PDA

View Full Version : How will Obama respond to N. Korea?


rockdawg21
05-26-2009, 01:05 PM
Interesting to see what he will do, considering it's his opinion that "talking" will solve the problem. :rotfl:

For Obama, test of commitment to engagement
North Korea’s nuclear test leaves him with critical questions about response

President Obama came into office saying he wanted to demonstrate that engagement with hostile nations is more effective than antagonism, but North Korea's nuclear test now leaves the young administration with critical choices about its response.

Does it ramp up the pressure with new and tougher sanctions? Does it not overreact and essentially stand pat? Or will it, like the Bush administration after North Korea's first test in 2006, shift course and redouble efforts at engagement and diplomacy?

A key variable is an assessment of what North Korea is hoping to gain. Is it ratcheting up the pressure to win new concessions from the United States and nations in the region? Or should the United States take its rhetoric at face value — that it is aiming to become a full-fledged nuclear power, no matter what the cost in diplomatic isolation?

Top officials in the Obama administration have only begun to grapple with those questions and have not reached any conclusions beyond seeking condemnation by the U.N. Security Council with "consequences," officials said yesterday. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton hit the phones urging a "strong, unified" approach from other nations while President Obama said the North was "deepening its own isolation and inviting stronger international pressure." He vowed to "work with our friends and our allies to stand up to this behavior."

The answers are complicated by the fact that the notoriously unpredictable government in Pyongyang appears to be in flux, with leader Kim Jong Il ailing from a stroke and no clear successor in place.

U.S. administration officials took encouragement from the quick responses from China and also Russia, in particular. The two nations, North Korean allies, joined in yesterday's condemnations. The Russian reaction was "firmer" than after the last nuclear test and the Chinese reacted faster with condemnation than after the April missile test, administration officials said. Both countries also joined in the Security Council's unanimous condemnation of North Korea during an emergency meeting yesterday.

But analysts are skeptical that China's response means it will be more open to sanctions than in the past. It has traditionally been more concerned about regime instability on its border than nuclear weapons.

"There are a number of things going on here and there are a mixture of motives," one senior administration official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity. North Korea is "developing its arsenal, following its historic style of dealing with the United States and others by engaging in acts of bravado, and dealing with its own questions of succession," the official said.

In any case, North Korea once again has forced its way to the top of the foreign policy agenda of a White House that largely had been focused on reaching out to Iran and dealing with the crisis in Pakistan and Afghanistan. While North Korea is an isolated, xenophobic nation, accepting it as a nuclear power is unthinkable for many in the region and could spur U.S. allies such as Japan and South Korea to go nuclear.

"The Obama team came in thinking the problem is a lack of engagement," said Michael J. Green, who dealt with the North Korea issue as a top White House aide in the Bush administration. "They now realize that it is a lack of pressure. They are determined to reteach North Korea good manners."

Obama inherited a sputtering multilateral diplomatic process on North Korea from the Bush administration, and initially U.S. officials suggested they would jump-start the talks with the offer of direct, high-level bilateral discussions. Still there were suspicions in Asia and Washington that the president intended to only manage concerns over North Korea's nuclear weapons, not resolve them, when he appointed a part-time special envoy to handle the talks. Senior officials during the transition concluded there were few good options for dealing with the North, but that downshifting of priorities could also have irritated Pyongyang.

Within weeks, North Korea spurned the administration's offer of direct talks and in April tested a long-range rocket. When the United States led an effort at the U.N. Security Council condemning the rocket test, North Korea angrily responded by suggesting it soon would test a nuclear weapon in order to strengthen its "deterrent."

The administration response to the North's rhetoric has been inconsistent, perhaps in part because the Senate, leaving a key policymaking role for North Korea unfilled, still has not confirmed Obama's nominee for assistant secretary of state for East Asia, Kurt Campbell. Other key players include James B. Steinberg, the deputy secretary of state; Stephen W. Bosworth, the special envoy; Jeffrey Bader, the top Asia specialist at the White House; and Gary Samore, the White House nonproliferation director.

Bosworth, who also retained his job as dean of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, told reporters just days before the rocket test that "pressure is not the most productive line of approach" in dealing with North Korea and that talks probably would resume after "a cooling-off period."

But Samore recently told a conference at the Brookings Institution that "it's very clear that the North Koreans want to pick a fight. They want to kill the six-party talks," the six-nation negotiating forum — made up of the United States, North Korea, China, Japan, South Korea and Russia — that has met since 2003 to try to resolve the issue.

Samore predicted that North Korea would conduct a test but that the North would be forced back to negotiations within nine months. "We'll just wait," he said.

Clinton, meanwhile, gave an entirely different message in recent congressional testimony, telling lawmakers that "at this point it seems implausible, if not impossible, the North Koreans will return to the six-party talks and begin to disable their nuclear capacity again."

Setting the right tone will be critical now, analysts said, because the Bush administration frequently veered between tough talk and concessions, largely because top officials were split on the right response. Bush initially labeled North Korea part of an "axis of evil" and let lapse a deal that had kept North Korea's nuclear reactor shuttered.

During the Bush years, North Korea built a stockpile of plutonium that could fuel at least a six weapons until it finally conducted its first test in 2006. The U.N. Security Council backed Bush's demands for a tough response, but then the president abruptly dropped efforts to impose a new sanctions regime after other nations resisted. He instead shifted to intense diplomacy, including offering concessions such as dropping North Korea from the list of state sponsors of terrorism, if it began to disable its nuclear program.

Democrats had long criticized Bush for not engaging more with North Korea and applauded his change of heart. Indeed, during the presidential campaign Obama supported removing North Korea from the terrorism list while his Republican rival John McCain was critical. Bush made the concession after vague assurances from Pyongyang that it would agree to a verification plan; North Korea later denied it had made any such agreement.

John R. Bolton, the former U.N. ambassador who has long advocated a tough approach to the North, faulted the Obama administration for expecting that the six-nation talks could be revived after North Korea reneged on the deal with Bush.

"There is plenty of blame to go around" for the current situation, he said. "The real moment of truth now is how the Obama administration responds to the test."

Bolton argued for placing North Korea back on the terrorism list, imposing sweeping sanctions and seeking to expel North Korea from the United Nations — in effect daring China to veto such tough measures.

But David Albright, a former U.N. weapons inspector and president of the Institute for Science and International Security in Washington, said the response should not be new sanctions but instead better diplomacy. He said he found the administration's response to North Korea's provocations over the past few months "very frustrating," with one senior official even privately joking to him that perhaps North Korea would use up its stash of plutonium through repeated testing.

"This has required a high-level effort rather than just management of a problem," Albright said. Renegotiating a treaty with Russia "was more urgent to them than North Korea," he said, adding: "That was a big mistake."

Victor Cha, the deputy negotiator to the six-party talks in the Bush administration, said Bush had trouble winning broad support for sanctions because many around the world blamed his administration for the crisis in the first place and suspected he secretly was trying to topple the government.

"No one in the world blames this on Obama," Cha said. "They carry none of the baggage of the Bush administration, and that could work to the United States's advantage. I think North Korea underestimates that."

Crisco
05-26-2009, 01:32 PM
Better lace up your boots boys. With an army 1.5 million strong and our forces spread thin as it is we might have to get out our draft cards again


:fighting0008: :fighting0008: :fighting0008: :fighting0023: :fighting0023: :fighting0023: :fighting0023: :fighting0008: :fighting0008: :fighting0008: :fighting0023: :mad0233: :mad0233: :mad0233: :mad0233:

J.B.
05-26-2009, 04:09 PM
Better lace up your boots boys. With an army 1.5 million strong and our forces spread thin as it is we might have to get out our draft cards again

That's pushing it a bit, but if the time comes I will gladly fight for this nation. :punch:

Miss Foxy
05-26-2009, 04:26 PM
That's pushing it a bit, but if the time comes I will gladly fight for this nation. :punch:
Me too!! :cool:

NateR
05-26-2009, 04:30 PM
Whatever Obama does, we can rest assured that it will be pointless and ineffective. Especially with a Clinton as his Secretary of State.

Hughes_GOAT
05-26-2009, 04:35 PM
not me!

1) i'm too old.
2) i wouldn't pass the physical because of my degenerative disc condition in my neck and lumbar area.
3) they wouldn't want me back after getting Admin Separated.

Miss Foxy
05-26-2009, 04:39 PM
not me!

1) i'm too old.
2) i wouldn't pass the physical because of my degenerative disc condition in my neck and lumbar area.
3) they wouldn't want me back after getting Admin Separated.
Didnt they raise the age? Some recruiter was telling me that recently.. Come on Goat we can take out some Koreans!

Hughes_GOAT
05-26-2009, 04:42 PM
Didnt they raise the age? Some recruiter was telling me that recently.. Come on Goat we can take out some Koreans!
i don't know?

rockdawg21
05-26-2009, 04:52 PM
Didnt they raise the age? Some recruiter was telling me that recently.. Come on Goat we can take out some Koreans!
If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to kill Englishmen?

Crisco
05-26-2009, 05:00 PM
If they started the draft I would just enlist right away. Get stuck in some crappy drafted group.

Miss Foxy
05-26-2009, 05:03 PM
If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to kill Englishmen?
Yes! LOl.. I can feel Dave coming along...........:cry:

logrus
05-26-2009, 05:31 PM
The world better wake up and take note about whats going on in N.K not just the U.S. Its shouldn't be about what Obama is going to do but what the rest of the world is going to do.

Crisco
05-26-2009, 05:33 PM
The world better wake up and take note about whats going on in N.K not just the U.S. Its shouldn't be about what Obama is going to do but what the rest of the world is going to do.

The rest of the world is doing exactly what they always do. Asking us what they should do.

NateR
05-26-2009, 05:50 PM
The rest of the world is doing exactly what they always do. Asking us what they should do.

:laugh: Exactly!

Crisco
05-26-2009, 05:57 PM
:laugh: Exactly!

That is the first time I've ever made you laugh lol. Atleast with me and not at me lol.

rearnakedchoke
05-26-2009, 06:27 PM
not me!

1) i'm too old.
2) i wouldn't pass the physical because of my degenerative disc condition in my neck and lumbar area.
3) they wouldn't want me back after getting Admin Separated.


you forgot something else, but i guess you haven't heard about the whole "don't ask, don't tell" thing

rearnakedchoke
05-26-2009, 06:28 PM
If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to kill Englishmen?
ahh , great movie quote ... (you were quoting a movie right? LOL)

Crisco
05-26-2009, 06:33 PM
you forgot something else, but i guess you haven't heard about the whole "don't ask, don't tell" thing

"Okay folks enough with the gay jokes."

VCURamFan
05-26-2009, 06:45 PM
"Okay folks enough with the gay jokes."Thanks, Shady.

rockdawg21
05-26-2009, 06:49 PM
ahh , great movie quote ... (you were quoting a movie right? LOL)
LOL, was hoping somebody would get it! :laugh:

One of my favs!

rockdawg21
05-26-2009, 06:50 PM
The rest of the world is doing exactly what they always do. Asking us what they should do.
Yes, and we're doing exactly what we should do, talking about it on a MMA forum. :laugh:

Crisco
05-26-2009, 06:53 PM
Yes, and we're doing exactly what we should do, talking about it on a MMA forum. :laugh:

The world is as it should be.

I say we send in the air force. Whipe out every single vestige of Nuclear capability we can find and tell N. Korea if they even think about crossing into the south we will systematically whipe out every major party member they have with use of sea born cruise missiles.

CAVEMAN
05-26-2009, 07:09 PM
My guess.....there will be more sanctions....which probably won't work!

Crisco
05-26-2009, 07:13 PM
My guess.....there will be more sanctions....which probably won't work!

Yea. Sanction are bull****. The only thing communism understands is getting smacked in the face by capitalists.

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 08:08 PM
He wont mount Troops if thats what your worried about.

First He will push for greater sanctions on North Korea, we shall then see better where China and Russia Stand. Russia gets paranoid, if they actually think North Korea are doing anything and likely to be threatening, they will act on trying to do something to stop that thread. China might be concerned not that North Korea becomes nuclear, but that there is the potential for the North Korean Government to become a terrorist organisation...with their leader ill...if any militia are planning a coup....now would be the time to do it. This might mean the best course of action is to do nothing, and watch North Korea fall into a momentary civil war...with any luck, the revolution will use the weapons on their own government, and they'll wipe themselves out :laugh:

Then South Korea can invade, conviscate the weapons, and give them to the United States for safe keeping :ninja:

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 08:17 PM
If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to kill Englishmen?
:ninja: you could try... :ninja:

:laugh:

NateR
05-26-2009, 08:40 PM
I don't think most people understand just how severe an armed conflict with North Korea would be. If people can't handle losing 5000 American troops in Iraq over the course of 6 years, then what are they going to do when we start losing thousands of soldiers every week in Korea?

When it comes to nuclear weapons, I think we need to employ the same strategy we did against WW2 Japan. Strike first and strike hard. Don't even give them a chance to develop the technology. Send one nuke over to Pyongyang, their capital and largest city, and wipe it off the map. I'm sure we'll find that the surviving North Koreans will be much more cooperative.

Hughes_GOAT
05-26-2009, 08:41 PM
you forgot something else, but i guess you haven't heard about the whole "don't ask, don't tell" thing
nice projection there :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
05-26-2009, 09:04 PM
i'd be more worried about China, those sneaky bastards can't be trusted ... really, the N. Koreans aren't really a threat, they are just trying to stay relevent ... US should bomb China for all those lead containing toys ....

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 09:12 PM
I don't think most people understand just how severe an armed conflict with North Korea would be. If people can't handle losing 5000 American troops in Iraq over the course of 6 years, then what are they going to do when we start losing thousands of soldiers every week in Korea?

When it comes to nuclear weapons, I think we need to employ the same strategy we did against WW2 Japan. Strike first and strike hard. Don't even give them a chance to develop the technology. Send one nuke over to Pyongyang, their capital and largest city, and wipe it off the map. I'm sure we'll find that the surviving North Koreans will be much more cooperative.
I'm not sure you find Russia or China would be. Dont complain if in such a scenario you see Washington DC also vanish from the map.

Your forgetting that times have changed since the whole world backed your use of a weapon against Japan. Virtually noone else had anything to launch back at you, today the same is not true. Its also grossly missinterpreted that your strategy in Japan was "strike first and strike hard" That might have been Japans Strategy when they Bombed Pearl Harbour, but it was not your strategy when bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki. For a start, in that scenario, Japan more or less acted alone. The United States didnt make a Unilateral Move in hitting Japan, the move was sanctioned by the entire world AFTER the fall of the Nazi German Forces. Your Actions ENDED a war that, for the rest of us had been going on for about 6 years by then...

So spare us the "Strike first and Strike Hard" philosophy, sinse you dont need to be qualified in military strategy to know that doesnt reflect the US and Japan in World War Two...and thankfully, your Government has a little more knowledge about the INTERNATIONAL world then you, enough to know...you dont drop an Atom Bomb on a City as a first strike and expect to get away with it.

I can tell you now. The World will not stand by America on another Unilateral, pre-emptive strike. Especially not one involving Weapons of Mass Distruction...the VERY thing you try and stop other nations doing to you, you propose to do yourself!! I'll tell you something else, the Americans in authority are well aware of that fact Nathan, even if you are not.

If you must strike first, there is nothing stopping you doing what Israel constantly does, and simply target the nuclear Stations. I'm so bloody dissapointed in you for saying what you just said. :sad:

Miss Foxy
05-26-2009, 09:16 PM
I'm not sure you find Russia or China would be. Dont complain if in such a scenario you see Washington DC also vanish from the map.

Your forgetting that times have changed since the whole world backed your use of a weapon against Japan. Virtually noone else had anything to launch back at you, today the same is not true. Its also grossly missinterpreted that your strategy in Japan was "strike first and strike hard" That might have been Japans Strategy when they Bombed Pearl Harbour, but it was not your strategy when bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki. For a start, in that scenario, Japan more or less acted alone. The United States didnt make a Unilateral Move in hitting Japan, the move was sanctioned by the entire world AFTER the fall of the Nazi German Forces. Your Actions ENDED a war that, for the rest of us had been going on for about 6 years by then...

So spare us the "Strike first and Strike Hard" philosophy, sinse you dont need to be qualified in military strategy to know that doesnt reflect the US and Japan in World War Two...and thankfully, your Government has a little more knowledge about the INTERNATIONAL world then you, enough to know...you dont drop an Atom Bomb on a City as a first strike and expect to get away with it.

I can tell you now. The World will not stand by America on another Unilateral, pre-emptive strike. Especially not one involving Weapons of Mass Distruction...the VERY thing you try and stop other nations doing to you, you propose to do yourself!! I'll tell you something else, the Americans in authority are well aware of that fact Nathan, even if you are not.

If you must strike first, there is nothing stopping you doing what Israel constantly does, and simply target the nuclear Stations. I'm so bloody dissapointed in you for saying what you just said. :sad:
Dave you simply don't understand an American point of view. If we sit back and watch it all go down they will attack us like the Japanese did to Pearl Harbor. If we were to use WMD it would definitely be well worth it. Its not like we are just attacking to attack. They have been warned and warned and they are as big of threat to your homeland as they are to us. :angry:

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 09:16 PM
i'd be more worried about China, those sneaky bastards can't be trusted ... really, the N. Koreans aren't really a threat, they are just trying to stay relevent ... US should bomb China for all those lead containing toys ....
I think so aswell. I think they are just trying to gain some ransom. I'm sure they can be bought into dropping their programme, given the right stimulas by the International Community. They just want to try and blackmail...they arent serious about attacking, because their own allied basis is to weak.

Give it time...I call civil war if their leader doesnt get better soon.

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 09:24 PM
Dave you simply don't understand an American point of view. If we sit back and watch it all go down they will attack us like the Japanese did to Pearl Harbor. If we were to use WMD it would definitely be well worth it. Its not like we are just attacking to attack. They have been warned and warned and they are as big of threat to your homeland as they are to us. :angry:
WTF??? Japan didnt one day suddenly decide to attack you. The Rest of the whole world had been at war FOR YEARS. North Korea are hardly the same threat as a force out to conqure the world.

You dont know what the motivation of North Korea is, you havent got a clue what they are, or are not, likely to do. This is why knowledge of the International community is so important. In many ways you guys are STILL as issolated now as you were before Pearl Harbour. Before then you just didnt want to know, now you assume you know everything, and dont need diplomacy, and dont need International Law, yet you may not know anything about who is in alliance with who, and who ARE the threats and who are NOT the threats.

Going after Korea like Nathan suggested, is like a tenfold worse version of going after Iraq. Its not Iraq you need to worry about, its Iran, and its not Korea you need to worry about its China and The Russians

Noone must EVER use WMD on another Soverignty EVER again....and if they do, GOD help them if it isnt done strictly in defence. Pre-emptive is NOT defence

Crisco
05-26-2009, 09:28 PM
I think so aswell. I think they are just trying to gain some ransom. I'm sure they can be bought into dropping their programme, given the right stimulas by the International Community. They just want to try and blackmail...they arent serious about attacking, because their own allied basis is to weak.

Give it time...I call civil war if their leader doesnt get better soon.

Doubtfull.

One of the generals will take power.

No one will make a move until kim is dad.

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 09:32 PM
...and I want to make this quite clear. I am not saying that there shouldnt be an armed response to Korea. I am certainly not condoning their right to have nuclear capabilities. But I am Eqaully not supporting a Unilateral Move by the United States (not that I think your Government has any such plans at this time) I am NOT supporting Pre-Emptive Strikes involving Nuclear Weapons...The Americans already have Starwars...the Koreans...even if they did Launch an attack on you, a direct, nuclear attack with multiple warheads...those Misslies would never make it half way across the globe

and I Will not, condone the use of Weapons of Mass Distruction to attack another country, I am horrified that someone seriously suggested it. Lets not forget that punishing THE PEOPLE rather then the Governments involved is just creating piles of dead bodies.

I wish there had been another way with Japan in World War Two...it may have needed to be done...but if you dont recongise it as a sheer act of evil also, to vapourise that many innocent people who are trapped under a tyranious Government, regardless of how needed it was...then you dont understand the power of what your talking about.

NateR
05-26-2009, 09:35 PM
Nuke 'em! :laugh:

NateR
05-26-2009, 09:37 PM
i'd be more worried about China, those sneaky bastards can't be trusted ... really, the N. Koreans aren't really a threat, they are just trying to stay relevent ... US should bomb China for all those lead containing toys ....

You clearly don't know anything about the history of the Korean conflict. Saying that North Korea is no threat to the US is just unbelievably ignorant.

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 09:37 PM
Nuke 'em! :laugh:
:angry: I sware you do it deliberately to wind me up sometimes. :rolleyes:

NateR
05-26-2009, 09:38 PM
Dont complain if in such a scenario you see Washington DC also vanish from the map.

No big loss right now. Try asking me again after 2012. :)

NateR
05-26-2009, 09:39 PM
:angry: I sware you do it deliberately to wind me up sometimes. :rolleyes:

And we can wipe Beijing and Moscow off the map too, if they get their panties in a bunch about it.

Crisco
05-26-2009, 09:42 PM
And we can wipe Beijing and Moscow off the map too, if they get their panties in a bunch about it.

Don't forget pakistan and afghanistan.

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 09:45 PM
No big loss right now. Try asking me again after 2012. :)
:laugh: Nathan!!!!!! :laugh:

You cant say that!! :laugh: :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
05-26-2009, 10:00 PM
You clearly don't know anything about the history of the Korean conflict. Saying that North Korea is no threat to the US is just unbelievably ignorant.
you are giving them too much credit .... if you think they could possibly have the capability to fire a nuke towards US soil and make contact before the US has any clue, then you are not only giving Korea too much credit, but your own country not enough credit ...

NateR
05-26-2009, 10:08 PM
you are giving them too much credit .... if you think they could possibly have the capability to fire a nuke towards US soil and make contact before the US has any clue, then you are not only giving Korea too much credit, but your own country not enough credit ...

Even without nuclear weapons, they are a major threat to the world. There's a reason why that war has been in a stalemate for over 50 years. There's also a reason why the American troops stationed in Korea are called the "speed bump of South Korea." Our military is prepared for all 45,000 of those troops to be wiped out within days of a full North Korean invasion. Plus, the United States has underestimated North Korea before. Just do your research on Task Force Smith. So to say that they are no threat is us is a very dangerous position to take and a stupid comment from a historical perspective.

NateR
05-26-2009, 10:36 PM
:laugh: Nathan!!!!!! :laugh:

You cant say that!! :laugh: :laugh:

What did I say? You're the one who threatened to bomb Washington DC. :ninja:

:tongue0011:

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 10:43 PM
What did I say? You're the one who threatened to bomb Washington DC. :ninja:

:tongue0011:
You said "Go ahead...I dont care for the government until the next General, anyway" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You cant say that about the American Administration, even if it is Democrat :blink:

logrus
05-26-2009, 10:55 PM
The rest of the world is doing exactly what they always do. Asking us what they should do.

LMAO, then they will back us until the crap hits the fan and then it will only be us and the Brits again.

Tyburn
05-26-2009, 11:01 PM
LMAO, then they will back us until the crap hits the fan and then it will only be us and the Brits again.
:laugh: :laugh: nothing new there then :laugh: :laugh:

Crisco
05-27-2009, 02:37 PM
Atleast we are in good company.

Tyburn
05-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Atleast we are in good company.
thats true :w00t:

que
05-28-2009, 12:19 AM
we test nuclear weapons all the time and have been for decades, but that doesn't mean other nations should nuke us back for doing it. we can't just nuke them off the map for doing what we and alot of other countries have been doing for decades. the only thing that matters is if they strike us or show or give us direct intention that they are going to strike us. if they strike us, they will be struck harder and won't have a chance to strike again. they know that. and that's why they will never strike us. i guarantee that. so settle down boys and girls and don't let the media hype get you too worked up over this.

J.B.
05-28-2009, 12:32 AM
we test nuclear weapons all the time and have been for decades, but that doesn't mean other nations should nuke us back for doing it. we can't just nuke them off the map for doing what we and alot of other countries have been doing for decades. the only thing that matters is if they strike us or show or give us direct intention that they are going to strike us. if they strike us, they will be struck harder and won't have a chance to strike again. they know that. and that's why they will never strike us. i guarantee that. so settle down boys and girls and don't let the media hype get you too worked up over this.

What about striking our direct allies, and places were we already have American soldiers, like South Korea or Japan? Kim Jong Ill came out today threatening to attack South Korea for siding with us.

Even your precious Obama and....

C L I N T O N
http://www.seti.housenet.org/pics/kodos.gif

know better than to appear weak. Thats why they have come out basically telling Kim Jong to slow his F'N roll.

and if you get that Simpsons reference you are a nerd

NateR
05-28-2009, 01:02 AM
we test nuclear weapons all the time and have been for decades, but that doesn't mean other nations should nuke us back for doing it. we can't just nuke them off the map for doing what we and alot of other countries have been doing for decades. the only thing that matters is if they strike us or show or give us direct intention that they are going to strike us. if they strike us, they will be struck harder and won't have a chance to strike again. they know that. and that's why they will never strike us. i guarantee that. so settle down boys and girls and don't let the media hype get you too worked up over this.

Wrong, the US discontinued atmospheric nuclear testing in 1963 and we haven't tested an underground nuclear weapon since 1992. So, claiming that the United States sets off nuclear bombs "all the time" is 100% false.

medic92
05-28-2009, 02:25 AM
There's really only one solution to this problem...nuke the moon!

A Realistic Plan for World Peace
a.k.a
Nuke the Moon (http://www.imao.us)
by Frank J. (originally written August 15th, 2002)

World peace cannot be achieved by sitting around on our duffs singing hippy songs to the moon. Peace can only be achieved through excessive acts of seemingly mindless violence. Who do bullies pick on in the playground? The giant, crazy looking guy who looks ready to snap and kill the person nearest or some harmless looking weenie who appears to do anything to avoid conflict? People pick on the weenie because people like to start fights they think they can win. In the same way, people will continue to attack America and our interests when they get the idea that they can piss off America without us immediately eradicating them and everyone around them in the most painful way possible.

Now, if I were president, here's what I would do. Next time some country does something we don't take a pining too, such as supporting terrorism or speaking French, I'd pick the dumbest reason for an attack, e.g., "A 'q' should always be followed by a 'u'. I don't make the rules, Iraq, but I will enforce them." The more irrational you look, the more scared the country will be that you will really hit them hard. I'd then give the country the old one-week notice until bombing starts. Then, after just twenty-four hours, I'd start bombing. When the stupid dictator calls to complain, I'd say, "I meant one week max. Oh, and by the way, ground troops - one week." I'm sure that would be enough to capitulate the average evildoer, but some extra measures could help intimidate others as well. Like, instead of just saturation bombing a city, super-saturation bomb it. After annihilating everything until nothing but ash is left, I'd nuke the ashes. It's that extra bit of extremely disproportionate use of force that makes other countries start to wonder if America "has it all together" and really worrying who we'll lash out against next.

Of course, Europe will start complaining, and Europe's bad mouthing of America gives comfort to our enemies. I mean, those guys values are so messed up they think calling someone a "cowboy" is an insult. Best idea would be to assassinate the leader of the first European country we hear a peep out of. This will probably make us look evil, though, when we want the image of crazy and violent. So, when the Europeans ask why, I'd claim to never have heard of the person: "I didn't even know France had a leader. Sure it wasn't suicide? Yeah, committing suicide with a sniper rifle would be hard, but not impossible if you had a five-hundred yard length of string to work the trigger." Assassination does seem a little extreme, but we're talking about Europe. I mean, what are they going to do other than quickly capitulate under a mild threat of force. We'll probably start seeing, "We all love America!" parades in bids to not be our next targets.

Now the world will be pretty convinced that America is frick'n nuts and just looking for a fight, but we need to really ingrain it into everyone's conscious so that no one will ever even contemplate crossing us. This requires making good use of our nukes. I know, nukes can kill millions of people, but they sure aren't doing anyone any good just sitting around. I mean, how many years has it been since we last dropped a bomb on someone? No one even thinks we'll actually use one now. Of course, using nukes shouldn't be done haphazardly; all uses have to be well planned out because the explosions are so cool looking that we'll want to give the press plenty of notice so they can get pictures of the mushroom cloud from all sorts of different angles. But what to nuke? Well, usually the idea is populated cities, but, by the beliefs of my morally superior religion, killing is wrong. So why can't we be more creative than nuking people. My idea is to nuke the moon; just say we thought we saw moon people or something. There is no one actually there to kill (unless we time it poorly) and everyone in the world could see the results. And all the other countries would exclaim, "Holy @$#%! They are nuking the moon! America has gone insane! I better go eat at McDonald's before they think I don't like them."

But why stop there. We've got like tons of national parks; we surely wouldn't miss just one if we nuked it. Our excuse will be that we heard a drug dealer was hiding there. Then the foreign nations would be like, "Sacre bleu! These Americans are nuking themselves! Surely they will think nothing of bombing us! Let's adapt their vapid culture as our own so they might consider us one of them."

Now all other countries will be completely freaked out and never even dream of messing with us. They'll say the name of America with hushed whispers and always praise us in public for fear of reprisal. We'd be like an Old Testament god to them; perhaps they would even start worshiping us - actually, we should make that a condition of favored trade status. Not only will we have ensured peace for ourselves, but we can also now easily end any conflict between other countries. We see two nations warring over some territory, all we'll have to do is say, "Hey, break it up," and they'll be racing to concede to each other rather than get on the bad side of the "crazy, homicidal Americans." And, if people are being oppressed by an evil government, all we'll have to do is say, "Hey you! Stop being communist!" and the next day they'll have elections, capitalism, and free-press to keep from having their country turned into a parking lot. It will be that easy to motivate our fellow man, because there is hardly anything people treasure more than not being annihilated.

Now all that's needed to keep peace is to come up with new and creative ways of looking insane and belligerent without actually harming anyone. Missile defense is probably a good step in that direction. Next time some country steps out of line, we launch a nuclear missile at them. Just seconds before it hits, we blow it up with our missile defense so that everyone there sees the huge explosion in the sky. Then the president would just call up their leader and say, "Hey, we lost sight of our SDI test. Did you see if it worked?"

By now, you're probably saying, "Great idea. But how to do we pay for all these random acts of violence?" Just create an "Other Country Tax", a tax for being a country other than the U.S. After implementing my plan, all the countries will be eager to pay the money, and probably add a nice tip to win favor.

So there you have it, a real peace plan that could actually work. Warmongering pacifists want us to act all nice such that countries think we're rational and won't kill everyone with a blind fury, thus making it possible they might actually attack us and draw us into a war. But, if America follows my idea and lashes out at the slightest provocation with unmeasured vengeance, there can be peace. So there's the choice: either be a homicidal maniac thus ensuring peace and love in the world, or be some pacifist hippy while the streets flow with the blood of the innocent.

Mac
05-28-2009, 03:01 AM
There's really only one solution to this problem...nuke the moon!

A Realistic Plan for World Peace
a.k.a
Nuke the Moon (http://www.imao.us)
by Frank J. (originally written August 15th, 2002)

World peace cannot be achieved by sitting around on our duffs singing hippy songs to the moon. Peace can only be achieved through excessive acts of seemingly mindless violence. Who do bullies pick on in the playground? The giant, crazy looking guy who looks ready to snap and kill the person nearest or some harmless looking weenie who appears to do anything to avoid conflict? People pick on the weenie because people like to start fights they think they can win. In the same way, people will continue to attack America and our interests when they get the idea that they can piss off America without us immediately eradicating them and everyone around them in the most painful way possible.

Now, if I were president, here's what I would do. Next time some country does something we don't take a pining too, such as supporting terrorism or speaking French, I'd pick the dumbest reason for an attack, e.g., "A 'q' should always be followed by a 'u'. I don't make the rules, Iraq, but I will enforce them." The more irrational you look, the more scared the country will be that you will really hit them hard. I'd then give the country the old one-week notice until bombing starts. Then, after just twenty-four hours, I'd start bombing. When the stupid dictator calls to complain, I'd say, "I meant one week max. Oh, and by the way, ground troops - one week." I'm sure that would be enough to capitulate the average evildoer, but some extra measures could help intimidate others as well. Like, instead of just saturation bombing a city, super-saturation bomb it. After annihilating everything until nothing but ash is left, I'd nuke the ashes. It's that extra bit of extremely disproportionate use of force that makes other countries start to wonder if America "has it all together" and really worrying who we'll lash out against next.

Of course, Europe will start complaining, and Europe's bad mouthing of America gives comfort to our enemies. I mean, those guys values are so messed up they think calling someone a "cowboy" is an insult. Best idea would be to assassinate the leader of the first European country we hear a peep out of. This will probably make us look evil, though, when we want the image of crazy and violent. So, when the Europeans ask why, I'd claim to never have heard of the person: "I didn't even know France had a leader. Sure it wasn't suicide? Yeah, committing suicide with a sniper rifle would be hard, but not impossible if you had a five-hundred yard length of string to work the trigger." Assassination does seem a little extreme, but we're talking about Europe. I mean, what are they going to do other than quickly capitulate under a mild threat of force. We'll probably start seeing, "We all love America!" parades in bids to not be our next targets.

Now the world will be pretty convinced that America is frick'n nuts and just looking for a fight, but we need to really ingrain it into everyone's conscious so that no one will ever even contemplate crossing us. This requires making good use of our nukes. I know, nukes can kill millions of people, but they sure aren't doing anyone any good just sitting around. I mean, how many years has it been since we last dropped a bomb on someone? No one even thinks we'll actually use one now. Of course, using nukes shouldn't be done haphazardly; all uses have to be well planned out because the explosions are so cool looking that we'll want to give the press plenty of notice so they can get pictures of the mushroom cloud from all sorts of different angles. But what to nuke? Well, usually the idea is populated cities, but, by the beliefs of my morally superior religion, killing is wrong. So why can't we be more creative than nuking people. My idea is to nuke the moon; just say we thought we saw moon people or something. There is no one actually there to kill (unless we time it poorly) and everyone in the world could see the results. And all the other countries would exclaim, "Holy @$#%! They are nuking the moon! America has gone insane! I better go eat at McDonald's before they think I don't like them."

But why stop there. We've got like tons of national parks; we surely wouldn't miss just one if we nuked it. Our excuse will be that we heard a drug dealer was hiding there. Then the foreign nations would be like, "Sacre bleu! These Americans are nuking themselves! Surely they will think nothing of bombing us! Let's adapt their vapid culture as our own so they might consider us one of them."

Now all other countries will be completely freaked out and never even dream of messing with us. They'll say the name of America with hushed whispers and always praise us in public for fear of reprisal. We'd be like an Old Testament god to them; perhaps they would even start worshiping us - actually, we should make that a condition of favored trade status. Not only will we have ensured peace for ourselves, but we can also now easily end any conflict between other countries. We see two nations warring over some territory, all we'll have to do is say, "Hey, break it up," and they'll be racing to concede to each other rather than get on the bad side of the "crazy, homicidal Americans." And, if people are being oppressed by an evil government, all we'll have to do is say, "Hey you! Stop being communist!" and the next day they'll have elections, capitalism, and free-press to keep from having their country turned into a parking lot. It will be that easy to motivate our fellow man, because there is hardly anything people treasure more than not being annihilated.

Now all that's needed to keep peace is to come up with new and creative ways of looking insane and belligerent without actually harming anyone. Missile defense is probably a good step in that direction. Next time some country steps out of line, we launch a nuclear missile at them. Just seconds before it hits, we blow it up with our missile defense so that everyone there sees the huge explosion in the sky. Then the president would just call up their leader and say, "Hey, we lost sight of our SDI test. Did you see if it worked?"

By now, you're probably saying, "Great idea. But how to do we pay for all these random acts of violence?" Just create an "Other Country Tax", a tax for being a country other than the U.S. After implementing my plan, all the countries will be eager to pay the money, and probably add a nice tip to win favor.

So there you have it, a real peace plan that could actually work. Warmongering pacifists want us to act all nice such that countries think we're rational and won't kill everyone with a blind fury, thus making it possible they might actually attack us and draw us into a war. But, if America follows my idea and lashes out at the slightest provocation with unmeasured vengeance, there can be peace. So there's the choice: either be a homicidal maniac thus ensuring peace and love in the world, or be some pacifist hippy while the streets flow with the blood of the innocent.



HA HA HA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!

ufcfan2
05-28-2009, 03:03 AM
This is what we need:
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt291/russ72/team1.jpg

NateR
05-28-2009, 04:38 AM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Barada73/burningman.gif

Tyburn
05-28-2009, 11:40 AM
Okay...NOW we worry.

So the United States said that it would make sure that vessils around Korea are not doing anything they shouldnt, very simple searches going on.

Korea today pronounced the ceasefire against South Korea as Null and Void, it also said that if the United States decides to search on of its Vessils it will consider that an act of War, and will use arms in retaliation

:unsure-1:

NateR
05-28-2009, 01:47 PM
Okay...NOW we worry.

So the United States said that it would make sure that vessils around Korea are not doing anything they shouldnt, very simple searches going on.

Korea today pronounced the ceasefire against South Korea as Null and Void, it also said that if the United States decides to search on of its Vessils it will consider that an act of War, and will use arms in retaliation

:unsure-1:

That is definitely something to worry about. I can't recall any point in the last 56 years where North Korea has claimed the ceasefire null and void. Unfortunately, we've got the worst possible leadership in America right now for a situation like this.

Those people who claim that we have nothing to worry about from North Korea really have no idea what they are talking about. I spent a year in South Korea running a retransmission station (one of only three links in a chain that provided FM radio communications across the entire South Korean peninsula) and I can tell you that EVERYONE in command over there takes North Korea very seriously.

Crisco
05-28-2009, 02:38 PM
Time to knock out their infastructure with our airforce.

Miss Foxy
05-28-2009, 03:38 PM
Time to knock out their infastructure with our airforce.
Yup and play Battleship w/our great NAVY.. Ummm unload our awesome MARINES.. and finally end it with our ARMY!!

Tyburn
05-28-2009, 04:23 PM
That is definitely something to worry about. I can't recall any point in the last 56 years where North Korea has claimed the ceasefire null and void. Unfortunately, we've got the worst possible leadership in America right now for a situation like this.

Those people who claim that we have nothing to worry about from North Korea really have no idea what they are talking about. I spent a year in South Korea running a retransmission station (one of only three links in a chain that provided FM radio communications across the entire South Korean peninsula) and I can tell you that EVERYONE in command over there takes North Korea very seriously.
Apparently, they are saying they no longer hold to that treaty...and...well, its quite possible that means they are planning some kinda invasion of South Korea.

It wasnt front page...but it was only the second page in on the newspaper...I cant see it on an online source yet...I'll try get a copy of what I read for you...but suddenly...Yeah...say Nathan...do you still have that Nuke you were on about before :unsure-1:

Tyburn
05-28-2009, 04:32 PM
South Korean and US troops have gone on higher alert after North Korea said it was scrapping the treaty that halted the Korean War more than 50 years ago.

Seoul's defence ministry said it would increase reconnaissance operations over North Korea.

North Korea recently tested a nuclear device and several short-range missiles but no significant troop movements within the country have been reported.

Pyongyang has blamed its decision on South Korea's decision to join a US-led initiative to search ships for nuclear weapons, calling it a "declaration of war".

"Any hostile act against our peaceful vessels, including search and seizure, will be considered an unpardonable infringement on our sovereignty," said a spokesman for the North's army.

"We will immediately respond with a powerful military strike."

CAVEMAN
05-28-2009, 07:48 PM
We have an "Uncle Tom" in office right now and the rest of the world knows it. I would almost bet that North Korea is not the only country that flexes their muscle. In the next few months, I look for Iran and China to do the very same thing! And the real frightening fact is the rest of the world knows that financially, America cannot handle another war right now. This adminstration has spent so much money already that if we even attempted fighting another war our economy would collapse! All I can say is that we are living in very interesting times!

Hughes_GOAT
05-28-2009, 08:28 PM
well if we're snooping around their ships, no wonder they're pissed. hell, we got mad at China for not letting one of our spy planes, well, spy :laugh:

J.B.
05-28-2009, 08:40 PM
We have an "Uncle Tom" in office right now and the rest of the world knows it.

Wildly inappropriate and completely false....

Crisco
05-28-2009, 08:48 PM
Wildly inappropriate and completely false....

Agreed.

rockdawg21
05-28-2009, 08:59 PM
well if we're snooping around their ships, no wonder they're pissed. hell, we got mad at China for not letting one of our spy planes, well, spy :laugh:
And you see a problem with that? :punch:

Tyburn
05-28-2009, 09:03 PM
well if we're snooping around their ships, no wonder they're pissed. hell, we got mad at China for not letting one of our spy planes, well, spy :laugh:
The United States often does unexpected searches on all sorts of vessils, all over the place. If they act on South Korean Authority, then they are doing nothing wrong....Usually its a simple search and thats it...its only a big deal if North Korea make it a big deal...OR the Americans actually do find Nukes on a merchant ship...but...I dont think Korea is selling, They are more likely to be stockpiling...they are just being pissy

I think America should board one of their ships and find out if they are for real....IF North Korea retaliate...it will only be against South Korea...not against the United States...its worth the gamble :laugh:

Miss Foxy
05-28-2009, 09:03 PM
Wildly inappropriate and completely false....
I agree way too harsh.

Hughes_GOAT
05-28-2009, 10:10 PM
And you see a problem with that? :punch:
yes i do. it wasn't authorized. if you're pull that, then don't get caught. when you do get caught, don't act shocked when they react in an unpleasant manner. if anyone was over spying on us and got caught, all hell would break loose.

Tyburn
05-28-2009, 10:38 PM
yes i do. it wasn't authorized. if you're pull that, then don't get caught. when you do get caught, don't act shocked when they react in an unpleasant manner. if anyone was over spying on us and got caught, all hell would break loose.This is not Spying though Andreas. This is one Nation Defending the Sea Boarders of an Allied Nation, with their full permission :)

Hughes_GOAT
05-28-2009, 11:42 PM
This is not Spying though Andreas. This is one Nation Defending the Sea Boarders of an Allied Nation, with their full permission :)
no it's not. the US is trying to get Seoul to help them search these ships, but more importantly, they were doing this off North Korean docks....not south. the US has spy planes fly over the north's military installations and the north pretty much puts up with it. but they won't have the south helping the US in north waters. and i don' t blame them.

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 12:00 AM
no it's not. the US is trying to get Seoul to help them search these ships, but more importantly, they were doing this off North Korean docks....not south. the US has spy planes fly over the north's military installations and the north pretty much puts up with it. but they won't have the south helping the US in north waters. and i don' t blame them.
They should have thought of that before they stept out of line with their Nuclear Programme

If they had of stayed within International Law there would be no need for the South to help/authorise, and searches.

Its like...if your aware of a spy plane, you make sure you build your shyte underground. Dont give them any reason to breach your soverignty and with patience you might be able to get away with it.

You certainly dont go testing missiles your not supposed to have developed in the sea of Japan when the US is conducting Searches and might be joined by the South unless you WANT them to enquire further.

Hughes_GOAT
05-29-2009, 02:04 AM
the US can't just waltz into North Korea doing searches. Israel won't let anyone inspect their country for nukes even though everyone knows they have them. the US vetoes any discipline that may be imposed for their lack of cooperation. yet the US is snooping around North Korean waters looking for weapons? sorry but that's too hypocritical for my taste. the US and it's allies are allowed weapons and no one else. well, the rest of the world is tiring of it and will arm themselves accordingly.

Buzzard
05-29-2009, 02:33 AM
the US can't just waltz into North Korea doing searches. Israel won't let anyone inspect their country for nukes even though everyone knows they have them. the US vetoes any discipline that may be imposed for their lack of cooperation. yet the US is snooping around North Korean waters looking for weapons? sorry but that's too hypocritical for my taste. the US and it's allies are allowed weapons and no one else. well, the rest of the world is tiring of it and will arm themselves accordingly.

You make a lot of sense. I have often wondered and thought those same thoughts.

Hughes_GOAT
05-29-2009, 02:45 AM
You make a lot of sense. I have often wondered and thought those same thoughts.
they are doing this because the US has them by the balls, restricting foreign aid, oil, etc. they aren't hiding the fact they have weapons. they just want the US to allow them back at the table with the US, Japan, Russia, China and South Korea.

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 11:39 AM
the US can't just waltz into North Korea doing searches. Israel won't let anyone inspect their country for nukes even though everyone knows they have them. the US vetoes any discipline that may be imposed for their lack of cooperation. yet the US is snooping around North Korean waters looking for weapons? sorry but that's too hypocritical for my taste. the US and it's allies are allowed weapons and no one else. well, the rest of the world is tiring of it and will arm themselves accordingly.
Technically, the United States can, and will do exactly what they like. They dont really see themselves as subject to International Law, especially when Invited by a group of Allied Nations who are seriously concerned.

I havent heard that these Searches are taking place in Harbours, ports, or onland, I only heard at sea, I only heard around the waters which presumably are international, or else North Korea would already feel violated enough to launch an attack. There is nothing wrong with doing that

There are several countries that are NOT really United States Allied Nations, the point is to stop obviously dangerous Nations, that dont already have them, from getting them.

I dont know about spy planes...but I doubt the United States is the only guilty party there. :laugh:

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 11:42 AM
they are doing this because the US has them by the balls, restricting foreign aid, oil, etc. they aren't hiding the fact they have weapons. they just want the US to allow them back at the table with the US, Japan, Russia, China and South Korea.
Thats Bollox Andreas. North Korea pulled out of the Five Nations Talks, of its own violition just before it began missile launches. America isnt stopping them from returning to the talks...Mrs Clinton has said they can do that if they want...but they DONT want to. :rolleyes:

CAVEMAN
05-29-2009, 02:05 PM
Wildly inappropriate and completely false....

Let me rephrase that a "pushover"!:) In my neck of the woods an Uncle Tom is known as a pushover!

Miss Foxy
05-29-2009, 02:25 PM
Let me rephrase that a "pushover"!:) In my neck of the woods an Uncle Tom is known as a pushover!
What neck of the woods you from? Because from the Bay area to the NYC an Uncle Tom is a racist word for an educated black man that don't act black?!:scared0011:

rockdawg21
05-29-2009, 02:37 PM
yes i do. it wasn't authorized. if you're pull that, then don't get caught. when you do get caught, don't act shocked when they react in an unpleasant manner. if anyone was over spying on us and got caught, all hell would break loose.
I don't think so. Obama would just sit down and talk with them like adults, because, that's his policy. :laugh:

Crisco
05-29-2009, 03:25 PM
I don't think so. Obama would just sit down and talk with them like adults, because, that's his policy. :laugh:

It's the way the world really works right?

You can negotiate with people like that.


I call bull****. Blow um up.

CAVEMAN
05-29-2009, 03:38 PM
What neck of the woods you from? Because from the Bay area to the NYC an Uncle Tom is a racist word for an educated black man that don't act black?!:scared0011:

That name came from Harriet Beecher Stowe's play Uncle Tom's Cabin. In the black community, Uncle Tom eventually came to mean an African American who sells out his people's interests and still does today.

Most white people I know here in Illinois refer to Uncle Tom as a pushover, regardless of color!
Ok crucify me....it was a bad choice of words on my part!:cry:

I'm not racist.......I just don't believe Obama will defend this country like Bush did because he is a pushover. He would rather try and appease our enemies than protect our country.:wink:

Miss Foxy
05-29-2009, 03:45 PM
That name came from Harriet Beecher Stowe's play Uncle Tom's Cabin. In the black community, Uncle Tom eventually came to mean an African American who sells out his people's interests and still does today.

Most white people I know here in Illinois refer to Uncle Tom as a pushover, regardless of color!
Ok crucify me....it was a bad choice of words on my part!:cry:

I'm not racist.......I just don't believe Obama will defend this country like Bush did because he is a pushover. He would rather try and appease our enemies than protect our country.:wink:
Never called you a racist at all. Hey I say inappropriate words all the time so I am not judging you just giving you a hard time..:wink: Thanks for the clarification its always nice to learn something new.

CAVEMAN
05-29-2009, 03:49 PM
Never called you a racist at all. Hey I say inappropriate words all the time so I am not judging you just giving you a hard time..:wink: Thanks for the clarification its always nice to learn something new.

I know you were giving me a hard time!:laugh: I think I kind of offended JB Rattlesnake and Crisco with that label. I should be more careful with my choice of words! :laugh:

Miss Foxy
05-29-2009, 03:50 PM
I know you were giving me a hard time!:laugh: I think I kind of offended JB Rattlesnake and Crisco with that label. I should be more careful with my choice of words! :laugh:
LOL its cause they like Rap/Hip-Hop j/k!! As long as you don't mess too much with the krauts n beans we are cool... :)

rearnakedchoke
05-29-2009, 03:50 PM
We have an "Uncle Tom" in office right now and the rest of the world knows it. I would almost bet that North Korea is not the only country that flexes their muscle. In the next few months, I look for Iran and China to do the very same thing! And the real frightening fact is the rest of the world knows that financially, America cannot handle another war right now. This adminstration has spent so much money already that if we even attempted fighting another war our economy would collapse! All I can say is that we are living in very interesting times!
So you are saying, Obama should go to war and allow the American economy to collapse?

Crisco
05-29-2009, 03:57 PM
I know you were giving me a hard time!:laugh: I think I kind of offended JB Rattlesnake and Crisco with that label. I should be more careful with my choice of words! :laugh:

I don't get offended :laugh:

CAVEMAN
05-29-2009, 04:10 PM
So you are saying, Obama should go to war and allow the American economy to collapse?

No! I'm just saying we have those 2 factors looming over us right now. Obama has proven so far that he would rather appease our enemies and yes this nation cannot financially support another war right now.

What we need to do is "tighten down the screws" so to speak, with the economic sanctions on North Korea. If that does not work the only option financially would be to nuke them. This country cannot support a deploying of ground troops in North Korea. We would simply go broke!

Crisco
05-29-2009, 04:14 PM
No! I'm just saying we have those 2 factors looming over us right now. Obama has proven so far that he would rather appease our enemies and yes this nation cannot financially support another war right now.

What we need to do is "tighten down the screws" so to speak, with the economic sanctions on North Korea. If that does not work the only option financially would be to nuke them. This country cannot support a deploying of ground troops in North Korea. We would simply go broke!

We don't need ground troops. We only need the airforce and the DMZ to be guarded. We can bombard the country and their troop installations from the air and sea. They would have no answer for it.

NateR
05-29-2009, 04:28 PM
So you are saying, Obama should go to war and allow the American economy to collapse?

Obama is the one who is doing the most damage to the American economy right now with all these useless bailouts and the insane spending. I think we'd be better off if he started ignoring it.

NateR
05-29-2009, 04:29 PM
That name came from Harriet Beecher Stowe's play Uncle Tom's Cabin. In the black community, Uncle Tom eventually came to mean an African American who sells out his people's interests and still does today.

Most white people I know here in Illinois refer to Uncle Tom as a pushover, regardless of color!
Ok crucify me....it was a bad choice of words on my part!:cry:

I'm not racist.......I just don't believe Obama will defend this country like Bush did because he is a pushover. He would rather try and appease our enemies than protect our country.:wink:

I didn't have a problem with it and I understood the reference. You were definitely a lot kinder than I would be to Obama at this point.

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 04:47 PM
We don't need ground troops. We only need the airforce and the DMZ to be guarded. We can bombard the country and their troop installations from the air and sea. They would have no answer for it.
The good thing about North Korea is that its easy for access by sea, and Japan is an Allied Nation (ironically) that probably would allow the United States somewhere to park

China pretends it has a non interferance policy...but I wouldnt bet on that...and Russia may not take kindly to the Americans bombarding North Korea...but other then that.

I personally would board their ships and call they're bluff. If they attack, be ready with a strike from South Korea backed up by your fleet in safe Japanese Waters...if they dont attack...go ahead and remove JUST their nuclear development programme Israeli style and then tell them to STFU.

Until then I'd keep going with the United Nations, I'd try and make dialogue with Russia and China, if you can prevent them from speaking or acting on North Korean impotus thats half the battle won.

I'd send Hillary over to South Korea, to once again stress the importance of the 5 nations talks...gets her out of Washington...and who knows what might happen if South Korea turned into a warzone :laugh:

Meanwhile I would indulge in some State Sponcered Assassination projects...try and get rid of Kim...and try and fund some kind of revolution, If the revolution bit failed, I'd perhaps look at South Korea with the US Support invading during the civil strife...but only if it looked like the Civil Strife would culminate in an even worse regieme.

The worst loss in this gamble is that North Korea use one of its Nukes on South Korea, in which case...the U.S stands to lose South Korea...I would then let Japan and the other Nearby Nations battle that out and sloooowly go quiet. OR It would be retaliation from China or Russia, in which case, the Nuke might be aimed at the United States, BUT with Starwars it would be prevented from reaching its target...and then the United States could do whatever it liked, because we would have moved beyond pre-emptive into defending oneself.....and We'd obliterate the triple Capitals...and I mean obliterate :laugh:

NateR
05-29-2009, 05:05 PM
No! I'm just saying we have those 2 factors looming over us right now. Obama has proven so far that he would rather appease our enemies and yes this nation cannot financially support another war right now.

What we need to do is "tighten down the screws" so to speak, with the economic sanctions on North Korea. If that does not work the only option financially would be to nuke them. This country cannot support a deploying of ground troops in North Korea. We would simply go broke!

The North Koreans believe that Kim Jong-Il is a god, so all we really have to do is assassinate him and level PyongYang in order to prove to the rest of North Korea that he's not a god.

I definitely don't think that we can afford a full scale war with North Korea right now.

And that Obama guy would rather bow down to our enemies and alienate our closest allies (Britain). He's a greater danger to America's national security than anyone right now.

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 05:17 PM
The North Koreans believe that Kim Jong-Il is a god, so all we really have to do is assassinate him and level PyongYang in order to prove to the rest of North Korea that he's not a god.

Do they really still take Divine Right of Kingship so seriously??

Thats a really Ancient way of thinking about those who are in power, and a great way for the power to maintain control. Basically, Solitary Rullers from the Med to the Orient were considered incarnations of "gods" But I didnt know there was anywhere on earth left, that still thought their Rullers were gods on earth....the Pharonic Lineage in Africa was an obvious example, but so were the rullers in places like Cambodia...thats how the workforce were so willing to build such feats as Angkor Wat and the likes...they believed it was not just obaying orders, or following the law...but actually a spiritual service.

NateR
05-29-2009, 05:27 PM
Do they really still take Divine Right of Kingship so seriously??

Thats a really Ancient way of thinking about those who are in power, and a great way for the power to maintain control. Basically, Solitary Rullers from the Med to the Orient were considered incarnations of "gods" But I didnt know there was anywhere on earth left, that still thought their Rullers were gods on earth....the Pharonic Lineage in Africa was an obvious example, but so were the rullers in places like Cambodia...thats how the workforce were so willing to build such feats as Angkor Wat and the likes...they believed it was not just obaying orders, or following the law...but actually a spiritual service.

Yep, North Koreans believe that their leader is god or the son of god and they've been taught that their entire life. In fact, from the reports I've read, they all bow down and worship his photo in their homes everyday.

Which is why a war with that country would be so dangerous for us. It wouldn't just be a matter of defeating their military and then their civilians would willfully surrender. They would literally fight down to the last child to stop American soldiers.

The Japanese were exactly the same in WW2, their women were so convinced that the American soldiers were cannibals, that they would throw their own children over cliffs if the American troops broke through the Japanese lines and start advancing towards them.

So, if we want to end a war with North Korea quickly and decisively, then we need to ignore the army and take out the population centers. It worked on Japan in WW2, I believe it would work for North Korea as well.

rearnakedchoke
05-29-2009, 05:33 PM
Obama is the one who is doing the most damage to the American economy right now with all these useless bailouts and the insane spending. I think we'd be better off if he started ignoring it.
well, if anyone was there, the bailouts would have been spent, maybe not all the other package stuff but that is another thread

... but if he does nothing, you will have people saying, oh he is soft, a pushover .. and if attacked, you would have people saying, he is spending money where he shouldn't ....

NateR
05-29-2009, 05:46 PM
well, if anyone was there, the bailouts would have been spent, maybe not all the other package stuff but that is another thread

... but if he does nothing, you will have people saying, oh he is soft, a pushover .. and if attacked, you would have people saying, he is spending money where he shouldn't ....

I think it was Bill Cosby who once said, "I don't know the secret to success, but I do know the secret to failure and that is trying to please everybody." I might be paraphrasing, I don't recall the exact quote; but I definitely agree with the sentiment.

No leader is going to be without critics. So, a good leader needs to know when to ignore public opinion in favor of doing the right thing. If you don't know what the right thing is, then read the Bible, because that's how the Founding Fathers determined it and that's how our Presidents need to determine it.

Our economy would have recovered on its own, none of the bailouts were necessary. People criticize conservatives, saying that we weren't outraged by the bailouts under Bush, but we were most definitely outraged. Unfortunately, with the stock market crash and Presidential elections, none of that was really covered in the media.

NateR
05-29-2009, 06:07 PM
the US can't just waltz into North Korea doing searches. Israel won't let anyone inspect their country for nukes even though everyone knows they have them. the US vetoes any discipline that may be imposed for their lack of cooperation. yet the US is snooping around North Korean waters looking for weapons? sorry but that's too hypocritical for my taste. the US and it's allies are allowed weapons and no one else. well, the rest of the world is tiring of it and will arm themselves accordingly.

I think you are oversimplifying the issue. We can't treat our enemies the same way we treat our allies, that's just not intelligent or practical. If we did that, we'd soon find ourselves with nothing but enemies.

Also, we don't appease insane dictators by being nice to them and giving them what they want. All they understand is power, so we have to crush them with greater power.

No one would ever claim that we should give Osama bin Laden the same access to the White House and the Queen of England, so why should we treat a dangerous nation like North Korea the same as Israel, one of our strongest and most loyal allies?

CAVEMAN
05-29-2009, 06:18 PM
I didn't have a problem with it and I understood the reference. You were definitely a lot kinder than I would be to Obama at this point.

Cool! I was getting the feeling there that some people thought I meant Obama was a rich & educated black man that sold out his race. That was not the "Uncle Tom" I was referring to.

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 06:18 PM
Our economy would have recovered on its own, none of the bailouts were necessary.
The only Bail out that was needed, was to the banks.

I dont see why you Allies should be forced to pay for YOUR nations financial greed, do you? Never mind YOUR economy, why should MY Economy have to fall and be rebuilt because of YOUR nations greed??

Why should I pay for a Greedy American Sub-prime Market who spend more then they can afford, and a Greedy Bank who encourages them? WADR...thats not MY problem...Your Government permitted the problem, your Government pays to restore the issue before it effects me...thats the Morally Just thing to do.

Without the bail-out you would be throwing your problems onto your closest friends...you speak about treating your allies properly. Paying off the banks, was one of the greatest services your Government EVER did...not for YOU...but for ME

Any other Bail-out to any other company is wholly wrong though. Companies can go bust, the Financial World must not. :)

CAVEMAN
05-29-2009, 06:27 PM
The North Koreans believe that Kim Jong-Il is a god, so all we really have to do is assassinate him and level PyongYang in order to prove to the rest of North Korea that he's not a god.

I definitely don't think that we can afford a full scale war with North Korea right now.

And that Obama guy would rather bow down to our enemies and alienate our closest allies (Britain). He's a greater danger to America's national security than anyone right now.

The Obama administration finds itself in quite a pickle!

NateR
05-29-2009, 06:27 PM
The only Bail out that was needed, was to the banks.

I dont see why you Allies should be forced to pay for YOUR nations financial greed, do you? Never mind YOUR economy, why should MY Economy have to fall and be rebuilt because of YOUR nations greed??

Why should I pay for a Greedy American Sub-prime Market who spend more then they can afford, and a Greedy Bank who encourages them? WADR...thats not MY problem...Your Government permitted the problem, your Government pays to restore the issue before it effects me...thats the Morally Just thing to do.

Without the bail-out you would be throwing your problems onto your closest friends...you speak about treating your allies properly. Paying off the banks, was one of the greatest services your Government EVER did...not for YOU...but for ME

Any other Bail-out to any other company is wholly wrong though. Companies can go bust, the Financial World must not. :)

You have to forgive most Americans for not understanding the global impact that the bank bailout had. I do believe you make a good point and a strong argument could be made for why the bank bailout was necessary. We don't have to like it, but it was probably necessary.

I have personally noticed a difference, because I used to sell a lot of stuff on Ebay and easily about 50-60% of my total sales would go overseas and about 99% of my auctions that ended at $150 or more would go to countries like Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, etc. However, after the economic crash and the bank bailouts, I haven't sold ANYTHING to foreign collectors and my sales in the US are ending around 20-30% lower than they were in mid 2008.

Now, I don't think that ANY of Obama's bailouts have been necessary at all, in fact I'm starting to get the impression that he is intentionally trying to cripple our economy so he can turn us into another welfare state. It would surely go hand in hand with the philosophies of the radical liberals who helped groom him in his early years.

Crisco
05-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Islamic God.. Korean God... Seems we are fighting everyone elses Gods. It is as Jesus said it would be :ninja:

rockdawg21
05-29-2009, 07:41 PM
Yep, North Koreans believe that their leader is god or the son of god and they've been taught that their entire life. In fact, from the reports I've read, they all bow down and worship his photo in their homes everyday.

Which is why a war with that country would be so dangerous for us. It wouldn't just be a matter of defeating their military and then their civilians would willfully surrender. They would literally fight down to the last child to stop American soldiers.
It's true, that country is the most isolated country on the planet. Have you seen the video for the reaction to the death of Kim Il Song? The people there are crying hysterically; they didn't think it was possible that he could die because there was a mythical legend created about him, and they've been brainwashed about it in their schools and television. The same thing with Kim John Il. Childrens' songs even speak of murdering Americans and, when Dubya was President, his name was included in those songs.

No doubt, going to war with this country would have tremendous casualties. Anybody see the Letters to Iwo Jima? It'd be just like that, even if 20 of them are left, they would all die to take out 1 American, it's nuts.

rockdawg21
05-29-2009, 07:44 PM
Cool! I was getting the feeling there that some people thought I meant Obama was a rich & educated black man that sold out his race. That was not the "Uncle Tom" I was referring to.
Besides, Obama can only be half an "Uncle Tom". Even if the African-American community doesn't recognize the fact that he's half & half, it's still great because he represents progress. I wasn't alive during the Civil Rights Movement, but I wonder how that feels to those who lived through it. It's gotta just be mind blowing to think how much fighting there was just 40 years ago and to think a black man could become President. It's great.

NateR
05-29-2009, 08:11 PM
Besides, Obama can only be half an "Uncle Tom". Even if the African-American community doesn't recognize the fact that he's half & half, it's still great because he represents progress. I wasn't alive during the Civil Rights Movement, but I wonder how that feels to those who lived through it. It's gotta just be mind blowing to think how much fighting there was just 40 years ago and to think a black man could become President. It's great.

My parents were both very active in the Civil Rights movement, which actually didn't just end with MLK Jr. it continued on into the 1970s. They actually helped to desegregate some churches in Missouri and got kicked out of a couple of churches for bringing black kids to the Sunday School services.

The historical significance is pretty big, but we didn't hear all the liberal journalists getting shivers up their spine when Colin Powell became the first black Secretary of State and later Condoleeza Rice became the first black female Secretary of State under Bush. Apparently progress only counts if it's a Democrat.:rolleyes:

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 08:14 PM
You have to forgive most Americans for not understanding the global impact that the bank bailout had. I do believe you make a good point and a strong argument could be made for why the bank bailout was necessary. We don't have to like it, but it was probably necessary.

I have personally noticed a difference, because I used to sell a lot of stuff on Ebay and easily about 50-60% of my total sales would go overseas and about 99% of my auctions that ended at $150 or more would go to countries like Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, etc. However, after the economic crash and the bank bailouts, I haven't sold ANYTHING to foreign collectors and my sales in the US are ending around 20-30% lower than they were in mid 2008.

Now, I don't think that ANY of Obama's bailouts have been necessary at all, in fact I'm starting to get the impression that he is intentionally trying to cripple our economy so he can turn us into another welfare state. It would surely go hand in hand with the philosophies of the radical liberals who helped groom him in his early years.

Well I personally aggree with you. Your Government shouldnt have had to bail out your banks, because your banks and the sub-prime shouldnt have been allowed to get away with what they were doing. I also aggree with you that one solution would have been to let them die, in time, things would have recovered...but the delay for just a few days nearly killed us :laugh:

There are two reasons many Americans wont understand why the Banks are different from any other company. Firstly, just like many Europeans, many dont actually understand what happened. Secondly, The American Dream is not the European Dream, The American Dream is a "Chance" for a new life...but it also carries with it the thought that if you should fail...noone should pick you up. It is Survival of the Fittest, Everyone has opportunities...but if you fall bad...you fall bad. Many will think that the banks have failed, and thus..the Government should let them die, because the Governments job is not to support the people under the American Dream, its a required Evil, but really it should mind its own business, and certainly not go stepping in to save a company. To a Conservative American, its unforgivable for the Government to do that.

Now I aggree with you, that ANY other Company, and I would stand with you and say, YES, let them die. I wholly dissagree with the packages to Car Manufacturers...and I dispise the Stimulas Package...both of those things werent needed IMHO. The only reason the Banks were, was because of their effect OUTSIDE America.

You have seen what less then a week has done to the rest of the world...imagine what would have happened if the banks had continued to topple. It would have led to the end of Trade and the Stock Market as we know it. It would have probably led to an end of Banks, a possible return to bartering, and that would be like a ripple effect from New York, across the Entire United States and Canada and Meso America, Next to go would be London, Then Germany which would take out the rest of Europe, the Brazilian Stock Exchange would then collapse, and the repuccusions would be felt in those Orient States where there is another big Stock Exchange...With the United States, Latin America, Canada, Europe, England, China, Japan, and the Orient would all be out in less then two weeks.

The consequences are unbearable. Some people dont realize how close we came to the end of Western Civilization as you and I know it. Our whole way of life depends on Trade, Industry and Finances, the former cant work without the latter...its like a chain reaction and...its irreversable and probably unstoppable...if the United States Bush 2 Administration had not bailed out the banks...GOD knows what would have happened to us by now...worst case scenario...we'd all be back in the stoneage...and the Islamists...they would be the Super-Powers :blink:

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 08:15 PM
but we didn't hear all the liberal journalists getting shivers up their spine when Colin Powell became the first black Secretary of State and later Condoleeza Rice became the first black female Secretary of State under Bush.
GOOD point. I miss Colin Powell. :sad:

Hughes_GOAT
05-29-2009, 08:43 PM
I think you are oversimplifying the issue. We can't treat our enemies the same.


North Korea isn't our enemy....they've done nothing to us.

Crisco
05-29-2009, 08:46 PM
North Korea isn't our enemy....they've done nothing to us.

Wow Goat.

Never thought I'd see the day someone who I deemed intelligent stand up for N. Korea and their right to have nuclear weapons.

J.B.
05-29-2009, 08:49 PM
That name came from Harriet Beecher Stowe's play Uncle Tom's Cabin. In the black community, Uncle Tom eventually came to mean an African American who sells out his people's interests and still does today.

Most white people I know here in Illinois refer to Uncle Tom as a pushover, regardless of color!
Ok crucify me....it was a bad choice of words on my part!:cry:

I'm not racist.......I just don't believe Obama will defend this country like Bush did because he is a pushover. He would rather try and appease our enemies than protect our country.:wink:

I understand what point your making, and I don't think your racist. I just think it was a bad choice of words. However, I will say that I have never heard the term used in reference to anybody other than black people, and it's mostly a term used BY black people.

Hughes_GOAT
05-29-2009, 08:54 PM
Technically, the United States can, and will do exactly what they like. They dont really see themselves as subject to International Law

exactly the problem. :laugh:

another problem will be when Russia and China tell the US to slow their F/N roll.

they don't seem worried about North Korea and will not let the US in to attack.

Hughes_GOAT
05-29-2009, 08:58 PM
Wow Goat.

Never thought I'd see the day someone who I deemed intelligent stand up for N. Korea and their right to have nuclear weapons.
nuclear weapons doesn't = our enemy.

they aren't even part of The Axis Of Evil anymore.

does that count?

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 09:01 PM
North Korea isn't our enemy....they've done nothing to us.
South Korea is your Friend, and they've done plenty to your Friend.

An attack on one, is an attack on all Andreas :)

Friends stick up for Friends. South Korea has almost exactly HALF the Military Strength in EVERY part verses North....Did you know South have 12 submarines...and the North have more then 50????

North Korea has almost exactly DOUBLE the people in its Army....But the one place it lacks is its Navy...its not that the South has a brilliant Navy its that the North doesnt have much at all.

Dont you stick up for your Friends Andreas? Particularly if the ASK you for help?? I certainly do, and the United States usually does also :)

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 09:04 PM
nuclear weapons doesn't = our enemy.

they aren't even part of The Axis Of Evil anymore.

does that count?
that was one of the things the US did when they aggreed to talks if I remember rightly.

But they have said they wont go back, and they declaired the Treaty null and void...I'd say they should be put back on.

Nuclear Weapons in the wrong hands = Our Enemy :)

Crisco
05-29-2009, 09:07 PM
that was one of the things the US did when they aggreed to talks if I remember rightly.

But they have said they wont go back, and they declaired the Treaty null and void...I'd say they should be put back on.

Nuclear Weapons in the wrong hands = Our Enemy :)

Thank you Dave.

If you can't see that a nuclear armed N.Korea is a bad idea then there is no need for further discussion on the topic.

Tyburn
05-29-2009, 09:32 PM
Thank you Dave.

If you can't see that a nuclear armed N.Korea is a bad idea then there is no need for further discussion on the topic.
:ashamed: why thank you Crisco. You do have to really e-x-p-l-a-i-n everything to Andreas so he understands :laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
05-30-2009, 01:40 AM
that was one of the things the US did when they aggreed to talks if I remember rightly.

But they have said they wont go back, and they declaired the Treaty null and void...I'd say they should be put back on.

Nuclear Weapons in the wrong hands = Our Enemy :)
Israel has weapons but won't allow inspectors in. they won't sign the NNPT either. the US supports them and vetoes all possible sanctions against them. North Korea at least signed it and abided by it til the US broke promises.

Hughes_GOAT
05-30-2009, 01:59 AM
and the US has no friends, just strategic investments. South Korea, Japan, P.I. at one time and currently Guam are all "friends" because of their location. and the fact that they do whatever the US wants. friends of the US don't say no. North Korea not only says no, but you aren't going to have weapons and then tell us we can't. the US loses leverage/power anytime countries that don't play their game goes nuclear. China and Russia aren't bothered by the North because they know the score.

Hughes_GOAT
05-30-2009, 03:09 AM
:laugh:

Tokyo Governor just said they don't feel North Korea is a threat.

Obama's National Security Adviser, retired Marine Corps Gen James Jones said NK is no threat. he also said "nothing that the NK's did surprised us. we knew that they were going to do this, they said so,so no reason not to believe them."

they just want to be let back in the 6 party talks and using nuclear threats is the.only leverage they have.

Tyburn
05-30-2009, 11:20 AM
Israel has weapons but won't allow inspectors in. they won't sign the NNPT either. the US supports them and vetoes all possible sanctions against them. North Korea at least signed it and abided by it til the US broke promises.
But Israel isnt going to use any Nuclear Weapons, they are provided for her by the United States...and she isnt going to go against the United States, nor will she need to go and use them so long as the US defend her

The North Koreans cant be trusted. First they sign a peace treaty, now they rip it up, First the sign the non-proliferation deal, then they decide to remove themselves from it.

Iran and North Korea should never be allowed Nuclear Weapons.

NateR
05-30-2009, 05:21 PM
North Korea isn't our enemy

Tell that to the North Koreans. :laugh:

NateR
05-30-2009, 06:21 PM
Seriously GOAT, I never would have pegged you for one of those "this is only happening because the United States is so evil" nutjobs. I'm a little disappointed.

Hughes_GOAT
06-08-2009, 11:36 PM
But Israel isnt going to use any Nuclear Weapons

The North Koreans cant be trusted. First the sign the non-proliferation deal, then they decide to remove themselves from it.


well NK won't use theirs then.

at least they signed it before, which Israel hasn't done. NK only tore it up because unkept promises by the US.

Hughes_GOAT
06-08-2009, 11:53 PM
Seriously GOAT, I never would have pegged you for one of those "this is only happening because the United States is so evil" nutjobs. I'm a little disappointed.
i call it like it is. i could just as easily say anyone who thinks the US is good/moral, while the rest of the world is evil, are nutjobs. the US needs to worry about the US.

Buzzard
06-09-2009, 01:32 AM
i call it like it is. i could just as easily say anyone who thinks the US is good/moral, while the rest of the world is evil, are nutjobs. the US needs to worry about the US.


Oh no you dint.

J.B.
06-09-2009, 04:01 AM
i call it like it is. i could just as easily say anyone who thinks the US is good/moral, while the rest of the world is evil, are nutjobs. the US needs to worry about the US.

Right...because Kim Jong Ill is such a rational and trustworthy person that we should just forget about it. Especially when most countries in the international scene agree that they should not have nukes. :rolleyes:

Hughes_GOAT
06-09-2009, 04:21 AM
Oh no you dint.
i get that a lot. :laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
06-09-2009, 04:34 AM
Right...because Kim Jong Ill is such a rational and trustworthy person that we should just forget about it. Especially when most countries in the international scene agree that they should not have nukes. :rolleyes:

sounds like some of our most recent leaders.

the irony is the US, along with certain people here, believe other countries' (UN) opinions don't matter if it's contrary to the US's. yet we should listen to the international scene now? :laugh:

J.B.
06-09-2009, 05:02 AM
sounds like some of our most recent leaders.

the irony is the US, along with certain people here, believe other countries' (UN) opinions don't matter if it's contrary to the US's. yet we should listen to the international scene now? :laugh:

The UN is not always in line with what is in OUR best interest. It's people who tend to sympathize with dictators, like you are doing now, that tend to stand behind the UN's normally passive approach. It has NOTHING to do with the UN, most people clearly see Kim Jong Ill as a giant douchebag and do NOT want him to have nukes. That falls in line with the USA's line of thinking, so if that means the UN is on board, GOOD FOR THEM.

I live in America, and I worry about AMERICA FIRST. :)

Hughes_GOAT
06-09-2009, 06:02 AM
and the the US isn't in line with NK's best interests. why should other countries let us tell them how to live? that's the problem with the US, we like to dictate to other countries (how ironic).

if it has NOTHING to do with the UN, then why mention NK having nukes as going against the international scene?

i live in America too, whoopee! i spent 11 years in the military and i don't need to caps lock it either. you believe in America first? then you shouldn't be bothered by NK.

J.B.
06-09-2009, 08:06 AM
and the the US isn't in line with NK's best interests. why should other countries let us tell them how to live? that's the problem with the US, we like to dictate to other countries (how ironic).

if it has NOTHING to do with the UN, then why mention NK having nukes as going against the international scene?

i live in America too, whoopee! i spent 11 years in the military and i don't need to caps lock it either. you believe in America first? then you shouldn't be bothered by NK.

Why mention it? Because it's the truth.

Most countries don't approve of NK having nuclear weapons. Does that mean that I, or anybody else should agree with the UN on EVERYTHING? Absolutely not. Many times, and even in this case, the UN is too passive and does not take serious action. That is the primary reason people do not always respect the UN. Why should I care about what Kim Jong Ill thinks is in the best interest of North Korea? The man is a brutal dictator who can't be trusted, and I don't see you racing to try and defend him nearly as much as some point of moral high ground that you are trying to make. The fact that you would even compare any of our leaders to him makes it hard for me to take what you are saying seriously.

I respect and appreciate that you served in the military, but I really don't see what that has to do with what we are talking about. I was not attacking your patriotism by using capital letters to drive home a point. If you don't feel that North Korea poses a threat, that's fine. You can believe whatever you want, but the truth is it's much more complex than just saying "Oh, America wants to impose it's will again". That kind of thinking is just not something I subscribe to.

Hughes_GOAT
06-09-2009, 11:16 AM
it's hypocritical to say screw the UN if they don't agree with us but turn around and say, well, the international scene is against NK having nukes. you either respect international opinion or you don't. that means respecting them even if it's contrary to the US's agenda.

being that the US has supported dictators before and even gave them WMD's, means we are in no position of morality to say who's bad and who's not.

the international scene thinks of Bush like you think of Kim.

Hughes_GOAT
06-09-2009, 11:21 AM
i'm not the only one who feels NK isn't a threat. Japan, China, Russia and the US's National Security Advisor don't feel they're a threat. you may not subscribe to the US imposing it's will as a problem, but i do, the Middle East does, NK does and the UN/international scene does. even America does, as proven by Obama being elected. America was tired of Bush/Cheney and tired of the lies that led us to war and keep us in war.

Hughes_GOAT
06-09-2009, 11:43 AM
"If the American people knew what we have done, they would string us up on lamp posts."--George HW Bush

Crisco
06-09-2009, 12:30 PM
America should impose its will on any nation that it sees fit.

I have zero issue with American imperialism because it is fair more fair and balanced then any previous.

If there is a shred of proof that NK has the ability to harm us I completely agree with making a government change there.

Tyburn
06-09-2009, 04:48 PM
sounds like some of our most recent leaders.

the irony is the US, along with certain people here, believe other countries' (UN) opinions don't matter if it's contrary to the US's. yet we should listen to the international scene now? :laugh:
The Greater Irony is WHY the United States doesnt always listen to the United Nations.

The United States helpped set the United Nations up as a body SPECIFICALLY to stop Nations making unilatteral moves that could lead to wars. That INCLUDES THE UNITED STATES. What the Americans object to is the fact the United Nations are actually doing their job properly which means as well as telling dictators like Korea they must not carry out Nuclear Tests, IT ALSO tells the United States that it should not make unilateral moves involving, for example, invasions of anothers soverignty.

Of COURSE the UN isnt quite in line with what is in the American best interest, because the UN deals with a BIGGER picture, known as THE WHOLE WORLD. That is precisely what it was designed, by the Americans, to do. They just didnt bank on it asserting that THEY are not above International Law.

So the United Nations is doing its job, it stops BOTH parties taking liberties they shouldnt.

Except for one flaw. Its pretty much powerless to enforce anything it reccomends. That was always an issue, but the United States pretty much distroyed any chance the United Nations had of ever becoming practically useful, when it decided to completely abandon the United Nations, and the vast Majority of Europe and jump from Afghanistan to Iraq.

The United Nations has never been the same since...that prooved that actually America, and certain other countries not only considered themselves above the law, (the same law they criticise the Terroristic Countries for breaking)...but that they could completely ignore, with no consequences, the United Nation.

Noone is fooled by the US now, when she goes running to the UN over things like Israel who are too personal for her to handle directly, we saw it with the lebanon, we saw it with palestine.

I strongly believe ALL nations should be held accountable to International Law, that includes both the US, and Korea...incidently, it also includes the UK on which the fault of the United Nations failure to sanction war with Iraq, lies absolutely, and more or less entirely with.

Several years later, with the major parties slumbering, people are so sick of the way our Country has acted, its begining to dare to vote in British Nationalists. Those you can pretty much consider Neo-Nazi...what was it Nick Griffith said something like "well I do believe Adolf Hitler went a little to far..." He's now representing North Wales in the European Parliament.

We break these international rules ultimately at our peril. :sad:

J.B.
06-09-2009, 09:25 PM
it's hypocritical to say screw the UN if they don't agree with us but turn around and say, well, the international scene is against NK having nukes. you either respect international opinion or you don't. that means respecting them even if it's contrary to the US's agenda.

being that the US has supported dictators before and even gave them WMD's, means we are in no position of morality to say who's bad and who's not.

the international scene thinks of Bush like you think of Kim.

i'm not the only one who feels NK isn't a threat. Japan, China, Russia and the US's National Security Advisor don't feel they're a threat. you may not subscribe to the US imposing it's will as a problem, but i do, the Middle East does, NK does and the UN/international scene does. even America does, as proven by Obama being elected. America was tired of Bush/Cheney and tired of the lies that led us to war and keep us in war.

So lets get this straight, according to what you are saying...

You can ONLY agree or disagree with the UN, there is NO middle ground ever?

Obama is going to change everything, and not lie to us about anything?

Sorry, but if thats what you are saying, I think it's ridiculous.

In case you missed it, Obama has condemned what NK is doing, and clearly he knows the implications of a nuclear NK. Also, the US National Security Advisor did not say "they are not a threat", he said they are still some time off from being able to properly deliver a nuclear weapon. Even the Chinese, Russians, and Japs know that Kim Jong Ill is a lunatic, but they are not gonna rock the boat because of all the money changing hands between NK and those countries.

If you are part of the whole crowd that thinks George Bush is evil and Barrack Obama is the savior, then I must say I am surprised. I would have taken you for the type who is not likely to trust any politician. I sure as hell don't, and I sure as hell don't trust Kim Jong Ill.

The difference between the way the world views us, and the way they view other countries is akin to that of child stuck playing a less popular position on the Football team, while we are Quarterbacking the game. Sure, from time to time they are a little bitter, probably jealous, but ultimately when we save their ass in the end, they are happy to have us on the team. They don't always like our play-calling, but there is still nobody better to have running the show. Who you gonna trust? Kim Jong Ill? The Russians? The Chinese? Good luck with that. :laugh:

If I don't think the international scene's opinion is in line with what is best for America, then I will say so. If I agree with it, then YAY. That hardly makes me a hypocrite.

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 02:17 AM
America should impose its will on any nation that it sees fit.

I have zero issue with American imperialism because it is fair more fair and balanced then any previous.

If there is a shred of proof that NK has the ability to harm us I completely agree with making a government change there.

and any country that wants to arm itself because it doesn't want America occupying it will do so. just don't act surprised or upset when they do. fair and balanced? what is this, Fox News?

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 02:20 AM
i agree completely Dave.

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 02:31 AM
not at all JB. you've already made clear with various posts you don't care what the UN thinks if it's not Pro America. that's a lot different than respecting their position even if it's contrary to America.

i never said Obama won't lie or not change everything. i said he was elected as arguably the least qualified Pres because America had become that desperate to get rid of Bush and his warmongering regime.

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 02:42 AM
the NS advisor said exactly what i quoted him as saying. and if he happened to say elsewhere that NK is still some time off from delivering a weapon here, that could apply to any country since they, like NK, can't hit us yet. not to mention we would intercept it. hence, no threat. Obama can condem what he wants, just like the UN against us. that doesn't mean they're a threat. Russia and China don't care because they know why NK is doing what they're doing.

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 03:04 AM
and China and Russia will back NK if America tries to take action. they know it will only be a matter of time before America tries to take them over.

i've already said Bush and Obama suck.

no one is jealous of us. they're tired of us invading and telling them what to do. though it is easier to sell the jealousy angle to Americans.

i'll trust world opinion over America's. the US can't be trusted and that's unfortunate. Americans are slowly realizing what the rest of the world already knows.

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 03:08 AM
and you're a hypocrite because you have no respect for the UN but acted like it was a big deal the international scene was against NK having nukes. it's not a surprise since they don't want anyone to have them if possible.

J.B.
06-10-2009, 05:22 AM
Okay GOAT, you win.

I am convinced that you used four separate posts just to make it annoying. :wink:

I don't recall ever debating politics with you, and I will be honest, I did not read all you previous posts in this thread. So, forgive me if I don't recall what your specific views are in regards to things you have stated outside what I have quoted.

I still believe you are downplaying the threat that NK poses, and YES, the NSA did say what I said he said...:laugh:

Seriously though, if you really believe that other countries who don't have it half as good as we do living here in America don't envy us, even just a little bit, then you are being silly. I never said that is ALL of it , but it's a definitely a part.

You can call me a hypocrite for using the "international scene" as a talking point, I can take that. However, you still are able to recognize the fundamental difference of opinion we share. Don't twist it any further than that, I am not and was not ever questioning your patriotism.

Cool? :mellow:

Tyburn
06-10-2009, 12:03 PM
America should impose its will on any nation that it sees fit.

I have zero issue with American imperialism because it is fair more fair and balanced then any previous.

If there is a shred of proof that NK has the ability to harm us I completely agree with making a government change there.
The Age of Imperialism is OVER Crisco. There is nothing "fair and ballenced" about invading the soverignty of another Nation. That is EXACTLY what now consitutes as Terrorism, and it HAS done ever sinse the German Imperial Force decided to take over half of Europe. Do you know the Excuse Hitler Used when the invasions started?? He said that there was a vast number of Germans in those States and he was simply bringing them back into Germany. They Welcomed him in some places...but then it didnt stop.

The AMERICANS Vowed to never let such a thing happen again. Less then a Century later...they are angry that the Institution THEY set up, is telling THEM they cant just invade whenever they feel like it....There are ways of regime change that dont involve all out warfare. You used to use it against Communists...like Salvadore Allende in Chillie. THAT is what America SHOULD be doing IF she desires regieme change.

The Americans have NO RIGHT to impose their will on anyone other then their own citizens and their own boundaries. Can you understand why attitudes like that are seen as EXTREME Right wing to the rest of the world? Imagine if I said the same about England?? What exactly do you think North Korea believe...I'll hazzard a guess its EXACTLY what you've said about yourself, but applied to them! That sort of talk is nigh on Fascism! Hitler believed that Germany had the right to impose its will on any other Nation. Be VERY careful you dont become to full of Pride. Pride comes before a Fall...and America is NOT always right

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 08:35 PM
i used 4 posts because my mobile only lets me use so many characters.

the NSA may have said it, but it sounds a lot more like what Tokyo's Governor said. still, like i said, "being some time away" doesn't = threat. alot of countries are some time away.

they don't envy us because our beliefs are contrary to theirs. plus, if they wanted to be like us, all they have to do is join America's side.....but they won't since they have no interest in being Americanized.

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 08:37 PM
and i know you weren't questioning my Patriotism, so that's cool!

Hughes_GOAT
06-10-2009, 08:39 PM
once again i agree Dave. the world has to be coming to an end now :laugh:

J.B.
06-10-2009, 08:59 PM
and i know you weren't questioning my Patriotism, so that's cool!

Cool. :cool:

Yeah, mobiles can suck for interwebz sometimes....:wacko:

The quote I posted, was taken from the NSA, I don't remember where it was now, and I should have posted the link when I looked it up. Oh well.

Still, I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on this issue. I do see NK as threat, even if they are "some time away" from being able to deliver the weapon. Notice though, I am not screaming for us to invade NK right this minute either. I just see them as a problem, and one that we will eventually have to deal with. I am not all about America "imposing it's will" where ever it wants, but I do think we need to look out for our best interests, and our security, even when the rest of the world don't like it.

Also, like I said before, I don't think that envy is ONLY problem, but I do think it exists even if they don't always admit it. I am not talking about envying our beliefs, not at all. I am talking about envying how easy we have it compared to most countries. Things we take for granted here, like clean water, air conditioning, nice homes, etc... it's not all specific, but you get the point. In America even our poor people have big flatscreen tv's, and cell phones, and other stuff a lot of people in other countries will never get to even see, let alone own. Obviously not ALL countries are missing those things, but we definitely have it better here than most.

Crisco
06-10-2009, 09:14 PM
The Age of Imperialism is OVER Crisco. There is nothing "fair and ballenced" about invading the soverignty of another Nation. That is EXACTLY what now consitutes as Terrorism, and it HAS done ever sinse the German Imperial Force decided to take over half of Europe. Do you know the Excuse Hitler Used when the invasions started?? He said that there was a vast number of Germans in those States and he was simply bringing them back into Germany. They Welcomed him in some places...but then it didnt stop.

The AMERICANS Vowed to never let such a thing happen again. Less then a Century later...they are angry that the Institution THEY set up, is telling THEM they cant just invade whenever they feel like it....There are ways of regime change that dont involve all out warfare. You used to use it against Communists...like Salvadore Allende in Chillie. THAT is what America SHOULD be doing IF she desires regieme change.

The Americans have NO RIGHT to impose their will on anyone other then their own citizens and their own boundaries. Can you understand why attitudes like that are seen as EXTREME Right wing to the rest of the world? Imagine if I said the same about England?? What exactly do you think North Korea believe...I'll hazzard a guess its EXACTLY what you've said about yourself, but applied to them! That sort of talk is nigh on Fascism! Hitler believed that Germany had the right to impose its will on any other Nation. Be VERY careful you dont become to full of Pride. Pride comes before a Fall...and America is NOT always right

I don't really care if America is right or wrong in a dispute with another country as long as she is victorious.

At the end of the day the rest of the world for the most part is a ****ty place to live. I have to put the interest of my family and my country first before anyone else (excluding the good lord of course).

IT is within the United States' best interest that N. Korea not have nuclear weapons. Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact it was not a questions of if they can actually deliver the bomb but when. Removing the capability of the bomb now saves us the greater threat of the bomb and the delivery system.


I love my country completely even with her faults. I would go so far as to say I am an American Nationalist because I feel she is definately better then any other place on earth. While respecting human rights and the rights of her citizens America should do anything and everything in her power to continue and expand her power and influence to insure a free and prosperous future for our children.

Countries like China should be taken apart from the inside and there government replaced.

Maybe not 5-10 years from now but within the near future another great war is coming between China and the U.S. It's growing too fast and too bold to not bop heads with us eventually.

I have a different kind of patriotism then some people. I'm by no means a racist and love and respect all forms of life but my country and it's allies definately my priority.

Better to be rid of powerful hostile governments lest they be trouble later.

Sorry if this offends anyone but this is how I feel. USA all day! :wink: :laugh:

Tyburn
06-10-2009, 09:44 PM
once again i agree Dave. the world has to be coming to an end now :laugh:
have you just changed your view or something Andreas? coz I've never recalled having you fight along side me in this kinda debate before...and we have had this kind of debate before on here...maybe it was just during some of your AWOL months... :laugh:

Tyburn
06-10-2009, 10:00 PM
1) I don't really care if America is right or wrong in a dispute with another country as long as she is victorious.

2) At the end of the day the rest of the world for the most part is a ****ty place to live. I have to put the interest of my family and my country first before anyone else (excluding the good lord of course).

3) IT is within the United States' best interest that N. Korea not have nuclear weapons. Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact it was not a questions of if they can actually deliver the bomb but when. Removing the capability of the bomb now saves us the greater threat of the bomb and the delivery system.


4) I love my country completely even with her faults. I would go so far as to say I am an American Nationalist because I feel she is definately better then any other place on earth. While respecting human rights and the rights of her citizens America should do anything and everything in her power to continue and expand her power and influence to insure a free and prosperous future for our children.

5) Countries like China should be taken apart from the inside and there government replaced.

Maybe not 5-10 years from now but within the near future another great war is coming between China and the U.S. It's growing too fast and too bold to not bop heads with us eventually.

6) I have a different kind of patriotism then some people. I'm by no means a racist and love and respect all forms of life but my country and it's allies definately my priority.

Better to be rid of powerful hostile governments lest they be trouble later.

Sorry if this offends anyone but this is how I feel. USA all day! :wink: :laugh:
1) Really? But only on the international scene right?? I mean if the Government comes to collect your guns...I betcha you wouldnt want America to win THAT one...and I betcha you would suddenly care a great deal about the moral aspect of your Government...Basically, you simply dont care about the rest of the world, your Government can be as oppressive to the international community as they like...but GOD forbid they are oppressive even slightly, in YOUR direction. Correct?

2) Have you even been to a different Country Crisco?

3) Well, actually, the treatize that all forbid North Korea having Nuclear weapons are international. If Your Government refuses to acknowledge International Law...why does it have a problem with North Korea breaking a law that it doesnt assume applies to itself?? This world is one law for everyone...its not a law for the North Koreans...but the United States can do whatever it likes...The US broke the law BIG TIME with Iraq....and I've seen NO repuccusions for that. Perhaps when the North Koreans break the law big time and bomb you, you might suddenly see why International Law WAS so important. Not that I think that will ever happen. It happens to be in the whole worlds interest that North Korea have no nukes...I'm just saying with American Records in International Law...thats like Hermes Franca putting up a stink about GSP greasing...I mean...lets not forget the Steroids Franca took. You see the parrallel im sure.

4) Most Americans are Nationalist by European Standards. They think they are best, they think they are always right, they think the rules do not apply to them. But usually the Americans arent to bad with it. They are Nationalistic within their ownself...but they dont usually throw it onto others.

I happen to aggree that America probably is the best place to live on Earth, its spacious, its cheap, its first world, its stable, and Americans are bigger and better. LOL, I get accused of positive Racism when it comes to Americans...but we all have our Faubles :laugh:

5) Well, in terms of Numbers, America has already lost the war against the Chinese. They are bloody everywhere :laugh: One in three Humanbeings is Chinese :blink:

6) There is patriotism and there is Nationalism, I think you err towards the right of Patriotism, personally...but then, the Americans see anything remotly centrist as being Communist...and Europe sees anything remotely Patriotic as being Fascist. The truth is, its all relative. In Europe you'd stick out like a sore thumb, but in the US I imagine your amoung friends, some who are FAR more Right then you.

Dont worry...I still love you Crisco :ashamed: :laugh:

atomdanger
06-10-2009, 10:32 PM
Honestly I tried to join the military after being released by the state,
they don't let people with my sort of felony join.

Hughes_GOAT
06-11-2009, 12:32 AM
nah, i know the quote's legit. i just thought it was the Tokyo Governor. i read some things from the NSA and him the same day.

fundamental differences sounds about right. you sound like you agree with me when you say NK isn't a threat right now.

i don't think they envy our posessions either. they may think of them as Devil's work.

Hughes_GOAT
06-11-2009, 12:34 AM
have you just changed your view or something Andreas? coz I've never recalled having you fight along side me in this kinda debate before...and we have had this kind of debate before on here...maybe it was just during some of your AWOL months... :laugh:
no, i've always been pro world opinion.

J.B.
06-11-2009, 12:51 AM
nah, i know the quote's legit. i just thought it was the Tokyo Governor. i read some things from the NSA and him the same day.

fundamental differences sounds about right. you sound like you agree with me when you say NK isn't a threat right now.

i don't think they envy our posessions either. they may think of them as Devil's work.

Do I think NK is a threat right now, as in can they actually nuke us right this minute? No.

Are they a threat in general? Yes I think so.

As for envy, like I said, it's not that it's ALL about our possessions. Rather just our way of life in general. It's a much easier way of life here in the States compared to many places abroad. Not even because of the pointless stuff like Ipods, TV's, and cell-phones, but rather the simple amenities we tend to take for granted. Clean running water, heat, electricity, gas... you see where I am going.

Also, I do agree with you that there is fundamental differences that make us unpopular, and it's not ALL about envy. However, I do think that the envy exists to a degree, and I think it's something that helps harden people's anti-American views abroad. Even if their primary problem with America is a fundamental one.

Hughes_GOAT
06-11-2009, 01:24 AM
ok, so you agree on one part but not the other.

envy would be last on my list.....even if i actually believed they were.

there are multiple things with America that bother these countries. almost all of which could be alleviated if we wanted.

J.B.
06-11-2009, 01:44 AM
ok, so you agree on one part but not the other.

envy would be last on my list.....even if i actually believed they were.

there are multiple things with America that bother these countries. almost all of which could be alleviated if we wanted.

Like I said, the envy is certainly not the primary cause, but it most certainly exists. Even if they don't always manifest it as envy, it's still there. It's not EVERYBODY either, but as I said, I do believe it exists.

I'm curious, what are some of the things you think America needs to change in order to improve it's world perception?

Hughes_GOAT
06-11-2009, 01:55 AM
Like I said, the envy is certainly not the primary cause, but it most certainly exists. Even if they don't always manifest it as envy, it's still there. It's not EVERYBODY either, but as I said, I do believe it exists.

I'm curious, what are some of the things you think America needs to change in order to improve it's world perception?
well i know you think that, hence, our differing opinions. i just don't buy it.

go and read Dave's well written posts and start with that.

Hughes_GOAT
06-11-2009, 02:27 AM
and Dave, i didn't go AWOL. that would mean i needed permission to leave.

J.B.
06-11-2009, 03:04 AM
well i know you think that, hence, our differing opinions. i just don't buy it.

go and read Dave's well written posts and start with that.

Dave's recent posts are addressing Crisco's opinion that we should just blow them up. Other than that, Dave has AGREED that North Korea should not have nuclear weapons.

Besides, I want to know what YOU think America is doing wrong. :)

This petty argument over "international law" is moot in my opinion. To say America breaks international law all the time, so we should not care when another country does is a dangerous road to travel down. All countries have violated international law one way or another, and it's situational. You need to look at each individual situation and the facts involved in order to properly judge the actions of a nation. In this case the facts are clear, Kim Jong Ill is a psycho dictator who cannot be trusted, and the whole world knows it.

Neezar
06-11-2009, 04:18 AM
Seriously though, if you really believe that other countries who don't have it half as good as we do living here in America don't envy us, even just a little bit, then you are being silly. I never said that is ALL of it , but it's a definitely a part.



Are we envied?


Look at how many people die trying to make it to America. How many other countries have that happen?

We are by far still the best place in the world to be. Some people want to set us on scale with other countries and have us be equals. No one ever achieved better by trying to be equal. I don't WANT to be equal to other countries. The US is where it is today because we have strived to be BETTER. Amen.

J.B.
06-11-2009, 04:44 AM
Are we envied?


Look at how many people die trying to make it to America. How many other countries have that happen?

We are by far still the best place in the world to be. Some people want to set us on scale with other countries and have us be equals. No one ever achieved better by trying to be equal. I don't WANT to be equal to other countries. The US is where it is today because we have strived to be BETTER. Amen.

Excellent point! :wink:

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 12:01 PM
Honestly I tried to join the military after being released by the state,
they don't let people with my sort of felony join.
What were you charged with? and...did you do it?? and what was the punishment :huh:

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 12:13 PM
Are we envied?


Look at how many people die trying to make it to America. How many other countries have that happen?

We are by far still the best place in the world to be. Some people want to set us on scale with other countries and have us be equals. No one ever achieved better by trying to be equal. I don't WANT to be equal to other countries. The US is where it is today because we have strived to be BETTER. Amen.
plenty have died trying to make it to England, but I wouldnt expect you to know that.

Again..if you arent Equal, your claiming to be SUPERIOR...isnt that what the Nationalists and Fascists claim? After all...think of the first line of the German National Anthem "Germany, Germany, over all, over all in the world" isnt that EXACTLY what you are saying about America? Do you see why, sometimes the rest of the world is frightened by what you might try and do...do you think rulling over others BY FEAR is a good or healthy thing?

Look at the troubles that the Eastern Block went through with Russia...all because they sided with you lot out of fear, with the Extention of Starwars. Do you even know your Government in an international sense?

Being "Better" is to see yourself as you really are. Your a super power, the most recent in an EXTREMELY long line. One day you, like all the rest, will fall from Grace and retire, just like England has. To strive to do "better" would be to try and learn from the mistakes made by your predecessors....But you didnt listen to Europe when they told you you would be in Iraq for year...You honnestly believed you could go in, and then a month later, you declaire the war over in victory. Did you learn NOTHING from the English in Northern Ireland?? Do you even learn from your own wars?

Its all very well being an idealist, but in practicality, I'm not sure half of you know what actually lies beyond the boarders of your own State, much less the way in which the world works outside of the United States. Again I would say be VERY careful of Pride. Love your Nation for what it is...but do not put her on a pedestal where she can fall off and be broken.

The United States is where it is because it was late Joining World War Two and was the only nation with Money to rebuild and invest. If you looked at your History you would see, its not all about an ideology. You are, what you are, because you failed to help until it was nearly too late during the war. Who knows what would have happened with the cold war, if Russia had not collapsed internally. I suppose you think it was the American Resistance to the evil communists that won that fight? Not really. More a case of the Internal Workings of your adversary. Effectively Russia withdrew between rounds, America did not Finish Her.

Crisco
06-11-2009, 12:50 PM
plenty have died trying to make it to England, but I wouldnt expect you to know that.

Again..if you arent Equal, your claiming to be SUPERIOR...isnt that what the Nationalists and Fascists claim? After all...think of the first line of the German National Anthem "Germany, Germany, over all, over all in the world" isnt that EXACTLY what you are saying about America? Do you see why, sometimes the rest of the world is frightened by what you might try and do...do you think rulling over others BY FEAR is a good or healthy thing?

Look at the troubles that the Eastern Block went through with Russia...all because they sided with you lot out of fear, with the Extention of Starwars. Do you even know your Government in an international sense?

Being "Better" is to see yourself as you really are. Your a super power, the most recent in an EXTREMELY long line. One day you, like all the rest, will fall from Grace and retire, just like England has. To strive to do "better" would be to try and learn from the mistakes made by your predecessors....But you didnt listen to Europe when they told you you would be in Iraq for year...You honnestly believed you could go in, and then a month later, you declaire the war over in victory. Did you learn NOTHING from the English in Northern Ireland?? Do you even learn from your own wars?

Its all very well being an idealist, but in practicality, I'm not sure half of you know what actually lies beyond the boarders of your own State, much less the way in which the world works outside of the United States. Again I would say be VERY careful of Pride. Love your Nation for what it is...but do not put her on a pedestal where she can fall off and be broken.

The United States is where it is because it was late Joining World War Two and was the only nation with Money to rebuild and invest. If you looked at your History you would see, its not all about an ideology. You are, what you are, because you failed to help until it was nearly too late during the war. Who knows what would have happened with the cold war, if Russia had not collapsed internally. I suppose you think it was the American Resistance to the evil communists that won that fight? Not really. More a case of the Internal Workings of your adversary. Effectively Russia withdrew between rounds, America did not Finish Her.


Your point could be argued all day long.

Sometimes you say The U.S. didn't save WW2 and sometimes you say it did.

You claim we don't know what goes on outside of our country and the answer is obviously we do if we believe we do it better. The only other countries that comes close are Britain and canada and you yourself are trying to get your way to live here.

We live in relative safety and don't suffer from national phobia like Europe.

I truly do hope America reigns over all for a very long time. It's better then living under China.

No one here is claiming Americans are better simply that America is better.

rearnakedchoke
06-11-2009, 01:01 PM
I don't really care if America is right or wrong in a dispute with another country as long as she is victorious.

At the end of the day the rest of the world for the most part is a ****ty place to live. I have to put the interest of my family and my country first before anyone else (excluding the good lord of course).

IT is within the United States' best interest that N. Korea not have nuclear weapons. Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact it was not a questions of if they can actually deliver the bomb but when. Removing the capability of the bomb now saves us the greater threat of the bomb and the delivery system.


I love my country completely even with her faults. I would go so far as to say I am an American Nationalist because I feel she is definately better then any other place on earth. While respecting human rights and the rights of her citizens America should do anything and everything in her power to continue and expand her power and influence to insure a free and prosperous future for our children.

Countries like China should be taken apart from the inside and there government replaced.

Maybe not 5-10 years from now but within the near future another great war is coming between China and the U.S. It's growing too fast and too bold to not bop heads with us eventually.

I have a different kind of patriotism then some people. I'm by no means a racist and love and respect all forms of life but my country and it's allies definately my priority.

Better to be rid of powerful hostile governments lest they be trouble later.

Sorry if this offends anyone but this is how I feel. USA all day! :wink: :laugh:
So if America decided she wanted to be like the German Nazi regime and started a mission of genocide you would be ok with that? What if America decided it wanted to attack your beloved Israel, would that be cool in your eyes? If so than you are just a sheep and have no mind of your own ...

Crisco
06-11-2009, 01:04 PM
So if America decided she wanted to be like the German Nazi regime and started a mission of genocide you would be ok with that? What if America decided it wanted to attack your beloved Israel, would that be cool in your eyes? If so than you are just a sheep and have no mind of your own ...

Please read more carefully.

I said this:

While respecting human rights and the rights of her citizens America should do anything and everything in her power to continue and expand her power and influence to insure a free and prosperous future for our children.

Hughes_GOAT
06-11-2009, 04:06 PM
excellent points Dave and RNC!

Hughes_GOAT
06-11-2009, 04:23 PM
number 1 JB, i was referring to Dave's points on how America is viewed by the rest of the world, not the NK part...you weren't asking about that anyway so don't bring it up like it discredits my agreeing with him on the rest.

number 2, i referred to Dave because he wrote out my thoughts on the subject so well, no need to bother writing mine.

number 3, while you say every situation is different, it's not to the US. we label all leaders we don't get along with as evil dictators who can't be trusted.

Neezar
06-11-2009, 04:42 PM
plenty have died trying to make it to England, but I wouldnt expect you to know that.

Again..if you arent Equal, your claiming to be SUPERIOR...
See below.

isnt that what the Nationalists and Fascists claim? After all...think of the first line of the German National Anthem "Germany, Germany, over all, over all in the world" isnt that EXACTLY what you are saying about America? Do you see why, sometimes the rest of the world is frightened by what you might try and do...do you think rulling over others BY FEAR is a good or healthy thing?

Striving to be better does not equal trying to rule the world.

Look at the troubles that the Eastern Block went through with Russia...all because they sided with you lot out of fear, with the Extention of Starwars. Do you even know your Government in an international sense?

Being "Better" is to see yourself as you really are. Your a super power, the most recent in an EXTREMELY long line. One day you, like all the rest, will fall from Grace and retire, just like England has. To strive to do "better" would be to try and learn from the mistakes made by your predecessors....But you didnt listen to Europe when they told you you would be in Iraq for year...You honnestly believed you could go in, and then a month later, you declaire the war over in victory. Did you learn NOTHING from the English in Northern Ireland?? Do you even learn from your own wars?

Who believed that we would be in and out in a month? I have never heard anyone even come close to implying that.

Its all very well being an idealist, but in practicality, I'm not sure half of you know what actually lies beyond the boarders of your own State, much less the way in which the world works outside of the United States. Again I would say be VERY careful of Pride. Love your Nation for what it is...but do not put her on a pedestal where she can fall off and be broken.

Another good example of why you will never understand America or her culture.
First of all, my nation can fall and be broken whether I have her on a pedestal or not. Secondly, I refuse to feel like honoring and loving my country is a bad thing. We have seen patriotism and loyalty to your country dissolve in other countries and we should learn from their mistakes. We shall continue to take PRIDE in our country and NEVER view it as a bad thing.


The United States is where it is because it was late Joining World War Two and was the only nation with Money to rebuild and invest. :laugh:
If you looked at your History you would see, its not all about an ideology. You are, what you are, because you failed to help until it was nearly too late during the war. Who knows what would have happened

Exactly! Who knows what would have happened. You certainly don't. You could finish your sentence 'The United States is where it is because.......' with any number of things and it still be true. No one knows what would have happened if it had went differently. And that doesn't even deserve being argued because it is all conjecture.


with the cold war, if Russia had not collapsed internally. I suppose you think it was the American Resistance to the evil communists that won that fight? Not really. More a case of the Internal Workings of your adversary. Effectively Russia withdrew between rounds, America did not Finish Her.




Again..if you arent Equal, your claiming to be SUPERIOR...

This is ludicrous. You are word playing to make it seem as if it is a bad thing. Striving to be better does NOT mean that you are prancing around announcing you are superior. I understand that England is all about classes and that the general culture is based around who is superior to whom but WE don't have that mind set. Striving to be better doesn't equate to trying to rise above your station like it does over there. We believe it to be a good thing to try to improve or better yourself. And you can do that without holding to the notion that it would make you SUPERIOR to anyone else. Striving to be better does NOT mean that you have to look down on others.

Crisco
06-11-2009, 04:50 PM
Again..if you arent Equal, your claiming to be SUPERIOR...

This is ludicrous. You are word playing to make it seem as if it is a bad thing. Striving to be better does NOT mean that you are prancing around announcing you are superior. I understand that England is all about classes and that the general culture is based around who is superior to whom but WE don't have that mind set. Striving to be better doesn't equate to trying to rise above your station like it does over there. We believe it to be a good thing to try to improve or better yourself. And you can do that without holding to the notion that it would make you SUPERIOR to anyone else. Striving to be better does NOT mean that you have to look down on others.

+2

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 05:06 PM
Your point could be argued all day long.

1)Sometimes you say The U.S. didn't save WW2 and sometimes you say it did.

2) You claim we don't know what goes on outside of our country and the answer is obviously we do if we believe we do it better. The only other countries that comes close are Britain and canada and you yourself are trying to get your way to live here.

3)We live in relative safety and don't suffer from national phobia like Europe.

4) I truly do hope America reigns over all for a very long time. It's better then living under China.

5) No one here is claiming Americans are better simply that America is better.
1) Well America is a super power because she was the only one left with much money after the War, we had two world wars within half a century, we were broke. Now, America probably helpped turn the tide of the war...but she didnt come to our aid at Dunkirk, she capitalized on Germany Stupidity in going after Russia instead of the UK.

So did her entry into the war, change the tide of it. Yes. Was she lucky she got that opportunity after Dunkirk? Yes. Was she the one who rebuilt Europe at least in terms of trade and industry after the War. Yes Is she a super power because of this. YES. Did she beat Russia during the Cold War. No, Russia Collapsed. Have we really seen a war between Russia and the United States? Not by todays standards. Will we ever? Not before China I dont think, or some rougue nation...like North Korea or Iran for example.

2) Plenty of places have a good standard of Living. The United States, Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Greece, The Entire Baltic Region, and The United Kingdom. The point is, you often speak about things that you have never experienced as a Nation. You speak about Fascism, but you have never faced it on your side of the Planet, You talk about Communism, but you have, again, never experienced it, nor been particularly close to any country that ever has. You Condemn other Nationalists, but are very close to the top of the list when it comes to the most Patriotic Country on the Planet, You say your Government is going to hell when you have a Democrat who is RIGHT of Centre. You have never been invaded. You have never Experienced a single Bombing raid (outside of Pearl Harbour...unless you count some of the Coastal Warfare from the ships of antiquity during the War of Independance. You have never had unfriendly neighbours with a land boarder, You have a History that dates back less then 400 years. The point is that you say you are the best...but your actually a privlilaged people because you havent really experienced first hand most of the Evils of the International Community...not in comparison to almost every other Country. Yet you dont value our imput, or our opinions. You dont learn from the mistakes we made.

...and you dont coorperate very well with your Allied Forces. You dont even bother to allow your servicemen or a representative to attend an English Hearing when you committ an act of "Friendly Fire", Infact you openly REFUSE to attend, and kill some of the British Troops. Now if it were vice-versa, I am SURE that the Americans would demand the British at least bother to show up for a hearing (we arent talking about a court, we are talking about a public inquiry for the relatives etc) and RIGHTLY So. We also sacrifice ourselves on your behalf. We were hated in Europe after we sided with you, rather then the rest of the World. We were Bombed because we sent our Troops in to steal the soverignty of anothers on allegations that turned out to be less then completely accurate. We allow your Military to take over a percentage of Our Force Bases so that you can listen for incoming Missile attacks (there is such a post less the 40 mins walk from my house) We see that this is not just the American Government, but the people also. Their Greed nearly brought about the worst financial dissastor in the history of accountancy, and the first thing they say is to avoid bailing the banks out, and to hell with the consequences that might have on the rest of the whole world, on the Allies who risked themselves for you...thankfully your Government ignored the ignorant people, who, saddly were probably completelt and utterly UNAWARE of what had happened in the two days that the decision was delayed. Businesses shut, unemployment went through the roof, and across Europe Banks merged and became Government Run.

The closest you get to understanding this, what its like, is when Wal-Mart moves into a nearby City and all the trade in the villiage dies. There is a great deal of difference in talking from a book...and talking from having experienced it...and I hope your country never does experience it...I just wish that in the meantime your Citizens and Government might try to treat the rest of the World like they have some knowledge about what they are talking about.

3) You havent experienced it. Thats why you are unafraid of it. Its alright to be in the Extreme Right in the United States...but you wait, if you got someone like that as President. A charismatic Guy who spoke the words you wanted to hear, at a time of great Peril...and then, before you realized what was going on, had you completely at their mercy and started abusing you. You would suddenly be a little less Patriotic...You already have the seeds, you already dont trust your government, you already are willing to war against your own Government...all these are things that, one day, you truely might have to do. We dont fear our Governments like you do. We tackle it the other way, we supress Nationality...then its a non issue, its just Governments shouting at each other...its not personal, or nationalistic, they are all as bad as each other. I think of my Government...and it could be mine, it could be the French, it could be any Government in Europe.

Being a Royalist, I am at heart, an Imperialist, which is why I have an attraction to the United States. I recognise that two hundred years ago, her mind set would have fitted in perfectly, and I love the mindset...but I also recognise that times have changed, and I'm seeking what should be ghosts of the past, in Nations of the present which show the same characteristics.

There is a conflict inside me. Part of me LIKES America EXACTLY FOR the nationalism, that something is still sacred to her, and she still has desires that belong with an Empire. The other half recognises that in this day and age, that is like playing with fire.

4) Well yes...rather America then any of the other options. Noone wants Islam, noone wants Russians, and noone wants the Chinese.

5) See...I kinda see it the other way round. There is just something about an American that you dont find in anyone that is not born there :laugh: I know thats Racist...but its more about preferance. I am not saying that Americans are Superior in reality...but I DO consider them Superior, personally. Americans are just amazing. In a good way. Its not meant to put any other countries down, I dont mind any humanbeing...but Americans are...special :ashamed: :laugh:

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 05:18 PM
Again..if you arent Equal, your claiming to be SUPERIOR...

This is ludicrous. You are word playing to make it seem as if it is a bad thing. Striving to be better does NOT mean that you are prancing around announcing you are superior. I understand that England is all about classes and that the general culture is based around who is superior to whom but WE don't have that mind set. Striving to be better doesn't equate to trying to rise above your station like it does over there. We believe it to be a good thing to try to improve or better yourself. And you can do that without holding to the notion that it would make you SUPERIOR to anyone else. Striving to be better does NOT mean that you have to look down on others.
So your saying the Americans DONT look down on the rest of the International Community???:huh:

Denise...it is simple. You are either all equal, or there is a hierachy. The United States doesnt treat anyone else like their "Equal" I'm sure you said yourself that the countries ARENT Equal, and the America is at the top? are you saying that is a fact...or just personal preference?

If you are saying that because you believe it is Factually True, no matter what nationality you are, then thats a dangerous road. If your just saying "look I'm american, so from my point of view America is best" thats ENTIRELY different

ONE is Patriotism...one is Nationalism.

The Question is...is it a FACT or an OPINION that America is the best :)

Crisco
06-11-2009, 05:23 PM
We have gone to war with mexico in the past David. It's how we aquired the western part of our nation.

You don't have to live under communism and facism to know they are bad. I'm not exactly sure where your arguement is going.

It is not always about standard of living it is about rights and freedoms. In England you have cameras everywhere with big brother watching your every move. Your people from your own words generally show a disdain for anything patriotic up too and including the mere display of their flag.

Your medical from your own admission is sub par due to NHS(I think that is what it's called)

I'm no trying to discredit Britain or any other place simply stating that America is a shining light of civilization. You can choose to agree or disagree with me.

I love my country and I hope she continues to rule the world for a very long time because I know my kids will live better under her government then any other in the world.

Crisco
06-11-2009, 05:25 PM
So your saying the Americans DONT look down on the rest of the International Community???:huh:

Denise...it is simple. You are either all equal, or there is a hierachy. The United States doesnt treat anyone else like their "Equal" I'm sure you said yourself that the countries ARENT Equal, and the America is at the top? are you saying that is a fact...or just personal preference?

If you are saying that because you believe it is Factually True, no matter what nationality you are, then thats a dangerous road. If your just saying "look I'm american, so from my point of view America is best" thats ENTIRELY different

ONE is Patriotism...one is Nationalism.

The Question is...is it a FACT or an OPINION that America is the best :)

It all depends on what you mean by best. We can look at facts and figures all day long and compare what we suck at and what we don't but at the end of the day 95% of all intelligent people in the world will tell you that America is the best place to live.

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 05:34 PM
1) We have gone to war with mexico in the past David. It's how we aquired the western part of our nation.

2) You don't have to live under communism and facism to know they are bad. I'm not exactly sure where your arguement is going.

3) It is not always about standard of living it is about rights and freedoms. In England you have cameras everywhere with big brother watching your every move. Your people from your own words generally show a disdain for anything patriotic up too and including the mere display of their flag.

Your medical from your own admission is sub par due to NHS(I think that is what it's called)

4) I'm no trying to discredit Britain or any other place simply stating that America is a shining light of civilization. You can choose to agree or disagree with me.

I love my country and I hope she continues to rule the world for a very long time because I know my kids will live better under her government then any other in the world.
:blink: I have never heard of the United States having a war with Mexico :mellow:

2) The point is, do you listen to the advise of people who have BEEN there or not? America knows she has no experience, but still chooses to ignore the rest of the world :ninja: thats the point I was making

3) Thats why I'm a Royalist at heart. I'm one of very few people who care about that sorta thing anymore. For me its about continuity of Tradition more then it is actually about Nationality. Its not that I think we should all raise flags because that represents England. Its more that I feel the flag is historic, its always been flown, it always should be flown, that is the proper manner in which things should work. I'm certainly not against anyone of different colour or creed being in England...I mean they need sensible immigration obviously.

Yes there are cameras everywhere...but there are probably cameras everywhere in certain parts of the United States...I bet your big cities are much like England in that respect. Yes Firearms are outlawed...but then we have next to no land on which to hunt, and our law is quite different from yours regarding what you can and cant do to protect yourself when it comes down to consequences...something that wouldnt be an issue if they brought back Tyburn...if they made it so crime equates to something more terrible, crime is less likely to happen.

There is nothing wrong with the National Health Service...its just Verrrrrra slow. But then we have a vast population for our size. :laugh:

4) I aggree...but not in the terms you think. I believe that America is a shining beacon because of her Christian Heratage and because she still displays it. I think that she is still very difficult to deal with in terms of International Community. England is still the shinning Beacon of the International World...Tarnished...but still.

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 05:38 PM
It all depends on what you mean by best. We can look at facts and figures all day long and compare what we suck at and what we don't but at the end of the day 95% of all intelligent people in the world will tell you that America is the best place to live.
Best...as in Best in Everything...you know THE Best :laugh:

Crisco
06-11-2009, 05:39 PM
Best...as in Best in Everything...you know THE Best :laugh:

You don't have to be the best at everything to be the best.

Crisco
06-11-2009, 05:41 PM
The primary reason America ignores the rest of the world is because generally speaking the rest of the world does not have our best interest at heart.

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 06:08 PM
You don't have to be the best at everything to be the best.
:blink: Now your confusing me. :laugh:

Crisco...I doubt your Government always has the citizens "bests interests" at heart. What thye best interests are is up for debate, for a start...secondly Governments sometimes act in the GOVERNMENTS best interest, not the citizens best interest.

America is neither the People, nor the Government. She is just a never changing Ideology, founded on Christian Principles, with a Perfect Constitution, a Large Flag that represents Her, and a Beautiful National Anthem. :) She doesnt need an Established Church, She'd rather have as little Government as possible, and Her Citizens like a hive or collective, generate Her Characteristics, which come to light when her State Boudaries no longer Limit her Federal Commitment, and a Peoples of many different Colours and inheritance strive to better themselves, to reach their personal potential under the American Dream, where they can be Blessed with Freedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSodpVnQHH8

Crisco
06-11-2009, 06:20 PM
:blink: Now your confusing me. :laugh:

Crisco...I doubt your Government always has the citizens "bests interests" at heart. What thye best interests are is up for debate, for a start...secondly Governments sometimes act in the GOVERNMENTS best interest, not the citizens best interest.

America is neither the People, nor the Government. She is just a never changing Ideology, founded on Christian Principles, with a Perfect Constitution, a Large Flag that represents Her, and a Beautiful National Anthem. :) She doesnt need an Established Church, She'd rather have as little Government as possible, and Her Citizens like a hive or collective, generate Her Characteristics, which come to light when her State Boudaries no longer Limit her Federal Commitment, and a Peoples of many different Colours and inheritance strive to better themselves, to reach their personal potential under the American Dream, where they can be Blessed with Freedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSodpVnQHH8

You missed my point Dave. It was regarding what you said about listening to the other nations of the world and why we do not. Because they do not always have our best interest in mind.

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 07:24 PM
You missed my point Dave. It was regarding what you said about listening to the other nations of the world and why we do not. Because they do not always have our best interest in mind.
why would they have your best interests in mind :huh:

The point of Internationality is not that you always get what you want. The point is that you can negotiate, and you should be prepared to...you dont live alone on this planet. :)

Crisco
06-11-2009, 07:33 PM
why would they have your best interests in mind :huh:

The point of Internationality is not that you always get what you want. The point is that you can negotiate, and you should be prepared to...you dont live alone on this planet. :)



Exactly. Why should we adhere to the international when it is not in our interest?

We have the power and we usually have the moral authority depending on the situation.

I see no need for The United States to bow to international pressure if it does not benefit us in some way especially in regards to dictators and resident mad men.

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 07:48 PM
Exactly. Why should we adhere to the international when it is not in our interest?

We have the power and we usually have the moral authority depending on the situation.

I see no need for The United States to bow to international pressure if it does not benefit us in some way especially in regards to dictators and resident mad men.
Your Morals should tell you, that you dont have the right outside of your own boarders. You shouldnt tresspass on land that doesnt belong to you, you shouldnt steal soverignty that doesnt belong to you. These are all MORAL points where your authority is in decline.

You think that the capture and removal of Saddam justifies the Invasion, but that is NOT the case. You went in because you told your friends, that we were in immediate danger. that turned out to be a lie. Saddams execution was a silver linning to a BIG cloud. Tell me, why when it is customary for Dictators to be held in a Court infront of the whole world...such was not the trial of Saddam? I'll tell you why. You couldnt Try him in such a Court because of the manner in which he came into your possession. Thats why he was tried by IRAQI Law, and NOT International Law

Nevermind the fact a Totalitarian Regieme has been toppled. Because there are a dozen others that you neglected to topple. What about the effects on your friends? Did you ever stop to consider, what effect it would have on your Allied Forces? WTF is in it FOR US???? London being Bombed!!! Being Hated in Europe!!! ...and not even an apperance by the Military men who accidently killed our Troops!! No...infact, now noone believes us when we say that we didnt help you to torture people pertaining to terrorism, people hated Tony so much he was pretty much pushed from the party, now we are left with an unellected Prime Minister.

But none of that matters to you I dont suppose. So long as your selfish interests were fulfilled. Tell me...is that really a Christian Attitude? Your Country is founded on Christian Principles...why dont you think its good to apply them in the International Arena?? You are the last great Vestige of Christianity with the power and moral authority granted to you by GOD....

...and you ask me why you shouldnt just be eternally selfish?? :blink:

Crisco
06-11-2009, 07:56 PM
Your Morals should tell you, that you dont have the right outside of your own boarders. You shouldnt tresspass on land that doesnt belong to you, you shouldnt steal soverignty that doesnt belong to you. These are all MORAL points where your authority is in decline.

You think that the capture and removal of Saddam justifies the Invasion, but that is NOT the case. You went in because you told your friends, that we were in immediate danger. that turned out to be a lie. Saddams execution was a silver linning to a BIG cloud. Tell me, why when it is customary for Dictators to be held in a Court infront of the whole world...such was not the trial of Saddam? I'll tell you why. You couldnt Try him in such a Court because of the manner in which he came into your possession. Thats why he was tried by IRAQI Law, and NOT International Law

Nevermind the fact a Totalitarian Regieme has been toppled. Because there are a dozen others that you neglected to topple. What about the effects on your friends? Did you ever stop to consider, what effect it would have on your Allied Forces? WTF is in it FOR US???? London being Bombed!!! Being Hated in Europe!!! ...and not even an apperance by the Military men who accidently killed our Troops!! No...infact, now noone believes us when we say that we didnt help you to torture people pertaining to terrorism, people hated Tony so much he was pretty much pushed from the party, now we are left with an unellected Prime Minister.

But none of that matters to you I dont suppose. So long as your selfish interests were fulfilled. Tell me...is that really a Christian Attitude? Your Country is founded on Christian Principles...why dont you think its good to apply them in the International Arena?? You are the last great Vestige of Christianity with the power and moral authority granted to you by GOD....

...and you ask me why you shouldnt just be eternally selfish?? :blink:

Even as David conquered his enemies for God there where casualties David.

I care very deeply for the plight of America's allies(her real allies). I think it was completely and utterly horrible that we never bothered to show up to your friendly fire meeting.

Britain has a special place in my heart as does Israel. France, Russia, China can all go **** themselves if you'll pardon my language.

Being hated is not really a problem. Countries full of non-muslim whites are usually hate by the middle east no matter what.

Britain was once the most hated entity on the planet for quite a while due to its foreign policy. It is a course every great nation must take.

At the end of the day my primary concern is the safety and well being of my country and my countrymen. Everyone else comes second and that is just how I am. It may not be logical or appear to be right in your eyes but that is me. I'd sooner see 100 chinese soldiers die in a plane crash then see one American soldier lose a leg to a landmine. I know it seems cruel but that is just how I feel.

America above all and may her allies prosper with her.

As for my Christianity I have many hopes that people will convert and be born again but I know just like God said many will not. My primary concern is for souls not for bank accounts or possesions as a Christian. I'm sorry if your economy is centered around ours but we didn't do that all by ourselves.

**** happens in life Dave. We have to deal with it in our own way.

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 08:06 PM
Even as David conquered his enemies for God there where casualties David.

I care very deeply for the plight of America's allies(her real allies). I think it was completely and utterly horrible that we never bothered to show up to your friendly fire meeting.

Britain has a special place in my heart as does Israel. France, Russia, China can all go **** themselves if you'll pardon my language.

Being hated is not really a problem. Countries full of non-muslim whites are usually hate by the middle east no matter what.

Britain was once the most hated entity on the planet for quite a while due to its foreign policy. It is a course every great nation must take.

At the end of the day my primary concern is the safety and well being of my country and my countrymen. Everyone else comes second and that is just how I am. It may not be logical or appear to be right in your eyes but that is me. I'd sooner see 100 chinese soldiers die in a plane crash then see one American soldier lose a leg to a landmine. I know it seems cruel but that is just how I feel.

America above all and may her allies prosper with her.

As for my Christianity I have many hopes that people will convert and be born again but I know just like God said many will not. My primary concern is for souls not for bank accounts or possesions as a Christian. I'm sorry if your economy is centered around ours but we didn't do that all by ourselves.

**** happens in life Dave. We have to deal with it in our own way.
:laugh: Crisco, we may not aggree on absolutely everything, but I still think you are fantastic. I mean, Its not that I think your view is wrong. I just can see how it might be dangerous to the rest of the world...perhaps thats just me thinking selfishly of whats in MY best interest, I dont know.

I think that America has learned from Iraq, I know that Bush learned, and considering all things, he didnt do to badly IMHO.

The funny thing is of course...neither you, nor I, are directly responsible for what our Governments do in every aspect of foreign policy...even through democrasy we are subjected often to a minority.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm holding you, personally you, responsible for everything your Country might have done that is slightly ill. We wont get started on England...because...If you think I'm bad with America :laugh: :laugh: Lets just say England is at the root of most international Evils...Iraq also happens to be one of them, its just people over look what actually took place in the United Nations with the vote.

I am sure we will all prosper :happydancing: ...until North Korea has launch Capability :unsure-1:

Then we might need your help again :rolleyes: :laugh:

Crisco
06-11-2009, 08:14 PM
:laugh: Crisco, we may not aggree on absolutely everything, but I still think you are fantastic. I mean, Its not that I think your view is wrong. I just can see how it might be dangerous to the rest of the world...perhaps thats just me thinking selfishly of whats in MY best interest, I dont know.

I think that America has learned from Iraq, I know that Bush learned, and considering all things, he didnt do to badly IMHO.

The funny thing is of course...neither you, nor I, are directly responsible for what our Governments do in every aspect of foreign policy...even through democrasy we are subjected often to a minority.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm holding you, personally you, responsible for everything your Country might have done that is slightly ill. We wont get started on England...because...If you think I'm bad with America :laugh: :laugh: Lets just say England is at the root of most international Evils...Iraq also happens to be one of them, its just people over look what actually took place in the United Nations with the vote.

I am sure we will all prosper :happydancing: ...until North Korea has launch Capability :unsure-1:

Then we might need your help again :rolleyes: :laugh:

so is the plight of America :tongue0011:


The whole world tells us we suck and to jog on until they need us for something :tongue0011:

They tell us we think we are the world police yet bitch and moan when we don't interfere in darfur.

It's a double standard and it's part of being the popular kid I guess :tongue0011:

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 08:35 PM
so is the plight of America :tongue0011:


The whole world tells us we suck and to jog on until they need us for something :tongue0011:

They tell us we think we are the world police yet bitch and moan when we don't interfere in darfur.

It's a double standard and it's part of being the popular kid I guess :tongue0011:
:laugh: you have your uses...when its in the worlds best interest :tongue0011:

Crisco
06-11-2009, 08:40 PM
:laugh: you have your uses...when its in the worlds best interest :tongue0011:

Well played sir

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 08:52 PM
Well played sir
:laugh: :happydancing: :laugh:

J.B.
06-11-2009, 08:55 PM
number 1 JB, i was referring to Dave's points on how America is viewed by the rest of the world, not the NK part...you weren't asking about that anyway so don't bring it up like it discredits my agreeing with him on the rest.

number 2, i referred to Dave because he wrote out my thoughts on the subject so well, no need to bother writing mine.

number 3, while you say every situation is different, it's not to the US. we label all leaders we don't get along with as evil dictators who can't be trusted.

The question was, What do YOU think America is doing wrong? How should America change it's ways to be better liked in the world?

Every situation IS different, and you are smart enough to know that. This has nothing to do with American's opinion on who is evil and who is not. My point was that you cannot sit here and say America trounces on international law, so we have no right to ever bring it up, when the WHOLE world does the same damn thing.

Tyburn
06-11-2009, 10:06 PM
The question was, What do YOU think America is doing wrong? How should America change it's ways to be better liked in the world?

Every situation IS different, and you are smart enough to know that. This has nothing to do with American's opinion on who is evil and who is not. My point was that you cannot sit here and say America trounces on international law, so we have no right to ever bring it up, when the WHOLE world does the same damn thing.
:w00t: Andreas and JB are fighting over ME :happydancing:

J.B.
06-11-2009, 11:14 PM
:w00t: Andreas and JB are fighting over ME :happydancing:

Oh, don't get too excited Dave, we are not fighting...we are having a civilized conversation! :laugh:

What's even funnier is that from what I have gathered, your opinions fall pretty much right in the middle of where I am at and where GOAT is. Although, you and I have had these discussions before, I have never talked about politics with GOAT.

Neezar
06-12-2009, 11:48 AM
:w00t: Andreas and JB are fighting over ME :happydancing:

:laugh:

Tyburn
06-12-2009, 11:53 AM
Oh, don't get too excited Dave, we are not fighting...we are having a civilized conversation! :laugh:

What's even funnier is that from what I have gathered, your opinions fall pretty much right in the middle of where I am at and where GOAT is. Although, you and I have had these discussions before, I have never talked about politics with GOAT.
It was a shock to me that Andreas was so Pro Internationality also..I draw the line about actually letting these Civilizations build Nukes. I mean, if it were Poland or something, I wouldnt care...but there are certain Nations that should NEVER be allowed that sort of technology. We might not be able to prevent it, but we can try and slow it down, or delay it.

We should put sanctions on them until they cant move, and if needs be, we should organise an airstrike (ONLY on the facilities where the Nukes are being assembled) That is not really a breach of Soverignty...or rather...its one they can do very little about, specifically if they are warned pre-hand. We can try State Sponcered Assassinations on their leaders in order to help minority groups that might be more trustworthy to get to power.

The difference between Andreas and I, is probably that he wouldnt sanction the above, and I would. I understand what he is saying, and I think I more or less aggree with why its happening...but I dont think we can stand back and let them break International Law, anymore then we should standback and let The US break it. :laugh: The point is...if they had nukes they might use them..therefore, they shouldnt have them. :ninja:

Tyburn
06-12-2009, 11:55 AM
:laugh:
:ashamed: I feel so special :laugh:

J.B.
06-12-2009, 12:02 PM
I mean, if it were Poland or something, I wouldnt care...

Meh...Poland...:headache:

I almost married somebody from there...ALMOST! :jumping0001:

Hughes_GOAT
06-12-2009, 05:14 PM
JB, America can start by respecting international opinion. America is viewed as a country who says, "do as i say, not as i do."
the rest of the world knows our hypocrisy knows no bounds. they also know we support Israel unquestioningly. despite countless UN violations. we veto anything against them and the world knows this. they know we supplied NK with nuclear reactors in 2000, among other things. they know we've supplied Iran as well. no need to mention Iraq. we do this all the time.

Hughes_GOAT
06-12-2009, 05:19 PM
the very reason America shouldn't be trouncing international law is they are the ones so instrumental in getting the UN established. we should be looked to for guidance, instead we are distrusted and hated. and that's why it's not envy. if we can't be trusted, then don't act suprised when these countries load up with nukes. especially when we supply them like mentioned earlier.

CAVEMAN
06-12-2009, 05:43 PM
JB, America can start by respecting international opinion. America is viewed as a country who says, "do as i say, not as i do."
the rest of the world knows our hypocrisy knows no bounds. they also know we support Israel unquestioningly. despite countless UN violations. we veto anything against them and the world knows this. they know we supplied NK with nuclear reactors in 2000, among other things. they know we've supplied Iran as well. no need to mention Iraq. we do this all the time.

Do you oppose are support of Israel?

Hughes_GOAT
06-13-2009, 06:06 PM
i oppose support of Israel's government, not their people.

read jatonyc.org and their mission statement for a good idea where i stand on this issue.