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Vizion
04-25-2009, 03:40 AM
Found this on another forum http://www.christianforums.com/t7284789/

I saw that cross around his neck all the time and had to look it up.:)

New Fedor Interview from his official website: Федор Емельяненко. Официальный сайт

It was posted in Russian. I couldn't find a translation anywhere else, so I'm posting my translation here:

Note: This was translated by stripthesoul at Sherdog.

------------------------
As it usually happens, after another victory or an achieving some major results, Russian athletes gather an enormous interest from the press. Fedor Emelianenko in this case, is not an exception. As soon as he crossed the ocean he was bombarded with offers for interviews, to shoot some special programs, etc. Finally, once the frenzy was over, we had an opportunity to ask the champion a few questions that have built up.

Q: Fedor; you have fought your first fight, this year, on your new contract. It was one of the shortest time records in your deserving list. Did you expect such quick victory over Tim Sylvia?

- A: I never expect when the fight should be over, and can never predict in advance. Of course, you want it to be over as soon as possible, but I always prepare myself for a long and exhausting fight.

Q: Athlete's entrance to the ring traditionally is accompanied by music. This time, it was a total surprise for the viewers, when suddenly, an old Cossack proverb "Son Stepana Razina", better known as a national folk song "Oy, to ne vecher", started playing. What reason was there for this choice, and who sang this song on the recording?

- A: This was my choice; I very much like this song. In my life quest God crossed my paths with an amazing man - Protodeacon of Nizhniy Novgorod's archdiocese - father Andrey. When I heard this song done during his prayer, I asked him to record it for me, and he agreed.

Q: After the fight there was a zoomed in shot of your trainer Vladimir Voronov, put a cross on your body. It appeared not too long ago. Are you a man of faith?

- A: Yes, I'm a man of faith, and from not too long ago my life has changed, I will try to live by God's commandments...

Q: A first step of becoming a church going person, is usually taken after some kind of distress: heavy disease, loss of a close person, other tragic events... What was the reason for you to make that decision?

- A: After I met father Andrey, all my doubts disappeared... After spending some time near this man, I understood, that this is the only right way; and through Father Andrey, God led me to people, who helped me realize, how I lived and how I should be living in the future.

Q: One of the unfortunate disappointments that happened in your last fight, was your injury: broken finger, which you already had surgery on, more than a year ago. According to international norms, after such injury you can talk about coming back, no earlier than half a year. Does that mean that you will not be competing anymore in 2008?

- A: To tell you the truth, I don't feel strong pain. My hand is healing; let's hope that everything will come together. But my next event is planned for November: in St. Petersburg there will be a World Championship in Combat Sambo.

Q: You don't plan to take part in "Affliction 2" in October?
- A: I would like to compete at Affliction 2, but so far I'm not sure if that will happen.

Q: In the past Affliction event, your brother Aleksander was suppose to compete. What was the reason they would not let him in the ring? Many are afraid, that a similar situation will repeat during next event.
- A: I cannot comment in any way on this situation. Aleksander really was removed from competing because of some blood analyses. So I cannot really say anything.

Q: Last couple of years you don't train with your brother; he moved to live in St. Petersburg, and your training are mainly held in Stary Oskol. Are there any plans to restart joint training sessions?
- A: It is more convenient and better for me to train in Stary Oskol, but this does not sit well with Aleksander at all. As far as I understood from his latest interviews, he likes it in St. Petersburg, and he's not planning to leave it for any training sessions.

Q: A big support group has flown with you to America. How important is that for you?
- A: It is important for me, of course, when close people are near; those who always support me, worry and pray about me. It's sad that not everyone got a chance to come, but despite that, it was nice to see the guys who are rooting for me in the arena.

Q: Do you have any plans to fly to Beijing, to support Russian athletes?
- A: Unfortunately, my plans are turning out in such way, that I will not be able to go to Beijing. Although I want to.

Q: In the number of organizers of the Affliction event - is world renowned manufacturer of styled clothing, done in gothic style. Even you came out in an Affliction T-Shirt. Do you prefer such "brave" style of clothing?
- A: I prefer more of a simple style. Although, I do like Affliction style of clothing very much, it's convenient, comfortable. All the symbols of the Orthodox Church were present on my shirt, so I decided to wear it when coming out to the ring.

Q: In one of the recent interviews you talked about a project "Fighting Fedor"; were the participant casted already? When will it start?
- A: This question is for Vadim Finkelstein - he takes care of this project. I don't know any exact dates.

Q: What are your upcoming plans?
- A: I'm flying to America right now to take part in a press conference. Also we have negotiations with the Affliction firm.
__________________
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord. Thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." (Jeremiah 29:11)

Tyburn
04-26-2009, 10:59 PM
Fedor is a member of The Russian Orthodox Church. :)

He probably celebrates Easter and Christmas at slightly different times, and his church will look like High Church Romanism, but without the Latin, less statues, but more big banners that they like to parade with. His Churches will be extremely decorative and probably quite wealthy. His Cross may look slightly different to our, it may have up to three horizontal bars (the smaller one at the top is supposed to be the name tag at the crucifixtion, the smaller one at the bottom is the foot rest) and it might or might not be angled at a slight diagonal.

The Orthodox Church uses its own monograms...so he wont represent Jesus by the letter "IHS" or "INRI"

Now the Orthodox Church use slightly different symbology.

There monogram is actually a symbol. Draw a circle, in the circle draw a cross, then draw a P ontop of the cross. its called Chi-Rho or he might use the symbol of the fish (Ikthus) there is a funny bunch of OXC letters the greeks use I think in place of INRI...but I aint really up on Orthodox symbology

Krupp
04-27-2009, 06:16 PM
I think the question is what does Fedor really believe about Christ, though? If he believes in Christ as his savior and God then that's wonderful. I'm not trying to doubt him or anything, but the word "God" gets thrown around a lot these days...

Crisco
04-27-2009, 06:29 PM
It seems he gives more credit to this priest then he does to God.

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 07:17 PM
It seems he gives more credit to this priest then he does to God.
He's orthodox, if its more easy, think of him as a Roman Catholic...he isnt...but the basis of what they do and how they do it, are almost the same.:ninja:

Crisco
04-27-2009, 07:37 PM
He's orthodox, if its more easy, think of him as a Roman Catholic...he isnt...but the basis of what they do and how they do it, are almost the same.:ninja:

Yea and they both bother me just the same.

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 08:31 PM
Yea and they both bother me just the same.
:blink: oooookay :unsure-1:

Crisco
04-27-2009, 08:36 PM
:blink: oooookay :unsure-1:

I was in a catholic church not to long ago. MY girlfriends family is catholic and I go to make them happy on holidays and such and he went on for a half about Mary... He spoke more about Mary then he did about Christ.

I was at a catholic church for my cousins wedding about a year ago and before the priest Married them he had them walk up to a statue of Mary bow to and then put flowers in front of it. I was infuriated I almost had to leave.


All the ceremony and non-biblical teaching upsets me quite a bit.

As for the Orthodoxy, Fedor's willingness to thank his priest seventeen times and to barely make reference at all to his relationship with Christ is upsetting and yet again shows flaw in his thinking (atleast in my opinion).

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 08:55 PM
I was in a catholic church not to long ago. MY girlfriends family is catholic and I go to make them happy on holidays and such and he went on for a half about Mary... He spoke more about Mary then he did about Christ.

I was at a catholic church for my cousins wedding about a year ago and before the priest Married them he had them walk up to a statue of Mary bow to and then put flowers in front of it. I was infuriated I almost had to leave.


All the ceremony and non-biblical teaching upsets me quite a bit.

As for the Orthodoxy, Fedor's willingness to thank his priest seventeen times and to barely make reference at all to his relationship with Christ is upsetting and yet again shows flaw in his thinking (atleast in my opinion).

Yes, they do go on about Mary to much. :unsure-1:

Crisco
04-27-2009, 09:02 PM
Yes, they do go on about Mary to much. :unsure-1:
]

It's gone beyond paying respect they have it narrowed to damn near idolatry.

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 09:11 PM
]

It's gone beyond paying respect they have it narrowed to damn near idolatry.
The problem is Rome doesnt have enough control over the Catholics anymore. Rome says its respect, and that worship of Mary "is abhorent" but many catholics are relatively unsupervised you know...kinda taken the idea and ran with it...maybe a bit to far in some cases.

Mary is certainly one of them.

Outside of the fact that I dont believe in Apostolic Succession, I also dont feel comfortable with Marian style Catholicism at all.

I can cope with all the rest...but those two aspects stop me from being Roman Catholic. The style of worship, the liturgy, the mysticism, I have no problem with. I can aggree to dissagree on the place of women in the church without to much hasstle, because at the end of the day I'm not a woman so it doesnt directly effect me. I can cope with patron saints, with the communion of saints, with Angelic host....

but I CANT cope with Mary and I CANT cope with The Pope. :blink:

Crisco
04-27-2009, 09:13 PM
The problem is Rome doesnt have enough control over the Catholics anymore. Rome says its respect, and that worship of Mary "is abhorent" but many catholics are relatively unsupervised you know...kinda taken the idea and ran with it...maybe a bit to far in some cases.

Mary is certainly one of them.

Outside of the fact that I dont believe in Apostolic Succession, I also dont feel comfortable with Marian style Catholicism at all.

I can cope with all the rest...but those two aspects stop me from being Roman Catholic. The style of worship, the liturgy, the mysticism, I have no problem with. I can aggree to dissagree on the place of women in the church without to much hasstle, because at the end of the day I'm not a woman so it doesnt directly effect me. I can cope with patron saints, with the communion of saints, with Angelic host....

but I CANT cope with Mary and I CANT cope with The Pope. :blink:

I also have a severe distaste for their version of confession.

Tell a priest your sins and then he tells you to say 5 our fathers and 5 hail mary's and your forgiven?

It's incredible. They treat God like he is a joke.

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 12:13 AM
I also have a severe distaste for their version of confession.

Tell a priest your sins and then he tells you to say 5 our fathers and 5 hail mary's and your forgiven?

It's incredible. They treat God like he is a joke.
No, you tell GOD your sins, in the presence of someone he has ordained to be priest.

The priest reminds you on behalf of GOD that your sins are forgiven (by GOD, not by him)

He may then suggest ways in which you might want to reflect on what you have done and show you are repentant in certain types of repeatative liturgical prayer.


or at least...thats what its supposed to be. Said like that, I dont have an issue with it. I mean we dont do it in the Anglican Church...but its good to get things off your chest occasionally, and you cant get away with pretending to seek forgiveness when confronted with someone in the flesh who is expecting answers.

The priest forces you to speak out loud what you have done, not skip over it silently in ones heart...that can be quite useful when someone wants to avoid confessing to certain things.

Neezar
04-28-2009, 12:28 AM
No, you tell GOD your sins, in the presence of someone he has ordained to be priest.

The priest reminds you on behalf of GOD that your sins are forgiven (by GOD, not by him)

He may then suggest ways in which you might want to reflect on what you have done and show you are repentant in certain types of repeatative liturgical prayer.


or at least...thats what its supposed to be. Said like that, I dont have an issue with it. I mean we dont do it in the Anglican Church...but its good to get things off your chest occasionally, and you cant get away with pretending to seek forgiveness when confronted with someone in the flesh who is expecting answers.

The priest forces you to speak out loud what you have done, not skip over it silently in ones heart...that can be quite useful when someone wants to avoid confessing to certain things.

So, who are you showing it (your repentance) to?

Dave, do you believe that chanting and/or repeating anything will show God that you are truly repentant? Or will he know it from your heart?

Neezar
04-28-2009, 12:30 AM
One more ?

No, you tell GOD your sins, in the presence of someone he has ordained to be priest.




Who has ordained to be priest? :huh: Are you saying that an evil person can't be hiding as a priest? Or are you implying that God, first hand, puts evil priests in the Church? Cause we know there are some there.

Crisco
04-28-2009, 12:30 AM
So, who are you showing it (your repentance) to?

Dave, do you believe that chanting and/or repeating anything will show God that you are truly repentant? Or will he know it from your heart?

It also says in Galations that we should not repeat prayers as the Heathens do.

Neezar
04-28-2009, 12:40 AM
*sigh* Okay, one more.

...but its good to get things off your chest occasionally, and you cant get away with pretending to seek forgiveness when confronted with someone in the flesh who is expecting answers.



Are you implying that we can pretend with God that we seek forgiveness? lol, This sounds like you are saying "Well, you might fool God but you can't fool someone in the flesh" :laugh:




Hmmm, okay one more.


The priest forces you to speak out loud what you have done, not skip over it silently in ones heart...that can be quite useful when someone wants to avoid confessing to certain things.

How does a priest force you to speak? Just keep silent. Unless....
This doesn't make any sense unless you are talking about a scenario where the priest knows you have sinned, knows what the sin was, and forces you to confess. In which case, it isn't a true confession/repentant situation.

Krupp
04-28-2009, 12:59 AM
As for the Orthodoxy, Fedor's willingness to thank his priest seventeen times and to barely make reference at all to his relationship with Christ is upsetting.

To be honest, this is what's been bothering me about it. If the priest is playing a role in Fedor's life and encouraging him to seek Christ, then that's great. But we don't know for sure what exactly Fedor's being taught; that is the real issue here. It's sad, because Fedor might be getting misguided here, and I wouldn't want that for anyone.

Vizion
04-28-2009, 02:57 AM
To be honest, this is what's been bothering me about it. If the priest is playing a role in Fedor's life and encouraging him to seek Christ, then that's great. But we don't know for sure what exactly Fedor's being taught; that is the real issue here. It's sad, because Fedor might be getting misguided here, and I wouldn't want that for anyone.hmm...so he is grateful for his priest for turning him onto God...but mentions no thanks to his Blessed Redeemer
...mayhaps orthodoxy christians are less "public" in their testimonies??

Crisco
04-28-2009, 04:23 AM
"After I met father Andrey, all my doubts disappeared... After spending some time near this man, I understood, that this is the only right way; and through Father Andrey, God led me to people, who helped me realize, how I lived and how I should be living in the future."

It could be a lost in translation thing or poorly worded by Fedor or maybe I'm reading to much into it... It just seems Father Andrey gets more love then God does... It's never God showed me the path or God came into my heart... It's father Andrey and his people taught me how to live.

I don't know I'm probably just being biased because of my distaste or the "high" churches.

Vizion
04-28-2009, 04:28 AM
"After I met father Andrey, all my doubts disappeared... After spending some time near this man, I understood, that this is the only right way; and through Father Andrey, God led me to people, who helped me realize, how I lived and how I should be living in the future."

It could be a lost in translation thing or poorly worded by Fedor or maybe I'm reading to much into it... It just seems Father Andrey gets more love then God does... It's never God showed me the path or God came into my heart... It's father Andrey and his people taught me how to live.

I don't know I'm probably just being biased because of my distaste or the "high" churches.
Obviously Fedor knows Father Andrey draws his inspiration from God...therefore I would assume he knows God is the source of his change of heart. The high churches hold their priests with high reverence...maybe they don't connect with God the way a Baptist or AoG churchman would, but who are we to question the salvation of someone based on what they said in an interview?

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 01:26 PM
So, who are you showing it (your repentance) to?

Dave, do you believe that chanting and/or repeating anything will show God that you are truly repentant? Or will he know it from your heart?
its supposed to be an outward sign of an inward manifestation :)

Crisco
04-28-2009, 01:28 PM
Obviously Fedor knows Father Andrey draws his inspiration from God...therefore I would assume he knows God is the source of his change of heart. The high churches hold their priests with high reverence...maybe they don't connect with God the way a Baptist or AoG churchman would, but who are we to question the salvation of someone based on what they said in an interview?

I'm not really questioning his salvation.. I'm just worried about what exactly he is being taught.

I dislike any form of Christianity that places reverence on men... It just seems wrong...

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 01:34 PM
One more ?




Who has ordained to be priest? :huh: Are you saying that an evil person can't be hiding as a priest? Or are you implying that God, first hand, puts evil priests in the Church? Cause we know there are some there.
Firstly, GOD is quite capable of ordaining even an evil person. Someone who commits terrible sin...like Murder, like adultory...most of the Biblical Greats, are made Great through GOD, NOT through themselves.

Secondly, yes, the calling to Ordination is from GOD, but there are different levels of Ordination. Some are called to be deacons, they cant celebrate the Eucharist. Some are Ordained Priests. These Ordinations are a form of Blessing, they are NOT a form of making pure or holy.

Now when you come to Ordaining a Bishop, you Consecrate a Bishop like you do a Church Building. Consecrating a Church Building makes it Holy Ground. Whilst Consecrating a Bishop does not make him "Holy", it is a step of Sanctification, it is NOT a Blessing

When Bishops speak they DO invoke the power of GOD, they do believe its directly that GOD has chosen them...for Example, when saying anything official, the Bishop will begin (I'll use +L as an example)

"I, Richard, BY DIVINE PERMISSION, Lord Bishop of London do hereby.....In the 15th Year of Our Translattion" (A Bishop is first Consecrated, but when he moves to become A Bishop else where, he is "Translated")

Your talking to one of the privilaged few who has SEEN the moment of Consecration for several Bishops...it was without doubt the most powerful thing I ever witnessed at Saint Paul's

Crisco
04-28-2009, 01:51 PM
Firstly, GOD is quite capable of ordaining even an evil person. Someone who commits terrible sin...like Murder, like adultory...most of the Biblical Greats, are made Great through GOD, NOT through themselves.

Secondly, yes, the calling to Ordination is from GOD, but there are different levels of Ordination. Some are called to be deacons, they cant celebrate the Eucharist. Some are Ordained Priests. These Ordinations are a form of Blessing, they are NOT a form of making pure or holy.

Now when you come to Ordaining a Bishop, you Consecrate a Bishop like you do a Church Building. Consecrating a Church Building makes it Holy Ground. Whilst Consecrating a Bishop does not make him "Holy", it is a step of Sanctification, it is NOT a Blessing

When Bishops speak they DO invoke the power of GOD, they do believe its directly that GOD has chosen them...for Example, when saying anything official, the Bishop will begin (I'll use +L as an example)

"I, Richard, BY DIVINE PERMISSION, Lord Bishop of London do hereby.....In the 15th Year of Our Translattion" (A Bishop is first Consecrated, but when he moves to become A Bishop else where, he is "Translated")

Your talking to one of the privilaged few who has SEEN the moment of Consecration for several Bishops...it was without doubt the most powerful thing I ever witnessed at Saint Paul's

That bothers me.

How does he know he has Divine permission to decree anything?

He has a duty to spread the gospel that is all. Who ordained him exactly? Another fallen man part of a church of fallen people.

The apostles and such where infact ordained by God Himself. It just seems disrespectful for one to assume they can become ordained because a priest in the higher pecking order says so and then all of sudden they have divine permission from God.

Jog on with that.

They should be preaching the gospel instead of all that other stuff. Their focus is completey wrong. They put more stock in their ritual then they do in testimony.

High churches are bad examples of Christians in my opinion. The catholic church originally drove me away with their ritual nonsense. The bible and God's grace brought me back not some guy with "divine permission".

Granted we all have divine permission to a degree because we are commanded to spread the Gospel but for someone to go through a ritual and then believe they are somehow more powerful in the eyes of God just seems wrong to me.

Miss Foxy
04-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Its lovely that Fedor acknowledges his faith! I don't see him praising his priest or church over God in my opinion. Just because he don't praise God like some of us do or don't does not mean we should doubt him. Thats something between him and God not any of us. Just my opinion. The Catholic Church aint so bad either hello I was a Catholic schoolgirl =)

Crisco
04-28-2009, 02:07 PM
Its lovely that Fedor acknowledges his faith! I don't see him praising his priest or church over God in my opinion. Just because he don't praise God like some of us do or don't does not mean we should doubt him. Thats something between him and God not any of us. Just my opinion. The Catholic Church aint so bad either hello I was a Catholic schoolgirl =)

And I was a catholic school boy :wink: (never molested)

And it is bad lol.

My beef is not with Fedor it's high churches in general. I kind of hijacked the thread I think lol.

Sorry.

Miss Foxy
04-28-2009, 02:09 PM
And I was a catholic school boy :wink: (never molested)

And it is bad lol.

My beef is not with Fedor it's high churches in general. I kind of hijacked the thread I think lol.

Sorry.
No your opinion is yours..Im just trying to save the world today thats all.. :wink:

Crisco
04-28-2009, 02:11 PM
No your opinion is yours..Im just trying to save the world today thats all.. :wink:

Lol. I hear ya.

CAVEMAN
04-28-2009, 03:13 PM
One thing we can say about this interview is that Fedor is on the right track.......we should all pray that he comes to the saving knowledge of Jesus!:)

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 05:41 PM
1) That bothers me.

How does he know he has Divine permission to decree anything?

He has a duty to spread the gospel that is all. Who ordained him exactly? Another fallen man part of a church of fallen people.

The apostles and such where infact ordained by God Himself. It just seems disrespectful for one to assume they can become ordained because a priest in the higher pecking order says so and then all of sudden they have divine permission from God.

Jog on with that.

2) They should be preaching the gospel instead of all that other stuff. Their focus is completey wrong. They put more stock in their ritual then they do in testimony.

High churches are bad examples of Christians in my opinion. The catholic church originally drove me away with their ritual nonsense. The bible and God's grace brought me back not some guy with "divine permission".

3) Granted we all have divine permission to a degree because we are commanded to spread the Gospel but for someone to go through a ritual and then believe they are somehow more powerful in the eyes of God just seems wrong to me.
1) In many ways, once you are at that level, you are probably as perfect as any Apostle was. The leaders of the Church today, are supposed to have the same powers as those given by GOD to the Apostles.

The Apostles were able to raise the dead. (I assume recently dead, not ressurectional...think Lazarus, not Christ) They were given THAT sort of Divine Permission. The Roman Catholics take this VERY seriously. The Anglicans take it less seriously. I havent spent much time around enough Bishops to know...but London is DEFINATELY consecrated by GOD, absolutely...and I witnessed something very special at the consecration of Bishops. Trust me...a Bishop wont remain long if he hasnt got divine Permission.

2) Well different people have different ways of expressing Faith. I find the Low Church has about as much depth as a tin of tuna.

There is Zero mystery in the low church, there is thus zero depth, they spend forever arguing over tiny points in scripture, rather then seeing the bigger picture. Some of them dont follow the structure Saint Paul laid down. They have no liturgy thats fulfilling, infact they dont really have liturgy at all, they have modernized inclusive language text. They are often towards the liberal spectrum of the Church.

Their music is all done in (forgive me for saying) naff pop songs played by a weak worship team. The words are often crass, and a bit childlike. They have no particular tradition or continuity, and what is preached varies greatly.

Their Theology allows them to wear things wholly inappropriate to a church building, their theology is soley based on Christ as personal saviour to the exclusion of Christ as King. They dont show the respect of the Old Testament Priests, they dont take Communion seriously, everything is really informal.

I get nothing out of it. There is no structure, and no routine.

Each Style has its pit falls, and each its good emphasis. I feel much the same way about Low Church, that you feel about High Church...its bland, unfulfilling, and far to informal.

3) Do you think its wrong that your closest Church is on hallowed ground, and your home is not???

Does it worry you that people meet in a church for their services, rather then your humble abode?

does that make you feel like a Church is more important and powerful then your House?

See, its not about being more important, or more powerful, or better, its about being commissioned to do a role. Do you think the other Apostles felt lesser because Paul was chosen to go to the Heathen?? Did that make him more influential? More powerful?

No...GOD just gave him a special mission to do something.

GOD gives everyone a special mission. Everyone has a calling. This isnt about the Great Comission of spreading the news...its about the arena in which, specifically, GOD wants you to spread the news in.

For Richard Chartres it is the Cathedra in London.
For Matt Hughes it is The Octagon of the UFC

Both spread the news, but both are comissioned to do different things. Matt Hughes isnt comissioned as a Bishop. Richard Chartres is not Comissioned as a Christian Ambassidor to the UFC (which is effectively what Matt Hughes is) Is it right for Matt Hughes to say "how come I dont get to say "by Divine permission" and Richard Chartres does"....absolutely no more then Richard Chartres saying "how come I cant witness to the masses on TV in the sporting arena"

Its just different people have different tasks...its nothing to be jealous about. A calling IS a Divine Permission anyway...what else would you call a word from GOD telling you where he wants you to be. We just dont need to go and announce it...like the Bishop does :laugh:

Crisco
04-28-2009, 06:04 PM
Too long to address piece by piece but I will try.


I grew up in a Catholic church full of pomp and glitter. Priests hearing confession and passing out prayer like it's credit relief. This continued reciting of prayer could in a grey area be considered against God depending on how to take this passage from Matthew 6:7 "But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." I'm not saying it's directly related but it seems vain and useless to continue pre-written prayer over and over again ESPECIALLY those about Mary in order to seek forgiveness for ones sins. This simple practice alone makes me turn my cheek from the Catholic church. They treat faith in God as a game.

Just to lay a few more versus for thought regarding the High Church's.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Calling a priest "Father" is a direct insult to God.

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. If the pope continues apostolic line why does he need to abstain from marriage if Peter did not?

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus This shoots straight to crap the theory of confession through an "ordained" priest.

I won't go into transubstantiation because pretty much everyone here is in agreement that it can not be the actual blood and body of Christ.

The addition of purgatory is in direct conflict with Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Crisco
04-28-2009, 06:11 PM
I find few issues with the Anglican high church except for it's start but even great things can come out of horrid atrocities.

I prefer to keep all the pomp and glitter and rickita rackita out of my journy with Christ.

I need my bible and my prayer and the occasional grouping of believers.


For me personally, I don't need a high church with it's routines.

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 06:21 PM
Too long to address piece by piece but I will try.

1)
I grew up in a Catholic church full of pomp and glitter. Priests hearing confession and passing out prayer like it's credit relief. This continued reciting of prayer could in a grey area be considered against God depending on how to take this passage from

2) Matthew 6:7 "But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." I'm not saying it's directly related but it seems vain and useless to continue pre-written prayer over and over again ESPECIALLY those about Mary in order to seek forgiveness for ones sins. This simple practice alone makes me turn my cheek from the Catholic church. They treat faith in God as a game.

Just to lay a few more versus for thought regarding the High Church's.

3) Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Calling a priest "Father" is a direct insult to God.

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. If the pope continues apostolic line why does he need to abstain from marriage if Peter did not?

4) 1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus This shoots straight to crap the theory of confession through an "ordained" priest.

5) I won't go into transubstantiation because pretty much everyone here is in agreement that it can not be the actual blood and body of Christ.

6) The addition of purgatory is in direct conflict with Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
1) I grew up in the Low Church. Its hollow and empty, it doesnt satisfy me.

2) its not supposed to be a vein repetition. One could say that those who constantly skip over their sins, which cant be done when forced to voice them, are veinly repeating a prayer for forgiveness, because without acknowledgement of your sins...you cant be truely repentant.

Plus, the major problem with the low church is they stick to one tiny bit of the scriptures, they dont have a liturgical cycle, so some of them never face half of what the Bible has to offer. PERFECT Example was a few years ago, when the moment we reached Holy Week, Ricky went and put up a siggie about the ressurection.

WTF, so when does his church ever actually open their eyes to the fact that Christ also died!! The low church is free to leave difficult topics, the High Church is not. Everything is remembered throughout the year.

3) Never mind the Pope being Married...more fundemental is the fact that Christ never mentions anything about a lienage from Peter. He gave Peter a special gift...and suddenly all Peter's predecessors claim they have the gift to?

If so...why dont all the Popes agree on everything?? What gives a future Pope the right to over turn the ways of a past Pope? coz they bloody do. Sorry but its bollox :laugh:

4) I've already explained this one...must I repeat myself. The Priest isnt a middle man, he's a witness to what is going on between you and GOD.

5) see what I mean about Low Church people paying no value to Communion. :rolleyes:

6) The Romans removed Pergatory some time ago. (see Number 3)

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 06:25 PM
I find few issues with the Anglican high church except for it's start but even great things can come out of horrid atrocities.

I prefer to keep all the pomp and glitter and rickita rackita out of my journy with Christ.

I need my bible and my prayer and the occasional grouping of believers.


For me personally, I don't need a high church with it's routines.
:laugh: what you mean Henry effectively making himself Pope...well..its no more worse then Constantines pretend conversion for political reasons. :ninja:

I like the Ceremonial. I also need the routines and structure...I dont need the bland and shallow Low Church.

Canon Warner used to say "High Church, my Church, Low Church, No Church" :laugh:

Crisco
04-28-2009, 06:29 PM
:laugh: what you mean Henry effectively making himself Pope...well..its no more worse then Constantines pretend conversion for political reasons. :ninja:

I like the Ceremonial. I also need the routines and structure...I dont need the bland and shallow Low Church.

Canon Warner used to say "High Church, my Church, Low Church, No Church" :laugh:

I was more mean Henry using the formation of his new to effectively make it ok for him to execute a wife when she displeased him and then on top of that and stealing all the belongings of the church in England and then murdering catholics by the 1000's for their disloyalty to his new church.

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 06:58 PM
I was more mean Henry using the formation of his new to effectively make it ok for him to execute a wife when she displeased him and then on top of that and stealing all the belongings of the church in England and then murdering catholics by the 1000's for their disloyalty to his new church.
well...yes...all of that also I suppose.. :unsure:

Crisco
04-28-2009, 07:01 PM
well...yes...all of that also I suppose.. :unsure:

Hehe.

Miss Foxy
04-28-2009, 07:25 PM
I find few issues with the Anglican high church except for it's start but even great things can come out of horrid atrocities.

I prefer to keep all the pomp and glitter and rickita rackita out of my journy with Christ.

I need my bible and my prayer and the occasional grouping of believers.


For me personally, I don't need a high church with it's routines.
Thats exactly how I feel.

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 10:11 PM
Thats exactly how I feel.
:laugh: then dont attend one :)

Crisco
04-28-2009, 10:13 PM
:laugh: then dont attend one :)

WE WONT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


















:tongue0011:

Tyburn
04-28-2009, 11:47 PM
WE WONT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


















:tongue0011:
:laugh: GOOD :tongue0011:

Miss Foxy
04-29-2009, 04:57 AM
:laugh: then dont attend one :)
I didnt need you to tell me that. Who, what, where, when, and why I attend is frankly none of ya biz..Go feed your bird Dave..:)

Tyburn
04-29-2009, 12:34 PM
I didnt need you to tell me that. Who, what, where, when, and why I attend is frankly none of ya biz..Go feed your bird Dave..:)
dont be rude. And my Budgie has a name. He's called Jens :)

David_Banner
05-03-2009, 06:48 PM
It seems he gives more credit to this priest then he does to God.

A man that leads a person to god is worthy of praise, especially these days.

David_Banner
05-03-2009, 06:51 PM
]

It's gone beyond paying respect they have it narrowed to damn near idolatry.

You should spend more time bashing the people that hate you for being Christian and less time attacking those that are, but believe not like you.

Tyburn
05-03-2009, 07:05 PM
You should spend more time bashing the people that hate you for being Christian and less time attacking those that are, but believe not like you.
:blink:

Excuse me...but before you go any further...can we have a little background on yourself please?

Are you Roman Catholic, is that why you've taken offense?? Or what? Crisco is a low church evangelical, he's not condemning other Christians, he's just saying why he doesnt adhere to High Church dogma and tradition.

For some people its a useful tool, for others its not. This is about style in Christondom, its not about telling people they arent Christian, or bashing them. :)

David_Banner
05-03-2009, 07:18 PM
I take offense to in-fighting in all secs of christianity. I am a christian, beyond that, it doesnt matter.

I see a world outside that is growing harsher and harsher to those that believe in god and his son, jesis christ. It turns my stomach to see people bashing other christians and or gossiping like children about other peoples lives.

Tyburn
05-03-2009, 07:32 PM
I take offense to in-fighting in all secs of christianity. I am a christian, beyond that, it doesnt matter.

I see a world outside that is growing harsher and harsher to those that believe in god and his son, jesis christ. It turns my stomach to see people bashing other christians and or gossiping like children about other peoples lives.
Actually, it does matter.

For a Start, we dont refer to different parts of the Church as "Sects" they are Denominations. A sect is a Cult which draws on the themes of a major religion...for example, Mormonism, is a Sect of Christianity...that is to say its a large movement based on Christianity but not accepted as part of the Church. The JWs are another Sect, and Scientology, a Third Sect. However, things like Roman Catholics, Methodist, Baptists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Calvanists, Lutheran, Brethren...et al...those are NOT Sects...they are Denominations.

I'm worried by the fact you used the word "sect" instead of "denomination" that worries me, because calling a branch of the church a "Sect" is more offensive then anything you've complained about here so far...its usually done by people not inside the mainstream church.

So...if it doesnt matter, I'd like to know which Denomination you are from.

David_Banner
05-03-2009, 11:44 PM
Actually, it does matter.

For a Start, we dont refer to different parts of the Church as "Sects" they are Denominations. A sect is a Cult which draws on the themes of a major religion...for example, Mormonism, is a Sect of Christianity...that is to say its a large movement based on Christianity but not accepted as part of the Church. The JWs are another Sect, and Scientology, a Third Sect. However, things like Roman Catholics, Methodist, Baptists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Calvanists, Lutheran, Brethren...et al...those are NOT Sects...they are Denominations.

I'm worried by the fact you used the word "sect" instead of "denomination" that worries me, because calling a branch of the church a "Sect" is more offensive then anything you've complained about here so far...its usually done by people not inside the mainstream church.

So...if it doesnt matter, I'd like to know which Denomination you are from.

How you choose to understand or define sect matters little for the meaning speaks for itself.


sect (skt)
n.
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.


To lump Mormons in with Scientologist is comical. Do you beleive Mormons to be a cult, believing in Aliens much like scientologist?

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 12:34 AM
How you choose to understand or define sect matters little for the meaning speaks for itself.


sect (skt)
n.
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.


To lump Mormons in with Scientologist is comical. Do you beleive Mormons to be a cult, believing in Aliens much like scientologist?

Number Two explains the stance. Niether Roman Catholics, nor any part of the Evangelical Church has "separated" from Christianity. These are not Factions, they are parts of a whole.

Mormonism is excluded because it has another book of Scripture. So the Bible is only part of their believief. Scientology is excluded because its just...sheer silliness.

Now...Answer the Question. What Denomination are you from....I dont like that your avoiding this. You may not even be a regular church goer...which is fine...but I need to know your background. :)

Mormons...DO sing well though...and yes, if I ever visit Utah, I would go to the tabernackle to hear them sing indeed. I just wouldnt take part in the "Sharing" part of their service (:laugh: :blink: :ninja: ) They have a massive Temple in Salt Lake City, striking as it is, the Tabernakle is actually a smaller auditorium behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFV7E58wtRo (shows the Tab in situ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSvoi16uoqs (Agnus Dei set to Adagio)

I tell you the truth...I dont know what happens to people in Sects of Christianity that are close to being Denominations...I think Mormonism and JWs are reasonably close. I dont know if they are saved or not..I wouldnt bet on it...I would pray and treat them as if they were not, just to be on the safe side.

I had a very good friend who was a Mormon. I know Several, and know of, several others. Did you know Jeremy Horn is a Mormon :huh:

Neezar
05-04-2009, 01:36 AM
its supposed to be an outward sign of an inward manifestation :)

Why do you need an outward sign? Why would you get in the closet to pray but need an outward sign? :huh:

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 01:41 AM
Why do you need an outward sign? Why would you get in the closet to pray but need an outward sign? :huh:
Faith without works is dead...according to Saint James.

This is an outward expression of something going on inside...its a deliberate showing of repentance. Sure, its the inner repentance and GOD that forgives...but to confess ones sins, in public to another human being, and have them remind you of the Lords forgiveness...is quite powerful.

In the Anglican Church we dont do confession...but I dont have much of an issue with it...my priest might if I went and told him all my sins though :laugh:

Neezar
05-04-2009, 02:08 AM
Faith without works is dead...according to Saint James.

This is an outward expression of something going on inside...its a deliberate showing of repentance. Sure, its the inner repentance and GOD that forgives...but to confess ones sins, in public to another human being, and have them remind you of the Lords forgiveness...is quite powerful.



That is giving the glory to man. It should be Him that gets all the glory. You should only depend on the Lord's rewards - not your own, not other humans.



And to the faith without works comment, I'm not sure that chanting is considered a work. :laugh:

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 02:11 AM
That is giving the glory to man. It should be Him that gets all the glory. You should only depend on the Lord's rewards - not your own, not other humans.



And to the faith without works comment, I'm not sure that chanting is considered a work. :laugh:

Its not giving any glory to man...the priest in merely a witness.

Thats like saying someone who shares theire problems on this site in a prayer request, is giving glory to man. Its bollox...one is simply expressing what they could do in their heart, in public.

as for chanting...chanting?? Sinse when do Roman Catholics Chant :blink:

Neezar
05-04-2009, 02:19 AM
Its not giving any glory to man...the priest in merely a witness.

Thats like saying someone who shares theire problems on this site in a prayer request, is giving glory to man. Its bollox...one is simply expressing what they could do in their heart, in public.

as for chanting...chanting?? Sinse when do Roman Catholics Chant :blink:

If you confess your sins to God then He forgives you. If you are feeling the need for something else, such as let's say the confirmation from man then you doing something wrong, somewhere. Much different than asking for prayers.

To me, when you are repeating something over and over (i.e. Hail Marys) then you are chanting.

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 02:24 AM
If you confess your sins to God then He forgives you. If you are feeling the need for something else, such as let's say the confirmation from man then you doing something wrong, somewhere. Much different than asking for prayers.

To me, when you are repeating something over and over (i.e. Hail Marys) then you are chanting.
Its just a collect. I wouldnt repeat it over and over again...I think thats a throw back to when the Roman Catholic Church believed in selling penances...the Romans have changed alot of their belieifs in Vatican Two.

Chanting :laugh:

I feel like I chant on here having to repeat the same thing over and over :rolleyes:

Neezar
05-04-2009, 02:30 AM
Its just a collect. I wouldnt repeat it over and over again...I think thats a throw back to when the Roman Catholic Church believed in selling penances...the Romans have changed alot of their belieifs in Vatican Two.

Chanting :laugh:

I feel like I chant on here having to repeat the same thing over and over :rolleyes:

:huh: You'd better do as the ordained priest tells you and say the Hail Marys the designated amount of times or you won't be forgiven.

Neezar
05-04-2009, 02:31 AM
On a side note -

I had a woman tell me about the catholic faith, "Yeah, but the priest can't forgive you for the big things like murder."



:laugh:

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 10:51 AM
:huh: You'd better do as the ordained priest tells you and say the Hail Marys the designated amount of times or you won't be forgiven.
Thats Pre-Vatican Two, Denise. They dont do that so much anymore. The priest might suggest some helpful liturgy, but its got nothing to do with forgiveness, just to help you re-establish good habits :)

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 11:02 AM
On a side note -

I had a woman tell me about the catholic faith, "Yeah, but the priest can't forgive you for the big things like murder."



:laugh:
See The Romans post Vatican Two are much better then the originial Roman Catholics.

Rome used to think it had a complete monopoly...if you worshiped in a denomination outside of Rome they would say you werent Christian. If you wanted forgiveness you had to buy penance from your priest, and you had to kinda do punitive prayerage to make good. If you werent burried in a Catholic Church then you didnt go to heaven.

Thats the trick the Pope played on King Henry to try and make him reconsider Anglicanism. He told his Priests in England to STOP with the burrial. Thus denying any citizen who died entrance into Heaven.

The Keys to the Kingdom...all hogwash, sinse the Keys were only given to Peter, not to his successors....Basically, the King told them politely where to go, and public opinion changed. The Roman Churches extreme ideology was abandoned as protestantism began its sweep in Europe and the British Empire took off, de-catholicising the nations it came across

In the space of Three Hundred years the Roman Church went from Complete Authority and control over life and death in Christianity, to a Hated symbol of antiquity, superstition and poorly interpreted Scripture. They Denined Protestantism, and the people didnt care, The Pope Spoke, and the Roman Catholics didnt even listen to him. It was too little too late, when the Roman Church finally began to cave in, the Curtain in the Church Sanctuary was taken down, the Catholics were allowed to receive communion...but it was too late. On top of that the Catholics came under fire for their unchristian ways of converting in, thier aggressive failiures against Islam, and finally their shunning of The Enlightenment.

Rome, was over as conceived by everyone from the Third Century AD to the 18th Century. In the mid 20th Century the Leaders of a more Liberal Roman Catholic Church basically changed the majority of their naughtness in a council called Vatican Two.

You might like to know that the present Pope, Benedict is doing everything he can to try and REVERSE Vatican Two...but even the Roman Catholics would rather be under strictly GOD, then the Church :laugh:

David_Banner
05-04-2009, 03:00 PM
Number Two explains the stance. Niether Roman Catholics, nor any part of the Evangelical Church has "separated" from Christianity. These are not Factions, they are parts of a whole.

Mormonism is excluded because it has another book of Scripture. So the Bible is only part of their believief. Scientology is excluded because its just...sheer silliness.

Now...Answer the Question. What Denomination are you from....I dont like that your avoiding this. You may not even be a regular church goer...which is fine...but I need to know your background. :)

Mormons...DO sing well though...and yes, if I ever visit Utah, I would go to the tabernackle to hear them sing indeed. I just wouldnt take part in the "Sharing" part of their service (:laugh: :blink: :ninja: ) They have a massive Temple in Salt Lake City, striking as it is, the Tabernakle is actually a smaller auditorium behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFV7E58wtRo (shows the Tab in situ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSvoi16uoqs (Agnus Dei set to Adagio)

I tell you the truth...I dont know what happens to people in Sects of Christianity that are close to being Denominations...I think Mormonism and JWs are reasonably close. I dont know if they are saved or not..I wouldnt bet on it...I would pray and treat them as if they were not, just to be on the safe side.

I had a very good friend who was a Mormon. I know Several, and know of, several others. Did you know Jeremy Horn is a Mormon :huh:


I was raised Baptist but I consider myself these days a Mormon. I still attend Church with my wife but I do go to Mormon Church a few times a month.

JW and Mormons have nothing in common. JWs do not beleive in Military service and are against it. As well, they believe saluting the American flag or standing for the national anthem are forms of idolatry. They are also against blood transfusions for the sick, breaking any of these rules will lead to expulsion from the church. None of this is in line with Mormon faith.

Just like any other "denomination :) " of Christinity, the path to heaven as a Mormon is led by Jesus Christ. You must be saved ect. The bigger sticking point with Mormons is they beleive Jesus traveled the world spreading the message of God. I'd also point out that Mormon finance and Banking practices are more in line with the Jews haha

Miss Foxy
05-04-2009, 03:14 PM
I take offense to in-fighting in all secs of christianity. I am a christian, beyond that, it doesnt matter.

I see a world outside that is growing harsher and harsher to those that believe in god and his son, jesis christ. It turns my stomach to see people bashing other christians and or gossiping like children about other peoples lives.
Yup!!:)

Crisco
05-04-2009, 04:37 PM
Yup!!:)

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


I call out the Catholics because I feel the things they mixed into Christianity are heresy.

You cannot claim to be a Christian church yet openly oppose biblical scripture.

As a Christian it is my job to call out and rebuke false teachings otherwise people are learning these unbiblical teachings and are never the wiser to it.


I'm sorry if you disagree with this

and I'm sorry if this offends you but I don't feel the mormons are biblical either. The mere existance of the book of mormon is a clear indication that you folks are going about it the wrong way.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


Your "prophet" is not of God and niether is your "holy" book.

Put the book of Mormon in your closet and never touch it again. Go into your room open your bible and read and pray to your GOD for anwers. Everything you would ever want to know is found in him.

Bless you brother and again sorry if I was too pointed but we all have our duties. You want everyone to love everything everyone says and I want everyone to be true to God(as impossible as it is we should still try)

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 05:00 PM
I was raised Baptist but I consider myself these days a Mormon. I still attend Church with my wife but I do go to Mormon Church a few times a month.

JW and Mormons have nothing in common. JWs do not beleive in Military service and are against it. As well, they believe saluting the American flag or standing for the national anthem are forms of idolatry. They are also against blood transfusions for the sick, breaking any of these rules will lead to expulsion from the church. None of this is in line with Mormon faith.

Just like any other "denomination :) " of Christinity, the path to heaven as a Mormon is led by Jesus Christ. You must be saved ect. The bigger sticking point with Mormons is they beleive Jesus traveled the world spreading the message of God. I'd also point out that Mormon finance and Banking practices are more in line with the Jews haha

The issue I have with Mormons is about the way that came to light.

Isnt it through a Mr Smith, who read some tablets using crystals to write his book of Mormon...but then tablet and crystals dissapeared?? Isnt the writing of Smith considered as Scripture...if so THATS the problem I have.

I dont care where they believe Jesus went before his Ministry or after his ressurection, because I dont think it matters, many say that he went to India and Asia, many also think Tribes of Jews settled in North America, and that Jesus visited the United States...some even believe that he came to England (hence why a small band of christians were found at Glastonbury Abbey WAY before Christianity was brought to English Shores by Rome...gave them quite a Fright I believe :laugh: )

Who knows...and who cares...its not important. Only what is written in the Scriptures are important...the rest is possible, sometimes probable...but not really life changing...except for the Mormons it is...and that my boggle I guess.

JWs I dont know much about...except when we speak of "Cults" and "sects" you usually think of a small group...well Mormonism, and JWs are not small...they might not be Denominational in belief...but they would rival most denominations in sheer size...thats why they are so well known...their numbers

JWs try and claim that Jesus isnt GOD..they say that its a missinterpretation, he might be Holy, you might need saving, but He isnt GOD...clearly that is too far. Mormons dont actually dissagree with any scriptures...they just faff about with some bizzare addition, which, whilst it doesnt contridict, so I hear...might be considered nothing more then an apokraphal text. It largely depends on what they think the Book of Mormon is. A helpful text...or Scripture...if they think its Scripture then they are not with us. :unsure-1:

Miss Foxy
05-04-2009, 06:38 PM
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


I call out the Catholics because I feel the things they mixed into Christianity are heresy.

You cannot claim to be a Christian church yet openly oppose biblical scripture.

As a Christian it is my job to call out and rebuke false teachings otherwise people are learning these unbiblical teachings and are never the wiser to it.


I'm sorry if you disagree with this

and I'm sorry if this offends you but I don't feel the mormons are biblical either. The mere existance of the book of mormon is a clear indication that you folks are going about it the wrong way.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


Your "prophet" is not of God and niether is your "holy" book.

Put the book of Mormon in your closet and never touch it again. Go into your room open your bible and read and pray to your GOD for anwers. Everything you would ever want to know is found in him.

Bless you brother and again sorry if I was too pointed but we all have our duties. You want everyone to love everything everyone says and I want everyone to be true to God(as impossible as it is we should still try)
I am neither Mormon nor Catholic so this does not apply to me. I believe its how people say or type things. I disagree with a lot that the Catholic Church teaches I can say that respectfully. I think what we both meant was how people put things. If one can disagree tastefully its no biggie, but its when it becomes rude where I get turned off.

Miss Foxy
05-04-2009, 06:40 PM
The issue I have with Mormons is about the way that came to light.

Isnt it through a Mr Smith, who read some tablets using crystals to write his book of Mormon...but then tablet and crystals dissapeared?? Isnt the writing of Smith considered as Scripture...if so THATS the problem I have.

I dont care where they believe Jesus went before his Ministry or after his ressurection, because I dont think it matters, many say that he went to India and Asia, many also think Tribes of Jews settled in North America, and that Jesus visited the United States...some even believe that he came to England (hence why a small band of christians were found at Glastonbury Abbey WAY before Christianity was brought to English Shores by Rome...gave them quite a Fright I believe :laugh: )

Who knows...and who cares...its not important. Only what is written in the Scriptures are important...the rest is possible, sometimes probable...but not really life changing...except for the Mormons it is...and that my boggle I guess.

JWs I dont know much about...except when we speak of "Cults" and "sects" you usually think of a small group...well Mormonism, and JWs are not small...they might not be Denominational in belief...but they would rival most denominations in sheer size...thats why they are so well known...their numbers

JWs try and claim that Jesus isnt GOD..they say that its a missinterpretation, he might be Holy, you might need saving, but He isnt GOD...clearly that is too far. Mormons dont actually dissagree with any scriptures...they just faff about with some bizzare addition, which, whilst it doesnt contridict, so I hear...might be considered nothing more then an apokraphal text. It largely depends on what they think the Book of Mormon is. A helpful text...or Scripture...if they think its Scripture then they are not with us. :unsure-1:
LDS are some of the nicest people ever! I think sometimes they are perceived as bad, because of the early ideas of the church. However speaking in terms of the bible I do not agree with the thought of an acting prophet and the book of Mormon. As far as JW's I have had several unfruitful events with members I witnessed radicalism ways and was told I was going to burn in hell.. So being the nice gal that I am there were literally 8 of em on the lawn I said one moment while I get my reading glasses and I went in the garage and set the sprinkler timer on...!!

Crisco
05-04-2009, 07:00 PM
I am neither Mormon nor Catholic so this does not apply to me. I believe its how people say or type things. I disagree with a lot that the Catholic Church teaches I can say that respectfully. I think what we both meant was how people put things. If one can disagree tastefully its no biggie, but its when it becomes rude where I get turned off.

I agree. There are ways to present your case and ways to not.

If there is one thing I learned from Nate it is that some people need a firm talking to and they may not realize it right after you give it to them.


When dealing with scripture it needs both a good cop and bad cop approach. Most people cannot be reached by totally scaring them or totally cuddeling them.

I have a tough time when it comes to non-biblical faith as I was raised catholic and that church is what drove me from God. It wasn't until I found this forum and started learning the bible that I was brought back.

Church's that teach non-biblical things are dangerous to salvation and that's why I get peeved :)

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 07:35 PM
When dealing with scripture it needs both a good cop and bad cop approach. Most people cannot be reached by totally scaring them or totally cuddeling them.


pity its always the same people playing the same parts :mellow:

breaking down is far easier then buidling up, but somehow it gets a lot more credit :ninja:

Crisco
05-04-2009, 07:55 PM
pity its always the same people playing the same parts :mellow:

breaking down is far easier then buidling up, but somehow it gets a lot more credit :ninja:

It's hard to build someone up when their faith is in false doctrine. How do you nicely tell someone that what they believe is false and what they have been taught is against God's word. The best way is with conviction so they know you are being serious and not crapping off hand remarks out of your mouth.


and it is not the same people playing the same parts or atleast not in my experience.

I've played both sides many times on this forum depending on what the situation calls for.

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 08:21 PM
It's hard to build someone up when their faith is in false doctrine. How do you nicely tell someone that what they believe is false and what they have been taught is against God's word. The best way is with conviction so they know you are being serious and not crapping off hand remarks out of your mouth.


and it is not the same people playing the same parts or atleast not in my experience.

I've played both sides many times on this forum depending on what the situation calls for.
nevermind :unsure-1:

Crisco
05-04-2009, 08:31 PM
nevermind :unsure-1:

Well no don't quit on me Dave... Tell me how you feel... I'm not here just to yell at people and hit them with bibles I'm here to listen too and learn as much as possible lol.

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 09:00 PM
Well no don't quit on me Dave... Tell me how you feel... I'm not here just to yell at people and hit them with bibles I'm here to listen too and learn as much as possible lol.
havent you ever felt like, just for once, you'd like to be what you always wanted to be, and get the feedback you've always craved.

Saint Paul says that different people have different skills and tallents, and that there is no "better" there is just different. He likens it to a body and different organs that do different jobs...but who wants to be an anus :sad:

Crisco
05-04-2009, 09:13 PM
havent you ever felt like, just for once, you'd like to be what you always wanted to be, and get the feedback you've always craved.

Saint Paul says that different people have different skills and tallents, and that there is no "better" there is just different. He likens it to a body and different organs that do different jobs...but who wants to be an anus :sad:

I feel like that everyday except for that feedback part.

I love getting unexpected feedback it makes interaction with others worth having.

The whole point I've been trying to make Dave is within my arguements of faith I'm trying to rely on the bible for my answers and rebuttles. There is no greater truth then God's word.

Many times I have added the phrase I believe and I feel but I don't base them on personal beliefs I base them on the bible.

My distaste for the catholic church, the mormons, the Jehova's comes from my understanding of Gods true word and these people represent what God tells us to rebuke and call out for their heresy.

I have no ill will or meanness in my spirit or heart when I say the things I do to these folks... Only pain. It hurts me to see people learn false teachings because I've been there... I've seen what it did to my soul.

and THIS PLACE this forum changed that for me. People like You, Nate, Ricky, Boomer, Chuck, Neezar they came together and some of them for lack of a better term bitch smacked me and some sat me down and nursed me through it. I NEEDED BOTH.

I owe this place and I owe the grace of God for giving me a chance again. If I don't use that to try and help others I've done nothing but insult those people.

David_Banner
05-04-2009, 09:13 PM
The issue I have with Mormons is about the way that came to light.

Isnt it through a Mr Smith, who read some tablets using crystals to write his book of Mormon...but then tablet and crystals dissapeared?? Isnt the writing of Smith considered as Scripture...if so THATS the problem I have.

I dont care where they believe Jesus went before his Ministry or after his ressurection, because I dont think it matters, many say that he went to India and Asia, many also think Tribes of Jews settled in North America, and that Jesus visited the United States...some even believe that he came to England (hence why a small band of christians were found at Glastonbury Abbey WAY before Christianity was brought to English Shores by Rome...gave them quite a Fright I believe :laugh: )

Who knows...and who cares...its not important. Only what is written in the Scriptures are important...the rest is possible, sometimes probable...but not really life changing...except for the Mormons it is...and that my boggle I guess.

JWs I dont know much about...except when we speak of "Cults" and "sects" you usually think of a small group...well Mormonism, and JWs are not small...they might not be Denominational in belief...but they would rival most denominations in sheer size...thats why they are so well known...their numbers

JWs try and claim that Jesus isnt GOD..they say that its a missinterpretation, he might be Holy, you might need saving, but He isnt GOD...clearly that is too far. Mormons dont actually dissagree with any scriptures...they just faff about with some bizzare addition, which, whilst it doesnt contridict, so I hear...might be considered nothing more then an apokraphal text. It largely depends on what they think the Book of Mormon is. A helpful text...or Scripture...if they think its Scripture then they are not with us. :unsure-1:


The book of Mormon is basically a recounting of the teachings of Jesus Christ on his journey through the Americas as well as his teachings to the Nephi after his reserrection. Present day Mormons view Smiths work as witness to Gods Will, and yes, Smith said once the translations were over, he returned the gold tablates to the Angel Moroni.

As with the Nohas Ark or the two Stone tablets the 10 Commandments were written on, does the lack of their presence make their content/spiritual signifigance any less real?

Also, the Mormons use the Bible (Old/New testament) in their teachings. Mormons dont read exclusively from the Book of Mormon, although it is a big part of the Church, Mormons believe the Bible to be divine.

Crisco
05-04-2009, 09:17 PM
The book of Mormon is basically a recounting of the teachings of Jesus Christ on his journey through the Americas as well as his teachings to the Nephi after his reserrection. Present day Mormons view Smiths work as witness to Gods Will, and yes, Smith said once the translations were over, he returned the gold tablates to the Angel Moroni.

As with the Nohas Ark or the two Stone tablets the 10 Commandments were written on, does the lack of their presence make their content/spiritual signifigance any less real?

Also, the Mormons use the Bible (Old/New testament) in their teachings. Mormons dont read exclusively from the Book of Mormon, although it is a big part of the Church, Mormons believe the Bible to be divine.

If the bible is divine then how can mormons justify the book of mormon or even the teachings of Joseph Smith...

Again for thought..

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

and also

Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

David_Banner
05-04-2009, 09:26 PM
The best way is with conviction so they know you are being serious and not crapping off hand remarks out of your mouth.


Ive heard that before.. A guy I know runs a Walmart Distribution Warehouse here and his theory is if you run over people and show no sympathy that you will win peoples respect and maintain production. 12 years later, he is hated, struggles with production and just received word his Warehouse is slated for downsizing and or closure. He's also real big in the Church too, which is really the silver lining in this story haha.

Crisco
05-04-2009, 09:29 PM
Ive heard that before.. A guy I know runs a Walmart Distribution Warehouse here and his theory is if you run over people and show no sympathy that you will win peoples respect and maintain production. 12 years later, he is hated, struggles with production and just received word his Warehouse is slated for downsizing and or closure. He's also real big in the Church too, which is really the silver lining in this story haha.

That is a completely different thing then what I am doing ore relating to you.

Your avoiding the bible and that shows that you deep down know you are following false teachings.

I'm sorry if I upset you but it had to be done. I'm trying to help you. I don't care if you like or respect me. If What I'm saying to you here makes you think and restudy your faith and open the bible and give yourself to christ I would let you spit on me a thousand times in a public forum.

I won't push you any further I just hope you consider what I've been saying and really pray and give it serious thought.

God bless brother.

David_Banner
05-04-2009, 09:33 PM
If the bible is divine then how can mormons justify the book of mormon or even the teachings of Joseph Smith...

Again for thought..

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

and also

Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


Mormons believe the book of Mormon to be a continuation of the word of Jesus Christ and the Bible. They also believe over time, the Bible passed through many hands and lost much. They still see it as a holy book, just not complete. It is not viewed as "other gospel" because it is believed to be one with the Bible.

Crisco
05-04-2009, 09:34 PM
Mormons believe the book of Mormon to be a continuation of the word of Jesus Christ and the Bible. They also believe over time, the Bible passed through many hands and lost much. They still see it as a holy book, just not complete. It is not viewed as "other gospel" because it is believed to be one with the Bible.

Which is exactly what the bible warns against brother...

You cannot add to the gospel.


6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

David_Banner
05-04-2009, 09:38 PM
That is a completely different thing then what I am doing ore relating to you.

Your avoiding the bible and that shows that you deep down know you are following false teachings.

I'm sorry if I upset you but it had to be done. I'm trying to help you. I don't care if you like or respect me. If What I'm saying to you here makes you think and restudy your faith and open the bible and give yourself to christ I would let you spit on me a thousand times in a public forum.

I won't push you any further I just hope you consider what I've been saying and really pray and give it serious thought.

God bless brother.


I honestly appreciate what you have to say.

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 10:27 PM
The book of Mormon is basically a recounting of the teachings of Jesus Christ on his journey through the Americas as well as his teachings to the Nephi after his reserrection. Present day Mormons view Smiths work as witness to Gods Will, and yes, Smith said once the translations were over, he returned the gold tablates to the Angel Moroni.

As with the Nohas Ark or the two Stone tablets the 10 Commandments were written on, does the lack of their presence make their content/spiritual signifigance any less real?

Also, the Mormons use the Bible (Old/New testament) in their teachings. Mormons dont read exclusively from the Book of Mormon, although it is a big part of the Church, Mormons believe the Bible to be divine.

Noahs ark rotted away, although certain books think the ship is still encrusted on a mountain side and the proof is staggering.

The Stone Tablets, just like the Ark havent gone anywhere, they still exist...and not only that, they will be found, for the Temple will be incomplete without the Ark of the Covernant (the stones are inside the ark)

The problem is we have nothing but the say so of this "smith" that there even was a tablet and there were crystals. How do you know Smith didnt just invent it himself? I mean crystals and stones which appeared then dissapeared is a little far fetched dont you think?

If they consider it Scripture then they are heretics beyond the scope of the Christian Church. There is no "continuation" of the Canon. The Scripture has been closed for Centuries...you cant just add a whole book by some random guy called smith...who doesnt even have the original...that would be like me writing a a book and adding it to Scripture....also...Mormons are mistaken if they think there are holes in the Bible. Its perfect. Its not lacking in anyway. It doesnt need an appendix, and it doesnt need an omission.

Even the Roman Catholics are prepared to believe the Apokraphal Texts are NOT on a level with Scripture....if the Mormons consider Smith more then apokraphal...they are outside the boundaries of the Christondom

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 10:39 PM
I feel like that everyday except for that feedback part.

I love getting unexpected feedback it makes interaction with others worth having.

The whole point I've been trying to make Dave is within my arguements of faith I'm trying to rely on the bible for my answers and rebuttles. There is no greater truth then God's word.

Many times I have added the phrase I believe and I feel but I don't base them on personal beliefs I base them on the bible.

My distaste for the catholic church, the mormons, the Jehova's comes from my understanding of Gods true word and these people represent what God tells us to rebuke and call out for their heresy.

I have no ill will or meanness in my spirit or heart when I say the things I do to these folks... Only pain. It hurts me to see people learn false teachings because I've been there... I've seen what it did to my soul.

and THIS PLACE this forum changed that for me. People like You, Nate, Ricky, Boomer, Chuck, Neezar they came together and some of them for lack of a better term bitch smacked me and some sat me down and nursed me through it. I NEEDED BOTH.

I owe this place and I owe the grace of God for giving me a chance again. If I don't use that to try and help others I've done nothing but insult those people.

I wasnt really thinking of you when I was talking about a truth sayer. It was more a concept. I also wasnt just thinking of this forum, I was thinking of other places I know at work.

For a brief moment you interacted with me on a level below that which is safe guarded by my happy pills. See...I dont take my medication when I dont work. sometimes...not always, but sometimes...particularly on a Monday...if you say something that echos, you might see a tiny outpour of grief....I have come to recognise if I say nothing, the feeling and well seals itself within about forty moments. its like an emotional outburst...it passes, you break the ice and for a moment or two the ocean bubbles up through the crack, then it frezzes over again

Think of Mondays as being my day where there is the potential for me to act like a hormonal woman, if i'm tiered, or if the wrong thing is said to me LMAO :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Miss Foxy
05-04-2009, 10:40 PM
I wasnt really thinking of you when I was talking about a truth sayer. It was more a concept. I also wasnt just thinking of this forum, I was thinking of other places I know at work.

For a brief moment you interacted with me on a level below that which is safe guarded by my happy pills. See...I dont take my medication when I dont work. sometimes...not always, but sometimes...particularly on a Monday...if you say something that echos, you might see a tiny outpour of grief....I have come to recognise if I say nothing, the feeling and well seals itself within about forty moments. its like an emotional outburst...it passes, you break the ice and for a moment or two the ocean bubbles up through the crack, then it frezzes over again

Think of Mondays as being my day where there is the potential for me to act like a hormonal woman, if i'm tiered, or if the wrong thing is said to me LMAO :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I was thinking it.....but you said it!!:laugh:

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 10:44 PM
I was thinking it.....but you said it!!:laugh:
:laugh: its true. Its not every week...but it is occasionally when the pills have been out of my system long enough for me to feel a little low, that I can tear and rupture a chasm.

Its along the same line as hormones...except, you act like it naturally because of chemicals in your blood, i'm acting like it unnaturally because of chemicals that have suddenly dissapeared from my blood....it just knocks you out of kilter a little.

finally...we have something in common :happydancing:

Miss Foxy
05-04-2009, 10:57 PM
:laugh: its true. Its not every week...but it is occasionally when the pills have been out of my system long enough for me to feel a little low, that I can tear and rupture a chasm.

Its along the same line as hormones...except, you act like it naturally because of chemicals in your blood, i'm acting like it unnaturally because of chemicals that have suddenly dissapeared from my blood....it just knocks you out of kilter a little.

finally...we have something in common :happydancing:
I know the feeling Dave so I hope you feel better and don't bash anyones skull on a brick wall :punch: just kidding in all honesty hope you feel better take a bubble bath that helps..:wink:

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 11:10 PM
I know the feeling Dave so I hope you feel better and don't bash anyones skull on a brick wall :punch: just kidding in all honesty hope you feel better take a bubble bath that helps..:wink:
:unsure: let me tell you about my bathroom

alright so you go down these three little steps into a bathroom. The windows have cracks in them, so the place is always about as cold as outside. Firstly, the window frames themselves are old and painted shut, but there is two holes big enough to drop a coin through between the upper and lower frames of the windows. The glass is cracked also, this happened due to pressure when several years ago the roof caved in over the bath tub, down came the plasterboard after leaking due to a build up of water.

The tub has been painted, but the paint is coming off, so you get like bits of white paint stuck to you if you sit in the tub...I think that might also have been something that they either painted after the roof came down to try and fix the tub to look okay...or they used something to clean the tub after the roof collapsed and now the paints stripping off.

The little boiler wont work in the cold weather period. So...if you want warm water...you have to think ketle...and its a bloody big bath...by the time you've finished boiling the water, the water in the bath will have cooled...tried it once... :laugh:

Then there is actually no shower...the shower accessory plugs into the sink taps because they wont fit the bath taps, so water gets all over the floor, and if you want to change the tempriture from luke warm to cold...you have to get out of the bath to reach the sink taps, or risk breaking your neck trying to reach from the tub.

and of course there is the fact from time to time the roof still leaks, so the roof space is probably filling with water...and I have no intention of being in the bath when the roof over the tub decides to plop

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm so not making this up neither...I live in near poverty :unsure-1: (I get round this by not washing hahahahaha...no I'm kidding... thursday, saturday, sunday, monday, I use my parents and either shower or have a bath, tuesday, wed, I have a shower at the pool....Friday...I dont. I do it the old fashioned way, wash using a sink instead of a shower.)

Miss Foxy
05-04-2009, 11:20 PM
:unsure: let me tell you about my bathroom

alright so you go down these three little steps into a bathroom. The windows have cracks in them, so the place is always about as cold as outside. Firstly, the window frames themselves are old and painted shut, but there is two holes big enough to drop a coin through between the upper and lower frames of the windows. The glass is cracked also, this happened due to pressure when several years ago the roof caved in over the bath tub, down came the plasterboard after leaking due to a build up of water.

The tub has been painted, but the paint is coming off, so you get like bits of white paint stuck to you if you sit in the tub...I think that might also have been something that they either painted after the roof came down to try and fix the tub to look okay...or they used something to clean the tub after the roof collapsed and now the paints stripping off.

The little boiler wont work in the cold weather period. So...if you want warm water...you have to think ketle...and its a bloody big bath...by the time you've finished boiling the water, the water in the bath will have cooled...tried it once... :laugh:

Then there is actually no shower...the shower accessory plugs into the sink taps because they wont fit the bath taps, so water gets all over the floor, and if you want to change the tempriture from luke warm to cold...you have to get out of the bath to reach the sink taps, or risk breaking your neck trying to reach from the tub.

and of course there is the fact from time to time the roof still leaks, so the roof space is probably filling with water...and I have no intention of being in the bath when the roof over the tub decides to plop

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm so not making this up neither...I live in near poverty :unsure-1: (I get round this by not washing hahahahaha...no I'm kidding... thursday, saturday, sunday, monday, I use my parents and either shower or have a bath, tuesday, wed, I have a shower at the pool....Friday...I dont. I do it the old fashioned way, wash using a sink instead of a shower.)
Poor Dave :sad:

Max
05-04-2009, 11:25 PM
The problem is we have nothing but the say so of this "smith" that there even was a tablet and there were crystals. How do you know Smith didnt just invent it himself? I mean crystals and stones which appeared then dissapeared is a little far fetched dont you think?
Dave some people would say that the story of Jesus is a little far fetched. I mean how many kids do you know who's moms are virgins and who died only to come back to life a few days later and go visit friends.

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 11:26 PM
Poor Dave :sad:
:ashamed: on the bright side. I do have my own flat...which is all mine. Yeah the bathroom sucks....and yes there is no washing machine...but my parents live less then ten mins walk and they have a lovely bathroom, and a lovely washing machine, and a tumbler.

okay so I dont have good running hot water...but a ketle will do for the washing up...and okay I have no central heating...but I have a fabulously warm night gown, I have a thermal blanket, and I have some slippers that are like boots and go up to the knees

I live alone...and have no children...but I have my pig and my bird that are my dependants...and I have all you on this forum who I can talk to.

I manage :happydancing:

Tyburn
05-04-2009, 11:31 PM
Dave some people would say that the story of Jesus is a little far fetched. I mean how many kids do you know who's moms are virgins and who died only to come back to life a few days later and go visit friends.
If you believe in the spiritual realm at all, neither of those things are far fetched. If you believe in life after death ressurection isnt that far fetched.

but a guy who gets given a tablet and crystals by an angel, who translates it, and then gives the tablet and crystals back, and then sets his book as scripture....At least in Islam, The Prophet claims to have been given the words by GOD...I dont believe it...but its not far-fetched, its quite possible, because GOD did appear to certain old Testament prophets and do exactly that.

Max
05-04-2009, 11:43 PM
If you believe in the spiritual realm at all, neither of those things are far fetched. If you believe in life after death ressurection isnt that far fetched.

but a guy who gets given a tablet and crystals by an angel, who translates it, and then gives the tablet and crystals back, and then sets his book as scripture....At least in Islam, The Prophet claims to have been given the words by GOD...I dont believe it...but its not far-fetched, its quite possible, because GOD did appear to certain old Testament prophets and do exactly that.
Are you telling me that God cant create a tablet and some crystals and give them to some guy only to take those things away once the guy is done using them? Im not saying thats where the book really came from, all I am saying is that the idea being far fetched is not a reason to not believe. Neither is the fact that no one has found the crystals or tablet. I have never met Jesus but I know he existed. I have never seen the burning bush but I know it was there at some point. I have never seen the 10 commandments or the Holy Grail but I know it existed. Jest because you have not seen something does not mean it never existed.

Tyburn
05-05-2009, 12:20 AM
Are you telling me that God cant create a tablet and some crystals and give them to some guy only to take those things away once the guy is done using them? Im not saying thats where the book really came from, all I am saying is that the idea being far fetched is not a reason to not believe. Neither is the fact that no one has found the crystals or tablet. I have never met Jesus but I know he existed. I have never seen the burning bush but I know it was there at some point. I have never seen the 10 commandments or the Holy Grail but I know it existed. Jest because you have not seen something does not mean it never existed.
There is nothing in that scenario that brings Glory to GOD for a start

Secondly, Host dont usually act like the one in the scenario

thirdly, I doubt you'll find the name of that Host in any other Christian text.

The point is, that it sounds like a made up story doesnt it. It doesnt sound like it really happend. WHY the crystals and tablet?

Max
05-05-2009, 01:17 AM
There is nothing in that scenario that brings Glory to GOD for a start

Secondly, Host dont usually act like the one in the scenario

thirdly, I doubt you'll find the name of that Host in any other Christian text.

The point is, that it sounds like a made up story doesnt it. It doesnt sound like it really happend. WHY the crystals and tablet?
It does sound like a made up story but so does a lot of the Bible. Im not saying you have to believe that the story is true, I'm just saying that the story being far fetched is not a reason to say it is false.

que
05-05-2009, 02:52 AM
crystals? stones? ark of the covenants? for a second there i could have sworn this thread turned into a discussion about the kingdom of the crystal stones. i mean, skull. now all we need are some aliens and the marx brothers

Tyburn
05-05-2009, 01:19 PM
It does sound like a made up story but so does a lot of the Bible. Im not saying you have to believe that the story is true, I'm just saying that the story being far fetched is not a reason to say it is false.
No but a very good reason to say its false is that the Canon is closed, so it cant be scripture. If its not scripture...who, frankly, cares :huh:

Crisco
05-05-2009, 01:37 PM
It does sound like a made up story but so does a lot of the Bible. Im not saying you have to believe that the story is true, I'm just saying that the story being far fetched is not a reason to say it is false.

If you believe in what the bible says it's impossible for Joseph Smith's story to be anything but a lie.

Max
05-05-2009, 04:38 PM
No but a very good reason to say its false is that the Canon is closed, so it cant be scripture. If its not scripture...who, frankly, cares :huh:
I agree, that is a perfect reason to give when asked why you dont believe.

Max
05-05-2009, 04:38 PM
If you believe in what the bible says it's impossible for Joseph Smith's story to be anything but a lie.
Another perfect reason to believe the story is false.

Neezar
05-05-2009, 04:41 PM
Max is agreeing with Dave. Anyone hear thunder? :unsure-1:

Miss Foxy
05-05-2009, 04:47 PM
Max is agreeing with Dave. Anyone hear thunder? :unsure-1:
Yeah, but whats going to happen is Dave will come along and post before seeing that Max is agreeing with him and will start a whole new long debate! Someone will have to remind Dave that Max agreed with him and Dave will post the little ashamed smiley and say he is acting like a hormonal woman. Or he will reply to my post with a mad face!! :laugh:

Max
05-05-2009, 04:49 PM
Max is agreeing with Dave. Anyone hear thunder? :unsure-1:
there are a lot of things I agree with Dave about, MMA is not usually one of them though.

Crisco
05-05-2009, 04:51 PM
there are a lot of things I agree with Dave about, MMA is not usually one of them though.

Few people agree with Dave in terms of MMA :laugh:

Tyburn
05-05-2009, 05:49 PM
Yeah, but whats going to happen is Dave will come along and post before seeing that Max is agreeing with him and will start a whole new long debate! Someone will have to remind Dave that Max agreed with him and Dave will post the little ashamed smiley and say he is acting like a hormonal woman. Or he will reply to my post with a mad face!! :laugh:
:mellow: I can hear you, you know :laugh:

Tyburn
05-05-2009, 05:50 PM
Few people agree with Dave in terms of MMA :laugh:
Few people can keep up with me Crisco...I struggle myself sometimes :blink:

:laugh:

Crisco
05-05-2009, 06:02 PM
Few people can keep up with me Crisco...I struggle myself sometimes :blink:

:laugh:

You just have terribly high standards mate.

Tyburn
05-05-2009, 06:41 PM
You just have terribly high standards mate.
:laugh: I'm hard to please...tiz true :laugh:

Crisco
05-05-2009, 07:13 PM
:laugh: I'm hard to please...tiz true :laugh:

That's what she said

eric84
07-16-2009, 11:48 PM
No but a very good reason to say its false is that the Canon is closed, so it cant be scripture. If its not scripture...who, frankly, cares :huh:

Who says it's closed? You? And you can quote scripture about not adding or taking away, but you have to look at the context. There are scriptures cited before the new testament saying that, yet you count the New Testament as canon, so their goes that argument. I'm tired of hearing people say there can't be anything besides the Bible when the Bible itself wasn't even compiled till a few centuries AFTER it was written. Is the Bible the word of God, I believe so and study from the Bible alot(and I'm not just saying that). But the so called Biblical Teaching of closed canon is completely unscriptural. Who are we to say God won't continue to talk to us? Did he stop with the 10 Commandments? Did he teach something different to Noah than he did to Moses? God continues to talk throughout all time, he is the same yesterday today and forever, and it's not up to us to decide when he will stop talking.

Tyburn
07-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Who says it's closed? You? And you can quote scripture about not adding or taking away, but you have to look at the context. There are scriptures cited before the new testament saying that, yet you count the New Testament as canon, so their goes that argument. I'm tired of hearing people say there can't be anything besides the Bible when the Bible itself wasn't even compiled till a few centuries AFTER it was written. Is the Bible the word of God, I believe so and study from the Bible alot(and I'm not just saying that). But the so called Biblical Teaching of closed canon is completely unscriptural. Who are we to say God won't continue to talk to us? Did he stop with the 10 Commandments? Did he teach something different to Noah than he did to Moses? God continues to talk throughout all time, he is the same yesterday today and forever, and it's not up to us to decide when he will stop talking.
The Christian Church closed the Cannon a long time ago.

No, there is no more scripture then we already have.

There might be inspirational and GODly pieces of writing...but the WORD is complete. The message of the Gospel is complete. There is no need for any further additions to scripture.

GOD still talks to us, and he can use anything to talk to us. But Scripture is the very word of GOD. That is Complete. Finished. He has outlined everything from Genesis through the law to Revelation by way of salvation. There is no more GOD breathed Scripture.

Some people would argue the Church missed or neglected to put in some things that were scripture during the formation of the cannon...but if you trust GOD, then you know he doesnt make mistakes like that.

eric84
07-17-2009, 01:01 AM
Of course God doesn't make mistakes, men do. Who wrote the Bible? Who compiled the Bible? Exactly. The jews were under the same precept that they already had EVERYTHING they needed in the Old Testament, and of course they were wrong. As far as the "Christian Church" that closed the canon, who is the Christian Church? Who gave them that authority? Only God can close it, not men, and NOWHERE has God said he won't continue to speak. It's the so called "Christians" that try to put words in God's mouth.

Tyburn
07-17-2009, 01:33 AM
Of course God doesn't make mistakes, men do. Who wrote the Bible? Who compiled the Bible? Exactly. The jews were under the same precept that they already had EVERYTHING they needed in the Old Testament, and of course they were wrong. As far as the "Christian Church" that closed the canon, who is the Christian Church? Who gave them that authority? Only God can close it, not men, and NOWHERE has God said he won't continue to speak. It's the so called "Christians" that try to put words in God's mouth.
Who wrote the Book of Mormon????

Men didnt write the Bible. GOD wrote the Bible through those Men. Thats what makes Scripture the LITERAL WORD of GOD. Who compiled the Bible? GOD compiled the Bible through the Roman Catholic Church.

Who closed the Cannon? GOD did right at the end of the book of Revelation.

Those who are Christian go off the Cannonized Bible, they dont take away books, they dont add books.

YOU add books. Revelation states specifically NOT to add to the Scripture...its one of the most clear points of the whole Bible.

As for the Jews...they simply had a lack of revelation at the time. They arent wrong, simply not complete...and all the Prophets pointed to Christ, to fortell that there was an addition to the Cannon...which Prophet fortold there would be a third Testament??? I dont remember them talking about a post-christ Prophet who says NOTHING that restores the message of the Gospel.

The message of the Gospel is Christ (not whether he went to the United States of America on some kinda sabbatical!) Thats not "restoration" Restoration is to return something that was lost...not to build an extention! THATS what Mormonism has done. Its not replaced the tiles off a worn out gospel..its built a whole conservatory...and called that Restoration.

Not even the Council would accept that an Extention on a completely different and wholly unneccassery tale, that has absolutely NO bearing on the Gospel whatsoever, doesnt change the message, doesnt add clarity to the message..is Restoration. Other then the mention of the name Jesus Christ...what connects The Book of Mormon to the Bible exactly??

Nothing.

Its a fantastic story...and EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE, it has NO bearing on the central theme of the Gospel AT ALL. Is it important what places Christ visited?? does it change anything?? No it does not. It doesnt restore anything because there is nothing to restore in a perfect artical!

So read and believe it as truth if you wish....but to put it on the same level as Scripture is wholly wrong. The Book of Mormon should be filed away in the Apokrapha along with all the other strange and fanstastic tales...some of which are true, some of which are lies, all of which claim to be christian scripture, none of which are of any importance whatsoever.

Sorry to be blunt to the point of offensive. :unsure-1:

eric84
07-17-2009, 04:36 PM
Who wrote the Book of Mormon????

Men didnt write the Bible. GOD wrote the Bible through those Men. Thats what makes Scripture the LITERAL WORD of GOD. Who compiled the Bible? GOD compiled the Bible through the Roman Catholic Church.

Who closed the Cannon? GOD did right at the end of the book of Revelation.

Those who are Christian go off the Cannonized Bible, they dont take away books, they dont add books.

YOU add books. Revelation states specifically NOT to add to the Scripture...its one of the most clear points of the whole Bible.

As for the Jews...they simply had a lack of revelation at the time. They arent wrong, simply not complete...and all the Prophets pointed to Christ, to fortell that there was an addition to the Cannon...which Prophet fortold there would be a third Testament??? I dont remember them talking about a post-christ Prophet who says NOTHING that restores the message of the Gospel.

The message of the Gospel is Christ (not whether he went to the United States of America on some kinda sabbatical!) Thats not "restoration" Restoration is to return something that was lost...not to build an extention! THATS what Mormonism has done. Its not replaced the tiles off a worn out gospel..its built a whole conservatory...and called that Restoration.

Not even the Council would accept that an Extention on a completely different and wholly unneccassery tale, that has absolutely NO bearing on the Gospel whatsoever, doesnt change the message, doesnt add clarity to the message..is Restoration. Other then the mention of the name Jesus Christ...what connects The Book of Mormon to the Bible exactly??

Nothing.

Its a fantastic story...and EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE, it has NO bearing on the central theme of the Gospel AT ALL. Is it important what places Christ visited?? does it change anything?? No it does not. It doesnt restore anything because there is nothing to restore in a perfect artical!

So read and believe it as truth if you wish....but to put it on the same level as Scripture is wholly wrong. The Book of Mormon should be filed away in the Apokrapha along with all the other strange and fanstastic tales...some of which are true, some of which are lies, all of which claim to be christian scripture, none of which are of any importance whatsoever.

Sorry to be blunt to the point of offensive. :unsure-1:

Alot of stuff, so I'm going to respond to each paragraph one at a time.

1- God inspired men to write the Bible, but men and still men. If the Bible is so infallible, why are there so many versions that have different meanings? Why are there things that people claim contradict? The Catholic church compiled the Bible, and today they use a different one than most other christian denominations, so should we change to theirs?

2 - God never closed the canon, the Book of revelations was written LONG before the Bible was compiled and if you actual read it in context, it's referring to that specific book only.

3 - Those that are Christians huh. So the followers of Christ weren't Christians? They didn't go off the Bible(they didn't have it). And who determines the canonized, the Catholic Church? I'm not here to bash the Catholics, there are alot of very good people in their church, but personally I don't trust anything the church has done. There has been a very long history of deceit and wickedness in the leadership. Although I would say today they are much better :)

4 - I skipped a few paragraphs that seemed like rambling. What connects the Book of Mormon to the Bible? For one, God never said it had to connect to be his word, he can talk anytime he wants wherever he wants. For 2, if you have read it you would know that most of the book is based around prophecies and the coming of Christ. The Gospel is preached in the Book of Mormon that helps support the Bible.

Please stop mentioned the "council" or the "Church", those really have no meaning. If you want to go that route, then you would be saying the Catholic church is led by God, and its clearly obvious from their doctrines they are nothing of the sort.

Play The Man
07-17-2009, 05:47 PM
Who wrote the Book of Mormon????

Solomon Spalding

Crisco
07-17-2009, 06:20 PM
Solomon Spalding

ZING!

Smith was a charlatan. Nothing more.


no offense...

Tyburn
07-17-2009, 06:45 PM
Alot of stuff, so I'm going to respond to each paragraph one at a time.

1- God inspired men to write the Bible, but men and still men. If the Bible is so infallible, why are there so many versions that have different meanings? Why are there things that people claim contradict? The Catholic church compiled the Bible, and today they use a different one than most other christian denominations, so should we change to theirs?

2 - God never closed the canon, the Book of revelations was written LONG before the Bible was compiled and if you actual read it in context, it's referring to that specific book only.

3 - Those that are Christians huh. So the followers of Christ weren't Christians? They didn't go off the Bible(they didn't have it). And who determines the canonized, the Catholic Church? I'm not here to bash the Catholics, there are alot of very good people in their church, but personally I don't trust anything the church has done. There has been a very long history of deceit and wickedness in the leadership. Although I would say today they are much better :)

4 - I skipped a few paragraphs that seemed like rambling. What connects the Book of Mormon to the Bible? For one, God never said it had to connect to be his word, he can talk anytime he wants wherever he wants. For 2, if you have read it you would know that most of the book is based around prophecies and the coming of Christ. The Gospel is preached in the Book of Mormon that helps support the Bible.

5 - Please stop mentioned the "council" or the "Church", those really have no meaning. If you want to go that route, then you would be saying the Catholic church is led by God, and its clearly obvious from their doctrines they are nothing of the sort.
1) I accidently explained the missnomer about the different versions of the Bible in the other thread. Please forgive that Error. Briefly I shall summerize again. The Canon is made up of Two parts, the Jewish Canon, and the Roman Canon. The Romans took the Jewish Canon whole. Later, after the compilation of the Roman Canon, the Jews had a reformational council and they removed some of the old testament books.

The Original books of the old testament are now only to be found in the Roman Bible which removed the books that the Jews changed their minds about, but kept them printed as a kinda resource called "The Apokrapha"

The Protestants decided that if the Jews had gotten rid of some old testament books, they should get rid of the same ones. Hence no Apokrapha.

The complete original canon includes the Apokrapha as part of the Old Testament, approved by the Jews. Now The problem Rome had is, why would the Jews wish to remove books AFTER being cannonized for ages? Do we believe that they chose the Canon wrongly in the first place??? Did GOD not inspire them to make the right choice first time round?? The repuccusions of that is that IF you believe that to be the case...you must then say that perhaps GOD didnt inspire Rome correctly either.

Its about Trust. I for one Trust the Jews got it right first time round, and that Rome got it right. Therefore I would say that The Apokrapha is almost certainly scripture..but out of respect to the Jews who changed their mind, I would simply say it was inspired by GOD...not written by Him.

The Bible never conradicts itself. But the Bible doesnt give a correct interpretation either. Therefore different people dissagree over context, literallaity, and pragmatics....most Denominations simply over stress a certain event, or issue. They simply make a focal point in the text because it speaks to them very personally.

2) Rome closed the Canon, acting under divine influence. Rome was given the task of discerning what was written by GOD, and what was only Inspired...or something, just a load of popycot.

There is no need for the Canon to remain open. We know the full story already. Creation to the Law, The Law to Israel, Israel to the apokrapha The Apokrapha to Christ, Christ to the Gospel, The Gospel to the Early Church, The Early Church to Rome, Rome to the End Times.

What more do we need to know???

What is there in your addition that changes any of that???
What is there is your addition that restores anything in that??
What is there in your addition that effects the Gospel at all??

Is your addition of any importance?
Does it being true or false matter to mans salvation??

So all its only a nice story, that may or may not be true, written by a GODly man?

3) you make a good point. The Early Church didnt have a second Canon (they did have the apokrapha, because it was still part of the old testament at that time) I would say that there were many false believifs in the Early Church...I would say billions of letters and documents were considered, by accident, and wrongly, as scriptures. By the Time of Rome, the Early Church was divided into little sects.

You are also right that the Roman Church has abused her power and status and had done very wicked things indeed.

The question though is not "Did the Romans get the Canon right" the Question happens to be "Do you Trust that GOD would safeguard his Canon or not?" If you believe that GOD compiled the Bible and is far to Great to let Rome stuff it up...you must conceed that Rome got it right. If you dont believe GOD compiled the Bible...then you may say Rome probably got it wrong...in which case, should you not completely abandon ALL the new testament completely?

Even those who most hate Rome, believe that what she compiled was the True and Complete Word of GOD.

4) I've been preaching the Gospel of Christ on this Forum to you. Does that make my posts Scripture? You have to have some authority decide...otherwise you just end up with everyone doing exactly what they want, believeing exactly what they want. Going on the Power of the Spirit without Guidence from a trusted and confirmed source is dangerous...thats how heretics manage to gain entry.

The major issue is that Christianity believes its Canon to be Closed. Therefore there is no room, nor no need, for the book of Mormon, regardless of what it says. It cant be Scripture whether true or not, because the Canon has been closed for at least One Thousand Years.

The most it can be considered is a resource to the Bible by a Saint. Thats really all that it can be. If it was Theological, then it could be considered as an inspire part of Theologia. If its Historical, then it could be considered as an inspired part of The Apokrapha.

The Book of Mormon is supposed to give an Historical account of an Israeli Tribe settling in America...no? Therefore it is claiming to be Historical, therefore its Apokraphal. Apokraphal texts are also known to heavily rely on Angelic Host and use lots of symbolism. Crystals and Tablets are not out of place in the Apokrapha.

Try to understand; I am not saying The Book of Mormon is lies. I am ONLY saying it CANNOT be Scripture. If you believe it to be True, that is fine, so long as you DO NOT hold it to be Scripture.

5) They and the majority of Christian Protestants would dissagree. How can you call the people who were given the task of compiling the Gospels, not Christian? GOD now lets the heathen decide what HIS true Word is???

With all due respect...you dont see the Roman Catholics adding all the texts of Peter, their Patron into the Bible do you?? The Roman Church is bound by the same principles found in the Bible. You are judging Her, by standard she seemingly set for herself.

There is also a difference between what Rome says, and what Roman Catholics do :ninja:

eric84
07-17-2009, 09:09 PM
1) I accidently explained the missnomer about the different versions of the Bible in the other thread. Please forgive that Error. Briefly I shall summerize again. The Canon is made up of Two parts, the Jewish Canon, and the Roman Canon. The Romans took the Jewish Canon whole. Later, after the compilation of the Roman Canon, the Jews had a reformational council and they removed some of the old testament books.

The Original books of the old testament are now only to be found in the Roman Bible which removed the books that the Jews changed their minds about, but kept them printed as a kinda resource called "The Apokrapha"

The Protestants decided that if the Jews had gotten rid of some old testament books, they should get rid of the same ones. Hence no Apokrapha.

The complete original canon includes the Apokrapha as part of the Old Testament, approved by the Jews. Now The problem Rome had is, why would the Jews wish to remove books AFTER being cannonized for ages? Do we believe that they chose the Canon wrongly in the first place??? Did GOD not inspire them to make the right choice first time round?? The repuccusions of that is that IF you believe that to be the case...you must then say that perhaps GOD didnt inspire Rome correctly either.

Its about Trust. I for one Trust the Jews got it right first time round, and that Rome got it right. Therefore I would say that The Apokrapha is almost certainly scripture..but out of respect to the Jews who changed their mind, I would simply say it was inspired by GOD...not written by Him.

The Bible never conradicts itself. But the Bible doesnt give a correct interpretation either. Therefore different people dissagree over context, literallaity, and pragmatics....most Denominations simply over stress a certain event, or issue. They simply make a focal point in the text because it speaks to them very personally.

2) Rome closed the Canon, acting under divine influence. Rome was given the task of discerning what was written by GOD, and what was only Inspired...or something, just a load of popycot.

There is no need for the Canon to remain open. We know the full story already. Creation to the Law, The Law to Israel, Israel to the apokrapha The Apokrapha to Christ, Christ to the Gospel, The Gospel to the Early Church, The Early Church to Rome, Rome to the End Times.

What more do we need to know???

What is there in your addition that changes any of that???
What is there is your addition that restores anything in that??
What is there in your addition that effects the Gospel at all??

Is your addition of any importance?
Does it being true or false matter to mans salvation??

So all its only a nice story, that may or may not be true, written by a GODly man?

3) you make a good point. The Early Church didnt have a second Canon (they did have the apokrapha, because it was still part of the old testament at that time) I would say that there were many false believifs in the Early Church...I would say billions of letters and documents were considered, by accident, and wrongly, as scriptures. By the Time of Rome, the Early Church was divided into little sects.

You are also right that the Roman Church has abused her power and status and had done very wicked things indeed.

The question though is not "Did the Romans get the Canon right" the Question happens to be "Do you Trust that GOD would safeguard his Canon or not?" If you believe that GOD compiled the Bible and is far to Great to let Rome stuff it up...you must conceed that Rome got it right. If you dont believe GOD compiled the Bible...then you may say Rome probably got it wrong...in which case, should you not completely abandon ALL the new testament completely?

Even those who most hate Rome, believe that what she compiled was the True and Complete Word of GOD.

4) I've been preaching the Gospel of Christ on this Forum to you. Does that make my posts Scripture? You have to have some authority decide...otherwise you just end up with everyone doing exactly what they want, believeing exactly what they want. Going on the Power of the Spirit without Guidence from a trusted and confirmed source is dangerous...thats how heretics manage to gain entry.

The major issue is that Christianity believes its Canon to be Closed. Therefore there is no room, nor no need, for the book of Mormon, regardless of what it says. It cant be Scripture whether true or not, because the Canon has been closed for at least One Thousand Years.

The most it can be considered is a resource to the Bible by a Saint. Thats really all that it can be. If it was Theological, then it could be considered as an inspire part of Theologia. If its Historical, then it could be considered as an inspired part of The Apokrapha.

The Book of Mormon is supposed to give an Historical account of an Israeli Tribe settling in America...no? Therefore it is claiming to be Historical, therefore its Apokraphal. Apokraphal texts are also known to heavily rely on Angelic Host and use lots of symbolism. Crystals and Tablets are not out of place in the Apokrapha.

Try to understand; I am not saying The Book of Mormon is lies. I am ONLY saying it CANNOT be Scripture. If you believe it to be True, that is fine, so long as you DO NOT hold it to be Scripture.

5) They and the majority of Christian Protestants would dissagree. How can you call the people who were given the task of compiling the Gospels, not Christian? GOD now lets the heathen decide what HIS true Word is???

With all due respect...you dont see the Roman Catholics adding all the texts of Peter, their Patron into the Bible do you?? The Roman Church is bound by the same principles found in the Bible. You are judging Her, by standard she seemingly set for herself.

There is also a difference between what Rome says, and what Roman Catholics do :ninja:

1 - I still believe God inspired men, he didn't write any of it himself(I mean he wrote the 10 commandments, but not the actual writing in the original manuscripts that were compiled in the books, make sense?).

2 - I believe INSPIRED men wrote their books. Later on the Catholic Church compiled them together, and they could have been inspired which books to put in, or maybe not. What matters is that I believe the books to be pretty much intact, with a few errors here and there. I don't see how that can't be comprehended....
"What more do we need to know???". Who are we to decide that? The Bible provides alot of valuable information, no doubt. But why wouldn't God continue to talk to us today with issues at hand now? Yes, there is a lot of prophecy in the Bible, but it doesn't cover everything.

3 - I believe God steps in at certain times for his own certain reasons, and that through divine inspiration has kept the Bible pretty intact. But I also believe he allows men to act according to themselves. I believe the Bible is true, but I also make sure I'm guided by God, he won't ever lead me astray.

4 - I completely agree with the Authority comment you made. Christ gave authority to his apostles, and i don't believe that power was passed on to the Catholic Church. Thus the Mormon church calls it a restoration, because that Authority was brought back. I base my guidance on the spirit from the ONLY divine source, and that is God. I trust him much more than I trust the Bible.
So "Christianity" closed it's canon. Once again, I don't base my beliefs off of other people, but from God.

5 - I didn't mean all them were heathens, heh. I am sure many of them were very righteous men with good intentions, and they did alot of good with compiling the Bible. But they are still men, and just looking around today all the "Christians" who use God to gain money/popularity/power/fame, it's easy to see how corruptable we are. It goes back to if I believe the bible was put together by God or man, and I go with man, inspired by God.

It also appears we hijacked this thread, I'd love to continue somewhere else if you would like.

Play The Man
07-17-2009, 10:24 PM
I opened a new thread on Mormonism/LDS. Perhaps this thread can go back to discussion of Fedor being a Christian?

Vizion
07-17-2009, 10:27 PM
So yea, Fedor is a Christian...not even one alleluia....:unsure-1:

Tyburn
07-17-2009, 10:30 PM
1 - I still believe God inspired men, he didn't write any of it himself(I mean he wrote the 10 commandments, but not the actual writing in the original manuscripts that were compiled in the books, make sense?).

2 - I believe INSPIRED men wrote their books. Later on the Catholic Church compiled them together, and they could have been inspired which books to put in, or maybe not. What matters is that I believe the books to be pretty much intact, with a few errors here and there. I don't see how that can't be comprehended....
"What more do we need to know???". Who are we to decide that? The Bible provides alot of valuable information, no doubt. But why wouldn't God continue to talk to us today with issues at hand now? Yes, there is a lot of prophecy in the Bible, but it doesn't cover everything.

3 - I believe God steps in at certain times for his own certain reasons, and that through divine inspiration has kept the Bible pretty intact. But I also believe he allows men to act according to themselves. I believe the Bible is true, but I also make sure I'm guided by God, he won't ever lead me astray.

4 - I completely agree with the Authority comment you made. Christ gave authority to his apostles, and i don't believe that power was passed on to the Catholic Church. Thus the Mormon church calls it a restoration, because that Authority was brought back. I base my guidance on the spirit from the ONLY divine source, and that is God. I trust him much more than I trust the Bible.
So "Christianity" closed it's canon. Once again, I don't base my beliefs off of other people, but from God.

5 - I didn't mean all them were heathens, heh. I am sure many of them were very righteous men with good intentions, and they did alot of good with compiling the Bible. But they are still men, and just looking around today all the "Christians" who use God to gain money/popularity/power/fame, it's easy to see how corruptable we are. It goes back to if I believe the bible was put together by God or man, and I go with man, inspired by God.

It also appears we hijacked this thread, I'd love to continue somewhere else if you would like.
Good ideal. Let us go and continue in PTMs new thread :w00t: :laugh: