ammount per hour...but the same amount regardless of hours worked. A universal non-time based salery.

Honnestly, you guys have no real idea what Communism even is. You guys think Barack Obama is a communist :rolleyes: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 05:52 PM
They probaly don't value their education because it's free.

Well, unless you start getting rich. Then you have to pay it back.
You have to pay to send your children to school :huh:

In England its illegal to pull a child out of school :unsure-1: Home tuition as far as I'm aware simply doesnt happen in this country.

...and the Degrees are not free...as soon as you earn a reasonable wage according to the government, which is MORE then what i'm being paid...you have to pay it all back plus interest. Course if you never make a reasonable wage (the Government have set it quite low so that they can be sure most people will get a high enough wage to start paying it back) you never have to pay it back...because they dont deem you ABLE to pay it back.

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 05:58 PM
I am being serious and trying to help. Take a second job. It doesn't have to be glamorous. Deliver pizzas for 10 hours per week. If you can clear an extra $100 in pay and tips per week and do it for two years, you will have an extra $10,000. You can use that to start up a small business. Alternatively, put the $10,000 in the stock market (no I am not crazy, one good thing about the bad economy is that some good stocks are currently dirt cheap) and hold it there for retirement. If you are in your late 20s and retire in your late 60s, that relatively small amount of money, assuming a reasonable, but not spectacular, growth rate, will have grown, thanks to the magic of compounding, to $500,000 (of course who knows how much that will buy in 40 years . . . and likely your government will have a 95% capital gains tax by that time; however, you get my meaning)
I dont think you realize just how bad the reccession is in England. We are the worst hit of any western Country, if you believe the dailymail (which I know you enjoy :ninja: :laugh: )

When Maggie closed the mines, unemployment was at THREE MILLION PEOPLE...its heading that way again. The highest it has been in fifteen years!

You dont seem to understand...GETTING a job is becoming VERY difficult...even a secondary job. Thats precisly why I havent been looking for nearly a whole callendar year now. There is no point. Its not worth the risk to look for another job when businesses are STILL collapsing! ...and the time and effort involved to find even a small part time job is not worth it, in comparisson to the amount of time i'd keep it down before leaving completely. The recession will probably start to wear off this fall. Then I shall look to leave completely.

Also....hate to say this...but some people are better off then me ON BENEFITS!!! :laugh: (they have no job, now, because they are provided for better then some WITH a job...why bother working AT ALL?)

Play The Man
07-16-2009, 06:29 PM
You have to pay to send your children to school :huh:

In England its illegal to pull a child out of school :unsure-1: Home tuition as far as I'm aware simply doesnt happen in this country.

...and the Degrees are not free...as soon as you earn a reasonable wage according to the government, which is MORE then what i'm being paid...you have to pay it all back plus interest. Course if you never make a reasonable wage (the Government have set it quite low so that they can be sure most people will get a high enough wage to start paying it back) you never have to pay it back...because they dont deem you ABLE to pay it back.

Are you saying that "homeschooling" is illegal in England?

If you don't mind me asking, during your loan forbearance, is your loan compounding interest or do they put a "freeze" on the account, as far as further interest compounding on the loan principal?

Neezar
07-16-2009, 07:04 PM
1) No, actually, this is the practicalities of working some ideal that relies on a sense of moral aptitude...in an age where the vast moajority of people dont have any. You know that. You just argue for the sake of arguing with me :rolleyes:


No, I don't know that. I happen to disagree. I believe that everyone has some morals, to a degree. Whether they choose to call them morals or not.





2) Denise...most of the people in high management live for their jobs. Those who are incontrol of the "making money" bit, are not those people who are regular workers. I'm not talking about the position of a single Nurse...I'm talking about those who probably OWN the Hospital.

Those are the people who make decisions that influence thousands of people. In the world of banking, a group of directors, multi-millionaires verify a new procedure...a few years later almost everyone in the entire western world has seen the effects of a verra poor decision indeed. Some Director in ASDA decides without visiting the store to dump a particular supplier...and all the customers go up in arms because they cant buy whatever product it is that we dont sell anymore.

Its the decision making people that are leading capitalism. The rest of us do what we are told under them. Our singular effort wont change anything...but a single decision THEY make can have huge ramifications.


You said almost EVERYONE is only interested in making more money at any costs, including demoralization. NOW you want to change it to a certain people. Okay. But you are STILL wrong. A majority of the class of people you mention are NOT sitting around making demoralizing decisions to make more money that will be to the detriment of others. Does it happen? Absolutely. You can make decisions to make money without harming others. You can also make moral decisions that are harmful to others. You can't exactly say that any decision that hurts people is just to make more money. And you can't say that all decisions to make more money will automatically be immoral or will be harmful to others.

You keep changing directions.



3) Usually they travel to begin with. Then they usually start up whatever business it is they want to work in that brings them the most happiness. That makes them fall into the category of people who, once their business is running, can make decisions which have terrific effects. Money has bought them the opportunity to skip climbing the ladder.



So what? You said they DONT work at all. I said they do. The type of job wasn't being discussed. :laugh:





4) I'm not confusing anything.


While you may not be confused, you are confusing the subjects at hand, IMO. You know such generalizations just aren't true. However, you do it purposefully to try to make a better argument for your case. I think sometimes it works and sometimes....it just doesn't.

Neezar
07-16-2009, 07:08 PM
Denise...they pay everyone who isnt managers the same hourly rate...unless they are on probabtion.

The managers get paid the same on a salary

The senior Managers get paid on a salary

Dont all the nurses at the same level of qualification in your hospital get paid the same wage (or hourly ammount) ????

NO.

Socialism, would be that everyone in the entire organisation, managers, senior managers, collegues, all got paid exactly the same...not the same ammount per hour...but the same amount regardless of hours worked. A universal non-time based salery.

Honnestly, you guys have no real idea what Communism even is. You guys think Barack Obama is a communist :rolleyes: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Okay, if that is correct then I didn't have any idea! I thought in socialism that you could have some professions making more than others within an institution. I thought you had some outside force (the gov't, for instance) deciding just what that pay would be for each one but I didn't know they were all equal.

So, does each organization also have to have equal pay to other similiar organizations as well?

:rolleyes::laugh:

Neezar
07-16-2009, 07:13 PM
You dont seem to understand...GETTING a job is becoming VERY difficult...even a secondary job. Thats precisly why I havent been looking for nearly a whole callendar year now. There is no point. Its not worth the risk to look for another job when businesses are STILL collapsing! ...and the time and effort involved to find even a small part time job is not worth it, in comparisson to the amount of time i'd keep it down before leaving completely. The recession will probably start to wear off this fall. Then I shall look to leave completely.

Also....hate to say this...but some people are better off then me ON BENEFITS!!! :laugh: (they have no job, now, because they are provided for better then some WITH a job...why bother working AT ALL?)



Profound.

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 08:07 PM
1) Are you saying that "homeschooling" is illegal in England?

2) If you don't mind me asking, during your loan forbearance, is your loan compounding interest or do they put a "freeze" on the account, as far as further interest compounding on the loan principal?

1) I dont think it would be illegal if you were able to proove you were doing it to the Government. But as far as I know its not covered by the Local Education Authority...and your Child...well how are they going to get the basic qualifications that schools offer?

I dont think you can take GSCEs outside of an Exam Centre within a school or college, which would involve enrollment. The School has to pay for the exams, thats why the enrollment I think.

Its simply not done in England. I have never even heard of homeschooling in this country...and I HAVE heard of parents in court for not making sure their children are in school, and being lumbered with fines and the threat, in one case, of prison.

The main problem with homeschooling is, all those teenaged Mothers who do nothing but live off benefits, probably drug users also, who let their children grow up in central city gangs, who wouldnt care if their child played truent (which is an unauthoized absence) would simply say "we're homeschooling" and get away with it...before you know it...the schools would be empty. If the Government then said they wanted to monitor homeschooling...well not even England would tollerate that kinda invasion of privacy

So technically, its not illegal...but in practicality it vertually never happens :)

2) I believe that they do put interest on after a certain number of years. I could be wrong...i've really paid absolutely no notice to it. I actually wouldnt have a problem in paying it back when I have a better wage...it wouldnt be very much per month, spread out over the eons I imagine.

BTW...if you dont pay it all back by retirement it is written of, similarly, if you die, its a debt that dies with you. People are still very angry about it. See when less people went to university the Government used to give GRANTS rather then LOANS :laugh:

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 08:10 PM
Profound.
whats profound, Denise, is how I'm facing the difficulty of a recession, thanks to some of your countries citizens.

THATS profound. :wink:

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 08:19 PM
Okay, if that is correct then I didn't have any idea! I thought in socialism that you could have some professions making more than others within an institution. I thought you had some outside force (the gov't, for instance) deciding just what that pay would be for each one but I didn't know they were all equal.

So, does each organization also have to have equal pay to other similiar organizations as well?

:rolleyes::laugh:
In true communism, yes.

True communism is EVERYONE getting EQUAL, not matter what you do, who you do it for, or how long you do it.

In England, Companies decide on whats called a "band" A "band" is an amount of money, or a wage. The ammount of money is called a Salery. Its a fixed yearly amount, not dependant on the time you spend working. A wage is a fixed amount based on a period of time...but incidently, they also say what hours you can work :ninja:

Everyone on shop floor who is a collegue gets paid the same wage as me. Some get more then me, most get less, because of the ammount of hours they work.

There are a couple of exceptions

All Managers are on fixed salleries, and depending on your level of management, that will say what the ammount is. All managers will get the same ammount within their band. So the Produce manager, earns the same as the Bakery manager (excluding the possibility of bank holiday extras, bonus based on performance, expenditure accounts) The General Store manager gets more then either of the other two managers...but he will get the same as the manager from the next store...unless in London, where he will qualify for London Weighting.

That is the same across the board Denise, across the whole of England :)

I am shocked that they wouldnt pay all the nurses the same amount. Do they not do the same function?? How come some Nurses are then more favoured then others?? Or does it advance with how long you've been with the company?? Must make work place politics a nightmare...your boss doesnt like you, can he cut your pay???? :unsure-1:

Play The Man
07-16-2009, 10:22 PM
1) I dont think it would be illegal if you were able to proove you were doing it to the Government. But as far as I know its not covered by the Local Education Authority...and your Child...well how are they going to get the basic qualifications that schools offer?

I dont think you can take GSCEs outside of an Exam Centre within a school or college, which would involve enrollment. The School has to pay for the exams, thats why the enrollment I think.

Its simply not done in England. I have never even heard of homeschooling in this country...and I HAVE heard of parents in court for not making sure their children are in school, and being lumbered with fines and the threat, in one case, of prison.

The main problem with homeschooling is, all those teenaged Mothers who do nothing but live off benefits, probably drug users also, who let their children grow up in central city gangs, who wouldnt care if their child played truent (which is an unauthoized absence) would simply say "we're homeschooling" and get away with it...before you know it...the schools would be empty. If the Government then said they wanted to monitor homeschooling...well not even England would tollerate that kinda invasion of privacy

So technically, its not illegal...but in practicality it vertually never happens :)

2) I believe that they do put interest on after a certain number of years. I could be wrong...i've really paid absolutely no notice to it. I actually wouldnt have a problem in paying it back when I have a better wage...it wouldnt be very much per month, spread out over the eons I imagine.

BTW...if you dont pay it all back by retirement it is written of, similarly, if you die, its a debt that dies with you. People are still very angry about it. See when less people went to university the Government used to give GRANTS rather then LOANS :laugh:

There is a fairly large, and growing, home-school movement in the U.S. In the U.S., it is usually, but not always religiously-based. Studies have shown that home-schooled children score higher on standardized tests than children from public schools. The reason I asked is because I have a relative who home-schools his children. He is a high-ranking military officer and his wife home-schools the kids. They are all gifted and have placed in top spots in statewide academic competitions. In addition, they are about the most mature, polite children that you ever will meet. They are athletic and have many friends with the other military kids. I hope I do half as well with my kids.

Neezar
07-16-2009, 10:25 PM
whats profound, Denise, is how I'm facing the difficulty of a recession, thanks to some of your countries citizens.

THATS profound. :wink:

How does pointing a finger of blame change your situation? Do something about it. Oh wait....it is too difficult and too risky. :rolleyes:

Cry me a river.

Neezar
07-16-2009, 10:35 PM
In true communism, yes.

True communism is EVERYONE getting EQUAL, not matter what you do, who you do it for, or how long you do it.



Why are you switching from socialism to communism?


Nevermind. I'm getting dizzy. :laugh:

NateR
07-16-2009, 10:36 PM
How does pointing a finger of blame change your situation? Do something about it. Oh wait....it is too difficult and too risky. :rolleyes:

Cry me a river.

Don't blame Dave, he's British. His socialist government has stripped him of any independent thought or desire to be in control of his own life. So when things don't go his way, all he can do is sit around on his butt and whine about how it's everyone else's fault but his own.

If you treat people like children, then they will act like children. What we are seeing with Dave is a full grown British man acting very much like a child, thanks to his government.

But, of course, it's all America's fault.:rolleyes:

Neezar
07-17-2009, 03:06 AM
Also....hate to say this...but some people are better off then me ON BENEFITS!!! :laugh: (they have no job, now, because they are provided for better then some WITH a job...why bother working AT ALL?)

That is true here, too. You get rewarded for laziness and lack of ambition. :angry:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
07-17-2009, 08:49 AM
What you call True communism does not exist and would not work very well either! As for the pay in America. Where I work we have what we call a pay scale! ICS which is my job code is a level three. Now there are a couple guys on the same pay scale that make more than me but that's because they have been their longer. One guy has been their 9 years I think he said! If you meet expectations on your annual eval you get a raise! Now the ICS lead is alot higher pay scale than I am so that's a dollar more on the hour than my scale is. Most sales floor positions are a level 2 which makes less than me. But then again most sales floor positions ain't as demanding as what I do. My job is considered physically demanding and requires some training. Used to be they would pay extra if you got licenced on the power equipment but they stopped doing that. I suspect to many folks abused it. I heard that some folks that were buddies with the trainer would get licenced when they really weren't properly trained and never run the Equipment. By the way the Government does not yet tell Companies in America what job pays what! We do have a minamun wage whitch is the Goverment saying this is the least you can pay any employee but most places pay more. One of the things we don't want in America is the Government decideing who makes 8 an hour and who makes ten an hour! Mostly the way it works is the company tell's you how much they pay for a job and you take it or leave it.

Play The Man
07-18-2009, 08:09 PM
Yes...but who wants to be a pig :blink: :huh: :laugh:

"Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal."

-- Winston Churchill

[Churchill's endearment for his wife, Clementine, was "pussy-cat". And what did Clementine call him, of all things, but "pig." And sometimes each would call out to the other, respectively, "Meow, meow" or "oink,oink."
Once at 10 Downing Street during the war, both were on the floor on their hands and knees sounding out "Oink, oink" and "Meow, meow" when the Archbishop of Canterbury walked in. He must have thought his prime minister had gone absolutely bonkers!]