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Vizion
04-28-2009, 11:07 PM
Should Texas secede??

I find it interesting to see America is splitting down the middle on every other issue...we are TOO BIG, and our government SUCKS. America, thanks to the liberals and socilaists is fast becoming an unhealthy place to raise children as well. Now we have a polarizing Marxist president who has outspent every single president in America's history. I personally think it is just a matter of tyme before Texas becomes its own nation again. Check out this link below for a good FAQ

http://www.texassecede.com/faq.htm

"Texas is a free and independent State ... All political power is inherent in the people ... they have at all times the inalienable right to alter their government in such manner as they might think proper."
— Texas Constitution (1876)

"Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed... Whenever government becomes destructive to life, liberty, or property [i.e., the pursuit of happiness], it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it... It is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."
— American Declaration of Independence (1776)

NateR
04-29-2009, 02:19 AM
I voted that they should, but I don't think they ever will.

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 02:23 AM
I voted yes, but I don't think we will either. If the government continues on this path of bankrupting itself and pressing a socialist agenda, it's highly likely to gain support, not just here, but with other states following Texas' lead.

If there's any time in my life this is going to happen, I'd say it's within the next 3.5 years.

Crisco
04-29-2009, 01:11 PM
I voted no.

To do so now without just cause is just plan treason.

This country has not gone far enough down the hill to require any state to leave the union.

In the event there is a drastic move towards socialism I would lead the march to leave and I would stand on the front line to defend the newly formed America against it's former self.

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 08:32 PM
I dislike how Texas likes to use the death penalty alot. I wouldent mind if they left the union but i wouldent move there unless they changed their capital punishment laws

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 08:40 PM
I dislike how Texas likes to use the death penalty alot. I wouldent mind if they left the union but i wouldent move there unless they changed their capital punishment laws
Why you planning on getting in trouble oh young one? Follow the law and you got nothing to fear my friend...:)

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 08:43 PM
Why you planning on getting in trouble oh young one? Follow the law and you got nothing to fear my friend...:)
Its not that....I am strongly against capital punishment.
Not only does it desensitize people to death but it shows a total lack of respect for human life

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 08:45 PM
Its not that....I am strongly against capital punishment.
Not only does it desensitize people to death but it shows a total lack of respect for human life
I respect that. I was kidding. I am for it as long as there is clear enough evidence like DNA not just some eye witness with a bad past. Unfortunately to balance things we need good/bad... :wink:

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 08:47 PM
I respect that. I was kidding. I am for it as long as there is clear enough evidence like DNA not just some eye witness with a bad past. Unfortunately to balance things we need good/bad... :wink:
I think someone can seek redemption for no matter what they have done. And can be forgiven no matter how terrible a crime they committed. I believe they can be rehabilitated and contribute positively to society

VCURamFan
04-29-2009, 09:10 PM
Its not that....I am strongly against capital punishment.
Not only does it desensitize people to death but it shows a total lack of respect for human lifeWhat textbook are you quoting? That's total horse-hockey.

The Death Penalty is there because of respect for human life. If your disrespect human life enough to destroy it, you lose your right to your own life.

Also, bear in mind that the death penalty is an option in every murder, or even every 1st degree murder. You're only eligible for the death penalty if you commit capital murder (i.e. multiple victims, serial killers, etc.), abd even then you go through an entire second trial with a brand new jury to see whether or not you'll be condemned to death. It's called a bifurcated jury system.

Go do some real research & get back to me, boy.

Crisco
04-29-2009, 09:12 PM
I think someone can seek redemption for no matter what they have done. And can be forgiven no matter how terrible a crime they committed. I believe they can be rehabilitated and contribute positively to society

You don't know many criminals do you?

Some crimes are so horrible that the people who commit them are not safe to keep alive. Their redemption is between them and God.

God himself offers the death penalty for murder.

Recently a man where I live through his 3 yr old nephew into a river and drowned him because his brother wouldn't lend him money for drugs.

I use to feel the way you do until I started to see the evil that goes on.

I grew up around gangsters and criminals and let me tell you they DON'T change.

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 09:18 PM
What textbook are you quoting? That's total horse-hockey.

The Death Penalty is there because of respect for human life. If your disrespect human life enough to destroy it, you lose your right to your own life.

Also, bear in mind that the death penalty is an option in every murder, or even every 1st degree murder. You're only eligible for the death penalty if you commit capital murder (i.e. multiple victims, serial killers, etc.), abd even then you go through an entire second trial with a brand new jury to see whether or not you'll be condemned to death. It's called a bifurcated jury system.

Go do some real research & get back to me, boy.
Real research! Are you retarded? An "eye-for-an-eye" mentality wont bring closure to anything. Simply killing offenders is the easy way out. Execution is by no means "respect for human life." Obviously more killing results in nothing positive. An "eye-for-an-eye." mentality gets society no where

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 09:20 PM
You don't know many criminals do you?

Some crimes are so horrible that the people who commit them are not safe to keep alive. Their redemption is between them and God.

God himself offers the death penalty for murder.

Recently a man where I live through his 3 yr old nephew into a river and drowned him because his brother wouldn't lend him money for drugs.

I use to feel the way you do until I started to see the evil that goes on.

I grew up around gangsters and criminals and let me tell you they DON'T change.
Its cheaper to keep someone in prison for the rest of there life then it is to execute them.

Crisco
04-29-2009, 09:22 PM
Its cheaper to keep someone in prison for the rest of there life then it is to execute them.

Only because our system doesn't kill them fast enough.

You actually believe that man who threw a 3 yr old into a river and drowned him because his brother wouldn't give him drug money deserves to have a life?

You truly and honestly believe he deserves to live?

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 09:29 PM
Only because our system doesn't kill them fast enough.

You actually believe that man who threw a 3 yr old into a river and drowned him because his brother wouldn't give him drug money deserves to have a life?

You truly and honestly believe he deserves to live?
I believe nobody should have the power to take his life.
Realizing what he has done is worse then death. Dying is the easy way out really paying for your crimes is almost impossible. That is redemption.
Of course my immediate response would be "that person should die"
But if i calm down and think about things my greater sense of being kicks in and i come up with a better solution

TexasRN
04-29-2009, 09:36 PM
I voted no because I think Texas should just take the whole US over and rule the country by force. The Texas Rangers are up for the job.

I am a pro death penalty girl. I say we don't execute them fast enough and the Texas Fast Track plan rocks. Convict them beyond shadow of a doubt and it's to the back yard ya go. Firing squad executes them, other prisoners who are sentenced to life get the joyous job of burying the dead ones.


~Amy

VCURamFan
04-29-2009, 09:38 PM
Real research! Are you retarded? An "eye-for-an-eye" mentality wont bring closure to anything. Simply killing offenders is the easy way out. Execution is by no means "respect for human life." Obviously more killing results in nothing positive. An "eye-for-an-eye." mentality gets society no whereI think the quote you're lookingfor is "An eye-for-an-eye leaves the whole world blind." Geez, can't even get your own propaganda slogans right.

Have you done any real research? I don't mean you read a textbook that says "According to research..." or listened to a teacher who said "Resarchers have found...", I mean have you actaully gone out yourself & looked into this? As for the rest of your post, it's pointless. I already made it clear that the current system isn't life-for-a-life, or even life-for-two-lives. Even in capital murder cases, a guilty verdict does not mean a death sentence. Here, I did a litte research on your behalf:

In a bifurcated trial, the jury would first determine guilt or innocence, and then, if the defendant were found guilty, the appropriate sentence, a life term or death. The Court in Greg also sanctioned the use of a list of aggravating and mitigating factors that would provide standards to help the jury determine whether or not the defendant should receive the death penalty. This removed the jury's unlimited discretion in capital cases.

So, in my previous post I explained why the death penalty arose out of a respect for life your response was "nuh-uh". I explained that it wasn't a 1 to 1 (i.e. not "eye-for-an-eye") ratio of murders to executions your response was "eye-for-an-eye is dumb". I asked you to do research. You laughed me off. No where in any of your posts do you actually raise any legitimate arguments. You're just puke out the same old schtick you've heard someone else spout before you.

----

Now, the thing that pisses me off the most about your post is your use of the word "retarded". Just like your use of the word "rape", you're ignoring the fact that there are literally millions of people in this world with mental disabilities. You choose to take a word that is a serious condition for many people & use it as an insult. You are either: a) saying that I must be mentally handicapped if I don't agree with you; or b) saying that being mentally handicapped is as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as this argument we're having. That makes you either: a) arrogant & close minded; or b) an insensitive idiot.

Again, go do some real research (since I've already started it for you) & get back to me, boy.

Crisco
04-29-2009, 09:38 PM
I believe nobody should have the power to take his life.
Realizing what he has done is worse then death. Dying is the easy way out really paying for your crimes is almost impossible. That is redemption.
Of course my immediate response would be "that person should die"
But if i calm down and think about things my greater sense of being kicks in and i come up with a better solution

Which is put him in jail forever?

That's not closure for his father...

IF someone did that to your son would you not try to kill them? Would it make you feel betterk knowing that he laid in a closed cell every night LIVING while your 3 year old child drowned while freezing, crying and afraid probably screaming for his mother and father but no one was there to help him?

I call bull****.

I would destroy this man even if it ment my life. I would beat him to death with my bear hands. God will forgive me because this man violated his commandment and should be put to death.

God's is the only opinion that matters to me.

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 09:41 PM
F' 'em. If they kill, they deserve to be killed. If they rape somebody, they deserve do be raped. What goes around comes around.

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 09:41 PM
Which is put him in jail forever?

That's not closure for his father...

IF someone did that to your son would you not try to kill them? Would it make you feel betterk knowing that he laid in a closed cell every night LIVING while your 3 year old child drowned while freezing, crying and afraid probably screaming for his mother and father but no one was there to help him?

I call bull****.

I would destroy this man even if it ment my life. I would beat him to death with my bear hands. God will forgive me because this man violated his commandment and should be put to death.

God's is the only opinion that matters to me. Call me a vigilante if I could get rid of any scumbag that hurts a kid I would!! X.the world is full of evil and people that hurt kids have no value in this society and to me give up rights when they harm children.

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 09:42 PM
Which is put him in jail forever?

That's not closure for his father...

IF someone did that to your son would you not try to kill them? Would it make you feel betterk knowing that he laid in a closed cell every night LIVING while your 3 year old child drowned while freezing, crying and afraid probably screaming for his mother and father but no one was there to help him?

I call bull****.

I would destroy this man even if it ment my life. I would beat him to death with my bear hands. God will forgive me because this man violated his commandment and should be put to death.

God's is the only opinion that matters to me.
LOL dont use religon to justify wrong actions. Thats what terrorist do!

Crisco
04-29-2009, 09:45 PM
LOL dont use religon to justify wrong actions. Thats what terrorist do!

Don't use hippy liberal non-sense to justify inaction.

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 09:45 PM
LOL dont use religon to justify wrong actions. Thats what terrorist do!
Babyboy we should use religion with everything. To stand up for what is right and to make the right decisions in daily life.

Crisco
04-29-2009, 09:49 PM
LOL dont use religon to justify wrong actions. Thats what terrorist do!

And the terrorist use a false, misguided and completely horrid religion to further their own political goals.

MY faith justifys the punishment of those who DESERVE to be punished.

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 09:49 PM
Babyboy we should use religion with everything. To stand up for what is right and to make the right decisions in daily life.
Not to mention, our country was founded on Christian principles. Just because we allow non-Christians in this country doesn't mean these principles should change. However, the media and Liberals seem to think it's a positive step, which is one of the underlying reasons why this thread was started in the first place.

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 09:49 PM
I think the quote you're lookingfor is "An eye-for-an-eye leaves the whole world blind." Geez, can't even get your own propaganda slogans right.

Have you done any real research? I don't mean you read a textbook that says "According to research..." or listened to a teacher who said "Resarchers have found...", I mean have you actaully gone out yourself & looked into this? As for the rest of your post, it's pointless. I already made it clear that the current system isn't life-for-a-life, or even life-for-two-lives. Even in capital murder cases, a guilty verdict does not mean a death sentence. Here, I did a litte research on your behalf:



So, in my previous post I explained why the death penalty arose out of a respect for life your response was "nuh-uh". I explained that it wasn't a 1 to 1 (i.e. not "eye-for-an-eye") ratio of murders to executions your response was "eye-for-an-eye is dumb". I asked you to do research. You laughed me off. No where in any of your posts do you actually raise any legitimate arguments. You're just puke out the same old schtick you've heard someone else spout before you.

----

Now, the thing that pisses me off the most about your post is your use of the word "retarded". Just like your use of the word "rape", you're ignoring the fact that there are literally millions of people in this world with mental disabilities. You choose to take a word that is a serious condition for many people & use it as an insult. You are either: a) saying that I must be mentally handicapped if I don't agree with you; or b) saying that being mentally handicapped is as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as this argument we're having. That makes you either: a) arrogant & close minded; or b) an insensitive idiot.

Again, go do some real research (since I've already started it for you) & get back to me, boy.
You obviously are retarded if you cant see that killing is wrong. Especially when its pre-meditated by the state

Crisco
04-29-2009, 09:51 PM
You obviously are retarded if you cant see that killing is wrong. Especially when its pre-meditated by the state

Wow. I had hope for your until this post. I'll write it off to little to no real life experience and leave it at that. I won't be going on with this conversation with you.

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 09:52 PM
You obviously are retarded if you cant see that killing is wrong. Especially when its pre-meditated by the state
Ok now your pissing me off!!! Don't disrespect Ben!! He's one of the most easy people on this forum! :angry:

Crisco
04-29-2009, 09:52 PM
Ok now your pissing me off!!! Don't disrespect Ben!! He's one of the most easy people on this forum! :angry:


HA! Ben, Melis thinks your easy!

NateR
04-29-2009, 09:53 PM
One of the reasons that I like Texas so much is their death penalty laws. Of course it's mischaracterized by the liberal brainwashing factories (ie: network and cable news stations) but it's done a lot to deter crime and make Texas a safer place to live.

And I agree with Crisco and Miss Foxy about our religious beliefs. If we don't use them in EVERY aspect of our lives, then they're meaningless. Thus, a true person of faith will use his/her religious views to make ALL decisions in their life.

Saying, "that's what terrorists do" is just ridiculously ignorant and deceitful.

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 09:53 PM
HA! Ben, Melis thinks your easy!
I set myself up again!! Lol.. :)

Jonlion
04-29-2009, 09:54 PM
Texas should not leave the Union, think how bad that would be. It would undermine the whole union and i dont think there is enough justification yet to do it.

America needs to be united in times like this, not divided and isolated.

Texas made its bed when it gave England the cold shoulder and went to the Union!

Stick with it!

NateR
04-29-2009, 09:54 PM
You obviously are retarded if you cant see that killing is wrong. Especially when its pre-meditated by the state

You're obviously too closed-minded to even be capable of intelligent discussion. You need to be a little more respectful of other people's opinions if you expect to be allowed to continue posting here.

Jonlion
04-29-2009, 09:56 PM
Oh and i reserve the right for judgment here because i am going out with a Texan, you never know i could just end up a citizen in a couple of years!!!!!!!:cool:

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 09:57 PM
Ugh, it only takes 1 to make a good thread go sour.

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 09:58 PM
Ok now your pissing me off!!! Don't disrespect Ben!! He's one of the most easy people on this forum! :angry:
Maybe Ben is easy with you but hes an ass when replying to me

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 09:58 PM
Oh and i reserve the right for judgment here because i am going out with a Texan, you never know i could just end up a citizen in a couple of years!!!!!!!:cool:
If you find out how to do it in a couple of years, you'll have to educate the rest of us. :rotfl:

The process sucks!

NateR
04-29-2009, 09:58 PM
Maybe Ben is easy with you but hes an ass when replying to me

Maybe he's just a good judge of character. :rolleyes:

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 09:58 PM
Oh and i reserve the right for judgment here because i am going out with a Texan, you never know i could just end up a citizen in a couple of years!!!!!!!:cool:
True I never thought I would agree with Republicans more than Democrats ever!! Now look @ me!?!! Gee thanks Nathan!! j/k :wink:

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 09:59 PM
Maybe Ben is easy with you but hes an ass when replying to me
Ben didn't say anything demeaning to you. He simply made his point and you responded like a 14 year old through the personal attacks.

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 10:01 PM
Maybe Ben is easy with you but hes an ass when replying to me
In all honesty if you feel he's stepping on your toes let him know or anyone know sometimes we all get caught in the heat of a debate, but learn to have a better character. With that being said diffuse it not escalate it. Don't get me wrong I have my days!. Hope you seriously take these words into consideration..

Jonlion
04-29-2009, 10:02 PM
If you find out how to do it in a couple of years, you'll have to educate the rest of us. :rotfl:

The process sucks!


Ha ha i would have no idea, i just figure if i marry an American, i am set for citizenship! Im sure i can prove it isnt for a scam!

It makes me laugh when my girlfriend came to visit me here, at passport control they asked her for my address, how she knew me, how we met?

It wouldnt surprise me that the paperwork would be a nightmare!

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 10:06 PM
Ben didn't say anything demeaning to you. He simply made his point and you responded like a 14 year old through the personal attacks.
Arguing or "debating" over the internet. Honestly i get heated over things like that...
When in doubt choke em out

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 10:08 PM
Arguing or "debating" over the internet. Honestly i get heated over things like that...
When in doubt choke em out
Yeah, it's easy to make that happen, I know. I get like that on the bodybuilding.com forums sometimes. I just step away from the thread when that happens, or, at least, step away until I'm cooled off. :)

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 10:10 PM
Yeah, it's easy to make that happen, I know. I get like that on the bodybuilding.com forums sometimes. I just step away from the thread when that happens, or, at least, step away until I'm cooled off. :)
I gotta realize this is the internet. What people type in here has no substance.

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 10:11 PM
I gotta realize this is the internet. What people type in here has no substance.
Say that while looking the mirror.. :wink:

Jonlion
04-29-2009, 10:13 PM
Say that while looking the mirror.. :wink:

Ha ha! Very good! :laugh:

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 10:15 PM
Say that while looking the mirror.. :wink:
Haha that statement can go for everyone then i suppose =/

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 10:16 PM
Ha ha! Very good! :laugh:
Yeah im cool just don't mess with good people or my allies or especially MATT!!!!!! I will come *a knockin* like Candyman!!! :punch:

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 10:17 PM
Ha ha i would have no idea, i just figure if i marry an American, i am set for citizenship! Im sure i can prove it isnt for a scam!

It makes me laugh when my girlfriend came to visit me here, at passport control they asked her for my address, how she knew me, how we met?

It wouldnt surprise me that the paperwork would be a nightmare!
Well, it's not a scam, you can definitely become a citizen by marrying an American. Here's the long arduous process:

1. Get engaged and your spouse will petition for you to move in with them (from the Philippines, this process takes about 9-12 months on average, not sure about Britain, probably faster). There's a lot of paperwork involved with this, so I won't go into detail.

2. When you enter the U.S. with your Visa (K-1 or K-3), you have 90 days to get married, then file for the green card (so far, we've been waiting since early October), then they have you and your spouse come to a (hopefully) nearby location for a personal interview where they ask a lot of questions and assess your relationship status with each other.

3. After 2 years, if the marriage is successful (no divorce), then you can update your green card (I think to a permanent status), and file for citizenship - this is another process. I don't know how long this takes, but I know you have to take a test that most Americans would fail (the irony :laugh:). Once you're a citizen, you can divorce her and live here forever. Ok, that last part was the truth, and a joke. :laugh: Also, if at anytime, you do get a divorce (and I think commit a felony), they will deport you back to Britain and it's possible you'll never be allowed to re-enter the U.S.

4. Once you get your citizenship, you can petition for your parents to come live with you and criticize your wife 24/7 :rotfl:

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 10:18 PM
I gotta realize this is the internet. What people type in here has no substance.
Is that why you have 123 posts on this forum? Guess you're just wasting your time here. :rotfl:

xSubmission
04-29-2009, 10:18 PM
Yeah im cool just don't mess with good people or my allies or especially MATT!!!!!! I will come *a knockin* like Candyman!!! :punch:
I havent messed with anyone that hasent messed with me.
I wouldent say malicious things to people unless i someone said something to bothered me

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 10:22 PM
I havent messed with anyone that hasent messed with me.
I wouldent say malicious things to people unless i someone said something to bothered me
I tried being nice to you and im never nice dang it so when you foul up your messing with my emotions like Big Worm on Friday!! You were doing good til you called him retarded. Ben is so nice if you would have told him you were offended I can bet money he would have apologized or said something to make peace. You honestly don't think! Now go scrub your hands and ears for supper!! :) Im leaving work to face Cali traffic... Behave while im gone! Thats an order soldier!

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 10:24 PM
I tried being nice to you and im never nice dang it so when you foul up your messing with my emotions like Big Worm on Friday!!
LOL, watched that movie yesterday!

"playing" with my emotions, FYI :wink:

Tyburn
04-29-2009, 10:29 PM
I voted No, because if they do...others will follow...and it will ultimately be the end of the U.S IMHO :sad:

Jonlion
04-29-2009, 10:32 PM
Well, it's not a scam, you can definitely become a citizen by marrying an American. Here's the long arduous process:

1. Get engaged and your spouse will petition for you to move in with them (from the Philippines, this process takes about 9-12 months on average, not sure about Britain, probably faster). There's a lot of paperwork involved with this, so I won't go into detail.

2. When you enter the U.S. with your Visa (K-1 or K-3), you have 90 days to get married, then file for the green card (so far, we've been waiting since early October), then they have you and your spouse come to a (hopefully) nearby location for a personal interview where they ask a lot of questions and assess your relationship status with each other.

3. After 2 years, if the marriage is successful (no divorce), then you can update your green card (I think to a permanent status), and file for citizenship - this is another process. I don't know how long this takes, but I know you have to take a test that most Americans would fail (the irony :laugh:). Once you're a citizen, you can divorce her and live here forever. Ok, that last part was the truth, and a joke. :laugh: Also, if at anytime, you do get a divorce (and I think commit a felony), they will deport you back to Britain and it's possible you'll never be allowed to re-enter the U.S.

4. Once you get your citizenship, you can petition for your parents to come live with you and criticize your wife 24/7 :rotfl:

Wow! That seems like a real pain!

I would hope because things may be a little easier between the US and the Uk. Moreso if we did we could marry here or marry in America, get it done and then apply!

I have no idea but thanks for filling me. It would never be easy eh?!

Might be a few years off but i guess i should be prepared!

ufcfan2
04-29-2009, 10:50 PM
I don't know what to say without busting out in anger or laughter:rolleyes: I don't forsee this ever happening so why worry. Ya,our gov't is in a little bit of a crisis,but when its allowed to run amuk for soo long its hard to dig urself out. We as the people let this happen by re-voting in the same ppl or not voting at all. We don't demostrate as much as other countries and probably should and I'm sure the Politicians are happy we don't.
We allowed the CEO's to run rampant w/o any recourse or fear of reprisals that needs to stop. Change is a hard thing to swallow and it must be done,so Obama is in the hotseat. My fear is he actually does change us for the good and when next prez gets in it will be business as usual.
We can not go back to business as usual at Wall Street or Mainstreet if we wanna keep this country rolling. We've gotten too dependant on the wrong things,we lost our focus;schools,alternative energies,inner structures,social security,healthcare and the common American. No party can say they had our best interests in their minds and hate to blame Rep,but they've been in office more so than Democrats.
I also think were too pigheaded to try new things or try what works in other countries as we are afraid of change or we aren't gonna make any money off our people:rolleyes:
Anywho,enough of politics :)

Boomer
04-29-2009, 10:54 PM
Texas should not leave the Union, think how bad that would be. It would undermine the whole union and i dont think there is enough justification yet to do it.

America needs to be united in times like this, not divided and isolated.

Texas made its bed when it gave England the cold shoulder and went to the Union!

Stick with it!

Actually Texas left Mexico :tongue0011: .. and since Texas was once it's own sovereign nation, it actually is the only state that can legally leave the union if its people choose.

To be totally honest I have never checked this out .. but growing up there I was taught that in Texas History class.

NateR
04-29-2009, 11:08 PM
We've gotten too dependant on the wrong things,we lost our focus;schools,alternative energies,inner structures,social security,healthcare and the common American.

So, is that a list of the "wrong things" that we have lost our focus because of? And what do you mean by "the common American"?

There's absolutely nothing in the constitution that covers schools, alternative energies, inner structures (whatever you mean by that), social security, or healthcare.

Public schools should be a local and state issue, the federal government should have no control over the funding or the curriculum.

Alternative energies and Social Security are part of the current problem. Energy should be a free market issue, the government should have no say in it, and Social Security shouldn't even exist as far as I'm concerned.

Healthcare: this country survived over 200 years without nationalized healthcare (in fact, we not only survived but we thrived and became the world's sole world power), so there's no reason to believe that we suddenly need it now.

"Inner structures" (again, whatever it is that you mean by that) sounds more like something that should be left up to individual sovereignty, not the government.

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 11:25 PM
Wow! That seems like a real pain!

I would hope because things may be a little easier between the US and the Uk. Moreso if we did we could marry here or marry in America, get it done and then apply!

I have no idea but thanks for filling me. It would never be easy eh?!

Might be a few years off but i guess i should be prepared!
Actually, when an immigrant gets married in the U.S. on any Visa other than a K-1 or K-3 Visa, they will be kicked out of the country for 2 years, then after that 2 years is up, the U.S. Citizen can then petition the immigrant for marriage with a K-1 or a K-3 Visa. If you get married in the immigrant's country, a K-3 Visa is required, if you did not get married, a K-1 Visa is required.

This policy was put into effect because there are many people who come to the U.S. as students, workers, etc. and get married to a U.S. Citizen only to leave him/her. Of course, this is seldom and few, but this is one of the reasons why the policy was created. From my understanding, military gets special treatment regarding this policy though. Meaning, if I'm an army person and I get stationed in Korea. I meet a Korean woman, and maybe have a child with her, it's not an issue to get her a green card.

Kind of a double-standard, but, they're defending our freedoms so I won't complain. :)

VCURamFan
04-29-2009, 11:53 PM
Hahaha, it's nice to see Melissa's got such a high opinion of me, blowing my cover & telling everyone I'm easy!

xSub, please understand: I have no problem with differing opinions, as long as their well-researched, well supported & well-argued. As a philosophy major, I deal with so many crap arguments on a daily basis that I tend to call people on the carpet on it when it's probably not that big a deal.

Toss in the fact that I'm writing my Philosophy of Law final on the Constitutional permissibility of Capital Punishment, you kinda struck a nerve!

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 11:58 PM
Hahaha, it's nice to see Melissa's got such a high opinion of me, blowing my cover & telling everyone I'm easy!

xSub, please understand: I have no problem with differing opinions, as long as their well-researched, well supported & well-argued. As a philosophy major, I deal with so many crap arguments on a daily basis that I tend to call people on the carpet on it when it's probably not that big a deal.

Toss in the fact that I'm writing my Philosophy of Law final on the Constitutional permissibility of Capital Punishment, you kinda struck a nerve!
Oh yeah? Well the Rams basketball team sucks! In 38 years, they've only made the NCAA Tournament 8 times. That's an "F" in any class except certain physics courses, lol

http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=VCU_Rams

:tongue0011:

rockdawg21
04-29-2009, 11:59 PM
Seeing it's 6-8 now. I wonder how many Texans voted "yes" like me? :wink:

VCURamFan
04-30-2009, 12:02 AM
Oh yeah? Well the Rams basketball team sucks! In 38 years, they've only made the NCAA Tournament 8 times. That's an "F" in any class except certain physics courses, lol

http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=VCU_Rams

:tongue0011:...



...




...



I hate you.:cry:

(O, & it's 40yrs. We're a paltry 20%!!)

rockdawg21
04-30-2009, 12:03 AM
...



...




...



I hate you.:cry:

(O, & it's 40yrs. We're a paltry 20%!!)
I knew you would have a problem with that. Point made! :happydancing:

Jonlion
04-30-2009, 12:08 AM
Toss in the fact that I'm writing my Philosophy of Law final on the Constitutional permissibility of Capital Punishment, you kinda struck a nerve!


ha ha arguing the toss on this one with you would have been like taking on Dave!

Gonna be tough to duke this out with you on this one! :laugh: :laugh: .

I actually believe thats its correct for heinous cases where we are 99% sure.

If not, then Jail will suffice. Which is probably what it is like at the moment i guess.

H

VCURamFan
04-30-2009, 12:09 AM
I knew you would have a problem with that. Point made! :happydancing:Hahaha. I really do hate you.

I hate you & I hate your *** face!:angry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zOhG0XCOKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De6AkndwRpM

VCURamFan
04-30-2009, 12:12 AM
ha ha arguing the toss on this one with you would have been like taking on Dave!

Gonna be tough to duke this out with you on this one! :laugh: :laugh: .

I actually believe thats its correct for heinous cases where we are 99% sure.

If not, then Jail will suffice. Which is probably what it is like at the moment i guess.

HIt's a really complicated issue and one, to be honest, I really don't care to get into right now. I agree with what you've said for the most part, but like I said, I really don't wanna get into it right now!:laugh:

rockdawg21
04-30-2009, 12:12 AM
Hahaha. I really do hate you.

I hate you & I hate your *** face!:angry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zOhG0XCOKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De6AkndwRpM
I differ, but at least your post is well-researched, well supported & well-argued. :laugh:

Jonlion
04-30-2009, 12:13 AM
Actually Texas left Mexico :tongue0011: .. and since Texas was once it's own sovereign nation, it actually is the only state that can legally leave the union if its people choose.

To be totally honest I have never checked this out .. but growing up there I was taught that in Texas History class.


Ha ha my history is a little shaky on this but i know we offered Texas support in there fight and had cordial relations, then Texas spurned us and joined the union!

Today a lot of Texans consider their state a country, but from 1836 to 1845 it actually was a country called The Republic of Texas and Ge. Sam Houston was its President. The Republic set up an Embassy right here in LondonIt currently is the Berry Brothers wine store on St James Street. A plaque still marks the spot where boisterous Texans and the reserved British struck up an unlikely friendship that continues to this day.
Back at the Embassy, England made a generous offer to defend Texas and help her remain independent forever.But events in America took over, and the first Texas Embassy closed in 1845 when Texas joined the United States.

Thats all from this Website so defo 100% accurate! :wink: :laugh:
http://www.texasembassy.com/aboutus.html

Still, i could not see Texas leave the Union, but then if they relax Visa's then im all for it!

Jonlion
04-30-2009, 12:16 AM
Actually, when an immigrant gets married in the U.S. on any Visa other than a K-1 or K-3 Visa, they will be kicked out of the country for 2 years, then after that 2 years is up, the U.S. Citizen can then petition the immigrant for marriage with a K-1 or a K-3 Visa. If you get married in the immigrant's country, a K-3 Visa is required, if you did not get married, a K-1 Visa is required.

This policy was put into effect because there are many people who come to the U.S. as students, workers, etc. and get married to a U.S. Citizen only to leave him/her. Of course, this is seldom and few, but this is one of the reasons why the policy was created. From my understanding, military gets special treatment regarding this policy though. Meaning, if I'm an army person and I get stationed in Korea. I meet a Korean woman, and maybe have a child with her, it's not an issue to get her a green card.

Kind of a double-standard, but, they're defending our freedoms so I won't complain. :)


Yeah i get why it is there, its just a shame that geniune people get punished for people that abused the system! Guess ill cross this particular bridge when it arises.

Good luck with yours and Gods speed with it!

VCURamFan
04-30-2009, 12:16 AM
I differ, but at least your post is well-researched, well supported & well-argued. :laugh:Waiting for Guffman is hilarious! Everyone really should watch all the Christopher Guest mock-umentaries:


Waiting for Guffman
This is Spinal Tap
Best in Show
A Mighty WindThere's one or two more but I can't remember them right now.

xSubmission
04-30-2009, 02:06 AM
Don't use hippy liberal non-sense to justify inaction.
I find hippies repulsive btw

J.B.
04-30-2009, 02:25 AM
I voted no, and so should everybody else.

Nate, why do you think Texas should leave?

Oh, and to comment on what Boomer said about Texas being able to legally leave the union. My knowledge of Texas history is not the best, but I did find this on Wiki...

Texas originally retained the right to divide into as many as five independent States.[63] After the civil war the option for Texas to secede was revoke and in 1869 the US Supreme Court banned any unilateral acts of secession.[64]

I just love Texas and would hate to ever think of it as NOT a part of America.

Buzzard
04-30-2009, 04:07 AM
Ok now your pissing me off!!! Don't disrespect Ben!! He's one of the most easy people on this forum! :angry:


Ben was actually the first one to show disrespect to xSubmission by calling him boy.

Just saying.

Crisco
04-30-2009, 12:00 PM
Ben was actually the first one to show disrespect to xSubmission by calling him boy.

Just saying.

Your name is Tobey!




In bed taste I know.

Miss Foxy
04-30-2009, 02:27 PM
Ben was actually the first one to show disrespect to xSubmission by calling him boy.

Just saying.
Oh Buzzard my dear Buzzard he goes from a really high to a really low blow thats all im saying. Hopefully we don't have any more name calling or fighting. Thanks for your opinion. :)

Llamafighter
04-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Ben was actually the first one to show disrespect to xSubmission by calling him boy.

Just saying.

:scared0011: ...He is a boy:)

Just saying:wink:

VCURamFan
04-30-2009, 04:46 PM
:scared0011: ...He is a boy:)

Just saying:wink:Yeah, heaven forbid I correctly identify him.

Crisco
04-30-2009, 04:47 PM
Yeah, heaven forbid I correctly identify him.

Your such a racist Ben.

Tyburn
04-30-2009, 04:49 PM
Behave everyone...perhaps it might help if we kept ON TOPIC.

Crisco
04-30-2009, 04:54 PM
Behave everyone...perhaps it might help if we kept ON TOPIC.

Shut up boy!

Crisco
04-30-2009, 04:54 PM
Also why does anyone feel Texas should leave the union? Seems a little silly...

Tyburn
04-30-2009, 04:56 PM
Shut up boy!
Make Me :ninja:

VCURamFan
04-30-2009, 04:58 PM
Your such a racist Ben.Technically it'd be ageism, not racism.

Personally, I think Texas should get ready to secede, but I don't think that the US has reached the point of no return yet.

Crisco
04-30-2009, 04:59 PM
Technically it'd be ageism, not racism.

Personally, I think Texas should get ready to secede, but I don't think that the US has reached the point of no return yet.

I know but racist sounded funnier

J.B.
04-30-2009, 05:30 PM
Also why does anyone feel Texas should leave the union? Seems a little silly...


It is silly. I can't understand why anybody would think it would be a good idea to have Texas leave the union.

Llamafighter
04-30-2009, 05:48 PM
It is silly. I can't understand why anybody would think it would be a good idea to have Texas leave the union.

At least leave Austin for us. If I can't watch Austin City Limits i'll invade Texas!

rockdawg21
04-30-2009, 06:13 PM
At least leave Austin for us. If I can't watch Austin City Limits i'll invade Texas!
Oh, but Dallas isn't a good enough show for you? Who shot RJ? :laugh:

Crisco
04-30-2009, 06:21 PM
Oh, but Dallas isn't a good enough show for you? Who shot RJ? :laugh:

wasn't it JR?

rockdawg21
04-30-2009, 06:35 PM
wasn't it JR?
I knew RJ was wrong, but for some reason, I knew it was close. As you can tell, Dallas isn't good enough for me either :rotfl:

Neezar
05-01-2009, 04:59 PM
We've gotten too dependant on the wrong things,we lost our focus;schools,alternative energies,inner structures,social security,healthcare and the common American. No party can say they had our best interests in their minds and hate to blame Rep,but they've been in office more so than Democrats.


Tell me, please, do you have any children in school? How old are they and what do you think of the 'no child left behind' program?

Please tell me, do you have insurance? Is it Medicaid? What do you know about Medicaid, such as do you think Medicaid provides good insurance coverage?

Also, can you tell me about the social security plan that Bush tried to implement allowing each person to have more control over their own money? Did you know they did a trial test of this plan in Texas? Do you know the outcome of that test? I would sign up in a heartbeat!

Vizion
05-01-2009, 10:06 PM
It is silly. I can't understand why anybody would think it would be a good idea to have Texas leave the union.
Freedom from what is to surely become a communist nation in the next few years. Freedom to have a new Constitution and NEW laws that would hold securely the conservative freedoms. I don't understand why its so "silly". You'd move there and you know it. Altho, I acknowledge it isn't yet feasible at this time.

Tyburn
05-01-2009, 10:14 PM
Freedom to have a new Constitution and NEW laws
you dont need a new constitution or new laws...you need to properly enact the one you already have :)

rockdawg21
05-01-2009, 10:22 PM
you dont need a new constitution or new laws...you need to properly enact the one you already have :)
True, but it seems to be the Liberals are getting the support they need to tear it to pieces.

Vizion
05-01-2009, 10:26 PM
True, but it seems to be the Liberals are getting the support they need to tear it to pieces.
bingo! its been 100 F-ING days and BO has managed to take the U.S. down the wrong path, BIG time. Its only a matter of time before the US will fall/collapse anyways.

atomdanger
05-01-2009, 10:26 PM
Should Texas secede??

I find it interesting to see America is splitting down the middle on every other issue...we are TOO BIG, and our government SUCKS. America, thanks to the liberals and socilaists is fast becoming an unhealthy place to raise children as well.


There are a LOT of problems with the US, and to make a claim that oinly the liberals and socialists are making it unsafe to raise children? wtf.
At least socialists want your children to have free healthcare.


I couldn't care less if Texas tried to leave the union,
they have never done anything for me, if they feel they no longer want to be a part of our country then fine.

atomdanger
05-01-2009, 10:30 PM
Its not that....I am strongly against capital punishment.
Not only does it desensitize people to death but it shows a total lack of respect for human life

We should be desensitized to death, its a natural part of life.
and, most people (Or all???) getting the death penalty have done them some killing.

Human life should be respected, so if you take innocent human life,
you should lose yours.

Where is the problem in that?
I shouldn't have to pay taxes to keep a child/police/mass murderer alive and healthy.

J.B.
05-01-2009, 10:31 PM
Freedom from what is to surely become a communist nation in the next few years. Freedom to have a new Constitution and NEW laws that would hold securely the conservative freedoms. I don't understand why its so "silly". You'd move there and you know it. Altho, I acknowledge it isn't yet feasible at this time.

I am sorry, I just don't see it being that drastic, and honestly to me the thought of succession by any state is not only lunacy, but completely unpatriotic. I am a fairly conservative person, and I think it's fair to say that most of my views fall of the right side of the political spectrum. Sure, I would love to see the current path of our government change direction. That is why we hold elections every four years.

As a conservative, I think it's counter-productive to suggest wild and crazy ideas as a way of making a political statement. All it does is give fuel to the liberals to make us look silly to the common Joes who don't follow politics. MOST people in this country are conservative, and if this nation was in actual danger of becoming a true communist society, then Texas leaving the union would be the least of our problems. Our nation would have a full blown revolution.

Let Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Reed sink their own ship with the American people, because you know they will. Then, the pendulum will swing back the other way, just like it always does.

Vizion
05-01-2009, 10:32 PM
At least socialists want your children to have free healthcare.
Yes, us non-socialists bastards are against free healthcare...take a look around mate, we all have FREE healthcare. No one can turn down an adult here, much less a child. If you think socialism is good, then you must be smoking crack. :wacko:

Vizion
05-01-2009, 10:37 PM
I am sorry, I just don't see it being that drastic, and honestly to me the thought of succession by any state is not only lunacy, but completely unpatriotic. Or, perhaps just a little idea...since America is y'know, no LONGER UNITED an stuff.

As a conservative, I think it's counter-productive to suggest wild and crazy ideas as a way of making a political statement. All it does is give fuel to the liberals to make us look silly to the common Joes who don't follow politics. Who cares eh?

MOST people in this country are conservative, and if this nation was in actual danger of becoming a true communist society, then Texas leaving the union would be the least of our problems. Our nation would have a full blown revolution. Yea, by then they will be too brainwashed tho...get real man. People, well, they believe what they are told e.g, Barak Hussein Obama is actually the flippin president.

Let Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Reed sink their own ship with the American people, because you know they will. Then, the pendulum will swing back the other way, just like it always does.Hope you're right mate, because 4 years is a looooooonnnnnggg time and B.O. and his rogues gallery are aimin' to deliver their own brand of social order and law to this nation.

atomdanger
05-01-2009, 10:40 PM
Yes, us non-socialists bastards are against free healthcare...take a look around mate, we all have FREE healthcare. No one can turn down an adult here, much less a child. If you think socialism is good, then you must be smoking crack. :wacko:

I didn't say socialism was good, but there are good socialist programs.

well, WE don't all have free healthcare, I don't know where you live :laugh:
Sure you can go to the ER, but it will costs you thousands,
kiss your credit goodbye when you can't pay 2K for a visit.

"free" lol

Vizion
05-01-2009, 10:41 PM
I didn't say socialism was good, but there are good socialist programs.

well, WE don't all have free healthcare, I don't know where you live :laugh:
Sure you can go to the ER, but it will costs you thousands,
kiss your credit goodbye when you can't pay 2K for a visit.

"free" lolI meant free access to healthcare:laugh:

what are these good socialist programs?

atomdanger
05-01-2009, 10:47 PM
I meant free access to healthcare:laugh:

what are these good socialist programs?

Define free access to health care?

Universal Healthcare is a good program.
Socialism, by way of contrast, means eliminating the entire system of production for profit.

The United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system.
We, as the United States, should give good, quality health care, at no additional cost to one another.
Taxes should pay for this.
Other countries do it, and it works everywhere, why can't we?

I do not see how a human being with any decent heart or brain can say you want a fellow citizen to go without being able to see a Dr?
That's sick to me.

We cannot solve all the problems in the world,
but I think tackling health care is very possible, and should be done.
A good socialist program, is universal healthcare.

J.B.
05-01-2009, 10:52 PM
Who cares? No longer united? :laugh:

Vizion, you are being way to extreme, and I don't think you have a firm grasp on American politics. Obama will have his way to some degree, and it will effect our nation, but it's a bit premature to start going off the deep end like everybody is brainwashed and it's the end of America.

My prediction is he will either mess up big time and get voted out after 4 years, or he will make it for two terms and start governing more to the center.

Vizion
05-02-2009, 02:26 AM
Who cares? No longer united? :laugh:

Vizion, you are being way to extreme, and I don't think you have a firm grasp on American politics. Obama will have his way to some degree, and it will effect our nation, but it's a bit premature to start going off the deep end like everybody is brainwashed and it's the end of America.

My prediction is he will either mess up big time and get voted out after 4 years, or he will make it for two terms and start governing more to the center.:laugh: Nice try...I may not be born and raised here, but I think I'm pretty astute with American politics. So, we ARE united huh? This, deeply divided country IS united you claim.:Whistle: And, BO will do damage severe enough to cripple us I bet too...just wait and see....like I said JB I hope you're right.

Vizion
05-02-2009, 02:31 AM
Define free access to health care?

Universal Healthcare is a good program.
Socialism, by way of contrast, means eliminating the entire system of production for profit.

The United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system.
We, as the United States, should give good, quality health care, at no additional cost to one another.
Taxes should pay for this.
Other countries do it, and it works everywhere, why can't we?You are kidding right? Universal healthcare is a terrible idea...our taxes will go through the roof, the quality of medical services will be severely diminished and the lack of competition will lead to no new medical discoveries. Look, doctors, they're by and large pretty smart, most of us aren't able to do what they do...what is their incentive to go to school for 10 years to be doctors, or to specialize in a certain area if they are making peanuts.

Every year hundreds of thousands of people from Europe and Canada come to the U.S. because of their weaker health care systems. But by all means, let's have a vote, this is a democracy yes?

Miss Foxy
05-02-2009, 02:32 AM
You are kidding right? Universal healthcare is a terrible idea...our taxes will go through the roof, the quality of medical services will be severely diminished and the lack of competition will lead to no new medical discoveries. Look, doctors, they're by and large pretty smart, most of us aren't able to do what they do...what is their incentive to go to school for 10 years to be doctors, or to specialize in a certain area if they are making peanuts.

Every year hundreds of thousands of people from Europe and Canada come to the U.S. because of their weaker health care systems. But by all means, let's have a vote, this is a democracy yes?
Im with you on this topic! Universal Healthcare would be a huge disaster for our country.. HUGE!!:cry:

Hughes_GOAT
05-02-2009, 02:41 AM
which is one of the underlying reasons why this thread was started in the first place.
and press 1 for English

Miss Foxy
05-02-2009, 02:43 AM
and press 1 for English
Has a MEXICAN pissed you off lately? All your posts are totally tripping me out lately.. :unsure-1:

VCURamFan
05-02-2009, 02:46 AM
Has a MEXICAN pissed you off lately? All your posts are totally tripping me out lately.. :unsure-1:He prolly got turned down for prom by a hot little senorita.:laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
05-02-2009, 02:49 AM
Has a MEXICAN pissed you off lately? All your posts are totally tripping me out lately.. :unsure-1:
nah, he was talking about how liberal we've become to allow a lot of the nonsense we do. and when we live in a time, in America specifically, where there is even an option to press 1 for English.....that's bad!

Hughes_GOAT
05-02-2009, 02:51 AM
He prolly got turned down for prom by a hot little senorita.:laugh:
girls don't turn me down....they ask me out!

Miss Foxy
05-02-2009, 02:51 AM
girls don't turn me down....they ask me out!
Oh snap!! You've been hanging out with Xsub lately? lol..:laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
05-02-2009, 03:02 AM
Oh snap!! You've been hanging out with Xsub lately? lol..:laugh:
ask the ladies here ; )

atomdanger
05-02-2009, 03:23 AM
You are kidding right? Universal healthcare is a terrible idea...our taxes will go through the roof, the quality of medical services will be severely diminished and the lack of competition will lead to no new medical discoveries. Look, doctors, they're by and large pretty smart, most of us aren't able to do what they do...what is their incentive to go to school for 10 years to be doctors, or to specialize in a certain area if they are making peanuts.

Every year hundreds of thousands of people from Europe and Canada come to the U.S. because of their weaker health care systems. But by all means, let's have a vote, this is a democracy yes?

LMAO

Are you joking? Thousands of people come from Canada and Europe because of health care? Come on now. hahahahahaha

The doctors aren't the ones who don't make good money in a universal healthcare system,
the health insurance companies don't,
and hospitals aren't giant money making businesses.

Universal Health care works everywhere in the world,
why wouldn't it here?

Our taxes are higher than other countries with universal health care (not all, but some).
Apparently you have never had to just deal with being sick,
because you couldn't afford to see a Dr.
Or sit for 15 hours in an ER because you're puking,
and get antibiotics and a 1200 dollar ER bill for going there.

Again, people who actually are against everybody getting to see a Dr make me sick.

atomdanger
05-02-2009, 03:26 AM
1. Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.

2. Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

* Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

* Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

* Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

* Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

* Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation

3. Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

* Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

* Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

* Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

* Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

* Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money

4. Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

* Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US

* Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.

* Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)

* Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.

* Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%

* Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

5. Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

* Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurer’s panel to obtain medical benefits

* Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer

* Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind

* Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved

6. Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

* Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.

* Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country

7. Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

* Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.

* Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more

* Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care

* Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).

* Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.

* Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised

* Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

Vizion
05-02-2009, 04:56 AM
think what you will atom, I don't have the time to read all that c&p. I think its a bad idea and besides this thread has gotten way off course!!!:laugh: :laugh:

atomdanger
05-02-2009, 05:03 AM
think what you will atom, I don't have the time to read all that c&p. I think its a bad idea and besides this thread has gotten way off course!!!:laugh: :laugh:

Exactly...

I prove it won't cost more, and disprove many other MYTHS,
and its time to say no response :)

Jonlion
05-02-2009, 07:03 AM
Wow...........

It would seem to me that its a bit of a cop out to actually want to disband the united states after 100 days of Obama Presidentcy. Are things that drasticallly bad?

Furthermore i would of thought that some patriotismmwould still exist that you would want the Union to survive.

If Texas was to go, it undermines the whole system, i think it would be disastrous. Also what message would be sent out to the enemies of the United States, that you are divided? They would be rubbing their hands with glee. To bail out just because times are bad is poor form to me.

Obviously my knowledge of American Politics is less than any of you but even if Obama has 8 years, its my understanding that there could only be so muxch change he could exert upon Texas, like its only Federal things he can change?

From what i can see a 20 year Obama term would not change and brainwash the Texas people into socialist softies! Cmon we know that is never going to happen.

Vizion
05-02-2009, 01:58 PM
Exactly...

I prove it won't cost more, and disprove many other MYTHS,
and its time to say no response :)
Haha - no response...ha! Start another thread on thsi subject and let's go, but Monday, not today, I have a life to live this weekend, getting into a typingfrenzy will steal away my freetime. Your article so far has me illconvinced

you on???:punch: :laugh:

rockdawg21
05-02-2009, 03:55 PM
Back to the subject at hand. I voted yes. We should reinstitute the United States of America and leave the Ununited States of Obama. :D

J.B.
05-02-2009, 07:49 PM
:laugh: Nice try...I may not be born and raised here, but I think I'm pretty astute with American politics. So, we ARE united huh? This, deeply divided country IS united you claim.:Whistle: And, BO will do damage severe enough to cripple us I bet too...just wait and see....like I said JB I hope you're right.

Yes Vizion, our country is still united, even in these tough times. I was not even alluding to the fact that you are from the UK, if you really think that this President is the "end of America" then you are not as astute with American politics as you may think.

I'm sorry to say it, but it's that over the top mentality that is going to drive the average people away from conservatives and republicans around election time. You say, "who cares eh?", but that proves you only care about yourself and your view of how this nation should be. Rather than worrying about running away from the problems and starting a "new country" in Texas, which ain't gonna happen anyway, why not worry about fixing the country we already have? Spread the word, and encourage people to vote.

I spent all of last year preaching why we should NOT elect Obama, but the will of the media and the people had it's way. Bush was a VERY unpopular president, and he made it hard to get a conservative elected last time around. As long as conservatives stay focused on important matters and keep calling Obama and Congress to task on his decisions, we will see another shift in power in 4 years, be it in the Congress or the Presidency, or both.

Jonlion
05-03-2009, 05:15 PM
Yes Vizion, our country is still united, even in these tough times. I was not even alluding to the fact that you are from the UK, if you really think that this President is the "end of America" then you are not as astute with American politics as you may think.

I'm sorry to say it, but it's that over the top mentality that is going to drive the average people away from conservatives and republicans around election time. You say, "who cares eh?", but that proves you only care about yourself and your view of how this nation should be. Rather than worrying about running away from the problems and starting a "new country" in Texas, which ain't gonna happen anyway, why not worry about fixing the country we already have? Spread the word, and encourage people to vote.

I spent all of last year preaching why we should NOT elect Obama, but the will of the media and the people had it's way. Bush was a VERY unpopular president, and he made it hard to get a conservative elected last time around. As long as conservatives stay focused on important matters and keep calling Obama and Congress to task on his decisions, we will see another shift in power in 4 years, be it in the Congress or the Presidency, or both.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Again a post I agree with. Well said!

To run from the problems is a cop out.

Even Liberals had more balls than you Vizion, least they hung about to oust the President for one they wanted!

ha ha :wink:

Tyburn
05-03-2009, 05:20 PM
we will see another shift in power in 4 years, be it in the Congress or the Presidency, or both.
It'll probably be both :ninja:

Obama is already doing...well...nothing where he should be doing something, and something where he should be doing nothing...and not much else :laugh:

He's black...so get over it already...the novelty is fast wearing off...finally, he's being seen as simply another human being...shortly, he'll be seen as simply another politician...after that, not even the Liberals will want him :rolleyes:

J.B.
05-03-2009, 07:58 PM
He's black...so get over it already...

I do hope you are speaking to the general uneducated goon, and not myself, when you said this. :huh:

Other than that, I agree with everything you said. :)

Tyburn
05-03-2009, 09:27 PM
I do hope you are speaking to the general uneducated goon, and not myself, when you said this. :huh:

Other than that, I agree with everything you said. :)
Yes...I was speaking Generically....I knew you didnt care what colour he was...but I think some people are guilty of positive racism, and might only have ellected him because of his colour....I think they are now seeing that colour has nothing to do with political prowess :laugh:

J.B.
05-03-2009, 09:38 PM
Yes...I was speaking Generically....I knew you didnt care what colour he was...but I think some people are guilty of positive racism, and might only have ellected him because of his colour....I think they are now seeing that colour has nothing to do with political prowess :laugh:

I agree completely, and the mystique is definitely starting to wear off.

Neezar
05-04-2009, 12:23 AM
Atom, where did you get this crap? This is a lot of different stats that relate to different areas all twisted to fit this agenda. Most of these statements are so broad ranged that they could never be proven nor disproven. And some of these statements contradict each other while others don't even make a direct point. Great tactics though.

1. Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.

2. Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

* Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

* Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

* Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

* Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

* Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation

3. Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

* Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

* Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

* Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

* Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

* Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money

4. Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

* Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US

* Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.

* Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)

* Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.

* Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%

* Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

5. Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

* Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurer’s panel to obtain medical benefits

* Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer

* Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind

* Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved

6. Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

* Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.

* Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country

7. Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

* Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.

* Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more

* Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care

* Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).

* Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.

* Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised

* Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

Neezar
05-04-2009, 12:30 AM
Haha - no response...ha! Start another thread on thsi subject and let's go, but Monday, not today, I have a life to live this weekend, getting into a typingfrenzy will steal away my freetime. Your article so far has me illconvinced

you on???:punch: :laugh:

I'm in! I can disprove most of that crap he posted or at the very least show how stupid some of sounds when you try to apply it to reality.

Neezar
05-04-2009, 01:03 AM
Oh yeah, TX should stay and suffer with us. :laugh:

Buzzard
05-04-2009, 07:27 AM
I'm in! I can disprove most of that crap he posted or at the very least show how stupid some of sounds when you try to apply it to reality.


I'd be interested in seeing what you could disprove and where you got your information from.

Josh
05-04-2009, 08:47 PM
I voted I don't know. I honestly believe this country is headed towards a civil war. Not now but I think the groundwork has been laid. If Texans as a group want to succeed I think they should be able to unhindered by the US Government. It would be bad for our country though.