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surveyorshawn
06-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Hi guys! On another forum, a poster asked how Christians or "religious" people could justify watching/supporting MMA. He was asking for honest replies from Christians MMA fans. I thought it would be pretty cool to talk about it here & see what everyone thinks. You know, Paul told Timothy to be ready in every season to give a reason for our hope...to defend our faith...and he also said that he was willing to become all things that he might win some. I see many threads criticizing fighters for giving thanks to God (there is one on that site criticizing Fedor for his faith as well), calling us hypocrites, etc. Most of the time I just read them & move on, but we should be ready to give an answer. These folks don't know or understand the truth, and we are the ones who should be showing it to them.

Anyway, here is the poster's question:

I'm always amazed to see fighters and fans having no problem advertising their religion and being MMA fighters/fans at the same time.

I'm totally irreligious, but I think that the path of spirituality and the violent sport of MMA are huge contradictions. I think its fine if your spiritual beliefs are kept private, but advertising your "spirituality" alongside support of this game is rather hypocritical. Not saying there's anything evil or wrong about MMA, but there's certainly nothing "godly" about it. Even TRUE Buddhist martial artists would never compete in MMA events. However, its the Christians who market themselves most loudly so am most interested in their POV.

Just giving my honest opinion, but would welcome some responses from Christian fighters or fans...

Here was my response:

I respect your opinion, and am thankful that the majority of people in the world are free to believe what we want and have our own opinion. To give my point of view, as a Christian, if MMA is not evil, or wrong, as you stated, then what is contradictory or hypocritical about being a Christian and enjoying MMA or talking about God, etc. alongside our support of this game? Contradictory would be if God is good and MMA is bad. A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does the opposite, as in I criticize you for smoking and then step outside and light up, or I criticize you for beating your wife and then go out & get plastered and drive around knocking mailboxes over with a baseball bat.

As far as it not being godly, what is godly about going to the movies, shopping for a new car, or training for a bench press competition? It is ok for Christians to have hobbies and do fun things other than go to church and go on mission trips. Football and rugby can be pretty violent sports as well, and many Christians watch and participate in them. Tons of Christians also serve in the armed forces, protecting our various countries with their lives. King David in the old testament was a mighty warrior who was feared across the land. The majority of the most popular MMA fighters, whether Christian or not, are very respectful to their opponents and enjoy competing and testing themselves. I think that is admirable. I personally tend to gravitate toward supporting those fighters and away from the ones who just want to continually hurt others for the spite of it, which does not seem godly to me.

But that is just my opinion. Again, I respect your opinion, and appreciate your question. I think it was a valid one. God bless!!

What would you guys say to this guy?

surveyorshawn
06-09-2009, 02:25 PM
Of course, several non-believers chimed in with their opinions as well. Many were pretty fair in their assessment and didn't see a problem or any hypocrisy at all. Several were not. Here is what one critical person said:

"I can't say I'm surprised that you guys can't find any problem here, considering that you'd have to lack critical thinking skills to even be a Christian in the first place. You should have known better, TS."

Again, I don't normally respond to things like this, but I felt compelled in this instance, since he was, like several others, insinuating that we are just a group of mindless morons who only believe what we do out of ignorance and a lack of intelligence. Here is my reply:

"I really don't think it is necessary to insult others in order to get your point across. That may be your opinion, but it does not make it correct. I am a Christian, have an IQ of 178 on a scale where 160 and above is considered to be genius, and am an engineer (designer, not train operator, lol). I think that is pretty good evidence of critical thinking skills. There are many, many super intelligent Christians who are scientists, they just don't get the airtime and notoriety that the evolutionist scientists do. I have scientifically examined the evidence, and am convinced there is more evidence for God and the claims of the Bible than there is for evolution.

I respect the fact that you may believe the opposite, and and glad we are both free to believe what we want. I will not insult you or your intelligence for your beliefs. If I am wrong, then all I have done is live my life doing good, treated others fairly and with respect, and given credit to God for the good things in my life...no harm, no foul. If you are wrong, well....."

Crisco
06-09-2009, 02:57 PM
Excellent response my friend. Well done for not going back at him.

The answer is actually pretty simple and you hit the nail on the head.

This is athletic competition. This is not a sadist festival where we cut eachother and play with blood and all that rubbish.

Having a fight for athletic sport is much different then beating someone with a baseball bat who insults you.

The only true mindless person in that debacle was "I can't say I'm surprised that you guys can't find any problem here, considering that you'd have to lack critical thinking skills to even be a Christian in the first place. You should have known better, TS." this guy.

He is being hypocritical. Don't tell someone they lack critical thinking when you in fact have ZERO skills yourself :laugh:

NateR
06-09-2009, 05:06 PM
I usually find that those people who don't believe that Christianity and MMA are compatible really have no understanding whatsoever about either one.

Crisco
06-09-2009, 05:13 PM
I usually find that those people who don't believe that Christianity and MMA are compatible really have no understanding whatsoever about either one.

exactly

mikthehick
06-09-2009, 06:50 PM
Shawn, what an excellent post! Lots of people, including my own dad, ask me the same thing. I usually respond that it's more about testing ourselves personally (if you train in MMA or martial arts), rather than winning. If you watch, well, I would venture to guess that people watch it for the love of the sport and the excitement that surrounds it.

I also agree with what Nate said.

ALSO, since when did Christianity state that we had to be a bunch of flower-picking, peace loving hippies? I think Christianity is anything 'but' that--the more I become in love with Christ, the more I have to overcome both spiritually and in life. It's a long, hard fought battle of the wills, and this life is nothing like the Utopia that peacelovers want. If they think this, they are kidding themselves because there will always be evil. But those who are saved and accept Him will prevail.

Here are some good backups and examples of self defense in the bible...




Exodus 22:2-3 ESV

If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.


Proverbs 25:26 ESV

Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.


Exodus 22:1-31 ESV

“If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. If the stolen beast is found alive in his possession, whether it is an ox or a donkey or a sheep, he shall pay double. “If a man causes a field or vineyard to be grazed over, or lets his beast loose and it feeds in another man's field, he shall make restitution from the best in his own field and in his own vineyard. ...


Matthew 26:52-54 ESV

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”


Psalm 46:1 ESV

To the choirmaster. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.


Romans 13:4 ESV

For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.


Matthew 5:38-39 ESV

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Exodus 21:24-25 ESV

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


Matthew 5:1-48 ESV

Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. ...


2 Chronicles 17:1-19 ESV

Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his place and strengthened himself against Israel. He placed forces in all the fortified cities of Judah and set garrisons in the land of Judah, and in the cities of Ephraim that Asa his father had captured. The Lord was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the earlier ways of his father David. He did not seek the Baals, but sought the God of his father and walked in his commandments, and not according to the practices of Israel. Therefore the Lord established the kingdom in his hand. And all Judah brought tribute to Jehoshaphat, and he had great riches and honor. ...


Judges 5:8 ESV

When new gods were chosen, then war was in the gates. Was shield or spear to be seen among forty thousand in Israel?


Leviticus 26:1-46 ESV

“You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God. You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord. “If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them, then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely. ...


Exodus 20:1-26 ESV

And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, ...


1 Timothy 5:8 ESV

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


Romans 12:19 ESV

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”


Luke 22:36 ESV

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.


Matthew 4:1-25 ESV

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple ...


Psalm 144:1 ESV

Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;


Deuteronomy 28:47-48 ESV

Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.


Deuteronomy 28:1-68 ESV

“And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. ...

Genesis 4:1-26 ESV

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.” And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. ...


John 18:1-40 ESV

When Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the Kidron Valley, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, for Jesus often met there with his disciples. So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. ...


Mark 7:1-37 ESV

Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” ...


Matthew 15:1-39 ESV

Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” ...


Numbers 31:3 ESV

So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Genesis 9:5-6 ESV

And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man. “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.


2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.


John 14:26 ESV

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.


John 14:15 ESV

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Luke 10:30-37 ESV

Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. ...


Luke 10:27 ESV

And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”


Matthew 5:19 ESV

Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Malachi 3:6 ESV

“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.


Nehemiah 4:17-18 ESV

Who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.


2 Chronicles 17:10 ESV

And the fear of the Lord fell upon all the kingdoms of the lands that were around Judah, and they made no war against Jehoshaphat.


1 Samuel 25:13 ESV

And David said to his men, “Every man strap on his sword!” And every man of them strapped on his sword. David also strapped on his sword. And about four hundred men went up after David, while two hundred remained with the baggage.


1 Samuel 13:22-23 ESV

So on the day of the battle there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people with Saul and Jonathan, but Saul and Jonathan his son had them. And the garrison of the Philistines went out to the pass of Michmash.


1 Samuel 13:19-20 ESV

Now there was no blacksmith to be found throughout all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, “Lest the Hebrews make themselves swords or spears.” But every one of the Israelites went down to the Philistines to sharpen his plowshare, his mattock, his axe, or his sickle,


1 Samuel 8:11 ESV

He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots.


Numbers 1:3 ESV

From twenty years old and upward, all in Israel who are able to go to war, you and Aaron shall list them, company by company.


Hebrews 13:8 ESV

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.


Romans 13:1-14 ESV

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...


Matthew 5:39 ESV

But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Matthew 4:7 ESV

Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”


Ezekiel 18:20 ESV

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Proverbs 20:22 ESV

Do not say, “I will repay evil”; wait for the Lord, and he will deliver you.

Exodus 20:13 ESV

“You shall not murder.


Galatians 5:22-23 ESV

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.


1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV

But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


1 Corinthians 9:25 ESV

Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.


1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ESV

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


Luke 22:1-71 ESV

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death, for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. ...


Proverbs 25:28 ESV

A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.


1 Samuel 8:1-22 ESV

When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. Yet his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted justice. Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah and said to him, “Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.” ...


John 10:34 ESV

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?


Exodus 20:5 ESV

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

VCURamFan
06-13-2009, 07:04 AM
Hey Shawn, just wanted to formally introduce myself real quick. I'm Ben & I'm usually all over these boards but have been absent to past coupla weeks 'cause I'm looking for a job right now (me & 80% of the nation, apparently). Just wanted to say hey & that you seem like my kinda people: Christian nerd to the core (my brother's a former Mech E turned HS physics teacher). Hope to post with you much more in the future!

surveyorshawn
06-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Cool! I look forward to it, Ben!

Bonnie
06-13-2009, 09:42 PM
If I am wrong, then all I have done is live my life doing good, treated others fairly and with respect, and given credit to God for the good things in my life...no harm, no foul. If you are wrong, well....."

What a very interesting thread, Shawn. It does give food for thought, although I do admit freely to not being blessed with "critical-thinking" skills as far as being as smart as you and plenty of others on this forum I've come to respect and know this past year. However, God has blessed me with plenty of "common sense", although, "TS" did not speak to that, did he...

I've been sitting here "thinking" :laugh: about the "?" asked and what the two guys you responded to had to say. Hopefully, the first guy was sincere in really wanting to hear what Christians think about "God and MMA" and how they could possibly "fit" together. As for the 2nd guy, he showed his intent quite clearly in his statement which, I think, had more to do with "being" a Christian than anything regarding the ? asked. :wink:

Anyhow, it seems the original guy is thinking that being a Christian and participating in MMA is or should be totally exclusive of each other and that's totally understandable if you're looking at the two just at face value. I think when people look at someone who is Christian they think, okay, this person is supposed to be good, morally upright, unflawed, beyond reproach and sin. Then they look at the MMA fighter in the cage, hitting, kicking, drawing blood from his opponent 'til victory is his hand raised in the air--man at his most base level. :wink: If you just look at the surface of the two, it's like "judging a book by it's cover" and not it's contents. But for any "thinking" person, if you really look and try to understand what "motivates" them both, you'll find they share more in common than not. :cool:

Vizion
06-14-2009, 05:39 PM
I usually find that those people who don't believe that Christianity and MMA are compatible really have no understanding whatsoever about either one.hmmm, for once NateR I may disagree...didn't Jesus say that in the last days the world would be filled with violence, as in the days of Noah?

I know mma and WARfare or self-defence aren't the same, but does mma influence violent tendencies or behaviours? Isn't the octagon itself supposed to glorify violence and bloodshed as once did the Collesium of Rome? The opening scene of UFC shows depicts a gladiator as if to suggest these fighters are the same...fighting to appease the bloodlust of the crowd...

explain.

NateR
06-15-2009, 03:04 AM
hmmm, for once NateR I may disagree...didn't Jesus say that in the last days the world would be filled with violence, as in the days of Noah?

I know mma and WARfare or self-defence aren't the same, but does mma influence violent tendencies or behaviours? Isn't the octagon itself supposed to glorify violence and bloodshed as once did the Collesium of Rome? The opening scene of UFC shows depicts a gladiator as if to suggest these fighters are the same...fighting to appease the bloodlust of the crowd...

explain.

I'm not sure what exactly it is you are asking. Are you asking if MMA makes people violent? My answer to that would be a very strong NO. MMA isn't popular because people are influenced by the violence. MMA is popular because people are violent. It's just human nature.

However, MMA provides a controlled release for the violent tendencies that we all have.

Also you can't condemn the fighters for the UFC's marketing campaigns. This is a far cry from the gladiatorial combat of ancient Rome. Nobody is intentionally trying to kill anyone, the fighters enter the cage of their own free will, and there aren't convicted criminals being torn apart by wild animals. There is really no comparison.

Vizion
06-15-2009, 03:30 AM
MMA isn't popular because people are influenced by the violence. MMA is popular because people are violent. It's just human nature. Sure...but...violence comes from wrath, and wrath is wicked...

However, MMA provides a controlled release for the violent tendencies that we all have.

Like therapy...hmm that sounds like a good excuse to permit bloodsport:laugh:

Nobody is intentionally trying to kill anyone, the fighters enter the cage of their own free will, and there aren't convicted criminals being torn apart by wild animals. There is really no comparison. I'm not saying they are exactly alike, but they essentially entertain the crowd by the same means, i.e. one on one combat...the bloodier the better (for some fans).

I know there are those who appreciate the fine skill it takes to tap an opponent via a submission however...

I guess what I'm asking is it how does mma not fall into the "days of Noah" category? :blink:

NateR
06-15-2009, 04:13 AM
1. Sure...but...violence comes from wrath, and wrath is wicked...

2. Like therapy...hmm that sounds like a good excuse to permit bloodsport

3. I guess what I'm asking is it how does mma not fall into the "days of Noah" category? :blink:

1. GOD is violent and shows wrath, is GOD wicked?

2. People are inherently evil and violent, better to teach them to control that violence than to let it control them.

3. Maybe it does; but then again so do a lot of things. To include every other sport and any form of recreation and entertainment.

Vizion
06-15-2009, 04:23 AM
1. GOD is violent and shows wrath, is GOD wicked?
God can do what God wants. He judges us, not the reverse.

2. People are inherently evil and violent, better to teach them to control that violence than to let it control them.
True. Mma can be a healthy outlet, but it breeds violence, so is it really?

3. Maybe it does; but then again so do a lot of things. To include every other sport and any form of recreation and entertainment. mma is far more violent than hockey, or fishing. Point is like anything violent outside of war/self-defense it is wicked, as in the days of Noah, am I false?
.

NateR
06-15-2009, 04:41 AM
1. God can do what God wants. He judges us, not the reverse.

2. True. Mma can be a healthy outlet, but it breeds violence, so is it really?

3. mma is far more violent than hockey, or fishing. Point is like anything violent outside of war/self-defense it is wicked, as in the days of Noah, am I false?

I wish you would stop typing inside the quotes, it makes it much more difficult to reply to you. Anyways...

1. I'm not judging GOD, I'm just making the point that hate, violence and wrath are traits that GOD shows throughout the Bible. So there is NOTHING inherently evil about any of those things. In fact, the fact that GOD exhibits these traits makes them holy, not wicked.

2. I don't believe that it does breed violence. In fact, I've seen more fights break out at baseball and high school football games than all of the MMA events I've been to combined.

3. So, hockey, fishing and MMA? May I ask which one of those sports involves the taking of life?

J.B.
06-15-2009, 05:42 AM
My opinion is that MMA is violent, but so are other sports. There is still an overlying sense of respect and controls in place to minimize the amount of serious injuries in ALL pro sports. Thats the difference. Of course people are competitive, and people can get hurt, but for the most part people are not TRYING to hurt others out of malice, and nobody WANTS to see somebody get seriously injured or crippled for life...

Of course, in the fight game, emotions do come into play, and you ARE trying to hurt your opponent out of anger sometimes, but even then, fighters on the highest levels still realize the importance of respecting each other as competitors. Heck, look at how Matt and Serra showed respect for each other after it was all said and done. All in all, I don't see MMA as being a sign of the apocalypse.

However, I will say that I think Hockey is more violent than MMA when you really look at it, and I could site a lot of examples to back up that opinion.

Vizion
06-15-2009, 07:37 AM
Sorry Nate, didn't know it was buggin' on you. :mellow:

1. so violence and wrath for sport is holy? God's wrath is holy and was/is seen when its right...ours could be seen that way too, at times of war...but I fail to see how an mma bout is somehow attributable to holy wrath, or war.

2. It's not about fights breaking out at an event, its the desensitation to violence that is concerning...violence breeds out of ignorance too.

3. violence doesn't have to involve taking a life...

Now you said Christianity and mma are compatible.

how ?

Vizion
06-15-2009, 07:44 AM
in the fight game, emotions do come into play, and you ARE trying to hurt your opponent out of anger sometimes, but even then, fighters on the highest levels still realize the importance of respecting each other as competitors. Heck, look at how Matt and Serra showed respect for each other after it was all said and done. All in all, I don't see MMA as being a sign of the apocalypse. So when Jesus said this: Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". ....He didn't mean the part about the violence and stuff...:Whistle:

I know the sportsmanship thing can be positive...BUT, look at the wrath that led up to that fight...the hating on Serra's end (I exclude Matt from any wrongdoing). More importantly its less about the fighters and more about the minds their sport influences.

J.B.
06-15-2009, 08:51 AM
So when Jesus said this: Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". ....He didn't mean the part about the violence and stuff...:Whistle:

I know the sportsmanship thing can be positive...BUT, look at the wrath that led up to that fight...the hating on Serra's end (I exclude Matt from any wrongdoing). More importantly its less about the fighters and more about the minds their sport influences.

Well, lets be honest here. Fighting as a sport has been going on for centuries. You are using a part of the scripture that could easily be compared to countless other eras in our world's history. More importantly the Lord also says that NOBODY will know when the end will come. So speculating on it has always seemed pointless to me.

I agree that the hype machine can get out of hand, and sometimes some fighters take things to far. However Serra's beef was so transparent it was pretty much made out of plastic wrap. Serra may genuinely not like Matt, but once he realized that the potential for the fight was there, he just kept talking the same stupid crap so that he could stay relevant.

I actually believe that martial arts, and the competition of the sport, contributes more GOOD to kids than the small amount of negativity produced by the hype machine. Could it be cleaned up a bit in that respect? Sure it could. On the whole though, I don't think it is something that is having a widespread negative effect on children. There are little things in every sport that could be cleaned up, but the idea that somehow they are bad for kids is just silly in my opinion.

Crisco
06-15-2009, 12:32 PM
So when Jesus said this: Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". ....He didn't mean the part about the violence and stuff...:Whistle:

I know the sportsmanship thing can be positive...BUT, look at the wrath that led up to that fight...the hating on Serra's end (I exclude Matt from any wrongdoing). More importantly its less about the fighters and more about the minds their sport influences.

I agree with what JB said.

I feel your views on MMA while somewhat valid are still false.

With your way of thinking any form of sports could be considered wrong. Competitive behavior spawns certain feelings inside of people feelings that manifest themselves in the form of athletic competition.

When I don't get to train I feel restless. All the stress of everyday can be quite overwhelming without a physical outlet.

I will say that I believe God and MMA are both mutually exclusive but they can surely get along.

The point could be argued all day long and honestly if you feel God would be against MMA and athletic competition why do you watch?

cubsfan47
06-15-2009, 12:51 PM
Well, lets be honest here. Fighting as a sport has been going on for centuries. You are using a part of the scripture that could easily be compared to countless other eras in our world's history. More importantly the Lord also says that NOBODY will know when the end will come. So speculating on it has always seemed pointless to me.

I agree that the hype machine can get out of hand, and sometimes some fighters take things to far. However Serra's beef was so transparent it was pretty much made out of plastic wrap. Serra may genuinely not like Matt, but once he realized that the potential for the fight was there, he just kept talking the same stupid crap so that he could stay relevant.

I actually believe that martial arts, and the competition of the sport, contributes more GOOD to kids than the small amount of negativity produced by the hype machine. Could it be cleaned up a bit in that respect? Sure it could. On the whole though, I don't think it is something that is having a widespread negative effect on children. There are little things in every sport that could be cleaned up, but the idea that somehow they are bad for kids is just silly in my opinion.

What he said.

By the way have any of you ever seen a bench clearing brawl at a baseball game? Lot's of violence there.

I think that training children in the martial arts gives them the discipline to control the anger which leads to violence.
The guys I know that are into martial arts are some of the classiest, slowest to anger people I know.

Bonnie
06-15-2009, 02:53 PM
What he said.

By the way have any of you ever seen a bench clearing brawl at a baseball game? Lot's of violence there.

I think that training children in the martial arts gives them the discipline to control the anger which leads to violence.
The guys I know that are into martial arts are some of the classiest, slowest to anger people I know.

Professional or Little League? That really isn't a ?, I'm agreeing with you and reminding everyone what has happened at "children's" games with the so-called "adults"/parents :wink: who get so angry they run out on the field and start brawling.

I agree with Nathan in that the violence or potential for violence is already there inside people; MMA isn't "making" people violent. For the fans who want to see blood or get off on just watching someone take a beating, that's just immaturity and in some cases something twisted and evil inside of them. And usually they were born like that or their life circumstances turned and twisted them. The true fan is there for the sport, the competition. IMHO

I really thought the original ? the guy was asking was basically, "How can you be a Christian and also be able to participate (fan or fighter) in MMA?"

Life is a struggle. From birth which is bloody and messy and yes violent in it's own way all the way to death. It is God's punishment of Eve that women suffer these things and His punishment of Adam that man toils and labors. God's wrath has been mighty and great throughout the history of mankind. What has brought His wrath upon our heads but our own human weaknesses.

Which is evil, the man who gets drunk and mean and starts a fight deliberately that ends with another man's death, or two trained, skilled men who enter a cage sober to pit their strength and skills in competition where there are rules of fair play? Who is evil, the crowd encouraging the drunken brawl, or the fans who've come to watch and support their favorite fighter(s) in a competitive bout? :cool:

Btw, I think hockey is by far one of the most, if not the most, violent sport played today.

Tyburn
06-15-2009, 03:45 PM
hmmm, for once NateR I may disagree...didn't Jesus say that in the last days the world would be filled with violence, as in the days of Noah?

I know mma and WARfare or self-defence aren't the same, but does mma influence violent tendencies or behaviours? Isn't the octagon itself supposed to glorify violence and bloodshed as once did the Collesium of Rome? The opening scene of UFC shows depicts a gladiator as if to suggest these fighters are the same...fighting to appease the bloodlust of the crowd...

explain.
If I may:

I did a research paper into Violence at Univeristy.

The common view is that rather then promote Violence, Sport based Violence actually acts as a Cathartic Vent. We are fallen, and we all seek violence, whether we recognise it or not. What we seek is the high that comes from the thrill of danger. Now some people do this by participating in dangerous sports and activities. It stops them from being a danger to themselves and others by channeling their frustration, anger and violence down a safe path.

Other do it by watching sport and dangerous activites...others by violent video games, others by being thrill seekers, others by watching horror or gore movies.

So the evidence is that actually in terms of Sport, the UFC is doing everyone a major favour by LOWERING the amount of unsolicitated violence, and spareing the fans need to carry it out by giving it to them safely on a platter.


Now for the other thing you mentioned. People like Specticals. The Octagon is not their to glorify violence, it is there to give speciticals.....specticals of defeat, torture, but also of heart...its a morality tale. Infact a reflection of true life, thats why so many empathise with it.

GOD loves Specticals. Look at the heavens...he created things light years away that we will probably never visit...and they look so beautiful...for that PURE purpose...for no other purpose then because it pleases him. Whenever he appears he brings a Spectical...think of the Cloud that descended around Sinai...think of the Israelites all standing and looking amazed at this...spectical.

I would say that based on the above, your fears are unfounded.

Bonnie
06-15-2009, 03:53 PM
If I may:

I did a research paper into Violence at Univeristy.

The common view is that rather then promote Violence, Sport based Violence actually acts as a Cathartic Vent. We are fallen, and we all seek violence, whether we recognise it or not. What we seek is the high that comes from the thrill of danger. Now some people do this by participating in dangerous sports and activities. It stops them from being a danger to themselves and others by channeling their frustration, anger and violence down a safe path.

Other do it by watching sport and dangerous activites...others by violent video games, others by being thrill seekers, others by watching horror or gore movies.

So the evidence is that actually in terms of Sport, the UFC is doing everyone a major favour by LOWERING the amount of unsolicitated violence, and spareing the fans need to carry it out by giving it to them safely on a platter.


Now for the other thing you mentioned. People like Specticals. The Octagon is not their to glorify violence, it is there to give speciticals.....specticals of defeat, torture, but also of heart...its a morality tale. Infact a reflection of true life, thats why so many empathise with it.

GOD loves Specticals. Look at the heavens...he created things light years away that we will probably never visit...and they look so beautiful...for that PURE purpose...for no other purpose then because it pleases him. Whenever he appears he brings a Spectical...think of the Cloud that descended around Sinai...think of the Israelites all standing and looking amazed at this...spectical.

I would say that based on the above, your fears are unfounded.

EXACTLY! That's what I meant in my earlier post, "that if you REALLY look at what motivates both the Christian and the MMA fighter/fan...more in common than not." What motivates the Christian and the fighter? What motivates the MMA fan to watch? Aren't they all struggling, striving to be the best they can while overcoming life's obstacles? :wink:

Vizion
06-15-2009, 04:23 PM
k, I cannot possibly find the time to respond to 5 different posters for fcks sake...:laugh: where's Nate??

Bonnie
06-15-2009, 04:29 PM
k, I cannot possibly find the time to respond to 5 different posters for fcks sake...:laugh: where's Nate??

Damn...we must be good, we got him calling for Nathan! :laugh:

(not that that's gonna help you Vizion :tongue0011: ) :laugh:

Vizion
06-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Ahahaha - like that matters lest he convinces me!! :laugh: :laugh: :tongue0011:

Crisco
06-15-2009, 04:57 PM
Ahahaha - like that matters lest he convinces me!! :laugh: :laugh: :tongue0011:

some people don't care about valid reasoning they just won't change their minds :wink: :tongue0011:

NateR
06-15-2009, 06:56 PM
Sorry Nate, didn't know it was buggin' on you. :mellow:

1. so violence and wrath for sport is holy? God's wrath is holy and was/is seen when its right...ours could be seen that way too, at times of war...but I fail to see how an mma bout is somehow attributable to holy wrath, or war.

2. It's not about fights breaking out at an event, its the desensitation to violence that is concerning...violence breeds out of ignorance too.

3. violence doesn't have to involve taking a life...

Now you said Christianity and mma are compatible.

how ?

It just makes it more difficult since I have to manually reconstruct the post in order to reply to you.

1. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I was refuting your argument that violence and wrath, in and of themselves, are proof of wickedness. I never once claimed that MMA was holy, just that hatred, violence and wrath all have their place in holiness, thus cannot be considered inherently evil.

2. That is a problem, but MMA is just a tiny part of that desensitization. Have you played video games or watched television lately?

3. I just think it's funny how you think you can determine what is a violent sport and what isn't, even though one of your examples of a "non-violent" sport involves killing.

Anyways, I don't feel that I know enough about MMA to argue this any further. I've never been in a fight in my life and I've never thrown a punch in my life. However, I feel no conflict of faith when watching MMA. From talking to Matt, I know that he's prayed a lot about this and has so far felt no inclination that makes him believe that what he is doing is wrong.

Clearly, you are having a crisis of conscience about MMA, so I don't want to say anything that might become a stumbling block to your faith. Except to suggest that if you are feeling so conflicted about this sport, then maybe it's time to find another hobby.

NateR
06-15-2009, 06:59 PM
Ahahaha - like that matters lest he convinces me!! :laugh: :laugh: :tongue0011:

It's not my job to convince you of anything. This is a matter of conscience, not dogma.

Stormhammer
01-03-2011, 07:08 AM
Surveyorshawn,

Thank you for posting this thread and your opinions on the matter of MMA and Christianity. It answers, in part, some of the struggles I have had in determining my career path. Often I find myself in major doubt as to whether what I want to do is an acceptable living to God, which is largely another story than the current discussion here on MMA but nonetheless still in the entertainment industry, just a different sector. Would be great to get some specific feedback on that, but another time.

Edit: As for whether MMA is a glorification of violence in the minds of the viewer, as others in this thread have questioned, I would say that is dependent on the viewer. I get intense when watching fights, and have a desire to return to martial arts as a result, but I absolutely do not want to unleash any fury on someone out of some unrequited need for violence. I have no need of it, only the desire to push and test myself to my limits. And if that were to become a priority over God in my life, then I would be in the wrong, not the activity. Remember that Jesus turned water to wine, but it didn't change the rules about drunkenness, nor did he have any misgivings about the transformation in the first place. And alcohol has done far more damage to humanity than martial arts could ever hope to do. It is YOU who is responsible for loving your fellow man, not vice versa, and if one stepped into the ring with lust for punishing others in their heart then we have a big problem. Those are the kind of people that get into bar brawls and street fights, and are largely not allowed to continue in any MMA promotion should such an event occur.

adamt
01-03-2011, 01:22 PM
imho

violence would be the last thing i would say is an issue with christianity within mma

the only two issues i might possibly see would be the pride issue, that comes with competition, specifically if you are doing well

and also the issue of amusement
which used to be a big issue, but no one cares about anymore

it asks the question if any christian should waste their time and money frivoulusly entertaining themselves... but that applies to all sports

now here is a link, but only read it if you can have an open mind to think about things, and see new perspectives, no need to go there looking to debate about it, it is just an example of a thought process, and it does have good points...... http://www.gospeltruth.net/1868_75Independent/721107_inn_amuse.htm

Vizion
01-03-2011, 02:45 PM
Wow - this is an old thread.

I re-read some of it. My problem with MMA isn't that it in itself is wrong, or sinful, but that its institution will set off a chain baby steps that will lead to future bloodsports akin to the gladitorial games of antiquity - and it will.

People these days easily forget the past, ignore the past, searching after the own lusts. We are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past. Death in just fasad verily I say will marry our lust to see something "more" than mma once mma grows stale, and it will - its already getting stale. Like email.

We are sinners in the hands of an angry God. We are fools, we are self-centered and we hate each other with spite. "We" being the world of course.

No one will agree with me, but IF the world went on another 30-50 years *(which I don't believe it will) - mma would be taking a backseat to the gladitorial games again - only this time it would be person vs. person and death would be a popular and acceptable option.

Crisco
01-03-2011, 03:10 PM
Wow - this is an old thread.

I re-read some of it. My problem with MMA isn't that it in itself is wrong, or sinful, but that its institution will set off a chain baby steps that will lead to future bloodsports akin to the gladitorial games of antiquity - and it will.

People these days easily forget the past, ignore the past, searching after the own lusts. We are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past. Death in just fasad verily I say will marry our lust to see something "more" than mma once mma grows stale, and it will - its already getting stale. Like email.

We are sinners in the hands of an angry God. We are fools, we are self-centered and we hate each other with spite. "We" being the world of course.

No one will agree with me, but IF the world went on another 30-50 years *(which I don't believe it will) - mma would be taking a backseat to the gladitorial games again - only this time it would be person vs. person and death would be a popular and acceptable option.

The real fact is Americans really don't have the taste for violence we think they do. You will never see an American based Gladitorial games to the death. Will not happen. The only way this happens is if the country is taken over in a coup and most of the citizens are killed.

THE problem with MMA is people view it with the wrong goggles on. It's not violence, it's sport. Your watching two men test each others prowess...

I mean Jacob wrestled with an angel for crying out loud...

Vizion
01-03-2011, 03:20 PM
The real fact is Americans really don't have the taste for violence we think they do. Really? We LOVE violence. LOVE it. You see it all over the place, in movies, television, sports. People eat it up like chocolate cake. People celebrate it and hunger for it. HUNGER for it.

Without Jesus ALL things are permissible. As such as a nation rejecting God, we will be abandoned to our lusts.

Crisco
01-03-2011, 03:33 PM
Really? We LOVE violence. LOVE it. You see it all over the place, in movies, television, sports. People eat it up like chocolate cake. People celebrate it and hunger for it. HUNGER for it.

Without Jesus ALL things are permissible. As such as a nation rejecting God, we will be abandoned to our lusts.

America is a secular nation with laws regarding sport. Look at how up in arms this country gets over anything remotely realistically violent.

Without God comes depravity indeed death is over line for this country Vizion. Your talking about a nation that desperately wants to outlaw the death penalty because it's cruel to the murderer.

Mark
01-03-2011, 03:33 PM
Really? We LOVE violence. LOVE it. You see it all over the place, in movies, television, sports. People eat it up like chocolate cake. People celebrate it and hunger for it. HUNGER for it.

Really??? Celebrate and hunger for it... really??? next time say I not we.

Vizion
01-03-2011, 03:59 PM
America is a secular nation with laws regarding sport. Look at how up in arms this country gets over anything remotely realistically violent. Sure...right now. Tomorrow things may change. Little by little things will change. Take euthanasia...in time it WILL happen.

Without God comes depravity indeed death is over line for this country Vizion. Your talking about a nation that desperately wants to outlaw the death penalty because it's cruel to the murderer. Apples and oranges. And I would bet most people still favor it. And even if they didn't, so what? We've all learned how valuable majority opinion is in America :laugh:

Tyburn
01-03-2011, 04:37 PM
I mean Jacob wrestled with an angel for crying out loud...

YES he did!! probably Saint Michael :w00t: Wrestling is the sport of Angels...but then Angels are fighters for war not for sport :)

Stormhammer
01-03-2011, 06:25 PM
Wow - this is an old thread.

I re-read some of it. My problem with MMA isn't that it in itself is wrong, or sinful, but that its institution will set off a chain baby steps that will lead to future bloodsports akin to the gladitorial games of antiquity - and it will.

People these days easily forget the past, ignore the past, searching after the own lusts. We are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past. Death in just fasad verily I say will marry our lust to see something "more" than mma once mma grows stale, and it will - its already getting stale. Like email.

We are sinners in the hands of an angry God. We are fools, we are self-centered and we hate each other with spite. "We" being the world of course.

No one will agree with me, but IF the world went on another 30-50 years *(which I don't believe it will) - mma would be taking a backseat to the gladitorial games again - only this time it would be person vs. person and death would be a popular and acceptable option.

MMA, since UFC first went live, has been more regulated and structured than it used to be. Remember the Taktarov/Abbot fight? Fish-hooking was banned not long after that fight. I see it as less brutal now than it did when weight classes weren't an issue.

If you look over the history of sports, you'll find an interesting trend that steers toward safety and away from blood and brutality. Football used to be played with no pads, no helmet. Then a leather helmet with minimal pads. Then full face guards came in and bigger pads. Same with every other contact sport. Boxing never used to have a round limit. The record for the longest match I believe went over 18 rounds. The longest wrestling match went for nearly 24 hours. Now look at the limits. 3-5 rounds, 5 minutes each depending on the sport. The rules aren't becoming more lax in their enforcement. Quite the contrary.

Chris F
01-03-2011, 07:39 PM
The real fact is Americans really don't have the taste for violence we think they do. You will never see an American based Gladitorial games to the death. Will not happen. The only way this happens is if the country is taken over in a coup and most of the citizens are killed.

THE problem with MMA is people view it with the wrong goggles on. It's not violence, it's sport. Your watching two men test each others prowess...

I mean Jacob wrestled with an angel for crying out loud...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Than you are really naive. Everything Rome did America is doing now. America is blood thirsty and eventully the mob mentlaity will losen up the rules and it will get worse. Free bread and circuses. One day the Gove will not only pass out welfare to all but free UFL like battles to the death and the Christians will be the targets again.

Stormhammer
01-03-2011, 08:05 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Than you are really naive. Everything Rome did America is doing now. America is blood thirsty and eventully the mob mentlaity will losen up the rules and it will get worse. Free bread and circuses. One day the Gove will not only pass out welfare to all but free UFL like battles to the death and the Christians will be the targets again.

Trends suggest otherwise in terms of the violence. They tried to ban gun ownership after all. And limit our military. It won't be because of MMA that violence increases. It will be because of the ungodly who have no self-control.

Remember, you can kill someone with a butter knife, or you can just spread butter with it. Should we ban it because of the potential?

As for Rome vs America: No. We aren't. We aren't throwing ourselves into a lion pit to appease the crowd. We aren't nailing people to a wooden cross because we looked at a soldier wrong. We aren't simply killing people because they believe a different religion than what our nation was founded on. We aren't having public baths. We aren't taking part in a census that requires us to go back to our town of birth. The violence we experience on part of our government in this country is NOTHING compared to what occurred back in Rome. Absolutely nothing like it.

adamt
01-03-2011, 08:16 PM
I mean Jacob wrestled with an angel for crying out loud...

more than an angel, i think, i think it was the LORD himself





also, america has alot in common with past civilizations, such as rome, BUT we are virtually ALL descendants of dissedents.....which is to say , only the people with BALLS left their country and came here, starting with the british, but including all nations. I dare say the black popu. are descendants of the ones who fought for freedom, tho they were not here by choice to begin with, they stayed here by choice

point is, america was based on liberty, it is in our blood, if it wasn't, you just stayed where you were and kept taking the crap your gov fed you

we're all too young of a nation to be that complacent yet

Chris F
01-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Trends suggest otherwise in terms of the violence. They tried to ban gun ownership after all. And limit our military. It won't be because of MMA that violence increases. It will be because of the ungodly who have no self-control.

Remember, you can kill someone with a butter knife, or you can just spread butter with it. Should we ban it because of the potential?

As for Rome vs America: No. We aren't. We aren't throwing ourselves into a lion pit to appease the crowd. We aren't nailing people to a wooden cross because we looked at a soldier wrong. We aren't simply killing people because they believe a different religion than what our nation was founded on. We aren't having public baths. We aren't taking part in a census that requires us to go back to our town of birth. The violence we experience on part of our government in this country is NOTHING compared to what occurred back in Rome. Absolutely nothing like it.

Who said anyhting about banning? I sure didn't. In fact I think some of the rule in America are stupid and should change. I was talking about the fact the America is more than capable of digreesing to death matches

As for America being like Rome. You might want to read up more on that. Just about every major talking head especially the historians are saying it is amazing how paralleled the two empires are. Also I think you might want to better educate yourself on the history of Rome as well. You are foolish to think they are all that much different. My guess you historiography does not go past that of what you might have learned in high school

Stormhammer
01-03-2011, 08:43 PM
ChrisF,

I think you need to adjust your attitude. There's no need to be condescending. If you really had more knowledge on the subject, you would have used that instead of resorting to petty comments.

This discussion is about sports violence and Christianity. Not about politics. Yes, America and Rome have many similarities. Yes, neither is currently a moral standard. But in terms of VIOLENCE and BRUTALITY, there is no comparison between the two.

Keep the discussion in context.

Crisco
01-03-2011, 08:50 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Than you are really naive. Everything Rome did America is doing now. America is blood thirsty and eventully the mob mentlaity will losen up the rules and it will get worse. Free bread and circuses. One day the Gove will not only pass out welfare to all but free UFL like battles to the death and the Christians will be the targets again.

Which one of us here is naive buddy :rolleyes:

Vizion
01-04-2011, 02:03 AM
Look forward to disecting your argument in the morrow Stormhammer :cool:

For now I have to get to bed, meetings all day in the morning :unsure:

Chris F
01-04-2011, 06:15 AM
ChrisF,

I think you need to adjust your attitude. There's no need to be condescending. If you really had more knowledge on the subject, you would have used that instead of resorting to petty comments.

This discussion is about sports violence and Christianity. Not about politics. Yes, America and Rome have many similarities. Yes, neither is currently a moral standard. But in terms of VIOLENCE and BRUTALITY, there is no comparison between the two.

Keep the discussion in context.
You have not seen condescending here yet man. I am stating a fact. Can you prove otherwise? I hold advance degrees on the subject and in one have my classes was force to endure hours of research on this very topic. I can take anything you think is different and for the most part give you a modern day exmaple. For instance did you know Rome had baseball card? Not literally but they have lithographs of their favorite gladiator or chariot racer. How about scale model nascars? Yep they have uncovered replica chariots to scale that were sold at the coliseum races. Eventually America will digress into killing Christians in bloody fights but as of yet we are not there. However Rome was not built in a day either. SO unless you got cold hard data you better to step away from the lecture and educate yourself on the facts.

Stormhammer
01-04-2011, 05:40 PM
You have not seen condescending here yet man. I am stating a fact. Can you prove otherwise? I hold advance degrees on the subject and in one have my classes was force to endure hours of research on this very topic. I can take anything you think is different and for the most part give you a modern day exmaple. For instance did you know Rome had baseball card? Not literally but they have lithographs of their favorite gladiator or chariot racer. How about scale model nascars? Yep they have uncovered replica chariots to scale that were sold at the coliseum races. Eventually America will digress into killing Christians in bloody fights but as of yet we are not there. However Rome was not built in a day either. SO unless you got cold hard data you better to step away from the lecture and educate yourself on the facts.

I'm sorry you feel you have to stand on a pedestal about this.

So Rome having a lithograph of a gladiator equates to our baseball cards? A chariot equates to Nascar? How exactly does this contribute to a discussion on violence and Christianity, or even how America will digress into an uncivilized state? I'm not interested in your metaphorical connections. I am interested in discussing the moral implications of a Christian within the MMA sector.

I've already shown you some facts about the progression of sports safety and regulation, which went from none at all to an almost overbearing level of regulation. This is common knowledge. Proof is everywhere.

Yes, Christians will be persecuted in America again. But it WILL not be the fault of Martial Arts or any other sport. It will be, as scripture says, the total rejection of God's truth. That is a different discussion than what this thread was posted as. If you want to discuss this, perhaps start a prophecy thread on the subject of future persecution. America didn't invent combat sports.

As for your "several degrees on the subject", you certainly haven't provided any relevant information or a logical answer (re: lithograph-baseball cards). Compare today's "violent" America to Rome. Tell me where they stack up 1-to-1 on this, and I will agree with you. Just remember: Since 1976, America has executed 1234 criminals who committed heinous crime, the methods of execution lasting no more than several minutes. (Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf. In ancient Rome? Staggering (which I'm sure your degrees on the subject can tell you), as they handed out executions like free samples of Tide for things as benign as prayer, and lasted as long as several days. Your point about this is not valid in this thread anyway and once again takes the discussion away from its intended topic. Officially my last post responding to you on this, lest this thread digress into something unsavory.

Christianity and MMA. Discuss.

Miss Foxy
01-04-2011, 05:48 PM
ChrisF,

I think you need to adjust your attitude. There's no need to be condescending. If you really had more knowledge on the subject, you would have used that instead of resorting to petty comments.

This discussion is about sports violence and Christianity. Not about politics. Yes, America and Rome have many similarities. Yes, neither is currently a moral standard. But in terms of VIOLENCE and BRUTALITY, there is no comparison between the two.

Keep the discussion in context.

It wasn't an official welcome until you felt the wrath of ChrisF... :) Nice posts btw. Your very respectful..

Stormhammer
01-04-2011, 06:48 PM
It wasn't an official welcome until you felt the wrath of ChrisF... :) Nice posts btw. Your very respectful..

Thank you. I kind of figured he was that "one of those in every forum" kind of guy. :)

Miss Foxy
01-04-2011, 07:31 PM
Thank you. I kind of figured he was that "one of those in every forum" kind of guy. :)

He means well..:wink: I am the "one of those gals in every forum" when it comes to my dislikes! lol..

Chris F
01-04-2011, 07:33 PM
I'm sorry you feel you have to stand on a pedestal about this.

So Rome having a lithograph of a gladiator equates to our baseball cards? A chariot equates to Nascar? How exactly does this contribute to a discussion on violence and Christianity, or even how America will digress into an uncivilized state? I'm not interested in your metaphorical connections. I am interested in discussing the moral implications of a Christian within the MMA sector.

I've already shown you some facts about the progression of sports safety and regulation, which went from none at all to an almost overbearing level of regulation. This is common knowledge. Proof is everywhere.

Yes, Christians will be persecuted in America again. But it WILL not be the fault of Martial Arts or any other sport. It will be, as scripture says, the total rejection of God's truth. That is a different discussion than what this thread was posted as. If you want to discuss this, perhaps start a prophecy thread on the subject of future persecution. America didn't invent combat sports.

As for your "several degrees on the subject", you certainly haven't provided any relevant information or a logical answer (re: lithograph-baseball cards). Compare today's "violent" America to Rome. Tell me where they stack up 1-to-1 on this, and I will agree with you. Just remember: Since 1976, America has executed 1234 criminals who committed heinous crime, the methods of execution lasting no more than several minutes. (Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf. In ancient Rome? Staggering (which I'm sure your degrees on the subject can tell you), as they handed out executions like free samples of Tide for things as benign as prayer, and lasted as long as several days. Your point about this is not valid in this thread anyway and once again takes the discussion away from its intended topic. Officially my last post responding to you on this, lest this thread digress into something unsavory.

Christianity and MMA. Discuss.

So what you need to do is change the subject because you have been proven wrong this. YOu argument toward my words had nothnig to do wiht the moral implications of Christanity and MMA. I guess I should of relaized you were arguing out both sides of your mouth when you misundrstood it from the start. I pretty much agree with your POV on the morality of it. I disagreed with your arguement that America was nothing like Rome. The other part I cna careless because that is modern and I am a historian not a sociologist.

Chris F
01-04-2011, 07:37 PM
It wasn't an official welcome until you felt the wrath of ChrisF... :) Nice posts btw. Your very respectful..

WRATH? ??????? :laugh: I went easy on him because he is new. And because he was respectful had he gone Brad on me and I would have been "condesending". But he actually is a decent poster. He just needs to learn better argumentation.

Chris F
01-04-2011, 07:48 PM
Thank you. I kind of figured he was that "one of those in every forum" kind of guy. :)

I am just that guy for Theology and history. Dave is the guy for the rest of the stuff

Stormhammer
01-04-2011, 08:07 PM
So what you need to do is change the subject because you have been proven wrong this. YOu argument toward my words had nothnig to do wiht the moral implications of Christanity and MMA. I guess I should of relaized you were arguing out both sides of your mouth when you misundrstood it from the start. I pretty much agree with your POV on the morality of it. I disagreed with your arguement that America was nothing like Rome. The other part I cna careless because that is modern and I am a historian not a sociologist.

You're the one that changed the subject. You're the one that brought the argument away from God and MMA. You're the one that shoehorned your own argument in there because you knew you didn't have any other stake in it.

When I said America is nothing like Rome, I said that specifically in comparison with the level of violence Rome had versus America. I was very clear on that.

And if you are not a sociologist but a historian, why are you arguing with me on sociological topics? Honestly, kid. Go ahead and get your final word in. Moving on...

Chris F
01-05-2011, 06:01 AM
You're the one that changed the subject. You're the one that brought the argument away from God and MMA. You're the one that shoehorned your own argument in there because you knew you didn't have any other stake in it.

When I said America is nothing like Rome, I said that specifically in comparison with the level of violence Rome had versus America. I was very clear on that.

And if you are not a sociologist but a historian, why are you arguing with me on sociological topics? Honestly, kid. Go ahead and get your final word in. Moving on...


Kid? I sure hope you are like 70 or something because I am far from a kid :laugh: I was responding to you specific comment on which you quoted me. So lets review a little slower for you. If I am responding to a comment where you quoted me than that means you in fact were arguing with me and I was simply educated you on your obvious historical ignorance. So maybe you should try another hobby because argumentation is certainly not your strength. God bless any how glad you have chose to move on. See comment number 42 for the evidence :wink:

Vizion
01-05-2011, 03:51 PM
Trends suggest otherwise in terms of the violence. They tried to ban gun ownership after all. And limit our military. It won't be because of MMA that violence increases. It will be because of the ungodly who have no self-control. You just destroyed your entire argument. TRENDS. Your whole argument is based on a word that is utterly meaningless because it has no spiritual value.

People are basically EVIL, not good. Human concepts like trends shift and trends can disappear in seconds. IF the world lasts another 50 years you can better believe these "trends" will trend away from recognizibility because people want blood.

Without God the Romans had no accountability, everything was permissable. Today, western civilization is making God into a swear word, a taboo. He is being removed from every part of public life. Our spiritual anchor. He whom gave us our moral conciouss. This is why trends mean nothing.

Once a society rejects God, He in turn will reject them. Case in point, how many times following a huge rebellion against God were Israel defeated by their enemies?

That had nothing to do with trends suggesting anything, and everything to do with God lifting his restraining protection from them.

the UFC celebrates gladitorial combat - as seen in their melodramatic opening. That doesn't mean everyone who watches UFC wants to see people fight to the death. But rest assured, in time, like euthanasia, and gay marriage it will happen because people are becoming increasingly cold, skeptical, and selfish the more this country turns its back on God.

Chris F
01-05-2011, 07:12 PM
You just destroyed your entire argument. TRENDS. Your whole argument is based on a word that is utterly meaningless because it has no spiritual value.

People are basically EVIL, not good. Human concepts like trends shift and trends can disappear in seconds. IF the world lasts another 50 years you can better believe these "trends" will trend away from recognizibility because people want blood.

Without God the Romans had no accountability, everything was permissable. Today, western civilization is making God into a swear word, a taboo. He is being removed from every part of public life. Our spiritual anchor. He whom gave us our moral conciouss. This is why trends mean nothing.

Once a society rejects God, He in turn will reject them. Case in point, how many times following a huge rebellion against God were Israel defeated by their enemies?

That had nothing to do with trends suggesting anything, and everything to do with God lifting his restraining protection from them.

the UFC celebrates gladitorial combat - as seen in their melodramatic opening. That doesn't mean everyone who watches UFC wants to see people fight to the death. But rest assured, in time, like euthanasia, and gay marriage it will happen because people are becoming increasingly cold, skeptical, and selfish the more this country turns its back on God.

+1

Tyburn
01-05-2011, 08:17 PM
For what its worth, there are trends in violence and society, and its tollerated forms in sport. I actually did my thesis into symbolic violence and whether violence in sport, film and the likes actually acts as a vent and prevents violence on the street and crime. I did it way back in 2003 and so my focus was professional wrestling rather the mixed martial arts...interesting of course because professional wrestling is not a sport and thus is an oddball because if violence is only tollerated in sport due to saefty rules, and pro wrestling is not a sport with no competition, you have to ask yourselves why its such a big industry when its entirely symbolic in its violence (that is to say no competition and no nastyness...simply choreography, that whilst physical seems to give the watcher and participent nothing in return for injury or success (at least not at first glance.

I'll leave you with a few links to my thesis (which I recorded on youtube...I may already have given these links before...I cant remember, and cant be bothered to look :laugh: )

Does Violence Beget Violence, or is it an escapist cathartic vent? May I introduce to you The Hostility Catharsis debate :laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfqGXnjFJT4

About how we interpret symbols and thus violence and what we can get from this symbolis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy6IpVbFePA

On the issue of Violent Trends in society, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-wd9PZU_ek

warriorlion
01-06-2011, 10:44 AM
So when Jesus said this: Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". ....He didn't mean the part about the violence and stuff...:Whistle:

I know the sportsmanship thing can be positive...BUT, look at the wrath that led up to that fight...the hating on Serra's end (I exclude Matt from any wrongdoing). More importantly its less about the fighters and more about the minds their sport influences.

and yet Matt willing stepped inside the octagon a laid a beating on Serra, which from your original question wold suggest you see as wrong, as its violence and its 'wrath'

you cant have it both ways, either its sport in which its competition, and violence is inherent in most sports, take American Football, the aim of the defense is to flatten the QB as fast and as Hard as possible, hockey - where sticks are thrown down and fists fly that are not at all a part of the game, and what is part of the game is slamming your opponent into the perspex wall to get the puck.

or its wrong, you cant chose to call Matt Serra out of the hye of the fight, and lay claim that Matt Hughes is clear of wrongdoing, in that they both stepped into the octagon to FIGHT.

Now if you view is taht MMA is wrong then you have to lay the playing field level.

I dont agree with the smack talk to build a fight, I dot buy into that side of MMA at all, but the competition side, I see nothing wrong with it.

And to look at the bible, and its view wrestling is violent, yet the Lord wrestles with Jacob, cause him to limp for the rest of his life, its also says the scripture in my tagline, Psalm 144.

Dethbob
01-06-2011, 02:14 PM
So far I have not heard anyone make a *Biblical* case against MMA. Sport fighting existed during the times of Moses, the Prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles, and if it was as evil as some suggest I imagine at least one of them would have said something. The only mention I can find is in 2 Timothy 4 and 1 Corinthians 9, wherein Paul uses boxing as a metaphor for something good, not something bad.

Vizion
01-06-2011, 05:21 PM
and yet Matt willing stepped inside the octagon a laid a beating on Serra, which from your original question wold suggest you see as wrong, as its violence and its 'wrath' It was a combination of both yes. Matt wanted to beat Serra for his insults (can't say I could blame him). If its violence done out of anger, then it is the very defintion of WRATH.

you cant have it both ways, either its sport in which its competition, and violence is inherent in most sports, take American Football, the aim of the defense is to flatten the QB as fast and as Hard as possible, hockey - where sticks are thrown down and fists fly that are not at all a part of the game, and what is part of the game is slamming your opponent into the perspex wall to get the puck. Not really. Football is a team sport. And MMA is not - not once the cage door comes shut. I digress however, and will not include it all as wrath - only those that go beyond the sportsmanship.

Now if you view is taht MMA is wrong then you have to lay the playing field level. Did I ever say it was wrong?

And to look at the bible, and its view wrestling is violent, yet the Lord wrestles with Jacob, cause him to limp for the rest of his life, its also says the scripture in my tagline, Psalm 144. Yea...that wasn't wrath. That was symbolism. God was saying to Jacob that he would be a thorn in his side all his days. Him being Israel, of course :wink:

Vizion
01-06-2011, 05:22 PM
So far I have not heard anyone make a *Biblical* case against MMA. Sport fighting existed during the times of Moses, the Prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles, and if it was as evil as some suggest I imagine at least one of them would have said something. The only mention I can find is in 2 Timothy 4 and 1 Corinthians 9, wherein Paul uses boxing as a metaphor for something good, not something bad.No one is calling MMA wrong, just a sign of the end times :)

Dethbob
01-06-2011, 06:33 PM
No one is calling MMA wrong, just a sign of the end times :)

Well, YEAH, why do you think I’m a fan? ;)