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MattHughesRocks
01-28-2009, 05:12 AM
Man Kills His Wife and 5 Children

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By REBECCA CATHCART and RANDAL C. ARCHIBOLD
Published: January 27, 2009

LOS ANGELES — A man shot and killed his wife and five young children before taking his own life Tuesday, apparently out of despair after the couple lost their jobs at a hospital, the police and city officials said.

Officers responding to 911 calls placed by the man, Ervin A. Lupoe, and by a television station to which Mr. Lupoe had sent a fax around 8:30 a.m., found seven bodies in a house in Wilmington, a working-class neighborhood near the Port of Los Angeles.

A police spokesman said the bodies were identified as Mr. Lupoe; his wife, Ana; their 8-year-old daughter and two sets of twins (5-year-old girls and 2-year-old boys).

Mr. Lupoe had telephoned and sent a fax to KABC-TV that indicated “he was despondent over a job situation and he saw no reasonable way out,” said Lt. John Romero, a police spokesman.

The two-page, typewritten letter made clear he was going to kill his family and himself. The station quickly called 911 to report the letter and then posted it on the station Web site after the bodies were discovered.

The letter said Mr. Lupoe and his wife had worked as medical technicians at a Kaiser Permanente hospital in West Los Angeles, but recently lost their jobs after a dispute with an administrator.

The administrator, it said, had asked them on an unspecified day why they had come to work, and then added, “You should have blown your brains out.”

Two days after the confrontation, the letter said, the Lupoes lost their jobs and began planning their deaths and those of their children.

“Why leave the children to a stranger?” Mr. Lupoe said his wife had asked. “So, here we are,” he wrote.

Kaiser Permanente officials issued a statement confirming the couple had worked at their hospital in West Los Angeles but would not say when they had lost their jobs or provide other details. “We are deeply saddened to hear of the deaths of the Lupoe family,” the statement said.

Although the police are treating the case as a murder-suicide, Deputy Chief Kenneth Garner said the police were still sorting through a discrepancy.

Contrary to his fax and reported call to the television station, the man told a 911 operator he had arrived home and found his family dead, Deputy Chief Garner said. But investigators found a revolver next to Mr. Lupoe’s body, the only weapon in the home, he said.

The police said they found the bodies of the three daughters next to their father in a front bedroom upstairs. The boys were with their mother in a back bedroom on the same floor.

“A man who recently lost his job allowed the despair to put him over the edge,” said Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who held a news conference outside the house. “Unfortunately, this has been an all-too-common story in the last few months. But that does not and should not lead people to resort to desperate measures.”

A man killed his ex-wife, her parents and friends at a Christmas party in West Covina last month after losing his job. In October, a 45-year-old father of three shot and killed his wife and children in their Porter Ranch home after describing financial stress in a suicide note.

Mayor Villaraigosa urged Los Angeles residents experiencing financial stress to talk to friends and neighbors and seek counseling “to get back on their feet and keep their families afloat.”

Cecilia Yvar, 68, whose grandson often played with the Lupoes’ 5-year-old twins, said the family moved to the neighborhood four years ago. The Lupoes added a second story to their home last year, Ms. Yvar said, and landscapingto their backyard.

“Maybe too much money, too much stress,” she said while wiping away tears.

Ms. Yvar said the couple kept to themselves, but greeted their neighbors warmly each day. On Sunday, she said, they appeared unhappy as they walked together outside.

Yolanda and Oscar Lopez, who have lived in the area three months, said they had seen the Lupoes in the neighborhood.

“There’s so much pressure from the economy and people out of work and stuff,” Mr. Lopez, 28, said. “But adults, they know there are other options. You don’t have to do this.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/us/28family.html?hp

ERStettin
01-28-2009, 05:18 AM
Wow, what a rotten outlook on life.

Llamafighter
01-28-2009, 12:33 PM
Saw this on the news thsi morning. I cannopt imagine being at a place where that is the only forseeable way out. Why not leave the kids who had full lives ahead of them. Devastating...

Crisco
01-28-2009, 03:24 PM
Pure scum truly..


May god forgive you

Llamafighter
01-28-2009, 03:30 PM
Pure scum truly..


May god forgive you

Wow if you didn't like my post just tell me;)

NateR
01-28-2009, 06:42 PM
A part of me wants to blame this on President Obama's economic fear-mongering. Telling everyone that we're in dire straits, we're entering another Great Depression, and it's only going to get worse from here. What happened to all that optimism before the election?

So, now all these spoiled brats who have never had to do without anything their whole life are panicking at the first sign of suffering and taking the coward's way out.

Llamafighter
01-28-2009, 06:54 PM
A part of me wants to blame this on President Obama's economic fear-mongering. Telling everyone that we're in dire straits, we're entering another Great Depression, and it's only going to get worse from here. What happened to all that optimism before the election?

So, now all these spoiled brats who have never had to do without anything their whole life are panicking at the first sign of suffering and taking the coward's way out.

I don't think it's "fear mongering" I think it's saying "listen, we're going to get through this but it's going to take some time and work". We have to be realistic about the state of the economy. If these wackos can't handle that then they should blow eachother's brains out and let the kids grow up in a household of rational people and have a future.

Of course this is just the same thing you accused Liberal of doing to the Bush administration, so I guess it's fair.

NateR
01-28-2009, 07:03 PM
Of course this is just the same thing you accused Liberal of doing to the Bush administration, so I guess it's fair.

Exactly, when Bush talked about the realities of terrorism in the world, he was accused of fear-mongering. When Obama talks about the "realities" of our economic situation, he's being "transparent" with the American people. That's a blatant double-standard. Especially since Obama and Biden are deliberately overstating the problem. This is not the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, it's the worst economic crisis since Jimmy Carter.

If anything President Bush understated just how dangerous the world's terrorists are and trying to protect the American people from the brutal realities of Muslim Extremism might have hurt his case more than helped it.

Llamafighter
01-28-2009, 07:10 PM
Exactly, when Bush talked about the realities of terrorism in the world, he was accused of fear-mongering. When Obama talks about the "realities" of our economic situation, he's being "transparent" with the American people. That's a blatant double-standard. Especially since Obama and Biden are deliberately overstating the problem. This is not the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, it's the worst economic crisis since Jimmy Carter.

If anything President Bush understated just how dangerous the world's terrorists are and trying to protect the American people from the brutal realities of Muslim Extremism might have hurt his case more than helped it.

Good points.
We know that mistakes will always be made by our leaders.
I wouldn't blame these wacko parents' decision making abilities on a man who's only been in office for a week. Let's blame whoever's administration they were raised under;)

NateR
01-28-2009, 07:16 PM
Good points.
We know that mistakes will always be made by our leaders.
I wouldn't blame these wacko parents' decision making abilities on a man who's only been in office for a week. Let's blame whoever's administration they were raised under;)

Or we could just blame it on the liberal media. They destroyed President Bush's character and got simple minded-fools to believe that he was a bad President, and they got Obama elected, even though he's not qualified for the job he holds now.

Llamafighter
01-28-2009, 07:30 PM
Or we could just blame it on the liberal media. They destroyed President Bush's character and got simple minded-fools to believe that he was a bad President, and they got Obama elected, even though he's not qualified for the job he holds now.

The beauty of this country is that you can criticize him, and those who voted for him as much as you like. I hope you'll recognize his successes in office as well, and pray for him to make the right decisions. Orrr you can stoop to the level of those you admonish. That's your choice (as you know).

NateR
01-28-2009, 07:35 PM
The beauty of this country is that you can criticize him, and those who voted for him as much as you like. I hope you'll recognize his successes in office as well, and pray for him to make the right decisions. Orrr you can stoop to the level of those you admonish. That's your choice (as you know).

No stooping here, just stating the facts. The guy was unqualified for office and had no record of doing anything memorable during his time in the Senate, aside from running for President.

You can't argue that, just like you can't argue that Bush and Cheney have kept this country safe from terrorism for 7 years and eliminated three brutal dictators from Iraq.

rearnakedchoke
01-28-2009, 07:46 PM
No stooping here, just stating the facts. The guy was unqualified for office and had no record of doing anything memorable during his time in the Senate, aside from running for President.

You can't argue that, just like you can't argue that Bush and Cheney have kept this country safe from terrorism for 7 years and eliminated three brutal dictators from Iraq.


so it is too early to praise obama for doing anything good, but a guy who kills his family is fair-game to blame on him? both sides had stated that the economy was in trouble so it is not like he was saying dire straits and mccain was saying everything is fine ... and why take BHO's word for it? look how the world's economy is crumbling, even if BHO said nothing, the proof is in the pudding ...

oh ya, iraq, what about the rest of the countries that pose a threat?

Llamafighter
01-28-2009, 08:00 PM
No stooping here, just stating the facts. The guy was unqualified for office and had no record of doing anything memorable during his time in the Senate, aside from running for President.

You can't argue that, just like you can't argue that Bush and Cheney have kept this country safe from terrorism for 7 years and eliminated three brutal dictators from Iraq.

Yeah congrats to them on 7 years of no terrorists attacking U.S. citizens.


Oh, wait there is the matter of all those U.S. citizens being killed by terrorists in Iraq and Afganistan. To their families here at home it's not different than had they been killed by terrorists down the street.

How long have those brutal dictators been dead? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we aren't better off without those 3. I think that if we would have focused on Osama, then we could have eliminated him before moving into Iraq. IMO

Nate, I respect your opinions (whether you like it or not), I just don't agree completely with you. Unfortunately I'm not very organized in putting my argument together.0

NateR
01-28-2009, 08:27 PM
so it is too early to praise obama for doing anything good, but a guy who kills his family is fair-game to blame on him?

So exactly what good has Obama done? I watch the news everyday and I'm still seeing nothing but a lot of talk and promises. Promises are easy to make, but keeping them is a totally different matter. I understand these things take time and I'm not trying to be critical, but I'm just sick of people talking about Obama like he pisses rays of golden sunshine.

It's still yet to be determined whether President Obama is an idealogue or a pragmatist. For sake of the United States, I hope he is a pragmatist; but if he's just an ideologue, then he's not going to do any good for anybody.

rockdawg21
01-28-2009, 08:59 PM
It's still yet to be determined whether President Obama is an idealogue or a pragmatist. For sake of the United States, I hope he is a pragmatist; but if he's just an ideologue, then he's not going to do any good for anybody.
Of course he is...environmentalists, liberal media, socialists, and other forms of hippies.

Tyburn
01-28-2009, 09:59 PM
A part of me wants to blame this on President Obama's economic fear-mongering. Telling everyone that we're in dire straits, we're entering another Great Depression, and it's only going to get worse from here. What happened to all that optimism before the election?

So, now all these spoiled brats who have never had to do without anything their whole life are panicking at the first sign of suffering and taking the coward's way out.
Part of me wonders why this happens in America, when I've yet to hear of any major businesses going bankrupt. Like Obama has done anything in the past week that could possibly be the cause of all this :laugh:

Look at whats happened in England, in the past three months Woolworths has fallen, Zavvy has fallen, Barrats has fallen, Mothercare has fallen, Marks and Sparks have laid people off....there are somewhere in the region of 50K unemployed in those businesses alone...how many of them have killed their family and themselves because of it?


It may not be a "Great Depression" for YOU :rolleyes:

Tyburn
01-28-2009, 10:02 PM
Or we could just blame it on the liberal media. They destroyed President Bush's character and got simple minded-fools to believe that he was a bad President, and they got Obama elected, even though he's not qualified for the job he holds now.
Or we could blame it on the fact that Republicans arent working hard enough to put there story across...if all the news is "liberal" and "lies" Where are the Republican outlets???

He IS qualified, because the public voted him there...thats called Democracy :blink:

Tyburn
01-28-2009, 10:06 PM
So exactly what good has Obama done? I watch the news everyday and I'm still seeing nothing but a lot of talk and promises. Promises are easy to make, but keeping them is a totally different matter. I understand these things take time and I'm not trying to be critical, but I'm just sick of people talking about Obama like he pisses rays of golden sunshine.

It's still yet to be determined whether President Obama is an idealogue or a pragmatist. For sake of the United States, I hope he is a pragmatist; but if he's just an ideologue, then he's not going to do any good for anybody.
Yeah...but I'm sick of you NOT giving him a chance. You want to blame him for some suicidal nutjob that offed his family coz he lost his job, on the fact Obama has made a few speeches saying that its hard times???????

I'll tell you what he's done in his first week. He's closing down Guantanamo, in accordance with both International Law and the Law of The United States...he's also appointed new Envoys to the Middle-east, and he's opened DIRECT talks with Iran....and He's frozen the pay of the Congress ministers until he can irradicate sleaze, and to bring them inline with the rest of the workers in this world.

Sounds like he's done good so far. :)

Crisco
01-28-2009, 10:11 PM
Yea If anything I just hope he cuts the pork off.

NateR
01-28-2009, 10:11 PM
Yeah...but I'm sick of you NOT giving him a chance. You want to blame him for some suicidal nutjob that offed his family coz he lost his job, on the fact Obama has made a few speeches saying that its hard times???????

I'll tell you what he's done in his first week. He's closing down Guantanamo, in accordance with both International Law and the Law of The United States...he's also appointed new Envoys to the Middle-east, and he's opened DIRECT talks with Iran....and He's frozen the pay of the Congress ministers until he can irradicate sleaze, and to bring them inline with the rest of the workers in this world.

Sounds like he's done good so far. :)

Again, all promises and talk for right now, not actual accomplishments. There's a difference.

Tyburn
01-28-2009, 10:21 PM
Again, all promises and talk for right now, not actual accomplishments. There's a difference.
Erm...opening talks with Iran...thats an accomplishment not managed by several of his predeccessors..Historically I dont think its happened since 1970s...Bush wanted to...but didnt get very far.

Erm...on the Guantanamo thing...people are already moving on this...England went mad at some European Countries saying that they should have some space...and in the United States there has been talk about...Alcatraz being a suitable site for a prison specifically for Guantanamo lifers...THATS not just talk...thats pretty much more then the amount of action you would expect in a week

and how is Appointing New Envoys all talk and no action? they've already started, we know this because Tony Blair is still out there, and now has to work with/under them...He's spoken about that already.

Its only the first week...what do you expect...Miracles :laugh:

Crisco
01-28-2009, 10:23 PM
Erm...opening talks with Iran...thats an accomplishment not managed by several of his predeccessors..Historically I dont think its happened since 1970s...Bush wanted to...but didnt get very far.

Erm...on the Guantanamo thing...people are already moving on this...England went mad at some European Countries saying that they should have some space...and in the United States there has been talk about...Alcatraz being a suitable site for a prison specifically for Guantanamo lifers...THATS not just talk...thats pretty much more then the amount of action you would expect in a week

and how is Appointing New Envoys all talk and no action? they've already started, we know this because Tony Blair is still out there, and now has to work with/under them...He's spoken about that already.

Its only the first week...what do you expect...Miracles :laugh:

He is the Messiah after all... =PPP

JK. I hope god blesses Obama and he leads us back to prosperity.

NateR
01-28-2009, 10:30 PM
Erm...opening talks with Iran...thats an accomplishment not managed by several of his predeccessors..Historically I dont think its happened since 1970s...Bush wanted to...but didnt get very far.

Erm...on the Guantanamo thing...people are already moving on this...England went mad at some European Countries saying that they should have some space...and in the United States there has been talk about...Alcatraz being a suitable site for a prison specifically for Guantanamo lifers...THATS not just talk...thats pretty much more then the amount of action you would expect in a week

and how is Appointing New Envoys all talk and no action? they've already started, we know this because Tony Blair is still out there, and now has to work with/under them...He's spoken about that already.

Its only the first week...what do you expect...Miracles :laugh:

That's my point, I don't expect miracles. I just wish the press would stop singing his praises every time he draws a breath.

rearnakedchoke
01-28-2009, 10:35 PM
That's my point, I don't expect miracles. I just wish the press would stop singing his praises every time he draws a breath.

that's fine, but then the media is to blame not the POTUS ...

NateR
01-28-2009, 10:47 PM
that's fine, but then the media is to blame not the POTUS ...

Believe it or not, that's the point I've been trying to make all along. The media simply doesn't give Republicans a fair shake when it comes to fair coverage. They ripped Sarah Palin apart by reporting rumors and outright lies as fact. However, when it was reported that Caroline Kennedy was going to be offered Hilary Clinton's Senate seat, the media gave her a pass even though she had no real experience in elected office.

The media has always had a liberal bias, I understand that, but it has never been as disgustingly blatant as it was during the last Presidential election.

Kix
01-28-2009, 11:02 PM
My heart weeps for these children. Hope to God they are at peace.

Tyburn
01-29-2009, 12:59 AM
That's my point, I don't expect miracles. I just wish the press would stop singing his praises every time he draws a breath.
:laugh:

What does the republican press say about him....:huh:

NateR
01-29-2009, 02:07 AM
:laugh:

What does the republican press say about him....:huh:

Well, the "conservative press" is kind of outnumbered here. We only have Fox News as far as television coverage and for the most part, they are cautiously optimistic about Obama's presidency but more than a little skeptical about his economic plan. Basically because history has proven that trying to borrow and spend your way out of a recession never works and runs the risk of collapsing the nation's entire economy.

Spiritwalker
01-29-2009, 02:31 AM
Or we could blame it on the fact that Republicans arent working hard enough to put there story across...if all the news is "liberal" and "lies" Where are the Republican outlets???

He IS qualified, because the public voted him there...thats called Democracy :blink:


Yeah.. he is qualified.. cause of what he said.. his promises.. his marketing machine...

just cause he won a popularity contest doesn't mean he is qualified..

The American people made a serious mistake.. a mistake that we will be paying for, for years to come.

Neezar
01-29-2009, 04:32 AM
Erm...opening talks with Iran...thats an accomplishment not managed by several of his predeccessors..Historically I dont think its happened since 1970s...Bush wanted to...but didnt get very far.

Well, he did open talks and guess how that went? Iran said 'bugger off, we ain't gonna quit making nuclear weapons and you can't make us.'

Yeah, Obama. :applause:



Erm...on the Guantanamo thing...people are already moving on this...England went mad at some European Countries saying that they should have some space...and in the United States there has been talk about...Alcatraz being a suitable site for a prison specifically for Guantanamo lifers...THATS not just talk...thats pretty much more then the amount of action you would expect in a week


Bush had already started this. Obama only put a time limit on it. So, it is yet to be seen if he can accomplish this or not. Although Obama don't mind taking the credit.

Obama urged Muslims to judge him by his actions, pointing to the decision to close the Guantanamo Bay detention center, where detainees in the U.S. war on terror are held.


and how is Appointing New Envoys all talk and no action? they've already started, we know this because Tony Blair is still out there, and now has to work with/under them...He's spoken about that already.

Its only the first week...what do you expect...Miracles :laugh:


Well, I did kinda expect miracles. :laugh:

NateR
01-29-2009, 04:52 AM
Yeah.. he is qualified.. cause of what he said.. his promises.. his marketing machine...

just cause he won a popularity contest doesn't mean he is qualified..

The American people made a serious mistake.. a mistake that we will be paying for, for years to come.

QFT

Neezar
01-29-2009, 04:56 AM
Here is what Obama said about Iran before.......



March 3, 2007

BY DAVE NEWBART (dnewbart@suntimes.com) Staff Reporter


Sen. Barack Obama said Friday the use of military force should not be taken off the table when dealing with Iran, which he called "a threat to all of us."





While he was being attacked in Washington, Obama was in friendly territory in Chicago as he appeared at a forum attended by 800 members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, an influential pro-Israel lobby. He received a standing ovation from the crowd and a hug from one of the group's leaders.


Obama said global leaders must do whatever it takes to stop Iran from enriching uranium and acquiring nuclear weapons. He called Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad "reckless, irresponsible and inattentive" to the day-to-day needs of the Iranian people.

The Iranian "regime is a threat to all of us," Obama said. While Obama wouldn't rule out force, he said the United States should engage in "aggressive diplomacy combined with tough sanctions" to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear threat.




2009
The Bush administration had pushed for new U.N. sanctions on Iran for failing to suspend a uranium enrichment program.
The United States and Western powers suspect Iran is trying to produce nuclear arms. Iran says its plans are peaceful.





(AGI) - Teheran, 28 Jan. - Despite openings announced by US president Barack Obama, Iran will not halt its nuclear programme. Sources within the presidency made the announcement.

During an interview in Teheran's government offices, Ahmadinejad's counsellor Aliakbar Javanfekr stated that Iran has no intention of stopping its nuclear activities, which are "peaceful and controlled by IAEA". To those citing the UN resolution asking for the suspension of uranium enriching activities, Javanfekr replied that "we are past that stage. We rejected the resolutions, which were developed under US pressure. We work in the context of international laws". He also defined sanctions imposed on Iran as "ineffective".


Man! Does anyone listen to the UN anymore? :unsure-1:





.

Tyburn
01-29-2009, 01:49 PM
Well, the "conservative press" is kind of outnumbered here. We only have Fox News as far as television coverage and for the most part, they are cautiously optimistic about Obama's presidency but more than a little skeptical about his economic plan. Basically because history has proven that trying to borrow and spend your way out of a recession never works and runs the risk of collapsing the nation's entire economy.
Yes...I dont like his plans for the Economy, because I think he's just going to flood the market with fresh money and reduce the dollars worth even more...then hyper inflation...that kinda thing hit Europe in the Great Depression...if that happened in the United States it would bugger up the entire world Economy for maybe a generation so I was hearing by someone whose a stockmarket guy in London

There is no need to be outnumbered...if Republicans seriously feel there are no conservative outletts for news...they should create some. Its no good complaining that the news is always liberal, when no Republicans are actually offering an ulternative channel...See Liberals tend to shout...if you want your voice to be heard...you really got to shout aswell IMHO :frantics:

Tyburn
01-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Yeah.. he is qualified.. cause of what he said.. his promises.. his marketing machine...

just cause he won a popularity contest doesn't mean he is qualified..

The American people made a serious mistake.. a mistake that we will be paying for, for years to come.
Thats alright...because your consitution says the American people are always right.

You speak about his "marketing machine" as if its easy to do. Could you market yourself well enough with no qualifications to get ellected to the Oval Office :huh:

I dont think some people realize that Obama utilized the Internet, and that takes time and takes effort. It may be an illusion, but it takes a lot of effort to create that illusion...if it were easy then thousands of people like Obama would already have been ellected.

IF he can fool the public enough to be ellected, through clever marketting and skillful planning....perhaps he can do similar to shut your enemies down? Have you realized that just today by doing NOTHING, Obama had a minor Victory against Russia?

Obama has said he is going to continue with Starwars...but because he's offered talks with Iran...Well all of a sudden, the Russians are removing the Missiles THEY were deploying near the Eastern Boundary...in the hopes that Obama will talk TO THEM ASWELL

Now...I'm sorry you dont see that as progress...but knowing how to manipluate people..is a skill, and can be useful if the manipulator is on yourside. He might not be Qualified in terms of record...but if he's able to play the deplomat so well he can bring progress...that will profit America and slow down Terrorism...well..Isnt that a good thing...and shouldnt you be glad he's YOUR president...and NOT the Russian or Irainian Premier?

NateR
01-29-2009, 05:47 PM
Thats alright...because your consitution says the American people are always right.


Actually, that's not true. The Founding Fathers knew that, historically, democracies are always doomed to fail, which is why they made sure that America was NOT a democracy. We are a republic.

The Presidency isn't decided by popular vote, it's decided by the Electoral College. The popular vote is simply used as a guide for the Electoral College to go by.

Tyburn
01-29-2009, 05:58 PM
Actually, that's not true. The Founding Fathers knew that, historically, democracies are always doomed to fail, which is why they made sure that America was NOT a democracy. We are a republic.

The Presidency isn't decided by popular vote, it's decided by the Electoral College. The popular vote is simply used as a guide for the Electoral College to go by.
Well in that case you just shot your self in the foot didnt you Nathan.

I claimed he won by popularity, in which case you can blame the foolish citizens...but if your saying the Electoral College voted him (people you vote, to vote for you because they are supposed to know best) then...he really MUST be qualified :blink:

Btw...I thought that actually in the United States they have both systems in opporation at the same time, and in some states the Electoral College vote is biased because you have to be able to vote for all choices, and they arent always even are they? or they exclude some areas or something.

Funny how your government uses the word "Democrasy" rather then "Republic" they dont spread Republics around, they build Democrasy...and yet, they arent completely democratic themselves are they (I dont mean in the way of the Democratic party there....very confusing :wacko: )

NateR
01-29-2009, 06:16 PM
Well in that case you just shot your self in the foot didnt you Nathan.

I claimed he won by popularity, in which case you can blame the foolish citizens...but if your saying the Electoral College voted him (people you vote, to vote for you because they are supposed to know best) then...he really MUST be qualified :blink:

That's some bizarre logic you got going there, Dave. In this case, I believe the system either broke down or has been corrupted.

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 12:30 AM
That's some bizarre logic you got going there, Dave. In this case, I believe the system either broke down or has been corrupted.
:laugh:

Truth be told...I dont quite understand how the Electoral College runs in its entireity

We just tick the box for who we want to win In England...its that simple :unsure-1:

:laugh:

Do you know I found a fascinating thing about about Nazi Germany today. Did you know that the Resistance had decided on a new Government that they were going to put into place after the Wolfslair bomb killed Hitler.

Did you know it included members from many political parties. The Senior Military people who was Nazi, some Religious Catholic group, A centralist party...heck the moment Hitler died they were ready to recruit as the last person on their cabinate Mr Speer who was SS!

The only party they completely ignored...was the Commies :laugh:

lyndsey823
01-30-2009, 02:06 AM
this is a disgusting story. coward.

however, it especially creeps me out because my boyfriend is also named Ervin and he lost his job in early January for getting in an argument with an administrator at the hospital we both work at here in town. as long as i have my job, i guess i am safe!!!

Josh
01-30-2009, 02:51 AM
I honestly can't believe the things people do. I can't even think of a fitting punishment for murdering ones child. Death is not good enough. I guess I just have to remember that vengence is the Lord's.

Twinsmama
01-30-2009, 05:18 PM
I can not believe that someone thought that killing their children was okay. If they lost their jobs they should both get unemployement and would probably qualify for food stamps or something. there is always some way to make things work. Times are tough for everyone with or without a job right now. I do not have money to buy my kids a toy everytime we go to town. We don't eat out. But we have each other. Family is the most important thing. When I 'm stressing I just look at my kids who are so innocent and they laugh no matter what.

On another note do you guys think someone who commits suicide will go to heaven? I'm not very religious but I do not think that suicide will take you to heaven. If this man and/or woman committed suicide I don't think they will be with their children in heaven.

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 05:22 PM
On another note do you guys think someone who commits suicide will go to heaven? I'm not very religious but I do not think that suicide will take you to heaven. If this man and/or woman committed suicide I don't think they will be with their children in heaven.

:sad: I dont know, is the honnest answer, I dont think so, if I'm being truthful, but I hope that GOD can forgive Suicide, particularly if it involves Christians. :cry:

NateR
01-30-2009, 05:31 PM
On another note do you guys think someone who commits suicide will go to heaven? I'm not very religious but I do not think that suicide will take you to heaven. If this man and/or woman committed suicide I don't think they will be with their children in heaven.

There's no biblical basis for saying that someone who commits suicide will not go to Heaven. Salvation doesn't work that way. Once you get saved, you are forgiven of all sins past, present, and future. Suicide is essentially murder of oneself and GOD forgives murderers. Moses committed murder before GOD chose him to lead Israel out of Egypt. David would be considered a mass-murderer by our standards today and GOD referred to him as "a man after My own heart."

Now, I doubt that the Holy Spirit would allow a true, born-again Christian to commit suicide. So, it could almost be said that someone who is successful in committing suicide was probably never a true Christian to begin with; but that's just my opinion.

MattHughesRocks
01-30-2009, 05:43 PM
I think youre forgetting about the mentally ill.They can be Christians and be too sick to stop themselves.


There's no biblical basis for saying that someone who commits suicide will not go to Heaven. Salvation doesn't work that way. Once you get saved, you are forgiven of all sins past, present, and future. Suicide is essentially murder of oneself and GOD forgives murderers. Moses committed murder before GOD chose him to lead Israel out of Egypt. David would be considered a mass-murderer by our standards today and GOD referred to him as "a man after My own heart."

Now, I doubt that the Holy Spirit would allow a true, born-again Christian to commit suicide. So, it could almost be said that someone who is successful in committing suicide was probably never a true Christian to begin with; but that's just my opinion.

NateR
01-30-2009, 05:52 PM
I think youre forgetting about the mentally ill.They can be Christians and be too sick to stop themselves.

True, then you also have to take into account the instances where suicide is considered heroic. For instance, a soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save the lives of his buddies.

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 06:08 PM
True, then you also have to take into account the instances where suicide is considered heroic. For instance, a soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save the lives of his buddies.
I wouldnt class that as Suicide.

Suicide is when you kill yourself, not when you are killed by something involving an outside factor you cant help. Essentially, the Soldier does not kill himself, the Enemy kills him. Thats the difference between Sacrifice and Suicide.

There is the unforgivable sin of Blasphemy against the Spirit which is not well defined. I just wonder if thats Sucide...what can be worse then ending a life given you as a gift? Its more then Murder IMHO.

NateR
01-30-2009, 06:18 PM
I wouldnt class that as Suicide.

Suicide is when you kill yourself, not when you are killed by something involving an outside factor you cant help. Essentially, the Soldier does not kill himself, the Enemy kills him. Thats the difference between Sacrifice and Suicide.

There is the unforgivable sin of Blasphemy against the Spirit which is not well defined. I just wonder if thats Sucide...what can be worse then ending a life given you as a gift? Its more then Murder IMHO.

The Bible is pretty clear about what the unpardonable sin is and it's not suicide. It's when someone feels the leading and urging of the Holy Spirit in their life and claims that it is something evil, that's the unpardonable sin. Once they have reached that point, where they believe the Holy Spirit is evil, then it's impossible for them to get saved.

The unpardonable sin is not GOD's unwillingness to forgive, because there is no sin that GOD won't forgive, it's the unwillingness of an individual to accept forgiveness.

Basically, if you are a born-again Christian, then you can't commit the unpardonable sin.

rearnakedchoke
01-30-2009, 06:29 PM
The Bible is pretty clear about what the unpardonable sin is and it's not suicide. It's when someone feels the leading and urging of the Holy Spirit in their life and claims that it is something evil, that's the unpardonable sin. Once they have reached that point, where they believe the Holy Spirit is evil, then it's impossible for them to get saved.

The unpardonable sin is not GOD's unwillingness to forgive, because there is no sin that GOD won't forgive, it's the unwillingness of an individual to accept forgiveness.

Basically, if you are a born-again Christian, then you can't commit the unpardonable sin.

So who can committ this sin? People who have always accepted Christ as the Saviour? I get what you are saying, but don't understand the born-again apart ...

NateR
01-30-2009, 06:44 PM
So who can committ this sin? People who have always accepted Christ as the Saviour? I get what you are saying, but don't understand the born-again apart ...

Only non-Christians and unsaved Christians can commit this sin. Born-again Christians cannot.

A born-again Christian is someone who has essentially sold themselves out for GOD. As Paul put it, they have become slaves to GOD. They understand that GOD comes first, before their spouses, their children, their families, their selves, their country... everyone. When they attend church, they do so because they want to, not out of some fear of retribution if they skip a Sunday.

Unsaved Christians, are the traditional Christians. They go to church and follow the basic tenants of the religion, but they have never made a commitment to GOD, thus they put themselves, their families, their goals and their personal priorities before GOD. These tend to be the legalistic Christians who get bogged down in rules and traditions.

MattHughesRocks
01-30-2009, 06:52 PM
Amen!
I freakin' LOVE NateR :w00t:


Only non-Christians and unsaved Christians can commit this sin. Born-again Christians cannot.

A born-again Christian is someone who has essentially sold themselves out for GOD. As Paul put it, they have become slaves to GOD. They understand that GOD comes first, before their spouses, their children, their families, their selves, their country... everyone. When they attend church, they do so because they want to, not out of some fear of retribution if they skip a Sunday.

Unsaved Christians, are the traditional Christians. They go to church and follow the basic tenants of the religion, but they have never made a commitment to GOD, thus they put themselves, their families, their goals and their personal priorities before GOD. These tend to be the legalistic Christians who get bogged down in rules and traditions.

Spiritwalker
01-30-2009, 06:57 PM
Only non-Christians and unsaved Christians can commit this sin. Born-again Christians cannot.

A born-again Christian is someone who has essentially sold themselves out for GOD. As Paul put it, they have become slaves to GOD. They understand that GOD comes first, before their spouses, their children, their families, their selves, their country... everyone. When they attend church, they do so because they want to, not out of some fear of retribution if they skip a Sunday.

Unsaved Christians, are the traditional Christians. They go to church and follow the basic tenants of the religion, but they have never made a commitment to GOD, thus they put themselves, their families, their goals and their personal priorities before GOD. These tend to be the legalistic Christians who get bogged down in rules and traditions.


Damn!!! :sign0081: :sign0011:

rearnakedchoke
01-30-2009, 07:18 PM
Only non-Christians and unsaved Christians can commit this sin. Born-again Christians cannot.

A born-again Christian is someone who has essentially sold themselves out for GOD. As Paul put it, they have become slaves to GOD. They understand that GOD comes first, before their spouses, their children, their families, their selves, their country... everyone. When they attend church, they do so because they want to, not out of some fear of retribution if they skip a Sunday.

Unsaved Christians, are the traditional Christians. They go to church and follow the basic tenants of the religion, but they have never made a commitment to GOD, thus they put themselves, their families, their goals and their personal priorities before GOD. These tend to be the legalistic Christians who get bogged down in rules and traditions.


great .. thanks for the clarification .. i agree with that, just didn't know the terminology ...

rearnakedchoke
01-30-2009, 07:18 PM
Damn!!! :sign0081: :sign0011:

Owned??? I was asking question, not making a challenge .. oh well ...

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 08:34 PM
The Bible is pretty clear about what the unpardonable sin is and it's not suicide. It's when someone feels the leading and urging of the Holy Spirit in their life and claims that it is something evil, that's the unpardonable sin. Once they have reached that point, where they believe the Holy Spirit is evil, then it's impossible for them to get saved.

The unpardonable sin is not GOD's unwillingness to forgive, because there is no sin that GOD won't forgive, it's the unwillingness of an individual to accept forgiveness.

Basically, if you are a born-again Christian, then you can't commit the unpardonable sin.
Do you think?

So you dont think people who committ suicide go to Hell :unsure-1:

rearnakedchoke
01-30-2009, 08:49 PM
Do you think?

So you dont think people who committ suicide go to Hell :unsure-1:

i don't think he said that .. he said every sin is forgivable if you are born-again ... if i got it right ...

Crisco
01-30-2009, 08:51 PM
I wonder what God does when someone commits that sin( out of ignorance perhaps) but later repents and finds salvation..

Crisco
01-30-2009, 08:52 PM
i don't think he said that .. he said every sin is forgivable if you are born-again ... if i got it right ...

That pretty much true even though it may not have been exactly what he went.


Really what it means is that a born-again Christian cannot commit a sin that God won't forgive.

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 08:54 PM
That pretty much true even though it may not have been exactly what he went.


Really what it means is that a born-again Christian cannot commit a sin that God won't forgive.
:cry: I know Christians who have committed suicide.

One of my Fathers friends from the York revival, he was a minister, but when his Wife decided to leave him for someone else and took the Children with her, he lay down on the rail tracks and waited for the train :sad:

NateR
01-30-2009, 09:01 PM
Do you think?

So you dont think people who committ suicide go to Hell :unsure-1:

If they are a born again Christian and have somehow been deceived enough to think that suicide is the only option, or maybe it's something they do in a moment of panic without thinking it through, then I don't think that they would go to Hell.

There is no biblical mention of suicide and saying that Jesus' talk of the unpardonable sin is referring to suicide is a real stretch. There's nothing in those passages that imply suicide.

Again, suicide is no greater a sin than murder. If you want to consider it a more serious sin than murder, then that's your opinion; but there is nothing in the Bible to support that.

NateR
01-30-2009, 09:03 PM
:cry: I know Christians who have committed suicide.

One of my Fathers friends from the York revival, he was a minister, but when his Wife decided to leave him for someone else and took the Children with her, he lay down on the rail tracks and waited for the train :sad:

Well, that man might have been a Christian, but there's a good chance that he wasn't born again.

NateR
01-30-2009, 09:24 PM
I wonder what God does when someone commits that sin( out of ignorance perhaps) but later repents and finds salvation..

Well, that's the problem with the unpardonable sin, once you've committed it and convinced yourself that the Holy Spirit is something evil, then that's it. You have no chance of repenting or being saved after that. Again, not because GOD is unwilling to forgive, but because you no longer believe that you require forgiveness.

Salvation is not something that we have to do for ourselves. We don't have to go seeking GOD, He comes looking for us. GOD does all the work in salvation and all we have to do is stop struggling and fighting against Him and accept it.

I've heard it described it as Jesus coming to the front door of your house and knocking. The first time He comes to the door, He knocks loudly and confidently calls out your name from outside; but there is no answer, so He leaves. He comes back later and knocks again, still loudly, but a little more subdued. Again, no answer so He leaves. He returns a third time and knocks a little softer and doesn't say anything, still no answer, so he leaves again. When He returns a fourth, fifth and sixth time, the knocking on the door gets softer and softer and He doesn't wait around as long before leaving. Eventually, He just stops coming to your door and that's it, you've just wasted every chance you've had for salvation. With your unresponsiveness, you've told GOD that you don't want to have anything to do with Him, so He gives you exactly what you want: an eternity without Him. You've just committed the unpardonable sin.

MattHughesRocks
01-30-2009, 09:52 PM
Gezz, I'm glad I only took two knocks :w00t:



Well, that's the problem with the unpardonable sin, once you've committed it and convinced yourself that the Holy Spirit is something evil, then that's it. You have no chance of repenting or being saved after that. Again, not because GOD is unwilling to forgive, but because you no longer believe that you require forgiveness.

Salvation is not something that we have to do for ourselves. We don't have to go seeking GOD, He comes looking for us. GOD does all the work in salvation and all we have to do is stop struggling and fighting against Him and accept it.

I've heard it described it as Jesus coming to the front door of your house and knocking. The first time He comes to the door, He knocks loudly and confidently calls out your name from outside; but there is no answer, so He leaves. He comes back later and knocks again, still loudly, but a little more subdued. Again, no answer so He leaves. He returns a third time and knocks a little softer and doesn't say anything, still no answer, so he leaves again. When He returns a fourth, fifth and sixth time, the knocking on the door gets softer and softer and He doesn't wait around as long before leaving. Eventually, He just stops coming to your door and that's it, you've just wasted every chance you've had for salvation. With your unresponsiveness, you've told GOD that you don't want to have anything to do with Him, so He gives you exactly what you want: an eternity without Him. You've just committed the unpardonable sin.

Crisco
01-30-2009, 10:13 PM
I'm not sure which knock I answered on but it was the best day of my life...

It's going on about 2 years now that I've been saved.

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 10:20 PM
Well, that's the problem with the unpardonable sin, once you've committed it and convinced yourself that the Holy Spirit is something evil, then that's it. You have no chance of repenting or being saved after that. Again, not because GOD is unwilling to forgive, but because you no longer believe that you require forgiveness.

Salvation is not something that we have to do for ourselves. We don't have to go seeking GOD, He comes looking for us. GOD does all the work in salvation and all we have to do is stop struggling and fighting against Him and accept it.

I've heard it described it as Jesus coming to the front door of your house and knocking. The first time He comes to the door, He knocks loudly and confidently calls out your name from outside; but there is no answer, so He leaves. He comes back later and knocks again, still loudly, but a little more subdued. Again, no answer so He leaves. He returns a third time and knocks a little softer and doesn't say anything, still no answer, so he leaves again. When He returns a fourth, fifth and sixth time, the knocking on the door gets softer and softer and He doesn't wait around as long before leaving. Eventually, He just stops coming to your door and that's it, you've just wasted every chance you've had for salvation. With your unresponsiveness, you've told GOD that you don't want to have anything to do with Him, so He gives you exactly what you want: an eternity without Him. You've just committed the unpardonable sin.

Then explain "Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you"

See...what youve said is just as unscriptural as suggesting Suicide is the unpardonable sin, because there is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus goes to you, and then he gives up on bothering to knock on your door. His love is unconditional, and the Old Testament clearly shows that he has never-ending patience...he bails Israel out every single time...sooo I dont think that your description is very accurate.

You are supposed to search! You should be encouraged to search with everything you have. GOD sanctifies and reedeems, but the unsaved shouldnt just sit on their arse and do nothing!

NateR
01-30-2009, 10:42 PM
Then explain "Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you"

See...what youve said is just as unscriptural as suggesting Suicide is the unpardonable sin, because there is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus goes to you, and then he gives up on bothering to knock on your door. His love is unconditional, and the Old Testament clearly shows that he has never-ending patience...he bails Israel out every single time...sooo I dont think that your description is very accurate.

You are supposed to search! You should be encouraged to search with everything you have. GOD sanctifies and reedeems, but the unsaved shouldnt just sit on their arse and do nothing!

You've missed the point entirely. You're taking the illustration too literally and it's not mine, I heard it during a sermon when I was a kid and it's always stuck with me. Any parable, illustration, word picture (whatever you want to call them) can be overanalyzed and torn apart if you want to; but that's not the point of them.

GOD never turns away anyone who seeks Him, however, we don't need to seek Him to be saved, because that would imply a works-based salvation.

The illustration of Jesus knocking on the door is just meant to represent someone who ignores GOD completely through their life. It's not meant to represent every single human being on the planet, it's meant to give an overall idea that GOD is the one who is coming to us, not the other way around. As CS Lewis put it: (and I'm paraphrasing here) Religion is man seeking GOD, Christianity is GOD seeking man.

Another "word picture" is of a lamb who's fallen off of a small cliff and is entangled in some thorn bushes. The shepherd finds the lamb and has to reach down to grab the lamb and pull him back up. However, the lamb is in pain and frightened and keeps fighting the shepherd so that he can't get a good enough grip to pull the lamb loose and lift him to safety. So the shepherd has to wait until the lamb has completely exhausted himself from struggling and has no more strength to resist the shepherd reaching down, grabbing hold of the lamb and pulling it to safety.

Obviously the shepherd refers to GOD and the lamb is us. GOD has done all the work necessary for us to be saved, all we have to do is stop resisting Him and allow Him to reach down and grab hold of us. Once we do that, he will never let us go.

The thing about these word pictures is, if they aren't working for you, then ignore them. They're not biblical, they're just meant to help illustrate a point.

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 10:50 PM
You've missed the point entirely. You're taking the illustration too literally and it's not mine, I heard it during a sermon when I was a kid and it's always stuck with me. Any parable, illustration, word picture (whatever you want to call them) can be overanalyzed and torn apart if you want to; but that's not the point of them.

GOD never turns away anyone who seeks Him, however, we don't need to seek Him to be saved, because that would imply a works-based salvation.

The illustration of Jesus knocking on the door is just meant to represent someone who ignores GOD completely through their life. It's not meant to represent every single human being on the planet, it's meant to give an overall idea that GOD is the one who is coming to us, not the other way around. As CS Lewis put it: (and I'm paraphrasing here) Religion is man seeking GOD, Christianity is GOD seeking man.

Another "word picture" is of a lamb who's fallen off of a small cliff and is entangled in some thorn bushes. The shepherd finds the lamb and has to reach down to grab the lamb and pull him back up. However, the lamb is in pain and frightened and keeps fighting the shepherd so that he can't get a good enough grip to pull the lamb loose and lift him to safety. So the shepherd has to wait until the lamb has completely exhausted himself from struggling and has no more strength to resist the shepherd reaching down, grabbing hold of the lamb and pulling it to safety.

Obviously the shepherd refers to GOD and the lamb is us. GOD has done all the work necessary for us to be saved, all we have to do is stop resisting Him and allow Him to reach down and grab hold of us. Once we do that, he will never let us go.

The thing about these word pictures is, if they aren't working for you, then ignore them. They're not biblical, they're just meant to help illustrate a point.

Are you talking about this

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6554/huntlightofworldap7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
[URL=http://g.imageshack.us/img149/huntlightofworldap7.jpg/1/][IMG]

Its a Painting of Christ knocking at a door. The door is supposed to represent the unsaved heart, and you'll notice there is no handle, it can only be opened from the inside. Its called "The Light of The World" :w00t:

"Behold I stand at the door and knock...." There are several of these paintings...one lies as the Rearadross for the Middlesex Regimental Chapel in Saint Paul's Cathedrals' North Transept.

NateR
01-30-2009, 10:59 PM
Are you talking about this

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6554/huntlightofworldap7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
[URL=http://g.imageshack.us/img149/huntlightofworldap7.jpg/1/][IMG]

Its a Painting of Christ knocking at a door. The door is supposed to represent the unsaved heart, and you'll notice there is no handle, it can only be opened from the inside. Its called "The Light of The World" :w00t:

"Behold I stand at the door and knock...." There are several of these paintings...one lies as the Rearadross for the Middlesex Regimental Chapel in Saint Paul's Cathedrals' North Transept.

Yep, that's the idea. I think when I first heard it, the door was referred to as the "heart's door."

Tyburn
01-30-2009, 11:04 PM
Yep, that's the idea. I think when I first heard it, the door was referred to as the "heart's door."
:) I understand you now...sorry I was reading you a completely different way. Yeah....Do you remember when we were in London for UFC85? Well one of the Three Evensongs I went to was a commemoration of the Annerversary of the donation of this painting to the Cathedral, The Painters Great Grand-daughter sat next to me :laugh:

The Rearadross must be something like Twelve Feet High behind the Altar, its very large and had two large doors so that it could be hidden on the Saturday between Good Friday and Easter Sunday :sad:

warriorlion
01-31-2009, 09:04 AM
QFT


so what happened to all authority is given by God. john 19:11

shouldnt we be praying for Obama; rather than criticise and point fingers saying he is not qualified.

give the man a chance, if he truely is born again as he claims by the resurecction of Christ, providing he seeks God while in office who could be more qualified???

Moses??? Joshua????Paul???

Neezar
02-01-2009, 05:06 AM
give the man a chance, if he truely is born again as he claims by the resurecction of Christ, providing he seeks God while in office who could be more qualified???

Moses??? Joshua????Paul???


:laugh:

NateR
02-01-2009, 06:10 AM
so what happened to all authority is given by God. john 19:11

shouldnt we be praying for Obama; rather than criticise and point fingers saying he is not qualified.

give the man a chance, if he truely is born again as he claims by the resurecction of Christ, providing he seeks God while in office who could be more qualified???

Moses??? Joshua????Paul???

I believe that Obama is a church-goes, but I don't think he's a Christian. And he's way too wishy-washy and pluralistic, when he talks about his faith, for me to believe that he is born-again.

rearnakedchoke
02-01-2009, 06:13 AM
I believe that Obama is a church-goes, but I don't think he's a Christian. And he's way too wishy-washy and pluralistic, when he talks about his faith, for me to believe that he is born-again.

well, i am not an expert, but can you really be a Christian if you are pro-choice?

NateR
02-01-2009, 06:23 AM
well, i am not an expert, but can you really be a Christian if you are pro-choice?

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say it disqualifies someone from being a Christian, but it is a HUUUUGE red flag.

rearnakedchoke
02-01-2009, 06:31 AM
Well, I wouldn't necessarily say it disqualifies someone from being a Christian, but it is a HUUUUGE red flag.
Again, I am not an expert, but Thou Shalt not Kill ...

Is condoning it not the same thing??? Again, not challenging you, just looking for clarification

NateR
02-01-2009, 06:44 AM
Again, I am not an expert, but Thou Shalt not Kill ...

Is condoning it not the same thing??? Again, not challenging you, just looking for clarification

There are those few people who hate abortion and would never have one; but don't believe it is their place to tell someone else they can't have an abortion. I don't necessarily understand that mindset, but there are people in my church like that who I still believe are Christians.

Honestly, I think it's more of a cowardly stance (similar to the German citizens who were silent even though they knew of the Nazi death camps); but being afraid to stand up for your morals and values doesn't disqualify you from being a Christian.

rearnakedchoke
02-01-2009, 07:14 AM
There are those few people who hate abortion and would never have one; but don't believe it is their place to tell someone else they can't have an abortion. I don't necessarily understand that mindset, but there are people in my church like that who I still believe are Christians.

Honestly, I think it's more of a cowardly stance (similar to the German citizens who were silent even though they knew of the Nazi death camps); but being afraid to stand up for your morals and values doesn't disqualify you from being a Christian.

i hear ya ... just sounds like a cop out to me ... it would be like someone saying, well being a pedophile is a sin, but what people do behind their own doors is their business ...

a sin is a sin and condoning it is also a sin .. NO?

NateR
02-01-2009, 07:28 AM
i hear ya ... just sounds like a cop out to me ... it would be like someone saying, well being a pedophile is a sin, but what people do behind their own doors is their business ...

a sin is a sin and condoning it is also a sin .. NO?

Actually, yes. If you read Ezekiel chapter 9, it tells of angels who were called forth to punish the city of Jerusalem. One angel was sent out to place a mark on the foreheads of anyone who wept or even just sighed at the injustices and sins being committed in the city. The rest of the angels went through the city with battle axes and slaughtered everyone who didn't have a mark on their forehead. So yes, in GOD's eyes, someone who is complacent and turns a blind eye to the sins of others is just as guilty as the people committing the sins.

I believe that Christians who are pro-choice are essentially cowards or have been deceived by the lies of this world and they will answer for their ignorance.

Although, Lot was guilty of the same sin while living in Sodom and Gomorrah and GOD rescued him and his family before destroying the cities. So, complacency doesn't necessarily disqualify someone from being a Christian, but it is going to bring some harsh judgement down upon them.

J.B.
02-01-2009, 08:17 AM
Erm...opening talks with Iran...thats an accomplishment not managed by several of his predeccessors..Historically I dont think its happened since 1970s...Bush wanted to...but didnt get very far.



:laugh:

Obama has not done anything in terms of opening talks with Iran, nor will he get much farther than any other president in my opinion. All he did was make a statement that basically said he is willing to work with Iran, and then Iran shot back and said WE need to apologize for decades of treating them badly. Sorry, but Iran can get bent. They are a huge part of the worlds problems, and America does not owe them anything.

I do agree with Nate that Obama and Biden have overstated the severity of this crisis. It does take time to see how policies will pan out, so it's too early to say one way or the other if Obama's plan will work. However, I think that this new "economic stimulus package" will be filled with a bunch of useless left-wing pork spending. I am rooting for Obama to succeed, for the good of our great nation, but I am just not sure I believe his plan will achieve all he is claiming it will.

Tyburn
02-01-2009, 09:26 AM
:laugh:

Obama has not done anything in terms of opening talks with Iran, nor will he get much farther than any other president in my opinion. All he did was make a statement that basically said he is willing to work with Iran, and then Iran shot back and said WE need to apologize for decades of treating them badly. Sorry, but Iran can get bent. They are a huge part of the worlds problems, and America does not owe them anything.

I do agree with Nate that Obama and Biden have overstated the severity of this crisis. It does take time to see how policies will pan out, so it's too early to say one way or the other if Obama's plan will work. However, I think that this new "economic stimulus package" will be filled with a bunch of useless left-wing pork spending. I am rooting for Obama to succeed, for the good of our great nation, but I am just not sure I believe his plan will achieve all he is claiming it will.

No, I believe he's opened direct talks. :)

This means him, or his envoys will be able to talk directly to the Irainians..how America ever thinks it can solve anything without at least being able to talk to the Enemy I dont know.

J.B.
02-01-2009, 04:03 PM
No, I believe he's opened direct talks. :)

This means him, or his envoys will be able to talk directly to the Irainians..how America ever thinks it can solve anything without at least being able to talk to the Enemy I dont know.

Please show me a source to back up that claim. Like I said, simply making a statement that Iran basically balks at is NOT direct talks.

Dave, there is no talking to the Iranians. Don't you think if we could have worked this problem out a long time ago we would have? We are talking about IRAN, not a civilized nation.

NateR
02-01-2009, 05:13 PM
No, I believe he's opened direct talks. :)

This means him, or his envoys will be able to talk directly to the Irainians..how America ever thinks it can solve anything without at least being able to talk to the Enemy I dont know.

No, he hasn't. The Iranians are not willing to talk.

Tyburn
02-01-2009, 06:10 PM
Of course they will talk...they just wont aggree to change their minds :rolleyes:

I read it in the paper. :mellow:

He hasnt sat down with them yet, but he's opened up the diplomatic channels...and they are willing to talk to him...of course they are hoping to make America change its mind...that is why for the first time the Iranians sent a Congratulatory note to him when he won the Presidency.

Now whether they ever do actually talk, will probably depend on when they have something to talk about, the point is he has opened Diplomatic Channels. It is an achievement even if it comes to nothing...

What you dont seem to understand is that for the first time your Enemies are willing to speak with the Administration because it is new, and liberal, they are in effect trying to win the Administration over to their views. But I'm sure Obama knows that....Russia is behaving in exactly the same way even when Obama said he still plans to go ahead with Starwars...they suddenly removed Missiles from the planned boarder in the hope they can talk him out of it.

It he won the vote by being good at speaking, perhaps he CAN delude your enemies by speech aswell.

Tyburn
02-01-2009, 06:26 PM
Please show me a source to back up that claim. Like I said, simply making a statement that Iran basically balks at is NOT direct talks.

Dave, there is no talking to the Iranians. Don't you think if we could have worked this problem out a long time ago we would have? We are talking about IRAN, not a civilized nation.
No...JB I dont

When you say "work this problem out" you dont mean discuss and come to a decision, you mean "when Iran does what we say" The problem with this is Iran is doing something within itself. Who has authority over any soverign nation but themselves.

Did anyone stop you from making Nuclear Bombs?? Does anyone have the right to tell another Country what to do in its homeland? The fact they dont immediately give into your demands does not make them "uncivilized" at all. They might be third world, and they might be ruthless and evil...but "uncivilized" They are not a hoard of Barbarians, they are quite a united front, they know what they want, and they know what their rights as a Soverign Nation are.

Dont dehumanize or belittle your enemies, they dont shrink in reality when you write them off as fools. KNOW your enemies. Do you know anything about Iran? Dont under-estimate them. These are not fools, they are not Iraq, and they are not Afghanistan, its not a dictatorship whose country is oppressed, or a band of rebels and clans...Iran is industrialized Nation, and verging on Nuclear Capabilities OF THEIR OWN invention. They should be treated as extremely dangerous...unlike Saddam who played sillybeggers but didnt really have the WMD...if Iran had them, I honnestly think you wouldnt be needing the United Nations to confirm that fact....and their target wont be a terror campaign against you...it will be Modern Warfare against Israel.

So you see, these are not uncivilized beasts, anymore then the Nazi Party of 1940s Germany. These are TRUE danger, you will have to use your MINDS and WITS to fight these guys, aswell as your Might. The good thing about this is GOD is on your side. GOD was on our side during the War against Germany. GOD inspired Morals into certain High Ranking Military Nazi in Germany just before the war, and had them Step Aside, so that Fanatics could whisper in Hitlers Ear, rather then true Military Tactitions...and it paid off...When Hitler had driven the British back to the Channel, rather then taking England, which he could have done....the Fanatics whispered, that Russia was for the taking aswell, why not DO BOTH.

GOD also inspired the recluse nation of America who hid behind their long distance, to get angry and to come to our aid right when we needed them.

If this ends in tears...at least GOD is on OUR side and not theres...but dont under-estimate the possibility of diplomacy to get to some of the Elite..If you cant bring a Nation down, do something so they bring themselves down...I dont know the facts, but didnt Iran have a particularly violent Revolution at one point...you know...those Military leaders I told you about in Germany...They came so close to ending the war in 1944...they attempted a Coup

J.B.
02-01-2009, 07:21 PM
No...JB I dont

When you say "work this problem out" you dont mean discuss and come to a decision, you mean "when Iran does what we say" The problem with this is Iran is doing something within itself. Who has authority over any soverign nation but themselves.

Did anyone stop you from making Nuclear Bombs?? Does anyone have the right to tell another Country what to do in its homeland? The fact they dont immediately give into your demands does not make them "uncivilized" at all. They might be third world, and they might be ruthless and evil...but "uncivilized" They are not a hoard of Barbarians, they are quite a united front, they know what they want, and they know what their rights as a Soverign Nation are.

Dont dehumanize or belittle your enemies, they dont shrink in reality when you write them off as fools. KNOW your enemies. Do you know anything about Iran? Dont under-estimate them. These are not fools, they are not Iraq, and they are not Afghanistan, its not a dictatorship whose country is oppressed, or a band of rebels and clans...Iran is industrialized Nation, and verging on Nuclear Capabilities OF THEIR OWN invention. They should be treated as extremely dangerous...unlike Saddam who played sillybeggers but didnt really have the WMD...if Iran had them, I honnestly think you wouldnt be needing the United Nations to confirm that fact....and their target wont be a terror campaign against you...it will be Modern Warfare against Israel.

So you see, these are not uncivilized beasts, anymore then the Nazi Party of 1940s Germany. These are TRUE danger, you will have to use your MINDS and WITS to fight these guys, aswell as your Might. The good thing about this is GOD is on your side. GOD was on our side during the War against Germany. GOD inspired Morals into certain High Ranking Military Nazi in Germany just before the war, and had them Step Aside, so that Fanatics could whisper in Hitlers Ear, rather then true Military Tactitions...and it paid off...When Hitler had driven the British back to the Channel, rather then taking England, which he could have done....the Fanatics whispered, that Russia was for the taking aswell, why not DO BOTH.

GOD also inspired the recluse nation of America who hid behind their long distance, to get angry and to come to our aid right when we needed them.

If this ends in tears...at least GOD is on OUR side and not theres...but dont under-estimate the possibility of diplomacy to get to some of the Elite..If you cant bring a Nation down, do something so they bring themselves down...I dont know the facts, but didnt Iran have a particularly violent Revolution at one point...you know...those Military leaders I told you about in Germany...They came so close to ending the war in 1944...they attempted a Coup

Dave, the bottom line is Iran supports terrorist organizations and is a major part of the problems in the middle east. They may be a sovereign nation, but letting them possess a nuclear weapon is NOT a smart move. The majority of the world seems to agree on that.

I am not against working things out diplomatically, but the reason that has not happened in the last 40 years is because of Iran, not because of us. You and I obviously share different views on what "civilized" is, but in my opinion Iran certainly does not fit the bill. No matter how organized they are.

Tyburn
02-01-2009, 08:03 PM
Dave, the bottom line is Iran supports terrorist organizations and is a major part of the problems in the middle east. They may be a sovereign nation, but letting them possess a nuclear weapon is NOT a smart move. The majority of the world seems to agree on that.

I am not against working things out diplomatically, but the reason that has not happened in the last 40 years is because of Iran, not because of us. You and I obviously share different views on what "civilized" is, but in my opinion Iran certainly does not fit the bill. No matter how organized they are.
Are you sure...I thought it was America that called off Diplomacy after somekinda Embassy hostage situation in the 1970s...perhaps I'm wrong about them :blink:

I didnt say letting them have nuclear weapons was a clever move. I just think that America cant afford to get this wrong so she should be cautious how she plays things...if that means opening diplomacy, then take the opportunity