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warriorlion
07-05-2009, 09:14 PM
I guess I am going to regret doing this here, but its something I have been pondering on. I have always believed that when something challenges your view on things the best thing you can do it examine the scripture to see why you believe what you do and if it is scripturally sound.

Now here's the question, and its an age old one that has many men far greater in the Lord than I am on different sides of the debate.
People such as Martin Luther, John Calvin on one side and Charles Finney, John Wesley on the opposite.

So since I have been looking at this myself I thought I would pose the question on here.

Predestination - what do you believe???

Now I dont want an arguement, I was looking for a debate that has scripture back up on your point of view.

Keep it clean and pleasant guys

Play The Man
07-05-2009, 10:38 PM
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:10-24)

One must always be careful about just listing scripture passages. They must be considered in their context and more clear passages should illuminate less clear passages. Scripture must be considered a unified whole - it does not contradict itself.

I fall on the Lutheran/Calvinist side. I am not educated in theology or biblical languages so I don't feel qualified to engage in an adequate defense of a particular position. Here is a link to a radio show called "The White Horse Inn". It is hosted by a Reformed seminary professor, a Lutheran college professor, a Reformed pastor and a Baptist pastor. Listening to this show brought me from atheism to Christianity - yes, they are that good! If you are studying theological issues, this is an excellent resource. They are incredible defenders of the Reformation position.

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp

This is a link to the White Horse Inn discussing the theology of Charles Finney:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYxIYQO8Xs

Play The Man
07-05-2009, 11:25 PM
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 12:43 AM
I think it is a bit of both.

You cant have full free will and full predestination...although GOD can know everything without influencing it.

It is obvious that he does pre-ordain somethings, some circumstances...but its also true that we have freewill like no other created beings

I think GOD has a plan for all, I think they can over-rule him because he asks for our compliance rather then forces his will upon us. For Christians, once under his command, it is best to ASK about His will...so that you may follow what he has planned for you.

Does that make sense?

Play The Man
07-06-2009, 12:57 AM
I think it is a bit of both.

Must it be the via media for every issue?:laugh:

Perhaps, consult the works of J.I. Packer, an Anglican, for illumination on this issue.

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 01:39 AM
Must it be the via media for every issue?:laugh:

Perhaps, consult the works of J.I. Packer, an Anglican, for illumination on this issue.
Well...the True answer is...its both. Somehow GOD can ordain, and we can have free will...but that is a paradox beyond our comprehension as we see them at opposite points of the same spectrum.

I simply live my life according to the following idiom

"Pray as though everything depended on Him, Live as though everything Depended on You"

Once you dedicate yourself to GOD, once you become part of the Forces of Light, you must trust that your Soverign knows best. GOD does not work like a Republic, nor does he work like Democrasy.

GOD is a King. He works and acts like a Monarch. When one totally devotes ones life to the Will of the King, that is an ACT OF FREE WILL, when one then follows ones Battle Plan...One is being moved by The Spirit of GOD...One does what one is told, goes where one is instructed to go, GOD himself speaks through them. GOD is thus incontrol, ergo, Predestination. Its about Ballence. From Our side it appears all freewill...from His side, You either Serve Him...or you face the consiquences....There is no Declaration of Independance against King Jesus....and Incidently, there is no Freedom without being under His Command.

:)

I'm watching Churchills Funeral on Youtube at present...LOL (did you know the first Hymn was the American Battle Hymn of the Republic? did you know Saint Pauls gave a Memorial Service to President JFK?? No...niether did I...and I worked there for two years hahahaha...did you know they only showed his introit...the rest of the videos were all the verrrrrra long walk from WH all the way to SPC? did you know he was Order of the Garter?!? Funny...because the public couldnt wait to get him out of office when the war ended, and he had a dire run as PM during the 1950s that everyone forgets...I...am not sure that he deserved to be a Member of Garter...its really reserved for Royalty...

Chris F
07-06-2009, 03:29 AM
The real question is who do you believe is sovereign Man or God. If it is God then one must believe he has predestined your life. This is why he told Job I know the very minute you will pass and come to me. God is in control and every aspect of your life is predestined by His sovereign will. I am not Calvinist I am AOG and after years of wrestling with this I came to this conclusion from years of personal study and devotion. hope this help and that's my 2 cents on this issue.

AS far as salvation. Well I believe God knows who will and will not accept His grace. But I do not believe for a second he randomly selected some to to go to heaven and some to hell. that is not supported anywhere in scripture.

Chuck
07-06-2009, 04:45 AM
The real question is who do you believe is sovereign Man or God. If it is God then one must believe he has predestined your life. This is why he told Job I know the very minute you will pass and come to me. God is in control and every aspect of your life is predestined by His sovereign will. I am not Calvinist I am AOG and after years of wrestling with this I came to this conclusion from years of personal study and devotion. hope this help and that's my 2 cents on this issue.

AS far as salvation. Well I believe God knows who will and will not accept His grace. But I do not believe for a second he randomly selected some to to go to heaven and some to hell. that is not supported anywhere in scripture.

So where does free will fit in to your belief?? :huh:

Play The Man
07-06-2009, 04:50 AM
Well...the True answer is...its both. Somehow GOD can ordain, and we can have free will...but that is a paradox beyond our comprehension as we see them at opposite points of the same spectrum.

I simply live my life according to the following idiom

"Pray as though everything depended on Him, Live as though everything Depended on You"

Once you dedicate yourself to GOD, once you become part of the Forces of Light, you must trust that your Soverign knows best. GOD does not work like a Republic, nor does he work like Democrasy.

GOD is a King. He works and acts like a Monarch. When one totally devotes ones life to the Will of the King, that is an ACT OF FREE WILL, when one then follows ones Battle Plan...One is being moved by The Spirit of GOD...One does what one is told, goes where one is instructed to go, GOD himself speaks through them. GOD is thus incontrol, ergo, Predestination. Its about Ballence. From Our side it appears all freewill...from His side, You either Serve Him...or you face the consiquences....There is no Declaration of Independance against King Jesus....and Incidently, there is no Freedom without being under His Command.

:)

I'm watching Churchills Funeral on Youtube at present...LOL (did you know the first Hymn was the American Battle Hymn of the Republic? did you know Saint Pauls gave a Memorial Service to President JFK?? No...niether did I...and I worked there for two years hahahaha...did you know they only showed his introit...the rest of the videos were all the verrrrrra long walk from WH all the way to SPC? did you know he was Order of the Garter?!? Funny...because the public couldnt wait to get him out of office when the war ended, and he had a dire run as PM during the 1950s that everyone forgets...I...am not sure that he deserved to be a Member of Garter...its really reserved for Royalty...

Churchill's mother's family was American. Perhaps that is the reason for the "Battle Hymn"?

I am currently reading a book called The Prayer of The Lord by R.C. Sproul and I came to a certain paragraph and thought of you. Sproul is breaking down the Lord's prayer into its constituitive parts and the quote occurs in the part about "Thy Kingdom Come". Here is the paragraph:

"When my friend John Guest, who was a noted evangelist in England, first came to the United States in the late 1960's, his first exposure to American culture was in the city of Philadelphia. During his first couple of days there, his hosts escorted him around the city to attractions such as Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell, and they told him stories of the American Revolution to introduce him to the history of this new world he was embracing as his home. John was enjoying all of this until they went to Germantown, just outside Philadelphia, and visited an antiques store that specialized in Americana. Among the items in this shop were placards and signs that displayed some of the battle cries and slogans of the Revolutionary era, such as "No Taxation without Representation" and "Don't Tread on Me." But the placard that drew his keenest attention was one that announced with bold letters, "We Serve No Sovereign Here." John told me later: "That sign stopped me in my tracks. I had left my native land and come across the Atlantic Ocean in response to a call, a vocation to be a minister of the gospel, to proclaim the kingdom of God. But on seeing this sign, I was filled with fear and consternation. I thought, "How can I possibly preach the kingdom of God to people who have a profound aversion to sovereignty?"

Maglorius
07-06-2009, 06:53 AM
This is not just a coincidence that this is coming up right now, because I have been doing a lot of reading and research on this view of theology. I have been really craving other peoples thoughts on this topic. All the Christians I know are all freewill and if you even mention predestination or try to talk about it, the gloves come off pretty fast.:punch: I used to be a staunch freewill, I choose God type, but in the last year I have submitted to the Predestination/Calvinism. I have been listening to alot of the Reform theology guys like John Piper, DA Carson, RC Sproul, Mark Driscoll, and Matt Chandler and they all have really turned my head around.

There is so much that can be said here and all I want to do is point out a book I just finished that has me completely on the predestination side. The book is called "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul. It is an amazing read and he is such a gifted teacher on this subject. He does have one chapter that talks about the freewill of man and how predestination doesn't hinder it. It's awesome. Here's a quote:

"God's grace is resistible in the sense that we can and do resist it. It is irresistible in the sense that it achieves its purpose. It brings about Gods desired effect. Thus I prefer the term effectual grace. We are speaking of the grace of regeneration. We remember that in regeneration God creates in us a desire for himself. But when we have that desire planted in us, we will continue to function as we always have functioned, making our choices according to the strongest motivation at the moment. If God gives us a desire for Christ we will act according to that desire. We will most certainly choose the object of that desire; we will choose Christ. When God makes us spiritually alive we become spiritually alive. It is not merely the possibility of becoming spiritually alive that God creates. He creates spiritual life within us. When he calls something into being, it comes into being."

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 10:46 AM
A)The real question is who do you believe is sovereign Man or God. If it is God then one must believe he has predestined your life. This is why he told Job I know the very minute you will pass and come to me. God is in control and every aspect of your life is predestined by His sovereign will. I am not Calvinist I am AOG and after years of wrestling with this I came to this conclusion from years of personal study and devotion. hope this help and that's my 2 cents on this issue.

B) AS far as salvation. Well I believe God knows who will and will not accept His grace. But I do not believe for a second he randomly selected some to to go to heaven and some to hell. that is not supported anywhere in scripture.

You cant do that. If you believe part A you MUST logically believe part B...therefore you cant escape that a total pre-destinational god sends more people to Hell then to Heaven...because I reject that absolutely and entirely...I can only say that the two must not be a complete paradox to GOD to use at the same time.

I think, personally he gives more free will then people dare think about. Pre-destination is a nice safety net for Christians to believe they can do no wrong and everything will work out in the end...but we are at war...GOD uses people in His Will...neglect to follow it...and YOU might condemn others to Hell by you lack of virtue in following what he might have pre-ordained.

GOD differs from Evil in one major way when it comes to Human Interaction. Evil takes and uses...The Spirit of GOD will not posess without invitation

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 10:59 AM
Churchill's mother's family was American. Perhaps that is the reason for the "Battle Hymn"?

I am currently reading a book called The Prayer of The Lord by R.C. Sproul and I came to a certain paragraph and thought of you. Sproul is breaking down the Lord's prayer into its constituitive parts and the quote occurs in the part about "Thy Kingdom Come". Here is the paragraph:

"When my friend John Guest, who was a noted evangelist in England, first came to the United States in the late 1960's, his first exposure to American culture was in the city of Philadelphia. During his first couple of days there, his hosts escorted him around the city to attractions such as Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell, and they told him stories of the American Revolution to introduce him to the history of this new world he was embracing as his home. John was enjoying all of this until they went to Germantown, just outside Philadelphia, and visited an antiques store that specialized in Americana. Among the items in this shop were placards and signs that displayed some of the battle cries and slogans of the Revolutionary era, such as "No Taxation without Representation" and "Don't Tread on Me." But the placard that drew his keenest attention was one that announced with bold letters, "We Serve No Sovereign Here." John told me later: "That sign stopped me in my tracks. I had left my native land and come across the Atlantic Ocean in response to a call, a vocation to be a minister of the gospel, to proclaim the kingdom of God. But on seeing this sign, I was filled with fear and consternation. I thought, "How can I possibly preach the kingdom of God to people who have a profound aversion to sovereignty?"
I didnt want to put it that bluntly...but Yes. I kinda smiled when thinking that as the Americans wrote the Declaration, in order to rid themselves of Monarchy that they called "Tyrant"...they ended with an Appeal directly to someone whose dictatorial. A Judge is Dictatorial in the same way Any Monarch is.

Trans: "Being held accountable to the Supreme King"
Trans: "putting exclusive faith into the Supreme King"

...and yet the whole document is about the abolishtion of Monarchy, because it is Dictatorial, because it is a different style of Government, because it supercedes them, because they dont have representation.

There is at the very least a certain amount of Dramatic Irony involved, when considering this the Foundation of the Last Vestege of the Most High, Most Might, and Most Excellent, Rex Caelestis :mellow:

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

warriorlion
07-06-2009, 01:03 PM
I have just started reading that RC sproul book, which is kind of why I asked the question here

However

just to throw in a few spanners, people have been quoting the bible (as requested) to show election and predestination in the bible.

How do people view this in light of John 3:16
For God so love the WORLD tht he gave His one and only begotten Son, that whomever shall believe in Him shall not die but have everlasting life

If Jesus' sacrifice was for the world, and whomsoever believes is saved, how does this show predestination.

The next aspect is Jesus issuing the great commission
matthew 28:16-20

Predestination states that God has chosen those taht will be saved, if thats the case then why command us to go into the world and preach the gospel making disciples of all men???

I will be back later to pose questions from the other side of the debae too, I am sitting on the fence on this issue right now while I examine it.

Rev
07-06-2009, 01:53 PM
There are STRONG points for both sides but I have to side against total predestination because of free will. Could God force his perfect will on us all and whatever he says goes? Yes. But he doesnt. How can I believe that, you ask. For a few reasons, 1. Do you see anywhere in the gospels that Jesus tells someone, "I'm sorry, but this salvation is not for you"? no! John 3:16 said "whosoever" 2. 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 3. I just cant believe that God has planned and makes this world happen the way it does, abortion, murder, rape, cancer, ect. He created us to love him, but by our choice. If he wanted to program something that had to love him he could have but he didnt.

That being said, I am begging everyone not too get heated in this because I have seen some good friends quit speaking over this very subject, and while I feel that it is a good subject to discuss, it is not a bridge I am willing to die for.

Neezar
07-06-2009, 02:51 PM
There is so much that can be said here and all I want to do is point out a book I just finished that has me completely on the predestination side. The book is called "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul. It is an amazing read and he is such a gifted teacher on this subject. He does have one chapter that talks about the freewill of man and how predestination doesn't hinder it. It's awesome. Here's a quote:

"God's grace is resistible in the sense that we can and do resist it. It is irresistible in the sense that it achieves its purpose. It brings about Gods desired effect. Thus I prefer the term effectual grace. We are speaking of the grace of regeneration. We remember that in regeneration God creates in us a desire for himself. But when we have that desire planted in us, we will continue to function as we always have functioned, making our choices according to the strongest motivation at the moment. If God gives us a desire for Christ we will act according to that desire. We will most certainly choose the object of that desire; we will choose Christ. When God makes us spiritually alive we become spiritually alive. It is not merely the possibility of becoming spiritually alive that God creates. He creates spiritual life within us. When he calls something into being, it comes into being."


Love this! :)


I think for the most part it is free will. I think there are some cases/people/things that God predestines, some good and some bad.

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 03:18 PM
Love this! :)


I think for the most part it is free will. I think there are some cases/people/things that God predestines, some good and some bad.
:w00t: WE AGGREE!!!!! :w00t:

VCURamFan
07-06-2009, 04:10 PM
There are STRONG points for both sides but I have to side against total predestination because of free will. Could God force his perfect will on us all and whatever he says goes? Yes. But he doesnt. How can I believe that, you ask. For a few reasons, 1. Do you see anywhere in the gospels that Jesus tells someone, "I'm sorry, but this salvation is not for you"? no! John 3:16 said "whosoever" 2. 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 3. I just cant believe that God has planned and makes this world happen the way it does, abortion, murder, rape, cancer, ect. He created us to love him, but by our choice. If he wanted to program something that had to love him he could have but he didnt.I think this is a slightly flawed view of what "pre-destination" means. It doesn't mean that our whole lives are pre-programmed or utterly scripted. Pre-destination deals only with our salvation, not with the daily ins-and-outs of our lives. While this might be a rudimentary or flawed understanding, here is how I attempt to comprehend the issue:

As John 3:16 states, Christ died for all, His righteousness is sufficient to cover all and God forever loves all. Unfortunately, not all will be saved. For reasons known only to Himself, God chose only certain elect few to be saved by His grace. As for free will, that is how we live our lives. We are not automatons following a track laid out for us millenia in advance, but rather individuals choosing to live our lives as we see fit. God pre-ordained one of our decisions for us, whether we would be saved or not, but the rest is on us.

Again, I'm sure there are some leaks in this understanding as I have not spent as much time exploring it as I should, but this is my (current) view.
That being said, I am begging everyone not too get heated in this because I have seen some good friends quit speaking over this very subject, and while I feel that it is a good subject to discuss, it is not a bridge I am willing to die for.Amen. There are a lot of issues out there (baptism, pre-destination, end times, etc.) that are important and are worth discussing, but are not salvation-issues. By this I mean that if I am wrong about infant baptism, pre-destination or amillenialism, I will not burn in Hell for my mistake. So long as one holds to the basics of the Gospel (namely God created the world; man sinned & is utterly cut off from God; Christ came as the God-man & lived a sinless life, dying on the cross to bear the curse on our behalf; Christ rose again from the dead 3 days later & ascended to sit at God's right hand), then I am proud to call you a brother or sister in Christ. I'm glad that we're able to have these discussions about important, controversial topics without losing site of the fact that we all trust the same Savior.

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 05:02 PM
I think this is a slightly flawed view of what "pre-destination" means. It doesn't mean that our whole lives are pre-programmed or utterly scripted. Pre-destination deals only with our salvation, not with the daily ins-and-outs of our lives. While this might be a rudimentary or flawed understanding, here is how I attempt to comprehend the issue:

As John 3:16 states, Christ died for all, His righteousness is sufficient to cover all and God forever loves all. Unfortunately, not all will be saved. For reasons known only to Himself, God chose only certain elect few to be saved by His grace. As for free will, that is how we live our lives. We are not automatons following a track laid out for us millenia in advance, but rather individuals choosing to live our lives as we see fit. God pre-ordained one of our decisions for us, whether we would be saved or not, but the rest is on us.

Again, I'm sure there are some leaks in this understanding as I have not spent as much time exploring it as I should, but this is my (current) view.
Amen. There are a lot of issues out there (baptism, pre-destination, end times, etc.) that are important and are worth discussing, but are not salvation-issues. By this I mean that if I am wrong about infant baptism, pre-destination or amillenialism, I will not burn in Hell for my mistake. So long as one holds to the basics of the Gospel (namely God created the world; man sinned & is utterly cut off from God; Christ came as the God-man & lived a sinless life, dying on the cross to bear the curse on our behalf; Christ rose again from the dead 3 days later & ascended to sit at God's right hand), then I am proud to call you a brother or sister in Christ. I'm glad that we're able to have these discussions about important, controversial topics without losing site of the fact that we all trust the same Savior.
Absolutely NOT.

If that were the case, the Christ would only have died for the Ellect.

Christ died for Everyone...and if ANYONE ends up in Hell they ONLY have themselves to Blame. What POSSIBLE reason would GOD have to ordain half his Creation to Hell? That isnt even Logical by Human Standards

If that were true...then would it not be possible, for an UNELLECTED person, out of FREE WILL to chose Christ...in which case, presumably, being UNELLECT Christs Blood would NOT be sufficient for them. YOU are saying Christs Blood is only Sufficient for Those who He has Chosen.

That is NOT what Scripture Says. You Cant believe what you said, AND say the John 3.16 means what you said it did in the above. Those are Irreconcilable Differences. Either he died for ALL, or He died for the Ellect. You cant have it both ways Ben.

Infact...strikes me that it looks rather like the argument could go completely the other way...that GOD pre-ordains almost every detail EXCEPT for where Free Will matters most...the only reason we have Free Will is to be able to either accept him or Reject him. Your theology IMHO is just plain wrong :mellow: Will you Burn in Hell for being wrong? Of Course not...but bear in mind that you might be unneedfully distressing others by spreading incorrect information on the Nature of GOD...and...in essence contradicting the most important point in the whole Bible outside of who Christ Was.

Rev
07-06-2009, 05:26 PM
To say that pre-destination is only a salvation issue is a little odd to me because it sounds like God greated the world, set things in motion and said, "whatever happens happens and only these few can come to heaven." It is just hard for me to accept that. But It sounds like you have put some good thought into your argument so, props to you.

I feel like salvation is the ultimate "choice" or "descision" he gave us. If not then the great commission is kind of pointless. If the "ellect" are pre-determined by God and no others are welcome, then what are we waisting our time reaching out to lost people for. If they are ellect then they will be fine. If not we cant help them anyway.

This issue will not be solved, because we will never fully understand God. For us to think we do understand him is to try and fit him into a box, and I dare say that we dont have a big enough box. lol

Play The Man
07-06-2009, 07:14 PM
I have just started reading that RC sproul book, which is kind of why I asked the question here

However

just to throw in a few spanners, people have been quoting the bible (as requested) to show election and predestination in the bible.

How do people view this in light of John 3:16
For God so love the WORLD tht he gave His one and only begotten Son, that whomever shall believe in Him shall not die but have everlasting life

If Jesus' sacrifice was for the world, and whomsoever believes is saved, how does this show predestination.

The next aspect is Jesus issuing the great commission
matthew 28:16-20

Predestination states that God has chosen those taht will be saved, if thats the case then why command us to go into the world and preach the gospel making disciples of all men???

I will be back later to pose questions from the other side of the debae too, I am sitting on the fence on this issue right now while I examine it.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8

The "whosoever" in John 3:16 refers to the elect ("those whom he predestined"). Look at the unbroken chain listed in verse 30. God knows the elect ("those whom he predestined"); we don't. The elect ("those whom he predestined") don't have signs on their foreheads. We are to preach the gospel to everyone. The Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the gospel ("he also called"), by God's grace ("he foreknew", "he predestined", "he called", "he justified", "he glorified"), gives the elect saving faith or belief ("those whom he called he also justified").

17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. John 17 (I put the bold on the words)


I am not a theologian (God forgive me if I am in error) but it seems like "world" has different meanings depending on the context. See verse 9 above and compare to John 3:16.

Play The Man
07-06-2009, 07:37 PM
Absolutely NOT.

If that were the case, the Christ would only have died for the Ellect.

Christ died for Everyone...and if ANYONE ends up in Hell they ONLY have themselves to Blame. What POSSIBLE reason would GOD have to ordain half his Creation to Hell? That isnt even Logical by Human Standards

If that were true...then would it not be possible, for an UNELLECTED person, out of FREE WILL to chose Christ...in which case, presumably, being UNELLECT Christs Blood would NOT be sufficient for them. YOU are saying Christs Blood is only Sufficient for Those who He has Chosen.

That is NOT what Scripture Says. You Cant believe what you said, AND say the John 3.16 means what you said it did in the above. Those are Irreconcilable Differences. Either he died for ALL, or He died for the Ellect. You cant have it both ways Ben.

Infact...strikes me that it looks rather like the argument could go completely the other way...that GOD pre-ordains almost every detail EXCEPT for where Free Will matters most...the only reason we have Free Will is to be able to either accept him or Reject him. Your theology IMHO is just plain wrong :mellow: Will you Burn in Hell for being wrong? Of Course not...but bear in mind that you might be unneedfully distressing others by spreading incorrect information on the Nature of GOD...and...in essence contradicting the most important point in the whole Bible outside of who Christ Was.


10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Tyburn, how do you interpret the verses above? Why does Paul specifically offer the example of Jacob and Esau? Why does he offer a rhetorical question about God being unjust and then give an analogy of a potter and his clay and mention vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy?

I will heed the warning of those earlier in the thread and ramp things down. For me, I think this could become (and might have already become) more about the vanity of winning an argument and less about knowing God. My prior posts give some links to good references. I will probably not post further in this thread.:ashamed:

Maglorius
07-06-2009, 07:38 PM
I am really excited about reading this thread and thank everyone for their input.
Here's where I stand on the issue of the freewill of man. Do we have ultimate freewill or is our freewill limited? I have come to understand that our freewill is limited. Now if Romans 3:9-18 is correct and that is the condition of every human beings heart we are limited in our freewill because of our sin nature inherited from Adam. We don't seek God and in our natural desires would never choose him. Sure we make choices like pepsi/coke, pc/mac, chev/dodge, Matt Hughes/GSP, but because we are spiritually dead, we cannot possibly make a freewill choice for a living God, dead things cannot make any choice. In order for someone to make that freewill choice for Jesus, the Holy Spirit must awaken a new life in ones heart. The question that remains is what exactly is that change. Does rebirth/being reborn happen prior to accepting Jesus so we can make that choice or does the Holy Spirit only tickle the heart to give it some life that allows us to make the right choice and than we are reborn?

About John 3:16 it only says that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life. Where does that belief come from? If we look at John 3:8 I think we get that answer. Now does the Holy Spirit do this for all? I don't believe he does.

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.:unsure:
So here is a passage that talks about many and not all. What do we do with verse such as this and read and interpret it properly.

Mans choices pre fall: To sin or not to sin
Mans choices after the fall: to sin and unable not to sin
Mans choices after rebirth: to sin or not to sin
Mans choices in heaven: not to sin, unable to sin

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 07:58 PM
Tyburn, how do you interpret the verses above? Why does Paul specifically offer the example of Jacob and Esau? Why does he offer a rhetorical question about God being unjust and then give an analogy of a potter and his clay and mention vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy?

I will heed the warning of those earlier in the thread and ramp things down. For me, I think this could become (and might have already become) more about the vanity of winning an argument and less about knowing God. My prior posts give some links to good references. I will probably not post further in this thread.:ashamed:
ahh when you can give me a NEW Testament Example I will be in trouble...the thing about the Old Testament was that you had to be credited by Righteousness.

I also never said that GOD couldnt use evil for his own uses...Job is a good example of when GOD permits evil to happen...he doesnt cause it...but he doesnt stop it, nor its effects

The thing you mention about Jacob is less about choice, and more about Soverignty of GOD verses Soverignty of Man.....If Mans Soverignty had been followed then the linage would look entirely different from Abraham...there is an order to Human Soverignty and it says the oldest, the first, is the best. GOD is showing that he can intervene, as he does SEVERAL times in the linage, to disrupt that order to give His personal blessing to someone else other then the Norm. Just because GOD has the power to force his will, doesnt mean he ALWAYS does. I aggree in some circumstances I think he does, I think there are Pre-Destined things....I shall name one that involved myself

I was working in Saint Paul's Cathedral, London...I was terribly depressed at one time, when I had a day off because I only worked in paid employment part time, I would go very early in the morning, because I couldnt sleep with depression well, to a place called The University of London Union. This is in an area of London called "Bloomsbury" I was always there when the doors and pool opened, swimming and the gym was the only thing that made me feel happy. I would come out right into rush hour traffic and make my way home by either Bus or Tube. The nearest Tube Station was called Russel Square, the nearest Busses all came via a place called Tavistock Square.

Both those names should ring a bell to you. Because on July 7th 2005 those places became scenes of carnage. A bomb Detonated on a Tube stuck between Russel Square and Kings Cross...It was heading south I believe at the time. Meanwhile above ground, one of the suicide Bombers had a crisis of confidence and he momentarily abandoned his target suspected to be on the Northern Line...instead he got on a bus, and finally plucked up the nerve to blow himself up whilst going through the square. So violent was the explosion that the blood of this christian woman was splattered all over the courtyard walls. Her parents came out the same day and said they forgave the bombers.

at last moment, I went through a shift swap with someone. I was infact at the Cathedral when the Bombings happened, and I was the virger on early duty. I had to deal with then protecting the largest symbol of Christianity in Greater London...from what we didnt know...who knew if they had planes? the worst thing was, we didnt know for nearly forty moments that it was an attack...we thought it was a power failure...and the closest bomb to the Cathedral was less then 15 moments walk away...plenty of time for a bomber to have planted one bomb, and gotten to his second target.

The point is...It was obvious pre-destination that STOPPED me being involved in that Bloomsbury Bombing. I didnt know when I aggreed to the shift swap that GOD had just saved me from...well...you know :unsure-1:

So I am not saying "No" to predestination...except in the case of salvation....outside of that I think there is both free will and predesitination...and I can only see them in Hindsight. I will tell you several other pre-destined things...GOD specifically sent a friend to me in 2003. Martin started the academic year in a house...it went wrong...he by chance moved into the same hall as me at Christmas...and I NEEDED him in April. GOD caused that, we both have no doubt.

GOD also caused me to leave London...when a freak accident broke my fingers at the PRECISE time I needed to get a new job to remain...I mean...within two weeks of the final date...I didnt trip on that curb...Jesus pushed me :angry: :laugh:

CAVEMAN
07-06-2009, 09:36 PM
My mind just begins to churn when I think about the subject of predestination because I don't believe our finite minds can truly grasp it. But scripture clearly shows that Salvation is all of GOD. We as sinners do not seek GOD. Men love darkness rather than light, the bible says. And because of that love for darkness, we are not capable of loving HIM. So if we are not capable of loving HIM, he has to give us the heart to LOVE HIM.


Ephesians 2: 8,9 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

GOD gives us both the GRACE and the FAITH to BELIEVE. If we had any part in the gift of salvation, then we would be able to boast, right?

Here is an interesting article on predestination:

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-divine-sovereignty-human-responsibility-debate-part-one-

Tyburn
07-06-2009, 10:19 PM
My mind just begins to churn when I think about the subject of predestination because I don't believe our finite minds can truly grasp it. But scripture clearly shows that Salvation is all of GOD. We as sinners do not seek GOD. Men love darkness rather than light, the bible says. And because of that love for darkness, we are not capable of loving HIM. So if we are not capable of loving HIM, he has to give us the heart to LOVE HIM.


Ephesians 2: 8,9 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

GOD gives us both the GRACE and the FAITH to BELIEVE. If we had any part in the gift of salvation, then we would be able to boast, right?

Here is an interesting article on predestination:

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-divine-sovereignty-human-responsibility-debate-part-one-
All man yearns for something beyonds himself. Perhaps THAT is what is meant by the above. We are made in his image, that gives us intrinsic value...we are important simply because he created us and we have his likeness.

Boasting assumes we have power over salvation. I didnt say our Choice Saves us. GOD saves us, so long as our Choice is for him to save us. We are not choosing our Salvation...we are choosing to let GOD save us. Fundemental Difference.

I do not believe in the utter degregation...sin is like a blight...its a disease...its not actually a part of a supernatural being of which we were all created. Birds with clipped wings cant fly, tiz true...but they were designed and created for that purpose...they dont cease to be Birds because they cant fly.

Humans are made in the image of GOD, they are designed to be like unto GOD, they were designed for full intergrated Union with GOD...just because they have been infected by original sin...doesnt suddenly mean they lack the ability to aspire to their full potential.

Everyone searches for something...that longing is the Creators Call and its planted in each one of us...we may not understand it, we may try to fill it with other things...we may die as birds, unable to fly...but man was gifted with the ability to Love and to Judge...to things which are fundementally part of GOD.

Even the worst sinner is capable of turning and seeking GOD. That is the miracle. GOD invites, GOD has the power to save....but WE must choose Life.

As he spells out in the book of Deuteronomy..two paths are laid out before us, a path without him, full of self absorbtion, of all that is sinful and evil. Curses and Distruction...Even in the Old Testament GOD presents the people with a choice. Choose Him, or Choose Death...if he was pre-destinating them one to the other...he would not have asked them to choose.

The most beautful thing about True love is that it cant be forced, it is solely counting on both parties. GOD has done his bit. The rest he leaves for each one of us. Do we want to Love him or not? He doesnt want duty, he doesnt want frightened converts, he doesnt want massicres committed in His name.

You cant force someone to Love...not even GOD can force Love. He can encourage, provide for it...but he would rather we all end up in Hell...then have some robots pretending to Love him. This is why its so precious to Him...This is why it brings him the most pain. His want, is for us to Love Him...and largely...that is dependant on US and not Him. As soon as we say we Love him and mean it with our entireity, HE has the power to save us from this shyte, to pureify us, and to give us new, unclipped wings with which we may fly to him and remain forever.

Humanity is about a Divine Love Story...about a Being who will go as far as Kill a part of himself in order to save a beautiful creation that was spoilt.

:cry: its a real tear jerker to be honnest...this is GOD at his most personal, at His most raw...He longs for us in EXACTLY the same way that we have that empty hole inside that we need to fill.

Afew months ago I would have given a very different answer :ninja:

Chris F
07-07-2009, 01:20 AM
You cant do that. If you believe part A you MUST logically believe part B...therefore you cant escape that a total pre-destinational god sends more people to Hell then to Heaven...because I reject that absolutely and entirely...I can only say that the two must not be a complete paradox to GOD to use at the same time.

I think, personally he gives more free will then people dare think about. Pre-destination is a nice safety net for Christians to believe they can do no wrong and everything will work out in the end...but we are at war...GOD uses people in His Will...neglect to follow it...and YOU might condemn others to Hell by you lack of virtue in following what he might have pre-ordained.

GOD differs from Evil in one major way when it comes to Human Interaction. Evil takes and uses...The Spirit of GOD will not posess without invitation

Then the God you believe in is not a real God because he is not in control and you are!!!!

Chris F
07-07-2009, 01:21 AM
My mind just begins to churn when I think about the subject of predestination because I don't believe our finite minds can truly grasp it. But scripture clearly shows that Salvation is all of GOD. We as sinners do not seek GOD. Men love darkness rather than light, the bible says. And because of that love for darkness, we are not capable of loving HIM. So if we are not capable of loving HIM, he has to give us the heart to LOVE HIM.


Ephesians 2: 8,9 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

GOD gives us both the GRACE and the FAITH to BELIEVE. If we had any part in the gift of salvation, then we would be able to boast, right?

Here is an interesting article on predestination:

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-divine-sovereignty-human-responsibility-debate-part-one-

Great points caveman!

Chris F
07-07-2009, 01:26 AM
So where does free will fit in to your belief?? :huh:

Well Chuck I feel free will is our choice to accept or reject the gospel. But to say God does not know know who will and will not do this is highly a mystery to Him. If there where no free will we have either universalism or we'd have a very hateful God who actually creates people to send to hell. Why does scripture say Jacob I loved Esau I hated? Do you remember what Esau did? He surrendered his birth right. That was his free will. However God knew this and had a plan and the world did not end because of it.

Tyburn
07-07-2009, 12:55 PM
Then the God you believe in is not a real God because he is not in control and you are!!!!
Never did I say someone could save themselves...THAT is the control. One can choose to allow GOD to save them though.

GOD does the saving so he isultimately in control...but WE are incontrol of accepting or rejecting his free gift.

So before you dare to challenge me, perhaps you should actually READ or ask questions. You who have a known reputation for upsetting people should know better then to assume

Take the time in future to read what I actually put.

Tyburn
07-07-2009, 12:56 PM
Well Chuck I feel free will is our choice to accept or reject the gospel. But to say God does not know know who will and will not do this is highly a mystery to Him. If there where no free will we have either universalism or we'd have a very hateful God who actually creates people to send to hell. Why does scripture say Jacob I loved Esau I hated? Do you remember what Esau did? He surrendered his birth right. That was his free will. However God knew this and had a plan and the world did not end because of it.
and again...noone has said that GOD granting freewill violates his FOREKNOWLEDGE of events...just because he KNOWS doesnt mean he Causes :rolleyes:

Maglorius
07-07-2009, 08:46 PM
What about the thought of UNLIMITED, LIMITED ATONEMENT. That Jesus died for all but only in a saving way for some. We can pull out all the verse that say Jesus died for all and we can pull out the verses that say Jesus died for many or the church. Well maybe it is both and a verse Like 1 timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. Or 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. Seems like some sort of duality is going on here.:unsure-1: Thoughts.

Tyburn
07-07-2009, 09:08 PM
What about the thought of UNLIMITED, LIMITED ATONEMENT. That Jesus died for all but only in a saving way for some. We can pull out all the verse that say Jesus died for all and we can pull out the verses that say Jesus died for many or the church. Well maybe it is both and a verse Like 1 timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. Or 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. Seems like some sort of duality is going on here.:unsure-1: Thoughts.
The point in dying, was specifically to save them though.

His death is what enables Salvation to be possible, for anyone. It is for want of a better term, the price needed for all the Royal Pardons from the Law for every citizen.

However...if those Citizens decide they want to be tried by the Law instead of receiving a Pardon...then so be it. :unsure:

thekevineri
07-07-2009, 09:10 PM
Predestination - what do you believe???



I think it's there. To an extent.

Because if God is all knowing, then wouldn't he know who was going to 'end up' where? I don't nessicarly beleive he damned people upon their creation, but he has to know the path people are going to take before they take them.

I've had this same conversation a ton with my mother...

The hole in predestination is that if it were true, then free will wouldn't really be free will.

If Predestination is how stuff goes, IMO then it's predestination based of the person's actions and decisions, not the Lord's. If that makes sense? Because if he know that in the end you will come to him, and ask Christ's forgiveness, then he knew from the start that your soul would end up in Heaven.


Did that make any sense?

Tyburn
07-07-2009, 09:21 PM
I think it's there. To an extent.

Because if God is all knowing, then wouldn't he know who was going to 'end up' where? I don't nessicarly beleive he damned people upon their creation, but he has to know the path people are going to take before they take them.

I've had this same conversation a ton with my mother...

The hole in predestination is that if it were true, then free will wouldn't really be free will.

If Predestination is how stuff goes, IMO then it's predestination based of the person's actions and decisions, not the Lord's. If that makes sense? Because if he know that in the end you will come to him, and ask Christ's forgiveness, then he knew from the start that your soul would end up in Heaven.


Did that make any sense?

Yes...but Knowing...and Causing are two different things. I aggree with you. I think GOD knows...but in terms of Salvation, GOD provides the ability and method...but it is only enacted upon, if the person freely chooses it.

Naturally...he knows who will and who wont...but the important question is...does he CAUSE...or does he just KNOW....worse...philosophers will say does his foreknowledge actually cause things to happen? :wacko:

thekevineri
07-07-2009, 09:38 PM
Yes...but Knowing...and Causing are two different things. I aggree with you. I think GOD knows...but in terms of Salvation, GOD provides the ability and method...but it is only enacted upon, if the person freely chooses it.

Naturally...he knows who will and who wont...but the important question is...does he CAUSE...or does he just KNOW....worse...philosophers will say does his foreknowledge actually cause things to happen? :wacko:

Oh yea, i know what your saying, thats why i said if predestination ISNT false, then it is by man's decision, not God's.

Chris F
07-08-2009, 07:43 PM
Never did I say someone could save themselves...THAT is the control. One can choose to allow GOD to save them though.

GOD does the saving so he isultimately in control...but WE are incontrol of accepting or rejecting his free gift.

So before you dare to challenge me, perhaps you should actually READ or ask questions. You who have a known reputation for upsetting people should know better then to assume

Take the time in future to read what I actually put.

Dave try not to opp a gasket and think before you talk. We agree God offers the choice. If there was no free will then Adam and Eve would have never fell. The thing is the bible said before the foundation he already set in motion a plan of salvation because he knew with free will man was fallible and would reject Him. Thus Christ. Predestination as a theology is simply saying God is sovereign and he know who will and will not accept his grace. The question was about predestination so you really should understand its theology before you get so upset at those who do not share your personal theology.

Chris F
07-08-2009, 07:48 PM
We need to all keep in mind Warriorlion original question. People are forgetting we are discussing predestination as it is taught by Luther and Calvin on one side and Wesley and other arminianism on the other. Whats being shared here is great and I think there is a lot of agreeing to disagree. But before we attack one another for what they say one should take the time to understand who those theologians are and what they taught or preface their post with I have no clue but this is what I believe.

I think this has been a very civil discussion and very informative as well.

Tyburn
07-08-2009, 08:54 PM
Dave try not to opp a gasket and think before you talk. We agree God offers the choice. If there was no free will then Adam and Eve would have never fell. The thing is the bible said before the foundation he already set in motion a plan of salvation because he knew with free will man was fallible and would reject Him. Thus Christ. Predestination as a theology is simply saying God is sovereign and he know who will and will not accept his grace. The question was about predestination so you really should understand its theology before you get so upset at those who do not share your personal theology.
What has that got to do with Predestination...which is MORE then just GODs omnipotence.


KNOWING-ALL doesnt mean Predestined, or Pre-Determined. Those two are about ACTS of GOD...CAUSAL effects. GOD specifically CHOOSING for Individuals on matters of Salvation.

Its wholly wrong. I aggree with what you've said above...but that has nothing to do with predestination. :mellow:

warriorlion
07-08-2009, 10:25 PM
I think the reason that this topic has become slightly agrivated (only slightly I must add - which I am impressed with and must say thank you for) is just as has been pointed out by Chris F (I know you never thought I would say that, with the public clashes that we have had in the past on issues.) but the fact of the matter is I asked people to debate this highly volatile subject with scripture to back peoples opinion, as I believe it is good to look at what you believe and why you believe it alongside what the bible acually has to say on the issue at hand.

The problem is that for the past 2 pages other than maybe one or two references what the Word actually says has taken a back seat to the arguements of opinion.

So to get back to scripture for a moment -

I have been looking up the scripures about this, and there are a fair few on the subject. What I want to look at with everyone that has been dicussing this is: -

The bible has several scriptures about the elect

Matt 24:22- 24
22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible

Matt 24:30-31
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

These are also referenced in Mark 13 - verses 20, 22, and 27

Romans 9:10 - 15
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

Romans 11: 6-8
6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[a]

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[b]

Romans 11:27-29

27And this is[a] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[b]

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2 Tim 2:9-11
9for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. 10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;



Titus 1:1-3
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

2 Peter 1:10-11
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
(there are a few others about election in there also)

However even with all these scriptures about election, how do these then justify other scriptures such as:-

2 Peter 3:8-9
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting aANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance.

Then there is this fact:-

Matt28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

THe great commision, if the bible is right about election and the elect then why are we called to make disciples of all nations.

I am still reading the RC Sproul book that has been mentioned before in this thread and it is a very interesting read alsongside my own studies on this issue.

Please take some time to read the scriptures in context and explain your view on the way these seem to reflect differing view points.

Dave I have a passage from the book I am reading that I feel you need to hear, can I recommend that you either get Chosen by God by RC Sproul, but if not I will post the bit I am talking about on here another day.

Tyburn
07-08-2009, 11:00 PM
John This topic hasnt drifted off topic at all!

Foreknowledge is NOT Predestination....you dont need a Bible to tell you that!! understanding the word...PREDESTINED should be enough.

GOD Knowing What Choice a Believer made...DOESNT MEAN HE MADE IT HAPPEN!

Whilst I would believe the Former is True...that he DOES know...which is logical if He is omnipotent...again...nothing you need a Bible to quote from...this is just basic

You have answered your own Questions with your Quote...something which the majority of us have been saying ALL ALONG! That its a bit of Both, and that for GOD Predestination/Freewill might not be the same paradox it is for us.

I wont stand back and take Condemnation from Pastor Chris, whether you aggree with him or not. So if you want to blame someone for the last few unscholarly pages....you might start with the person who owns the quote below...because THATS when I got defensive.

"Then the God you believe in is not a real God because he is not in control and you are!!!!"

Chris F
07-09-2009, 04:50 AM
What has that got to do with Predestination...which is MORE then just GODs omnipotence.


KNOWING-ALL doesnt mean Predestined, or Pre-Determined. Those two are about ACTS of GOD...CAUSAL effects. GOD specifically CHOOSING for Individuals on matters of Salvation.

Its wholly wrong. I aggree with what you've said above...but that has nothing to do with predestination. :mellow:

It has everything to do with it when you discuss the theology in context of them men warriorlion listed. There lies the problem. You do not understand theology apart from your own personal beliefs. Much of what I said came from Institutes of the Christian Religion by Calvin and The Works of john Wesley. On the personal level I know we agree 100%. However how does it relate to Calvin and Wesley and their seemingly contradictory beliefs was the question.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 04:55 AM
John This topic hasnt drifted off topic at all!

Foreknowledge is NOT Predestination....you dont need a Bible to tell you that!! understanding the word...PREDESTINED should be enough.

GOD Knowing What Choice a Believer made...DOESNT MEAN HE MADE IT HAPPEN!

Whilst I would believe the Former is True...that he DOES know...which is logical if He is omnipotent...again...nothing you need a Bible to quote from...this is just basic

You have answered your own Questions with your Quote...something which the majority of us have been saying ALL ALONG! That its a bit of Both, and that for GOD Predestination/Freewill might not be the same paradox it is for us.

I wont stand back and take Condemnation from Pastor Chris, whether you aggree with him or not. So if you want to blame someone for the last few unscholarly pages....you might start with the person who owns the quote below...because THATS when I got defensive.

"Then the God you believe in is not a real God because he is not in control and you are!!!!"

Dave I am not condemning you at all. In fact we agree nearly on every point. As for me being to blame for what I said I am sorry the truth hurts you so deeply. If God does not predestin then he is not God. Bible says those he foreknew he also PREDESTINED. So either he knew it or he is a liar. So by all means show me book chapter and verse that man is in control totally for their salvation and I will concede. Other then that we are on the same page.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 09:15 AM
John This topic hasnt drifted off topic at all!

Foreknowledge is NOT Predestination....you dont need a Bible to tell you that!! understanding the word...PREDESTINED should be enough.

GOD Knowing What Choice a Believer made...DOESNT MEAN HE MADE IT HAPPEN!

Whilst I would believe the Former is True...that he DOES know...which is logical if He is omnipotent...again...nothing you need a Bible to quote from...this is just basic

You have answered your own Questions with your Quote...something which the majority of us have been saying ALL ALONG! That its a bit of Both, and that for GOD Predestination/Freewill might not be the same paradox it is for us.

I wont stand back and take Condemnation from Pastor Chris, whether you aggree with him or not. So if you want to blame someone for the last few unscholarly pages....you might start with the person who owns the quote below...because THATS when I got defensive.

"Then the God you believe in is not a real God because he is not in control and you are!!!!"

First Off Dave I never once stated that we had got off topic. I think you will find I said that the reason that its got slightly heated and arguementative in this topic is because people have not stuck by what I asked, which was to give their views as to what they believe on predestination with the backing of scripture.

THAT is what has not happened the past few pages. And THAT is what I said. You pointed the figured earlier about reading something before responding, can I ask you to do the same thing.

SECOND - I am not blaming anyone for anything.

THRID - the only part of Chris F posting that I have said I agree with was that Chris said that the topic had no longer kept in mind my original request (see FIRST OFF)

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 10:16 AM
ok I said that I would put some stuff here from RC SProul's book taht I have found very interesting

'That God in some sense foreordains whatever comes to pass is a necessary result of His sovereignty. In itself it does not plead for Calvanism. It only declares that God is absolutely sovereign over his creation. God can foreordain things in different ways. But everything that happens must at least gappeb by His permission. If he permists something, then he must decide to allow it. If He decides to allow something, then in a sense he is foreordaining it. Who, among Christians would argue that God could not stop something in this world from happening?
.....To say that God foreordains all that comes to pass is simply to say that God is sovereign over His entire creation. If something could come to pass apart from His sovereign permission, then that which came to pass would frustrate His sovereignty. If God refused to permit something to happen and it happeed anyway, then whatever caused it to happen would have more authority than God himself. If there is any part of creation outside of God sovereignty, then God is simply not soveriegn, then God is not God.
If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God's sovereignty, then we have no guarentee that s single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.

.....we are still left with the question that, given the fact of human sin, how does it relate to God's sovereignty? If it is true that in some sense God foreordains everything that comes to pass, then it follows with no doubt that God must have foreordained the entrance of sin in the world, that is not to say that God forced it happen or that he imposed evil upon his creation. All that measn is that Gid must have decided to allow it to happen. If he did not allow it to happen, then it could not have happened, or else He is not sovereign.
We know God is sovereign, because we know that God is God. THere fore we must conclude that God foreordained sin....
...We must assume that God knew in advance that man would fall. We also must assume that he could have intervened to stop it. Or he could have chosen not to create us at all. We grant all those hypothetical possibilities, bottom line, we know that he knew we would fll and that he went ahead and created us anyway.Why does that mean he is unloving? He also knew in advance that he was going to impliment a plan of redemptionfor his fallen creation that would include a perfect manifestation of his justice and perfect expression of his love and mercy. It was certainly loving of God to predestine the salvation of his people, those the Bible calls his 'elect' or chosen ones.
It is the non elect that are the problem. IF some people are not elected unto salvation then it would seem that God is not that loving toward them. For them it seems that it would have been more loving of God not to have allowd them to be born.
That may indeed be the case, But we must ask the really tough question: Is there any reason that a righteous God ought to be loving towards a creature who hates him and rebels constantly against his divine authority and holiness? The objection raised by the philosopher implies that God owes his love to sinful creatures. That is, the unspoken assumption is that God is obligated to be gracious to sinners. What the philosopher overlooks is that if grace is obligated it is no longer grace. The very essence of grace is that it is undeserved. God always reserves the right to have mercy upon whom he will have mercy. God may owe people justice, but never mercy.....
.....If God can and does choose to insure the salvation of some, why then does he not insure the salvation of all?
Before I try to answer that question, let me point out taht this is not just a Calvanist problem, first face the question, does God have the power to insure the salvation of everyone? Certainly it is within God power to change the heart of every impentinent sinner and bring that sinner to himself, if he lacks the pwer then he is not sovereign....
,,, to violate mans freedom is sin, since God can not sin, he canot unilaterally impose his saving grace on unwilling sinners, to force the sinner to be willing when the sinner is not willing is to violate the sinner. The idea i that be offering grace of the gospel, God does everything he can to helpo the sinner get saved. He has the raw power to coerce men, but the use of such power, would be foreign to God righteousness...
...If it pleases God to save some and not all, there is nothing wrong with that, God is not under obligation to save anybody, if he chooses to save some, that in no way obligates him to save the rest. Again the bible insists that it is God's devine perogative upin who he will have mercy....
....Its does not seem just for God to choose some to recieve his mercy while others do not recieve the benefit of it. To deal with this problem we must do some close but very important thinking. Let us assume taht all men are guilty of sin in sight of God. From that mass of guilty humanity, God sovereignly decides to give mercy to some of them, What do the rest get? They get justice. The saved get mercy the unsaved get ustice. Nobody gets injustice.
Mercy is not justice. But neither is it injustice...
...The real question is why God is inclined to be merciful to anyone. His mercy is not required, yet he freely gives it to his elect. He gave it to Jacopb in a way he did not iv it to Esau. He gave it to Peter in a way he did not give it to judas.we must learn to praise God in both his mery and his justice. WHen he executes his justice he is doing nothing wrong. He is executing his justice according to his righteousness....
.....i suppose it is the tension between divine sovereignty and human freedom, more than any other issue that has driven many christians to claim contradictions as a ligitimate element of faith....
....if human freedom and divine sovereignty are real contradictions then one of them, at least has to go.IF SOVEREIGNTY EXCLUDES FREEDOM AND FREEDOM EXCLUDES SOVEREIGNTY, THEN EITHER gOD IS NOT SOVEREIGN OR MAN IS NOT FREE.
.....we can keep both sovereinty and freedom if we can show that they are not contradictory.
At a human level we readily see that people can enjoy a real measure of freedom in a land ruled by a sovereign monarch. It is not freedom that is cancelled out byt sovereignty, it is authority that cannot coexist with sovereignty. It is autonomy that cannot coexist with sovereignty.
What is autonomy?? The word comes from the prefix auto and the root nomos. Auto means self....the root nomos is the greek word for law. Theword autonomy means then self-law, to be autonomous means to be a law unto oneself. An autonomous creature would be answerable to no one. He would have no governer, least of all a sovereign governer.....so it is with sovereignty and autonomy. If God is sovereign, man cannot possibly ne autonomous. If man is autonomous then God cannot possible be sovereign. These would be contradictions.
One does not have to be autonomous to be free.....we are free, but there are limits to our freedom. The ultimate limit is the sovereignty of God.....God is free. I am free. God is more free that I am. If my freedom runs up against God's freedom, I lose. His freedom restricts mine, my freedom does not restrict his.'
Chosen by God by RC Sproul

lets take time to look at this and see how it challenges our thinking. Keeping mindful of the scriptures I posted last time.

The next chapter of the book of focused on predestination and free will. So will probably have more to bring on this later.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 12:47 PM
Dave I am not condemning you at all. In fact we agree nearly on every point. As for me being to blame for what I said I am sorry the truth hurts you so deeply. If God does not predestin then he is not God. Bible says those he foreknew he also PREDESTINED. So either he knew it or he is a liar. So by all means show me book chapter and verse that man is in control totally for their salvation and I will concede. Other then that we are on the same page.
John 3.16 :)

"whosoever believes in Him" denotes...WHO being in control? :huh: The ability to Believe belongs to the whosoever...which is the created...They cant save themselves, but they can choose to allow GOD to save them.

Whosoever....meaning whoever...not specially ellected people...but whoever believes. Its about Faith...which is the HUMAN response to Grace.

Jesus says "your Faith has healed you"...he says "power has gone out from me" BOTH seeminly show that a person of Faith has some level of influence...thats in the story about the unclean woman...He didnt say "I healed you because you had a strong faith" and he didnt say "I sent my power to heal you" it is written almost as if it were stolen from him on that occasion...hence why he stops and addresses it.

Thats why the TULIP (I think thats the acroymn they use...cant be as true as they say...)

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 12:50 PM
First Off Dave I never once stated that we had got off topic. I think you will find I said that the reason that its got slightly heated and arguementative in this topic is because people have not stuck by what I asked, which was to give their views as to what they believe on predestination with the backing of scripture.

THAT is what has not happened the past few pages. And THAT is what I said. You pointed the figured earlier about reading something before responding, can I ask you to do the same thing.

SECOND - I am not blaming anyone for anything.

THRID - the only part of Chris F posting that I have said I agree with was that Chris said that the topic had no longer kept in mind my original request (see FIRST OFF)
"back on Topic" You said...if that doesnt mean you think we've drifted OFF topic, just what does it mean???

Finally...If you want to talk about Predestination, thats fine...if you want to talk about Calvanism, or Lutherin...then perhaps you should forget the "Predestination" bit and ask us what we think of those particular Theologians. My thought is that anyone who says Foreknowledge of an Event equates to Predestination, has fundementally changed the pragmatics of the word Predestination. :)

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 12:56 PM
I think the reason that this topic has become slightly agrivated (only slightly I must add - which I am impressed with and must say thank you for) is just as has been pointed out by Chris F (I know you never thought I would say that, with the public clashes that we have had in the past on issues.) but the fact of the matter is I asked people to debate this highly volatile subject with scripture to back peoples opinion, as I believe it is good to look at what you believe and why you believe it alongside what the bible acually has to say on the issue at hand.

The problem is that for the past 2 pages other than maybe one or two references what the Word actually says has taken a back seat to the arguements of opinion.

So to get back to scripture for a moment -
.


show me back on topic in there???

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 12:59 PM
"back on Topic" You said...if that doesnt mean you think we've drifted OFF topic, just what does it mean???

Finally...If you want to talk about Predestination, thats fine...if you want to talk about Calvanism, or Lutherin...then perhaps you should forget the "Predestination" bit and ask us what we think of those particular Theologians. My thought is that anyone who says Foreknowledge of an Event equates to Predestination, has fundementally changed the pragmatics of the word Predestination. :)


Dave you cant take predestination without looking at calvanistic view, I want talk of predestination with scripture reference to back up views.

you have not done that at all.

did you read the long passage from the book i spent all that time typing. as it refutes what you are stating about foreknowledgeand predestination, its called sovereignty, and if god is sovereign he must allow things to happen.


As for the fundermentals of perdestination, lets look at that and break it down shall we:-

Destination = where you are going - the final place you end up - as on a journey your destination

des⋅ti⋅na⋅tion  /ˌdɛstəˈneɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [des-tuh-ney-shuhn] –noun 1. the place to which a person or thing travels or is sent: Her destination was Rome.
2. the purpose for which something is destined.


now lets look at the pre section

pre- 
Use pre in a Sentence
a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, where it meant “before” (preclude; prevent); applied freely as a prefix, with the meanings “prior to,” “in advance of,” “early,” “beforehand,” “before,” “in front of,” and with other figurative meanings (preschool; prewar; prepay: preoral; prefrontal).


so it is literally

beforehand the purpose of your destiny.

predetermined = means that its decided before you start out, its from the same root word,

so basically your predestination by very meaning is your destination is already decided before you start out

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 01:18 PM
ok I said that I would put some stuff here from RC SProul's book taht I have found very interesting

1) everything that happens must at least gappeb by His permission. If he permists something, then he must decide to allow it. If He decides to allow something, then in a sense he is foreordaining it. Who, among Christians would argue that God could not stop something in this world from happening?

2) ....To say that God foreordains all that comes to pass is simply to say that God is sovereign over His entire creation. If something could come to pass apart from His sovereign permission, then that which came to pass would frustrate His sovereignty. If God refused to permit something to happen and it happeed anyway, then whatever caused it to happen would have more authority than God himself. If there is any part of creation outside of God sovereignty, then God is simply not soveriegn, then God is not God.

3) .....we are still left with the question that, given the fact of human sin, how does it relate to God's sovereignty? If it is true that in some sense God foreordains everything that comes to pass, then it follows with no doubt that God must have foreordained the entrance of sin in the world, that is not to say that God forced it happen or that he imposed evil upon his creation. All that measn is that Gid must have decided to allow it to happen. If he did not allow it to happen, then it could not have happened, or else He is not sovereign.


4) ...We must assume that God knew in advance that man would fall. We also must assume that he could have intervened to stop it. Or he could have chosen not to create us at all. We grant all those hypothetical possibilities, bottom line, we know that he knew we would fll and that he went ahead and created us anyway.Why does that mean he is unloving? He also knew in advance that he was going to impliment a plan of redemptionfor his fallen creation that would include a perfect manifestation of his justice and perfect expression of his love and mercy. It was certainly loving of God to predestine the salvation of his people, those the Bible calls his 'elect' or chosen ones.
It is the non elect that are the problem. IF some people are not elected unto salvation then it would seem that God is not that loving toward them. For them it seems that it would have been more loving of God not to have allowd them to be born.

5) That may indeed be the case, But we must ask the really tough question: Is there any reason that a righteous God ought to be loving towards a creature who hates him and rebels constantly against his divine authority and holiness? The objection raised by the philosopher implies that God owes his love to sinful creatures. That is, the unspoken assumption is that God is obligated to be gracious to sinners.

6) What the philosopher overlooks is that if grace is obligated it is no longer grace. The very essence of grace is that it is undeserved.

7) Before I try to answer that question, let me point out taht this is not just a Calvanist problem, first face the question, does God have the power to insure the salvation of everyone? Certainly it is within God power to change the heart of every impentinent sinner and bring that sinner to himself, if he lacks the pwer then he is not sovereign....


8) to violate mans freedom is sin, since God can not sin, he canot unilaterally impose his saving grace on unwilling sinners, to force the sinner to be willing when the sinner is not willing is to violate the sinner. The idea i that be offering grace of the gospel, God does everything he can to helpo the sinner get saved. He has the raw power to coerce men, but the use of such power, would be foreign to God righteousness...


9) Mercy is not justice. But neither is it injustice...

10) If God is sovereign, man cannot possibly ne autonomous. If man is autonomous then God cannot possible be sovereign. These would be contradictions.

11) RC Sproul

lets take time to look at this and see how it challenges our thinking. Keeping mindful of the scriptures I posted last time.

The next chapter of the book of focused on predestination and free will. So will probably have more to bring on this later.

1) I dissagree. GOD Permits all the outcomes of Freewill, and the giving of Freewill you could claim was predestined...but only if you think GOD made Adam and Eve Sin.

I believe that GOD created both Heavenly Host and Humans with the ability and potential to sin. He then allowed them freewill and permits whatever happens as a result of that.

That is not predestination. It is foreknowledge of the event, it is passive permission...but it is not the ordaining, or ordering of anything in advance of the chronological time.

The ability to Stop something, doesnt mean you have caused it to happen in the first place. To stop something would be a violation of Freewill, that is why GOD does not stop it, that is why GOD permits it to happen. He doesnt plan it to happen...he knows that it will, but he doesnt make it happen.

2) Permission and Predestination are NOT the same thing. The former is acceptance of what is to happen WHEN it happens, the second is PLANNING AND EXECUTING what is to happen :rolleyes:

3) the real question is...did GOD deliberatley make an imperfect Creation? The answer is yes on two counts...first if everything had been perfect it would have been totally on a level with him...no creation has ever been on equal footing with GOD...secondly...You have to admit that in both Host and Human was planted the ability to sin...that ability is an imperfection in creation. The Potential to sin IS Original Sin PRIOR to its manifestation. GOD created the potential, Lucifer, Adam and Eve manifested it.

4) Exactly :laugh:

5) wrong Question to ask. The question is not, Why should GOD love anyone anyway, the question is, why would GOD create allowing and having advanced knowledge of the Fall...the Answer to that question, answers why even if we have no right to expect GOD to love us, he will.

He creates out of Love and out of enjoyment, his creation is designed to please him, that is the purpose. but without freewill, his Creation cant choose to love him back. He loves us because he created us in His image and because we have intrinsic value. He would rather we all went to Hell then were forced to love him back...so he gives the option for those who do love him to be saved at immense personal cost to him...and permits those who dont love him to go their own separate way.

6) and what this theologian might have forgotten is its EXACTLY the same with Love :)

7) No he doesnt have the power without violating Free will. Thats the whole point. He cant just overturn Judgement, because part of his nature is to remain Holy. However great his love, his Judgement makes him GOD. So without removing freewill completely...the answer is...No...GOD cant.

8) Not sure that GOD violating Freewill is a Sin. Where in the Bible does it say that? I think its more the case that he wont violate on the grounds that it extinguishes Love. His aim, to get his people to Love him...He will never achieve that if he violates freewill enough to save them all.

9) Mercy is an injustice if its not open to all. Injustice is a Sin. GOD can not sin, therefore his Mercy extends to all. Why arent all saved? because some will not accept his Mercy. Why does he permit this? Because to violate such, would be a force of his mercy through sin. Without Accepting Mercy, the people are still due a trial.

He cant save them one way because if violates free will, he cant save them the other way because the debt of sin needs to be paid without their autonomous choice.

10) they can if GOD permits them to be autonomous in certain areas. That is suspension of his powers, not a sign he has none. The Monarch can choose not to excersise law...that in itself is an act of soverignty...only GOD can give us freewill...its still an act of Soverign GOD...Humans didnt develope it by themselves. :rolleyes:

11) I've decided I dont like him :angry: :laugh:

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 01:25 PM
Dave you cant take predestination without looking at calvanistic view, I want talk of predestination with scripture reference to back up views.

you have not done that at all.

did you read the long passage from the book i spent all that time typing. as it refutes what you are stating about foreknowledgeand predestination, its called sovereignty, and if god is sovereign he must allow things to happen.


As for the fundermentals of perdestination, lets look at that and break it down shall we:-

Destination = where you are going - the final place you end up - as on a journey your destination

des⋅ti⋅na⋅tion  /ˌdɛstəˈneɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [des-tuh-ney-shuhn] –noun 1. the place to which a person or thing travels or is sent: Her destination was Rome.
2. the purpose for which something is destined.


now lets look at the pre section

pre- 
Use pre in a Sentence
a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, where it meant “before” (preclude; prevent); applied freely as a prefix, with the meanings “prior to,” “in advance of,” “early,” “beforehand,” “before,” “in front of,” and with other figurative meanings (preschool; prewar; prepay: preoral; prefrontal).


so it is literally

beforehand the purpose of your destiny.

predetermined = means that its decided before you start out, its from the same root word,

so basically your predestination by very meaning is your destination is already decided before you start out

GOD Sees the Outcome from the Begining (NOT Predestination)

GOD gives his permission (NOT Presdestination, just passive acceptance)

GOD creates the Outcome From the Begining (Predestination)

GOD see and Plans the Outcome from the begining (Predestination)

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 02:11 PM
GOD Sees the Outcome from the Begining (NOT Predestination)

GOD gives his permission (NOT Presdestination, just passive acceptance)

GOD creates the Outcome From the Begining (Predestination)

GOD see and Plans the Outcome from the begining (Predestination)

This is where you are getting it wrong mate.

God sees the outcome, and allows it to happen, knowing that it will, NOT might happen like the fall, God made humans knowing that we would fall, nit that there was a potential to fall, Knowing that it WOULD. therefore it was allowed by God, other God is not sovereign and therefore His very nature is flawed, Also proving that in fact predestination is the key here, as the bottom line is taht God knew before it WOULD happen - pre, and that human destiny was to sin and fall short of God and so would come under the wrath of His judgement and justice - destiny - therefore in very nature it is predestination - God knew before creating us in His image that we would rebel and that our destination would be HELL.

What you are forgetting here is that God is righteous and a judge, if you look at it in human terms and say that God is a court judge and has 6 billion criminals in front of him on trail who are all 10% guilty, not an innocent amoung them, each of those criminals deserve justice and sentancing from a just place, this is exactly what God does with us and so our destination and right resting place is hell. Especially considering that sin and evil can not stand in the presence of God (see old testament preists with ropesround their ankles incase they were not pure, see what God told Moses about seeing his face)

At the same time then if that Judge decides that some of those 100% guilty people will be subject to his mercy and therefore not recieve the justice that they deserve, that is grace, and that is what is being pointed out here.

Its also what I feel you are missing. You and I have NO devine right to believe that swe deserve anything other than punishment from God - you and I are guilty as charged, we are fallen and are creatures with a sinful nature.

Freewill is something else entirely. You are currently free in the UK, you can worship who you want to, you can live without fear of death due to your religion, its a free existance, however you are subject to the laws of this land, if you stick within those rules you are free to do what you wish to do, you step outside of those laws and that freedom is taken away. You are punished in accordance to those laws, so as it stands this very day you live a free life under a sovereign government - you have freeedom however your freedom is restricted by the freedom offered by the law.

Its the same with your walk with God, yo have freedom of choice within the boudaries that you are afforded by the freedom of God.

You are not a law unto yourself, and therefore not autonomous as a creation, however God is. Therefore your free will when it comes up against God free will always loses.

This is predestination - God allows things to happen knowing that they WILL happen. Foreknowledge dictates that you know that something can or will happen, but its out of your control to change it. Like gravity, If I drop a stone I KNOW it will fall to the ground, however I an pwerless to change the facts, God however is not powerless, if he so chooses, that Stone will not fall. But he like me knows it will and he allows it to happen. Its in his power to make it happen or allow the law of gravity to work.

That is foreordaining gravity to work in its natural state. In the same way God knew that sin would make man fall, he had the abilty and the power to stop it, still does, but chooses to allow it, giving us free will inside and restricted by His WILL.

If taht were not the case then God would and could not be God. if God willed that something was not to happen and it did anyway that would make His authority nil and vpoid as there wouldbe something greater than He

AND THAT is not the case at all.

NOTHING HAPPENS EXCEPT BY THE WILL OF GOD

bottom line

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 05:48 PM
This is where you are getting it wrong mate.

God sees the outcome, and allows it to happen, knowing that it will, NOT might happen like the fall, God made humans knowing that we would fall, nit that there was a potential to fall, Knowing that it WOULD. therefore it was allowed by God, other God is not sovereign and therefore His very nature is flawed, Also proving that in fact predestination is the key here, as the bottom line is taht God knew before it WOULD happen

1) This is predestination - God allows things to happen knowing that they WILL happen. Foreknowledge dictates that you know that something can or will happen, but its out of your control to change it. Like gravity, If I drop a stone I KNOW it will fall to the ground, however I an pwerless to change the facts, God however is not powerless, if he so chooses, that Stone will not fall. But he like me knows it will and he allows it to happen. Its in his power to make it happen or allow the law of gravity to work.


That is NOT Predestination! For Predestination he HAS TO not only have power over it. but also EXERCISE that power all the time. THAT is predetermined.

So GOD wills Suicide and Murder does he? Every tragic event is ordained by GOD...He has planned it all? Thats utter Rot. He might KNOW it all, but he hasnt Pre-ordained it all. Man is fallen, half those things have nothing to do with GOD at all...he permits them to happen...but he doesnt make them happen. Permission is NOT Predestination.

I suppose I might as well quit whilst I'm ahead. No wonder I never see answers to prayer, no wonder I dont have a wonderfully personal relationship with GOD, no wonder the scriptures dont make sense to me. I'm obviously not one of the "ellect"...and may I also suggest you stop the Great Commission....why bother? GODs will is always achieved...he doesnt need your help. So there is no need to live a good example of a Christian life..in fact life is meaningless for both sides of the coin...if you've been ellected...you may as well do nothing until you get to heaven...the rest of us may as will die now...since we have no possibility of getting to heaven...and before you think I'm saying this to illustrate the obvious holes in a Loveless GOD which is what that theology leads to...remember that in my situation, strong Christians HAVE said that people who suffer the types of burdens that I do cant become Christians.

Your theology would explain a lot. It would make sense of a great deal of trauma, it is a possiblity that confirms...hey...I'm worthless because I'm not ellected, I have no choice in the matter, I deserve nothing better...so who cares!

Never mind the Dueteronomy "Choose Life" verses, where GOD gives his people the choice. Thats obviously not true. Nevermind what Saint John says about anyone being able to be saved by believe and faith, he must be mistaken.

"11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"

...and I suppose this is the speak of a GOD who would create a human being specifically for Hell?? Now YOU tell me that the author of such words would create someone to go specifically to Hell? You DONT lament over such creation unless it holds GREAT worth to you!

Dont you dare tell me the Old Testament doesnt count neither!


" 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Its Ezekiel



You wanted Scripture...I give it to you. You should care less about Church Dogma, Foolish Theological Philosophers...and see that whilst any decision could be predestined...Salvation OBVIOUSLY and UNDENIABLY cant be wholly a matter of GOD

GOD wouldnt Plead if he was the deciding factor in the Cause of the Choice of an individual over their salvation would he? He says "he will save his life" By choosing Salvation and Choosing Life..YES you can cause yourself to be eligable for Salvation...all you have to do is except! does the above strike you as the speak of a GOD who wills people to Hell? when he says "I take NO pleasure in the death of ANYONE"

???:huh:

Maglorius
07-09-2009, 05:58 PM
What I want to propose and ask here is how free is our will? In the book that warrior lion is reading it talks about the level of free will in man. RC Sproul argues and I agree that only Adam and Eve truly had free will. They could choose to sin or not to sin. After the fall man did not have that same free will. We have only two choices we can make: to sin and unable not to sin. Born with a sin nature that is all we can do. Now because of that sin nature it makes us spiritually dead to God and in our own natural desires could never and would never choose God. No one seeks after God. Romans 3. Now in order for someone to be able to choose Jesus something must happen to cause this decision to occur. That would be Gods free will acting upon another persons heart to change that person, giving that person a new heart and nature to choose Jesus. Upon that change, being reborn we are back to two choices: To sin or not to sin. Now, truly seeking after God can happen, but not before.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 06:03 PM
You are still missing the point mate,

I never once said that God wills bad tings to happen, however he allows it. Predestination is not about God executing evil, far from it. Its about allowing evil to work in the world, making people like us see the glory of God and the grace that He alone can pass onto us.

You have given me scripture, there is no need to get angry about it, just because someone doesnt agree with you, that doesnt mean you need to shout, or get mad, that is debate, people have different views.

I have said from the very beginning that I am on the fence in this issue, I am doing my own studies, and I have used the same arguements that you do, however I must give both options full viability, which means since you are vehemently arguing against predestination, I have to show evidence for the other point of view.

I do not know for sure about predestination as far as people being chosen to go to hell and those that dont, I understand the arguements that have been presented, however I do strongly disagree with your view point on what predestined is. I also think that the theology of a man who holds degrees from Westminster College, Pennsylvania (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh-Xenia Theological Seminary (M.Div, 1964), the Free University of Amsterdam (Drs., 1969), and Whitefield Theological Seminary (Ph.D., 2001). He had to learn the Dutch language while studying in the Netherlands which he has described as a trying experience. He has taught at numerous colleges and seminaries, including Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando and Jackson, Mississippi, and Knox Theological Seminary in Ft. Lauderdale, may be worth looking at open mindedly, especially given the fact that I am human and God is God, therefore His ways are higher than mine, and so someone with more education in theology than I will ever likely get is worth giving time to review.

What I would ask of you David, i to try to open your mind to something that you may not be that comfortable with, to see that you may just be wrong in what you believe, you may be right, but without hearing and reviewing the faces of both cases you can not make a decision

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 06:06 PM
there is also the arguement that unless you are elect you would not choose to follow God, that has been put to me also, so for yourself David, as a person taht has chosen to believe you would be part of the elect.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 06:12 PM
You are still missing the point mate,

I never once said that God wills bad tings to happen, however he allows it. Predestination is not about God executing evil, far from it. Its about allowing evil to work in the world, making people like us see the glory of God and the grace that He alone can pass onto us.

You have given me scripture, there is no need to get angry about it, just because someone doesnt agree with you, that doesnt mean you need to shout, or get mad, that is debate, people have different views.

I have said from the very beginning that I am on the fence in this issue, I am doing my own studies, and I have used the same arguements that you do, however I must give both options full viability, which means since you are vehemently arguing against predestination, I have to show evidence for the other point of view.

I do not know for sure about predestination as far as people being chosen to go to hell and those that dont, I understand the arguements that have been presented, however I do strongly disagree with your view point on what predestined is. I also think that the theology of a man who holds degrees from Westminster College, Pennsylvania (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh-Xenia Theological Seminary (M.Div, 1964), the Free University of Amsterdam (Drs., 1969), and Whitefield Theological Seminary (Ph.D., 2001). He had to learn the Dutch language while studying in the Netherlands which he has described as a trying experience. He has taught at numerous colleges and seminaries, including Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando and Jackson, Mississippi, and Knox Theological Seminary in Ft. Lauderdale, may be worth looking at open mindedly, especially given the fact that I am human and God is God, therefore His ways are higher than mine, and so someone with more education in theology than I will ever likely get is worth giving time to review.

What I would ask of you David, i to try to open your mind to something that you may not be that comfortable with, to see that you may just be wrong in what you believe, you may be right, but without hearing and reviewing the faces of both cases you can not make a decision
That is NOT predestination.

:blink:

Just because your Theologian has changed the pragmatism of the meaning of the word :unsure: Thats what he's basically done. to try and show there is no paradox. He's changed the meaning of the word. His Version of Predestination is simply nothing more then foreknowledge and acceptance by passive permission, that doesnt ammount to GOD acting, or pushing, or making decisions for us. I aggree with what he says in that respect...but I wont call it Predestination...when the common understanding of the word, is that its the complete lack of free will, the complete planning and executing by GOD of his will, at all times....thats more then permission for evil to act.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 06:18 PM
there is also the arguement that unless you are elect you would not choose to follow God, that has been put to me also, so for yourself David, as a person taht has chosen to believe you would be part of the elect.
If that were true...then explain the part where some Christians call GOD, Lord...and GOD turns round and says words to the effect of "you do not belong to me"

Perhaps...thats the bracket I'm in.

Those who are unellected...but decide to try and go along with it anyway...they call Jesus, Lord...but he doesnt recognise them because they are not Ellected?

...and the bit in Revelation doesnt have to mean that we are happy. "God shall wipe away your tears" Why might you be crying exactly?? :unsure-1: I've always wondered if its because you might miss your friends, the ones who arent lucky enough to be ellected.

You have to understand John...three weeks ago...a few months ago...you would have gotten a VERY different answer to this question from me. It not been long that I have learned the truth about intrinsic value...something that goes out the window if Salvation is on the basis of divine ellection only....then...once again...only some people have value for being made in the image of GOD...and their value is their ellection...for the rest of us, made in the image of GOD, doesnt mean we have any value, sine GOD has decided he doesnt love us, doesnt desire our Love in return...and infact made us with Hell in mind.

I dont believe that.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 06:21 PM
That is NOT predestination.

:blink:

Just because your Theologian has changed the pragmatism of the meaning of the word :unsure: Thats what he's basically done. to try and show there is no paradox. He's changed the meaning of the word. His Version of Predestination is simply nothing more then foreknowledge and acceptance by passive permission, that doesnt ammount to GOD acting, or pushing, or making decisions for us. I aggree with what he says in that respect...but I wont call it Predestination...when the common understanding of the word, is that its the complete lack of free will, the complete planning and executing by GOD of his will, at all times....thats more then permission for evil to act.

But you are not talking paradox, you are talking contradiction. there is a difference.

He is not MY theologian to start with, he is the author of a book I am reading - however, go read any systematic theology book and they will all show case for predestination, no matter what you think, and I know that you are not comfortable with the idea. Thats ok, but that doesnt change the fact that it may just be the truth.

as a side note
According to Chambers 20th century dictionary the verb “to predestine” means to decree beforehand, or to foreordain. This is not in the sense of making a prediction that might or might not come true, but in the sense of determining exactly what will happen. Thus the act of predestining can only be performed by someone who actually has the power to bring about the result that has been decided upon.


David explain the scriptures mentioned before, each calling out the elect.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 06:23 PM
Setting aside the semantics of wording, David explain the scriptures mentioned before, each calling out the elect.
Okay.:unsure-1:

as soon as you explain each of the passages saying its about personal Choice :)

Chris F
07-09-2009, 06:27 PM
John 3.16 :)

"whosoever believes in Him" denotes...WHO being in control? :huh: The ability to Believe belongs to the whosoever...which is the created...They cant save themselves, but they can choose to allow GOD to save them.

Whosoever....meaning whoever...not specially ellected people...but whoever believes. Its about Faith...which is the HUMAN response to Grace.

Jesus says "your Faith has healed you"...he says "power has gone out from me" BOTH seeminly show that a person of Faith has some level of influence...thats in the story about the unclean woman...He didnt say "I healed you because you had a strong faith" and he didnt say "I sent my power to heal you" it is written almost as if it were stolen from him on that occasion...hence why he stops and addresses it.

Thats why the TULIP (I think thats the acroymn they use...cant be as true as they say...)

Can you believe if the Holy Spirit does not reveal Christ to you? You ever wander why so many people just never turn to Christ even when they have been preached the truth for years? It is because the Holy Spirit has not revealed Christ and the scripture to them. So John 3:16 means Satan believes so is he going to heaven. The Muslims believe in Jesus are they going to heaven? Hitler believed in Jesus will he go to heaven? God still decides who? Bible says many are called (whosoever) but few are CHOSEN. You should take a gander at two books. The Sovereignty of Godby J I Packer and Chosen by God RC Sproul. While I may not agree wiht their theology fully theses book do a great job showing biblical support that free will and Gods sovereign will are compatible.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 06:39 PM
GOD Sees the Outcome from the Begining (NOT Predestination)

GOD gives his permission (NOT Presdestination, just passive acceptance)

GOD creates the Outcome From the Begining (Predestination)

GOD see and Plans the Outcome from the begining (Predestination)

So you do not believe God sends people in ones life to sow seed water and hopefully harvest their soul? So man in confinement w/o no interaction can come to full understanding of who Chrsit is for salvation?

So do you also not believe that God allows things to happen that might bring some one else closer to himself. I.E. a death a sickness etc? To say God did not know this would happen and thus set in motion the things needed to fix it is worse then blasphemy. God knew ADAM would fall so he predestined a plan Christ on the Cross so that salvation may come to those who are fallen.

God does create outcomes. He created freewill which causes the sin in the world to start. No free will no Satan and no sin. Sin causes the sickness in this World. God allows those event to happen to influence His will onto peoples lives. I know many who came to the Lord because of tragedy.

And yes God see the outcome from the start and I am sure it grieves Him to know so many will reject grace and go to hell a place he created for Satan and those who reject him. Predestintion is biblical random chance and man controlling their own life is not.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 06:43 PM
That is NOT Predestination! For Predestination he HAS TO not only have power over it. but also EXERCISE that power all the time. THAT is predetermined.

So GOD wills Suicide and Murder does he? Every tragic event is ordained by GOD...He has planned it all? Thats utter Rot. He might KNOW it all, but he hasnt Pre-ordained it all. Man is fallen, half those things have nothing to do with GOD at all...he permits them to happen...but he doesnt make them happen. Permission is NOT Predestination.

I suppose I might as well quit whilst I'm ahead. No wonder I never see answers to prayer, no wonder I dont have a wonderfully personal relationship with GOD, no wonder the scriptures dont make sense to me. I'm obviously not one of the "ellect"...and may I also suggest you stop the Great Commission....why bother? GODs will is always achieved...he doesnt need your help. So there is no need to live a good example of a Christian life..in fact life is meaningless for both sides of the coin...if you've been ellected...you may as well do nothing until you get to heaven...the rest of us may as will die now...since we have no possibility of getting to heaven...and before you think I'm saying this to illustrate the obvious holes in a Loveless GOD which is what that theology leads to...remember that in my situation, strong Christians HAVE said that people who suffer the types of burdens that I do cant become Christians.

Your theology would explain a lot. It would make sense of a great deal of trauma, it is a possiblity that confirms...hey...I'm worthless because I'm not ellected, I have no choice in the matter, I deserve nothing better...so who cares!

Never mind the Dueteronomy "Choose Life" verses, where GOD gives his people the choice. Thats obviously not true. Nevermind what Saint John says about anyone being able to be saved by believe and faith, he must be mistaken.

"11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"

...and I suppose this is the speak of a GOD who would create a human being specifically for Hell?? Now YOU tell me that the author of such words would create someone to go specifically to Hell? You DONT lament over such creation unless it holds GREAT worth to you!

Dont you dare tell me the Old Testament doesnt count neither!


" 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Its Ezekiel



You wanted Scripture...I give it to you. You should care less about Church Dogma, Foolish Theological Philosophers...and see that whilst any decision could be predestined...Salvation OBVIOUSLY and UNDENIABLY cant be wholly a matter of GOD

GOD wouldnt Plead if he was the deciding factor in the Cause of the Choice of an individual over their salvation would he? He says "he will save his life" By choosing Salvation and Choosing Life..YES you can cause yourself to be eligable for Salvation...all you have to do is except! does the above strike you as the speak of a GOD who wills people to Hell? when he says "I take NO pleasure in the death of ANYONE"

???:huh:

So by your logic Dave man chooses his own salvation and has no need for the cross. This makes it a work of the flesh and Galatians clearly rejects this. It cannot be mans flesh that makes the choice it must be the Spirit of God that draws them via His grace. Not by works lest any man boast. You sir are boasting in your ability to choose salvation. One cannot be saved by anything less than Gods pure grace to choose you for salvation. SO you scriptures here are out of context and make it seems like man is sovereign and not God.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 06:45 PM
1)If that were true...then explain the part where some Christians call GOD, Lord...and GOD turns round and says words to the effect of "you do not belong to me"


2)You have to understand John...three weeks ago...a few months ago...you would have gotten a VERY different answer to this question from me. It not been long that I have learned the truth about intrinsic value...something that goes out the window if Salvation is on the basis of divine ellection only....then...once again...only some people have value for being made in the image of GOD...and their value is their ellection...for the rest of us, made in the image of GOD, doesnt mean we have any value, sine GOD has decided he doesnt love us, doesnt desire our Love in return...and infact made us with Hell in mind.

I dont believe that.


1) That part of the bible is where God tells people that cast out demons in his name and healed the sick that he never knew them. Believing the Jesus is real is not enough. Heck Satan and every demon believe and know that Jesus is real, they know the bible better than you or I could ever hope to and yet they are still going to hell, and yet they too like humans are creature that have God's love. The interpretation of this passage hinges not on the expression, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'" but on the expression, "He who does the will of My Father."

Jesus did not say that no one who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. He said, rather, that not all who say that will enter.

2) you still misunderstand that it is not about Love, God loves man, always has and always will. This is about justice and mercy. WHat you eed to realise and understand is that God is HOLY. When we get our heads round what that really means we then need to get our head around the fact that God is righteous.
As a result of that people that are guilty can not stand before God, and so all deserve to perish, there is no exceptions to that fact no one. And so the punishment must be fulfilled, and a price must be paid. Its not about love at all, as the price still has to be paid no matter how much someone is loved. And since God is just and judge, the penalty for sin is death, and that must be honoured, otherwise if God contradicts that pattern, then everything God stands for falls apart. That is why Jesus had to come in the first place to pay the price. But thats not to say that all people will be subject to the grace and mercy God has shown. But it is not about love or about worth, but that God is Holy and as a sovereign and Holy God a price must be paid and as people we do NOT deserve or have any right to those things, the only thing we have a right to is punishment. So if God choses to show mercy, then He holds the devine right to have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 06:48 PM
What I want to propose and ask here is how free is our will? In the book that warrior lion is reading it talks about the level of free will in man. RC Sproul argues and I agree that only Adam and Eve truly had free will. They could choose to sin or not to sin. After the fall man did not have that same free will. We have only two choices we can make: to sin and unable not to sin. Born with a sin nature that is all we can do. Now because of that sin nature it makes us spiritually dead to God and in our own natural desires could never and would never choose God. No one seeks after God. Romans 3. Now in order for someone to be able to choose Jesus something must happen to cause this decision to occur. That would be Gods free will acting upon another persons heart to change that person, giving that person a new heart and nature to choose Jesus. Upon that change, being reborn we are back to two choices: To sin or not to sin. Now, truly seeking after God can happen, but not before.

Excellent question and this is where the conflict truly lies. How free is our will. Man can reject the gospel. Then the question is why would they? Free will or are they just not chosen by God to be saved? That is the debate that has raged for many years. I wish I had all the answers but I am only sure of one thing. Jesus died on the cross and because of that by His grace I am saved.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 06:49 PM
http://www.reason4living.com/articles/totw0017.htm

surveyorshawn
07-09-2009, 07:29 PM
I have sat on the outside reading this thread ever since it started, and have finally decided to respond. Keep in mind guys, that though our opinions on this may vary, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, are on the same team, and are to love and bear with one another. We are ONE body. Your beliefs in regard to predestination are not going to send you to hell or Heaven any more than my views, which may or may not differ, are.

We have several admonitions in scripture about unity, and about arguing and fighting and what those things may cause. Not that we are never to argue about anything, but we should certainly weigh the subject and see if it is important enough to warrant the potential outcome. Convincing someone that they are lost and going to hell without Jesus would certainly be worth it, because if they are convinced, then they will be saved, but if not, they have simply remained in the state they were already in.

If everything is predestined completely, including all salvation, then does it really matter whether anyone else shares that view or not, since they are already predestined to be saved or to go to hell, regardless of what they believe? If we believe totally in that, and are wrong, then what harm have we caused? We could have not witnessed to others or showed Christ to them because we believed if they are of the elect, they will be saved with or without us. That could produce dire results. That is a very real attitude among many (not all) proponents of that extent of predestination, and many refer to themselves as the "frozen chosen" as a result.

However, the converse view could actually cause a difference, because if we believe that the destiny of the souls of people may actually depend to some extent on us spreading the gospel to them, then perhaps it will spurn us to action in actually witnessing to others. If we believe that, but are wrong, then what harm have we caused? We have simply asked people to have faith in Christ and to live good and righteous lives to demonstrate their repentance. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with that.

So, in weighing this particular argument, I would like to know what there is to be gained, other than perhaps offending someone because you do not agree with them? Does that make it worth it? The calm exchange of ideas while accepting the ideas of others, being Christlike, and at worst, agreeing to disagree is certainly a noble pursuit, but that is not the majority of what I have seen on this particular thread. I am not naming anyone or insinuating that any person is more to blame than anyone else. I am merely admonishing all of us to keep these things in perspective and have a Christ-like discussion about this, or use wisdom and leave it. In such a discussion, we should wind up respecting and loving one another more at the end, even if we disagree.

If we can do that, I will gladly weigh in on the subject (moreso than I did above).

surveyorshawn
07-09-2009, 07:35 PM
Just to clarify, I am not saying there has not been some good honest Christ-like exchange of ideas in this thread, there has been. However, there have been a fair amount of negative posts, and those are the ones I am admonishing to rethink their approach. God bless & keep the good stuff coming!

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 07:40 PM
well that was kind what I was trying to get at in the beginning of this thread, I was a debate and to find out peoples view, based on scripture as to what caused their view, and to have a discussion on the subject, which is pretty important when you look at it as you have. No it doesnt effect my salvation, but what of that of my family who as yet are not saved, will me witnessing to them make a difference, truely. Thats not to say that I do not, as I would like to think I am an example to them more through my actions and how i live my life than through the words I say to them,

But the point of this thread was for discussion, I did quite plainly ask for people not to let this get into a fight

Chris F
07-09-2009, 07:43 PM
Just to clarify, I am not saying there has not been some good honest Christ-like exchange of ideas in this thread, there has been. However, there have been a fair amount of negative posts, and those are the ones I am admonishing to rethink their approach. God bless & keep the good stuff coming!

It gets emotional now and again but at the end of the day most do not hold any hard feelings. Theology is touchy because we have a huge diversity here for the most part. The best thing to do is say you peace and never let it get personal. You made some good points which must be considered and so far has not been brought up. Good points!

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 08:45 PM
Can you believe if the Holy Spirit does not reveal Christ to you? You ever wander why so many people just never turn to Christ even when they have been preached the truth for years? It is because the Holy Spirit has not revealed Christ and the scripture to them.
:ninja: You have a point.

But I would say to you that, that point applies to converts...it doesnt really answer the question of, those who were brought up in the Faith.

Try to understand, that some of us have no "before" time. I've always been a Christian...there has never been a time when I truely did not believe, because my parents told me the truth from the very begining.

I understand your point relating to those who grow up in a heathen household...and suddenly convert. That is certainly FAR more compelling an argument for predestination to heaven/hell then any of those strange theologian philosophers.

The Question being thus "Does it take Revelation from GOD for people to realize they have to make a choice in the first place?" That way, some people would presumably never make the choice, not because they cant, but because they dont know of the option....and yet...the truth is out there in the public domain...its not like the truth is hidden....Isnt it in Proverbs that it says only a fool believes there is no GOD...based solely on Creation...one cant honnestly be stupid enough to believe in nothing...and again, all men search for something, to give themselves purpose and meaning...could those be the Revelations? only, those are free to all aswell.

The unfortunate thing you end up thinking is that most of GODs beloved Creation is just to stupid to make up its own mind. I think many would perfer GOD to make the choice for them...to somehow jump up behind them and push them into making the decision.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 08:54 PM
1) So you do not believe God sends people in ones life to sow seed water and hopefully harvest their soul? So man in confinement w/o no interaction can come to full understanding of who Chrsit is for salvation?

2) So do you also not believe that God allows things to happen that might bring some one else closer to himself. I.E. a death a sickness etc? To say God did not know this would happen and thus set in motion the things needed to fix it is worse then blasphemy. God knew ADAM would fall so he predestined a plan Christ on the Cross so that salvation may come to those who are fallen.

God does create outcomes. He created freewill which causes the sin in the world to start. No free will no Satan and no sin. Sin causes the sickness in this World. God allows those event to happen to influence His will onto peoples lives. I know many who came to the Lord because of tragedy.

3) And yes God see the outcome from the start and I am sure it grieves Him to know so many will reject grace and go to hell a place he created for Satan and those who reject him. Predestintion is biblical random chance and man controlling their own life is not.
1) Well..I'm strictly talking about free will in terms of actively choosing Salvation. I am not saying that GOD doesnt work behind the scenes to coerce, I am not saying that once Saved GOD doesnt work actively in ones life. I was talking about the acceptance of Jesus Christ leading to Salvation...and that choice alone.

To be honnest...outside of that single choice...I dont care whether everything else is 100percent predetermined or not.

2) Again...I think GOD can set in motion events designed to bring people to Him....and he knows the results of that from the start...BUT I would still say that final decision is theres and theres alone. I dont think he forces anyone to choose to Love him...or else...noone truely loves him...because Love isnt something that can be forced like that.

3) Freewill is also central to the Bible...more so then Predestination I think...certainly more then predestination which covers anything more then foreknowledge that comes with an omnipotent GOD

surveyorshawn
07-09-2009, 08:57 PM
Thanks, guys. I will state my beliefs, but will preface it with this: I do not believe in predestination to the extent that the Calvinists do, however, I would rather be wrong in that regard and "waste" my time witnessing to people as much as I can than hold to those beliefs and be wrong, having the blood of all the people who only I could influence on my hands. Not that I don't believe God could send anyone else, or that the people I witness to will all respond positively to the message, mind you, but I think you get my point. Warriorlion, keep witnessing to your family and others, it is never in vain when you look at it like that.

The Greek word rendered "predestination" is only mentioned 6 times in scripture, while the passages referring to the free will of someone accepting the Gospel appear a multitude more times. Now, that does not refute predestination, because if it was only mentioned once in scripture then it has merit. I believe, however, that we need to take all the passages together. Many cults are formed by isolating scripture and not taking it in context or comparing it with the other scriptures about the same kind of thing (salvation and the sovereignty of God, in this case). We should take a more "hollistic" approach to scripture, rather than isolating things. Although it is comprised of many books written over thousands of years, the Bible is still really one book containing God's message to us, and no part of it contradicts another, but rather all the parts work together to give us that message.
Here is an example: One time someone told me that I was not really saved because I was not baptized strictly in the name of Jesus. I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. He quoted some scripture that backed up his claim. One was where people asked Peter "what must we do to be saved", and he told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. Another was a passage in 2 Peter where Peter used the example of Noah & the ark as a type of baptism, citing how it saves us (baptism, that is). This guy used valid scriptures, but he neglected the other scriptures in doing so that 1) show that salvation is by grace through faith 2) the Great Commission manner that Jesus says to baptize (Peter's instructions really agree with Jesus' if you think about it...afterall, Jesus IS the son) , and many other scriptures on salvation, baptism, etc. I was able to easily refute what he tried to tell me by quoting tons of verses, not just one or two like he did. That is just an example of placing more weight on one verse or a few verses, rather than the large body of scripture.

Now, back to predestination. Predestination is not foreknowledge (just knowing what is going to happen), but rather it is causing a certain outcome by ordering events. Based on what I read in scripture, God has a perfect will (ex. "He is not willing that any should perish"), and He also has a permissible will, as in He does allow certain things to happen...even evil things. God is sovereign and in control of everything, and nothing can happen that He either does not do or does not allow. Remember that before Satan could do anything to Job, he had to ask for God's permission. God cannot do anything evil, because He is perfect. He does however, allow some evil things to happen, and because we are finite beings, we may never understand why some things happen. God does not cause (or predestine) evil things to happen. The Bible says (James ch. 1) that not only can God not be tempted, but He also does not tempt anyone, which means he does not make people do evil things. God foreknew Adam would fall, but He did not predestine (cause) it. He did not tempt Adam, and He did not tempt Satan to tempt Eve, as He does not tempt anyone with evil. But yes, He knew it would happen. Foreknowing something is not predestination any more than a supposed psychic person foreseeing a plane crash actually causes the crash to happen themselves.

Although God is sovereign, He chose to give us free will. We can choose what we do. We can accept Him or not. Even when I was lost, there were bad things I chose not to do that I was tempted with. We can choose Burger King or McDonald's, to go to work or stay home. We have complete free will. God does have a plan, and He does lead us, but we can choose to follow or not. Here is some food for thought...scripture says, in the New Testament, that no one can come to Him unless they are called to Him (by the Holy Spirit). That somehow comes into play with all this predestination talk as well. We are not merely robots, though, or following some script. God has a plan, that plan is being executed, but we have free will to do our part or not. Several verses talk about us choosing to believe or have faith. Choosing to believe does not make us sovereign or take away God's sovereignty. It is merely exercising the free will that He gave us. Us having free will is part of His plan, and we only have it because He is sovereign and gave it to us. He wants us to love and choose Him of our own free will, not because we have no choice or because he makes us. There is an old saying that I am sure we have all heard before. It says that if you love something, set it free. If it returns to you, of it's own free will, then it really loves you. If it doesn't return, then it doesn't really love you. That kind of helps shed light on God's reason for giving us free will. He wants us to desire to be with Him.

I did not hit a lot on how predestination fits in with the free will thing, but because both are talked about in scripture, they are both valid and both completely fit together without contradicting one another. I avoid going the Calvanistic route personally, because it appears to be wholly a doctrine of predestination. The opposite of that, in my opinion, would logically be chaos. The way I believe in free will relies heavily on the sovereignty of God mixed with His complete love for us and His desire for us to freely love Him. Not chaos with God sitting back watching everything hoping we somehow get it right. If God leads me to witness to you and I refuse, He is perfectly capable of leading a more willing, Spirit-led person to do it... or to have a whale spit me out on your doorstep after I've had a few days to meditate on it, lolol.

But that's just my take on it.....

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:01 PM
So by your logic Dave man chooses his own salvation and has no need for the cross. This makes it a work of the flesh and Galatians clearly rejects this. It cannot be mans flesh that makes the choice it must be the Spirit of God that draws them via His grace. Not by works lest any man boast. You sir are boasting in your ability to choose salvation. One cannot be saved by anything less than Gods pure grace to choose you for salvation. SO you scriptures here are out of context and make it seems like man is sovereign and not God.
No...by my Logic, Man chooses to allow Christ to save him. The ability to Save belongs to Christ...the option for eligability to be saved is purely a matter of Human Choice. Anyone at anytime can become elligable for Eternal Life. All they need to do is truely Accept Christ...he takes care of all the rest :)

I'm not boasting. I'm telling you what GOD says..is "I Choose, you decide" He presents you with a choice of two options...you choose which option you want.

You can choose Life. You can Choose Death. If you choose the former, He will save you. If you choose the latter, He will condemn you. Its not Rocket Science.

People always think there has to be something more to it then a free offer :rolleyes:

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:17 PM
1) That part of the bible is where God tells people that cast out demons in his name and healed the sick that he never knew them. Believing the Jesus is real is not enough. Heck Satan and every demon believe and know that Jesus is real, they know the bible better than you or I could ever hope to and yet they are still going to hell, and yet they too like humans are creature that have God's love. The interpretation of this passage hinges not on the expression, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'" but on the expression, "He who does the will of My Father."

Jesus did not say that no one who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. He said, rather, that not all who say that will enter.

2) you still misunderstand that it is not about Love, God loves man, always has and always will. This is about justice and mercy. WHat you eed to realise and understand is that God is HOLY. When we get our heads round what that really means we then need to get our head around the fact that God is righteous.


3) As a result of that people that are guilty can not stand before God, and so all deserve to perish, there is no exceptions to that fact no one. And so the punishment must be fulfilled, and a price must be paid. Its not about love at all, as the price still has to be paid no matter how much someone is loved. And since God is just and judge, the penalty for sin is death, and that must be honoured, otherwise if God contradicts that pattern, then everything God stands for falls apart. That is why Jesus had to come in the first place to pay the price. But thats not to say that all people will be subject to the grace and mercy God has shown. But it is not about love or about worth, but that God is Holy and as a sovereign and Holy God a price must be paid and as people we do NOT deserve or have any right to those things, the only thing we have a right to is punishment. So if God choses to show mercy, then He holds the devine right to have mercy on whom he will have mercy.


1) well demons dont have faith, and dont repent. I meant that aswell...not just acknowledgement that Christ exists or who he is supposed to be. :rolleyes:

2) No...it is about Love. A Just GOD didnt have to pay his own price. A Just GOD could have just lived with the condemnation of all after Adam. Ask yourself, what is the motivating force for Christ? WHY offer a Royal Pardon?? WHY offer it in the first place, if Justice means the execution of all?

The answer is...GOD is more then just a Holy Blob. More then just a machine who acts with divine right. He has Desires. It is not His Desire...so he says, that any of the wicked should perish. Why is it not His desire that Evil people should perish? Why does he want to restore a fallen creation?

Love. Its about as simple as that. He isnt just a far away Soverign arbitrator. He is someone who cares. He has a personality, he has likes, dislikes, things that please, things that enrage...and things that hurt. It is within our power to upset GOD, to cause Him pain. He is emotionally invested in us...His Name and Reputation is tied to us...and He wants us to Love Him.

I dont think Love can be Created...I think it has to be a reaction from that which is created....a Mirror of the Love for which GOD has for His creation which would actually seem quite...difficult bearing in mind his Nature. His True Nature would Wish us to Hell for our Sin...but his Heart wants to share Eternity with us. :)

3) Three weeks ago...a moon ago...I would have aggreed 100percent with that. I still acknowledge the principle, but I think the motivational force to almost go against his nature and try and find a way of redeeming a fallen creation whilst remain Holy...is actually a much more...important thing to note

I think it is about Worth. Given the ability to Save all...You dont throw half away if you Love them...unless it be their will. because then your Love would be unrequited anyway.

You can say one thing for certain. IF GOD Wills people to Hell, then there is no way he Loves those who he would chose to abandon in such a way. If GOD is forced to abandon people because of their own choice to not accept him, then be assured it is with the heaviest of hearts...and the lack of love their is purely on the Human part.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 09:19 PM
Thanks, guys. I will state my beliefs, but will preface it with this: I do not believe in predestination to the extent that the Calvinists do, however, I would rather be wrong in that regard and "waste" my time witnessing to people as much as I can than hold to those beliefs and be wrong, having the blood of all the people who only I could influence on my hands. Not that I don't believe God could send anyone else, or that the people I witness to will all respond positively to the message, mind you, but I think you get my point. Warriorlion, keep witnessing to your family and others, it is never in vain when you look at it like that.

The Greek word rendered "predestination" is only mentioned 6 times in scripture, while the passages referring to the free will of someone accepting the Gospel appear a multitude more times. Now, that does not refute predestination, because if it was only mentioned once in scripture then it has merit. I believe, however, that we need to take all the passages together. Many cults are formed by isolating scripture and not taking it in context or comparing it with the other scriptures about the same kind of thing (salvation and the sovereignty of God, in this case). We should take a more "hollistic" approach to scripture, rather than isolating things. Although it is comprised of many books written over thousands of years, the Bible is still really one book containing God's message to us, and no part of it contradicts another, but rather all the parts work together to give us that message.
Here is an example: One time someone told me that I was not really saved because I was not baptized strictly in the name of Jesus. I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. He quoted some scripture that backed up his claim. One was where people asked Peter "what must we do to be saved", and he told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. Another was a passage in 2 Peter where Peter used the example of Noah & the ark as a type of baptism, citing how it saves us (baptism, that is). This guy used valid scriptures, but he neglected the other scriptures in doing so that 1) show that salvation is by grace through faith 2) the Great Commission manner that Jesus says to baptize (Peter's instructions really agree with Jesus' if you think about it...afterall, Jesus IS the son) , and many other scriptures on salvation, baptism, etc. I was able to easily refute what he tried to tell me by quoting tons of verses, not just one or two like he did. That is just an example of placing more weight on one verse or a few verses, rather than the large body of scripture.

Now, back to predestination. Predestination is not foreknowledge (just knowing what is going to happen), but rather it is causing a certain outcome by ordering events. Based on what I read in scripture, God has a perfect will (ex. "He is not willing that any should perish"), and He also has a permissible will, as in He does allow certain things to happen...even evil things. God is sovereign and in control of everything, and nothing can happen that He either does not do or does not allow. Remember that before Satan could do anything to Job, he had to ask for God's permission. God cannot do anything evil, because He is perfect. He does however, allow some evil things to happen, and because we are finite beings, we may never understand why some things happen. God does not cause (or predestine) evil things to happen. The Bible says (James ch. 1) that not only can God not be tempted, but He also does not tempt anyone, which means he does not make people do evil things. God foreknew Adam would fall, but He did not predestine (cause) it. He did not tempt Adam, and He did not tempt Satan to tempt Eve, as He does not tempt anyone with evil. But yes, He knew it would happen. Foreknowing something is not predestination any more than a supposed psychic person foreseeing a plane crash actually causes the crash to happen themselves.

Although God is sovereign, He chose to give us free will. We can choose what we do. We can accept Him or not. Even when I was lost, there were bad things I chose not to do that I was tempted with. We can choose Burger King or McDonald's, to go to work or stay home. We have complete free will. God does have a plan, and He does lead us, but we can choose to follow or not. Here is some food for thought...scripture says, in the New Testament, that no one can come to Him unless they are called to Him (by the Holy Spirit). That somehow comes into play with all this predestination talk as well. We are not merely robots, though, or following some script. God has a plan, that plan is being executed, but we have free will to do our part or not. Several verses talk about us choosing to believe or have faith. Choosing to believe does not make us sovereign or take away God's sovereignty. It is merely exercising the free will that He gave us. Us having free will is part of His plan, and we only have it because He is sovereign and gave it to us. He wants us to love and choose Him of our own free will, not because we have no choice or because he makes us. There is an old saying that I am sure we have all heard before. It says that if you love something, set it free. If it returns to you, of it's own free will, then it really loves you. If it doesn't return, then it doesn't really love you. That kind of helps shed light on God's reason for giving us free will. He wants us to desire to be with Him.

I did not hit a lot on how predestination fits in with the free will thing, but because both are talked about in scripture, they are both valid and both completely fit together without contradicting one another. I avoid going the Calvanistic route personally, because it appears to be wholly a doctrine of predestination. The opposite of that, in my opinion, would logically be chaos. The way I believe in free will relies heavily on the sovereignty of God mixed with His complete love for us and His desire for us to freely love Him. Not chaos with God sitting back watching everything hoping we somehow get it right. If God leads me to witness to you and I refuse, He is perfectly capable of leading a more willing, Spirit-led person to do it... or to have a whale spit me out on your doorstep after I've had a few days to meditate on it, lolol.

But that's just my take on it.....

very well put arguement there.

i agree that free will and predestination are not contradictions. however would you say that your view supports the idea that our free will is restricted by that free will of God.

Also would you not agree that by permitting something to happen although not cauing it, since you know that though your permission am event will happen, that in a sence is preordination of the event. which in a sence makes it predestination

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:21 PM
:ninja: You have a point.

But I would say to you that, that point applies to converts...it doesnt really answer the question of, those who were brought up in the Faith.

Try to understand, that some of us have no "before" time. I've always been a Christian...there has never been a time when I truely did not believe, because my parents told me the truth from the very begining.

I understand your point relating to those who grow up in a heathen household...and suddenly convert. That is certainly FAR more compelling an argument for predestination to heaven/hell then any of those strange theologian philosophers.

The Question being thus "Does it take Revelation from GOD for people to realize they have to make a choice in the first place?" That way, some people would presumably never make the choice, not because they cant, but because they dont know of the option....and yet...the truth is out there in the public domain...its not like the truth is hidden....Isnt it in Proverbs that it says only a fool believes there is no GOD...based solely on Creation...one cant honnestly be stupid enough to believe in nothing...and again, all men search for something, to give themselves purpose and meaning...could those be the Revelations? only, those are free to all aswell.

The unfortunate thing you end up thinking is that most of GODs beloved Creation is just to stupid to make up its own mind. I think many would perfer GOD to make the choice for them...to somehow jump up behind them and push them into making the decision.

Could it not be then that God predestined you to believing parents and thus you grew up in faith?

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:22 PM
1) Well..I'm strictly talking about free will in terms of actively choosing Salvation. I am not saying that GOD doesnt work behind the scenes to coerce, I am not saying that once Saved GOD doesnt work actively in ones life. I was talking about the acceptance of Jesus Christ leading to Salvation...and that choice alone.

To be honnest...outside of that single choice...I dont care whether everything else is 100percent predetermined or not.

2) Again...I think GOD can set in motion events designed to bring people to Him....and he knows the results of that from the start...BUT I would still say that final decision is theres and theres alone. I dont think he forces anyone to choose to Love him...or else...noone truely loves him...because Love isnt something that can be forced like that.

3) Freewill is also central to the Bible...more so then Predestination I think...certainly more then predestination which covers anything more then foreknowledge that comes with an omnipotent GOD

Fair response. Then you share more in common with those who believe in predestination then you thought.

surveyorshawn
07-09-2009, 09:23 PM
I agree. Man can only choose BECAUSE OF the cross. Having that choice does not invalidate the cross. God bestowed His grace on us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, that we might choose, by the free will that He gave us, to place our faith in Him and receive eternal life. For it is by grace that we have been saved, through faith (who's faith? Our faith, the faith that we choose to put in Him), it (God's grace/salvation) is a gift from God, not by anything we ourselves have done.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:25 PM
No...by my Logic, Man chooses to allow Christ to save him. The ability to Save belongs to Christ...the option for eligability to be saved is purely a matter of Human Choice. Anyone at anytime can become elligable for Eternal Life. All they need to do is truely Accept Christ...he takes care of all the rest :)

I'm not boasting. I'm telling you what GOD says..is "I Choose, you decide" He presents you with a choice of two options...you choose which option you want.

You can choose Life. You can Choose Death. If you choose the former, He will save you. If you choose the latter, He will condemn you. Its not Rocket Science.

People always think there has to be something more to it then a free offer :rolleyes:

Again apart from the Spirit drawing you how can you ever make that choice? God must choose you before you can make that choice. Bible says no man can come unless the Spirit draws him

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:27 PM
Thanks, guys. I will state my beliefs, but will preface it with this: I do not believe in predestination to the extent that the Calvinists do, however, I would rather be wrong in that regard and "waste" my time witnessing to people as much as I can than hold to those beliefs and be wrong, having the blood of all the people who only I could influence on my hands. Not that I don't believe God could send anyone else, or that the people I witness to will all respond positively to the message, mind you, but I think you get my point. Warriorlion, keep witnessing to your family and others, it is never in vain when you look at it like that.

The Greek word rendered "predestination" is only mentioned 6 times in scripture, while the passages referring to the free will of someone accepting the Gospel appear a multitude more times. Now, that does not refute predestination, because if it was only mentioned once in scripture then it has merit. I believe, however, that we need to take all the passages together. Many cults are formed by isolating scripture and not taking it in context or comparing it with the other scriptures about the same kind of thing (salvation and the sovereignty of God, in this case). We should take a more "hollistic" approach to scripture, rather than isolating things. Although it is comprised of many books written over thousands of years, the Bible is still really one book containing God's message to us, and no part of it contradicts another, but rather all the parts work together to give us that message.
Here is an example: One time someone told me that I was not really saved because I was not baptized strictly in the name of Jesus. I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. He quoted some scripture that backed up his claim. One was where people asked Peter "what must we do to be saved", and he told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. Another was a passage in 2 Peter where Peter used the example of Noah & the ark as a type of baptism, citing how it saves us (baptism, that is). This guy used valid scriptures, but he neglected the other scriptures in doing so that 1) show that salvation is by grace through faith 2) the Great Commission manner that Jesus says to baptize (Peter's instructions really agree with Jesus' if you think about it...afterall, Jesus IS the son) , and many other scriptures on salvation, baptism, etc. I was able to easily refute what he tried to tell me by quoting tons of verses, not just one or two like he did. That is just an example of placing more weight on one verse or a few verses, rather than the large body of scripture.

Now, back to predestination. Predestination is not foreknowledge (just knowing what is going to happen), but rather it is causing a certain outcome by ordering events. Based on what I read in scripture, God has a perfect will (ex. "He is not willing that any should perish"), and He also has a permissible will, as in He does allow certain things to happen...even evil things. God is sovereign and in control of everything, and nothing can happen that He either does not do or does not allow. Remember that before Satan could do anything to Job, he had to ask for God's permission. God cannot do anything evil, because He is perfect. He does however, allow some evil things to happen, and because we are finite beings, we may never understand why some things happen. God does not cause (or predestine) evil things to happen. The Bible says (James ch. 1) that not only can God not be tempted, but He also does not tempt anyone, which means he does not make people do evil things. God foreknew Adam would fall, but He did not predestine (cause) it. He did not tempt Adam, and He did not tempt Satan to tempt Eve, as He does not tempt anyone with evil. But yes, He knew it would happen. Foreknowing something is not predestination any more than a supposed psychic person foreseeing a plane crash actually causes the crash to happen themselves.

Although God is sovereign, He chose to give us free will. We can choose what we do. We can accept Him or not. Even when I was lost, there were bad things I chose not to do that I was tempted with. We can choose Burger King or McDonald's, to go to work or stay home. We have complete free will. God does have a plan, and He does lead us, but we can choose to follow or not. Here is some food for thought...scripture says, in the New Testament, that no one can come to Him unless they are called to Him (by the Holy Spirit). That somehow comes into play with all this predestination talk as well. We are not merely robots, though, or following some script. God has a plan, that plan is being executed, but we have free will to do our part or not. Several verses talk about us choosing to believe or have faith. Choosing to believe does not make us sovereign or take away God's sovereignty. It is merely exercising the free will that He gave us. Us having free will is part of His plan, and we only have it because He is sovereign and gave it to us. He wants us to love and choose Him of our own free will, not because we have no choice or because he makes us. There is an old saying that I am sure we have all heard before. It says that if you love something, set it free. If it returns to you, of it's own free will, then it really loves you. If it doesn't return, then it doesn't really love you. That kind of helps shed light on God's reason for giving us free will. He wants us to desire to be with Him.

I did not hit a lot on how predestination fits in with the free will thing, but because both are talked about in scripture, they are both valid and both completely fit together without contradicting one another. I avoid going the Calvanistic route personally, because it appears to be wholly a doctrine of predestination. The opposite of that, in my opinion, would logically be chaos. The way I believe in free will relies heavily on the sovereignty of God mixed with His complete love for us and His desire for us to freely love Him. Not chaos with God sitting back watching everything hoping we somehow get it right. If God leads me to witness to you and I refuse, He is perfectly capable of leading a more willing, Spirit-led person to do it... or to have a whale spit me out on your doorstep after I've had a few days to meditate on it, lolol.

But that's just my take on it.....

I think I aggree with you...nigh on completely :w00t:

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:29 PM
Again apart from the Spirit drawing you how can you ever make that choice? God must choose you before you can make that choice. Bible says no man can come unless the Spirit draws him
How do you know that the emptiness inside everyone, and the witness of Creation, ISNT the Spirit drawing everyone?

If it were...then everyone would be able to make the choice...unless they were...really stupid...and yes, there are alot of really stupid people in that boat.

Again I ask you...what about those who have had no "conversion" point because they have been brought up Christian from the start??

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:32 PM
Could it not be then that God predestined you to believing parents and thus you grew up in faith?
:blink: The how do you explain those brought up in the Faith that then abandon it? What your saying is that the Parents act with the Spirt to draw...but sometimes that doesnt work.

GOD doesnt fail like that I dont think :laugh:

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:38 PM
I agree. Man can only choose BECAUSE OF the cross. Having that choice does not invalidate the cross. God bestowed His grace on us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, that we might choose, by the free will that He gave us, to place our faith in Him and receive eternal life. For it is by grace that we have been saved, through faith (who's faith? Our faith, the faith that we choose to put in Him), it (God's grace/salvation) is a gift from God, not by anything we ourselves have done.

Shawn who is the us in Christ died for US? Or the We in by faith we've been saved? I think you forget the bible was written to believers and not the unbeliever. Pauls letter were addressed to those who had faith. SO the US and the WE are those who have salvatoin and not the unrepentent sinner. As I said with Dave no man can come to Chrsit unless God draws them by His Spirit, thus meaning he choose them. Your point is the one many have made and for years I also had. But, after studying scripture in proper context (hermeuntics) I discoverd I was taking verses out of context kind of like the example you gave with those Jesus only people. Scripture revealed to me that I have nothing to do with it. It is all about Him and the cross and no ammount of my effort can save me this includes my choice. I have chosen Him because he first chose me. I would not have became a follower if God did not choose me and send His Spirit to convict me of my sin and draw me to repentance. This is why I have changed my views over the years. This is why John in 1 John Chapter 2 explains salvation in the terms he did. Your last statement is where is all stands "not by anything ourselves have done" This included making the choice to believe. No Spirit no real choice. This is why there are so many false converts and why the lord will say I never knew you even though they said did we not do this and that..

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 09:39 PM
2) No...it is about Love. A Just GOD didnt have to pay his own price. A Just GOD could have just lived with the condemnation of all after Adam. Ask yourself, what is the motivating force for Christ? WHY offer a Royal Pardon?? WHY offer it in the first place, if Justice means the execution of all?


The answer is...GOD is more then just a Holy Blob. More then just a machine who acts with divine right. He has Desires. It is not His Desire...so he says, that any of the wicked should perish. Why is it not His desire that Evil people should perish? Why does he want to restore a fallen creation?

Love. Its about as simple as that. He isnt just a far away Soverign arbitrator. He is someone who cares. He has a personality, he has likes, dislikes, things that please, things that enrage...and things that hurt. It is within our power to upset GOD, to cause Him pain. He is emotionally invested in us...His Name and Reputation is tied to us...and He wants us to Love Him.

I dont think Love can be Created...I think it has to be a reaction from that which is created....a Mirror of the Love for which GOD has for His creation which would actually seem quite...difficult bearing in mind his Nature. His True Nature would Wish us to Hell for our Sin...but his Heart wants to share Eternity with us. :)

3) Three weeks ago...a moon ago...I would have aggreed 100percent with that. I still acknowledge the principle, but I think the motivational force to almost go against his nature and try and find a way of redeeming a fallen creation whilst remain Holy...is actually a much more...important thing to note

I think it is about Worth. Given the ability to Save all...You dont throw half away if you Love them...unless it be their will. because then your Love would be unrequited anyway.

You can say one thing for certain. IF GOD Wills people to Hell, then there is no way he Loves those who he would chose to abandon in such a way. If GOD is forced to abandon people because of their own choice to not accept him, then be assured it is with the heaviest of hearts...and the lack of love their is purely on the Human part.

You are right to a point Dave, yes there is provision for pardon through Christ as a result of Love, God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, however its not that love which allows us to be saved, its grace and mercy.

If it was wholly love you face the question of does God then love some more than others??? Because the scriptures tell us that you spare the rod you spoil the child, I love my daugther more than my own life and yet for her sake I would punish her for wrong doing, the bible also tells us the the Lord disciplines those he loves, that would make it such that grace and mercy do not have a part to play as through love God is just and righteous and yes that means that all who have fallen short get punished.

Why then does God give a way out, thats where you need to look at the true meaning of grace. and the true meaning of mercy.
Mercy is a word used to describe compassion shown by one person to another, or a request from one person to another to be shown such leniency or unwarranted compassion for a crime or wrongdoing.
Definition: Mercy
Mercy
Noun
1. Leniency and compassion shown toward offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice; "he threw himself on the mercy of the court".

2. A disposition to be kind and forgiving; "in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband".

3. The feeling that motivates compassion.

4. Something for which to be thankful; "it was a mercy we got out alive".

5. Alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed; "distributing food and clothing to the flood victims was an act of mercy".

Mercy compassion for the miserable. Its object is misery. By the atoning sacrifice of Christ a way is open for the exercise of mercy towards the sons of men, in harmony with the demands of truth and righteousness (Gen. 19:19; Ex. 20:6; 34:6, 7; Ps. 85:10; 86:15, 16). In Christ mercy and truth meet together. Mercy is also a Christian grace (Matt. 5:7; 18:33-35).


Grace then

1. A state of sanctification by God.

2. Elegance and beauty of movement or expression.

3. A sense of propriety and consideration for others.

4. A disposition to kindness and compassion; benign good will: "the victor's grace in treating the vanquished".

5. (Greek mythology) one of three sisters who were the givers of beauty and charm; a favorite subject for sculptors.

6. A short prayer of thanks before a meal.

7. Free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God: "there but for the grace of God go I".

Grace (1.) Of form or person (Prov. 1:9; 3:22; Ps. 45:2). (2.) Favour, kindness, friendship (Gen. 6:8; 18:3; 19:19; 2 Tim. 1:9). (3.) God's forgiving mercy (Rom. 11:6; Eph. 2:5). (4.) The gospel as distinguished from the law (John 1:17; Rom. 6:14; 1 Pet. 5:12). (5.) Gifts freely bestowed by God; as miracles, prophecy, tongues (Rom. 15:15; 1 Cor. 15:10; Eph. 3:8). (6.) Christian virtues (2 Cor. 8:7; 2 Pet. 3:18). (7.) The glory hereafter to be revealed (1 Pet. 1:13).


the keys here:-

mercy the feeling that motivates compassion
grace the free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God

compassion then:-
A deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering.

2. The humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it.

coming from the root word that means literally a stirring of the bowls

from the meaning of the words yu can take love the root of compassion, the reason for you having compassion, but its not the whole of it. I agree that its out of the Love God has for humans that he is stirred into action in sending Christ, but it is mercy and grace that allows for us to be set free of the wages of sin. Not love, as has already been stated, God desire is that no man shall perish, yet he allows it to happen,

surveyorshawn
07-09-2009, 09:40 PM
very well put arguement there.

i agree that free will and predestination are not contradictions. however would you say that your view supports the idea that our free will is restricted by that free will of God.[QUOTE]
I wouldn't call it the free will of God as much as the sovereignty of God. He is in control. But He does not, even by His omnipotence and sovereignty, force us to believe in Him or have faith in Him. I believe that He knows what it takes for each person to receive Him, and who will and who won't, and that He acts accordingly, thus, here you and I are! Other than that, my free will is restricted by my own finite mortal nature. And yes, the will of God restricts my free will as well to whatever point He decides....or has predestined!! Lol

[QUOTE]Also would you not agree that by permitting something to happen although not cauing it, since you know that though your permission am event will happen, that in a sence is preordination of the event. which in a sence makes it predestination

Permitting something to happen is not preordination. Preordination means ordered before, or "organized" before, which requires concious effort. By its very nature it requires certain things to happen in order to produce an end result, and if those things do not happen naturally or by the free will of another, then whoever predestines it must cause those things to happen. God allowed Satan to test Job, but He did not cause him to or tempt him to. What if Satan had not decided to test Job? Then, in order for Job's "predestined" testing to occur, God would have had to force Satan to do it, or cause it Himself in some other way.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:41 PM
:blink: The how do you explain those brought up in the Faith that then abandon it? What your saying is that the Parents act with the Spirt to draw...but sometimes that doesnt work.

GOD doesnt fail like that I dont think :laugh:

1 John 2:19 says they were never saved to start with.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:42 PM
This is why there are so many false converts and why the lord will say I never knew you even though they said did we not do this and that..
How can you be sure that your not one of them

I mean...lets say your corect...how do you KNOW you have been ellected? dont forget those with false ellections will believe they have been ellected also...so...how do you Know? What Sign is there that someone is one of the ellect and not a false convert? what distinguishes them? how can we tell the difference?

By Faith? No because they are all adament

By Deeds? No because everyone falls short?

so by what?

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:44 PM
1 John 2:19 says they were never saved to start with.
so how do you know which are the real...and which are the fake converts then??

How do you know when the spirit has drawn...and when it only has appeared to draw??

How can you have it both ways??

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:45 PM
[QUOTE=warriorlion]very well put arguement there.

i agree that free will and predestination are not contradictions. however would you say that your view supports the idea that our free will is restricted by that free will of God.[QUOTE]
I wouldn't call it the free will of God as much as the sovereignty of God. He is in control. But He does not, even by His omnipotence and sovereignty, force us to believe in Him or have faith in Him. I believe that He knows what it takes for each person to receive Him, and who will and who won't, and that He acts accordingly, thus, here you and I are! Other than that, my free will is restricted by my own finite mortal nature. And yes, the will of God restricts my free will as well to whatever point He decides....or has predestined!! Lol



Permitting something to happen is not preordination. Preordination means ordered before, or "organized" before, which requires concious effort. By its very nature it requires certain things to happen in order to produce an end result, and if those things do not happen naturally or by the free will of another, then whoever predestines it must cause those things to happen. God allowed Satan to test Job, but He did not cause him to or tempt him to. What if Satan had not decided to test Job? Then, in order for Job's "predestined" testing to occur, God would have had to force Satan to do it, or cause it Himself in some other way.
I've tried to explain that to him before :unsure-1:

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:46 PM
How do you know that the emptiness inside everyone, and the witness of Creation, ISNT the Spirit drawing everyone?

If it were...then everyone would be able to make the choice...unless they were...really stupid...and yes, there are alot of really stupid people in that boat.

Again I ask you...what about those who have had no "conversion" point because they have been brought up Christian from the start??

Dave one is not born a Christian and until they come to the age of accountability they are covered but at a point the Spirit will draw them or He will not. Going to church or having beliving parents will not save anyone. It must be because the Spirit draws them and they are chosen of God. You can bring a child up in a vaccum and they will not be asured of heaven if they are not brought to the cross.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:48 PM
so how do you know which are the real...and which are the fake converts then??

How do you know when the spirit has drawn...and when it only has appeared to draw??

How can you have it both ways??

Read the rest of chapter 2 and you will know how you can tell the difference. Those who follow Christ obey His words etc etc. Read the rest of 2 and some of 3 and you will have your answer.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:48 PM
Dave one is not born a Christian and until they come to the age of accountability they are covered but at a point the Spirit will draw them or He will not. Going to church or having beliving parents will not save anyone. It must be because the Spirit draws them and they are chosen of God. You can bring a child up in a vaccum and they will not be asured of heaven if they are not brought to the cross.
your not answering my questions...and its really quite important for me to know your answers.

How do you KNOW?

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:50 PM
How can you be sure that your not one of them

I mean...lets say your corect...how do you KNOW you have been ellected? dont forget those with false ellections will believe they have been ellected also...so...how do you Know? What Sign is there that someone is one of the ellect and not a false convert? what distinguishes them? how can we tell the difference?

By Faith? No because they are all adament

By Deeds? No because everyone falls short?

so by what?

Because I made the choice to follow Christ and left my sinful nature at the cross. False converts give lip service and have a apprenece of Godliness but deny the power (the cross).

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Read the rest of chapter 2 and you will know how you can tell the difference. Those who follow Christ obey His words etc etc. Read the rest of 2 and some of 3 and you will have your answer.
Well ive seen people on here, who say they are christian, be really horrible and not obay Christ. Does that mean they are all False converts??

The truth is...you cant be sure can you Chris...thats the devistating thing...if you cant be sure about anyone else...how can you be sure about your own...beyond having faith? You cant.

Whereas with my style of theology...you can. You know that people who Love GOD, have been repentant, have Accepted Him, are, by definition of the choice to do the above, Saved by the power of Christ Crucified. :)

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:52 PM
your not answering my questions...and its really quite important for me to know your answers.

How do you KNOW?

I know because that is what Scripture says. My faith is in the cross and not on some hope i made the right choice.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:53 PM
Because I made the choice to follow Christ and left my sinful nature at the cross. False converts give lip service and have a apprenece of Godliness but deny the power (the cross).
How did you leave your sinful nature at the cross? and You cant have made a choice to follow Christ...if you believe in Ellection...because that means you were chosen...you had no choice. This is what I cant understand.

...but then...I dont understand a lot of things...and Christ thinks Children can grasp his Kingdom? sounds like you need a Phd in Divinity...incidently...I failed my Masters in Christian Spirituality...so count me out :sad:

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:55 PM
I know because that is what Scripture says. My faith is in the cross and not on some hope i made the right choice.
Its not a Hope...its a certainty. :) (Presuming that GOD keeps his promises...thats supposed to be a certainty also)

Chris F
07-09-2009, 09:55 PM
Well ive seen people on here, who say they are christian, be really horrible and not obay Christ. Does that mean they are all False converts??

The truth is...you cant be sure can you Chris...thats the devistating thing...if you cant be sure about anyone else...how can you be sure about your own...beyond having faith? You cant.

Whereas with my style of theology...you can. You know that people who Love GOD, have been repentant, have Accepted Him, are, by definition of the choice to do the above, Saved by the power of Christ Crucified. :)

1- If one does not follow God's Word they are not saved. That is covered as well in 1 John 2

2- I am very sure in my election, however let not forget Peter said we need to make our election sure!. My faith is in the Cross and not my human choices. I think I am more sure then you think I am. I know that I know because of His Spirit.

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 09:57 PM
1- If one does not follow God's Word they are not saved. That is covered as well in 1 John 2

2- I am very sure in my election, however let not forget Peter said we need to make our election sure!. My faith is in the Cross and not my human choices. I think I am more sure then you think I am. I know that I know because of His Spirit.
:mellow: So...you believe he makes humans for the purpose of going to Hell? do you really believe he still loves those particular Humans...or not :huh:

Chris F
07-09-2009, 10:01 PM
How did you leave your sinful nature at the cross? and You cant have made a choice to follow Christ...if you believe in Ellection...because that means you were chosen...you had no choice. This is what I cant understand.

...but then...I dont understand a lot of things...and Christ thinks Children can grasp his Kingdom? sounds like you need a Phd in Divinity...incidently...I failed my Masters in Christian Spirituality...so count me out :sad:

I do not understand it all either so do not feel bad. What is important is that we know it is the cross that saves us and not anything we do.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 10:04 PM
:mellow: So...you believe he makes humans for the purpose of going to Hell? do you really believe he still loves those particular Humans...or not :huh:

Not at all. His will is none shall perish that is why he sent His Son. The fact is people will reject Him and will ignore the Spirit's calling.

Crisco
07-09-2009, 10:05 PM
I do not understand it all either so do not feel bad. What is important is that we know it is the cross that saves us and not anything we do.

That doesn't make sense to me...

If it is the cross that saves us and nothing we do why do we need to obey his commandments? If acts do not play a role in salvation why do we cast away sin or try because we cannot.

If no one is sinless including the saved then why does being called change that?

I see it as a mixture of both. First comes the attempt and then the salvation.

No one removes all sin over night. NO ONE. So how does one justify saying that when someone is called they no longer sin?

Crisco
07-09-2009, 10:08 PM
It makes no sense that Peter would say make our election sure... If God truly intends how you say Chris then why would we need to sure up our election? It should be undeniable in the power of the election...

Is he saying that we need to cast away sin to assure our election if that is the case then doesn't election require acts?

I'm sorry if I sound stupid but I'm trying to grasp your reasoning.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 10:27 PM
Permitting something to happen is not preordination. Preordination means ordered before, or "organized" before, which requires concious effort.

By its very nature it requires certain things to happen in order to produce an end result, and if those things do not happen naturally or by the free will of another, then whoever predestines it must cause those things to happen. God allowed Satan to test Job, but He did not cause him to or tempt him to. What if Satan had not decided to test Job? Then, in order for Job's "predestined" testing to occur, God would have had to force Satan to do it, or cause it Himself in some other way.

You see I think this is where we differ

it fair to say that God would allow something such as evil and sin to occur because He knows that it will happen that there is no chance of it not happening, much with Satan testing Job, I dont believe that once he had his permission tat there was any chance that he would change his mond and therefore decide to not test Job, and so knowing this God permitted the testing. That factor by its very nature means that God allows something that would happen and therefore God did not have to intervine in anyway for the event to occur.

On the flip side of that with the benefit of omnipitence, since God is outside of time and therefore must be anle to see past present and future all at once, the question I would pose is would God in his sovereignty give permission to something that by chance would not occur. Since if he gave permission and it did not happen would that not equate to much the same as if he was to deny permission and it happened anyway- would that not then take away from God's authority and thus mean that he in fact would not be overeign at all, and thus putting into question all of God's words and promises, I think that it would, and as such since it is impossible that anything outside of God has authority unless it is God given, then by granting permission it is guarenteed to occur thus making it predestination or pre ordination

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 10:29 PM
That doesn't make sense to me...

If it is the cross that saves us and nothing we do why do we need to obey his commandments? If acts do not play a role in salvation why do we cast away sin or try because we cannot.

If no one is sinless including the saved then why does being called change that?

I see it as a mixture of both. First comes the attempt and then the salvation.

No one removes all sin over night. NO ONE. So how does one justify saying that when someone is called they no longer sin?

Its not that we can do nothing, but work alone can not save you, without the crss it matters not how much you do good or right, you are still going to hell, however the reason we obey hs commands is that faith without works is dead, but the works alone will do nothing to save you

surveyorshawn
07-09-2009, 10:31 PM
Shawn who is the us in Christ died for US? Or the We in by faith we've been saved? I think you forget the bible was written to believers and not the unbeliever. Pauls letter were addressed to those who had faith. SO the US and the WE are those who have salvatoin and not the unrepentent sinner. As I said with Dave no man can come to Chrsit unless God draws them by His Spirit, thus meaning he choose them. Your point is the one many have made and for years I also had. But, after studying scripture in proper context (hermeuntics) I discoverd I was taking verses out of context kind of like the example you gave with those Jesus only people. Scripture revealed to me that I have nothing to do with it. It is all about Him and the cross and no ammount of my effort can save me this includes my choice. I have chosen Him because he first chose me. I would not have became a follower if God did not choose me and send His Spirit to convict me of my sin and draw me to repentance. This is why I have changed my views over the years. This is why John in 1 John Chapter 2 explains salvation in the terms he did. Your last statement is where is all stands "not by anything ourselves have done" This included making the choice to believe. No Spirit no real choice. This is why there are so many false converts and why the lord will say I never knew you even though they said did we not do this and that..


Trust me, I have not forgotten who the Bible was written to. The epistles were written to Christians. There were no Christians until Christ died and was resurrected. Most of the Bible was written before that. I have stood in the pulpit preaching many, many times, and have studied theology and religion as my major (before engineering). The "US" is everyone. Yes, in this epistle Paul was writing to Christians, but it clearly says in many, many places in the New Testament that Christ died for everyone, thus I was not taking anything out of context, but was rather doing exactly what I said I would do earlier, which was taking the holistic approach to scripture in order to get the complete meaning. "For God so loved the WORLD..." John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

The WE is obviously those who have been saved. You are correct that no one can come unless they are called. Scripture says that no one seeks Him, also. Therefore, if anyone IS seeking Him, then it can only be because He called them. You and I are in agreement, Chris.

He chose me. It is because of what He did. However, when He called me, He gave me a choice. He gave me the opportunity to accept Him & His grace or not. I did not save myself. He offered to save me, and I accepted. If you are in a river drowning and I throw you a life ring, I choose to save you, it is nothing you did, but you still have to grab the ring and hold on. No matter how you look at it, the paper will still say that I saved you, not that you saved yourself by grabbing my life ring. You have a choice when the Holy Spirit calls you. You can choose eternal life, or you can say no. It is still God who saves. A choice is not a work. You had to make a choice at one time, when God called you, Chris. God saved you, not your choice. Repentance also factors in. If you do not repent, you are not saved. Yet repentance is not a work either, though works are evidence of it.

Crisco
07-09-2009, 10:35 PM
1- If one does not follow God's Word they are not saved. That is covered as well in 1 John 2

2- I am very sure in my election, however let not forget Peter said we need to make our election sure!. My faith is in the Cross and not my human choices. I think I am more sure then you think I am. I know that I know because of His Spirit.


Your human choices then effect your salvation... If your saved the option to sin does not go away. You must choose through will to please God to not sin. You do not lose free will upon salvation.

It's virtually impossible to live up to what john says because the simple act of being alive is a sin in itself.

This is where I believe the love of God comes in. By John's definition there is no way to be saved.

This is where God's love and judgement has to supercede his laws... That is the way I see it.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 10:36 PM
Your human choices then effect your salvation... If your saved the option to sin does not go away. You must choose through will to please God to not sin. You do not lose free will upon salvation.

It's virtually impossible to live up to what john says because the simple act of being alive is a sin in itself.

This is where I believe the love of God comes in. By John's definition there is no way to be saved.

This is where God's love and judgement has to supercede his laws... That is the way I see it.
thats where grace and mercy supercede his law which is judgement

Crisco
07-09-2009, 10:37 PM
You have a choice when the Holy Spirit calls you. You can choose eternal life, or you can say no. It is still God who saves. A choice is not a work. You had to make a choice at one time, when God called you, Chris. God saved you, not your choice. Repentance also factors in. If you do not repent, you are not saved. Yet repentance is not a work either, though works are evidence of it.

Well said.

Crisco
07-09-2009, 10:40 PM
thats where grace and mercy supercede his law which is judgement

So you agree then it is virtually impossible to live up to what John says is salvation.

A person is called by God's grace and mercy then given the choice to accept or not.

We are given the choice to answer the call not so much the choice to be called.

Johns outline of salvation doesn't stand because of the existance of Grace and Mercy from belief and faith in Jesus Christ. To argue that it can stand is tough because then that means no one has ever been saved before.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 10:48 PM
That doesn't make sense to me...

If it is the cross that saves us and nothing we do why do we need to obey his commandments? If acts do not play a role in salvation why do we cast away sin or try because we cannot.

If no one is sinless including the saved then why does being called change that?

I see it as a mixture of both. First comes the attempt and then the salvation.

No one removes all sin over night. NO ONE. So how does one justify saying that when someone is called they no longer sin?

If a choice was what saved us then every book in the bible would make that the focus. Instead every book is about the cross. Paul said I know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. The very fact that mans choice is a part of the factor makes it more than grace. It really is not that complicated at all. Grace is given to all but few every take it. Many are called few are Chosen!!!! We follow his commandment because we are saved not to get saved. Faith produces works James said faith w/o works is dead. Works will never produce faith.

The easier way to look at it is how we appear to God. None are sinless but we can appear to God as such if we are called to the cross. Then we are Justified. If we make it about man then we are relying on ourselves and human understanding for salvation and not grace.

It is a mixture of both. God chooses the spirit draws man then makes the choice. I f God does not draw then no man can come to Him.

I agree no one is perfect but we are called to repentance and that means we turn from the sin and keep doing it then make excuses. Thus the reason why those who continue to live in their adultery, homosexuality, lying, stealing etc w/o repenting they will not inherit the kingdom thus they were never saved to start with. Being called just means you have the choice. The confusion is people think God has some sort of lottery that he calls some to heaven and some to hell. That fact is he already knows who will and will not accept that calling and thus they are chosen.

Crisco
07-09-2009, 10:53 PM
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus Christ IS salvation

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Again belief alone saves us from condemnation. When you are a true believerbreaking the commandments becomes much more difficult , however, not impossible hence the need for grace.

warriorlion
07-09-2009, 11:01 PM
A person is called by God's grace and mercy then given the choice to accept or not.

We are given the choice to answer the call not so much the choice to be called.[QOUTE}I agree that we are given the chnge to respond to God's call yes. although, predestination seems to suggest otherwise. but not sold on that




[QUOTE=Crisco}
Johns outline of salvation doesn't stand because of the existance of Grace and Mercy from belief and faith in Jesus Christ. To argue that it can stand is tough because then that means no one has ever been saved before.

except by gace and mercy.

I think the point tat John is makin is not so much that none are saved, as hebrew points out the old testament heroes that had faith granted to them as righteousness, which in essence suggests that they are indeed with God. Yet they had no Chrit to grant salvation. So God in his mercy could only have pardoned them from hell.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 11:01 PM
It makes no sense that Peter would say make our election sure... If God truly intends how you say Chris then why would we need to sure up our election? It should be undeniable in the power of the election...

Is he saying that we need to cast away sin to assure our election if that is the case then doesn't election require acts?

I'm sorry if I sound stupid but I'm trying to grasp your reasoning.

The term elect is a sticky one. But in the NT context it means "called out ones" Those chosen for salvation Rom 8:33, Col 3:12, and 2 Tim 2:10.

The other sticky term is foreknowledge which in Greek also means foreordained so inspite of what we have all argued does mean predestined.

So look at 2 Peter 1:5-11.What is the point of all that? God knows who his elect are (foreknowledge) however Peter wants his readers to have assurance (as Dave asking me how do I know) So he gives a list and then summarizes that list in be diligent to make your call and election secure. Notice call and election are two events separated by a definite article. One may be called but not elected. When Peter wrote this he was about to be martyred so he may have been himself struggling with assurance. see 1 Peter 1:1-5 and Romans 8:31-39 for more biblical support.

2- The acts you refer to is not what gets you salvation. That was what Paul was addressing. However you will have acts if you are saved as James says in his epistle.

3- Do not feel or call yourself stupid. This is all very deep and heavy stuff. Just hold onto the simple things of thew gospel such as Jesus Chrsit and Him crucified. That's all that is really important.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 11:06 PM
Trust me, I have not forgotten who the Bible was written to. The epistles were written to Christians. There were no Christians until Christ died and was resurrected. Most of the Bible was written before that. I have stood in the pulpit preaching many, many times, and have studied theology and religion as my major (before engineering). The "US" is everyone. Yes, in this epistle Paul was writing to Christians, but it clearly says in many, many places in the New Testament that Christ died for everyone, thus I was not taking anything out of context, but was rather doing exactly what I said I would do earlier, which was taking the holistic approach to scripture in order to get the complete meaning. "For God so loved the WORLD..." John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

The WE is obviously those who have been saved. You are correct that no one can come unless they are called. Scripture says that no one seeks Him, also. Therefore, if anyone IS seeking Him, then it can only be because He called them. You and I are in agreement, Chris.

He chose me. It is because of what He did. However, when He called me, He gave me a choice. He gave me the opportunity to accept Him & His grace or not. I did not save myself. He offered to save me, and I accepted. If you are in a river drowning and I throw you a life ring, I choose to save you, it is nothing you did, but you still have to grab the ring and hold on. No matter how you look at it, the paper will still say that I saved you, not that you saved yourself by grabbing my life ring. You have a choice when the Holy Spirit calls you. You can choose eternal life, or you can say no. It is still God who saves. A choice is not a work. You had to make a choice at one time, when God called you, Chris. God saved you, not your choice. Repentance also factors in. If you do not repent, you are not saved. Yet repentance is not a work either, though works are evidence of it.

So you can say with confidence you can read Paul's mind? Not sure where you studied Hermeneutics but that is not possible. We can make application but the letters in reference the US and WE are clearly believers and to say otherwise is poor hermeneutics.

I agree Chrsit died for all, and as you said the epistles were to us the gospels were for those w/o knowledge of Christ because the apostles were dying off. So when we talk about who Christ dies for you would be right in saying the gospels say he did so for all. But not all will be chosen. Many are called few are chosen.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 11:09 PM
Your human choices then effect your salvation... If your saved the option to sin does not go away. You must choose through will to please God to not sin. You do not lose free will upon salvation.

It's virtually impossible to live up to what john says because the simple act of being alive is a sin in itself.

This is where I believe the love of God comes in. By John's definition there is no way to be saved.

This is where God's love and judgement has to supercede his laws... That is the way I see it.

Warriorlion done answered it for me. We can choose to live in sin and if we do we are not saved. What we do as followers is realize we have violated God's law and repent. We cannot continue to live in sin and think God will just forget you refused to repent. Bible is clear you must choose the narrow gate. Not the wide easy path.

Chris F
07-09-2009, 11:13 PM
Therefore, if anyone IS seeking Him, then it can only be because He called them. You and I are in agreement, Chris.

He chose me. It is because of what He did. However, when He called me, He gave me a choice. He gave me the opportunity to accept Him & His grace or not. I did not save myself. He offered to save me, and I accepted. If you are in a river drowning and I throw you a life ring, I choose to save you, it is nothing you did, but you still have to grab the ring and hold on. No matter how you look at it, the paper will still say that I saved you, not that you saved yourself by grabbing my life ring. You have a choice when the Holy Spirit calls you. You can choose eternal life, or you can say no. It is still God who saves. A choice is not a work. You had to make a choice at one time, when God called you, Chris. God saved you, not your choice. Repentance also factors in. If you do not repent, you are not saved. Yet repentance is not a work either, though works are evidence of it.

I think we agree a lot more than you think. You sorta contradict yourself when you say no one comes unless God draws them then later you say you make the choice. So is it God alone or does man's capacity to underastand also needed for salvation?

Chris F
07-09-2009, 11:16 PM
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus Christ IS salvation

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Again belief alone saves us from condemnation. When you are a true believerbreaking the commandments becomes much more difficult , however, not impossible hence the need for grace.

So Crisco then Satan is saved the demons are saved and the Muslims are also saved because they all belive in Jesus Christ. Hitler believed in Jesus. So do many people who live in open and blatant sin are they saved because they believe? This view cheapens grace

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 11:42 PM
Not at all. His will is none shall perish that is why he sent His Son. The fact is people will reject Him and will ignore the Spirit's calling.
???

its out of the peoples hands...dont you follow...the Spirit makes them hear or makes them ignore...

Under Predestination...noone rejects Christ...they are either chosen or not.

I thought you believed in Divine Ellection?? but all of a sudden you have flipped to a freewill answer about salvation.

Divine Ellections thinks that Christ only died for the Ellect. I'm talking about wheather GOD loves the unellect...the people he made and then didnt choose...does he still love them??

Tyburn
07-09-2009, 11:44 PM
So Crisco then Satan is saved the demons are saved and the Muslims are also saved because they all belive in Jesus Christ. Hitler believed in Jesus. So do many people who live in open and blatant sin are they saved because they believe? This view cheapens grace
Well...Satan and the Demons are not Human...Christ only died for Human Creation. As for Hitler...well...I dont think he Believed in Christ. I think that was a little pretence dont you??

surveyorshawn
07-10-2009, 12:50 AM
I think we agree a lot more than you think. You sorta contradict yourself when you say no one comes unless God draws them then later you say you make the choice. So is it God alone or does man's capacity to underastand also needed for salvation?

There is no contradiction. God draws us, giving us the opportunity to make a choice. How is that possibly contradictory? God draws many, but not all of the get saved. Remember, many are called, but few are chosen. If God does not call you, then you cannot choose to follow Him. But just because He calls you does not mean you will follow Him.

Chris F
07-10-2009, 01:07 AM
???

its out of the peoples hands...dont you follow...the Spirit makes them hear or makes them ignore... Exactly it is not up to man

Under Predestination...noone rejects Christ...they are either chosen or not.According to who? That is your understanding of the teaching but thatis not what the bible says. If that were the case there would be no need to evagelize.

I thought you believed in Divine Ellection?? but all of a sudden you have flipped to a freewill answer about salvation.I am not a Calvinist and do not subscribe to most of the TULIP. I believe in free will to accept or reject. But God still chooses who his spirit draws to him. It is Gods choice not ours.

Divine Ellections thinks that Christ only died for the Ellect. I'm talking about wheather GOD loves the unellect...the people he made and then didnt choose...does he still love them??Christ died for all. But not everyone will be saved.

My response is in red above

Chris F
07-10-2009, 01:09 AM
Well...Satan and the Demons are not Human...Christ only died for Human Creation. As for Hitler...well...I dont think he Believed in Christ. I think that was a little pretence dont you??

Hitler attended church faithfully. His journals are full of prayers and request of God. He had Christian advisors. He belived God told him to exterminate the unbelievers like the jews. So no I think in his mind he believed and was a follower.

surveyorshawn
07-10-2009, 01:09 AM
So you can say with confidence you can read Paul's mind? Not sure where you studied Hermeneutics but that is not possible. We can make application but the letters in reference the US and WE are clearly believers and to say otherwise is poor hermeneutics.

I agree Chrsit died for all, and as you said the epistles were to us the gospels were for those w/o knowledge of Christ because the apostles were dying off. So when we talk about who Christ dies for you would be right in saying the gospels say he did so for all. But not all will be chosen. Many are called few are chosen.
This is the kind of stuff I was referring to when I talked about not arguing, etc, but treating each other Christ-like and having a respectful loving conversation and exchange of ideas. It was most certainly an insult that I attempted to "read Paul's mind", and you will not find even one place where I made any similar comment to you in anything I have written. I treat everyone with respect, whether I agree with them and what they have to say or not, and I would appreciate the same in return. Where did I attempt to read Paul's mind? The only thing I said specifically about Paul was agreeing with you that he wrote this particular epistle to Christians. I never claimed to study Hermeneutics, either. I said I studied Theology and Religion, and that I have preached many times. In what you said earlier, you seemed to imply (whether it is what you meant or not) that Christ only died for the elect, and I made a general statement (and backed it up) that He died for all. I can certainly agree to agree or disagree with you, but let's please treat one another respectfully and Christ-like.

Chris F
07-10-2009, 01:10 AM
There is no contradiction. God draws us, giving us the opportunity to make a choice. How is that possibly contradictory? God draws many, but not all of the get saved. Remember, many are called, but few are chosen. If God does not call you, then you cannot choose to follow Him. But just because He calls you does not mean you will follow Him.

I agree fully. This is what predestination means. I think you are mixing up unconditional election with irresistible grace.

Chris F
07-10-2009, 01:17 AM
This is the kind of stuff I was referring to when I talked about not arguing, etc, but treating each other Christ-like and having a respectful loving conversation and exchange of ideas. It was most certainly an insult that I attempted to "read Paul's mind", and you will not find even one place where I made any similar comment to you in anything I have written. I treat everyone with respect, whether I agree with them and what they have to say or not, and I would appreciate the same in return. Where did I attempt to read Paul's mind? The only thing I said specifically about Paul was agreeing with you that he wrote this particular epistle to Christians. I never claimed to study Hermeneutics, either. I said I studied Theology and Religion, and that I have preached many times. In what you said earlier, you seemed to imply (whether it is what you meant or not) that Christ only died for the elect, and I made a general statement (and backed it up) that He died for all. I can certainly agree to agree or disagree with you, but let's please treat one another respectfully and Christ-like.

You see that is the problem with cyberspace you can't tell what a person really means. You completely misread my intentions. I can't tell you how to feel but I can tell you you are wrong in how you feel as it pertains to what I said. I did not do any of those things you listed. That is only your perception of what I said. I do not sugar coat a thing so many people misunderstand my bluntness so I am sure it will happen again. Just know I do not mean a thing about it.

As for saying Chrsit died only for the elect I did not mean for you to think i said that. Christ died for the "whosoever" But not all will be saved.

surveyorshawn
07-10-2009, 01:22 AM
Hitler attended church faithfully. His journals are full of prayers and request of God. He had Christian advisors. He belived God told him to exterminate the unbelievers like the jews. So no I think in his mind he believed and was a follower.

I don't know personally, of course, but from all that I have read Hitler claimed to be a Christian and believed in Jesus; that he was sinless, born of a virgin, dies for our sins, rose again on the 3rd day, etc. Obviously he only had a mental belief, never repented, and was not born again (2 Cor. 5:17).

Chris F
07-10-2009, 02:17 AM
I don't know personally, of course, but from all that I have read Hitler claimed to be a Christian and believed in Jesus; that he was sinless, born of a virgin, dies for our sins, rose again on the 3rd day, etc. Obviously he only had a mental belief, never repented, and was not born again (2 Cor. 5:17).

Exactly!! This is why mere belief is not what saves a person

surveyorshawn
07-10-2009, 02:26 AM
I agree fully. This is what predestination means. I think you are mixing up unconditional election with irresistible grace.

I'm not mixing anything up, Chris. Predestination means that some people were born to be saved, and some people were not, and that God made them to be that way, and planned it from the beginning, not that God draws us, giving us the opportunity to make a choice. With predestination, we have no choice, we are either in or out before we are even born. That is from the dictionary definition of the word. And that is also the question that Warriorlion asked us to respond in regard to...if certain people were created to be saved and certain ones were created to go to hell.
This is the definition from online dictionaries:
pre⋅des⋅ti⋅na⋅tion a. the action of God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass.
b. the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation.
c. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
d. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
e. The purpose of Good from eternity respecting all events; especially, the preordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery.

predestination
c.1340, "the action of God in foreordaining certain of mankind through grace to salvation or eternal life," from L.L. prædestinationem (nom. prædestinatio) "a determining beforehand," from prædestinatus, pp. of prædestinare "appoint or determine beforehand," from L. præ- "before" + destinare "appoint, determine" (see destiny). First used in theological sense by Augustine, popularized by Calvin.

surveyorshawn
07-10-2009, 02:37 AM
Exactly!! This is why mere belief is not what saves a person

Absolutely!! The doctrine of easy believism that is being spread now is incredibly dangerous, and, unfortunately, incredibly prevalent. Whatever happened to repentance, being born again, and regeneration. One of my favorite verses is 2 Corinthians 5:17. It is a litmus test for salvation.

Chris F
07-10-2009, 03:36 AM
I'm not mixing anything up, Chris. Predestination means that some people were born to be saved, and some people were not, and that God made them to be that way, and planned it from the beginning, not that God draws us, giving us the opportunity to make a choice. With predestination, we have no choice, we are either in or out before we are even born. That is from the dictionary definition of the word. And that is also the question that Warriorlion asked us to respond in regard to...if certain people were created to be saved and certain ones were created to go to hell.
This is the definition from online dictionaries:
pre⋅des⋅ti⋅na⋅tion a. the action of God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass.
b. the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation.
c. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
d. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
e. The purpose of Good from eternity respecting all events; especially, the preordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery.

predestination
c.1340, "the action of God in foreordaining certain of mankind through grace to salvation or eternal life," from L.L. prædestinationem (nom. prædestinatio) "a determining beforehand," from prædestinatus, pp. of prædestinare "appoint or determine beforehand," from L. præ- "before" + destinare "appoint, determine" (see destiny). First used in theological sense by Augustine, popularized by Calvin.

See there again lies the problem. Defining a biblical concept with a dictionary and not the bible. You can't define a theology by a snippet from an online dictionary. You must consider the biblical text as well as the writers of the theology. This is why people get confused. I hate when a preacher opens his statement with according to Webster.... Who cares what does the bible say. SO please show me in scripture where God said anyhting about create some to be saved and some to go to hell.

Basically I disagree with the theology that views predestination as rigid and says God would create some people to go to hell as was mentioned earlier. The complete other side of the argument is also wrong in that they think man's free will alone make the choice of salvation. That too is far fetched and gives the power to man. I (my opinion nothing more) is that the truth is probably some where in the middle. God knows and foreordains the world to achieve what he knows who will and will not be saved thus we as a people must share the gospel so that they have a chance to be drawn but the Spirit into a choice for salvation. So I am personally in the middle of Calvin and Wesley. To say man chooses his own destiny is to strip God of omnipotence, To say God elects a select few and the rest he created to go to hell makes God a liar. This is why I think the way I do.

Chris F
07-10-2009, 03:37 AM
Absolutely!! The doctrine of easy believism that is being spread now is incredibly dangerous, and, unfortunately, incredibly prevalent. Whatever happened to repentance, being born again, and regeneration. One of my favorite verses is 2 Corinthians 5:17. It is a litmus test for salvation.

I am sure we agree more than we disagree on much! :)

Maglorius
07-10-2009, 06:53 AM
He chose me. It is because of what He did. However, when He called me, He gave me a choice. He gave me the opportunity to accept Him & His grace or not. I did not save myself. He offered to save me, and I accepted. If you are in a river drowning and I throw you a life ring, I choose to save you, it is nothing you did, but you still have to grab the ring and hold on. No matter how you look at it, the paper will still say that I saved you, not that you saved yourself by grabbing my life ring. You have a choice when the Holy Spirit calls you. You can choose eternal life, or you can say no. It is still God who saves. A choice is not a work. You had to make a choice at one time, when God called you, Chris. God saved you, not your choice. Repentance also factors in. If you do not repent, you are not saved. Yet repentance is not a work either, though works are evidence of it.

That is the same illustration as a sick man in bed and that God holds the spoon up to his lips with the medicine that will save him and all that man needs to do is open his lips and accept the medicine. Although Paul talks about man as being spiritually dead, not ill or wounded but dead. When you read Pauls description of mans spirit I get the feeling that man doesn't even know to grab the life line or take the spoon because he cannot. This is where I see our freewill being limited to our condition of being spiritually dead. Dead things don't make choices.

surveyorshawn
07-10-2009, 12:31 PM
See there again lies the problem. Defining a biblical concept with a dictionary and not the bible. You can't define a theology by a snippet from an online dictionary. You must consider the biblical text as well as the writers of the theology. This is why people get confused. I hate when a preacher opens his statement with according to Webster.... Who cares what does the bible say. SO please show me in scripture where God said anyhting about create some to be saved and some to go to hell.

Basically I disagree with the theology that views predestination as rigid and says God would create some people to go to hell as was mentioned earlier. The complete other side of the argument is also wrong in that they think man's free will alone make the choice of salvation. That too is far fetched and gives the power to man. I (my opinion nothing more) is that the truth is probably some where in the middle. God knows and foreordains the world to achieve what he knows who will and will not be saved thus we as a people must share the gospel so that they have a chance to be drawn but the Spirit into a choice for salvation. So I am personally in the middle of Calvin and Wesley. To say man chooses his own destiny is to strip God of omnipotence, To say God elects a select few and the rest he created to go to hell makes God a liar. This is why I think the way I do.

Chris, somehow you are continually misunderstanding what I am saying, and honestly it is getting pretty frustrating. Where did I ever say even once that the Bible supports that view of predestination? I NEVER did. If you read my posts on this thread, you will easily see where I heave repeatedly said that I DO NOT support the view that God created some people to go to heaven and some to go to hell. I merely defined the word "predestination" in my post that you are referring to. I used both the dictionary definition (it is an English word, and therefore can be defined in an English dictionary), and summaries from Calvin & St. Augustine, who are considered the fathers of the predestination movement that Warriorlion was asking questions about when he started this thread.

I defined the word "predestination" for the following reason only:

In my post (#121), I said "God draws us, giving us the opportunity to make a choice... God draws many, but not all of the get saved. Remember, many are called, but few are chosen. If God does not call you, then you cannot choose to follow Him. But just because He calls you does not mean you will follow Him."

Then you responded in post #125 "I agree fully. This is what predestination means. I think you are mixing up unconditional election with irresistible grace."

I defined predestination because my post #121, which you said is what predestination means, is NOT what predestination means, so I saw fit to post the actual definition of the word "predestination." Predestination does not allow for the "choice" which I described. To reiterate, that definition of predestination where some are born to go to heaven and some are born to go to hell is NOT what I support, and the Bible does not support it either. We seem to agree, but please read all my posts and keep what I am saying in mind BEFORE you respond, man.

Back to the original subject, Warriorlion asked that we give our perspectives on the doctrine of predestination as related by Martin Luther and John Calvin, which is what I did, and you did as well. Since I made my comments on it, and people had the opportunity to read them, understand them, and respond, whether in agreement or not, my job on this thread is done. I fulfilled Warriorlion's request of us for my part. If anyone still doesn't understand where I stand on the issue, PM me and we can email or IM about it. Other than that, I am done arguing back and forth beyond the scope of what the thread starter requested. God bless!!!

Tyburn
07-10-2009, 12:52 PM
That is the same illustration as a sick man in bed and that God holds the spoon up to his lips with the medicine that will save him and all that man needs to do is open his lips and accept the medicine. Although Paul talks about man as being spiritually dead, not ill or wounded but dead. When you read Pauls description of mans spirit I get the feeling that man doesn't even know to grab the life line or take the spoon because he cannot. This is where I see our freewill being limited to our condition of being spiritually dead. Dead things don't make choices.
Dead things can not sin. Clearly we sin.

I think that Paul is trying to make the point that GOD saves...GOD alone has the power to Save...but GOD WONT save without our Permission.

We cant save ourselves...but we can allow GOD to Save us. :)

Tyburn
07-10-2009, 01:09 PM
My response is in red above
If you have no power to Aceept, you have no Power to Reject. Thats just basic logic.

You cant have it both ways Chris. Either you have the choice and power to make the decision. Or you are forced into a decision (or not making that decision)

You cant Force someone to Love you. GOD wants his people to Love Him. You tell me which of the above, logically, he must use in order to achieve that?

You contradict yourself, to get away from having to answer the obvious Question. What is GODs views on those who he forces into Hell? why would he do such a thing? does He love them or not? Your in trouble because you know you have to say, GOD doesnt care about those he forces to Hell, because he's well within his rights to do that. He does it purely because He wants to, and so, No he doesnt love them.

But THAT would appear to be unbiblical. Thats the problem with this foolish theology...in the end you have to admit that GOD is as cruel to some as he is kind to others...and its not their personal fault, they own no responsibility...therefore GOD is actually ordaining, and making people for the sole sake of producing sin and ending up in Hell.

It doesnt matter how many degrees you or any theologian on the subject has. It doesnt matter what they do with words to change the meanings to solve a difficult puzzle...you can usually tell whether its a good philosophy by matching up the end results with the Bible...and Yours doesnt add up, it changes the nature of a loving GOD into one who actually doesnt love half his creation, and is ACTIVELY sending people to Hell, simply because he specifically designed them to live and to sin.

You go directly against Scripture...where he says that he doesnt desire the death or the wicked...and you say he actively creates and preordains people to live for the sole purpose of not being one of his ellect. Does that not make him out to be a Liar? Are you telling me that what he says in Ezekiel is a Lie?

If he doesnt desire someones death then you can bank on him giving them the opportunity to make the choice. Perhaps GOD DOES draw withHis spirit...but if he does that, then he does it to all. That is the only way around this.

I personally do not believe that GOD lies. If he says he doesnt Desire the death of the Wicked...then I dont believe he makes people for the purpose of being wicked. :blink: Your theology says that he does JUST that. Creats people, doesnt call them, doesnt allow them to choose, they sin because they were created in that fallen manner from birth, he decides they should face trial for that sin. The naturally end up in Hell, he doesnt love them for he despises sin. Yet it is His Fault they havent been given the chance to stop sinning...its only Their Fault if they have the ability to Choose.

Without Choice we are nothing more then Robots, we do exactly what GOD wills, Exactly when He Wills it...and We do not Love Him..we cant Love Him...we are simply no more then acting on duty. GOD doesnt want that.

I believe you...and more extreme views along the same line like TULIP to be not only totally wrong when applied to the Salvation issue...but when applied specifically to that Issue...they are unbiblical and a slurr on GODs true Character. I'm sure it wont send one who believes it to Hell...but it sure isnt as good a representation of GOD as a Human is capable of.

Crisco
07-10-2009, 01:29 PM
to just to throw it in there... I don't think a Christian would orchestrate the extermination of God's chosen people.

Just because you believe in Christ doesn't mean you really believe.

warriorlion
07-10-2009, 02:04 PM
Chris, somehow you are continually misunderstanding what I am saying, and honestly it is getting pretty frustrating. Where did I ever say even once that the Bible supports that view of predestination? I NEVER did. If you read my posts on this thread, you will easily see where I heave repeatedly said that I DO NOT support the view that God created some people to go to heaven and some to go to hell. I merely defined the word "predestination" in my post that you are referring to. I used both the dictionary definition (it is an English word, and therefore can be defined in an English dictionary), and summaries from Calvin & St. Augustine, who are considered the fathers of the predestination movement that Warriorlion was asking questions about when he started this thread.

I defined the word "predestination" for the following reason only:

In my post (#121), I said "God draws us, giving us the opportunity to make a choice... God draws many, but not all of the get saved. Remember, many are called, but few are chosen. If God does not call you, then you cannot choose to follow Him. But just because He calls you does not mean you will follow Him."

Then you responded in post #125 "I agree fully. This is what predestination means. I think you are mixing up unconditional election with irresistible grace."

I defined predestination because my post #121, which you said is what predestination means, is NOT what predestination means, so I saw fit to post the actual definition of the word "predestination." Predestination does not allow for the "choice" which I described. To reiterate, that definition of predestination where some are born to go to heaven and some are born to go to hell is NOT what I support, and the Bible does not support it either. We seem to agree, but please read all my posts and keep what I am saying in mind BEFORE you respond, man.

Back to the original subject, Warriorlion asked that we give our perspectives on the doctrine of predestination as related by Martin Luther and John Calvin, which is what I did, and you did as well. Since I made my comments on it, and people had the opportunity to read them, understand them, and respond, whether in agreement or not, my job on this thread is done. I fulfilled Warriorlion's request of us for my part. If anyone still doesn't understand where I stand on the issue, PM me and we can email or IM about it. Other than that, I am done arguing back and forth beyond the scope of what the thread starter requested. God bless!!!

please dont give up posting in this thread, I am interested in your view point and I'm not about arguing, just want t debate the issue to a satisfactory solution in my own mind.

Until recently I have stood irmly on the ground you are on, and several conversation have made me question why I beleve what I do, so I am looking at it, which is why I came here, seeking others views on the subject.

Just because you have stated your view, I dont believe that means that you are done here. I would hope that through discussion we can throw around the facts and adultly sort through whats truth, now I know that fundamentally its not important to my salvation, I am already saved, but I would like to know taht what I beleiev is based upon biblical truth, and I dont feel that thus far we have reached a difinative answer, yes you have stated your stand which I asked, but there are aspects that have as yet not been dealt with that I would like to hear your views on from your stand point.

This is not about arguing, its about discussion for me, and I am seeking knowledge, the bible tells me tat His people are destoyed through lack of knowledge, and I want to challenge what I beleve by looking at what people such as Calvin, Augustine etc believed.

So I ask again please do not abandon this thread as a result of some offense, your views and pinions are highly reguarded by the thread starter, if not by anyone else

surveyorshawn
07-10-2009, 02:15 PM
please dont give up posting in this thread, I am interested in your view point and I'm not about arguing, just want t debate the issue to a satisfactory solution in my own mind.

Until recently I have stood irmly on the ground you are on, and several conversation have made me question why I beleve what I do, so I am looking at it, which is why I came here, seeking others views on the subject.

Just because you have stated your view, I dont believe that means that you are done here. I would hope that through discussion we can throw around the facts and adultly sort through whats truth, now I know that fundamentally its not important to my salvation, I am already saved, but I would like to know taht what I beleiev is based upon biblical truth, and I dont feel that thus far we have reached a difinative answer, yes you have stated your stand which I asked, but there are aspects that have as yet not been dealt with that I would like to hear your views on from your stand point.

This is not about arguing, its about discussion for me, and I am seeking knowledge, the bible tells me tat His people are destoyed through lack of knowledge, and I want to challenge what I beleve by looking at what people such as Calvin, Augustine etc believed.

So I ask again please do not abandon this thread as a result of some offense, your views and pinions are highly reguarded by the thread starter, if not by anyone else

Thank you for that. I will post again, because of what you have just said. You are correct, you have not argued at all, and I appreciate that. I am about to go in the field to work today, as I have to get some work done before we go in the hospital for my son's surgery, but I will definitely post when I get back. You guys have a great day!

Tyburn
07-10-2009, 05:23 PM
to just to throw it in there... I don't think a Christian would orchestrate the extermination of God's chosen people.

Just because you believe in Christ doesn't mean you really believe.
There is another interesting thing.

Perhaps the word in the New Testament "ellect" doesnt mean pre-destined Ellection...perhaps it means on a par with those who really WERE Chosen. A way of saying that the masses who believe are on the same level as Israel?

Perhaps it is designed to show you just how sealing your response to the question is. Choose Life...and the outcome is as though you are amoung The Ellect of Israel?

In a Sense, there is Israel that was Ellected, and The Church, the New Israel, which decides...both are on the same level once saved. Standing (forgive the cliche) shoulder to shoulder :laugh:

Tyburn
07-10-2009, 05:46 PM
"When I view and consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained and established,
What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You care for him?" Psalm 8:3-4


:huh:

Maglorius
07-10-2009, 07:47 PM
I have come across a good sermon on predestination and specifically about Gods love. If you have the time it would be worth checking out. The sermon is by DA Carson.


http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/resources/a/Chosen-by-God-Romans-828-3091-29---part-1

Chris F
07-11-2009, 12:58 AM
to just to throw it in there... I don't think a Christian would orchestrate the extermination of God's chosen people.

Just because you believe in Christ doesn't mean you really believe.

Then you agree belief is subjective and thus cannot be the basis for faith in the cross. Thta is the point. As humans we are incapable of making that choice w/o Gods leading.

Chris F
07-11-2009, 01:07 AM
Chris, somehow you are continually misunderstanding what I am saying, and honestly it is getting pretty frustrating. Where did I ever say even once that the Bible supports that view of predestination? I NEVER did. If you read my posts on this thread, you will easily see where I heave repeatedly said that I DO NOT support the view that God created some people to go to heaven and some to go to hell. I merely defined the word "predestination" in my post that you are referring to. I used both the dictionary definition (it is an English word, and therefore can be defined in an English dictionary), and summaries from Calvin & St. Augustine, who are considered the fathers of the predestination movement that Warriorlion was asking questions about when he started this thread.

I defined the word "predestination" for the following reason only:

In my post (#121), I said "God draws us, giving us the opportunity to make a choice... God draws many, but not all of the get saved. Remember, many are called, but few are chosen. If God does not call you, then you cannot choose to follow Him. But just because He calls you does not mean you will follow Him."

Then you responded in post #125 "I agree fully. This is what predestination means. I think you are mixing up unconditional election with irresistible grace."

I defined predestination because my post #121, which you said is what predestination means, is NOT what predestination means, so I saw fit to post the actual definition of the word "predestination." Predestination does not allow for the "choice" which I described. To reiterate, that definition of predestination where some are born to go to heaven and some are born to go to hell is NOT what I support, and the Bible does not support it either. We seem to agree, but please read all my posts and keep what I am saying in mind BEFORE you respond, man.

Back to the original subject, Warriorlion asked that we give our perspectives on the doctrine of predestination as related by Martin Luther and John Calvin, which is what I did, and you did as well. Since I made my comments on it, and people had the opportunity to read them, understand them, and respond, whether in agreement or not, my job on this thread is done. I fulfilled Warriorlion's request of us for my part. If anyone still doesn't understand where I stand on the issue, PM me and we can email or IM about it. Other than that, I am done arguing back and forth beyond the scope of what the thread starter requested. God bless!!!

I enjoy your post as well. I understand what you believe clearly. I am just telling you you cannot define a theological term using an online dictionary. You must let scripture define it for you. As you mentioned the term is used on but a few times. In all of those it speaks to the saints being predestined by God. SO either it is a truth or scripture is a lie. that is all I am saying in regard to your post. Please do not consider this arguing. I f I did not challenge your idea and you mine then this would all be a huge waste of time for all. We learn when we discuss. Iron sharpen Iron does it not? When I teach in colleges I challenge all my students to challenge my lectures but they must do so with evidence and expect to be challenged back. That's not arguing that learning. I often take a view I do not believe just to spur discussion as I have done in this thread. I am Assembly of God and far from reformed in my theology. I just happen to have schooling in Theology and so I have studied this subject. I have had what I call a privilege to have a class under Dr RC Sproul the author of the book Warriorlion has quoted. I took the class to challenge my beliefs and to make my faith sure. So forgive me if you perceive that as argumentation. I can do that if you like but I much prefer we discuss in the civility we have enjoyed thus far.

Rev
07-11-2009, 03:10 AM
OK, OK, if I posted and said that I didnt know Christ, and wanted to become a Christian. What would you say to me?
"Hope you are one of the ellect", "don't worry about it, if your gonna be saved its gonna happen one way or another", or would you try and lead me to Salvation?

This is what really matters, we can all get upset(not that we are) and have our opinions, but are we willing to stand up and do the real work of Christians and carry out the great commission out of love for one another. We can try and figure out issues that are waaaaaaayy out of our field of understanding, and thats great to see people studying, but are we putting the same amount of focus on winning lost souls for Christ.

I'm not trying to stop the discussion, just reminding everyone that we are all on the same team.

Love Yall.
Rev. Dave E.

Chris F
07-11-2009, 03:26 AM
OK, OK, if I posted and said that I didnt know Christ, and wanted to become a Christian. What would you say to me?
"Hope you are one of the ellect", "don't worry about it, if your gonna be saved its gonna happen one way or another", or would you try and lead me to Salvation?

This is what really matters, we can all get upset(not that we are) and have our opinions, but are we willing to stand up and do the real work of Christians and carry out the great commission out of love for one another. We can try and figure out issues that are waaaaaaayy out of our field of understanding, and thats great to see people studying, but are we putting the same amount of focus on winning lost souls for Christ.

I'm not trying to stop the discussion, just reminding everyone that we are all on the same team.

Love Yall.
Rev. Dave E.

I would show you why you need Jesus and then if the Holy Spirit is drawing you then you'd be ready to be saved. What I would not do is say with all eyes closewd no one looking around if you want to be saved raise your head presto your saved.

surveyorshawn
07-11-2009, 03:33 AM
OK, OK, if I posted and said that I didnt know Christ, and wanted to become a Christian. What would you say to me?
"Hope you are one of the ellect", "don't worry about it, if your gonna be saved its gonna happen one way or another", or would you try and lead me to Salvation?

This is what really matters, we can all get upset(not that we are) and have our opinions, but are we willing to stand up and do the real work of Christians and carry out the great commission out of love for one another. We can try and figure out issues that are waaaaaaayy out of our field of understanding, and thats great to see people studying, but are we putting the same amount of focus on winning lost souls for Christ.

I'm not trying to stop the discussion, just reminding everyone that we are all on the same team.

Love Yall.
Rev. Dave E.
Well said, David. That pretty well sums up a previous post of mine on here. Much gets lost when we as humans try to over analyze and scientifically dissect everything. God is really deep, complex, and infinite, yet His message is simple enough that a child or a Forrest Gump can understand it and be saved. There is nothing wrong with in depth study, as you said, but, as you also said, let's not lose focus of what this is all really about!

Rev
07-11-2009, 03:44 AM
I would show you why you need Jesus and then if the Holy Spirit is drawing you then you'd be ready to be saved. What I would not do is say with all eyes closewd no one looking around if you want to be saved raise your head presto your saved.

LOL I love it!!!!!! Awesome!!!! I hate it when people do that!!:angry: :angry:

surveyorshawn
07-11-2009, 03:50 AM
Warriorlion, I would definitely encourage you to continue searching and questioning things, as scripture says, "rightly dividing the Word of Truth." But please don't get so caught up in theological rhetoric that you lose sight of the fact that this is about a relationship with God through Jesus, and spreading His love to others by living and sharing the Gospel. He died for all people in order to reconcile them to Him. Whether we are predestined to be His or not, we cannot possibly know who will be His and who won't, so the much more important thing is to live for God, get to really KNOW Him, and to spread the Gospel to others.
If you are wanting to grow in God and have not already done what I am about to suggest, then I would like to refer you to Hebrews 6:1-3, which basically lists what the author considers to be basic teachings of our faith, which should be the foundation of our knowledge in Him, and which should be thoroughly understood before going on to something as complex as the subject of this discussion. In fact, understanding them better should shed a ton of light on this subject and most other theological subjects as well. If you feel you already have that stuff down really well, then I guess just keep on bringing up the tough subjects!!:)

warriorlion
07-11-2009, 01:20 PM
Yeah I understand whats being said, and my research is not about sacrificing relationship with God, but in my view relationship is about spending time with a person and getting to know that person on an intimate level, for us as Christians I believe taht relationship is first and foremost the important thing, however, its not enough to rest on the fact that we know God, its enough for our salvation, yes but thats not what my life is about, I am not about being saved and thats it, the bible tells me to be ready to give an account at any time, and from experiece and from my own point of view before I was saved I would not give someone that could not give me an andswer to my questions the time of day.

I would not stand and listen to someone about their belief if they can not stand on what they believe with real answers, and I dont want to be that person, I will tell anyone that wants to know about God, and for years have been invilved in various outreaches.

For me personally I know I am called to be a Pastor, and my job is to be firm in what I believe and be ready to account for what I believe, and I am not one to stand on something just because, I want to be firm in what I believe and why I belive it and that, that belief stands up to what the bible teaches and what my relationship with God has revealed to me.

I am not focusing on knowledge alone.

There were two trees in the garden and I eat from the tree of Life (Jesus) but we cant ignore that the other tree was that of knowledge, especially since the bible says my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

Tyburn
07-11-2009, 03:36 PM
I am not focusing on knowledge alone.

There were two trees in the garden and I eat from the tree of Life (Jesus) but we cant ignore that the other tree was that of knowledge, especially since the bible says my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
I think you need to re-read that portion of Genesis.

We didnt eat from the Tree of Life, and The Tree of Life is not Jesus. We ate from The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil...not the Tree of Knowledge...The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Eating from that Tree is what distinguishes us from different animals. We are aware of self, aware of others, able to understand the concept of goodness and the concept of evil. That Tree could eaqually be named "Tree of Moral Discernment" sinse that is all it is.

The Humans were thrown out of Eden so they COULDNT Eat from the Tree of Life. Once you know the difference between Good and Evil, if you Eat from the Tree of Life you become just like a Member of the Trinity, and that was their fear. That is why Man was banned from the Garden, and that is why A Cherub was stationed to stop man from getting back in, presumably until the flood distoryed the physical Eden.

Now The Tree of Life could be called "The Tree of Perfection" since that is what it makes anyone who eats of it. In order to get to that Tree you have to survive Judgement. We do this by having GODs own Spirit in us. Then when we step forward for Judgement, GOD does not see us, He sees a Mirror of Himself Within us. That Stops our sinful self from being distroyed in his Presence

We are then made perfect. I may suggest that GOD allows us then to Eat the second Apple. The children of GOD bit is to be taken quite literally. When we are transformed we will each enter into a Union with GOD exactly like the members of the Trinity are in Union. Individual characteristics, and yet completely of one mind. Whose position do we take? Christs...We ARE the Body of Christ. Christian Mysticism would take this view...that we will become...in a sense part of GOD

Genesis seems to confirm the view that what I say isnt just a hypthesis, but that it is a possibility. I would like to suggest that the Death of Christ allows the Spirit to dwell in us...like the Spirit dwelt in Christ when he was on the Earth. I would like to suggest this as a reason for why we become more Christlike. I would like to suggest this as a reason why the scriptures use the term "Clothed" or Dressed, in Christs Righteousness, and why we are washed in His Blood. GOD can not kill Himself...so If we exist inside GOD prior to death, we need not fear standing in His Presence BEFORE we are Perfect, because a part of the Trinity, protects us from the other part of the Trinity untill we are perfect and able to sit along side...allowed to Reign with Christ.

One thing No Church ever delves into is the ramifications of what various points of the scripture actually say about our Future, in terms of how we become Perfect, just like GOD is perfect.

It also explains the half truth in Lucifers lie. Yes you CAN obtain Immortality and become like GOD by eating what he has forbidden man to eat. BUT You must eat BOTH Apples. One Apple is NOT sufficient....and he didnt make that clear :ninja:

Check out Genesis for yourself

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

He didnt banish Adam and Eve for disobediance. He bannished them to Prevent them from becoming like Him, too soon. Just like he mixed the Languages to stop the Antedeluvian Culture from becoming to close to being like GOD

surveyorshawn
07-11-2009, 03:59 PM
Yeah I understand whats being said, and my research is not about sacrificing relationship with God, but in my view relationship is about spending time with a person and getting to know that person on an intimate level, for us as Christians I believe taht relationship is first and foremost the important thing, however, its not enough to rest on the fact that we know God, its enough for our salvation, yes but thats not what my life is about, I am not about being saved and thats it, the bible tells me to be ready to give an account at any time, and from experiece and from my own point of view before I was saved I would not give someone that could not give me an andswer to my questions the time of day.

I would not stand and listen to someone about their belief if they can not stand on what they believe with real answers, and I dont want to be that person, I will tell anyone that wants to know about God, and for years have been invilved in various outreaches.

For me personally I know I am called to be a Pastor, and my job is to be firm in what I believe and be ready to account for what I believe, and I am not one to stand on something just because, I want to be firm in what I believe and why I belive it and that, that belief stands up to what the bible teaches and what my relationship with God has revealed to me.

I am not focusing on knowledge alone.

There were two trees in the garden and I eat from the tree of Life (Jesus) but we cant ignore that the other tree was that of knowledge, especially since the bible says my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
That is awesome Warriolion! Of course ,I am sure that you know why I mentioned studying those scriptures, because I do not really know you, and I was not sure if you got saved last year or 20 years ago, lol!:) In a bit I will post that outline of Calvinism and then follow it with my thoughts and responses to it. It would be nice if others did the same. I have a lot of work to do today to get caught up on stuff as I will be in the hospital with my son for 2 weeks and am super behind on paperwork, so I am not sure how much time I will actually have to post, but I will give it a shot! After I post my responses I will probably not argue them, but will just put them out for people to prayerfully consider and then either agree or disagree with. Any free time I have today will probably be spent watching UFC 100 tonight!!!:wink:

surveyorshawn
07-11-2009, 04:06 PM
Sorry, double post...my computer was acting up!

warriorlion
07-11-2009, 05:18 PM
the point I was getting at was not a literal thing, Jesus is life, God said that he came to give us life and in abundance, its a figuritive statement that since Jesus is the second Adam, who completes the circle, Adam began in the garden and ended in the wilderness, Jesus minisrty begins in the wilderness and ends in the garden (not taking away from the cross here at all)
That in a sence restores us washed in his blood to a place of being with God walking with Him. Hense the that whosoever believes in Him shall not die but have life everlasting

It was figurative not literal

Tyburn
07-11-2009, 05:38 PM
Jesus is the second Adam, who completes the circle, Adam began in the garden and ended in the wilderness, Jesus minisrty begins in the wilderness and ends in the garden (not taking away from the cross here at all)
That in a
:ninja: thats something I hadnt thought about.

Good symbological find, that.

All I meant was that Knowledge of GOD is not a product of eating from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. Because its not the Tree of Knowledge...but of Knowledge of a certain and specific thing.

...and to say, we didnt eat from the Tree of Life....well...we havent yet :)

Rev
07-11-2009, 05:44 PM
Yeah I understand whats being said, and my research is not about sacrificing relationship with God, but in my view relationship is about spending time with a person and getting to know that person on an intimate level, for us as Christians I believe taht relationship is first and foremost the important thing, however, its not enough to rest on the fact that we know God, its enough for our salvation, yes but thats not what my life is about, I am not about being saved and thats it, the bible tells me to be ready to give an account at any time, and from experiece and from my own point of view before I was saved I would not give someone that could not give me an andswer to my questions the time of day.

I would not stand and listen to someone about their belief if they can not stand on what they believe with real answers, and I dont want to be that person, I will tell anyone that wants to know about God, and for years have been invilved in various outreaches.

For me personally I know I am called to be a Pastor, and my job is to be firm in what I believe and be ready to account for what I believe, and I am not one to stand on something just because, I want to be firm in what I believe and why I belive it and that, that belief stands up to what the bible teaches and what my relationship with God has revealed to me.

I am not focusing on knowledge alone.

There were two trees in the garden and I eat from the tree of Life (Jesus) but we cant ignore that the other tree was that of knowledge, especially since the bible says my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

I agree with everything you just said and am proud to be part of a thread with other people who have these ambitions. We cant rest on our salvation, we are all called to be ready to ministers and like shawn said, to "rightly divide the word". I will be praying for everyone as they study.

Again, lets not get heated in this. Please.